The Root’s Confab and Random Thoughts About Talking About Race
by Latoya Peterson
After I hit up the AAA conference on race, I had to dash over to the Root’s offices to make a 4 PM podcast. Natalie Hopkinson had kindly invited me to join them on The Confab, The Root’s Podcast. Here’s the description:
This week on The Confab: Why is Haiti so unlucky? How has new media impacted earthquake relief efforts? And, will someone tell Pat Robertson to please shut up? Plus, the ever-evolving state of race? How possible is it to have a productive discussion. Join The Root’s media and culture critic Natalie Hopkinson as she talks with managing editor Joel Dreyfuss, Jesse Washington of the Associated Press, Natalie Y. Moore from Chicago Public Radio and Racialicious’ Latoya Peterson.
You can listen to the Confab here. Regular readers and listeners to ATR will notice that I start to get a bit frustrated midway through. While I enjoy Natalie Hopkinson’s work, and found Jesse Washington a nice and funny guy, it can be challenging – particularly in a radio/television format – to break down complex ideas about race in a few seconds without getting cut off.
Sometimes, this is just the medium. I was asked by Jesse Washington who are white professional anti-racists outside of Tim Wise, and I couldn’t think of any off the top of my head. I referred to Nezua, the Unapologetic Mexican as someone who had more experience dealing with white anti-racists, but it came out wrong. It sounded like I was saying “Nez knows all the white people” when really, I was thinking about this video that he made for News with Nezua (transcript here):
News With Nezua | The White Professional Anti-Racist from nezua on Vimeo.
(Also, see what happens on Nez’s site when he posts this video, and the reaction from a “White Professional Anti-Racist”.)
So there’s that. But Washington also asked me if I was an “anti racist activist” which actually gave me some pause.This was combined with some of the comments on the Confab – that being born black automatically means you know everything you need to know about race, or how since white people are not the ones knowledgeable about racism, they need to be leading conversations on it, or the lack of thought that minority groups have toward each other’s struggles. There were just so many things that there wasn’t enough time to deconstruct – any one of those questions/statements could have been a whole podcast.
Natalie had brought up an example of what she thought a transformative racial conversation was – she talked about discussing race with a white man, and he went home in tears. But to me, making white people feel guilty or confused isn’t the point of racial conversation. Unless we are going to float our way to equality on rivers of white tears, I am not interesting in making people feel bad or guilty for no apparent reason or goal. (Besides, simmering guilt can lead to resentment, but that’s another post entirely.) But then again, that ties up into other ideas. My activism generally focuses on people of color and cross cultural activism. Before that, I was brought up black nationalism (in a cultural and economic sense) and black separatism. My experiences lead me to believe that the best way to impact racial change is through organizing with other people of color. We are at our strongest when we stand in unity, and history is full of references to how our movements informed each other and built upon each other. Those who are the most impacted by a social ill are the ones who will fight the longest and the strongest to change it. While shifting the majority opinion is a part of that, reaching some form of consensus between a marginalized group and a dominant group almost never happens. But, as time has passed, we’ve (collectively, as POC) forgotten what kind of power there is in standing together, preferring to silo in our own spaces. We have internalized the racism taught to us and allowed the dominant culture to pit us against each other. So, my focus is always going to be on uniting the pieces of communities that want this cross cultural connection.
What about white people (as Washington asked)? In my opinion, white people will be fine. As I mentioned in the podcast, the system is designed to benefit whites to the detriment of other groups. So, just as heterosexuals can go through their entire lifetimes and never have to think about the equality and struggle of homosexuals, white people do not need to think about or engage critically with race to be fine. Are there white people invested in anti-racism? Yes, for various reasons. However, I strongly believe people cannot receive messages until they are ready for them. Racialicious – and our particular type of racial discussion – is not for everyone. It’s not for people who still question white privilege, it’s not for people who believe that stating they are a white ally means they can then police POC on their tone and tactics for organizing, it is not a space for people who demand to be “taught” anti-racism in their way to their liking. (It is also not for people of color who do not care to organize with other groups, or POC would would seek to deny those of us with a different sexual orientation or gender identification.) And I’m fine with that. To solve the issues of race in this country, a lot of things have to happen in tandem. Someone needs to have the 101 conversations, some one needs to have the 303 conversations. Someone needs to try to work out the interpersonal aspects of racism, and someone needs to tackle structural racism. There is a lot of work to be done, so there is no one right answer.
But, in a radio format, it’s hard to say something like this without being cut off or interrupted. So it doesn’t get said, and I’m back to working on soundbytes.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Nathalie wrote:
“My experiences lead me to believe that the best way to impact racial change is through organizing with other people of color. We are at our strongest when we stand in unity (…)”
This is a vision I share.
“But, in a radio format, it’s hard to say something like this without being cut off or interrupted. So it doesn’t get said, and I’m back to working on soundbytes.”
I understand your frustration; but on the other using the net allow the listener–and in this case the reader–to keep your message intact while sharing it with others for food for thought… You still reach people, you make them think, and something good can come out of that and so on. I hope you aren’t discouraged…
Posted 28 Jan 2010 at 4:28 pm ¶
CG wrote:
|…making white people feel guilty or confused isn’t the point of racial conversation.|
True, but sometimes it’s a revelatory outcome. By the way, what comes after resentment? I look forward to reading that post.
|…just as heterosexuals can go through their entire lifetimes and never have to think about the equality and struggle of homosexuals, white people do not need to think about or engage critically with race to be fine. |
OK–but that’s not necessarily a good thing, is it? That is, are we all better off if one group (or even a segment of such a large group) remains ignorant? I don’t think so. Can anti-racist (or anti-homophobic) activism be effective without education, coalition building, and some uncomfortable cross-cultural dialogue? Of course, racists (and homophobes) would rather not think or talk about the issue, but if activists don’t call them out or form alliances with sympathetic folks, then we don’t get very far in resolving the biggest problems.
“What about white people?” MLK’s letter from that jail in Birmingham wasn’t addressed to people of color. American history is dotted with John Browns and Angelina Grimkés, and there’s always room for more. Thanks for posting Nezua’s video.
Posted 28 Jan 2010 at 7:27 pm ¶
Natalie Hopkinson wrote:
Hey LaToya I really enjoyed hearing your comments on the podcast. I think you misunderstood my comments about my white classmate crying. That was not the point of the example. The point was he grew emotional because he had never considered his whiteness before as an issue or a cause of concern. For all his life up until that point, he was the default “American.” “normal.” For those of us whom society gives no choice but to recognize our race, every day, the conversation is not nearly as jarring or strange. That is why I think it is even more bigger deal for white people to join the conversation on race. They have a lot more catching up to do.
I hear you on soundbytes. But I see the medium as a space for dialogue versus a lecture or monologue, so it is always a tricky balance. You shared so much great info. I hope to work with you again soon.
Posted 28 Jan 2010 at 7:38 pm ¶
nezua wrote:
Thank you, LaToya, for shouting out. I understood where you were going, though I agree, it came out funny! What a shock people might have if they came to my site looking for White Anti-Racist Resources! And what a challenging format that multiple person radio thing is. I’m afraid I’d either be run over, or become some ultra-speed monstertalker in order just to be heard. I totally understood your frustration. You rock, as always, and we know where it’s at.
Posted 28 Jan 2010 at 8:11 pm ¶
KE wrote:
Just listened to The Confab you linked to. It sounded to me like you were getting frustrated more with Jesse Washington’s line of questioning and the dismissive tone both Jesse and Natalie Hopkinson were taking toward the AAA conference – than any lack or limitation of time you had to address issues. In fact, the majority of the broadcast was you defending your position of not caring to include white people in a real way into the conversation on race. Clearly Jesse and Natalie had a difference of opinion with you on that – not sure that I didn’t agree with them as well, but you defended your position fairly well. In regards to Nezua, that’s a pretty ignorant video you posted. Not sure that it really moves the ball forward, in any way. During the broadcast you also clearly tried to fudge your lack of knowledge about white anti-racists by acting as if Nezua had “resources” on his site about these white anti-racists. You were definitely better off just saying you couldn’t think of anyone besides Tim Wise.
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 1:58 am ¶
karen wrote:
Thanks for the link to Nezua’s video. I had watched it a short while ago, but hadn’t gone back to read the comments lately. Aside from the derailing, there’s some great stuff there to think about. I’m especially interested in what Nezua was saying about listening and body language.
I haven’t listened to the Confab link yet, but from what you experienced, it makes me really glad we get to hear you on ATR podcasts where there is space and time for nuanced explanations.
Also, love this: “To solve the issues of race in this country, a lot of things have to happen in tandem.”
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 10:50 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@KE –
Not so much. The AAA conference was interesting – I was just a little blown that someone who admitted to skipping the opening panel would still diss what he thought happened. (Notice also, we didn’t have time to loop back into what was actually said and recommended, which will probably be another post here.)
In fact, the majority of the broadcast was you defending your position of not caring to include white people in a real way into the conversation on race.
I’m not clear here. How is saying “white people should not lead conversations on race” the same as “white people should not participate in any real way?” These things are very different. I was kind of shocked when Jesse said that because I have been to many, many different Congressional events, and unless they are sponsored by the CBC, they are generally panels of white experts with one or two minorities.
This conference was interesting because the panelist actually represented large cross sections of America – but interestingly, had very different ideologies. There where white people on the panels here as well – but it was maybe two or three out of twenty speakers. And I also found it interesting that Washington didn’t mention the indigenous, desi, and Latinas on the panels, who are underrepresented in our racial conversation.
And, as I mentioned in the podcast, my focus has always been on POC writers, thinkers, and organizing. Those are the building blocks. So when conversations come up, I try to steer people toward those kinds of references so that they get more play. I am aware of more people outside of Tim Wise, but what you say on air more or less becomes an endorsement. I’ve learned to become very careful with what I say, because for some people, all publicity is good publicity.
@Natalie –
Hey!
Yes, I hear you on how radio is a space for dialogue. The issue is just getting everyone on the same page. Sometimes you can find something that is awesome and explains exactly what you want to convey in a few words. Carmen often quotes a Julian Bond talking about color blindness, which is very succinct. It is something to the effect of “To say you are color blind is to be blind to the consequences of being the wrong color in America.” (Clearly, she quotes this more than I do, so she’s got the wording down.) But that can kind of quickly reshift the conversation without taking up tons of airtime.
Or another easy one is the “post-racial” thing. If someone is asking why we still focus on race in “post racial america”, the easy (and hopefully thought provoking) answer is that we weren’t aiming to be post-racial. We were aiming to be post-racism, which hasn’t happened yet.
But it is hard when trying to condense a huge topic – like why discussions of race have to broaden in order to get the full scope of the problem – into a few seconds on air.
But I suppose, as with all things, one gets better with more practice.
(Also, to the readers – Natalie Hopkinson co-wrote a great book called Deconstructing Tyrone, which will well worth a read. You’ll probably see her on here again when her book on DC go-go comes out.)
@Nez –
I’m afraid I’d either be run over, or become some ultra-speed monstertalker in order just to be heard.
That’s what I was doing! So frustrating. I am a fast talker by nature, so it gets really bad when I’m not consciously thinking about it.
@CG –
Good comments.
True, but sometimes it’s a revelatory outcome. By the way, what comes after resentment? I look forward to reading that post.
Actually, it depends a lot. Sometimes people let guilt eat them up to the point of conscious avoidance of all things race, sometimes it’s a breakthrough, and sometimes they join white nationalist groups. I’ll write about that later.
OK–but that’s not necessarily a good thing, is it?
No, it isn’t. But even as we have seen on this board, a lot of people just aren’t that invested in the struggles of “others.”
MLK’s letter from that jail in Birmingham wasn’t addressed to people of color.
Nope. But how were they treating him and what were they saying to prompt him to write such a letter? I don’t believe in ignoring the mainstream. But I do believe that the people who will fight the longest and the strongest are the ones most deeply affected. We need allies to the struggle, in general, but history is pretty clear in showing that wide scale change (and change that is sustained) came from those most affected.
@Nathalie –
I’m not discouraged – it’s just funny that on the panel I was on at AA, I complained a bit about how everything has to be distilled down into soundbytes, but at the same time, it’s kind of inescapable. The way I’ve watched talking points manipulated makes me hate the whole process…but it is also easy to forget they are a bedrock of effective communication.
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 10:57 am ¶
Nora wrote:
@Latoya Peterson I agree with you that “history is pretty clear in showing that wide scale change (and change that is sustained) came from those most affected,” but do you have some ideas on how people may participate in change for a group they were not born into? While they may have a lot of catching up to do, I know a few white people who would like to become more involved in activism and making this country post-racism, but feel they can’t because they don’t belong to the group. I feel the same sort of situation occurs when straight people want to fight for their gay friends to get married — that they’d love to be more involved but feel they can’t because they are not gay. Is participation okay, just not leadership in the movement?
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 11:55 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Nora –
Yes. There are many many ways, the first of which is simply being educated on the issue. Learning about what is going on helps to spot and understand how oppression forms and manifests.
Two, stay in touch with (but do not co-opt) the community. Read media outlets geared toward said group, but don’t feel like you can swagger in and tell everyone how to solve their problems. (This happens to us monthly). Get a feel for what is being discussed, and what is happening.
Three, get involved with organizations/groups that are agitating for change. Many of our campaigns require numbers – that’s where (I personally think) allies can help most. Show up for hearings pride paradise, rallies, etc. And ask said organizations if they need logistical or administrative help before events or mailings. Write letters and call Congressional representatives. Recommend books to your friends written by marginalized authors. Support targeted media (including books, movies, television shows, film fests). Shop consciously to support minority businesses.
There are lots of ways to get involved that will all add up to a very large difference.
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 1:19 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
@CG
I think white guilt and white resentment are two ends of a pendulum. If white people are guilty, they will become resentful at being made to feel guilty. Then they feel guilty about feeling resentful. It’s a really negative dynamic.
The only way to escape that dynamic is for them to take a step back, stop centering their own emotions, and think more rationally and dispassionately.
Telling white people firmly but gently that it’s not all about how THEY feel can be very productive. And it’s not just productive for people of color… it’s productive for the white people themselves. The white people who seem most at peace with racial issues are the ones who have successfully detached from the negative dynamic.
Making white people feel guilty is a pointless goal in and of itself. So I agree 100% with Latoya, but for slightly different reasons. Sometimes white people just need to be ignored in order to have a productive conversation. Sometimes you need to tell them to be quiet and stop sucking up so much attention. Other times, depending on context, it’s better to be respectful and polite, if they’re being polite… in some contexts, attacking white people and yelling WHITE PRIVILEGE ALERT just so you can get some “gotcha” points is egotistical, and also unproductive because it still centers white people.
To complicate the issue, I’ve noticed that some people who are guilty of yelling too much at white people are… other white people. Some white people get caught up in an “I’m more righteous and anti-racist than this other person”.
I didn’t listen to all the show but I did hear Jesse Washington saying that Tim Wise was the white Clarence Thomas… what a stupid, flippant thing to say!
Tim Wise is great. I think he’s been too hard on political leftists on a couple of occasions, but other than that, I agree with everything I’ve ever read by him.
I have also NEVER seen Tim Wise going around the internet and making a lot of noise so that people of color will pay a lot of attention to him. He stays focused on addressing and convincing white people. He regularly repeats the fact that people of color make many of his same arguments, it’s just that white media choose to pay attention to him when he says those things because he’s white.
Why not treat white people like adults? When I have a discussion about an adult topic, and participants started talking gently to me and stroking my shoulder and keep repeating “but I’m not trying to attack you”… that’s infantilizing and creepy. Expect white people to meet higher standards, and maybe more of them will meet those standards.
Latoya, I think you got your points across very effectively. Just from my perspective as a news listener, I think it’s an advantage to talk fast, as long as your words are distinct and you’re modulating the stress and pitch enough. Olbermann and Maddow talk incredibly fast too, with great listener comprehension. So does Tavis Smiley ( I’m not a fan of his by any means, just using him as an example of a media figure who talks really, really fast) and Sean Hannity (although he keeps the pitch at a high buzzsaw whine… even if I was a right-winger I don’t know if I could listen to him).
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 2:21 pm ¶
Dr. Ivo Robotnik wrote:
This post is great, especially Latoya and atlasien’s posts. The key to becoming a productive member of acceptance groups is empathy. Empathy means being able to get out of yourself, recognizing that it ISN’T all about you, and trying to understand what people go through even if you’ve never experienced what they have experienced. This goes against some of the most basic of human instinct, but it’s not as if we can’t do it and honestly, people make it harder than it really is.
And I have just come to the realization that I have nothing important to add other than this praise, so I’ll take a hint from Atlasien and just sorta sit back down.
I appreciate the tips on what to do to become more involved. As always, this blog rules.
Posted 29 Jan 2010 at 9:49 pm ¶
MoonCat wrote:
atlasien~that was a very interesting essay you linked to, it gave me a lot to think about. i really liked how you broke down the stages of white guilt and resentment.
re: working through white guilt~i think sitting back and listening and being empathetic is a great way to start. i’ll never truly understand another person’s experience, but i can listen and go on from there. it feels like getting people to be quiet and listen is sometimes the hardest.
Posted 30 Jan 2010 at 4:47 pm ¶
PatrickInBeijing wrote:
@Latoya Speaking as a straight white guy, I value everything you are doing. I learn a lot here, and post much less than I read. I have never felt excluded from the conversation in any way. You (and the other posters) should never be asked to defend yourself around the issue of who leads and who participates. You are all very fair and open to honest discussion (which anyone who visits here can tell).
Funny, isn’t it, how framing can distort positions!! This blog definitely rules.
@Atlasien Agreed. Oops, hope I am not one of those white folks who yell too much at others…… it is difficult.
The third option off the line between guilt and resentment (not sure what I’d have to resent) is to fight for and believe in justice. If I want to live in a just world, it must be just for everyone, not just me. White privilege doesn’t bring me justice. If I have POC who are my brothers and sisters, when they are injured, don’t I cry as well? I truly believe an injury to one is an injury to all.
I am not interested in guilt, I am interested in justice. To achieve justice, I must surrender certain things (everything has a price), but then I gain other things (a more inclusive place in the world, peace, allies in the fight for justice). Personally, I am pretty good at setting up chairs, washing dishes and stuffing envelopes. I can do other things too. Interestingly, when I do those things, I often have more time to listen and learn. (mouth shut, ears open!!)
@all I often thank the moderators, but really, folks who post here, your careful thoughts often soothe my heart when it is troubled, which in this world, is too often. Thanks to everyone who is thoughtfully engaged in struggle!
Posted 31 Jan 2010 at 6:58 am ¶
Mo Louis wrote:
LaToya,
Racism is very subtle. After reading “Oops People of Color Live There” I am convinced that People of Color who consider themselves Black Professionals or being accepted by the White community need to go to http://www.poclt.com for a wake up call.
Posted 10 Feb 2010 at 8:43 am ¶