Whatever Happened to Rufio?: The Non-Asian Ideal of Masculinity

by Guest Contributor CVT


Here’s one of my first Portland (Oregon) memories:

I’m at a bar with two white male friends.  Well, actually, I’m at a Chinese restaurant and bar . . . at a karaoke night. (*1)  With two white male friends.

Anyway.

My friends, in looking for a larger table for us, chat up these three cute(ish) white girls and get them to let us join them.  The inevitable stupid conversations and “the game” ensue.

While this is all going down, I remember thinking to myself – so vividly – “these girls could give a sh– about me here, the Chinese dude.  All the attention is on (name of one of my friends), and they have hardly looked at me.  This sucks.” (*2)  I don’t know if it was reality, or me having a few too many drinks, but I ended up falling deeper and deeper into this little self-pity fest, as the evening progressed.

The thing is,  I’m actually not a bad-looking guy. (*3)  The friends with me were not exactly blessed with movie-star looks.  So what was my problem?

Well, my problem was that I’m Asian.  And male.  An Asian male.  And let’s just say that Asian males don’t have a lot of noticeable role-models in the “known-for-their-looks” department anywhere outside of the Asian continent.

No – instead, for our entire lives, we are bombarded with images and messaging about the “ideal” man – and he sure as Hell has never had Asian features.  He’s probably white.  But he may be black.  Or even Latino or Arab.  But he isn’t Asian.

Why?  Because Asian men don’t satisfy the pre-requisites for male “hotness.”  Good-looking guys are supposed to be tall (even when they aren’t – i.e. Tom Cruise – they are portrayed that way).  They’re supposed to be ripped (and we all know that Asian guys can’t be cut).  They have to be tough (and Asian men are only fit for effeminate, nerdy roles).  Facially, we’ve got to be able to see those beautiful eyes – and those slanty Asian eyes don’t allow that to happen.  This isn’t mentioning the most well-known Asian male sexual stereotype . . .

So what did we (Asian men) learn about ourselves from the media around us?  That we sure were good with computers, but if we appeared on the scene with a couple beautiful ladies, that was instantly hilarious – because it was so beyond the realm of possibility.

And for those people who are about to cite some famous Asian leading men (from kung-fu action flicks) to try to tell me I’m wrong, let me put that to rest – Asian men from Bruce Lee (*4) to Jet Li have been kicking ass for decades on the big screen, and yet, somehow, nobody would ever think that those Asian men are put in those roles because of their heart-throb status.  Outside of an all-Asian cast, when was the last time you watched an Asian action star “get the girl”? (*5) Right.

So I somehow doubt that I was the only Asian guy that didn’t have a major inferiority complex when it came to his race and his attractiveness to women.  I felt like I could be the hottest guy in the world, and still be considered “nerdy” and “effeminate” by the majority of women.

And there is a reason I didn’t say “non-Asian” women in the sentence above.

Because now I live in Shanghai.  I’ve been here for a little bit now.  I’ve walked around a lot.  I’ve seen a lot.  I’ve gotten myself pretty immersed in the culture.  And here is what I see: a decent amount of foreigners; walking around in small numbers; within a sea of Chinese men and women.  Okay.

But then I see interracial couples – hey, good for them, right?  Except the only interracial couples I’ve seen (obvious romantic couples) have involved a foreign (usually white, but not always) man and a Chinese woman.  There have been no exceptions.  About 100 or more different mixed-race couples, and not a damn one involving a Chinese man. (*6)

In a country with hundreds of millions of single Chinese men and a couple million foreign women – what can it mean that those women just do not date Chinese guys?  Cultural explanations and justifications can only go so far when numbers are so ridiculously skewed.  I’m in freaking China, folks.  Even exposure and immersion isn’t powerful enough to overcome this media messaging about the unattractiveness of Asian men . . . It makes me sick inside.

And it gets worse.

Because, suddenly, out here – I’ve been getting all sorts of compliments for my looks.  I’ve been told I’m handsome (even “pretty”) numerous times.  So why’s that “worse”?

Well, when those kind folks complimenting me explain to me why I’m so very handsome (as they invariably do), what do they say?  It’s because I’m part-white.  Because my “nose is big” (like a “Westerner”).  Or because I look “100% foreign.”  Flat-out: because I don’t look “Chinese” to the people here, they think I’m good-looking (and all the ugly white guys that get pretty Chinese women out here only reinforces that explanation).

Even worse – the majority of people telling me this are the men.  Even some of the young boys I teach have told me this.  Why?  At first, I thought it may be a form of repressed homosexuality. (*7)  Further examination proved that not to be the case.  Instead, it is more direct – because my part-whiteness represents these Chinese males’ physical ideal.  I am that step closer to non-Chinese masculinity that these men – even within China, where there are tons of Chinese male role models and sex-objects – aspire to.

It kills my f-ing soul.

A long time ago, I posted a youtube video by this random Asian-American high school student.  In it, the kid rambles – as kids do – but it is mostly focused on the “pros and cons of being Asian.”  There are a lot of cons.  As he visibly becomes shaken and his head drops, describing how it hurts to get ignored by the girls all the time, and teased, and feeling low because of his race . . .

To say “I feel him” doesn’t do it justice.  And this is from the side of a half-Asian, half-white guy.  I haven’t gotten it half as bad as the full-blood guys out there (like this kid).  Never thought I’d say it, but at least I have Dean Cain . . .

So what do we do about it?  How do we change a system that is so powerful that it lends a sense of inferiority to men about their race within a country where they are the overwhelming majority?!!

Sadly, I have no real answer.  Dismantle the system from within – that’s my solution for everything.  But exactly what that would look like when it is so difficult for “us” to even get “within” . . ?

My, oh my, is the pressure mounting for John Cho.

It’s not the most hopeful outlook, but I’ll try to end it on a (slight) positive with a possible (albeit a bit tongue-in-cheek) solution that goes like this:

Heterosexual ladies and homosexual men, our fate is in your hands.  Spend your hard-earned money viewing the one film a year with an Asian man in a lead role and loudly proclaim the hotness of said Asian man, so that everyone in the audience can hear you.  Spend so much money on pop music performed by Asian men (think Rain and Jay Chou) that “they” can’t ignore the economics of the matter.  And finally – and most importantly – next time you are around a young Asian male, casually tell your friend how hot you think John Cho is, and make sure they loudly agree with you.

And, as much as that last paragraph seems like a joke . . . if you do nothing else, really do the last thing.  It could seriously lift up a young guy’s self-esteem.  Sad, but most definitely true.

(*1) The faux-”Asianness” of the setting makes it all even better . . .

(*2) This was many years ago, of course, and the ironies abound, in so many ways, that my thoughts actually went like that.

(*3) Something I still don’t fully believe all the time.

(*4) Bruce Lee is a possible exception, but the only one, and he died how many years ago?

(*5) I should mention that in “Romeo Must Die,” there was originally a scene at the end where Jet Li and Aaliyah’s characters kissed . . .  but it was cut before final production . . . and that was the exception to my claim.

(*6) This includes the various commercials and print-ads that have interracial couples in them.

(*7) And I mean that literally; because homosexuality is still not acceptable here, and thus a foreigner may represent the only chance at being able to express those kinds of feelings safely for a Chinese man.  I will post on homosexuality in China at a later date.

Edited to Add: Some of the comments are seriously missing the point of this post.  CVT is not asking for your advice. And this is not a space where we just ignore racism and soldier on – most of us do enough of that in real life.  On an individual level, dating is what you make it.  However, it is influenced by larger questions of stereotyping, media representations, and racism, which is what we explore in this space.  – LDP

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. links for 2010-01-27 « Embololalia on 27 Jan 2010 at 2:04 pm

    [...] Whatever Happened to Rufio?: The Non-Asian Ideal of Masculinity | Racialicious – the intersect… So what did we (Asian men) learn about ourselves from the media around us? That we sure were good with computers, but if we appeared on the scene with a couple beautiful ladies, that was instantly hilarious – because it was so beyond the realm of possibility. (tags: race gender asian-americans eastasia) [...]

  2. Whatever Happened to Rufio?: The Non-Asian Ideal of Masculinity « flordelino lagundino on 13 Feb 2010 at 8:37 am

    [...] Happened to Rufio?: The Non-Asian Ideal of Masculinity 2010 February 13 by flagundino Whatever Happened to Rufio?: The Non-Asian Ideal of Masculinity -Originally posted on [...]

  3. It’s Impossible To Have "A Benetton Heart" And A "White Supremacist Dick" | News URL on 16 Feb 2010 at 11:21 am

    [...] is full of programming waiting to inform people that Asian girls are submissive while Asian guys aren’t worthy of consideration. This type of racism manifests itself in phrases like “you’re pretty for a black [...]

Comments

  1. Danie wrote:

    I see all points that you’re making in this blog entry. However, I do believe that “male hotness” is a fluid concept. And what was deemed “hot” tenyears ago (thinking of macho AC Slater on Saved by the Bell) isn’t so true today. Culture is shifting the roles of men and women, alas the metro-man emerges–a softer, sexier, more effeminate version, which is indeed “male hotness.”

    Physical attributions aside, I do believe–and feel that many women will agree–a man with charisma, self-esteem (not to be mistaken with cockiness), and a sense of humor can beat the macho dude with the bulging biceps and “beautiful” American blue eyes and thick blonde hair.

    Please. It’s substance over six pack.

  2. Ilana wrote:

    If you want proof that plenty of women, Asian and/or not, know that Asian guys can be hot, just go here: http://www.community.livejournal.com/ontd_startrek and read all posts tagged “John Cho”.

    Let the objectification begin.

  3. mianoi wrote:

    @ Danie
    I definitely agree that hotness is fluid, but I think that Asian guys are in a double bind because of orientalism; they are just too othered to even be considered, at least in mainstream culture. So they are just never included in the “hotness” trends of the time. However, maybe things are changing thanks to the growing global influence of Asian culture, and guys like John Cho (awesome example Ilana!)

  4. atlasien wrote:

    I appreciate that you’re addressing this in a positive way.

    My father is Asian and my mother is white. Growing up, I got incredibly irritated when people automatically assumed it was the opposite. I do think there are more Asian men/non-Asian women couples than a lot of people assume, they’re just not as visible. I’m not saying it’s 50/50 by any means, it’s just that a lot of media and sociological factors combine to obscure these couples. When you go out of that public sphere into more specialized ones, they get a lot more visible. For example, when I was doing research on Chinese adoption blogging, I ran across many, many bloggers where a white woman was married to a Chinese-American man, and almost none the other way around.

    By middle age, when a lot of people are thinking about settling down, and superficial physical appearance goes down lower in the priority list, the dynamics are a lot different.

    I know that’s cold comfort for young Asian men though.

    I also think that SE Asian-American men are in an even worse position, because they get all the negative depictions of NE Asians, plus extra-strength gangster stereotypes.

    Tackling negative/absent media depictions of Asian men, and increasing positive ones, is incredibly important. It may seem like a herculean task now, but it’s going to pay off in the long run. I think it’s already starting to pay off a little bit.

    And personally… I think John Cho is a great actor and all-around awesome guy. But I’d give him a 7-8 on a scale of hotness. I have to reserve my perfect 10 for Jason Scott Lee.

  5. Ico wrote:

    Well… there would be a lot more hot Asian men in the media if Hollywood didn’t keep whitewashing all the Asian roles!! (*cough*The Last Airbender *cough*)

    Re: Jet Li, I’m surprised the kiss was cut. I haven’t seen the movie, but I kinda always did think it was his heartthrob status that made him the star of so many films. My mom and some of my friends really drool over him. The other favorite was always Andy Lau. Though you’re right that these are strictly Asian films.

    Here in the states, I blame Hollywood. I know it’s not the only factor, but it’s pretty annoying how whenever there’s a movie storyline centering Asian characters, suddenly those characters turn white.

  6. vcious wrote:

    I have a friend in South-Korea (white American female in her 20’s) who hasn’t dated a single white guy while there, despite the cultural problems she runs into when dating Korean/Japanese guys. Of course, I think some of us white girls who do find Asian guys very attractive (and watch Korean/Japanese/Taiwanese films, and TV shows) sometimes worry about fetishization .. anybody who’s been reading this blog for a while knows about the creepy Asian women fetishes some guys have. I don’t want a similar label on myself because I youtube Rain music videos.

    But I’ll take this post to heart and try to corner my friends into giving Asian guys a chance, both in their entertainment diet and real life.

    I love the title of this post, by the way. I watched Hook like a maniac as a kid and always liked the character of Rufio.

  7. atlasien wrote:

    Oh, and one more thing… I’m not disputing your personal experience in China, but I’m wondering about the factors behind your 100-0 observation.

    When my mother lived in Japan, she knew a few other non-Japanese women married to Japanese men. But she and these other women didn’t go out to nightclubs, or hang out in neighborhoods with a lot of other foreigners/immigrants/expatriates. They lived on the outskirts of Tokyo doing Japanese housewife type things. In any patriarchal society, which includes the US and Japan, women who marry out tend to get “absorbed” socially way more than men.

    Again, I agree that there’s a large imbalance in terms of interracial couples… but judging by surface visibility won’t ever give fully accurate numbers.

  8. vcious wrote:

    Er, add Chinese/Hong Kong films to that list of media consumed… I haven’t watched any mainland TV shows, hence why I mistakenly only left “Taiwanese” in there to represent Chinese entertainment.

  9. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    It would seem to me that pointing to John Cho when Asian men discuss their perception of undesireabilty is a lot like bringing up Halle Berry when black women lament the same thing. Even if lots of people profess their love for one celebrity (or maybe a handful), it rarely has much bearing on the realities of regular people and at best, is cold comfort when one is at the bar (or party or similar social setting) feeling invisible yet again.
    Excellent post, CVT. Thanks for your perspective.

  10. Diana wrote:

    Being a black woman, I understand your angst of feeling that you are not attractive enough among your own or the other. But, don’t lose hope. I think there are many attractive Asian men. We have a well-documented John Cho love fest going on here at Racialicious. I also find the pop star Rain to be very HAWT. I saw Ninja Assassin just to look at him sans shirt.

  11. Beth wrote:

    I feel you. In college, I was good friends with a couple of attractive Asian guys. In one conversation, one of them argued that more Asian men and black women should get together since interracial couples between white men and Asian women and those between black men and white women left us out. (I briefly sorta dated one of them–he was gorgeous and way out of my league). I’m long since happily married (to a white guy, ironically) but I definitely smiled when I saw an Ikea ad a few years ago featuring a family headed by an African American woman and an Asian man.

    In addition to the aforementioned John Cho, anyone who claims Asian men can’t be attractive hasn’t seen any films by Wong Kar-wai. Oh, and is probably racist–I can’t help but be suspect of anyone who claims an entire population doesn’t have any attractive members.

  12. Medusa wrote:

    CVT, I feel you. I have had soooo many (otherwise seemingly enlightened and progressive) friends (in America) say to me that the only type of man they could never be attracted to was an Asian man. Or when I was in China, when I remarked once that there were a lot of hot guys around, every (expat) girl in the vicinity acted as though I had just said I planned to move to Jupiter.

    I would like to point out though, that while the white man/Chinese woman relationship is really ubiquitous, I did know a number of white women in relationships with Chinese men.

    That said, I think things appear to be changing. I remember on one Addicted to Race podcast, someone cited the statistic that in recent years, more Asian American men married white women than white men marrying Asian American men. That is clearly a recent phenomenon and the number of Asian American women married to white men still outweighs the inverse, but it means the trend appears to be changing.

    Additionally, there is a hot Asian men blog (which I discovered accidentally) but I am not going to link to that here because I believe that “hot people of a certain ethnicity blog” is a little creepy.

    Actually, on second thought, I don’t think this blog is any creepier than the Gorgeous Black Women blog that went defunct (as they both exist to show that people who are not valued in American society for their beauty are in fact, beautiful), so maybe I will link to it… http://hotasianguys.blogspot.com/

  13. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    This was so heart-breaking and sad to read.

    Well, as an Indian female, I guess I’ll pipe in. I’ve always been attracted to East Asian men, but I’ve never dated any East Asian American guys because none of them were interested in me!

    whenever my (white) friends and I would discuss race and sex, I’d mention that I find East Asian guys very attractive and they’d find this funny, but there’s nothing funny about my attraction to East Asian guys. I just think they’re f–king sexy.

  14. MoGa wrote:

    I know it sucks when someone says, “But what about that ONE guy?” but I’m going to anyway: What about that guy on Lost? I remember reading something about how he said it was weird to be considered hot, but also how groundbreaking it was to have had (maybe?) the first Asian/Asian kiss on prime time, not to mention there was a study that indicated that a rise in Americans going to see subtitled films the year after Lost came out may have been as a result of subtitles coming to their living rooms. It’s early for me; pardon my inability to form any coherent argument here. I just wanted to say that I was proud of Lost, after I read that interview with him. Though I sympathize here and may be part of the problem, actually, having only dated white men in the past. Still, I was adopted by a Caucasian couple; for the most part, I identify as white.

  15. handyhunter wrote:

    “Three Rivers” was a short-lived, boring medical drama, but it had Daniel Henney as the sexy, flirty doctor. I didn’t know how much I wanted to see that role be played by an Asian guy until I saw it. If only he and John Cho were not so exceptional. So, yeah. Thank you for writing and sharing this post.

  16. Kandeezie wrote:

    I just want to say that I am saddened that Asian men don’t get more recognition for being sexy. It’s not as if objectification is the goal, but I find them very very attractive and wish they would get more representation in mainstream Western movies, for my own sake. (Very superficial comment, I know.)

  17. Brooke wrote:

    @MoGa: “What about that guy on Lost?” Daniel Dae Kim! I thought he was hot when he was an evil lawyer on Angel.

    My big crush has always been BD Wong. He kept me tuning into L&O SVU even after I grew tired of the rest of the show.

    I feel a little weird talking about people based on their hotness, but I just can’t let it seem like John Cho is the only Asian male actor worth talking up.

  18. Karen wrote:

    as a personal exception to the rule i definitely see what you are saying. i am probably the only person among any of the women i know who is attracted to asian or asian american men. expressing said attraction always gets me looks like, how do you find asians attractive. being black and being attracted especially gives me strange looks. the funny thing is that it isnt even that i have a fetish for “androgynous pretty men”, or whatever. it’s more of that i find asian men attractive the way i find latino or black or native american or (few) white men attractive.
    most my friends though dont consider asian men attractive which goes beyond my contemplation.
    however asian men dont usually consider me an option as a black woman so as far as interracial dating i cant help but wonder how the attitudes towards and coming from other non-white ethnicities play a role

  19. Karen wrote:

    and dante basco has always been a hottie to me, as well as Rain, James kyson lee, Nico Cary from iLL-Literacy and Colin Chu the man who played seraph in the matrix. there are plenty more but those men are the ones i can think of off the top of my head

  20. sekai wrote:

    Why is the OP focused so much on why White women don’t find Asian men attractive? I understand and sympathize with the frustration of having women in your ethnic group finding you unattractive, but why so much focus on White women? I know a few good looking SE and NE Asian guys who complain all the time about not being able to get a date with other Asian women and complain that White women won’t give them the time of day, but turn down gorgeous Black and Latina women who asked them out by the truckload. Maybe if such men would quit having such a narrow view of femininity and attractiveness (i.e. she must be fair) they would able to get a date.

  21. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    A while back ago on a gossip site I read about circulating rumors that Megan Fox was interested in the Asian pop star/celebrity RAIN. I read a lot of racist, offensive comments (probably made by jealous white guys) about why a hot white chick would waste her time on an Asian dude.

    Rain is so fucking SEXY, I’d do him ALL DAY.

    anyway since we’re talking about HOT ASIAN DUDES, I have a crush on this FINE Asian actor who’s on The Mentalist (on CBS), his name is Tim Kang

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1085727/

  22. Diana wrote:

    I’ve also used to crush on Russel Wong even though he played an evil bastard in The Joy Luck Club.

  23. Lola wrote:

    I think Asian descent men are getting more representation in American media but it will take a while for it to gain momentum. Heroes may have gone down hill but it did initially star 3 attractive Asian guys (4 if you count guest star Takei). Cho is getting a lot of work and I admit to youtubing Rain. Media representation does matter. I admit to being surprised to discover all the fine Koreon pop stars that are over 6ft tall and can dance. The American media brainwashes us in so many ways. I read a ton of blog/forums for black women and there seems to be a growing number of black women in relationships with Asian American men. I’m talking long term relationships with cute photos.

  24. Lola wrote:

    Also, I thought the actor who played Rufio was gorgeous. I’ve only seen him in one other major role.

  25. Mike wrote:

    Some concrete numbers so we all have a shared reference.

    Fascinating (if depressing) personals site statistics:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/10/05/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

    Upshot:
    – White women strongly prefer white men
    – Asian and Hispanic women have an EVEN STRONGER preference for white men
    – Black women get the lowest response rate among females
    – Black, Asian, and Indian men receive 30% fewer responses than white men

    Interracial marriage statistics for Asian Americans
    http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml

    Pointing out what’s pretty obvious by anecdote and observation: Asian women are far, far more likely to marry a white person than Asian men.

    I sympathize with the author in many ways. I had some of his issues growing up. I suspect it’s because many Asian immigrant parents don’t know how to “socialize” their children in an American way.

    Don’t get me wrong – the media representation stacks the deck against us and there’s a feedback loop where Asians start to “believe” the media. But I do see marked differences in how some of my extended family (cousins, etc.) were raised and that’s definitely impacted their socializing as adults.

    In terms of “fixing” the system, I think the answer is: don’t let yourself be defined by it. Break the mold.

    If you let yourself be ruled by your insecurities, by your self-doubt, the system wins. The single best way to change that is to confront your fears. If your friends are flirting with women while you’re all in your head, then force yourself past that.

    I’m a 5′1 Asian guy and I’ve had a healthy dating life. I’m lucky enough to have a wonderful girl in my life right now. And if I’d just sat back and thought “She’s ignoring me because I’m Asian, she won’t find me attractive because I’m short” – then nothing would EVER have happened.

    I know it’s not easy to fight decades of media and social programming – but it’s possible. Work on yourself.

    My last link, and probably THE BEST ONE in the post:
    http://asianmalerevolutions.com/

    Love those guys. :)

    Good luck.

  26. malted_tea wrote:

    Was more interested in the mentioned YouTube vid. Looks like it was taken down…

    http://www.slanteyefortheroundeye.com/2008/11/video-ups-and-downs-of-being-asian.html

    …but there’s a response by another teen here…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGi-3d7dlZc

    As to the general theme of society “cock blocking” guys of Asian descent, I don’t see it now or have I seen it in my past. At least not in the painfully touching way described here.

    Maybe that’s a Canadian suburb thing but there were a lot of interracial couples in high schools and one of my closest friends was the product of relationship between a Chinese man and Jamaican woman.

    Mind you, when I asked one guy friend (Korean) what would happen if we were to date and he brought me home, he basically said that his parents would flip out, die, then flip out again.

    Funny at the time (15 years ago) because I took it to mean that his parents were in the wrong seeing as intercultural dating was so prevalent in our city.

    So, do parents of Asian men and their assumptions play a role here? It’s a tried line of conversation but perhaps there’s still relevance.

  27. Shannon wrote:

    This article was interesting yet upsetting to read. Asian men are always portrayed as either the brainiac wiz kid or as the brunt of a joke. It’s a shame that this is the narrow view of asian men because they are such a diverse group of people. Since everyone else is listing examples of gorgeous asian men, I’ll add to this the name of Japanese actor Takuya Kimura. He is extremely handsome.

  28. Leezel wrote:

    Are there any stats on how open hetero Asian men are to dating/marrying someone non-white/non-Asian women? (Just curious how they compare to other groups)

    Staceyann Chin is a noted lesbian poet whose mother is black Jamaican and father is Chinese.
    Lisa Wu from the RHOA has a black mother and Chinese father also
    Rae Dawn Chong’s dad is ‘Chong’ from Cheech and Chong.

  29. April wrote:

    As a white woman in her 20s, I have always found Asian and American Indian men to be some of the hottest men alive. I’m dead serious about this. Unfortunately, I was the only one I knew who felt that degree of attraction (at least in my social circles).

    But since I’ve begun to learn more about race and racial issues, I feel quite hesitant to admit that I find “Asian” or “American Indian” men to be attractive. That’s because:

    1) “Asian” and “American Indian” are not monolithic terms. How can we talk about “Asian” like it’s a specific physical appearance? Men from different countries can look very, very different in coloring and facial features. I don’t want to be complicit in Asian stereotypes by saying I’m attracted to “Asians” (as if they’re all the same).

    2) By saying I think Asian men are hot, aren’t I being complicit in a stereotype of Asians as exotic and Other? By saying “Ooh, I think Jet Li and Takeshi Kaneshiro are so hot”, isn’t it true that I only think so because I’ve seen them as “hot Asian guys” and not as real people?

    These are just some questions to mull over. Thanks for the great article! And thanks for sharing so much about your personal experiences and feelings.

  30. F. wrote:

    I’m an Asian American female and I can relate to the way Asian and Asian American males are poorly regarded by non-Asians.

    I grew up in the Deep South, went to a high school that was about 95% white, and never got a second look from any of the boys. Never. More than a few times I was picked on or snidely referred to, actually, just because I was an Asian female. All by white males, who had plenty of blonde girls to choose from. I never went to the dances or the prom at my high school, because what was the point. Now that I look back on it, I was often very lonely.

    And no, I’m not hideously ugly. I’m just Asian, which to those guys simply meant I WAS ugly.

    I know a lot of Asian females seem to get a lot of attention as sexually attractive or fetished by white males or males of other races. But I can relate more to Asian males who are rejected and ignored than to Asian females who are fetishized.

    I have to say I’m not attracted to white males anymore. Maybe it’s because of my experience growing up during high school and how I was treated. I can remember being thirteen and drooling over N*Sync. But now that I’m a young adult, white males just don’t register as attractive or a viable dating option for me. I don’t hate them or treat them badly. They are just not interesting to me.

    I suppose that’s pretty rare, because a lot of Asian women I know are very open to dating white guys. I much more interested in non-white men of all colors– especially Asian. I think a white male ideal of attractiveness has been so ubiquitous and held as the standard in our culture it’s become farcical to me. It’s like a Ken doll. It does nothing for me.

    Also: To Asian and Asian American ladies who reject Asian males just because they’re Asian– just come down to the South, where I grew up. You might change your mind about how much you really prefer white when you realize how many really don’t prefer you.

  31. Hapa wrote:

    I don’t think the answer for asian men to feel validated is seeking relationships with white women to the exclusion of other races.

  32. al wrote:

    While I don’t mean to detract from the very real issues being discussed, I thought this was a light-hearted way to look at it.

    I know plenty of girls that don’t go for hirsute guys and find Asian guys attractive. The problem is that everything else in our culture pretty much says otherwise.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63bWYFGBTuE

  33. Kat wrote:

    Funnily enough a White friend of mine living in Japan complained that she and her other White female friends are overlooked- both by the White guys who want to date “submissive kinky” Japanese women (argh!) and by the Japanese men, who find them too tall and often not skinny and petite enough compared to Japanese women.
    Regarding “Asian” men, there is also the whole “Beach boys” stuff though in Thailand to complicate the issue.
    I agree that there are far too few films in which Asian men are the romantic lead. All I could think of were “Romeo must die” and “Anna and the King”.

  34. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    I got to admit, even I am *SURPRISED* if I see an East Asian man with an Indian or Desi woman.

    I once did a double take in a grocery store when I saw an Indian/Desi woman holding hands with an East Asian guy and they were pushing a shopping cart through the store and there was a little girl sitting on it– probably their daughter, who is mixed (and hella cute).

    I’ve seen interracial couplings of EAST ASIAN GUYS with White women, but it’s rare.

    Other than that, I have NEVER witnessed an East Asian man in an interracial relationship with a WOC from a different racial/ethnic group (besides that Indian woman I described earlier).

  35. Val wrote:

    I have the same question sekai has after reading this piece. Why is the focus on how White women view Asian men?

    I’d really be interested to know how Asian women view Asian men.

  36. Erika wrote:

    “I don’t think the answer for asian men to feel validated is seeking relationships with white women to the exclusion of other races.”

    This, this, and this. I’m getting sick of people putting white folks and the white beauty ideal on a pedestal.

  37. Persia wrote:

    I saw Ninja Assassin just to look at [Rain] sans shirt.

    I was unaware there were other reasons to watch Ninja Assassin. (And yes, I did watch it. And yes, I LOVED it. I also appreciated that there was a line that noted how physically attractive Rain was– something about him looking more like a boy band member than a killer.)

    At the LiveJournal community Fanficrants someone complained about a review which claimed “Character X” (who is clearly Asian) was “too hot to be Asian.” The commenters complained about this perception and proceeded to fill the comments with hot Asian men. It gives me hope that maybe the culture is changing in the right direction.

  38. Medusa wrote:

    Karen- I notice the same thing. Most of my life has been spent split between Asia and North America, and while a lot of Japanese, Chinese, and Westernized Asian men were clamoring to get with white girls (the holy grail of beauty, after all) none of them would even consider me a potential dating partner and not a small portion of them were pretty open in expressing their disgust at the mere sight of me.

  39. Ico wrote:

    I didn’t get the impression the post was about seeking relationships w/ white women. My impression was that it was about media representation of Asian men, and how the media emasculation of Asian men makes them unattractive in the eyes of women in general.

    Re: the numbers of white men/Asian women versus the alternative, I think the stereotyped thinking that results from this (and causes it?) is really pretty yucky, especially when you also throw in age and see how often it’s an *old* white man with a young Asian woman. I remember once I was apartment-hunting with my father, and at one place the landlady called me back and told me my “friend” had forgotten something. I got the distinct impression that “friend” was her euphemism for boyfriend or sugar daddy or something. It’s even more icky because I’m quite sure if he had been Asian she would have guessed he was my father; but because I was a young Asian female and he was an older white male… ugh.

    Anyway, the power dynamic: Asian women as submissive and cute and exotic, the perfect domesticated partner to the dominant white alpha male–that dynamic doesn’t work in reverse, which I think is why we hardly ever see it in mainstream culture. It’s not just about how Asian men are perceived, though I definitely agree with the premise of the post that it’s hugely problematic–I remember my brother discussing these kinds of fears and uncertainties.

    But I suspect the solution is ultimately going to have to go deeper than adding more hawt Asian guys to the list of famous movie stars, though that would certainly help and provide some role models and inspiration for young Asian men. I suspect fixing this kind of racialized and sexualized issue is going to involve examining masculinity and femininity across the board, and changing not just perceptions of Asian men, but Asian women, white men and women, black women and men, etc. Because I think the way Asian men are perceived (effeminate, nerdy) and the way Asian women are perceived (submissive, girlish) are linked inextricably.

  40. Athena wrote:

    As a black woman I can relate to the sentiments of this post because at times I feel as though the media only likes to play up the Halle Berry and Beyonce types of black women as beauty ideals and ignore those of us who might have darker skin or don’t choose to straighten their hair. I do wonder though, if the problem is not so much that women don’t find Asian men attractive or if the problem for some men might be that White women don’t find them attractive. I have seen plenty of Asian men both on screen and in real life who I found attractive as men and being Asian never had anything to do with it. On the other hand, I would wonder if they would even consider dating me or any non White or non Asian women. On a related note, I think its funny and kind of sad that when people think of interracial relationships they have to automatically include a white person. Just to clarify, I’m not saying that that is what I got from this post. It is just something that I have noticed in a lot of the conversations that surround interracial dating lately.

  41. Brenda S. wrote:

    When I was in high school (and my first three years of college) I was INFATUATED with Asian guys: mostly the so-called “geeky” ones. Needless to say, I wasn’t on their list of hotness, but whatever now…

    Don’t self-pity. There are plenty of girls who might consider you: maybe they’re afraid to ask.

  42. miz jj wrote:

    I find a few of these postscondescending to Asian men. Whether I find Asian men attractive or can list a hot Asian male star is not really the point. That would be like men of various races saying they find black women attractive and using Beyoncé as an example. It’s icky IMO. I don’t think the issue is if individual women on this web site find Asian men attractive.

    What I do find interesting is that there are posts like this, which identify that there is a pecking order on the interracial dating scale with some people on the top and others not on the top in terms of desirability. Yet, whenever the interracial dating conversation comes up on this site many people jump to to the ‘it’s ONLY about love’ and ‘people should date who they want and are attracted too’. I agree that people should date who they want. However, let’s not act like people fall in love outside of a social, political and economic context. Clearly (based on this article and the one I read from Kate Harding linked to on this site) that is not the case. Other factors are at play and I know it is a slippery slope to someone saying the dreaded “self-hatred” line, but the flip side is just as ignorant in my opinion.

  43. Jake wrote:

    Hi everyone (and hey Mike of Racebending! heheh),

    This is the editor of ‘Asian Male Revolutions’. I found this post on Racialicious via our website’s web-stats.

    I just want to say that I can relate to the author and his piece.

    And I know that all Asian-American males go through their arc of progression in grappling with the unbelievable (covert) racism in America – both from whites and from our own – but shit.

    When is it time to brush all this BS off, and rise up? I personally got tired of feeling sorry for myself a LONG, LONG time ago. And my life is better for that choice.

    I am angry at the injustice, don’t get me wrong. I am no apologist. That is perfectly natural, and normal – don’t let anyone tell you what to feel, it’s not in their place to do so. But also learn to channel that angst into a proactive direction.

    Seriously, what are some of you Asian guys getting depressed by? The future is yours. As in Asian men’s. White men are destined to fall, and they will – it’s the arc of history drawn in the sands, and there’s nothing they can do about it. All empires eventually fall, and all holds on power slide in time. That’s as constant as sunrises and sunsets, a total, 100% guarantee. Just watch – but don’t do it as a bystander. Watch as you participate and make it happen with your own hands: as a Revolutionary.

    I agree with what Mike said – be proactive, take life by the horns, and live as hard as you possibly can. What other choice do you have?

    That you have no choice but to live hard and play hard is nothing to be despondent about – it’s joy, and a blessing. Consider yourself the elite, the proud, because you have to be, to survive in a society that is created to stamp you out like bugs. Only the hardiest survive, and if you’re still here, you’re one of them.

    I created AMR.com to inspire other Asian-American guys, and to give an unofficial “face” to the struggle we all face together (along with the women who love us, and our friends of all races, sexual orientations, religions, and backgrounds).

    I encourage every last one of you to add us as a friend on our Facebook profile:

    http://www.facebook.com/asianmalerevolutions?ref=profile

    And to ‘fan’ us here.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Asian-Male-Revolutions/225415369284?v=wall

    Remember that by doing so you’re making a statement against racism, prejudice, and hypocrisy. You will be doing a good thing, in spreading our message far and wide.

    After you add us just PM us through Facebook to let me know who you are, and I guarantee a hearty welcome from all of us at AMR.com.

    Sincerely,

    Jake
    Asian Male Revolutions
    http://www.asianmalerevolutions.com

    PS: Remember – the war against ignorance is already won. It’s just a matter of seeing it through.

  44. n wrote:

    I grew up as an army brat and wife, though most of the Korean and Japanese military spouses were female, they often had kids from previous marriages to “Asian” guys and they had kids with their American (usually non-Asian) husbands. So I, for one, never had a problem with thinking Asian guys are…well you know.

    But I know a lot of girls who did. Its a shame because I know a lot of guys of Asian descent and a lot of women of African descent who would LOVE a partner, but for many reasons neither would ever consider the other an acceptable partner.

  45. DB wrote:

    Yes, I think this is all about the media. More Asian romantic leads equal not just interest in Asian men from women in general, but it’s really about giving Asian men the confidence to go after the girls. Really, it often doesn’t matter about the initial physical attraction. Girls from all backgrounds love a man with confidence – white culture breeds sexual insecurity among Asian men (like how it breeds other form of insecurity for men of other colors), and THAT I think is the primary reason for the issue we see here. Guys, a lot of girls are just waiting for a decent man – of any race – to go after them. You’ll have a chance if you give yourself that chance, instead of focusing on how terrible the media’s been treating you.

  46. Ladymorgue wrote:

    I admit it I have always been fascinated by the vampire type: pale skin, tall, bloodsucking male. (since I was five and saw Dracula) So in turn most of the men I have been attracted to fit that description. (currently my sister and I have a crush on Masi Oka) I’m have been attracted to Asian men(most of the student from my former high school were Asian) but some where very nervous in approach me since I was the one few white/ Latina girl in their classes. I’m not sure if it was from nervous teenage boy syndrome or because they felt reluctant of dating a girl outside their race. (Mostly likely both). Funny story (o.k not really, but still) When I was a teacher assistant (I was still in high school) and one of the student had a crush on me.I thought he was 17 and I was at the time 18. So I wasn’t as receptive to his “flirting” at the time.it wasn’t until later in the year I found out he was also 18
    @ Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist
    there is a Jackie Chan movie whee he visits India and his love interest is a Desi woman. sadly , I don’t remember the title.

  47. RCHOUDH wrote:

    The whole stereotype of Asian women being submissive both inside and outside the home reminds me of another stereotype I have often heard about Asian men (well not just Asian but non Western men in general). That’s the assumption that non Western men are generally too traditional minded and therefore domineering over their women, that’s why Western women would have a hard time forming relationships with them because it would go against their “feminist” ideals. This usually is a stereotype against non Americans but can also be used against American born non Westerners. Alot of Western women have it in their heads that such men, even if they were born in the US, would be too busy doing their parents’ bidding to spend any time with their wives…I think that’s yet another awful reason why Western women (predominantly white) don’t want to consider Asian/Asian-American men for marriage.

  48. Danny wrote:

    Reading the comments again, I think another point that needs to be more acknowledge is whether people want a serious relationship or not. This may sound a little preachy but first things first, Asian guys are men first then Asian second. Especially towards members of their perfered sexual orientation this is how many “brains” operate.

    It’s quite a handful to deal with stereotypes and other notions of feeling inferior, but beyond that is how one wants to be with his other half. Guys in general, regardless of background, have little or no problem with finding anyone attractive. There are of course prejudices, could be race or skin tone, etc. but don’t let the bad apples spoil the whole bunch.

    I have to agree what others mentioned that family plays a very important role in influencing this matters. The further away guys are from this pressure, or how confident they become in dealing with it, is important to how they carry themselves towards potential partners of any background.

    I’ve read something interesting last month regarding the whole China-Africa interactions, how more and more blasian kids with black mothers are seen around the African continent. Unfortunantely whether or not the Asian father is around is another matter. So, pass the superficial and natural desires, how serious a person wants to be is another challenge.

  49. Jake wrote:

    I understand many black female’s disappointment at the apparent fixation some Asian men have on white women. In fact, I’m not surprised that more are outraged.

    But promoting AM/BF as the sole alternative to the phenomenon of AF/WMs is not the solution. A more holistic approach is required to de-construct and dismantle a system of racial privilege and oppression of Asian men.

    A multi-directional approach is needed here, and that most definitely includes Asian men dating white women – on top of Asian men and Asian women choosing to remain with each other instead of seeking validation with white men/women, as well as Asian men in relationships (casual or committed) with women of all races, including black women.

    The idea is that this diversification of dating for Asian men will implant the critical notion of NORMALCY (of Asian men) in the minds of all American women, therefore raising their profile as a viable dating option in the wider public consciousness.

    This will have a beneficial side effect of making more Asian females realize that Asian men are in demand – because as far as the laws of female sexual/mating psychology is concerned – a male in demand by other females is a highly desirable mate choice, because it inherently implies desirable characteristics (primarily, social influence and power).

    In the end, it’s all about power – the ultimate aphrodisiac – and as a result of this ‘diversification’ of dating, Asian-American women will, in turn, realize that there is no need to turn to white males for sexual/social/identity validation.

  50. AMarie wrote:

    Hmmm, I have to admit this construction of Asian men as undesirable is new to me. When I dated a Korean man briefly, my mom expressed great surprise and asked “is he handsome? is he tall?” She might as well have asked “is he manly?”

    My perspective is completely different (I am African-American). I went to a university where Asian/Asian-American students were not uncommon, and I was acclimated to the customs of my Korean, Chinese, Japanese (mostly E. Asian) friends. It never occured to me that Asian men were not desirable in any way (regardless of my height, 5′11″ or my skin color).

    I think it’s also good to consider that I grew up almost exclusively around Asian-Americans (SE and E Asians), as opposed to African-Americans.

  51. pinksghetti wrote:

    In my area of Pennsylvania there isn’t a lot of IR Asian/other ethnicity relationships. Most of the relationships are Intraracial. But of the few I’ve seen they is only slightly more AW/non-AM then vice versus (about 60/40)I think different areas have different demographic. Also I can’t speak for anyone else but I can’t name an ethnicity that doesn’t have some hot people (sorry if that sounds immature but I hope you understand what I mean).

  52. Paul wrote:

    Just for the record, Kumar gets the girl in Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo.

  53. Reiter wrote:

    Very interesting read, and a heartfelt article. I think the insidious way that these stereotypes have so pervaded the mindset of the modern world that it’s pretty much soul-crushing, and that includes folks of both Asian and non-Asian descent. The media/Hollywood really has done its job in keeping Asians in their place in the food chain (that is, down on the bottom of the ladder). It is farcical how the media/Hollywood loves to keep portraying and reinforcing the white/Eurocentric standard of beauty as the pinnacle of attractiveness.

    Really, it just goes to show how insecure/entitled the white media ais and the lengths they’d go to keep these myths alive by stamping down the competition and maintaining the status quo (ie. whitewashing any and all roles for Asians in movies and TV shows, emasculating Asian males at every turn, objectifying Asian women simply as sexual conquests for white males, appropriating Asian culture with little to no regard for actual Asian people and their history, etc., etc., the list goes on). Those in power write the rules, as the saying goes.

    I mean, this mode of thinking is just so ingrained into people’s minds and we’re all programmed from birth to believe that this is just the way it is. Even for those liberal-minded folks who don’t consider themselves racist will often automatically fall back on these stereotypes when thinking of choosing a desirable partner/mate. The Great White Hope can do no wrong. It breeds a vicious cycle of contempt, self-hatred, and bitterness if we let it.

    That said, I truly believe we can rise above these stereotypes and antiquated modes of thinking. As an Asian male, I’ve dated white girls before (my first girlfriend was white), and it really was an eye-opening experience to see the other side, as it were. Perhaps my initial relationships with non-Asian women were based partly on a fad or fetish on their part for an “exotic” or “cultured” boyfriend, but I’ve learned in the process that outside perceptions shouldn’t get you down and keep you from living your life.

    My parents were on the fence about me dating outside my race (my father was more accepting, my mother was more traditional minded), so that’s another thing to consider. Admittedly had I brought home a black or latina girl my parents definitely would have been less understanding, but that’s a generational gap issue as well as a cultural one. But in the end, I believe you should date who you want to date. I’ve known a few friends/folks where an Asian male has dated and/or married outside their race.

    I also agree that there is this insidious belief that Asian males are domineering control freaks in relationships, that they’re looking for a partner to become their mother and expect women to cook, clean, have their babies, keep silent like a good wife, and fit the strict traditional molds of their parents. Or worse yet, that Asian males will beat their partners. Speaking to Asian females about this exact issue, I can vouch that a great many believe that white men will offer more in the way of freedom, social mobility, and economic status.

    The sad irony is that many of these Asian women end up with an abusive white boyfriend/husband who acts exactly as the monster they’d fear an Asian male partner would be. I’ve heard stories of Asian wives being beaten by their white husbands, are verbally abused, made to feel less than human, and even in one instance where the white husband always locked his Asian wife in the bathroom during social gatherings out of a paranoid fear that she’d cheat on and abandon him for another man.

    Speaking also as a military member myself, I’ve seen WAY too many GIs overseas trying to get an Asian trophy girlfriend/wife and then proceed to objectify her, making fun of her race right in front of her face among friends (while I’m in the same room talking to them!), and just plain ol’ putting them down while the submissive woman just smiles and takes it. It really is a sad state of affairs. Yes, some of these relationships do turn out to be genuine love born out of respect for each partner’s race but it’s a crapshoot. Human nature is what it is, regardless of race.

    I guess the point of my longer-than-expected rant is, broaden your horizons! Who knows, you might just be surprised. And F Hollywood.

  54. Ladymorgue wrote:

    @ Paul and don’t forget Harold and Maria! (Such a cute couple! )
    —–”about Asian men (well not just Asian but non Western men in general). That’s the assumption that non Western men are generally too traditional minded and therefore domineering over their women”
    I interests when people say that since I meet great deal of “WESTERN” men domineering toward women. My aunt’s ex-husband was controlling of her. While two of maternal aunts had a horrible (ex) husbands. I took a college level wold history class and the professor told us that the belief that men should control women is quite common idea in western culture.

  55. Celeste wrote:

    @DIMA: Yeah, what is the deal with the lack of AM SA pairings? It doesn’t make sense to me that they’d be so unusual. Although, most of my SA female friends tell me that they don’t find AM or BM attractive but they all find SA and WM attractive.

    Also what’s wrong with shorter men? As long as the guy has an inch on me, I’m good to go. I’m not even attracted to men that are >2x my size. I dated and NFL player once and the size difference was just a big turn-off. His hands were way too big.

  56. JunePearl wrote:

    Wow, so much to process here…

    First – You get an Awesome Card for bringing up Rufio! My sister and I used to watch Hook a million times just to see Dante Basco.

    Second – As a Black woman, a lot of what you say resonates with me. I especially know what you mean about trying to lift up young Asian/Asian-American men. Because my friends and I always try to do the same for little Black girls. For example, we’ll see them out on the street and we may say something like “Oooh, your hair is so pretty!” just to reinforce the beauty in Blackness. No one else is gonna tell ‘em that, so we do.

    Third – My other nerdy Black female friend and I went to see Star Trek, and when John Cho swooped down took over and basically save Kirk’s life, we looked at each other like “Daaaaamn! Dude looks good right now”. Having said that, I do worry that he becomes the Halle Berry of Asian America. So if I’m doing the thing in your last paragraph (which I will, trust me, I get exactly what you mean. We. Are. :Here:), I’ll try to diversify.

  57. Bcbgrl33 wrote:

    As a young black female, I will totally reiterate what many other black posters have said about how it seems black women and asian men definitely get the short end of the stick. I would definitely date an Asian man at my college if some weren’t so interested in getting white women (although I have seen a lot of Asian men with Asian women which is nice and refreshing). I’m studying to become an engineer so I definitely have a lot a interaction with Asian men, especially from China. It was nice to hear an Asian prospective in this heartfelt poignant piece.

    I also agree that it would be nice if Black women and Asian men were like “screw the western standard of beauty” and got together, and that’s why I definitely support “Flashforward”-even for its inane lead and acting- for the simple and refreshing hotness that is John Cho and Gabrielle Union.

    I also didn’t know they cut a kiss scene from “Romeo must Die” but I’m not surprised because i definitely felt that something was missing in the end; that yeah they definitely should’ve kissed but are now just walking off together like friends. BS i knew they had chemistry, damn hollywood for depriving us of the obvious culmination of their flirting and chemistry.

    I will definitely follow your example and proudly proclaim the hotness of an Asian lead in a theater and to my friends. In fact my white friends and I saw “Red Cliff” the other day and were literally fawning over the sexiness that was Takeshi Kaneshiro. He is a sexy sexy Asian man. I wish more people would value the attractiveness of Asian men and Black women.

  58. youngin` wrote:

    mhmmm tae yang and rain =D too fine .

    @ Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist lol they`re so many youtube tribute videos to that pairing lol .

    Just a thought though where do Indian men fit into this ? They always get shafted. They deal with same stuff in this article (always the nerd, never the get the girl etc. except in bollywood but that`s a whole other story) but at the same time asian people never see them as fellow asians=/ I noticed in North America they do that alot, like asian just implies to east asian .

    Also interesting enough at my high school, alot more non-asian woman (including brown woman) find asian men attractive in comparison to the asian mostly chinese girls at my school, who exclusively go for white guys =/ The asian men were also usually never into dating a non-asian woman, with the exception of a few white girls .

  59. Charlemange wrote:

    I started dating Asian Men in my 20s and they were the best boyfriends I ever had. They didn’t last because I moved places so often. I never experienced any problems regarding race in these relationships.

    I think Hollywood is to blame for a lot of the negative stereotypes of Asians.

  60. Melanie Carbine wrote:

    If you want to see interracial couples with Asian male counterparts, you gotta go to Seattle. That’s pretty much the only place I’ve seen it. I’ve been told by both white and Asian women and men that I’m beautiful because I’m mixed. Asian features just lend themselves well to American (and sometimes Asian) standards of beauty for women. I don’t really appreciate from the men though because it’s mostly the exotic factor.

    John Cho is hot. Jet Li. Asian men I know personally… why aren’t they on screen more?

  61. Sugabelly wrote:

    You see this post about Asian men not being considered masculine/ attractive in a masculine way? You could totally apply it if you changed Asian men to African women and changed masculine to feminine/beautiful or attractive in a feminine way.

    I totally feel your pain.

  62. ml wrote:

    i wonder, does where one grew up have a role as to why people don’t date people of the same race/ethnicity. i admit i was one of those AA girls who was not attracted to Asian guys, except for Andy Lau and Galen Lo. I grew up in a very diverse environment and attended very diverse schools. all the asian boys at my school did not fit the nerdy, effeminate stereotype. they were more thuggish and not intelligent academically. but as i got older i became more attracted to asian men. and no i’ve never dated a white man. do halfies count?

    and just for fun:
    ken leung, russell wong, john cho, michael wong (actor), garrett wang, paolo montalban, daniel henney, dennis o, are all fine asian men.

    Mod Note – Please do not use the term “halfies”, mixed race works fine. – LDP

  63. calicat wrote:

    @Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist : I’m a Latina woman who’s currently dating an AM, so some women of other ethnicities DO date/find Asian men attractive :D

    However, just to add my two cents to all this, white standards of beauty for both men and women are the universal ideal, and as long as those are upheld as the ideals they will continue to hurt those who don’t fit those narrowly defined standards. Case in point: whenever I’ve been introduced to ANY bf’s parents or other family members, they always breathe a sigh of relief because at least I look “part-white” or “mixed” and this validates their interest in dating me. With the current bf, some of his family is very traditional and even though we’ve been together for almost 5 years and his family knows he’s dating someone, they STILL don’t know that I am not Asian…and odds are they wouldn’t find out unless we ever decide to get married. As far as interracial dating goes, I imagine that for some cultures it is tougher to bring home someone who is a different race if that race isn’t white, which is likely why (some? many? most?) Asian men may overlook potential partners if they happen to be non-white/non-Asian. Which is all the more reason to redefine beauty standards for both women and men.

  64. miga wrote:

    A couple of notes:

    I didn’t know about the cut kiss in Romeo Must Die, but in general, Jet Li doesn’t kiss other women in movies (or anywhere else) because he feels it’s cheating on his wife.

    Secondly- did you know that Rufio is the voice of Prince Zuko in Avatar the Last Airbender? He’s done some other stuff too (I rememberseeing him dancing in a cellphone commercial), but this is his most recent thing, I think.

  65. refresh_daemon wrote:

    I wrote a lengthy comment, but I think I hit the wrong button on my browser and lost it.

    Long story short: I know where you’re coming from as a fellow Asian American man. There is a start to a solution, which is to win the war within our own psyches. By accepting that we are awesome regardless of what “the Man” might say and proceeding live awesomely and being awesome around young impressionable Asian American men and boys, we’ll get over our first big problem, which is the insecurity that’s caused by the systemic emasculation of Asian men present in mainstream American culture.

    Or, to reinterpret the sage words of an Asian man: “Be the hotness that you want to see in the world.”

    (Gandhi, please forgive me.)

  66. CVT wrote:

    Wow – so many comments, so little time to respond. However, gotta cover two things:

    1) It’s interesting how people have jumped to think this post is about attractiveness to WHITE women. The first example happens to be that, yes, but everywhere else I specifically do not tag race onto it. So it says a lot about assumptions that all my references to the “foreign” women in China has been turned to “white” women. Those who know me would crack up to think y’all thought I wrote a post lamenting the lack of white girls’ attention in my life.

  67. CVT wrote:

    2) This is mostly to “Jake” of “Asian Male Revolutions,” but it’s for everyone else, as well: I see how this comes off as “wah, wah, poor me” – so here’s the epilogue: I have very little worry about my own attractiveness – and definitely not a DROP about my “masculinity” – at this point in my life. I know what and who I am. But it took a while. And it’s not so easy for everybody – so this post is about making it apparent to others how ridiculous this media system is. If you check out my other writings, you will see that I am hardly “sit on my hands and cry about injustice.” Just wanted to make that clear – and I’ll definitely check out your site; sounds promising.

  68. Ike wrote:

    Not to knock this post, which is well-written and has a lot of good responses, but it certainly is true that interracial dating posts get the most comments! =P

    And someone mentioned taller women dating shorter men, which brought to mind this trailer that I found yesterday:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqLyCTESjg

  69. Invasian wrote:

    I always get pissed when I hear stories about Asian men rejecting black and Latino women. It’s boneheadedly narrow-minded…and racist.
    Sometimes I get the uneasy feeling that a few Asian men want a trophy white woman at their side, just like white men want a trophy Asian woman at their side. Not all the time of course.
    I think so many IR couples have a white person because white is the “standard of beauty,” and it’s like a “status symbol” of kinds.

  70. n wrote:

    @sugabelly- exactly!

  71. GENQ10 wrote:

    The more I read about the racial hierarchy, the more I am convinced that many, many people–despite claims to the contrary–still associate white with right (and, perhaps consciously or unconsciously, social mobility/wealth). Not that I’m accusing the author of this, or anything…

  72. tg wrote:

    a couple things

    - i think i read somewhere that jet li thought it would be inappropriate to have a kiss with aaliyah after all the (spoiler) deaths occurring near the end. also the kiss apparently did poorly in test screenings which could sound like bull shit but i wouldn’t be surprised if it was true: when i went to see harold and kumar, there were some people in the theater who booed when harold got some lip action from maria

    - rufio (real name dante basco) is doing pretty well as a spoken word artist. if you youtube him one of the top results is his stint on def poetry jam

    a couple things

    - i think i read somewhere that jet li thought it would be inappropriate to have a kiss with aaliyah after all the (spoiler) deaths occurring near the end. also the kiss apparently did poorly in test screenings which could sound like bull shit but i wouldn’t be surprised if it was true: when i went to see harold and kumar, there were some people in the theater who booed when harold got some lip action from maria

    - rufio (real name dante basco) is doing pretty well as a spoken word artist. if you youtube him one of the top results is his stint on def poetry jam

    - on a less serious note, objectification of asian men is not at all a problem if looked at from a heterosexual point of view but in the LGBT community it’s kind of a growing fetish. a friend of mine hits up gay bars and too many times he gets white guys who come up to him and try to speak in chinese (he’s korean zlol)

    great article

  73. B wrote:

    I have to agree with some of the comments here. I reiterate what some people have said before, as a black woman I can feel your pain. And soul-killing is an adequate descriptive. I too have been told I’m attractive, by friends both male and female of all races/ages, but the Euro-centric world we live in will never acknowledge my beauty as being being equivalent to any white female, because of my blackness. I will not find balance portrayals of women who look like me in the media.

    If it makes you feel any better, which it probably wont but anyhow, I find Asian men, mixed or not (men no matter the race actually) attractive. I think Asian men and black women need to join forces to dismantle the dehumanizing stereotypes that affect us.

    And I think I will speak up a little more about attractive Asian males that I like, but all my friends already know about my John Cho and various Korean male soap star fantasies! But I know how it has made me feel (slightly) better in some circumstances to hear non-black male friends mention a black female celebrity they find attractive, cause regardless, at least these women are getting noticed for the physically beautiful people they are. I’ll try to reciprocate that for my Asian guy friends.

    Thanks for the post.

  74. Mickey wrote:

    GENQ10 said:

    “The more I read about the racial hierarchy, the more I am convinced that many, many people–despite claims to the contrary–still associate white with right (and, perhaps consciously or unconsciously, social mobility/wealth). ”

    That’s exactly what this is. The status quo, especially in America is white supremacy, and we are all indoctrinated with it from birth, whether we realize it or not.

    And all of this talk about beauty standards with white women at the top, I wonder exactly how attractive are these white women that these Asian men run after.

  75. Therese wrote:

    About 100 or more different mixed-race couples, and not a damn one involving a Chinese man. (*6)

    Goodness, but we must not know the same people. I was living in Shanghai until three years ago (since then I’ve been in Hong Kong), and I knew a number of Chinese guys (mostly Shanghainese, as those were the guys I knew) who dated foreign girls, be it those of a different race (or those whom they’d consider different races but whom you might not, e.g. Filipinas) or “XBCs”. Same here as well. Moreover, if you go to online forums for expats in China, you’ll often find foreign women complaining about how Chinese men won’t approach them (though as a mixed-race foreign woman, I would say that these ladies mustn’t've spoken Chinese or associated with actual Chinese people, as I was [and still am] hit on far too often by Chinese guys despite being known to have a boyfriend). I don’t think that it’s necessarily the case that foreign women aren’t attracted to Asian men — or, as the foreign complain, that Chinese men aren’t attracted to them — but that there’s a cultural issue at stake, at least in Shanghai. No clue about the U.S.

    (There’s also the additional issue that many Chinese guys will complain that their mother wouldn’t want them marrying a foreigner, but the Chinese girls will say that their parents might not like it as much, but they would think that a foreigner could provide better and might bring foreign citizenship that could bring better opportunities, etc. Also I’d often hear Chinese friends saying that they didn’t like to date foreigners generally because they would be here one day and gone the next which, in many cases, is quite true. I’ve been in China for almost ten years now, but those who stay are few.)

    Also: Rain and Jay Chou?! Talk about unattractive (and talentless in Rain’s case; I <3 your music, Jay!). Kaneshiro Takeshi (Wu Jincheng) FTW.

  76. Jha wrote:

    Growing up in Malaysia, there was never any lack of attractive Asian guys. When I moved to Canada, though, most of the guys I met in university were vastly different from me in terms of values and interests, and there was virtually no common ground. The only Asian I considered dating was a student of mine at my tutoring job, so it felt unprofessional.

    I’ve had three relationships, all with white men so far, and while I would like to date Asian men, there are so few in my vicinity, much less those who share my strongly-feminist, deeply analytical values. And those who do are not my physical type. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a big world out there!

    I tend to struggle with how attractive I really am as an Asian woman (do guys really find me attractive, or does Asian fetishization play in?), but part of it really just plays into dominant paradigms of attractiveness, and I don’t want to be buying into those anymore. Then again, I know it’s something that’s incredibly hard to break out from, so I understand the anxieties that Asian guys would go through.

    Dante Basco also voiced Jake Long in Disney’s American Dragon!

  77. gottalovemn wrote:

    As one of the only white girls dating an Asian guy that I know, it broke my heart to read this. I have more friends than not who profess to “not being attracted to Asian men,” which is so stupid because Asian men come in all different shapes, sizes, colors, and most importantly personalities. Whatever, I think lots of Asian guys are sexy and so I say “more for me!” :P But in seriousness, your points are right on. The only thing I’d say is that while I was living in Shanghai, I often tried to flirt with Chinese guys and was rebuffed every time except for one. Perhaps I was going about it the wrong way (entirely possible) but my white girlfriends had the same experience. Essentially, my Chinese girlfriends told us that we were all too tall, loud and fat for Chinese men to want – so maybe white ladies in Asia aren’t the only ones being picky. Still, that doesn’t excuse foreign women who price themselves out of the market because of racist notions of masculinity.

  78. Kaonashi wrote:

    I know a few good looking SE and NE Asian guys who complain all the time about not being able to get a date with other Asian women and complain that White women won’t give them the time of day, but turn down gorgeous Black and Latina women who asked them out by the truckload. Maybe if such men would quit having such a narrow view of femininity and attractiveness (i.e. she must be fair) they would able to get a date.

    I’m in a long-term relationship, but if I were single this is the number one reason why I wouldn’t even consider Asian men as an option. For the record, I am strictly EOE when it comes to dating and think Asian men are fucking delicious. But I’ve seen this sorry scenario play out one too many times when I was in college:

    Asian Guy Friend: Girls don’t like me, I can’t get a date… *mutter, gripe*

    Me: Well, what do you think of So-and-so (who happens to be Black, Latino, or Biracial)? She’s really nice, and I think she really likes you!

    AM: She’s nice, but…*significant pause* she’s not my type. *sigh*

    I could have written it off as just this person’s quirk, but it happened time and time again. Dudes would completely ignore that beautiful Black or Latino sister in the corner practically turning cartwheels to get his attention and is just dying for a look, a smile, anything that would let her know that he might be interested. But they’d run 50 miles for that Zhang Ziyi lookalike or a White girl. Because apparently, dating a Black or Latino is lowering their standards, and we can’t have that! IMO if someone has a limited idea of beauty and bases their dating criteria on race, then maybe they deserve to be alone.

    To be fair though I have to admit that there have been Asian guys who said that they were interested, but were too afraid to ask the girl out because they thought she would laugh and say no. So maybe shyness plays a major part as well?

  79. octogalore wrote:

    Agree with Atlasien at #7 re “I’m not disputing your personal experience in China, but I’m wondering about the factors behind your 100-0 observation.”

    I spent some time working in Japan (IBM) and noticed a number of non-Asian woman/Asian man couples. But undisputedly, far fewer than the reverse.

    Interestingly, of about 5-6 Asian men I dated, 2 of them (one Indian, one Korean) made it clear they could not marry me because I wasn’t Asian (the Indian guy eventually dumped me after finding out I wasn’t a virgin). But this is probably not that typical.

    In environments in America in which there are many Asians — one good example is MIT — there are many white woman/Asian man couples.

    I wonder if part of the issue, too, is the cultural emphasis on men being taller/heavier than women. There is a cultural expectation that women are supposed to be conventionally feminine and take up less space, and often men encourage this — I’ve heard the occasional “nice liberal guy” make crass statements about women who happen to be tall or muscular being “mannish.” Of course, many guys don’t feel that way. But — as someone with various personality characteristics that often get typed as “too male” for a woman — I wonder if there is a feeling of safety, not that one will be “protected,” but that one won’t be called out for being “mannish,” in being the shorter one.

  80. karak wrote:

    I cannot speak for anyone else but: me and my white gal pals all have/had Southeast Asian boyfriends and tried very hard to pull guys on our East Asian foreign term. There are a lot of reasons for it, but I want OP to know that there are girls who are looking for Asian men! Keep hope alive!

  81. Dinger wrote:

    UMD and OCA published stats on Chinese Americans, which includes interracial marriage: http://www.aast.umd.edu/mapsenter.html. I think it has been trending from chinese-white to chinese-other asian, and because of increased immigration and group formation, chinese-chinese has increased in popularity too. You’d have to read it for yourself; there is a sex difference in Chinese-white marriage but I don’t think it is as stark as you suggest in your post. Personally, I’ve heard guys complain but I don’t think it is a big deal – it is hypocritical to complain of the bias and then focus your attention on white girls. I don’t think the solution is “try to be white” or “get whites to like you”, which is the same. Appreciate your own culture, history, uniqueness and don’t believe in this idea of “the mainstream”. I know plenty of pairings that are supposedly “rare” but in my circle, they’re as normal as can be.

  82. ashlynn wrote:

    I definitely have to forward this post and all these links to a friend of mine who, now in his freshman year of college, is really struggling with being an Asian male and having a sexual strength and identity- hell, an identity in general that doesn’t confine him to a fucking math class. I often have been at a loss for words to say to him, but reading this and seeing it backs up much of what I’d been thinking helps a lot. I hope I can let you know how that went.

    And I often try to avoid this because in my experience, it’s often been a hollow gesture, but as a black woman, and a woman in general, I’ve always been attracted to Asian men. A lot of the mentions here have had me shaking my head and licking my lips….lol! The basics have been covered, so to switch it up, when I was younger(lmao, like 4 seconds ago) I had the ill crush on Jin Kazama from Tekken. Yup, I’m putting it out there- even the damn video game characters were handsome! As I said, as a black woman, I realize how people of a certain race professing attraction to people from another race can be patronizing, but at that same token, it is important to let it be known that yes, man, many women find Asian men sexy, handsome, hot, beautiful- and are very interested. So let’s both take a step towards each other, shall we?

  83. Reiter wrote:

    Now that I think about it, didn’t Rufio die in Hook? In fact, wasn’t he like the ONLY character to die in Hook (aside from Hook himself, of course)? Just remembering that little tidbit makes me mad.

    But don’t feel sorry for Dante Basco. The man’s got talent, I’ll gladly give him that. Hell, he should have played Zuko himself in the Airbender movie!

  84. george wrote:

    I guess my primary problem with this article is the relative (though not comprehensive) elimination of Asian women as a benchmark for the question: “are Asian men perceived as hot?” I say relative because the author did state that he was in Shanghai and he did expressly INCLUDE Asian women in his statement that women in Shanghai do not find Asian men hot. However, he then continued to blather on about interracial relationships and the dominant paradigm of those being almost exclusively Asian female, foreign male (and I actually believe this as it confirms what I saw, amongst Asian/? interracial couples in SF). Perhaps if he was not, himself, so fixed upon dating a Euro woman, he would not be so worried about finding a caucasian woman who found him “hot”. I did not once here him describe/discuss all of the Asian women who have found him attractive (assuming, of course, this to be the case). Do their views not count? I think they should. So it seems that, if he has a point at all, it goes more like, non-Asian women are not acculturated to find Asian guys hot. To which a part of me says, “boo fu*^ing hoo”. Tons of white guys don’t find black men attractive, but I couldn’t care less, cause ultimately, I love black men and there are plenty of black men who love black men. I have to assume the same to be true of Asian women or else there’d be no Asian birthrate, right? You get what I mean.

  85. Reiter wrote:

    @ George

    I get what you’re saying but at the same time you have to remember that at least black men have strong (and growing) representation in the media and actually ARE presented as being desirable.

    Asian men aren’t so fortunate, but things are changing . . . but it seems once we take a step forward something always crops up that pushes us two steps back when it comes to fair media representation (going back to the whole whitewashing, emasculation, and objectifying/othering business).

    Boo fu*^ing hoo indeed. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss another’s painful experiences simply because we can’t (or won’t) try to relate to them. Denial (on the part of both Asians and non-Asians) ain’t just a river in Egypt.

    It infuriates me that people still deny that Asians don’t experience racism or at least a heavily skewed misconceptions that work negatively in our favor. Why? Because we’re a model minority? That Asians don’t have it as rough as black or brown people? That Asians should just stop complaining because folks tire of their whining? That Asians often get off easy as “white by proxy” and should be grateful for the privileges we do have? Or as they say in the military, just shut up and color? Hell no.

    I don’t want to get into the Oppression Olympics here but I really do believe people are starting to realize that Asians will not be a silent, invisible minority to be pushed around anymore. And we’ll voice our opinions with both grassroots activism as well as speaking with our wallets. (Are you listening Hollywood? Present Asians in a favorable light and you might crack into the huge, largely untapped Asian market . . . just look at the movie 2012, or the efforts of the NBA and MLB.)

    I’m also not saying we should seek validation by pursuing relationships with whites to the exclusion of all others. Pairing off Asian men with black women as a “last resort” because nobody else will have anything to do with either isn’t a solution either. But what I am saying is that we need to stop letting the media dictate to us what is beautiful and what is not.

  86. Janni wrote:

    Just wanted to state for the record that I’m the offspring of a Chinese man and a white woman who met in America. While it eventually didn’t work out, they were together for a good 10 years.

    For my personal preference, I’ve always been more about personalities than ethnicities, but I think perhaps because I myself am mixed, I’ve been more keenly attuned to thinking about such things very seriously. Being mixed is another issue entirely, because you tend to get rejection from both sides for not being “enough” of either.

    Black female friends I’ve had have definitely felt your pain as well, though, which I’ve never understood. Beauty (and hotness) comes in all shapes, sizes, and colours. We don’t need someone else telling us what’s hot; we KNOW what’s hot. We live it and see it every day. The rest is just BS.

  87. elisha wrote:

    Hey CVT, it’s nice to hear from you. I am your counterpart: a half-Chinese butch queer.

    I’m a masculine girl in a queer environment where folks like Ellen, Shane from the L-Word, and KD Lang (I’m grasping at mainstream figures in the hopes of broad recognition) are worshipped as hot. I’m proud to be a butch.

    But get this, I used to be an exoticized sexualized Asian woman, and it wasn’t hard for me to get noticed. Enough straight men made their attraction known.

    But dude, I have disappeared! Since I shifted over into the image I’ve always wanted – shirts, ties, loafers, I’ve faded into invisibility – in straight scenes and even in racially diverse gay scenes. There are so many times that I’ve wanted a friend like you to ask “whoah! What’s happening to me?”

    I greatly admire Daisy Hernandez’ seminal trans discussion “Becoming A Black Man,” that gives a fresh, urgent perspective to the criminalization of Black men.

    Maybe I can be Daisy to Asian men. It might be called “Fade To Yellow.” Hah… please excuse me using the bitter Y-word.

    Thank you for posting. But don’t forget it’s not all straight-forward. The fetishization of gay Asian men is rampant and racist (tg: it’s not new), the emasculation of Asian men often verges on homophobia (I aspire to faggotery), and masculinity affects more than just men.

    Affectionately, Elisha

  88. Jeff Yang wrote:

    CVT: I’m sympathetic on the one hand, but also wistfully look towards a day where we don’t evaluate ourselves (and aren’t evaluated by society) by reproductive imperative.

    There’s something so reductive about citing percentages and headcounts of couples of various races—it ends up in a choosing of sides and a blame game that blurs the line between the effects of institutional racism and the reality of the heart wanting what the heart wants.

    Being hapa yourself, I’m sure you’ve got conflicted emotions about these issues…on the one hand, love knows no color; on the other, color (and race and religion and ethnicity and orientation) definitely impacts all we do and who we are.

    What standing do we have to judge all 100 couples you’ve encountered, to decide which of them are the result of colorblind passion and which are the consequences of distorted perception? Not a lot, I imagine.

    But the issues involved are complicated and encompasses all kinds of paradoxes and contradictions, and I suspect we’ll be struggling with them for, well, ever, I guess.

    Here’s a column I wrote a few years back that grabbed onto this third rail—you might find it interesting:

    ASIAN POP: Opening the Box
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/18/apop.DTL

  89. XiaS wrote:

    first off, let me say that i will loudly proclaim to anyone that john cho is incredibly hot AND awesome, and my roommate will loudly agree with me (we are both mixed, i am asian and white; she is black and white).

    that being said, i really enjoyed your post and i certainly hear similar experiences from asian male friends. just to add my own weird experience with race and dating, i am a mixed race (chinese and white) straight woman and i’ve dated both white guys and east asian guys. and i’ve definitely experienced weird, exoticizing vibes from both the white AND the asian guys (though certainly not all).

    i’ve also lived in china, and a fair amount of my white American girl friends dated Chinese guys, but so did a lot of my white American guy friends date a lot of Chinese girls (a few of them with disturbing enthusiasm). a young, insecure high school kid at the time, i definitely felt all the white AND chinese guys were ignoring me, the weird-looking mixed girl. then I started dating a white American guy….until I found out that he “only dates Asian girls.” This has made me really touchy and later when I was dating this other white guy in college, and he asked me to help him on his Chinese homework (which was kind of fair enough since I’ve lived in China on a language immersion program and kept studying Chinese thereafter, and am therefore a good person to ask for help on Chinese homework), I exploded at him. Anyway, while everyone’s experience is unique, I can definitely relate to yours, CVT.

  90. Phred wrote:

    I can’t say that about John Cho. But Masi Oka is HOT. So I’ll say that.

  91. lunanoire wrote:

    A hierarchy of desirability shaped by white supremacy exists.

    I understand some people’s disgust with fetishization, but I also think that if a certain group becomes the “flavor of the month,” then the number of people who find members of that group as acceptable partners expands. So, though there are some pople who would have a fetish for people of this group, but others would think, “Hey, that group was not on my radar before but now it is. I think I’ll go flirt with that cutie over there.” My point is that being the flavor of the month is not 100% negative.

    Also the Basco brothers self-produced a movie that involved Dante having a threesome with a black woman and a mixed black woman.

  92. george wrote:

    @Reiter
    For the record, I did not mean to demean either the pain of CVT or of some of the persons to which he referred. However, I think it’s important to look behind their averred pain and see some realities here. The problem he describes seems to diminish substantially if you’re an Asian man who loves Asian women (finds them Hot) living in an environment in which Asian women find Asian men hot.

    By this, I do not mean that folks shouldn’t find other races/nationalities attractive. I love them all. However, I would suggest that we must begin by loving ourselves and, it seems to me, a part of that includes loving those who look like me (take a look at some of the “Doll” experiments that have been done with black children in the U.S. to gauge their sense of what race means regarding who’s beautiful, who’s valuable, who’s smart, etc.).

    If persons of color love themselves and those who look like them first, there will be less agita regarding the promotion, by an overwhelmingly white media, of an image of what we should love, what we should find beautiful, of which we, by definition, cannot participate. Having dealt first with our own sense of self-worth as mirrored by our valuation of those who look like us (phenotypically that is), we can move constructively into the world of, “what do non-members of my racial group think about how I look and what do I think about that”. I just think that CVT is a long way away from this realization, or so it seems from his post.

  93. G.K. wrote:

    Hey, I”ll say it—yeah, some Asian men are hot, just like any other men on the planet! As a black woman who’s been watching HK and Asian films in general for over a decade, I’ve seen WAY too many strong,attractive men in these films to ever buy into those silly limited stereotypes we’re force-fed by the media ever again. As for Asian-American actors, I’m mad that I messed around and only saw the last half of NINJA ASSASSIN because I missed Sung Kang (of A BETTER TOMORROW fame) playing the bad guy—I might go see it again just for that reason, because he is truly hotness itself personified. Plus this new cutie Rain is kinda hot—and he has some major scenes with Naomie Harris, a sister,which I thought was even cooler! Other hotties I like: Dante Basco and his younger bro Dion, Kal Penn,who’s all that and a half (yeah, I like me some Indian men too) Jason Scott Lee, and from the HK films: Donnie Yen, Dan Wu (who’s actually Asian-American) Andy Lau, Ben Lam, Colin Chou, Nicholas Tse, and Shawn Yue, plus a young,cute Dean Devlin back in the day before he produced Independence Day and Godzilla.

    Anyway, there’s scores of Asian dudes at he college near me, and some at the one I go to, but frankly, even though I’ve decided recently that I’d like to date white guys for a change (I never have) that might not even happen because here in the D, neither white,Mexican, Arab or Asian guys have ever seen me as option to date–I get no play from them or even get noticed by them whatsoever. So even though I wouldn’t mind date interracially (it’s been pretty in my family) it dosen’t seem possible for me. Since I’ve become recently single, I have hit on at least one cute white guy, and a very cute Arab guy (he ‘fessed up to being married though) but that’s about it. I’ve mostly dated only brothers (I did date a Pakistani dude briefly a long time ago,but that’s another story). There is one white guy I’m partially sort interested in, but he’s already seeing someone, so that’s out.

    Anyway, yeah, it’s sad how we’re all been brainwashed to think that certain people because of their color aren’t even worth considering as possible companions or even date material became of the media and because of the longtime racial biases we’re all been ingrained from time this country started as well as from birth. The funny thing is, since I live in a majority black city (Detroit) you would think that wouldn’t be a problem—me dating interracially–but it is. Anyway, since I just approached the beginning of my fourth decade on this planet, I’ve learned to love myself and not give a damn about that–life goes on regardless of what you feel. This site is STILL the bomb–I get and learn so much from it—bravo, Latoya & Carmen!

    Oh I forgot–Tim Kang,who plays one of the cops on THE MENTALIST–glad to see there’s an Asian guy who gets to be part of the action for once—is getting mad love on IMDB:

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1085727/

  94. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @George – If you’ve read some of CVT’s other posts and comments on this site, this isn’t an issue he has with dating. He is articulating a common feeling that knocks even the most confident of us.

    Again, see my comment at the end of CVT’s post – this space exists to talk about how race impacts us – not how to solider on when it happens. Most of us learn to do this instinctively in order to function. But that doesn’t mean this dynamic doesn’t happen.

  95. george wrote:

    @Latoya
    But these “common feelings” don’t knock those people I know (and I know plenty of them) who do not seek to date across racial lines. Nor does this common feeling affect those persons who’s notion of beauty and who’s desire for confirmation revolve exclusively around persons of their own race. That’s what I’m talking about here. The impact of race in the context he’s writing (and it’s important for you not to speak generally about the impact of race, but rather specifically to the theme CVT raises and to which I am responding) diminishes substantially when we love ourselves and create/live in loving communities of people who look like us. And then see the rest of my prior post to follow my line of reasoning here.

  96. n wrote:

    i must be bitter today because when i read all the bw saying am are hot i suspect that for many men that makes it worse. being desired by only the least desired group just makes people complain “that’s the best i can do” and sometimes run further because to date the race of last resort would confirm that they indeed can’t do “better”

  97. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @George –

    Actually, no. CVT raised that, and I can see how the sentence can be interpreted in two ways. Many people are interpreting his Asian woman aside as evidence that CVT does not consider dating intra-racially, which is not the case.

    However, what he was saying was that Asian American women are not immune to internalizing negative stereotypes about Asian American men as nondesireable partners – and in fact, some Asian American women perpetuate the stereotype. (Clearly, many Asian American women do not – but as many people already know, dating within one’s own racial lines does not guarantee unconditional acceptance.)

    Also, please note, creating this community is a contentious thing – see all the posts on the meaning of “black love” last week and how people assigned the concept negative and positive values depending on their own experiences and preferences.

  98. eh wrote:

    As a young Asian woman, I found this post really interesting. I’ve been to China too, to visit my extended family. I find it incredibly disheartening that the new concept of beauty in China is also how ‘white’ you look. Paler skin, bigger eyes and girls obsessed with getting a higher nose bridge through plastic surgery or weird pinching exercises. I know this from conversations with friends there that are around my age. (21-23). It’s bad enough that Asian women and men are told they are not as desirable here in Canada/America but that this has permeated to China makes me pretty depressed.
    Anyways on the point of Asian men in Canada/U.S, I’m pretty tired of media portrayals of Asian men as well. I know tonnes of real Asian guys that are attractive for their super awesome looks or for their super awesome personality. And to be quite honest, I am wary of dating white men because a. I don’t know if they have a creepy fetish and b. I don’t want to date them and think in the back of my mind, I’m only doing it cause it’s like climbing the social hierarchy and finally c. I don’t want to propagate the ideal that you are more attractive when you’re whiter. Why be in a relationship if I’m always considered the other or somehow less than my partner by society?
    Apologies for being harsh but NO thanks.

  99. eh wrote:

    Ok, I realize that I can be in a relationship for love but what I mean by my second to last sentence is that I am reluctant to be in relationships where I am perceived, by society or implicitly by my partner or maybe even myself as somehow “less” or a hanger-on.

  100. Hapa wrote:

    “Perhaps if he was not, himself, so fixed upon dating a Euro woman, he would not be so worried about finding a caucasian woman who found him “hot”. I did not once here him describe/discuss all of the Asian women who have found him attractive (assuming, of course, this to be the case).”

    This was my take. If he’s as good looking as he describes, he’d have very few obstacles getting attention from any race. Quite a few mixed asian guys become playboys because of all the women they attract. The majority of asian women in east asia want asian bfs. Interracial dating is still in the minority. Why are white women the primary example of who doesn’t want to date asian men? There were no specific statements about women of any other race, except white.

    Everyone has a right to their preferences, and they should take responsibility for their choices. The main goal isn’t to make non-whites attractive to whites. Only to help dissolve the unjust social hierarchy in place.

  101. Hapa wrote:

    “I am reluctant to be in relationships where I am perceived, by society or implicitly by my partner or maybe even myself as somehow “less” or a hanger-on.”

    I completely agree. I’m attracted to all races, but only date non-whites for the exact same reason. A relationship doesn’t need that extra element when it’s hard enough to make it work as it is.

  102. Jake wrote:

    #81 ashlynn wrote:

    “I definitely have to forward this post and all these links to a friend of mine who, now in his freshman year of college, is really struggling with being an Asian male and having a sexual strength and identity- hell, an identity in general that doesn’t confine him to a fucking math class. I often have been at a loss for words to say to him, but reading this and seeing it backs up much of what I’d been thinking helps a lot. I hope I can let you know how that went.”

    Ashlynn,

    This is PRECISELY why I started my website http://www.asianmalerevolutions.com.

    Don’t you DARE not tell him about us. =P Just joking, but seriously, you might be doing him a favor by telling him about us.

    Our website is divided into chapters and right now we’re still working on ‘REMEMBER’, which is dedicated to describing what is wrong (or in the parlance of the ignorant, “Bitching”).

    Soon though, we’ll be working on AMR: EVOLVE, which is a section dedicated to self-empowerment.

    If you care about your Asian male friend, you would inform him about us. Thanks.

    Jake
    Asian Male Revolutions
    http://www.asianmalerevolutions.com

    PS: I’m going to beg for the understanding of the Racialicious staff. I’m not trying to spam, but just to help my Asian brothers out – particularly the lost and especially the young, who are so vulnerable to all the anti-Asian male racism out there.

  103. Celeste wrote:

    @n: I guess some people will have that type of reaction. However, other people will see that there are some “great deals” to be had by considering people of certain race/gender combos that are undervalued in the dating world. I hate to make it seem like buying stocks or real estate or something but there are some similarities.

  104. izebe wrote:

    as a black west indian female currently living in the south east of the states, i’ve learnt a lot from this piece personally. i’ve never not thought of asian men & women as beautiful, sexy and attractive and my eyes have now been opened to the complexities of their experiences in this country & elsewhere, while i have been seemingly caught up wallowing at the bottom [or so i think] not being cognizant of any of this. not knowing these issues were being wrangled with by asian men. i’m seeing more interconnecting threads all around.

    additionally, i’m now further convinced of my surmise that whenever we [all of us collectively across the globe. i'm taking it global 'cause clearly white dominant values have permeated all over the bloody place] are able to finally dismantle these meta-constructs of beauty with a cpaital B & desirability & masculinity and who that defaults to and what that even means: that will signal another kind of revolutionary shift taking place.

    not because i think notions of beauty and perceived constructs of desirability are the be all and end of everything but still, sadly, it matters, though i’ve wished it didn’t many a time and i think something MUST be at stake in all of this mess. not sure what exactly though….i do know these constructs aid in fracturing some people’s sense of self. some people are daily struggling to be whole because of this or despite this: cross cultures/races/genders and orientations. i also don’t think it’s a coincidence that black women [and now i will add asian-men!] seem to be the last forever hold out for some. black men have still had problematic access into these spaces when compared to black women & certainly with regard to perceived desirability when pitted against some other races of men and even black women [but that is a whole other story] and we can go on and on comparatively down the line inside other groups.

    until we all have access into these spaces–and here i mean these meta constructs, outside of personal preferences/tastes and all that good stuff–then folks remain fractured, splintered, seeing how they are always viewed vis-a-vis certain select others, whenever you choose to look that way. the healthiest self-esteem doesn’t mean that you are blind to this: it just means that you are coping better, or refuting some ideals better than folks like me on most days. but you still KNOW what it is, i think. i also think that we [on the outside] are continually denied access into these constructs of masculinity/desirability/beauty precisely because of the great structural mind-shift and upheaval that change will possibly cause.

    say what? can you imagine ALL women being considered all kinds of beautiful with a capital B regardless? and all kinds of men being considered equally so? some days i wish i could create a blank slate of human consciousness and erase all these long held problematic, exclusionary notions and concepts, but alas, i can’t and it’s not that simple.

  105. jmn wrote:

    This is slightly off topic, but the latest sighting of Rufio is in his support for Coco:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR-g01JX8es

    Otherwise, this is a great article. Back to reading the rest of the discussion!

  106. Jake wrote:

    #105 izebe wrote:

    “Not because i think notions of beauty and perceived constructs of desirability are the be all and end of everything but still…”

    Oh but it IS everything.

    What is our existence about, on the most basic level? Procreation. We survive long enough to produce those that will replace us.

    As meaningful as all the intermediary experiences we have on this path are, that is the be all, end all.

    And when the reproductive path of certain groups or individuals are hampered *by design*, that is a very, VERY serious problem. It’s a violation of the largest order.

    Black women and Asian men are absolutely right to be outraged, and anyone who considers him or herself an anti-racist should be as well.

    In the spirit of the O.P. who encourages women of all races to proclaim their attraction to Asian men: I encourage everyone who reads this to fight FIERCELY and VOCIFEROUSLY anytime a brainwashed or ignorant person spouts the same old crap about how desirable everyone else except Asian men and black women are.

  107. Moridin wrote:

    Weirdly, I’ve never heard about this stereotype of asian males not getting dates until I learned English and started reading stuff in some American sites, like social forums.

    In Brazil the situation seems to be very different from the US (or Canada for that matter). Gender ratio in interracial couples that involves Asians are more balanced. I wonder why that is? There’s not that many Asian men in national media who are known as sex idols (I can’t even remember one male Asian Brazilian actor). Nevertheless, this didn’t affect the interracial relationships.

    The greater acceptance of Asian males having exogamous relationships can be atributted to acculturation to Brazilian society. But the greater interest of White (and Black and Mixed) Women have in Asian males in Brazil, compared to North America, can be explained only by cultural differences, I think.

  108. pinksghetti wrote:

    Dante Basco, I had to look up his name but I remember him back in the 90’s, he is very cute. I’ve thought about this alot especially with the whole fictional perception of Asians being the “model minority” but does anyone else think that the negative perception (brainwashing) of Asian males in the media may have something to do with the US having fought 3 wars in Asia (Japan, Korea and Vietnam)? I think there may still be lingering hostility in the US (especially in the past) and we all know the media is a powerful brainwashing and propoganda tool (I still haven’t figured out why they have such an animosity towards BW though).

  109. cocolamala wrote:

    waitaminute!

    isn’t anyone on RACIALICIOUS still holding a torch for KEANU!!

    am i all alone!?! (well, more for me…)

  110. CVT wrote:

    @ George and Hapa -
    I tried to say it once, but you must have missed the comment – THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHITE WOMEN. I greatly regret using the example I did (I cited the race of the women because that’s what I do, as a conscious thinker on race), because it looks like a lot of you have used that as a jumping-off point to think that I’m all “wah, wah” about what white people think . . .

    To be succinct: the anecdote was personal – the rest of this post isn’t about ME; it’s about a general trend that I can feel because I was that insecure Asian dude. In my own experience – which, of course, is skewed, because it’s only my own – I have felt that media-induced message that Asian guys are not good enough. I have felt the result from Asian girls, black girls, Latina, white, etc.

    As a hapa, ladies being into ME, personally, absolutely has nothing to do with this theme – because, mostly, it’s BECAUSE I’m mixed and “exotic” (but not fully Asian) that the women think I’m cute . . . which only reinforces what I say here about the general trend.

    Damn . . . I think I need to throw down a follow-up post about being an Asian bad-ass to cool this one down.

  111. CVT wrote:

    And . . . for those that are reading this post as some sort of “self-hate” or need for white love, PLEASE head over to my own blog and read up a little . . . I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

  112. Reiter wrote:

    One more thing to add that’s been on my mind. How do we inject the media with the idea that being Asian is as normal as being black or white or “American” (what is American anyway? – a loaded question if there ever was one). I think we’re seeing some steps in the right direction with commercial ads showcasing Asians just being normal people doing normal everyday things that any modernized Westerner can relate to. Like shopping at a department store, dancing/listening to music, sharing time with family and loved ones, you know, normal daily stuff we all take for granted.

    The more we see of this, that Asians as being synonymous with normalcy, and less of Asians kung fu kicking people through walls, or karate chopping stuff with our bare hands, yelling in nonsensical broken English or spouting fortune cookie sayings, and otherwise being painted as the weird, wacky, inscrutable, sneaky, sexually objectified (in the case of women), or otherwise perpetually othered foreigner – the better.

  113. ladydai wrote:

    A lot of people assume that most Asian men are stiff, no nonsense, brainy guys who prefer white western culture. It is easy to believe these stereotypes because we rarely see you guys presented otherwise in the media.

    It has only been recently that we have begun to see, that Asian males can dance their behinds off. Who knew? Because of the media silence, no one expected Asians to have any rhythm whatsoever.

    As a woman of color, I think Asian men are gorgeous and contrary to your opinion, yes Bruce Lee was a heartthrob. Also, although we haven’t seen him in any recent roles, Roger Yuan(bald head guy from Shanghai noon) opened a lot of women’s eyes to “the hotness of the East.”

    I think Asian men, need to come together, and make a conscious effort to make your presence known in the media.

  114. Michelle wrote:

    i must be bitter today because when i read all the bw saying am are hot i suspect that for many men that makes it worse. being desired by only the least desired group just makes people complain “that’s the best i can do” and sometimes run further because to date the race of last resort would confirm that they indeed can’t do “better”

    Um….n…could you please further clarify your point. At first (second and third, too) read, it seems INCREDIBLY insulting. However, I am going to assume that I am just reading it wrong. It does seem like you actually believe what you posted.

    CVT, I have read hundreds of your posts here on this site and this article is incredible well written and there is something beautiful and poetic about the tone of the article. Wonderful work.

    If I may, when you set up certain images at the beginning of the article, i.e. Asian Women and White Women, it is very easy for a reader to carry those images throughout the rest of the article. As a reader, I never questioned that you were talking White and Asian (or White AND Asian) people. As a reader, there is no reason to think otherwise.

    Lastly, since so much of your article is incredibly personal, I couldn’t help but put myself, literally, inside your article and inside your experience. It was that good. However, as a WOC, I have never really been approached by Asian men, and as many WOC that I know, I don’t know any Black women or Latinas who have dated Asian men. That is my personal experience and since you don’t speak about other races as specifically as you speak about White women, it then stands to reason that however unintentional, your article is speaking mainly about the lack of White and Asian female attention.

    Great work!

  115. solacium wrote:

    As a Chinese American female, I have to deal with this crap from (mostly) Chinese people: “You’re so Americanized! You only like dating white men!”

    Um, no. I’m currently dating the only white guy in my dating history. My ex just happened to be a not-too-tanned Brazilian American.

    I hate being labeled as that Chinese girl who rejects men from her ethnic background.It’s even more aggravating to hear your parents tell their friends that their daughter “doesn’t like Chinese men.” Ugh, that has NEVER been the case with me, I just have never been able to meet that one Asian guy…

    There are many, many beautiful Asian men out there, and I think it’s such a shame that some people allow media stereotypes to cloud their judgment.

    As for me, I personally love Kaneshiro Takeshi and Daniel Henney.

  116. ourname wrote:

    Not the most intellectual thing I’ve ever said here but: Daniel Dae Kim is gorgeous! Like seriously georgeous. Nom nom nom.

  117. little mixed girl wrote:

    *post attempt #2*

    While I am sure that there are women in North America who would not date an Asian man BECAUSE he is Asian (or find Asian men unattractive), I feel pretty safe in saying that in my group of female friends, that doesn’t apply.

    My image of Asian men wasn’t created by the media. It was created by what was around me:
    classmates, taekwondo teacher, etc.
    And the Asian guy I remember most from tv is the guy that was on In Living Color.

    I think that those of us who were born in the 80s were more exposed to different races, and hopefully don’t hold as many stereotypes.

    With that said, I’m always sadded to hear that people want to compare themselves to white people.
    If white people don’t find me attractive, I don’t really care.

    As to the final part about dating in China, what struck me when reading about Chinese men’s ideas of “good looking” is that they were somewhat similar to a Chinese co-worker crush of mine.
    He has said a number of times that a black co-worker of ours must be popular with women because he is “tall” (a little over 6′).
    He’s also said that American men are “cooler” than Chinese guys.

    Finally, I know that in North America there is a dating hierarchy that often puts whites as the first (and sometimes only) acceptable group to date outside of one’s own.
    So, if someone admits to themselves that they would not be willing to date a brown person, then I don’t think it’s totally fair to say that they are not considered “attractive” to people outside of their group.

  118. RCHOUDH wrote:

    @pinksghetti

    I would say you nailed it it all goes back to demonizing former enemies. The sting of Vietnam is still felt many years later, and now add to that the ongoing crisis with North Korea, the intransigence of Japan regarding US military bases on Okinawa, and China’s economic rise and you have a recipe for racial demonization, especially of the men. Asian women fetishes have also arisen from these same conflicts between the US and the Asia Pacific, when the Vietnam war led to an untold number of rapes and prostitution of Vietnamese women, as well as Asian women in surrounding countries like Thailand, Japan and the Phillipines.

  119. eh wrote:

    The SyPy channel has had two movies in the past couple months that featured East Asian Men as the primary love interest(and main characters). One movie featured the Chairman for the American version of Iron Chef I think he is very hot btw). People should keep their eyes out for those movies and also the new movies/shows on cable channels.

  120. sarah wrote:

    16 Candles came on just the other weekend, and I looked at my husband– who is Filipino– and said, “Doesn’t this piss you off? The ghost of Long Duk Dong still haunts Asian men.” He shrugged his shoulders– but I think about our two young boys.

    Can I imagine some/many white folks “otherizing” Asian men– to the point of not seeing them as sexual beings, capable of being any kind of partner? Sure….and it sucks and needs to change.

    Though there are more Asians on tv and in the movies than when I was a kid– it’s still pretty darn white out there. I’m hoping that there are more people of differing colors of skin/ ethnicities in the media so that my children do not see so much “whiteness” as their guide to what is desirable and beautiful in the world.

    I try to point out cool, nice, smart, Asian dudes (and non-white people in general) on the tv, in books, and Asian dudes that they know in real life. They love ABDC– we loved watching Jabbawockees (or however you spell it), cool, sexy dancing Asian and Black dudes.

    My kids are too little for “Lost” (and mom is allowed some private thoughts about hot dudes) but someday I will point out the awesome actor and super hot Daniel Dae Kim. HOT!

  121. kkm wrote:

    akira’s hip hop shop… fave (but way too short movie) featuring an asian male star who falls for the african-american lead. lovely & gives me hope as an a-a girl…
    :0)

  122. Ain't I an African wrote:

    “I know it sucks when someone says, “But what about that ONE guy?” but I’m going to anyway:”

    What about that guy on Lost?” Oooh, I was in love with that hotness!

  123. CVT wrote:

    @ Michelle – Thank you for the breakdown – and not jumping to conclusions on this one.

  124. ashlynn wrote:

    @cocolamala:

    OMG KEANU. The Holy Grail of sexy.

    In other words, no, you have to share. :)

  125. ladydai wrote:

    Michell, The least desired group??? Only in America. I live in Italy, and tall honey brown black women trump over here, and it’s not only for sex. In fact, there are a lot of places where black women are the most desired. Perhaps you should leave America.

    You make it sound as if black women who have commented are akin to an overlooked child in a classroom, saying, “ooh look at me.”

  126. pinksghetti wrote:

    #117 RCHOUDH
    Thank you, you put it in better words than I could :)

  127. CVT wrote:

    @Everybody Else: PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS BEFORE FURTHER DECIDING “WHAT I (the CVT) MEAN”:

    I definitely learned my lesson on this one. I know what I mean. People who have read a lot of my stuff probably know what I mean (and my personal racial associations). But most everybody else DOES NOT, so I need to be more careful with how I put things out there.

    So, last clarification (probably): I in no way condone “the white ideal of beauty” – this was an attempt at calling it out. I also don’t believe white people (or anybody but me, really) have a say in my hotness, badass-ness, abilities or anything else.

    AND – it happens. Things affect us. The media is a persistent damn force. I’m not the only one who ever had a taste of this. I’ve since moved beyond it, but not everyone has. Again – Chinese women (therefore, “Asian”) tell me I’m cute here – only BECAUSE of my “white” features, specifically. That’s about Asian women, not appreciating “their own race.”

    As far as all the other races (white, included), I somehow doubt y’all are immune (as a general population) to the same media brainwashing that makes Chinese guys feel inferior – and Chinese women prefer “white” features – in their own country.

    And – I, sadly, know plenty of Asian guys that put Asians and white folks at the top, with everybody else “below” in the dating hierarchy, and that doesn’t help matters (besides being B.S.).

    Finally – I get what “George” is saying about being within a community of “your own race,” and not letting outside forces judge. I understand where that comes from. But I’m mixed. What IS “my own race”? By that logic, I can only listen to, and/or date Chinese/white women . . . Not to mention that that mentality can pretty quickly devolve into that sort of racial hierarchy where “the other races” are “less than” and not worthy of dating (mentioned above). I don’t think that’s your intent, but that’s the worry with those kinds of concepts . . .

    Those are the big issues I feel I must address. Outside of that, I once again heartily invite those that doubt my intentions (in ANY way) to visit my personal blog and read away – and keep challenging me if you catch me slipping; it’s the only way I can improve (in who I am, as well as in my writing).

  128. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    oh my F–KING GOD. Daniel Henney is HOT !!!! Goddamn. I need to find a boyfriend who looks like him.

  129. Ike wrote:

    While we’re on the Asian/Asian-American (famous) guy lovefest, I just wanted to bring up my personal favorite: Sung Kang.

    What’s not to like about a guy who:
    1) Is a talented, good-looking actor
    2) Writes very introspective blog posts
    3) Writes blog posts about poop ^.^

    (Check them out here: http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/)

    If they made a movie about my life (for some unknown reason), I’d want Sung Kang to play me!

  130. Charles J wrote:

    Thanks CVT for your post.

    As a Black man, I see to ends of the spectrum. Stereotyping and racism hurts on both ends when it comes to everyone including men of color. As a Black man, we are considered hyper-masculine and Asian men are considered hypo-masculine. This stereotyping is hurtful and it’s harmful. I applaud you for putting this information out there. It’s makes me want to write more about the subject.

  131. thea wrote:

    Regarding Asian men dating /marrying non-Asian women. Well, there seems to be a high incidence in the Carribbean i.e. Jamaica of families descended from a Chinese patriarch and a Native(Afro-Euro mixed ) wife.
    This also occurred in the U.S. during the late 19th and early 20th century-due to the Anti-Asian Immigration Act. There might have been more Asian males (Chinese, Filipinos etc) but they weren’t exactly encouraged to bring over wives. So what do some of them do? they find non-asian women to marry and procreate with, and their descendents are automatically U.S. citizens by birth and because of the “native” mother. (The Japanese brought over picture brides, and were able to establish a more progressive comunnity. Since at the time there was the Gentlemen’s Agreement between the U.S. and Japan. At the time Japan was an up and coming power in the world.) This wasn’t so for other Asian groups.
    I’ve known “American” people who are a quarter Asian, who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s and the Asian ancestry is usually from an Asian granddad who married a non-Asian woman back in the early part of the 20th century in the U.S.

  132. heather wrote:

    It does seem strange to say “I find Asian men attractive” it seems to fetishize that attraction. Where is the boundary between attraction and fetishization? Taking that chance I must say I do find Asian men attractive. My favourite actor bar none is Chow Yun Fat. Not favourite Asian actor, do I need to qualify it? just favourite actor…

  133. Anne wrote:

    Not pretending to join the conversation in any deep and meaningful way – though as I’m not American I can’t comment on that aspect of the story anyway – but this whole “Asian-guys-are-seen-as-unhot-thing” got my brain thinking all the wrong things. It resolutely went FTW and then:

    Takeshi Kaneshiro
    Ken Watanabe
    Tony Leung Chiu Wai
    Jet Li
    Chang Chen
    Andy Lau Tak-Wah
    Woo-sung Jung
    Ye Liu
    Daniel Dae Kim
    Ken Leung
    Jin-mo Ju
    Jay Chou
    James Kyson-Lee
    Leonardo Nam
    Yun-Fat Chow

    And that’s just a smattering of famous guys. Just to get that out of my system. Now, for a cold shower.

  134. Bek wrote:

    Very good points, curious though if this is less of an issue in SF & NYC. I have two (white) friends (in Cali & NYC) who married Asian men, but I have definitely noticed the trends you speak of.

    I love the graf of recommendations because I do think that women find Asian men attractive but it’s not in the public dialogue. (or entertainment scripts). I personally love Chow Yun Fat in Crouching Tiger and Anna & the King, but those weren’t quite *happy* endings:)

  135. DarkAngel wrote:

    Maybe I am one of the few white women who has always found Asian men attractive. My love of Asian men began as a young girl when I watched Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon! I have dated extensively outside of my white race, and dated many different Asian backgrounds – Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Samoan, Hawaiian … there are so many beautiful men in this world to limit ones self to a single “type” is truly a travesty! It’s like only ever eating vanilla ice cream when there are so many OTHER delicious flavors :)

    Maybe we need to unplug from popular culture … I don’t know … create a counter-culture, or maybe this writer should start his own site for women who love Asian men. He might be happily surprised at the response!

  136. Sharon Cullars wrote:

    N, please explain what the race of “last resort” is; explain it well so that I fully understand what you mean.

  137. Ladymorgue wrote:

    I actually know a quite handful of Latinas that dated/married Asian men. I recall reading about Koren soap operas and this one actor is pretty popular among the ladies in Latina America. (I can’t find the article but I will have to take my word for it! ) I’m so glad/worried(I don’t like competition, ladies) to learn I’m not the only who find Masi Oka attractive(Ever since he did those ads for
    The One Laptop Per Child project and learned he is fluent in Spanish!) swoon!

    @ Anne you forgot
    Kim Sung Min

  138. TeriSaw wrote:

    This is a very timely article for me. I recently was told by a female friend that she wasn’t attracted to Asian men because they were “too feminine looking.” This I see as a manifestation of exactly what the author was talking about, the way Asian men are robbed of their masculinity and appeal in our culture. In my shock I could find no better response that to reaffirm my opinion that they are attractive and that her idea of masculinity was completely a construct. I hope that will eventually sink in.

  139. Shiyo wrote:

    I think every race/sex has their stereotype in our culture. It’s weird since most of the Asian men in Hollywood do kungfu or martial arts action movies (a rather masculine practice), yet there is still a perception that Asians in general are nerdy and quiet, and Asian men are submissive, socially awkward, and effeminate (not a bad trait, but annoying when it is the only stereotype). I believe this comes in part from our stereotypes of the Japanese which became popularized in America during Japan’s rise in the 80s, stereotypes that were partly borne out of their lower average heights and smaller frames and the notion that they were always obeying authority figures like good worker bees. China’s rise has less of the OFFICE DRONE syndrome, yet our images of the Chinese are often of faceless masses and tiny ladies in qipao, not the amazingly sexy native pop industry stars (that said, I’ll note that the media in China, Korea, and Japan all lean towards the slender, pale, metrosexual look in men, with Japan more so and Korea less so). We also see a predominance of Asians and Asian Americans today in the technical, scientific, and mathematical fields, and let’s face it – engineers and geeks in general are not often considered physically attractive, compared to say, jocks. Meanwhile we don’t see enough Asian superstars in mainstream sports, with the exception of a very few in baseball, Yao MIng and a few others in basketball, and no one in football. Sports is often the main arena by which masculinity is expressed and valorized – yeah sure, the geeky IT or white-collar guy makes tons of money, but is he often considered good-looking in a masculine sense? (Yes China may have dominated at the Olympics, but we can barely remember most Olympians’ names, and we keep associating the Chinese victors with sports like badminton and pingpong and gymnastics, which are considered more ‘effeminate’ sports unlike football. The sports that dominate America’s public consciousness have very few Asian role models, and soccer – the sport that dominates the international stage – also lacks Asian stars despite our populations.)

    I’ll note that women in many cultures tend to consider tallness to be physically attractive, and Asian populations are shorter on average. So perhaps that is a factor, since as an Asian woman I know so many women of all races who would not date shorter men. However practically all the Asian men I know at college, both tall and short, are or have been in serious relationships. I can’t imagine anyone who would write off an entire race, even if they preferred a particular characteristic that showed up more in some races than others. (And really, it’s their loss.) After all, there are still a ridiculous number of tall Asians out there, and women also tend to think of higher incomes and education as a plus, and Asians on average have at least decent incomes (though I’m not sure of the standard deviation on that, and you’d have to break it down by specific nationality). Then there is that whole discussion of penis sizes which I won’t go into, but which I suspect matter a lot more for the (rather paranoid) men than actual women.

    At my university, I haven’t noticed a tendency in Asian women to prefer Asian men less. Perhaps some Asian men feel less self-confident about their appearances due to the stereotypes generated in the media, so they are less likely to approach women with confidence, which makes them seem less attractive? Vicious cycle there. Yet in my circle of Asian female friends, we are always talking about cute Asian guys! But I agree that the American media does not show this attitude that Asian guys = hot (from either straight women or gay men), and instead loves to comically perpetuate the whole “Asian girls prefer white men” and “Asian guys are nerdy skinny anime geeks” stereotypes.

    I also suspect that for both Asian men and Asian women even in the U.S., there is a tendency to shaft the races that aren’t white or Asian (though that are obviously still many very open-minded Asians, and I don’t accuse anyone on here of doing shafting them). This just comes from personal observation, and it is biased by how Asians do not meet as many non-white/Asian people at professional schools and Ivy League universities. I feel that many Asian parents are prejudiced (ignorantly, not so much maliciously) against darker skin coloring, so perhaps their children hesitate to bring non-white/Asian dating partners home. This is even more true in Asian countries, where recent Westernization has promoted the white beauty ideal for both men and women such that not only are black/Hispanic/other people put down as always, but also the native Asian population (still obviously have it much better though, relatively speaking).

  140. Westerly wrote:

    Tony Jaa, Will Yun Lee, Yoo Ji-Tae (along with Bruce Lee, Andy Lau, Tony Leung, Keanu, Takeshi Kaneshiro, Daniel Henney, Chow Yun Fat, Jet Li and all these others that have been mentioned.) But I’m sure just about anyone could list at least half a dozen smoking hot or cute Asian men quite easily.

    Still doesn’t invalidate the point of the OP…

    Re: “Romeo Must Die” and the deleted kiss. I wouldn’t have minded if they’d kissed but it never bothered me that it didn’t, given the context. Horrible family discovery, followed by father’s suicide. I’m not sure if that’s necessarily the moment for a kiss. Then again, there were plenty of more opportune moments for a kiss, earlier on in the film that could/should have been taken.

    Kiss or no kiss, there was definitely a lot of chemistry and the Trish/Han dynamic was incredibly cute and hot. That’s all I’ll say. I’m not going to presume to lecture anyone on how they should perceive their identity.

  141. Stephen wrote:

    This is a well-written post with an argument that, as an Asian American male, I greatly empathize with. As a child to parents who are from a nation (Korea) that was essentially colonized by the US, this belief that whiteness is analogous to beauty is pervasive in every facet of my life. When visiting Korea over the past few years, it simply appalls me how deep this discourse runs throughout all of Korean society. For instance, women and men everywhere get plastic surgery to attain more western ideals of beauty. The stars that are considered the most beautiful are the ones with the lightest complexions. The people I know are so critical of one anothers’ looks that it completely sickens me. I’m sure it sickens many Koreans as well – just look at the suicide rates in Korea.

    But through all this, I think the author is forgetting a rather important perspective – the perspective of Asian women. Why do you think there are so many White man-Asian women couples? For many of the Asian women I’ve spoken to, it definitely is not only because of the looks. What it seems to come down to is a sense of self worth, or lack thereof, that they feel they don’t receive from a rather patriarchical Asian culture. So in order to gain that, they feel they have to look elsewhere. I believe this is unfortunate, but I cannot wholeheartedly deny what they are feeling. This lack of self-confidence in Asian men exudes in almost every facet of Asian society, especially in the treatment of women.

    I hope this makes some sense. I just woke up and I have yet to have my cup of coffee.

  142. n wrote:

    @Michelle
    Yes, I will clarify.

    “i must be bitter today because when i read all the bw saying am are hot i suspect that for many men that makes it worse. being desired by only the least desired group just makes people complain “that’s the best i can do” and sometimes run further because to date the race of last resort would confirm that they indeed can’t do “better””

    Let me see if I can explain. I think a great many black women feel that in the US they are regarded as being the lowest on the totem pole in terms of desirability as a long term mate. And there are indeed men of many races who consider black women to be the least desireable as partners.

    Have you ever known a person who feels unattractive and undesirable and then when it is pointed out that X,Y and Z like him/her, the person gets even more upset because X, Y and Z are fat/geeks/poor/fanboys/goths/preps etc..? Instead of feeling better, this often confirms to some people that indeed they ARE unattractive to desirable people (desirable to THEM) and only attractive to undesirable people.

    I know, for example, women who have gained weight or who have large buttocks who either believe or are told by others “The only man that will want you is a black man”. And instead of feeling like- I’m ok, I’m desireable by someone they feel worse.
    AND, they resent the attention. Its not just race, many people find it insulting when people they consider their inferiors show appreciation. Its like- “How dare you act as if we are on the same level,can you not see I am BETTER than you?”

    I’m NOT at all saying I believe ANYONE is less worthy or valuable than others. Just that I’ve seen this a lot and its a reaction I fear in this situation.

  143. Jake wrote:

    #138 Stephen wrote:

    “But through all this, I think the author is forgetting a rather important perspective – the perspective of Asian women. Why do you think there are so many White man-Asian women couples? For many of the Asian women I’ve spoken to, it definitely is not only because of the looks. What it seems to come down to is a sense of self worth, or lack thereof, that they feel they don’t receive from a rather patriarchical Asian culture. So in order to gain that, they feel they have to look elsewhere. I believe this is unfortunate, but I cannot wholeheartedly deny what they are feeling. This lack of self-confidence in Asian men exudes in almost every facet of Asian society, especially in the treatment of women.”

    I think that the Asian woman’s perspective is very important too: you can’t have one without the other (he said, she said).

    Asian American women have the highest suicide rates amongst all racial groups in the U.S., and my guess is that this is obliquely related to the high suicide rates in Asia (Japan and Korea in particular), since the majority of Asian Americans are not more than 2nd Generation, and are therefore strongly influenced by the ‘mother country’ and it’s social norms/prejudices.

    But it’s not only the oppressive male patriarchy at play, IMO. It’s the sense of ‘worthlessness’ that comes from the distorted (Westernized) beauty standards Stephen talks about.

    1. “Your nose isn’t pointy enough at the tip, and you have a flat profile.”

    2. “You don’t have thin, long calves – those “daikon” legs are unacceptable.

    3. “You don’t have big eyes with folds in your eyelids.”

    4. “You don’t have a narrow “v-shaped” jawline – it’s too square.”

    ^ That’s just the tip of the iceberg. I’ve seen that show “I AM A MODEL” on IMAGINASIAN TV on cable. It’s a Korean reality series about all these Korean female models that dream of going to New York City to become world famous, like Hye Park. But if you think about it – the whole show revolves around a CENTRAL PREMISE – to attain the heights of celebrity and success by plugging one’s self into a paradigm of white beauty. These wannabe models are essentially trying to attain whiteness – and worst of all – the millions of impressionable young Korean girls who watch this will be taught to subliminally aspire to that goal as well. To strive for white (male) acceptance, to be a white woman.

    Don’t you people think that it’s at least somewhat plausible that some Asian women with wrecked self-esteem (owing to these outrageous beauty standards) *project* their inferiority complexes through their mate choice?

    I have never once heard of a Korean woman from Korean lusting after the ‘broad nose and lips’ of a black man. I’ve only heard talk about blue eyes, small faces, and blonde hair coming from the mouths of Korean women.

    In conclusion, I’ll bet my last dollar that it’s a wide ‘net’ of factors that contribute to the Asian female’s abysmal self-esteem – this often (though not always) precipitates her (white) mate choice – which in turn negatively affects the self-esteem and self-perception of Asian (American) men.

    It’s a never-ending cycle of hurt caused by a racist, Eurocentric society and its now globalized value set.

  144. Jay wrote:

    shorter n:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PairTheSpares

    “While it’s nice to see Charlie and Doris get a happy ending of their own, this device can very easily reek of red string puppetry and make viewers suspect that the creator just paired them off to permanently get them out of the main couple’s way. ”

    Except it’s whole race/gender combinations instead of just two people.

    I think it’s just that people resent “relationships of convenience” more than a judgement thing – at least I desperately hope so.

  145. Anon wrote:

    @n – COSIGN, sorry for the caps, but I 100% agree with your assessment. Seen it before in action myself. I am even a bit frightened of it even being brought to bear here because I don’t want anyone thinking, that we’re “guilting” people, and or playing “oppression olympics”, but I am extremely refreshed that you had the daddy bags to put it out there.

    Tony Jaa, is one of my “fantasy land” baby daddies lol. There are too many smokin guys of asian descent for me to list. But, I grew up around lots of people. Cambodian, Thai, Korean, Tongan, Samoan, Mexican, Black(that’s me), Chinese, Filipino and kinda generally non – white…so my attraction to hot men, especially hot men of color, is no surprise. True story, my Hmong friend had a crush on me, though his sister told me he was afraid to pursue me for fear of reprisal from their parents, so meh. I was told by a Fijian guy that I was beautiful, and given a tropical white flower, courtship style, so hey, it’s not all bad.

  146. Mickey wrote:

    n says:

    “Have you ever known a person who feels unattractive and undesirable and then when it is pointed out that X,Y and Z like him/her, the person gets even more upset because X, Y and Z are fat/geeks/poor/fanboys/goths/preps etc..? Instead of feeling better, this often confirms to some people that indeed they ARE unattractive to desirable people (desirable to THEM) and only attractive to undesirable people.”

    This is interesting because I am familiar with the opposite. Person of group A likes persons of groug B, but B doesn’t give A the time of day. Person of group C finds A attractive, so A starts making a play for C and B is no longer on the list.

    Emily Monroy, a columnist who has written countless articles for IR online publications, has talked about this, in her case, being a white woman who did not receive any attention from white males and ended up dating POC, including Asians, because they were the ones stepping to her. She even talks about the stereotypes of WM who date outside of their race, but that is another story.

    http://www.urbanmozaik.com/member_fea_archives/01mar_arc_fea_sex.html

  147. Lizzy wrote:

    This is a great post, I am also part Asian part white, and know exactly what you mean.

  148. Tracey S. wrote:

    I am as white as the come, (tall slim blond blue eyed) and I swear til the day I die, the hottest man I have ever known is Korean. I grew up in Torrance, CA- my high school was almost 50/50 white and Asian. I think growing up where I did – growing up with so many Asian friends really helped debunk the either/or conundrum of the Asian stereotype in this country- if 300 of your classmates are Asian, they can’t all be effeminate nerds. They ALSO can be smart, gorgeous, athletic, and fun to be around. And you want stereotypes- growing up in Torrance , it was well understood that if you were lucky to be half anything AND Asian- it was like hitting the genetic jackpot. Anyways, keep your head up. There are plenty of women in So Cal of all races who think Asian men are hot. This country is just slow to progress. But in the mean time, more for me! ;)

  149. RL wrote:

    I’d like to suggest you add Tim Kang from the Mentalist and various wonderful commercials to your list. At least among my friends, he has a large and very adoring following.

  150. Jason wrote:

    Amusing and at the same time sadly true (in most part). The disproportionate number of interracial couples involving non-Asian male and Asian female is exactly due to CVT’s reasoning. Girls (no matter what race they are) just don’t see Asian men as attractive due to the social programming that we are more than ever subjected to. That being said, my girlfriend (white American) and I (Korean) have been seeing a slowly growing number of other Asian male and non-Asian female couple sightings. It should be noted that I am in NYC where there is a Perhaps we are starting to infiltrate the mass media (with a lot more movies that aren’t silly amateur dubbed kung-fu movies), or maybe Asian guys are starting to adapt in imitating their non-Asian role models. God knows that I’m two steps closer to being “white” than I am “Korean.” … This all probably plays into some type of racist ideal, the fact that we have to try our best to be white to be a viable choice for most women. I wish there was a way to change the way people viewed things, but unfortunately, until the mass media tells us it’s okay, the majority of society will continue milling on like the droids they were meant to be.

  151. Katie wrote:

    A white woman here who married an Asian (Korean) man. I know my husband experienced quite a lot of rejection, growing up almost the only Asian in a white community (he was adopted by a white family). I hope things are different for our mixed-race son.

  152. CassandraSays wrote:

    I’m another white woman who’s never excluded Asian men from dating consideration, and never understood why other people did. I mean intellectually I know why – media analysis, it’s useful, you know? – but on a gut level it just seems ridiculous to label an entire racial group unattractive.

    CVT is right that the media plays a huge role in this, which is why, despite boy band-ish stuff not being my cup of tea at all, I’m delighted to see Rain getting some media attention. I’m a music journalist, and I’ve been trying to make sure that all the Japanese bands that have started touring here over the past few years get some coverage. That process is…interesting. There’s one editor I work with who won’t let me even mention the fact that the guys are attractive and that’s why teenage girls are lining up to see them – if I include any positive reference to their appearance she makes me edit it out. This editor is white. Another editor I work with seems to have no problem with me referencing the fact that the bands’ sexual appeal to women/girls is a big part of their success. She’s Korean. Hmm, seeing a pattern here?

    Also, the white editor was absolutely fine with me mentioning that the WOMEN in a Japanese punk band were pretty. So yeah, people who’re arguing that CVT is being too sensitive – no, he isn’t.

    RE The request to make sure that young Asian men get to hear that they’re considered attractive and generally getting more positive images of Asian men into the American media – hey man, I’m trying! I do notice that there seems to be far less resistance to the idea that Asian men can be hot among teenagers than among older women, so it seems like things are starting to change, and I do think that media exposure is what’s making the difference.

  153. CassandraSays wrote:

    I’m another white woman who’s never excluded Asian men from dating consideration, and never understood why other people did. I mean intellectually I know why – media analysis, it’s useful, you know? – but on a gut level it just seems ridiculous to label an entire racial group unattractive.

    CVT is right that the media plays a huge role in this, which is why, despite boy band-ish stuff not being my cup of tea at all, I’m delighted to see Rain getting some media attention. I’m a music journalist, and I’ve been trying to make sure that all the Japanese bands that have started touring here over the past few years get some coverage. That process is…interesting. There’s one editor I work with who won’t let me even mention the fact that the guys are attractive and that’s why teenage girls are lining up to see them – if I include any positive reference to their appearance she makes me edit it out. This editor is white. Another editor I work with seems to have no problem with me referencing the fact that the bands’ sexual appeal to women/girls is a big part of their success. She’s Korean. Hmm, seeing a pattern here?

    Also, the white editor was absolutely fine with me mentioning that the WOMEN in a Japanese punk band were pretty. So yeah, people who’re arguing that CVT is being too sensitive – no, he isn’t

  154. Lynda wrote:

    I have a hard time convincing my boyfriend of how truly attractive he is. And I think a big part of that is due exactly to what CVT was saying.

    And may I just say that Dante Brasco(Rufio) and Paolo Montalban(Cinderella) are both superhot supertalented Filipino actors that are in almost nothing? For shame!…and while I’m at it and this completely unrelated (maybe?) What about Gina Torres who is also superhot and supertalented (we will forgive her Cleopatra 2525) why does she not have her own sci-fi action show by now?!

  155. pg wrote:

    “A long time ago, I posted a youtube video by this random Asian-American high school student. In it, the kid rambles – as kids do – but it is mostly focused on the “pros and cons of being Asian.” There are a lot of cons. As he visibly becomes shaken and his head drops, describing how it hurts to get ignored by the girls all the time, and teased, and feeling low because of his race . . .”

    I would really love to see this video. Does anyone have the link?

    Thanks!

  156. DaniL wrote:

    @n
    I’ve reread your original post and the post explaining it, and to be honest, it still bothers me. I don’t understand why it would make you bitter that some black women find Asian men attractive. I also don’t see how you can compare the situation to that of women who gain weight and their attractiveness to black men. In the example you gave, attractiveness is being compared to a typically white-ideal standard (thin). A person who would make such a remark is playing into that standard to basically put someone down.
    That’s not what’s happening here. Here, you have individuals saying that despite the white standard of beauty and media depictions, they find Asian men attractive. What bothers you? It’s a group of women saying they don’t agree with how Asian men are depicted in the media. Are the opinions of the black women on this board somehow more irksome or less worthy than that of others? Do the opinions of white women or biracial women on this board make you bitter? If I went onto a board and read comments by Asian men that despite the media representation of my race and gender, they found black women attractive, I would see that as a postive thing, regardless of how Asian men fit into to society’s standard of beauty. I would read it for what it is: a positive comment about black female beauty.
    IMO, you’re falling for the same bulls**t that seems to be making you so bitter. Thanks for that.