SBF Seeks Social Validation: Why Are So Many Black Women Single?!?!?

by Special Correspondent Wendi Muse

I am 26 years old, have a college degree, and middle class. I am typically well-dressed and well-groomed. I have never been called ugly, quite the opposite, and I speak several languages. I am nice, courteous, and well-spoken. My big “flaw”? I’m black, female, and single.

At least according to the world of Helena Andrews, whose classist, heteronormative, and strikingly self-defeatist attempt at explaining the “Big Marriage Gap” (from now on referred to as the “BMG”) for black women in comparison to their non-black female peers in their 20s and 30s, is not only oversimplified, but a typical regurgitation of anecdotes about black female dating (or lack thereof) we see in the news every few months. While Nadra pointed out most of the flaws in Andrews’ reasoning in her piece “Successful, Black and Lonely,” the first of several Racialicious pieces on Andrews’ original article for the Washington Post, I plan to venture away from criticism and more into the territory of uncovering the elusive “why” Andrews so poorly investigates.

While many articles have focused on the statistics of black women being on the low end of the national statistics for women rushing to the alter, the nation’s marriage rates seem to have been on a steady decline for quite some time, particularly as rights were afforded to those who cohabitated, as the increasing pressure for costly weddings were met with not-so-sufficient bank accounts and pocketbooks, and the meaning of family shifted to include single parents, same-sex couples with adopted children, divorced couples, and so on. Marriage was no longer viewed through the same cultural lens as it was in years past. It became less obligatory in American culture and more of a privileged option for those who fell within the scope of eligibility and who had the financial resources to afford it (or the time to head over to Vegas for a drive-thru ceremony).

But aside from changing views of marriage, views of women and their societal roles, as a whole, had shifted. Women were increasingly gaining more roles as leaders, planners, and players in higher levels of companies. They were becoming financially independent, self-sufficient beyond the bounds of their families, fathers, and other male counterparts. So why is it that as black women embraced these norms (though many had been participating in some of these practices well in advance of more formal, white-led movements as a result of economic factors and the shifted familial dynamics resulting from slavery), they were chastised for doing so?

Sure, some of these practices, as I mention above, were not embraced by choice. Not every woman wants to be the breadwinner or the unexpected head of the household, particularly as some of her more privileged peers find comfort in the security of marriage and other sources of financial support. But in a racist and sexist twist, many of these same elements of “modern womanhood” that white women were applauded for taking up were devalued and even demonized when black women fulfilled the same roles. When coupled with pre-existing stereotypes, one of them being that black women are already naturally inclined to be overly assertive, the roles were not seen in a positive light. A white woman with a high-level, well-paying corporate gig was “making something of herself” and “engaging in an empowering grasp at grappling with patriarchy.” A black woman was simply acting out on her “natural” skill of being bossy (ahem, a boss?) and assertive, so there was no surprise. As white women continue to be portrayed as delicate flowers and black women the angry worker bees, these roles only seemed natural, leaving black female ascension in the workplace to be considered with far less surprise, awe, and admiration. That is not to say that white women in the workplace are not assumed to be bad attitude-laden, overly assertive, or power hungry, but such behavioral assumptions, as a result of white privilege, are associated with their being female as opposed to being both female AND white. Take the example of single motherhood and you end up with the same results.The expected behavior is not considered the result of some racial and gendered stereotype that follows them around at every turn on the page or click of the remote button.

It’s easy to get mad at Andrews and say that she is falling into the typical media trap here, but part of what she says in based in truth, and I don’t think that should be ignored. It’s just that people are generally lazy and state a problem, but never follow through with an explanation or a more guided understanding of what causes the problem and how it can be fixed. Usual answers about how to fix the BMG is simply for black women to be less selective about their mates, once again, a sexist and racist request. As some of our commenters mentioned, they found their mates in unlikely places and in terms of class, education level, or even interests, shared little with them. However, to make “lowering standards” a universal request for black women is problematic because a) it’s assuming that said woman is somehow not worthy of or should not be reaching for the best of the dating pool, b) that equals for said black women are clearly looking to date someone non-black, and c) because it seems to rarely be advice given to men, who are somehow left out of the whole wedding scramble to begin with and left to pursue marriage and relationships, if at all, at their own pace.

It’s also hard to ignore Andrews’ thoughts on stereotypes. The title of her upcoming novel speaks volumes on its own. Bitch Is the New Black is a telling statement. Could the real solution to the BMG and problem of black females being generally undesirable mates (if statistics alone are analyzed, without bearing in mind people who choose to remain unmarried and/or non-heterosexual couplings) boil down to squashing some of the stereotypes that have yet to un-stick? Self-fulfilling prophecy based on statistics, all the countless articles on black women and the BMG, the terrible media images of black women, and the lack of regard for and appreciation of black female beauty by American (and arguably just about every other) society do terrible things to one’s self-esteem. I leave my house every morning knowing that no matter how nice I look that day, how intelligent I am, how well I do my job, or even how polite I am, someone out there is going to see me and think black and female equate to bitch.

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine recently about relationships, and he (a black man) noted that he is hardly ever inclined to date black women because they are “too bitchy” and cause “too much drama.” I was quick to note that I was neither bitchy nor a drama queen, unless somehow provoked by drastic actions like infidelity or lying, and that I know women of multiple races who have equally as troublesome behavioral traits that are not regularly associated to their group simply because they are not black. My friend responded that I may be somehow different because I am southern, and that in his experience, black women meant trouble. Given, however, that I don’t wear a Rebel Flag t-shirt around proclaiming some ironic sense of southern pride, people who see me won’t know the difference. Beyond my statehood, I suppose I also have my light skin to thank for whatever favorable assumptions are made in terms of my appearance when positive. Ever notice that when two or more black women are characters in a film or tv show, the darker (and oftentimes largest) of them is often the loudest, meanest, or most dramatic? The lighter skinned black woman is often made to seem the most physically attractive or appealing based on personality.

Could it be that people were buying into these stereotypes, treating black women differently, and then the women hold their anger based on said treatment until the point of explosion, and thus the recycling of the stereotype? I often feel the need to actually behave more passively or politely than normal in some circumstances, particularly around people whom I do not know well, simply to avoid adding to the stereotype, censoring myself in situations when my innate “black bitchiness” (read: normal level of assertiveness) might actually do me some good. Are these articles simply adding to the cycle? Black women are not wanted, so they internalize that and put up a wall, behaving as if no one wants them, and thus failing to attract proper mates?

Beyond these questions, I also wonder if blaming black women is necessarily the path anyone should take when discussing this topic. Women should be viewed as individuals, and as Nadra mentions, many other women have the same hang ups and gripes as they search for men. Even though many more of my non-black female peers are in serious relationships, engaged, or married, that is not to say that the BMG rests as a fear solely for black women. Women of all races are raised to believe that relationships and ultimately marriage are the best way of achieving self-satisfaction and success thanks to being inundated by bridal imagery and tales early on. But black women are hit over the head with additional images that would give even the strongest person a complex including, but not limited to, criticism of typical physical attributes associated with women of African descent (hair, body types, skin color) and constant comparison to their non-black female peers in terms of behavior (general personality, sexual openness, intelligence, values and judgment). As physical beauty is often viewed as one of the key factors in snagging a male partner, it’s not surprising that black women like Helena Andrews find themselves not only second guessing their physical appearance, but also taking their reflection further when even the perfect “outside” doesn’t welcome men to get to know the matching “inside.”

So while I find Andrews’ piece problematic on many levels, I wonder if that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Is there a way that we can address this issue without turning into a game of black male slandering or black female blaming? Could a shift in the ways we think about relationships and marriage be at the root of the BMG, or is there some greater cultural task we need to tackle, particularly when it comes to images of black women in the media?

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Entitled to Love « Fairly Prejudiced on 22 Dec 2009 at 1:54 am

    [...] sites have done a top-notch job of analyzing why this type of story is so tiresome, so I feel no need to [...]

Comments

  1. Eva wrote:

    “Could it be that people were buying into these stereotypes, treating black women differently, and then the women hold their anger based on said treatment until the point of explosion, and thus the recycling of the stereotype?”

    Yes. It’s the self fulfilling prophecy. If people treat black women like we’re going to be hostile, it can be really upsetting and when you react to that, you’re called hostile. That’s crazy making.

  2. Val wrote:

    I wonder why no one ever compares marriage rates for college educated White women from the 1970’s to the marriage rates of college educated Black women from the 1990’s? I have a suspicion that there might be a similar pattern of less marriage for these women.

    But if someone did that and found similarities then I suppose journalists wouldn’t be able to rely on “Black pathology” to explain this.

  3. Wendi Muse wrote:

    exactly, val. i sort of pick at that myself in this piece. where is andrews’ (or anyone else’s for that matter) data analysis in terms of a growing employment sector with women becoming part of the force? progress happens at different stages for different people and this may simple be a statistic repeating itself, though with a different set of players and at a different time…

  4. mieko wrote:

    Hmmm. Thanks for writing this, it really made me think. I’d had some of these fears lingering around in my mind “be nice be nice, if you tell someone off they’ll see you as the angry black woman, and that’ll make it worse for everyone” but I’ve never really confronted them till now. It really does speak to that talk Carmen gave about stereotypes preventing you from being yourself, doesn’t it?
    And I’d never really thought about the angry black woman stereotype as compared to the “angry feminist” stereotype before.

  5. Meg wrote:

    I think talking about why marriage is considered compulsory is probably a good way of shifting the topic/blame off black women. If we assume that the percentage of these women who are heterosexual have agency, and are choosing not to marry any of the men they’ve encountered, then it might be about their options, or it might be about marriage itself. Interesting questions in the latter case are, a) what about marriage is a raw deal? (plenty, despite the subsidies involved) and b) why is the media so torn up over that choice? I’d want to see some hard statistics on the prevalence of the “desire marriage, but can’t find someone” state over “ambivalence regarding marriage, erring on the side of not-married” or “don’t desire marriage at all” before I’d start buying that the problem is that black women can’t find partners.

    Excellent point about putting all the focus on women. They are the ones for whom marriage seems to be made socially mandatory, so wouldn’t they have the greatest incentive to lower their standards as far as possible already? Perhaps if we did wish to compel everyone to marry, upping the pressure on single men would be more effective than focusing yet more attention on people who are already being penalized, socially and economically, for being single.

    Clearly the correct conversation to be having is not why so many black women are not getting married, but why so many women of other races are.

  6. Orville wrote:

    I am sure young black women want to get married but I don’t think they should put so much emphasis on the statistics.

    Why is Wendy Muse comparing black women to white women? It doesn’t make sense. Also, why is Wendy Muse treating black women as though they are a monolithic group? Every black woman is different and every black woman’s experience is different.

    I am sure there are black women that don’t want to be married and dont’ want kids and want a career.

    The interesting thing I notice is I don’t see these articles about young black men and marriage.

    It seems to me young black men aren’t focusing on finding JUST a black wife BUT a WIFE. And I think black women should have the same mentality. These articles that are published about black women and marriage seem to focus on the anxieties of black women that want black men.
    My question is why?

    So why are there these anxieties from young black women?

    Why don’t some young black women explore their sexuality more and look beyond JUST BLACK MEN?

    Why not just meet a guy regardless of his race?

    For one thing in America the white population is much larger than the African American population.

    So of course more whites are going to be married than blacks.
    Also, black people are getting married.
    The statistics don’t show if the people that are married are happy or not either.
    For some people marriage isn’t the most important thing.

    I think one of the anxieties black women have is being viewed as “masculine” or as “too strong”. Maybe I have a different point of view but I actually believe it is a POSITIVE strength that black women can be ASSERTIVE.

    My mother and my sister are black women and they don’t take crap from anybody!
    The black women I know personally also do not take shit from anyone. I understand black women also want to be seen as feminine but being a woman does not mean you have to be a doormat.

    In fact, white women have been stereotyped for centuries as being doormats and the white mainstream feminist movement has worked hard to be remove this stereotype of white womanhood.

    I think Andrews is just finding a gimmick and her niche. Andrews knows people want to read her work.

  7. lunanoire wrote:

    This is admittedly a side note, but it is infuriating that educating girls and women in developing countries is presented as a good thing, but having so many educated AA girls and women is often presented as a bad thing in the national discourse.

  8. Wendi Muse wrote:

    hi orville,

    thanks for your comment, and i understand your concern. i am not really speaking about black women as a monolithic group, nor am i comparing them directly to white women without reason. i often cite “nonblack women” in the piece, but refer mainly to white women because that’s the focus the media takes. this piece is my response to andrews’ piece and that of generally MSM-based pieces that only talk about white women as compared to black women as well.

    i also think it’s important to note that i am discussing media portrayals of black women and not black women themselves. i think that’s important to remember when considering why i am talking about black women as a monolithic group…i’m talking about the image, not the women themselves.

  9. Wendi Muse wrote:

    i also should add that, orville, i share some of the same frustrations you express (particularly the one about focusing solely on black male/female relationships and not really thinking about interracial relationships or the idea of not getting married at all as valid), though i think that your criticism is better directed at pieces like andrews’ as opposed to some of the responses here?

    have you checked out the responses on the washington post piece? interesting stuff…

  10. mieko wrote:

    @Orville-

    Also, I think the problem stretches beyond black women looking for black mates. The stereotype is pervasive, and affects us at work, at school, and in relationships with non-black men and women as well. I don’t know of anybody who wants a “bitch” for a partner, so to be portrayed as one is really difficult.

  11. mieko wrote:

    “I also should add that, Orville, i share some of the same frustrations you express (particularly the one about focusing solely on black male/female relationships and not really thinking about interracial relationships or the idea of not getting married at all as valid)”
    - I agree with Wendi on that. I remember once in high school, our (black, male) superintendent gave a speech on the achievement gap, particularly when it came to black males. He said something to the effect of: Black males need to shape it up, because you’re getting left behind, and if you do, who are the black females going to marry? And I thought to myself- ummm, whoever we want?!?!

  12. Kisha wrote:

    Thank you for saying what I felt..

  13. Patricia Kayden wrote:

    Actually, I don’t believe that Black women have a problem getting married. I haven’t and neither have any of the scores of Black women I know, who are happily married, career-minded, successful women.

    Black women aren’t the only ones who have problems with the opposite sex at times. For some reason, Black women have allowed themselves to be stereotyped as lonely, needy, and desperate for men.

    I wish the media would come and interview me and other Black women who are in long term, committed relationships. We are out there too. In fact, the majority of Black women in this country get married at one point in their lives. It is my understanding that the percentage of single Black women who will never get married is 42%.

    Let’s accentuate the positive for a change!!

  14. JL wrote:

    I’m concerned at the implication that married women are inherently less self-sufficient and not the breadwinners or heads of households, or that being a leader, planner, or player is incompatible with marriage (or at least, less compatible than being unmarried). There’s some chance that I am misinterpreting what you are saying.

    Beyond that, I like this piece. Black women are sadly presented as angry, unattractive, and otherwise undesirable, by society. Society shouldn’t then be surprised when its members buy into these pernicious attitudes.

  15. andrea wrote:

    A few thoughts:

    1. Many of the Black women I know and love want to or have married Black men because doing so reflects a personal political ideal. They want to increase the number of strong Black marriages and loving relationships and want to raise strong Black kids. I respect that and don’t understand why Black women are the only ones criticized for making the explicit choice to look for partners of the same race. No one questions Latinas that prefer Latino men and, while White women who marry White men are considered normal, White women that marry non-White men are portrayed by the MSM as extraordinarily progressive and brave.

    2.I really wish the responses to Andrew’s ideas would extend beyond a Black/White frame. The MSM asks “What’s wrong with Black women and Black men that Black women can’t find partners to marry?” That is, itself, part of a larger project of racialization affects White women, Black women, Asian women, Latina women, etc.

    Just take a look at OKCupids recent stats that reveal an hierarchy of the desirability of women of different races to men of all races. Those stats scream stereotypes about women of all races. Yes, Black women have it the worst, but all women need to look at how we both participate and are positioned in the broader project of racializing our desirability.

    3. I wish there would be some discussion of the pressures to marry or otherwise couple up that arise from within our racial communities. Why does the MSM consider it more tragic for a Black, Latina, A/PI, or Middle eastern woman who is single after 35, while White women are seen as independent, or feminist? I suspect that its because while the MSM portrays us as more naturally feminine, prone to motherhood (indeed, some of us can’t wait till after our teenage years to reproduce!), and domestic (natural care-givers), we have reified these traits as positive and perpetuated them in our own communities as evidence that we are indeed more family oriented and in that regard, better, than White women.

    That idea makes it ever more important for W.O.C. to find socially and culturally acceptable partners explicitly for marriage, and I don’t know any of budding romance that has ever benefited from socially imposed pressure. I mean, maybe we women of color aren’t given enough freedom and time to choose when and with whom and on what terms to partner, potential partners know this and therefore are less willing to abide by such constraints, and (ta da!) W.O.C. are seen as less desirable partners. God forbid we any of us conform to the stereotype by so as much as expressing a desire for stable, monogamous love in our lives, I mean, damn, talk about signing your own death wish.

    Keep the articles and comments coming, I’m loving the discussion and am forwarding links like a madwoman!

  16. Shadow And Act wrote:

    I’d say the reasons you give are all valid – prevailing stereotypes, socialized understandings and expectations, and more. There isn’t a single reason for this “phenomenon.”

    And I think it all continuously feeds on itself, so much that perception starts to become reality, and some might be talking themselves out of the race before even entering it, which then manifests itself within the person (or people), which potential mates immediately pick up, and are turned off by (in either direction, male or female).

    And, yes, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There’s a Pandora’s box of societal ills facing black people (and frankly all people) that are at the root of this, which aren’t really being adequately addressed. I can’t list every single one, but, suffice it to say that what we’re witnessing has been long in the making, and so, we need to essentially, methodically, retrace our steps uncovering certain truths that will help with our understanding of all this.

    And since I have zero faith that we’ll ever go down that path to address root causes, it seems more sensible to look forward, and ask the question – where do we go from here? Essentially, this “why are so many single black women single” question is one that I think has been asked several times over the last several years, accompanied by articles like Helena’s that inspire contentious and often fruitless debate between black man and women.

    We can establish some truths about the matter, whether it’s the education gap, or the “colorism” issues, etc, that ail us, but after we do that, which we’ve done quite a bit of already, what happens next?

    I’d say, you take matters into your own hands and do something about it, instead of continuing to pity one’s situation – whether it’s expanding one’s dating pool to include men of other groups, or rethinking convention and tradition, or something else… I don’t know.

    As I see it, it’s really not all that different from those instances when black people blame whites for almost every hurdle black people face, or are looking to white people to “save us,” without considering how we can actually help ourselves. Articles like Helena’s read in very much the same way, except, instead of just race, gender is an additional divide.

  17. lula wrote:

    I was a lunch today with a couple of colleagues, me Black and female along with another one of my colleagues and two white females, one older and married the other young and with a live in boyfriend. I’m single, never been married, and my black female colleague is a single mother who just got out of another relationship.

    What I learned from this lunch is that among some Black women there is such a negative outlook on our prospects that we carry with us! It’s disturbing and sad really. I listened as my Black female colleague as she ranted about how basically all Black men are really f’ed up. I have to tell you, most white females I meet really tend to have a positive outlook and I never hear them do the same. I think that’s really key.

    We as Black women have really got to start first believing that the opportunity exist and honestly, we have to first believe the opportunity exist with Black men. Thing is White women, even those dating and marrying men of other races, still believe White men are an option and it’s that belief that broadens their options, not the thought that no white man will want them so they have to search elsewhere.

    There’s so much I have to say about this issue really being single myself, but honestly I’ve moved beyond analyzing why “Black men don’t like me” which I really know isn’t the truth. Black men love me! Now, I’m more interested in actively finding the one for me. This means really moving beyond my comfort zone, i.e., for me, hanging out at Sports bars, going to Hip Hop clubs, doing more guy stuff instead of forming Book clubs with my sisters. I’ve just learned that the act of finding a mate is really counterintuitive to they way I was going about it before and these days, instead of being scared or overanalyzing I’m just ready to jump in and play the game.

    I suggest the rest of my sistas do the same.

  18. AnonyMiss wrote:

    I’m going to wait to read her book before passing any judgement on it but after reading the article in the Washington Post and seeing the video clip where Andrews talks about her book… I’m under the impression that the title is meant to be misleading and it’s also meant to be triggering and to draw you in. Clearly her choice of title has been instrumental in drawing attention to her book. Every blog I’ve read thus far discussing her book has made a big deal about the title so I guess she was smart to choose it because had she chosen something like “Black, Woman, Educated, and Single” I don’t think we would have been as curious or intrigued by it.

    Anyways, as a young single BW in college, I actually very much look forward to the release of this book because this problem is very real to me and while it is kind of depressing to always here about the stats on single BW, I do think we need to keep talking about it until things improve. I don’t see how pretending it doesn’t exist helps any.

  19. BS wrote:

    I agree with Orville: It doesn’t make since to compare Black women marriage rates to White women marriage rates being that 60% (or somewhere in that range) of Americans are White and 13% (or somewhere in that range) of Americans are Black. I am a black woman and although I didn’t have a serious relationship before I became an adult, I am educated, employed, married, and under the age of 30 (for the sake of Ms. Andrews’ article). The fact that I expressed interest in my now husband before we began dating also helped. Sometimes, Black women, we’ve got to do the talkin’.

    I think that besides the population factor, it has to do with how the person portrays themselves, in addition to societal/media perceptions which we, oftentimes as Black Americans, contribute to, unfortunately. We oftentimes put ourselves in these situations, such as having too many kids at an early age, which MOST men don’t find attractive, not even in the ‘hood.

    I also despise the fact that there are more articles, documentaries and such that are talking about the BMG issue but there are next to none articles about the SOLUTION! What’s the solution, people? I think the issue of BMG definitely goes both ways. Blaming one person when both , or more, are responsible just isn’t fair.

    Just hold it together and do you.

  20. Beth wrote:

    I’m proud of Soror Helena- congrats on all the success!

  21. reality wrote:

    Not a huge issue, but if we are talking about bitchy black women as the stereotype, why the angry photo for this post? Doesn’t seem to help any.

  22. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Lula,
    My wife tells a story to her colleagues often about how she and I met. She and her girlfriend decided that they’d get themselves “bunned” up i.e. in a serious relationship. So, they brainstormed and figured out where do the type of guys they WANT to meet hang out. And they’d go to a spot that each lady had picked out to meet “her type of guy.” My wife went first. She wanted a guy that like to go out and have fun. A nice guy. A guy that smoked cigars or wasn’t against it. She wanted a man with a solid career. Great. They picked a place in downtown DC. A cigar lounge, actually.
    That very night my future wife was getting gussied up to go out and meet a man? I was in bed asleep. Long week of business travel, and my friends wanted to go out that night. They showed up at my apartment, literally dragged me out of bed, so while they waited, I got showered up and put on the only thing left in my closet (the only suit I didn’t wear on my trip.) Two hours later, unbeknownst to me, I was sitting at the bar with my future wife, ordering cocktails.
    I never even saw her coming.

    At some point, folks, as black people, we’ve got to live and let live. I used to get so uptight about meeting a good black woman, and I could never find one that would go out with a guy like me. I was “too nice, not tall enough, and didn’t make enough money.” I was actually told this by a lady once. I had pretty much given up the idea of getting married, too. I figured that I was a man, and sometimes men don’t end up married, and that was OK. I could just date until I got too old to date anymore. ;-)

    Turns out that right around the time I’d stopped looking? There was someone looking for me.

    I think my scenario would make a better book/movie than the typical date-movie crap that Helena Andrews is stirring up. “Cornrows?” WTF?!? We’ve seen “Two Can Play That Game” or whatever movie involves Morris Chestnut and Gabrielle Union. And I love watching those two on-screen. As long as Ms. Andrews’ movie ends up being funny and smart without being too insulting? Fine. I realize she’s got to sell tickets and everything, so to each her own, I guess.

  23. ashlynn wrote:

    For starters,

    When we speak about Black females in general, have we even considered that there are a significant portion of us who, even if they wanted to, ARE LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED TO BE MARRIED?

    Yes. Every time I read these articles about Black women, it’s ALWAYS in relationship to Black men. So not only has the MSM, and Black-focused media as well, silenced Black women twice- for be Black and a woman- but some of u are silenced three times- for being Black, a woman, AND a lesbian. Good job.

    Moving on, though there are plenty of single Black females, because this articled is framed to make marriage the end all be all, what we also miss is that there’s a huge chunk of Black women, like any women, who choose to be single, or are in long-term relationships who actively choose not to be legally married. My mother was with my stepfather for eight years before they tied the knot, and even now, a year later, it’s as if it never happened (my mother wear so many rings already that you couldn’t tell which is the wedding one. lol). The societal definition of marriage does not validate their relationship; the same idea applies to many Black women that fall under the “single” umbrella as well.

    Now regarding what is left over. In my personal experience, I must admit that I often seek social validation. After being burned a few times too many in my love life, I found myself making nips and tucks at my personality in order to not feel so boxed in by people’s perceptions of black women. Where I was once “too forward”, I became some kind of damsel in distress, in a sense- I had to wait for my romantic interest to make a move, lest I scared him into buying into that “bossy black woman” trope. Once, in a casual setting, I made a joke with someone I liked that I had to raise my voice a bit for him to hear (being some distance away from him). On the way home, all I got from my (black) female friends was that I scared him off (yes, he was white), and now he thinks I’m just another “loud black girl”. Suffice it to say, my love life is still, well, garbage, even with my “changes”(which hurt more than help). The feeling that I had to alter myself to be of interest to anyone else- and yes, anyone else includes black men, who often get an attitude as well when a woman has something to say- was not one that sat well with me. And it shouldn’t sit well with anyone, for that matter.

    To try and answer Wendi’s question, I would have to say that there has to be at least a small degree of shaming and blaming- which really isn’t even that, but more so, awareness, recognizing your place in this issue, and owning your personal contribution to both the problem and the solution. Those things apply to everyone. You have to ask yourself:

    At any point, have I bought into a stereotype about black women and relationships? If so, why? How can I change that?

    At any point, have I ever perpetuated a stereotype about black women and relationships? Or black men, for that matter? Or how other ethnicities perceive both?

    As a black woman, where do I draw the line in regards to what is assertive and what is obnoxious? Am I crossing it, and by doing such, am I promoting ugly stereotypes?

    Or most importantly, how am I representing myself? Am I comfortable with myself? Am I comfortable WITH representing myself?

  24. Wendi Muse wrote:

    for reality (comment 21):
    that pic was chosen with that very purpose. i choose pictures to match the subject matter of my post. the crux of this is that the stereotype hurts us…

  25. Montclair Mommy wrote:

    **”[L]owering standards”…is problematic because…it seems to rarely be advice given to men, who are somehow left out of the whole wedding scramble to begin with and left to pursue marriage and relationships, if at all, at their own pace.”

    I think this is so so true and I believe that it effects women of all races and classes. It seems that the lessened pressure to marry in our current culture (a good thing) has had the result of discouraging men from settling down. In some ways, this is a good thing, you never want someone to settle down just b/c “its time,” but rather b/c they found the right person. The trouble is that, from my experience, women DO still feel the pressure to marry and have children…except now its harder to find someone that really wants to do that. I read someone above saying that white women don’t really bemoan their relationship prospects as much…um…maybe not your white female friends…but, mine? Mine do. ALL the time. Even when they are partnered they are worried that they will never be in a committed marriage or that the guy will leave them. I feel like the differing expectations for men and women is a huge issue and really unfair to women of all races.

  26. Montclair Mommy wrote:

    @andrea: “White women that marry non-White men are portrayed by the MSM as extraordinarily progressive and brave.” Hmm. I always kind of feel that the MSM shows that white women who marry black men are shown as either 1) fat, ugly, white trash, and ’settling’ or 2) comfortable with being passive, steamrolled and/or f-d over by her partner (Elin, anyone?). I guess I see where you are coming from with that statement but I think there is that subtext in liberal media (not MSM) sometimes…but an overt positive encouragement? I just feel that it is really…strikingly untrue. I’m racking my brains trying to think of white female & black/non-white male relationships on sitcoms, movies, etc. that were solid and healthy and in which the woman was portrayed as progressive and brave. I’m not coming up with any…but, then again, I don’t want that much T.V. But if you know of some I would love for you to tell me about them so I can watch and be uplifted (rather than denigrated and ostracized) by my choice. I just keep thinking of Obsessed…and that’s the total opposite. And, IMHO, the (supposed) media image that a IR marriage is “progressive and brave” is just as wrong-headed as is the media image that “strong, solid black marriage” is the best, most politically correct and racially aware choice. It perpetuates the idea that people of like colors need to stick together and that any other choice is crazy and needs to be endlessly justified. I understand why people want to go the route of single-race marriage as it is much easier and more accepted by everyone (including the MSM), but sometimes the person you connect with is of another race. Before I met my husband I thought I had an open mind about who I would date…but I didn’t. I think many women (and men) of all colors are similarly stilted. (Although, I agree with you that it seems black women get more criticism for making the choice to marry within their race.) When I think about how much I would have missed if my husband and I refused to look past each others’ race…it makes me shudder. We would have missed out. Just sayin’.

  27. Tapthepope wrote:

    Just a whimsical speculation BUT
    OKcupid released that data where Asian males are fairly far down the dating chain….
    And here we are are claiming the black women have trouble finding boyfriends…..

    Is it just me or do I see and answer to two similar problems?

  28. Seattle Slim wrote:

    I certainly hope that the author is no longer speaking to the male that said black women are too bitchy and cause too much drama.

  29. Seattle Slim wrote:

    I don’t want to be divisive, but I wonder if non-African-American black women also faced the same obstacles. The reason I say that is because I wonder if they get the benefit of being “foreign”, which is apparently appealing to a country’s native men.

  30. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Okay to actually my thoughts…

    I actually genuinely believe that we may not be having this conversation if black women kept all of their options open. I am not trying to brag, so please don’t take it this way, but I have kept my options open since my earliest dating years in school. Race was inconsequential. I have not been single since 1999 and even then it was a short stint. This debate is saddening for me because as a black woman it’s irritating and hurtful to see that we are apparently being told we hold little value. At the same time, I think black women need to just simply concentrate on finding a man that makes them happy, loves them, respects them. All the other sh*t is irrelevant.

    I’m raising two strong multi-racial kids that will be a benefit to all of their cultural backgrounds. There’s no need to only date a certain group of men because of carrying an unrealistic burden.

    Pursuit of happiness by any means necessary.

  31. Jess wrote:

    OK, I am a stat nerd here.

    Does Helena Andrews provide any statistical data to prove there is a “BMG?”

    I am reminded of the old chestnut that a woman who isn’t married after 30 has almost no statistical chance. (Remember that one fro the 80s?) First, that’s mathematically wrong, and second, it didn’t account for people in long-term relationships where you aren’t married — a more significant part of the population now than it was then, but still.

    Anyhow, I want to know the following (and Wendi, if you checked, let me know!)

    – What is the actual rate of marriage for black women broken down by age/education/income?
    – What is it for white women?
    – What is it for Latina/API?
    – What is the change over time (this will be indicated by the age data from above to some degree)
    – How may are in LTRs that aren’t necessarily married?
    – Once adjusted for those things, is there a BMG? Does Anderson demonstrate that mathematically or is she just repeating conventional wisdom?

    I have a strong suspicion (and I might want to take a look at some of these numbers myself) that the BMG doesn’t exist once you adjust for those factors, or isn’t as big as people think it is.

    Let me put t another way: people are getting married later, for instance, across the board. I can’t see why black people would be any different, since we all live in the same country and are affected by the same factors a lot of the time. And I would be shocked if there was some mysterious X-factor that made black people (or Latinos or Asians) immune from the same demographic trends that have affected, like, every industrialized society so far.

    For instance: people live longer. Think about the fact that if you get married in your twenties, and have children who do the same thing, and their children do that, odds are you will be a great-grandparent when you die. In the US you will probably live to about 80-ish — assuming you make no effort to live longer.

    The other is urbanization. In cities, people tend to have fewer children — it doesn’t matter your race, age, national origin, whatever. That means a lot of the time that fewer people marry as well. (I don’t know how closely it correlates but I suspect it plays into why people wait).

    Why is this so? Cities are expensive to live in and you need no child labor as you do on a farm. Since most people in the US don’t live on farms anymore, the incentive to have loads of kids is less. That also puts a brake on the incentive to marry. People in rural areas marry earlier for that reason. I might add that all of the immigrant groups in which people marry earlier almost always come from places where people are only generation or two removed from rural societies. (You don’t de-acquire children when you move into a city and habits take a while to change).

    Then there’s economic hardship. My parents mentioned this: they noted that as graduate students with no freakin’ income except fellowship money they could contemplate having children and still get by. That isn’t true today. And during the Depression you also saw a big delay in the age of first marriage (and conversely, people getting married earlier in the 1920s, a time of relative prosperity).

    People in their 30s now have often put off marriage precisely because in a city (where, remember, most of us live) it’s expensive and starting families is harder. That won’t stop people from getting married or having children, but it can put a dent in it. (Birth rates during the Depression also fell across the board).

    Note that none of these factors has anything to do with black womens’ attitudes or “assertiveness” or anything like that. None of it has a bit to do with what color you are.

    Without Anderson offering a real, statistical difference between black women and anybody else, and without showing her work, as it were, it seems to me the whole exercise is the same crap that got pulled back in the 80s with “get married before 30 or OMG you will die alone.”

    So, did Anderson provide any numbers (and demonstrate the results) or was she just taking the BMG as a fact? This inquiring mind wants to know.

  32. bdsista wrote:

    @Patricia, so you don’t think 42% of single Black women not getting married is not a problem? That’s 8% shy of 50% that is a huge statistic and a big problem. I am glad that you and your friends are all married and happy, unfortunately many of mine, now 50 who are Doctors, Vets, Lawyers, etc. are in the ranks of the never married and wondering why they are not allowed to have a loving relationship and the chance to have a family? There are lots of really good reasons people want to get married. Married couples do better financially and qualify for easily for home ownership which is the first level building block for building wealth. That is not to say single women don’t own property, but its much easier to qualify for that Jumbo mortgage with two paychecks. Also, quiet as its kept, a lot of AA’s are of the Christian faith which promotes marriage heavily and for many of my Christian friends and myself, marriage facilitates guilt free sex. Sex within marriage is not a sin. Many single Christian AA women struggle with pre marital sex or abstain because they want a serious leading to marriage relationship before they get deeply emotional and intimate. I respect that and its important to discuss the role that religion plays in the area of BW and marriage, especially for middle aged BW.
    @Phil, what’s the name of the lounge? Might go hang out…….

  33. lunanoire wrote:

    Patricia,

    Please explain your environment more. What kind of community do you live in? Are you very involved in your house of worship? I would like to understand how someone can live in a circle of married black people when only 30% of black women are married (yes, the stats are skewed, but still).

    Is it just a minority of a minority living in the same community? Is the community family-focused? Does it have a low cost of living so that people can afford to have more kids? Does it have a relatively stable economy so that fewer couplings are destroyed by financial woes or income/wealth-dispartiy-based resentment? What is your age group? This curious mind wants to know.

  34. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Bdsista #31,
    I met my wife at Ozio. As a funny aside, a few years later, at one of her soror’s wedding, she said, “Honey, that’s a nice suit, and I love it. If you were wearing that when we met, I might’ve given you some.”
    I said, “As a point in fact, honey, I WAS wearing this suit, shirt and tie the night we met. It’s my lucky suit, and everytime I wear it, I get me some.” LOL. The whole table of guests fell out. True story.
    Enough can’t be said for her as far as “being open.” When we met, my base salary was $25,000 a year. With bonuses? I could push it up to the low 40’s. Not exactly a “catch,” right? That’s what I got told by my female friends—I had to make more money. Ummm….DUH? Even with my mother and father knowing how expensive it was for me to pay my own student loans, even if I asked for help? They wouldn’t. And it made me a better man for it. Piece-by-piece, I clawed my way up. Almost six years to the day that I met my wife at Ozio’s? I have a six-figure salary for an influential firm. We bought a house together in a nice DC area suburb. Our son is in the same private school I went to on scholarship except now? We pay for it out of our pocket. We own a luxury car–paid for three years early. We take trips overseas, and save money. No credit card debt. Now, I ask you: did I see that six years ago? No. Did almost every woman I dated up until that point? No. But my wife did. She had faith in me as a black man that, sometimes, I didn’t even have in myself. Some men and women are down for the journey, and some of us aren’t. I was down for it because I had no choice. The path to a six-figure salary for a black man isn’t an easy one. Nor is it that the end of the journey.
    Maybe I’m unique. Maybe I’m more effective in corporate American than I ever gave myself credit for. Maybe I’m lucky to be here. I don’t know. All I know is that I’ve got more work to do even with what my wife and I make.

  35. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @Phil Deeze

    I wish you and your wife much prosperity and happiness! Your stories are so heartwarming! LOL I’m a romance nerd. *le sigh*

  36. eh wrote:

    I’m calling B.S. on these statistics. Why? Well, because many rural, “white” woman get married at a very young age (and later get divorced). It is really hard to get a “control group” or a baseline. It seems like flawed statistics and tired memes are another way to try to make people feel bad about themselves. I do agree that in general more “black” women need to be open to dating outside their “race”. When I was in grad school (in a very white state) there were way more black women then men (way more women then men for all ethnicity and races which is true in most schools btw) some of my friends who were black women complained that there wasn’t anyone to date (meaning no black guys) the most of the black women who were married where married to people of other races (like myself).

    Again, it is a hard comparison to make because there were many white women who were not married. Lots of people have to move out of state to attend the grad schools they want, and then they find themselves in an unfamiliar area, w/out a support network. Many of the other groups at that grad school were not U.S. citizens, although I suspect that they’d would be factor4ed in to these flawed equations.

    I live my life w/out fear, when I first started dating my husband my mother told me that he would NEVER marry me, I ignored her because I say my husband for the person he was not a stereotype. I think women need to stop worrying about if they fit a stereotype, and also stop looking at men (of any race) as just stereotypes.

    Lastly, it also seems like a lot of single “black” women live in cities or states that are notoriously bad for singles (of all races). D.C. is a place that I heard was really tough to find single youngish people,

  37. Golden Silence wrote:

    Lastly, it also seems like a lot of single “black” women live in cities or states that are notoriously bad for singles (of all races). D.C. is a place that I heard was really tough to find single youngish people,

    DC does seem like a hard place to date for Black women. Sure, there are plenty of singles here, but compatibility is the key factor.

    I also agree with your post, eh, about Black women not limiting their options to only Black men. I don’t get why so many do that. I’m not one of those “nothin’ but a brotha” types. I have no problem in dating interracially.

    Another thing I’ve learned is to overcome my being conditioned to wait for guys to come my way. It’s not happening! I want to start taking action and pursue guys myself. I wonder if that could be another issue with Helena and her group. Are they waiting for men to approach them, and just settling for whoever comes their way, as opposed to pursuing guys they’re interested in? Hmm.

  38. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Seattle Slim,
    Thanks. And I share that with the folks on here just to show that there ARE good black men in DC. But I didn’t just spring forth rockin’ Brooks Brothers to work and Ferragamo on my feet. I had to work twice as hard as your average white guy to earn my keep. It costs more to get the American dream. Student loans don’t pay for themselves. And my parents weren’t going to nor did I want them to. I chose to go to an expensive out-of-state university. And fifteen years to the day I graduated? It’s paying dividends.
    Funny thing is, my wife’s got a graduate degree, and I don’t. But she’ll be the first one to tell you that I’m every bit as smart and motivated as she is. I chose to work and help out my parents. There’s no shame in that. And I had women that I was dating or interested in dating that had the frickin’ unmitigaged gall to scoff at that notion. Float. Float on.
    My wife is into Fertile Ground, Erykah Badu, and Jill Scott. I’m into Jay-Z, Keyshia Cole (I love her energy and vibe—I had it rough growing up sometimes, and I “feel” her music), and Joe. I like Cohibas. She likes CAO. I’m a Johnnie Green type of cat. She likes the Black label. She’s an early-riser and coffee drinker. I sleep late and prefer orange juice and oatmeal. We parent our son differently. She’s easy like Sunday morning. I’m spit-and-polish (military brat and a military school survivor.) When we got to the beach, I play golf and she hits the spa with the ladies. (She’s a very good golfer, by the way, but on vacation, she pampers herself. I hit the links.) She wanted a Range Rover, I wanted the Honda Accord. But when I took a job that required we relocate to a cold-weather town? She agreed to allow me to further my career into management “in exchange” for sacrificing her career goals for a time and all it cost me was a Range Rover, a shearling and a Chanel bag. Small price to pay. And believe me, Slim: that lady hung in there with me. And I started out as the “black guy from DC that got a job because his friend hired him” and more than few people threw shade on me and tried to sabotage me and push me to failure.
    One thing I will say about a strong black woman is that she understands the dichotomy of what a black man in corporate America has to face. You can’t be seen as “too angry.” That’s too risky. You can’t be seen as “too soft” or everyone will walk all over you and question your “manhood.” You have to measure every word. No slang allowed. Even if it’s a contraction. It’s a thin line to walk, and there’s a lot of pressure involved. When I’ve had a rough day, I can talk to her about it. When we go to company functions, the other wives or my female co-workers will talk about this or that over drinks, and afterwards, my wife let’s me know “Look out for Suzy in accounting. She’s treacherous” or “Talk to Joanne in HR, she says there’s a gig she can tout you for manager on.” One of the black women I work with took my wife aside, and said, “We thought Phil was married to a white woman, child.” My wife asked, “Why would you think that?” She said, “Because that negro is always happy at work, and so courteous.” LOL. My wife said, “Baby, let me tell you a secret: I got the best of both worlds. White people LOVE my husband in that Wayne Brady sort of way. And that’s how we get paid. But my man knows that he needs to be Wayne Brady at work and John Shaft at home. Because that’s how we roll.”
    Put it this way. I estimate had I been white and had the same HS and collegiate education, resume and start to my career? I would’ve cracked a six-figure salary at least five years before I did. I had to stay in certain jobs a bit longer than my white peers. Even ones with less acumen than I had. I had to take horizontal moves to get away from shitty bosses that would never allow me to be promoted. I had to watch teammates that I had better sales numbers than get promoted while I stayed in the same gig while anyone that managed me got plaudits for having my numbers power their results. I got laid off three times when my wife was pregnant with our son. And here I am. Still doing it. I got fired from a job before that and three years later? The same VP that fired me is friending me on Facebook asking if I can put in a good word for him at MY firm. Ain’t that a bitch? This economy is so tough I got white folks that fired a negro asking for a recommendation.

  39. April wrote:

    I take issue with the notion floating around that interracial dating would somehow be a magic bullet for the 42% (according to one person’s citation) of black women who are not married. From my personal experience, most of the single black women I know, including myself, are quite open to the option. And it’s quite ironic that many of the people uttering this refrain of “If only black women would look beyond black men” also acknowledge the “bitchy”/”Sapphire” stereotype which is still all too prevalent…gee, don’t you think that might throw a wrench in the whole “look outside your race and things will be better” argument? Not to mention there’s that prevalent ideal known as the Eurocentric standard of beauty. I’d also have to agree with Andrea at #15 regarding some of the reasons black women who choose to date only black men might do so–as well as her astute observation that you hardly hear anyone chastising women from any other racial/ethnic group who choose to date within that group.

    As an aside, @Phil Deeze:

    But my man knows that he needs to be Wayne Brady at work and John Shaft at home.

    This quote is priceless!

  40. reality wrote:

    I agree that we need to hear more stories like Phil’s. Obviously he and his wife were at the right place at the right time. However, I think this kind of compatibility – of attraction, desire to be married, openness to all socieconomic statuses, values, and lifestyles – is not that common among singles of any race. I live in DC and have female friends of all races and we all complain about not finding men who want to be in a relationship, much less married. As others have mentioned, there has been an undeniable decline in the U.S. in seeing marriage as significant. And in a career-focused city like DC with so many single people, relationships are even harder. With so many things to do in DC, it’s amazing how popular internet dating sites and matchmaking services are. Why aren’t single, relationship-minded people meeting naturally? But Phil’s story shows that it CAN happen. I’d like to hear more from him about those friends who dragged him out the night he met his wife. Are they the relationship types? I’ve been to Ozio’s with girlfriends and like many other lounges/bars/clubs in DC, the guys are only interested in adding you to their list of women.

  41. Jess wrote:

    I’m going to dig a bit deeper. But I just pulled some census data, involving some 150,000 women.

    The BMG isn’t that big, and I am just doing a one-dimensional comparison here.

    Across age cohorts, the biggest difference is the total number of women who were never married.

    For black women it’s 41.9%, for white women 21.8%, for API its 25% and for Latinas its 29.7% .

    That sounds big but when you look at the ages of the women some interesting patterns show up I only looked at black and white women (I am setting up a table) but so far the biggest differential (the percentage of black women never married subtracted from white women) is women 30-34. It’s -32.9, meaning that fuy half of black women surveyed have never been married by that time, but only 16.6% of white women.

    The smallest differentials are at the ends of the spectrum — it’s only -3.8 at the 70+ range and -2.0 at the 15-19 range. (So much for the myth of an epidemic of teen unwed mothers).

    At 20-24 and 40-49 the gaps are also smaller (-12.6 and -19 respectively).

    I need to spend a little more time with this but the sense I am getting — and I am throwing out a rather poor hypothesis here — is that income has a lot to do with this. Note that the biggest gap is right at the time when you start coming into your own as an earner. Since one reason people put off marriage is income, it would surprise me not at all that back people are waiting a bit longer than they did historically.

    But I need to check this against the income data.

    Anyhow, I hope this helps. I am seeing some interesting patterns with women who were married more than once (and men).

  42. Wendi Muse wrote:

    JESS! thanks for the statistics. i have been running around sick and half dead over here and haven’t gotten around to looking anything up yet, so thanks again!

  43. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Reality,
    I’m not Alan Alda. I’m still “a guy.” I didn’t go to Ozio’s because I wanted to wife someone up. LOL. Let’s call it what it is: you go out when you’re single to meet people. Plain and simple. I’d like to say I had a higher purpose, but I didn’t. Life doesn’t work that way; however, I make friends easily. Now, I don’t end up sleeping with the vast majority of the ladies I’ve met and swapped info with, but I’ve had enough lady friends that would tell me back before I was married that I was “too short, not good-looking enough, need to make more money,” etc.
    Part of the reason is that some guys are serial monogamists and some aren’t. I tended to have one steady girlfriend at a time. The only time I was ever in demand? Was the minute I put a ring on my wife’s finger. Apparently, I’m MUCH more attractive to black women now that I’ve been “domesticated.”
    My wife and I went to a co-worker’s dinner party, and the host’s girlfriend had invited some of her girlfriends to be there. This was less than two months after we’d been married. Everyone knew about it because we’d just gotten back from the honeymoon, so some of the ladies were asking my wife about the details and the wedding, etc. (We did a tax deductible wedding, and it was great, by the way.) I go into the kitchen to make a drink, and one of the hosts’ girlfriends slinks in, gives me the eye and says, straight up, “Me likey you, baby. What’s up? Can we do this?” She was hotter than a wet nose in a pepper patch, too. Ol’ girl tried to corner a brother and hem me up. That stuff happens to Shemar Moore in the movies, but never to a regular Joe like me. Had to walk away on that one with the swiftness. This same gal? I met her before at a dinner party when I was single. I tried to speak to her, make some light convo, too. Asked for her phone number, and she looked me up and down and said, “Ummmmm….no.” Turned on her heel and walked away. I don’t think she remembered me from the first time we met. How crazy is that? The only difference? I was married the second time we met. She could’ve had me from giddy-up, but back when I was single, I was just another guy of the millions that try to hit on her, and I wasn’t in her wheelhouse. Once the demographics shifted a bit, and she lost a little off her fastball as far as age is concerned maybe that evened the playing field.
    That said, most of the girlfriends I’ve ever lost? They ended up dating an older guy. Maybe that’s where we’re out of sync. In college, I couldn’t pick up a college girl to save my life. But now? Who knows?

  44. bdsista wrote:

    Jess, what are the stats for 49-59?

    Phil looove your story!
    How old are you? got friends like you?
    Oh and there are plenty men in DC you just gotta work through them. Dating in DC is like network marketing…. its a numbers game, meet em, screen em and categorize them. But lots of time we don’t want to admit to categories. But that helps you not go crazy or get upset. There are those who are good for one thing with no strings, there are those who are friends who can morph into something serious depending on the tenor of the relationship and how you handle yourself, there are the intense I want to be with you and it fizzles out after a month relationships, the married ones (run!) the separated ones (run faster, but keep the number), the old ones and the young ones and the sprinkling of folks in your age range. I meet guys all the time on planes, at the airport, online and honestly try to give myself the mindset to just enjoy getting to know them and suppress the loneliness-want a lifelong mate urge which makes me give off different pheromones.
    But I want a guy like Phil!! Team Phil!

    Personally, I am trying to be more open to dating white men, but at my age it pushes me out of my comfort zone because I came from an era where white men dated you but didn’t take you home to meet the parents and that actually happened to me twice. One guy said his parents were racist, but his grandmother would like me because I was Baptist, nevertheless, I never met them, ditto for a guy I knew in law school. One guy I worked with in ATL, told me that a rite of passage he was taught was that you were not a man until you could satisfy a black woman. So naturally that made me even more wary. But I see things changing especially in the DC metro area, so if I get asked out, I will say yes.

    You on Racialicious have challenged me to date outside the box, so I will keep you posted.

  45. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @Bdsista,
    My group of friends and I are all pushing 40. All of us are married. Our female friends that we hung with in our halcyon days? They married future captains of industry and scions of wealthy families and all of them are divorced. Every single one. To me, it speaks to choices.
    As far as black women marrying white men? More power to you. If a white guy’s got balls enough to go against convention and step outside the box and date a black woman and wants to marry her? Fine. But I do have an “ick” factor with “you’re not a man until you satisfy a black woman.” That smacks of fetishism and sounds too much like Peter Weller’s character in “Monster’s Ball” but the term he used was “splitting dark wood.” Black woman, if you want your wood to be “split” by a white man because his daddy told him to? You’re on your own on that one.
    A black woman’s sexuality is not a cord of wood to be split. In a physical sense? I guess so. But when a white man says that he’s not a man until he can satisfy a black woman sexually? That’s not a man that values you for anything more than a patch of skin and nerve endings. That’s not a guy that’s going to understand your hair, your body, your mind. A white man that thinks that way? That’s a guy that’s got power issues i.e. he wants to exert power over your body, and I have a hard time thinking that he’d allow you to be a true equal partner in anything other than the bedroom.
    That said, there’s white guys out there I’m sure that have no problem dating and marrying a black woman. Here in the DC area, though? My personal opinion, and my wife agrees with me on this, is that you’d need to go out to Prince George’s County, Maryland, say the Bowie area, to find a white guy like that. In DC? There aren’t salt-of-the-earth/down-to-earth white guys like that. Sure, there are white guys that are yuppies that like Halle Berry or maybe even Gabriel Union, but they aren’t down for dealing with what most black men accept as the norm because, well, a lot of white men in the upper-crusty area of DC proper? They don’t know shit about black women other than what they see in TV, movies and in porn. They might want to bang a black lady or find one attractive. But date one and let white women see him do it? Please. Northern Virginia? Forget about it. Montgomery County, MD? Maybe. I’d rank your chances of finding a white guy that’s suitable and willing to date a black woman that doesn’t look like a supermodel from top to bottom as PG County, Montgomery County, the District, and Northern Virginia coming in dead last.

  46. Jess wrote:

    @bdsista —

    If you are 40-49 and black there are 27.9% of you who were never married at all. For white women it’s 8.0%. The gap narrows a lot for the next 10-year cohort (50-59) — 14.4% for black women as against 5.4% for whites. (The samples for each age are 2,804 and 1,842 black women respectively, and 15,000 and 12,000 white women — so the figures do sort of account for population as well).

    Like I said, (and i am still putting some things together here) for some reason the differential grows in the peak earning years and disappears (almost) for older women.

    That would say to me that a combination of changing roles for women and changing incomes(?) has something to do with this. Note that the gap is almost zero at the very low end of the age range, which might mean that whatever makes younger people get married (or not, as the case may be) doesn’t seem to have any effect that’s all that significant.

    Also, note that anyone 50-59 years old would have been, at a minimum, married in 1970-80 or so. The bigger gaps coincide with the 1980-90 and onward, and as I noted disappearing after that. (And even getting narrower for younger folks). So if anything, BMG seems to be a phenomenon restricted to a certain age group.

  47. Jess wrote:

    I also havent yet checked against life expectancy. At the upper end of the age range it might skew things a bit — couples tend to live longer and die within a couple of years of each other (no, really!) so at the high end only the married people are left — the singles all died out.

    (So get yourself married and live longer! :-) )

  48. eh wrote:

    Phil,

    No disrespect, but I think you are dealing out stereotypes. Men are men, no matter what “race”. There are black men that have a fetish light skin, or at least having long hair (no matter what the cost). I think a lot of black women don’t date people of other races because of fear, because of the things people like you constantly tell us. I’m not saying just date anyone, I’m just saying not to live in fear, not to stereotype people. By all means find someone who is respectful and excepts you for you, that man could be Asian, white, Latino, black, or heck even a woman.

    You are basically saying that for black women to be valued/loved by any other race they have to be extra beautiful or fit into some 20th century European ideal of beauty.

  49. Golden Silence wrote:

    There are black men that have a fetish light skin…

    They’re the worst. I’ve been called the worst things by those types because of my light skin. “Redbone,” “Snowflake” and “Light-Skinded” [sic] are not flattering comments about me.

    No disrespect, but I think you are dealing out stereotypes. Men are men, no matter what “race”.

    I agree. Comments like those are what condition Black women to stay within their race when it comes to dating. Generalizing the White guys of the DC area is no better than us Black women being generalized by people. Everyone’s unique.

    I take issue with the notion floating around that interracial dating would somehow be a magic bullet for the 42% (according to one person’s citation) of black women who are not married.

    It’s not a panacea, but it could help with changing the results. If some women continue to look for love in the same places, they’re going to get the same results. Dating outside the box will open options.

  50. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Eh,
    Sorry, but we’re talking about ONE situation where a white guy said that he wouldn’t be a man if he hadn’t satisfied a black woman. Like a black woman’s some sort of sexual Rubik’s cube.
    Black men fetishize, sure. I didn’t say they don’t do that. I didn’t cast any “fear” around. I stated facts: if we’re talking to black women that are interested in dating a white man? The guy that says he wants to satisfy you sexually and likens it to a conquest and says it to your face? You’re on your own. Sorry. That’s not me casting a stereotype on anyone. And, all due respect, how DARE you throw that back in my face? Considering I’m not the one that said satisfying a black woman is a de facto rite of passage for white manhood. Speak to the white guy that said that mess and expected it to work and get a black woman between his sheets.
    And I never said that for black women to be loved by another race that they have to be extra beautiful. I did basically say that if you’ve got a white guy talking in fetishes, sexual fantasies and such? It’s a guy not dealing in reality. If you’re a black lady that wants to date white men? I even gave directions to where to find them. I have no problem with it. Just go into it with your eyes open. If you’re going to date men of other races, black ladies, and you’re “wary” of black men? Fine. Be wary of ALL men, then. White men aren’t a silver bullet.
    In fact, try this: ask a white man interested in you (a black woman) what, if any black women, he finds attractive. And listen to the answer. If it’s pretty much the same women you find in Maxim, FHM, etc.? It’s a slight indicator that someone might have pin-up fantasies and is looking to recreate some of them. If that’s what you want? Fine with me. If you want to date a white guy, deal with one that is strongly grounded in reality. If you have to live up to an impossible beauty or size standard? No one can take advantage of you without your permission.

  51. mieko wrote:

    Wow, Jess. I am impressed. I take my hat off to your superior number-crunching skills *removes hat.*

  52. Jess wrote:

    All credit to the census bureau. You can download the data as an excel sheet, and I am playing with it now. And I am only applying simple, one-dimensional analyses. A stat hound could do loads better. Tomorrow I should have more stuff.

  53. Lady Gag wrote:

    Coming a little late to the post…
    @andrea: I get you on the first point. I can understand why people would take the easy road and marry someone that is within the race. Otherwise you get a lot of crap from all sides and only a strong person could handle it. As a WOC in a relationship with a white dude I am always on the look out for positive portrayals of IR families of any kind. Based on that, I can’t share your view that the MSM shows that white women who marry black men are progressive and brave. They are usually portrayed pretty negatively. Either like the white trash lady in My Name Is Earl or the fool white lady in Obsessed. There are fairly few solid, healthy IR relationships on TV featuring black and white couples. I wish I saw more. An overt positive encouragement in the media just isn’t there. I wish it was b/c I hate to see people feeling like they are betraying themselves and their communities by venturing outside the lines of race. You need to look for the PERSON. I mean, assuming that a person needs to be white, or latin@ or black to relate to you, or to have the same values, or to remind you of your Daddy…that’s very limiting and also, in my opinion, a little…racist. By that I mean, you are stereotyping people. By all means, if you only feel comfortable with your own race, marry within the race. But, ladies, let me tell you that there is something to be said for looking on the inside.

  54. Kaonashi wrote:

    I actually genuinely believe that we may not be having this conversation if black women kept all of their options open.

    A fucking man!

    I stated facts: if we’re talking to black women that are interested in dating a white man? The guy that says he wants to satisfy you sexually and likens it to a conquest and says it to your face? You’re on your own. Sorry.

    I agree. The good news is that the fetishists of all stripes that want to date you just because you’re Black/have features they consider “desirable” generally out themselves VERY early on, allowing you to cross them off the “suitable” list and go about your business.

  55. April wrote:

    @Golden Silence:

    It’s not a panacea, but it could help with changing the results. If some women continue to look for love in the same places, they’re going to get the same results. Dating outside the box will open options.

    And what evidence do you have that most women aren’t doing this already, besides what the media claims (given this post is about debunking one commonly held perception of black women) and someone’s anecdote about what black women supposedly think?

  56. reality wrote:

    Phil said:
    My personal opinion, and my wife agrees with me on this, is that you’d need to go out to Prince George’s County, Maryland, say the Bowie area, to find a white guy like that. In DC? There aren’t salt-of-the-earth/down-to-earth white guys like that. Sure, there are white guys that are yuppies that like Halle Berry or maybe even Gabriel Union, but they aren’t down for dealing with what most black men accept as the norm because, well, a lot of white men in the upper-crusty area of DC proper? They don’t know shit about black women other than what they see in TV, movies and in porn. They might want to bang a black lady or find one attractive. But date one and let white women see him do it? Please. Northern Virginia? Forget about it. Montgomery County, MD? Maybe. I’d rank your chances of finding a white guy that’s suitable and willing to date a black woman that doesn’t look like a supermodel from top to bottom as PG County, Montgomery County, the District, and Northern Virginia coming in dead last.
    _________________________

    Ok, I have to agree with some of the commenters who think Phil was being somewhat stereotypical. I think we’ve all heard these kinds of statements from the black community with regard to white men dating black women. And then to add in geography is interesting. I’ve lived in various cities and states and haven’t found a difference in the numbers of white men I attract, nor what they find attractive about me. I’ve dated several white men in DC and they have no problem taking me out in public (lol), having me meet their friends, etc. and no, I do not look like Gabrielle Union. The guys I’ve dated have lived in either DC or NOVA. I’ve never even met a white guy who lives in PG county. And I actually find their physical appearance standards to be less obvious and certainly less specific than those of black men. I find black men in the DC area to be rather focused on things like hair, complexion, and body shape. The white men I’ve dated have never stated a preference for the way I wear my hair but black men have. I’m not saying that there are no cultural issues to deal with when dating a white man, but physical appearance has not been one of them in my experience.

  57. eh wrote:

    Phil,

    I’m married (5 years) to a white guy. I wouldn’t date anyone who read Maxim or any of those other magazines. Those men are easily influenced by the media, and they need a woman to validate there self worth. One hundred years ago large women (like Ms. Russel) were all the rage, in white culture. My deal w/people is my hair, I found someone who wasn’t always harping on me to straighten my hair. In conclusion all women (who want to date women) should be wary of D-bags who have ridiculous standards and fetishes for certain things. The end!

  58. eh wrote:

    I mean all women who want to date men. blah.

  59. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Reality and Golden Silence,
    Quite frankly, we’re ALL talking in generalizations here. I’d go into my reasoning behind why I think a white guy from out here is more likely to be interested in dating a black woman, and I’m happy to share it with you. I’ve got facts to back it up as well.
    I simply responded to another poster who brought up that she met a white guy that told her that he was told that he wasn’t a man until he satisfied a black woman. The discussion topic IS black women and dating woes, is it not? And not one of you was bothered by that statement the white guy made, but you decided to jump on me for pointing out some alternative places to possibly meet suitable white guys? I think you might need to stop reading out of context or wanting to pounce on someone for sport. One of you says you’ve never met a white guy from Prince George’s County, right? So how in the heck would you know what they’re like. (Some of them hang out in Washington, DC. It’s a short trip up Route 50). I live in PG. I’ve met a bunch of white guys out here that are born and raised here. If you don’t believe what I’m saying, that’s fine. But I’m not making generalizations or stereotyping.
    Second, if you know anything about Washington, DC, you’ll know that its pretty tough statistically to meet a white guy with the following demographics: born in DC, raised in DC, a product of a DC school (public or private.) The white guy that you’re dating in DC? It’s a statistical fact that he probably wasn’t born in DC, has never lived in DC or went to HS or college in the city. There could be a familiarity gap. In Prince Georges? Those metrics all flip-flop. The schools are more diverse and have more white folks in them. More chances for interaction in the neighborhoods, particularly outside the Beltway in….a place like Bowie or Ft. Washington, for example. The more familiar a population is with another population, the more chances to interact, the more chances for unions to be built, societal and marital. On the flip-side of this, at college, I met a lot of black guys that were from the South that had never dated a black girl in HS. They actually asked me what it was like, and my jaw dropped. Could not believe it.
    Third, I’m fine with black women broadening their horizons and dating white men or men of other races. If I had a problem with white men, I certainly wouldn’t tell a black lady where she might be able to find a pool of white guys that might be more likely to be interested in her.
    Fourth, the poster named “Eh” misread what I wrote and said that I claimed that black women need to be prettier than most to be suitable to date, and “Eh” was flat-out wrong. I think there are some white guys that expect a black woman to look like what he sees in various media. I will agree that some black men have a fetish on skin-tone, but I notice that you don’t want to flip the script and place that high-powered introspection on the ladies that expect a black guy to wear Italian suits, drive a BMW and not force you to “settle.”
    And “reality,” if you honestly believe that white men aren’t worried about appearance and black men are? Sorry if I offended you.

  60. Phil Deeze wrote:

    @ Eh,
    The one thing I never comment on with regards to my wife is her hair and her weight. It’s not that it’s “none of my business,” but she pays attention to her physical appearance without me prompting her. Now, she can ask ME to lose the chubby-hubby look, but I can’t say that to her. ;-) We all know how that one works. (And it’s OK. I know I’ve been too fond of filet mignon lately. I’ll try to lose the extra poundage.)
    When we were dating, she swore she was too big for designer jeans. She was only a size 8. A few clicks on eLuxury and I got her the first pair of designer jeans she’d ever owned.
    As for her hair? She’s had every style imaginable since we’ve been together. Bantu knots. Permed. Braids. Short. Long. Weave. I come home from business trips and she’s got a different look going on. She looks good in everything, so no discomfort for me. As long as she’s happy with it, I’m as sound as the proverbial pound.

  61. lula wrote:

    @Phil Deeze

    Thanks for your story!!

    It’s really so good to hear. These days I just feel like the sky is raining good Black men. Yes I said Black men. I know who I am, what I want and where I fit in this world, and for me that means a Black man.

    I dated a lot interracially when I was in high school and somewhat in college and it just really taught me a lot about myself and where I fit. I really think it’s erroneous to assume that it’s so easy to fit into someone else’s culture, it’s not and more power to those who are making it work, I just don’t want to be one of them. Also, I live in a city full of Black people! How counterproductive it is for me to try and date interracially in a city whose population is majority Black.

    There’s hope out there ladies, we just have to start playing the game the way Phil Deeze’s wife did. She went put herself smack dab in the middle of opportunity. I think for Black women we just believe there is no chance so we don’t go and seek our fortune, plus the fact we are told not to. How many times have we been told “don’t try and find him, let him find you”. I’m not saying be all overly aggressive, but women have to put effort in the game too, otherwise you end up alone and praying for a man.

    Another thing, it sounds to me like your wife was really open to opportunity as well. I think it’s really played out these days to place all a man’s value on his net worth. Whatever happened to wanting to work and build a life together. Why must I only be with a ‘ready-made man’.

    As Black women I think we believe we are getting the short end of the stick in the love department because we think not only are our options limited but the options we have aren’t good enough for us, which is such a load of baloney. Tons of women from other races date men who are not “up to par”, meaning they don’t make enough money or have less than desirable backgrounds. Just to give you an idea, I have an Asian friend who’s husband is an ex-con (he’s Asian too by the way), they have two daughters and she’s the bread winner. I have a Hispanic friend who is the bread winner in her family, her husband (White) works at the grocery story making around $30k a year. My former boss, who’s an Indian male, his wife bought the business they own and never hesitated to remind him that the store was her’s because SHE paid for it.

    I think for Black women we believe our counterparts just get more than we do so we are hesitant to chose what we feel is less. As well, we are at times living our mother’s narrative, meaning the women in our lives maybe had failed relationships that we’ve come to believe failed due to Black men not being good enough. I just don’t believe that’s true anymore and I really feel confident about all the prospects out there for me.

  62. GeeLennox wrote:

    Are Black women the only group chastised for wanting to marry within their race?

    I see absolutely nothing wrong with Black women only interested in building relationships/families with Black men.
    Some people just don’t desire to build interacial unions/families. Sounds bad but I don’t underdstand why people are dancing around that fact especially on a site like this.

  63. pololly wrote:

    Phil

    You seem to be missing the point of eh and golden silence’s posts. You were talking about interracial dating in general and then ‘warned’ about a particular phenomenon. I think it is reasonable to assume that this phenomenon would be likely in some way. It’s like when your mom used to say ‘get up! don’t be late for school’, she wouldn’t say ‘don’t be vaporised in a nuclear atack on your way down the stairs’ because it wouldn’t be a likely phenomenon. You warned with stereotypes about white men’s intentions when they date black women. I’m not necessarily disagreeing that these apply to at least some IR dating but I think you should at least own the implication of your comments and their placement in your post.

    Also,

    Does anyone else think that the fawning praise that meets any black man who decides to date black women to be a bit sickening?

    Anyway from an amazing post, this thread has just turned into more of the same; bm praising bw in a patriarchical, mysogynistic ‘give me a cookie way’, bw falling for this shit and fawning all over it, people in IR calling other people racist, people not in IR questioning the basis for those relationships, lots of people telling spouting smug faux profoundity about materialism – honestly I’m not sure based on this why anyone wants to date anyone.

    Too depressed by the comments on this thread to even engage further.

  64. Phil Deeze wrote:

    Pololly,
    Someone else was talking about considering interracial dating, and I commented on what she said. I didn’t bring it up. I have no problem with black women dating white men. This is a discussion about a Washington Post article about a black lady who some think might be a bit off-base, and we’re trying to discuss it. If you don’t want me to comment on what someone else said, I can understand that, but here you are acting shitty about it.
    I didn’t say or imply to any black lady on here that she should date/marry a black guy, did I? What is your problem, then?
    What’s depressing is that someone puts an opinion on here and gets attacked by people like you. I haven’t missed the point of Eh or Golden Silence’s responses to what I posted. I put facts into what I posted, and you haven’t refuted a single point that I made. There have been stats on here about how the numbers aren’t in black women’s favor. I’ve put info in my posts about some white guys I know in the DC Metro area that might be appealing to some. If these guys aren’t your cup of tea, don’t attack me for bringing them up. After all, this IS a discussion about dating options, and I’ve given some info about some of the ones put out there. I certainly haven’t advertised on the type of black guy that black ladies should look into or deign to come down of your high horse (just yours because you’re WAAAAAY over the rainbow) to speak to one.
    And for you to say that I’m misogynistic? You’ve got a real problem. “Fawning praise?” You’ve got issues, lady. Why so unhappy?

  65. Yetunde wrote:

    I’m a sophomore in college and day after day my friends and I bemoan the fact that black males make up only about 2% of the student body (compared to black females 6%). I suppose I could try and meet men of other races, but my observations of white and Asian males in the South has shown me that they probably wouldn’t be too interested in dark skinned, nappy headed me.

    So I guess as a Nigerian American female atheist, my chances of getting married are pretty low. I have no problem being single, but I would really like to be single by choice and not because I have no dating options :/

  66. pololly wrote:

    Phil

    *sigh*

    I haven’t got issues. I didn’t ‘attack’ you – I pointed out that the placement of your comment may be lending it greater credence than even you have intended.

    However, I do think that your posts, and the responses to them are very telling.

  67. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Closing Comments. It’s a shame how these posts always spiral downward the same way. – LDP