How Do We Solve a Problem Like South Philadelphia High?

by Latoya Peterson

When you see a headline like “30 Asian Students Attacked,” one would think there would be massive rage.  An outcry about violence in schools.  A discussion of why our kids aren’t safe.  But in the wake of the attacks and continuing coverage by outlets like the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Asian-American blogosphere, the silence surrounding this issue confirms exactly who is considered media worthy in our society and who is not.  The kids being attacked at South Philly High School are part of our community – but where is the concern?  Where is the outcry from mainstream media? Where is the national conversation on…well, I’d take anything at this point.  Race, violence in schools, unsympathetic administrators, class, inter-community tensions, the right to an education in a safe environment – there are thousands of issues to be explored here, and we haven’t heard a peep from most mainstream media outlets.

I’ve been following the news with quite a bit of interest.  This kind of violence doesn’t pop up out of no where - it has to be nurtured.

Chaofei Zheng hiked up his shirt to reveal an angry bruise about four inches long on his right side. He pointed to a matching yellow and purple mark above his left eyebrow.

“I’m scared to go to school,” Zheng, 19, a freshman at South Philadelphia High, said through a translator today.

Zheng is one of several – community organizers say 30 or more – students who were attacked at the school on Thursday, targeted, they say, because they’re Asian.

Racial violence at the school is not new, but students and activists say this week’s attacks are emblematic of a problem that’s not going away.

“There’s a corrosive culture that’s hurting all the kids at the school,” said Helen Gym, a board member of Asian Americans United, who said the district must apologize and “admit that there’s a serious problem at South Philly High School.”

District officials acknowledge the school has problems and racial tensions but say that before the incident, violence was down by 55 percent this school year. Inroads have been made, they say.

Looking at some of the source articles, a clear narrative starts to emerge.  And while it is difficult to opine on a situation that is still unfolding, there are some dominant ideas emerging that need to be scrutinized before any progress can occur.

Racial Tensions Between Groups As Expressions of Power

According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the racial make up of the school is composed primarily of black students – 70% of the population is identified as black.  A significant minority group is Asian, 18% of the student population, many of whom are recent immigrants or the children of recent immigrants.  The remaining students at the school are white and Latino (with 6% and 5% of the population respectively.)  No white or Latino students appear to have been interviewed.  Student testimony reveals how racial retaliation begins – a slight on one member of a group damns the whole.  So in this case, the students explain:

Wei Chen, who formed the South Philadelphia Chinese-American Student Association last year after a spate of attacks, saw the violence erupt on Thursday, but was not injured. Chen, 18, a senior, said the attackers had no specific problem with their victims.

“They didn’t know each other,” said Chen. “They just see the Asian face, and they punch it.”

Kelly Muth, a Cambodian student, said she witnessed one of the Thursday attacks. And she thinks she knows what triggered the violence.

“Last week, a group of Vietnamese students jumped a black guy, so they came back for revenge,” Muth said. “But they targeted anybody, anybody Asian.”

Other articles point to a more familiar dynamic – a native-born group exploiting a more vulnerable immigrant group:

Chen said there’s been some progress at the school this year – more community meetings, weekly sessions with administrators where students point out possible problems. Classes for those students learning English used to be on a separate floor, the immigrants kept away from the native English speakers, Chen said.

But new principal LaGreta Brown ended that practice, he said. Brown was not available for comment.

Other articles about community meetings added that additional, outside tensions between the black community and the Asian community in South Philadelphia could also be exacerbating the issues at school.  Minority groups can certainly hold prejudice and bias toward one another, and engage in racist actions they have learned are acceptable.  However, more may be at play here – the school’s demographic information shows a school that was much more racially balanced eight years ago, one that is plagued with withdrawals, and one that leaves the most vulnerable kids – the ones who do not have parents who can afford to send them to a better school, or who are too intimidated to navigate a bureaucracy – to fend for themselves.

The Role of Class

I looked up the website for the school, to try to find more information on the backgrounds of the students.  The school website has not updated student data since 2006; yet it confirmed a hunch I had:

The percentage of students from low-income families in 2005 – 2006 is operationally defined as the percentage of students elligible for free or reduced lunch in the Federal School Lunch Program.

Students from Low-Income Families (%): 71.8%          Citywide: 72.8%

Class is playing as large a role as race in why this story is under reported. I am relying a bit on personal experience here, but low income students, of any race, are less likely to garner as much sympathy as their wealthier counterparts. When violence erupts in schools in areas that are in areas plagued by violence, it’s reported as if it was just another day.  That’s why situations like Columbine rock headlines – the ten year anniversary of the tragic public school shooting recently passed and the news paused to remember.  Columbine was a tragedy – but one that resonated because it impacted the “safe,” predominantly white community and shattered the sense of peace.  Those of us who grew up in other types neighborhoods know that there is no peace to be had – the violence we witnessed didn’t come all at once, but consistently ebbs and flows.  And there is no outcry.  It is considered normal for poorer students and minority students to put up with some level of violence while pursuing an education. It’s just the way it is.  And the rest of the world is not moved by our plight.

I was very lucky.  None of the schools I attended, in various areas, had metal detectors or serious problems with violence.  (Or, if they had, those problems were mostly resolved by the time I enrolled.)  But my friends and family who lived in different areas were not so lucky.  And when violence happened, at their schools, when there’s a drive by near their school building or when kids are being shot in class, it wasn’t considered unusual.  The only outrage came from the community, while most people checked out the article in the Metro section, shook their heads, and turned the page.

How Administrators Perpetuate Climates of Racism and Violence in Schools

When the first response out of a principal’s mouth after a horrific attack is about violence actually dropping this year, there may be some problems with grasping the reality of the situation between the walls of the school. And when you have to revise that initial statement, we really have to wonder how engaged the administration is in ending the violence:

Officials said last night that they erred last week in saying violence was down at the school. A district spokesman said that through the end of November, assaults were up by 32 percent, to 37 this year, and overall violence was up by 5 percent, with 43 total attacks this year.

Attacks on Asian students were down by 38 percent – there were five this year through the end of November, and eight last year, September through November. These numbers don’t include last week’s violence.

30 kids don’t catch beat downs at school without the school environment signaling in some way that this is acceptable behavior. And sure enough, the signs were there:

Ellen Somekawa, executive director of Asian Americans United, said the attacks against Asian students were disturbing, but more so was the district’s reaction, which she characterized as slow and defensive. Almost a week later, some students involved have still not been interviewed, Somekawa said. [...]

Somekawa described students at the school being mocked by staff: ” ‘Where are you from? Hey, Chinese. Yo, Dragon Ball. Are you Bruce Lee? Speak English,’ ” quoting what students had told her.

Troung, the South Philadelphia student, recited a litany of problems with school staff. She singled out the security officers, who she claimed forced Asian students to follow them into a lunchroom where they were attacked and who directed the frightened students to leave school after they were beaten.

Yan Zheng, another student, said that when students were fighting in the lunch room last Thursday, “the lunch lady did not do anything to stop them, and went around cheering happily. . . . The staff shouldn’t just stand there and watch and say, ‘Stopping fights is not my job.’ ”

Duong Thang Ly said the school’s security officers “are the big problem,” saying they looked the other way when a group of African American students interrupted a lunch line and heckled a group of Asian students. They ignored groups of students as they roamed during class time, Ly said.

Many of the solutions proposed showed an astounding lack of ideas on how to solve this problem:

The Philadelphia School District has been criticized for its response, which some have characterized as slow and defensive, but officials on Friday announced a host of fixes – more police officers, more cameras, diversity training, a federal program to deal with racial tensions, an outside diversity committee, and an in-school think tank.

If the kids don’t trust the security officers now, what makes school officials think that adding more will help, especially when they have already discussed how students are reluctant to name people for fear of retribution?  How do cameras help anything but prosecution?  Carmen often explains why diversity training doesn’t work – it often is focused on protecting a company or organization by teaching people how to hide their racism, not by forcing people to challenge their own racist beliefs.  Worse still are the multicultural celebrations, that think by highlighting a groups achievements or individual culture, they can somehow stop racist attacks.  But neither of those methods work because they do not examine the root issues.  Outside committees can provide perspective, but often fail because they are too far from the community to really understand the issue, and often lack the authority to implement their recommendations, and in-school think tanks are often rife with the politics that plague the school.

Meanwhile, kids are still being targeted.

How Framing Influences Perception

Here’s an interesting thing I’ve noticed.  The kids being interviewed seem to express the same ideas over and over – while this is being promoted as a race war, the reality is a lot more complicated.

Wei Chen, a student activist who formed a Chinese-American student group after attacks that happened last year said:

Chen, 18, who stayed home from school today, stressed that it’s a small number of students making things unsafe for everyone. “I have many African American friends; they teach me to say hello,” he said, displaying an elaborate series of hand clasps and slaps, street language that makes him cool. “Every group has good students and bad students.”

And while details about the attacks still seem a bit hazy, it may be that some Asian students participated in the attacks (emphasis mine):

The meeting was a dramatic crescendo in a situation that began Dec. 2, school officials said, when a disabled African American student was beaten up by two Asian students outside school.

The next day, large groups of African American and Asian students attacked at least 30 Asian students, seven of whom required treatment at a hospital. Some of the attackers went from room to room, looking for students to target. District officials said the Thursday attacks were retaliatory, but Helen Gym, a board member of Asian American United, challenged that.

“By linking the two incidents, which involved two absolutely different sets of youth, the district seems to imply that there’s an undercurrent of justification for what happened on Thursday,” Gym said.

Officials announced last night that an outside investigator would probe what happened, beginning next week.

Six African American students and four Asian students have been suspended, and police and School District investigations are ongoing.

What the hell is that about?  It appears this story is further complicated by an insider/outsider dynamic which can be traced along racial lines, but isn’t solely the cause.

Meanwhile, other students take pains to point out that while the racial dynamics make the analysis swing in an obvious direction, the problem runs deeper than that:

It’s not just Asian students who are suffering, Truong said.

“Most of the students at South Philadelphia High School – Asian, African American, Latino and white – are just like us. They are trying to get an education in a school where they do not feel safe or respected,” said Truong.

However, it is heartening to see that despite the lackluster efforts by adults to solve the problem, the students at South Philly High School want to step up where the administation has failed:

At one point, a multiracial contingent of South Philadelphia High students asked the Asian students to come back to school.

Senior student Duong-Thang Ly thanked the students, then added: “We hope to return to school soon, but we want to the school to be safe for all of us.”

So what can be done at South Philadelphia High School?

There are no easy answers to these types of problems, particularly ones that have been going on as long as this one appears to be.  Violence will not be solved overnight. And, while we talk about issues of race and culture often here, anything I say from this point on is armchair quarterbacking – the majority of us aren’t in Philadelphia, South Philadelphia High is not our community school, and ultimately, we can’t know how the situation is actually playing out based on a handful of news articles.  But in the off chance some one is reading who can affect change at the school, I don’t want to leave them hanging.  So here’s my very general ideas for how to help stop the violence and soothe some of the inter-group issues.  Remember, this is generic advice – it will need to be adapted to the individual needs of the school before it is put in play.

Short Term Solutions – Stop Immediate Violence, Allow Kids to Attend School Safely

1.  Extensively poll the students, in confidence.  You want to make an outside task force? Set them on this task – interview every student at South Philly High School (including those who are being suspended for violent acts) about the over all school environment, race, violence, who they trust, and why.  There are 1200 or so students – go class by class, pulling every kid out one by one.  That way, no one is singled out as being the person who said anything – everyone is participating.  If you can’t do in-person discussions (which, considering the crisis level at the school, shouldn’t be too much to ask) then do written surveys in multiple languages, and have people on staff who can read and translate without sending them off anywhere else.  You want to talk about a month to cull the data, and a month to analyze it.  These kids don’t have a year or two years to waste while people are writing reports – they need relief now.

2. One of the key narratives is that immigrant students are being attacked.  These are the kids who are the most vulnerable, yet they have revealed school officials cannot be trusted with listening to their concerns.  While all this is being resolved, reinstate the policy that Chen referred to of pulling the students out of regular rotation with the rest of the student body.  ESL students do learn better if they are exposed to people who speak English as a first language, but these effects are negligible if the students are too fearful to interact.  This should be done immediately, while the data is being gathered.  Pull the kids to their own floor again, provide them with a separate lunch period or allow them to take lunch in the classrooms where they are most comfortable.  Reroute the most sympathetic security officers to provide back up in the ESL wing/floor and to work with the ESL teachers to identify students who are prone to being bullied.  Do not bring police into a school environment.  That is generally a toxic influence, especially when so many youth of color have learned (through words or actions) not to trust the police.  If you want to post a patrol outside of the building, fine.  But many on the police force are not trained to deal with adolescents, outside of programs like D.A.R.E. or other outreach initiatives.  Officers are there to provide policing and force, and that is not an element you want to introduce to the school.  Kids don’t learn on lockdown.  Get more security officers, particularly ones who worked with schools or with rehabilitative juvenile justice programs.

3. I’ll bet a major problem in this school revolves around staff, be it staff turnover or staff shortages.  One teacher explains she left because of all the attacks on foreign-born students she felt helpless to stop.  Get more staff in there, both teachers, teaching assistants, or security.  More sets of (engaged) eyes will help to stem the flow of violence.   If this is not feasible or too expensive, ask organizations like Teach for America or community organizations and leaders to lend some volunteers to the school to be witnesses.  You do not want people to engage with violent students (that what security is for) but you do want to make it so that there are enough adults around so that kids think twice about attacking people.

4.  Pinpoint violent offenders and remove them from the flow of students. According to the school’s own data, in 2005 some 150 students were suspended more than three times over the course of the school year. What are these kids doing to get suspended so often? Are they being violent toward other students? If so, remove them from general matriculation and put them in an In School Suspension program.  Don’t just send them home – give them their work and sequester them somewhere else, so that other students can learn in peace.  Also, have teachers keep an eye out for violent bullies, and recommend those kids spend a day or two in ISS.  I stress this is a temporary solution – most of the kids you meet in ISS will need more help than a school system can give, and may need counseling, removal from abusive home environments, special needs classes for undiagnosed learning issues – it could be any cause. However, the short term goal is getting kids back into school and feeling safe, and a part of that will be removing the admittedly small number of students who are masterminding the problems.

Long Term Solutions – Promote a Safe and Harmonious School Environment for All Students

1. There can be no racial harmony without trust.  However, many of these kids don’t trust each other, or the outside school environment.  This type of reform takes years, but I would suggest starting with each incoming class of freshman and finding time in home room or something equivalent to talk and journal about issues that are impacting them. They need to know that school is a space for them to reflect and that school officials will have their best interests at heart.  Part of this is by establishing connections with more of the students.

2. We want to encourage cross-cultural friendships. A lot of the kids that spoke out were not the ones being abused.  And many of the student leaders referenced having friends of different groups.  This should be encouraged.  Tap the more outgoing kids to become student leaders, and allow them to lead discussion groups and influence the administration on how best to promote kindness and understanding. Friendship is more powerful than rhetoric.

3.  Much of these tensions probably result from community issues spilling into the space of the school.  So a lot of community healing may be in order.  Again, not being based in Philly, I’m not sure how things have changed or what is causing the outrage and lack of empathy, but looking at some of those issues may help kids to engage with school a bit better.

4. Advocate for more resources at the school.  Teachers can only do so much.  Guidance counselors can only do so much.  To succeed and flourish, a school must be able to meet the needs of most students at the school. Outside of safety, what else is happening? Are the students disengaging with the curriculum? Is there a clear path to college, or a trade, or does an adult life feel unattainable for most students? Use the data gathered by the task force to figure out what your students need, and find a way to provide it.

Source Articles:

Allegations of racial tensions at South Philadelphia High
Asian students vow to continue school boycott
Asian students describe violence at South Philadelphia High
100 rally to support S. Phila. High’s Asian students
Principal had a rocky end at old job
Asians say officials, not kids, are the problem at South Philly high

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Trackbacks & Pings

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Comments

  1. atlasien wrote:

    Good suggestions.

    I’d like to partially reverse your number 3) though. I think a lot of the community tensions may actually relate right back to the school. If you’re an immigrant family and your children are getting beaten up every day in school, that’s going to cause tension. I think it’s really more like feedback loop than a flow from community -> school.

    I’ll repost part of the last comment I made on this on the earlier link thread, I don’t mean to be repetitive but I wanted to make sure this got out there:

    There are three target groups that have to be reached to stop the abuse. The first are the abuse leaders and instigators. They constantly seek to work out aggression on anyone weaker. If there weren’t any Asian kids at the school they’d just be attacking anyone who looked weak and alone. They will always attack, attack attack unless they are restrained by the school environment.

    The second, largest group are the kids who will just go along with the flow. They will join in with the abusers not because they like the abuse, but because it’s become a social ritual. If they don’t join in the abuse, they’ll stand out, and they don’t want to do that.

    The third group are potential allies. They don’t like the abuse and want to stop it, but they don’t know how, and they’re also afraid of the abusers.

    A healthier school environment will discourage the first group with strong boundaries, enable the third group by promising them protection, and then the second group will mostly fall in line with the third group.

    Notice I didn’t say anything about the group being abused. That’s because it is TOTALLY POINTLESS to try to reach this group with messages while they’re being abused! They just want one thing. For the abuse to stop. They shouldn’t be asked to “come together”. They shouldn’t be asked to “forgive”. Just protect them from getting their asses kicked and don’t give them any extra responsibility until they’re safe.

    By allowing an “open season on Asians” environment — in which the school staff made it explicitly clear that Asians would not be protected in any way, and if an Asian fought back, the Asian would be blamed — the first group is empowered, the third group is made powerless and the second falls in line with the first.

    Yes, this is all spurred by racism but it can’t be solved just by telling KIDS not to be racist. The administration has to stop being racist!!! That’s what is causing the situation. Once they do that, they can move on to the effective measures, which are very simple, and work for all kinds of abuse, and not just race-related abuse: restrict abusers, enable allies, protect victims.

    And finally, I think this dynamic holds true pretty much anywhere. Physical violence is more acceptable in schools with lower income levels. I think this is because upper-class students are given stronger and more consistent messages that physical violence is less acceptable because it will hinder their future careers. Whereas administrators have lower expectations of lower-income students. But the same dynamic of abuse holds true in upper-class schools, it’s just conducted less on the physical level and more on the verbal and emotional level.

  2. Luis wrote:

    Here’s on question I’ve had about this situation. In the original reports of an attack, a group composed of Black and Asian students attacked Asian students. I haven’t heard anything about this since, but I want someone to go back and explain this.

    I can only suspect that this started as an attack on foreign-born, ESL students, in which US-born Asian-American students took part. This wouldn’t surprise me, the divides between US-born and foreign-born Latinos has erupted into violence in schools and outside schools (review the Patchogue, NY murder). Often the US-born kids take up the anti-immigrant stances and slogans of their White and Black peers.

    This doesn’t change the issue at all, but it adds a nuance that I think needs to be understood. The US-born Asian kids could have been the link between their Black friends and the foreign-born Asian students, as has sometimes been a successful strategy in majority Black/Latino schools. Successful in at least minimizing physical violence.

  3. Evan wrote:

    My question is why is this happening in Philadelphia? I am sure that many recent Asian immigrants have their kids enrolled in public schools of other major US cities such as NYC, Chicago, LA etc. What is the school administration doing wrong in Philadelphia? What are the other major US urban school districts doing right? I am not reading about groups of Asian kids getting beat up in other cities.

    Maybe this is an issue of race and class conflict germane to Philly. The source of the violence comes from the community itself. Do African-Americans experience prejudice from Asians/Asian-Americans in Philadelphia’s shops and streets? If black adults claim racial abuse from Asians, it is natural that their children pick up on this feeling of hurt and anger.

    When packs of black kids beat up Asian immigrants on a consistent basis, is this considered bullying? Or is there something deeper here? Bullies are violent and they enjoy humiliating their victims. But these repeated violent acts go well beyond bullying. A bully would throw a couple of punches, call him “China..Ching..Chong” and laugh about it as he walks away. That’s how a bully behaves. First, comes the violent act and then the humiliation.

    No…this is RAGE. There is intense hatred behind these beatings. The fact you have groups of aggressors searching class rooms in South Philly High for Asian kids or they are willing to wait HOURS at the Broad Street corner for a chance to beat down Asian kids tells me that this is RAGE.

    Christ, I think immigrant parents should pack up their bags and move to the suburbs outside of Philadelphia. Sure, the Chinese and Vietnamese kids will face racism and taunts from the suburban white kids, but at least they won’t get daily beat downs.

    If teachers are bailing out of the dysfunctional Philadelphia School District, so should the parents of the kids who encounter violent assaults. Or try to enroll the kids in a private, religious school. Urban public schools have mine fields of social problems. If immigrants are looking for an avenue to the “American Dream”, you ain’t gonna find it in public schools where you have high numbers of low-income students.

    Mod Note –

    Evan, you are making huge jumps in logic.

    1. There is no word on race relations in Philly outside of South Philadelphia High School. We are talking about a specific school, not even the full district.
    2. Lots and lots of bullying occurs and does not make the news. The only reason this story got any attention at all is because of the number of students impacted this time around – 30 in one day. But all the reports trace violent incidents back far, far further, normally impacting kids one at a time.
    3. In addition, all bullying is not “hit and run” bullying – much of it is sustained over time.
    4. Why would you assume white kids are going to automatically behave better, especially in light of the structural issues of poverty I pointed out?
    5. Why would you assume that these parents have the resources to put their kids in private school? Clearly, the enrollment numbers I linked to show that more students are withdrawing each year than entering, but a lot of parents do not have the option to just move to a safer environment. Fleeing the school is only a solution for the wealthy, as I pointed out in the post.
    6. Low income students are not a fucking disease. They are kids dealing with a lot in and out of school, not things to avoid like the plague. I spent most of my school life in areas with high numbers of low income students, because I was one. Most kids, like their parents, are doing the best they can with the resources that they have. The way to fix this is NOT abandoning the schools, but holding administrators, districts, and national state and local governments responsible for how they prioritize resources and treat students.

    You need to think long and hard about ingrained assumptions before you post again. – LDP

  4. Adrienne wrote:

    I don’t like the suggestions in Short Term Solutions. Students who don’t want to get beat up or taunted will NOT like being pulled out of class in front of other students to be asked to answer a survey on the violence on campus.

    I think that students who attack other students should be charged and arrested. I say this because of the high school teachers I know…they know who the people who are the troublemakers are and who the people are who would be willing to learn from being disclipined and allowed a chance to return to school.

    One teacher dealt with a student who was threatened to be beat up by a group of girls. When the student’s parents came to pick her up, the girls jumped up and hit the student’s parents. (mother and father!) They did not even care that they were dealing with adults, or that there were other adults and students witnessing it. Needless to say the parents defended themselves…and they had been telling their daughter not to engage with them, to wait for them everyday after school at a teacher’s office, to not be violent…and here they actually defended themselves against 8 girls who attacked them.

    We need to talk about the culture of violence. A culture of violence involves a bully/bullies preying on whomever appears to be an easy victim. And adults who do not put a stop to that culture of violence by taking immediate action when it is happening.

    Adults cheering on children’s fights are not something that is logical or stable…I think that teachers who participate in turning their head when a child is getting beat up by their peers should be suspended pending an investigation and fired.

    I find this attitude to be so accurate on the view of this type of violence:

    “It is considered normal for poorer students and minority students to put up with some level of violence while pursuing an education. It’s just the way it is. And the rest of the world is not moved by our plight.”

    I find that to be very true. And I would go out on a limb to say that the same attitude exists within such schools as well. Some children are told to fight back, act tough so you won’t be bullied, to shake it off. Yet there are children getting knocked clean out.

    And the other part of it is, this type of violence goes on even within the same races of students. Too many parents I know have worried about their child’s safety in schools that are having issues with violence. My goddaughter had to defend herself at 12 when a girl decided she was going to jump her afterschool and did. Because the principal was well aware of the issues the girl had been having threatening folks and attacking folks, the principal did not suspend her for defending herself. She did not even let go of the girl until an adult who was going to help her and step in to stop the fight showed up (the principal).

    Adults need to be the children’s allies, in ways where they step in when violence happens, even if it involves calling the cops, because sometimes that is needed…cops need to show up when it is an all out brawl going on, or a group of kids beating the life out of another kid. Or in stepping in to stop those students, even if it means suspensions and expulsions for attacking students and for disrupting the education that has to go on in classrooms and hallways.

  5. Adrienne wrote:

    I forgot to answer the other part of the question…what do we do for a problem at south philadelphia high? a zero tolerance for violence, no matter the cause, racial, gender, or just because you feel like it.

    In the workplace if a coworker attacked you, the workplace could be held liable for not stepping in to stop the violence, and not calling the cops.

    Students should be chosen to read the survey results of students that were kept anonymous on the climate of the school.

    School faculty reading them may be an issue for some students–what if the adult reading what you wrote is the same adult who cheered and laughed when you were getting beat up or who ignored your getting taunted in school?

    School faculty should be given the backup they need to step in to stop violence–walkie talkies allow the adults to reach each other if they need more hands on deck to step in the middle of an attack happening or to look and see whats going on and call for immediate help, including medical care if needed for a student or group of students.

    Cirriculuum on the contributions of Asian-Americans to American history should be included along with Black American history so that the students can be led into discussions about xenophobia is, hatred, ethnic and racial hatred. Children are very intelligent and would participate in the discussions of they were set up in a way that they felt open to discussions.

    I also think this method of teaching/learning called The High School Challenge should be implemented in more schools, including Philadelphia High.

    http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahshow/oprahshow1_ss_20061109

    Click on the right arrow to turn each page to read about this platform.

  6. shemari wrote:

    @atlasien – I believe that tensions like this do actually START in the communities and flow into the schools.

    I’ve found that kids usually pick up anti-immigrant or anti-someothergroup feelings from their parents or adults in their communities and bring them to school. I don’t care if it’s urban areas like South Philly or more upscale areas. The assumption is that these newcomers are going to change our way of life and take away some of our resources. It’s even more pronounced if resources are scarce to begin with. Don’t forget that immigrants are demonized in the media.

    The kids are simply picking up and acting on what they’ve learned from the adults in the communities. Unfortunately, I’ve heard from many parents who feel as if getting bullied is a right of passage. It’s not a big deal until it happens to them. Unless the kids being hurt are White AND middle or upper class, it’s not crisis.

    I hope this school does get some help with solving these issues. I hate to see those at the “bottom” (minorities or poor people) fighting each other for scraps, when they really should be banding together to get a bigger piece of the pie.

  7. Cindy wrote:

    There’s a lot here Latoya! I was disturbed that the principal, at least initially, had refused to meet with the Asian students before they returned to school.

    I found it interesting that some of the Asian students interviewed felt that this was not exclusively racial. What do you think are the orgins of this perspective? I don’t know if there was a lot more back story than we have at this point or if this may be a cultural difference in generalizing the blame. I’ve had this experience with Asian American immigrants who will acknowledge many alternatives other than blatant racism when the root problem was actually blatant racism. Curious about others’ thoughts on this.

  8. Jorge wrote:

    Great post, thank you for taking the time to construct such a thoughtful article (thought I would have preferred a more expedient timing). I would like to stress a few points I think are critical to the discussion:

    1. This is NOT a race war. It is the actions of a relatively few that are engaging in such criminal behavior. I appreciate the student victims that took the time and thoughtfulness to point this out. I take it as a positive sign the ignorant and flamers have been minimal so far.

    2. There is NO justification or excuse for this violence. None. There is no rationale or beating around the bush. What these kids did was wrong, criminal really, period.

    3. Asians are often ignored or not taken seriously when it comes to the national dialogue on race. It doesn’t matter that they occupy leadership positions in the NAACP or were founding members of the Black Panthers. The unwritten rule in this country is, Asians don’t count and don’t deserve the same civil and human rights’ considerations. This needs to change.

    4. The true culprits besides the criminal students are the adults. This is the most egregious of all. That every adult involved: teachers, security, parents, the principal, the superintendent, the school district, the mayor – all have culpability and are cowards and hypocrites for not stepping forward immediately to take ownership of this travesty. All of them need to be held accountable and responsible. Their weak non-answers and poor response are not good enough.

    5. The uncomfortable silence regarding inter-racial tensions needs to be broken. Inter-race tensions and problems are real and need to be dealt with openly and without hindrance. We can have a discussion and take action. The current status quo of “in denial” is not acceptable. We cannot evolve until we do so.

    6. Community – the community has failed as well in my opinion. Nary a blip on the national media radar. Is this the message we’re sending? That we really don’t care? 30 Asian kids, who cares. If it was 30 white kids, 30 black kids, 30 Latino kids then it will be worthy of media attention? Will these 30 students get to go to the White House for cookies and punch with our post-racial president Obama? Will some liberal celebrity sponsor these kids to go to Disney World? Will Oprah, the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton not express their “moral outrage” and challenge the national moral consciousness? If there ever was a case for why we need more APA representation in the media, politics, heck, even entertainment, surely this is a good one.

    Finally, this problem really transcends race altogether. The crime was a violent one. No society can tolerate that regardless of race. Especially at school. This type of behavior is unacceptable and needs to be corrected.

  9. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Adrienne –

    I don’t like the suggestions in Short Term Solutions. Students who don’t want to get beat up or taunted will NOT like being pulled out of class in front of other students to be asked to answer a survey on the violence on campus.

    That’s why I said it would have to be mandatory for all students. Something (non violent) happened at my school, and a selected group of us got polled about various things. The selection was large enough so that none of the findings could be put back on one person, but a lot of people asked a lot of questions. Making it student body wide would solve that – everyone is being asked the same thing – and normalize it in a sense.

    I find that to be very true. And I would go out on a limb to say that the same attitude exists within such schools as well. Some children are told to fight back, act tough so you won’t be bullied, to shake it off. Yet there are children getting knocked clean out.

    Pretty much. My mom told me that if someone was bullying at school, I needed to toughen up and knock them out. That’s a cold thing to say to a kid – but as I am older, I understand it more. Mom was basically telling me she wasn’t able to deal with those battles for me, so I needed to take care of them myself.

    School faculty should be given the backup they need to step in to stop violence–walkie talkies allow the adults to reach each other if they need more hands on deck to step in the middle of an attack happening or to look and see whats going on and call for immediate help, including medical care if needed for a student or group of students.

    That only works if the adults give a damn, and there’s enough staff on site. Both of which feel like a no from those articles.

    Cirriculuum on the contributions of Asian-Americans to American history should be included along with Black American history so that the students can be led into discussions about xenophobia is, hatred, ethnic and racial hatred. Children are very intelligent and would participate in the discussions of they were set up in a way that they felt open to discussions.

    I don’t think that will help in this specific situation. While it is good to look for a more inclusive teaching of history, kids aren’t looking for past expressions of solidarity – they are looking to stop whatever is happening now. I mean, if it was that easy, every troubled school in DC would have adopted an afro-centric curriculum.

    @Cindy –

    I found it interesting that some of the Asian students interviewed felt that this was not exclusively racial. What do you think are the orgins of this perspective? I don’t know if there was a lot more back story than we have at this point or if this may be a cultural difference in generalizing the blame. I’ve had this experience with Asian American immigrants who will acknowledge many alternatives other than blatant racism when the root problem was actually blatant racism. Curious about others’ thoughts on this.

    Your guess is as good as mine. However, I will point out that sometimes, it looks like it is about race when it actually isn’t.

    There was a situation at my high school that was categorized as a race war – black students liked the principal at the time, white students didn’t. The news media (including the Washington Post) picked up on it and wrote some stories on it. However, being on the inside, it didn’t quite go like that.

    Yes, there was a pretty clear aspect to it – many of the supporters were black and many of the folks on the opposition were white – but that erased the dynamics of Asian and Latino students, who split sides. If you looked at that element, you would see that it was a little less about race and more about class and access. The white students (and many of the engaged Asian parents) were wealthier and engaged in their kids’ education, and were really holding the principal to the fire for what the felt were failures on her watch. Many of the black and latino kids were low income, and had parents who couldn’t be there – and those who were tended to remember how much the school was plagued by violence in recent years, and felt the principal was doing a good job. However, the dynamics of the PTSA meetings were really skewed, so the reporting focused a lot on the clearly visible racial divide and less on the class issue, which wasn’t visually identifiable.

    @Jorge –

    Great post, thank you for taking the time to construct such a thoughtful article (thought I would have preferred a more expedient timing).

    Yeah, and I’d prefer to have a budget. But failing that, all readers need to understand that Racialicious is a volunteer run blog, with seven basic writers who all have day jobs. We often receive from 25- 50 tips per week, of which we normally do 15 or so posts per week. And getting an issue covered generally requires someone willing to write about it. We don’t follow anyone’s schedule – not the media, not other bloggers, not anything – because we don’t have the resources to.

    If you are miffed about the lack of coverage, I would suggest you email outlets like CNN, Yahoo, MSNBC, Fox, and your local news affiliates, and ask people with funding why they are remaining silent.

    Also,

    If it was 30 white kids, 30 black kids, 30 Latino kids then it will be worthy of media attention?

    Beware of false equivalencies. Asian Americans are not the only ones who are not considered news worthy. The kids at the swimming pool didn’t get media coverage until a while after the event actually happened. And as I said before, class figures heavily here too – I’d bet if these kids were in Park Slope, and were rich exchange students instead of the children of newer immigrants, there would have been more coverage. The media shrugs partially because of the fact that violence is low income communities is expected. It bears repeating that these types of attacks have been happening for *years* – the only thing that elevated this story was the sheer number of students impacted. And even that wasn’t enough to get more than a passing mention on the news.

  10. Jorge wrote:

    @Latoya – Thank you for your response. My parenthetical remark regarding timing was fair. And meant to be tongue in cheek (next time I will add a smiley face, :) ). I fully appreciate what you (collectively) do here and thought I had adequately addressed that point.

    I’m not sure if you are being defensive or sarcastic (the problem with internet communication), but I think the “if you are miffed contact these media outlets” is a bit condescending and dismissive. It is akin to when those aforementioned media outlest respond with, “start your own blog/news site”. Simply suggesting coverage of this issue is absolutely fair and relevant especially given the theme of this site. I call it holding the media accountable. I stand by my comment and believe it to be more than reasonable

    I am aware of false equivalencies, which is why I phrased it in a form of a question. It was designed to provoke thought. You bring up a great point of class and a history of media neglect. Actually, I think many of the points brought up are worthy of their own threads. There are too many points too satisfactorily distill in one lone thread.

    Out of everything I posted, did you really think the only thing worthy to respond to were those two comments (you responded to)?

  11. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Jorge –

    Neither miffed or sarcastic – that’s a suggestion. We’re a media outlet that reaches 10,000 readers per day on no budget. The outlets I pointed to reach millions – and they are actually fairly responsive to people’s criticism. I do notice that in the social justice community, at large, there is a much heavier focus on what peers do rather than demanding coverage from local media outlets. But that is exactly how race and class disparities in the media persist – because people only agitate with each other and do not take their concerns to those whose job it is to cover these issues.

    CNN ran an article during the election on the outrage at black women being perceived as unable to decide to vote with their race or with their gender. But that article was entirely due to another article that had run earlier in the day saying (without much proof) that black women were having trouble deciding which part of their anatomy to vote with. The second article would have never come about if not for the outcry from the first.

    However, I will take some umbrage for your view of the term “suggestion” – generally, we get two types of submissions. One is “have you seen x issue,” which is a suggestion. Another is “why didn’t you cover x issue if you claim to be about race/why didn’t you cover this faster/why don’t you ever cover x issues” which generally earns you a more curt response. We have no shortage of people telling us how to spend our time; however, most of these people cannot be bothered to help build the space through contributing fully formed pieces, in the Racialicious voice, that are ready to go. If that doesn’t happen, the issue will wait until one of us is able to carve out the time to write these pieces. We are aware time is of the essence in the news cycle – however, it’s often a resource that we do not have. And since we often do these in the wee hours of the morning, or late, after work, when we’d really rather be sleeping, “this could have been more timely” is never something a writer wants to read in the comments to their post.

    News organizations rely on your viewership – therefore, you as a media consumer hold power when you agitate for change. And, you should apply that power to those who can put some might behind it – the only paper keeping up with this story is the Philadelphia Inquirer, and that is shameful. If we demand more from our national news, we just may get it.

    In addition, I wouldn’t be discouraged if nothing happens right away. The mainstream media was about a month late on the launch of the S.I.S. Barbie line. (We were a couple weeks late on covering it). But their scrutiny is able to do a lot more – like push Mattel to comment, or highlight issues of race and representation to larger audiences. See also the Jena 6, which was in the blogosphere for six months before breaking into the MSM – and after breaking, became an enormous matter in discussions of race. On the balance, getting mainstream media coverage – particularly if you are able to frame the conversation – is more effective than galvanizing the blogosphere, purely because of reach.

    I warned you about false equivalencies because often, those are used to derail arguments online. I approved your comment, but deleted one that asked if the coverage would have been different if all the Asian female students were dating white men. In addition, often times, those kinds of questions show a failure to understand the struggles of other groups – often, people ask those questions as a passive aggressive way of saying “this wouldn’t happen to black people!” or something else equally silly, when this type of media distortion happens to all of us outside of the dominant paradigm. Asking those kinds of questions often serves to pit marginalized groups against each other, instead of focusing in on the dynamics at play. And you can see a little of that derailing on the links post.

    I generally respond to clarify or challenge people, not affirm – I didn’t respond to atlasien either, because her points were good. They stand alone, no need to address them further.

  12. Jorge wrote:

    @Latoya – Thank you for your clarification (and your patience with a newb). I appreciate you taking the time to explain things. I found your response to be very insightful and constructive.

    I am not very comfortable with writing and therefore do not post very often (hardly ever actually). I only chose to post here due to the sparse nature of the dialogue. The majority of racialicious threads I enjoy are chock full of comments which usually cover what I would like to say.

    Again, I appreciate the thoughtful response Latoya. I can happily retire to lurking again though I may emerge from time to time to participate.

  13. CVT wrote:

    As a (former) teacher working with kids that reflect similar backgrounds of those involved in this case (immigrants, kids from poverty, kids surrounded by violence, etc.), I just don’t know if many of the suggestions are realistic.

    The fact is: I have no doubt that this school is understaffed. Due to its populace (students below poverty-line), they don’t have the funding. Due to the lack of funding, they can’t afford enough teachers or other staff. So beefing up security just isn’t going to happen (and, again, who says “more security” is going to change the fact that security was more or less involved in these beatings?).

    Getting folks from Teach for America . .. I’m sorry – but I’ve seen exactly what unprepared, inexperienced, under-exposed (to non-middle-class life) teachers do in situations like this; they generally make things worse. They really do. Not because they aren’t trying, but because they just don’t have the skills.

    And that’s the real problem. Schools like this have ridiculously high staff turnover – because what staff can mentally survive this kind of environment? The people that stick around are those that can’t leave – and have probably just learned to “let it go.” So staff is going to be young and inexperienced (because the experienced teachers are probably going to avoid that school) or burnt-out and just on auto-pilot. The dynamic, engaged teachers that it would take to really facilitate true conversations and dialogue between the various groups of students? Probably absent. Or, if they are there, probably in too few numbers to be able to make a difference on a large level. And, in a year or two, I bet they’re going to bail (or quit, mentally).

    The only solution that would work is get experienced folks (who know how to work with these kids, and have these kinds of conversations) and load up the school with them. Everything else is a temporary easing of symptoms without ever curing any underlying sickness. And, since getting the right kind of staff is a matter of money . . .

    I do like the idea of surveying EVERYBODY (yeah, you NEVER isolate just the victims – or just the attackers, either). Perhaps you could hire on just a couple of experienced youth workers to do some heavy work with the victims and the offenders, specifically. Over the course of a year, done right, you could make some strong headway, and even bring the two groups together (near the end) to really SEE each other. I’ve done that kind of work before, and it’s beautiful, when done right (and tragic, when done wrong).

    Then there’s a chance that, if the middle-ground kids (the “just going along to avoid their own pain”) see the two extremes co-existing, things can die down a bit.

    A bit.

    Sadly, until people are willing to put the resources in (not just throwing money in, but getting the right people to use the money on), this kind of thing isn’t going to stop in our lifetimes . . .

  14. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Jorge –

    Don’t worry, you’re fine. And today is Monday, we tend to max visits on Wednesday – this one might be a slow burn post. (Or at least, I hope.)

    @CVT –

    Mad respect from where you are coming from, teach. But – speaking as a low income student who attended a divided school, and one who got singled out – I do think these solutions would work, though I am relying on something that may not apply: shame.

    Our school was underfunded too. But when all that drama hit the papers, suddenly the superintendent was making personal visits and somehow, someone found the money to fix the problems we documented in the newspaper. And since the school officials already discussed blowing money on those vague solutions, I figure they could reroute into something more effective.

    I get where you are coming from on Teach for America – I just think bodies in the door are important, and I am not sure where schools can find the money to get as many people as they need. (Especially considering – and again, not in Philly – how it seems easier to get money for tech surveillance, like cameras, than for staff.) And due to the situations described by teachers, I do think more people can help. Again, not in a breaking up fights capacity (only pros that know how to deal with kids, which is why I am also against introducing the police force into the student population) but to watch and document attacks like the punch and run the teacher witnessed. The teacher probably had to go back to class – but perhaps it could help if the teacher could have someone else (like a TA) go and help the student, or try to get a description of the attacker.

    In addition, if the community rallied, this could help , especially if professionals in mental health and counseling volunteered services- but that needs much more support than the 100 or so people who showed up for the student rally.

  15. Jon wrote:

    This is happening all over America where the victim is just a few people.

  16. MissWorst wrote:

    Latoya,
    I normally follow your stuff on Jezebel and I am a lurker over here. I wanted to thank you for your excellent break down and analysis of this event.

    I taught at South Philadelphia High School for several years. I also taught in two other high schools in Philadelphia prior to that.

    Part of the problem at South Philly (and at other schools like it) is that this type of chaos and dysfunction is tolerated and even expected. It truly is the “soft bigotry of low expectations” but not in the way that that phrase was originally meant. Students are allowed to roam through the hallways unchecked during class time, accumulate hundreds of class cuts a year (yes, hundreds) and commit multiple violent incidents without any real intervention other than a three day suspension here and there. I want to stress that this is a relatively small number of students compared to the size of the overall student body. But, when these students are allowed to continue this behavior without intervention or serious punishment, it creates a culture where this kind of bullying and violence is the norm. And, it IS robbing hundreds of kids a year of their education.

    I taught some wonderful students of all races at South Philadelphia High School, but I never got a break. I had 27 minutes to eat lunch and my classroom never had less than 10 kids in it during lunch. They weren’t comfortable going to the lunch room. (These students mostly African-American and Asian.) These students wouldn’t go downstairs to get their “freebie” because of the chaos in the lunchroom and I couldn’t afford to feed them very often on my salary so they went without lunch because it was safer. I gave many of the suggestions that you name above (ISS, figuring out who the most violent offenders were and figuring out interventions and moving to expel if interventions weren’t enough, rostering kids strategically and creating a concrete plan and pathway to college) and tried to advocate for implementing them. Some I was able to implement only within the walls of my own classroom. Others were tried school wide (and I certainly wasn’t the only teacher advocating for them) but without the necessary funds/planning and predictably failed.

    For example, a previous administrator attempted to hold ISS. However, the only staff member available to mind the ISS room was a slightly off-her-rocker non-teaching assistant who tended to pick fights with the students. The ISS room descended into chaos quickly when the kids figured out she couldn’t keep track of them.

    This is a complex problem and the system is truly broken. I find it terribly interesting that the teachers asked for more cameras every year that I worked there and were turned down due to a lack of funds. Suddenly, there seem to be funds for cameras. Things I bought with my own money as a teacher in Philly: chalk (yes, chalk), notebook paper, copy paper, novels, pencils, pens, student binders, a fan (in a classroom on one of the upper floors with no air conditioning and windows that were bolted shut, I had to provide my own fan.)

    But, I think one of the biggest factors is what you mention above. Certain communities (generally low-income) have been conditioned through decades of institutionalized racism and classism that violence is something that just happens and that an inferior education is what you get and no one will really pay attention anyway. It is internalized and it sickens me.

    This is something my students said often but they knew that they weren’t getting the educational experience they deserved. When I gave them an assignment to write speeches about their own communities during a unit about civil disobedience, every last one of them wrote about the violence in the school and the community. And every last one wanted it to stop. Every. Last. One. I am glad that this group of students is standing up to say no more and demanding what they deserve. Every student at South Philadelphia High School deserves better. Every. Single. One.

    And, the adults have let them down. I include myself in that. I followed a group of students from their sophomore year through their graduation and then I left. I was exhausted and I was at a loss for how to make it better and I didn’t want to become someone who tolerated it. But, I let them down by leaving because I exercised my cultural privilege and left. The students at Southern and countless schools like it don’t always have that option. We, as adults, owe them better.

    An aside to CVT – while I understand your basic argument that inexperienced teachers aren’t ideal for tough schools, please leave the assumptions about Teach For America out of it. There are TFA teachers who make amazing contributions to their schools and who stay years after their initial commitment. There are also TFA teachers who embody exactly what you describe. But, I could say the same about traditionally prepared teachers. Please don’t paint such a large and varied group of people with such a broad stroke. I know for a fact that some of the most vocal proponents of reform and change within South Philly High are Teach For America teachers – and many of them don’t come from the middle class backgrounds you assume. There is certainly room for debate around Teach For America and teacher preparation but I don’t think this is the place for it.

  17. AsianBrother wrote:

    You left out uniforms.

  18. PatrickInBeijing wrote:

    Great post Latoya, and an excellent analysis.

    I want to step back and look at a bigger picture, which is where all of the stereotypes and ideas come from. The greater white society puts forth stereotypical ideas about POC in such a large volume that it is no wonder that many children buy into them.

    In most of the coverage of this problem that I have seen (limited, perhaps), there is a tendency to put it all on “two” desperate cultures, while excluding the mainstream culture (”hey, we have nothing to do with what happens in schools like this”).

    Programs, funding, many crucial parts of what happens in a school are determined “downtown” in administrations which have no interest in creating safe environments or a creative culture for poor people (which often translates into especially POC folks, but not exclusively).

    Then when the inevitably problems of their culture of neglect arise, they just say, see those poor POC are all racist, and it isn’t our fault.

    BS. Who decided what kinds of programs and funding go into the schools? If it isn’t downtown, it comes from state capitals and from Washington.

    We need to ask about what happened not only in context of issues in this particular school (and I don’t mean to belittle their problems) but in the context of the greater society. As a white male, I can’t step back and go “not my problem” when it is indeed my problem.

    The culture of neglect that allows issues and problems to fester comes from the greater culture, and to merely blame it on the people who finally throw punches at each other is to miss the role that the greater society has in creating the environment in which punches are thrown…

    Thanks as always for being here….

  19. gatamala wrote:

    Part of the problem at South Philly (and at other schools like it) is that this type of chaos and dysfunction is tolerated and even expected. It truly is the “soft bigotry of low expectations” but not in the way that that phrase was originally meant. Students are allowed to roam through the hallways unchecked during class time, accumulate hundreds of class cuts a year (yes, hundreds) and commit multiple violent incidents without any real intervention other than a three day suspension here and there. I want to stress that this is a relatively small number of students compared to the size of the overall student body. But, when these students are allowed to continue this behavior without intervention or serious punishment, it creates a culture where this kind of bullying and violence is the norm. And, it IS robbing hundreds of kids a year of their education.

    As SPHS is not a unique situation, arguably thousands upon thousands (to be conservative) children are having their education disrupted. These are the kids who will end up stuck in a permanent underclass.

    Many current and former teachers have explained how a very violent, albeit minority, portion of the student body disrupts the learning process and terrorizes the rest.

    At some point, we must accept that this violent minority is not worth saving as it means sacrificing scant resources (this must be remedied as well) that would be better served educating the educable.

    Later on, when this situation is stabilized, we can turn more attention to this violent few.

    But for now, they must be excised from the school system.

  20. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @gatamala –

    See, I don’t know about that. In my (admittedly limited) experience, if the violent offenders are removed from school, they end up on the streets during the day time, and end up in the pipeline for the adult prison system. I agree these kids should be removed from general matriculation – but I don’t think expulsion is going to solve the problem, especially if these kids are going home to the same communities as the others.

  21. Bagelsan wrote:

    And as I said before, class figures heavily here too – I’d bet if these kids were in Park Slope, and were rich exchange students instead of the children of newer immigrants, there would have been more coverage.

    I agree; I went to a pretty well-off high school with a large 2nd/3rd+ generation Asian-American population and if anything like this had happened there I’m pretty sure the community would have *flipped out* and the story would be all over.

    Of course, my high school was like 80% white/15% Asian/5% Other so the racial dynamics would have been very different from the start — I don’t know *what* would cause something like that at my school, honestly, ’cause there was very little economic pressure to hate immigrants (everyone’s parents being doctors and lawyers, Asian or otherwise, which meant most kids didn’t worry about money or jobs) and very little opportunity for minority-on-minority violence just due to the numerical breakdown.

  22. Evan wrote:

    My apologies to the moderator. That message should never have been posted. I will learn better next time.

  23. B-Nerd wrote:

    @ LaToya
    Expelling the violent offenders in the student body may not solve the overall societal problem of juvenile delinquency among the poor of South Phillly. But it will solve the immediate problem of violence in the school which is the relevant issue of this post. If you get rid of the knuckleheads, create rules and regulations against the violence, and have adequate enforcement, then the rest of the students will fall in line. Violence will subside and you will have order in the halls. After you have established security, then you have workshops about tolerance, teen summits, peer courts, etc. I’m sorry if the expelled perpertrators end up in the criminal justice system. Hopefully, they learn the error of their ways at some point and turn their lives around. In the meantime, you can stop them from robbing the majority of children from a safe education environment….Does Common Sense still have a place in this debate?

  24. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @B-Nerd –

    Kids aren’t numbers on a balance sheet. You may have “deleted” the problem from the school, but you just shifted it to the outside community, where these same kids live. If someone is suspended/expelled, many times they are just hanging around the neighborhood, getting into the same kind of shit. And this time, it happens where we *really* won’t hear about it.

    Have you lived in one of these neighborhoods/gone to a school with discipline problems/taught at a school with discipline problems? I make it clear that I’m just armchair quarterbacking here – but if this problem was as easy as input/output, it would be solved right now.

    MissWorst above taught at the HS in question, and when you look, you see a pretty complicated picture. CVT also chimed in, saying the money for enforcement of these ideas was probably not coming, and every year you have a crop of already with the program kids leaving and a crop of new kids (from the neighborhood, hanging out with those kids you expelled) coming in. You also assume expelling the worst offenders will fix the problem – but how do you know there isn’t just a predatory culture at the school? How do you know removing this round of violent offenders will solve the problem in perpetuity – especially if administrators seem to be actively encouraging divisions between students? How long will it take for that dynamic to pop up again?

    You ask where is the common sense. I ask why people seem to think life is an after school special with one clear cut cause and one clear cut solution. Personal experience tells me things never work that way.

  25. atlasien wrote:

    I also don’t think removing the worst offenders is going to do anything in the long term. Even though I actually agree that a minority of them are so screwed up and violent it would take take a team of therapists to even make a dent in their problems.

    The first issue is, how do you really know exactly who these irredeemables are? How do you distinguish? Like I said, past a tipping point, there is no abusive minority. The majority are engaging the abuse. Kids in the middle are afraid, so they join in the abuse so they won’t stand out. They don’t do it because they like it, it’s simply a survival tactic. They need to fit in, or look hard, or not stand out. But it’s easy to mistake this population for the active instigators.

    Second, if you take them out, what happens next year, when a new batch comes in?

    Third, where do you put them? Does the overloaded juvenile criminal justice even want to take them (doubtful)? Then what happens to them once they go there? The get even more screwed up, have kids, screw up their kids, their kids grow up violent, and the cycle keeps going.

    Based on my experiences of abuse in school, I can’t even pinpoint who the worst abusers and instigators were. There were just so many of them. And I’m sure most of them grew up to be perfectly nice people and some are nurses and educators and so on and they’re just careful not to think too hard about what they did back then. Or they do think about it, and they feel guilty ( I had a couple people over the years try to contact me, hinting they wanted to apologize, but I’m just not interested in revisiting that stuff for their benefit).

    The school environment has to change. I do believe punishment is necessary. But punish the adults first. Adults have more power to change their actions than children do.

  26. aznmetalchick wrote:

    Actually, it is the whole district. http://bit.ly/11iKCv

  27. gatamala wrote:

    LP~ I understand that point but disagree. This violent minority (ringleaders who others may emulate in order to deflect attention from themselves) is going to end up in prison…now…or later. School is not a babysitter/holding cell for juveniles. This is not fair to teachers (most of whom are women that have to break up fights & deal with assaults by irate parents) and students (young folks who want to learn, not juveniles looking to pass the time). Odds are that these students have high truancy rates, so they are probably out roaming the community but will circle in next to folks their age at 3:30 (e.g., CH metro/the truancy officer was asleep in a van in front of Target).

    Expulsion will stop kids from being afraid to raise their hands, walk down the halls to class or eat in the lunchroom. The immediate threat of bodily harm is not in the learning environment. No, this is not a long term solution. Yes, a culture of school violence must be addressed. But we have to stop the bleeding first.

    I recommend checking out some of Colbert King’s articles on schools.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/26/AR2009112602065.html

  28. gatamala wrote:

    aznmetalchick~thanks for the link. I found this that is relevant to all viewpoints

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/multimedia/7579032.html

  29. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @gatamala –

    Check the link aznmetalchick just dropped. (And thanks for that AMC!) Read to page three. Some of the affected kids are being targeted on the way to school. And by whom? Probably kids who are out of school. One admin took it seriously and solved the problem inside her school, but this type of thing bleeds. It doesn’t just live inside the walls of the school, and getting to school is still difficult, how is that working?

    I agree that school is not a holding cell, nor should it be. But I disagree that everyone who does ignorant shit like punching people at school is automatically bound for a prison cell anyway.

    By all means, remove those students from interacting with others. Put them in a school designed for students that cannot interact with others (like Mark Twain in our area). But expulsion without figuring out the who or why is extreme, and it won’t solve the problems. Why do these kids think its ok or funny to punch people in the face? Why are they not afraid of consequences? Why are so many people participating in these violent actions? What affiliations are present here? Why are the students targeted en masse are apparently foreign born, while American born students are still fearing violence but able to attend school.

    Your link to King’s work proves my point – you can fix the danger inside, but there is still danger outside. And by removing these students from the school system, particularly the followers, you will start to lose track of them. But, as human beings do, they resurface. Instead of being exposed to schools, structure, and adult mentoring they’re hanging out at bus stops, looking for easy prey – like the kids trying to get an education.

    And what else are they supposed to do? Get jobs and become productive members of society? Going to jail fucks you up in so many ways, it isn’t even funny. And since jails no longer funnel resources into rehabilitation, it is basically a holding cell. Feed in, feed out, violent acts occur again, feed in, feed out.

    You want to say fuck these kids? Send them to jail? Fine. Deal with the fully grown problem 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now when they stay in the neighborhood, teach their kids to do the same shit because they never learned another way, wonder why the hell the neighborhood went downhill since half the adults aren’t working and have records starting from when they were 16, then act surprised when every vicious piece of the cycle of poverty repeats. Keep criminalizing kids.

    What’s next? Give every kid that lives in a bad neighborhood an armed escort to school, since police outside the gates won’t solve the shifting problem?

    A culture of school violence is a symptom of a LOT of failures outside of the school walls, and looking at school only solutions is like popping cough drops when you have pneumonia.

  30. gatamala wrote:

    I don’t necessarily disagree with you Latoya, but not everything can be dealt with simultaneously with scant resources. My first priority would be to focus on the students that do want to learn. I have no problem with alternative schools, as long as problem students that are disruptive are removed from the mainstream school system.

  31. PatrickInBeijing wrote:

    @gatamala What scant resources? The US has all of the resources it needs, it just chooses to allocate them into wars, macmansions, things for the rich, etc. It could provide the programs these kids need.

    Let me defend the “irredemables”. What are we doing deciding that kids can’t be helped, even if they are violent, or have major problems? The truth is, we can help the vast majority of kids if we reach them in time. Many of them have just never gotten the love and resources they need (I am tempted to say all, but hate absolutes).

    Punishment? We need programs that provide positive reinforcement. Punishment is a weak agent of change, assuming we want to change kids (assuming we give a f*ck, which is not one of my regular assumptions about society). If we have the time and resources, we can solve these problems in peaceful ways.

    WE KNOW THIS. There have been too many successful programs that turned kids around, even troubled kids. We just don’t do anything about it.

    The failures aren’t on the kids, they are on society. We can both protect kids who face violence and anger, and help kids have violence and anger inside themselves, if we want to…

    @Latoya, I agree. As a society, we create our own problems. That is bad enough for those in the middle class (and with white skin privilege), but we need to see the kids who are doing these bad things as victims as well, they are victims of social neglect.

    In modern middle class America, people are often disconnected from society. For poor people, the disconnection is worse, so that their problems are allowed to fester and go unsolved until they seem to be unsolvable. But they aren’t most problems require resources and attention. We’re just too damn lame to do any thing…

  32. CVT wrote:

    I’m getting back in this late, but a few things:

    -gatamala – you think kids aren’t getting expelled at a ridiculous rate in public schools all across the States? It never solves the problem. I know, because I taught (on a brief hiatus in China) at the school where those kids got sent; every year, after the “official” numbers count at the public schools (when schools can bill for their number of heads), they’d expell a large number of the “troublemakers.” We’d get them, put in heavy work with families, the kids, and more – and the kids would (generally – not always, but more often than not) have success. The schools where they came from? Still issues of violence, crime, drugs, etc. So was it really the kids, or the system?

    After years of experience – there’s not a doubt in my mind that it’s the system. This system is so broken, it’s perfect for replacing any “small group of problem kids” with a new set – because it produces them. Expulsions solve the problem for about three weeks before somebody else steps up. Therefore – keep those kids, enroll them in a special program that really WORKS with them (instead of just letting them do whatever), and see if they can’t just end up being the ones that make changes.

    In the end, of course, you do have to have rules and consequences, so if – in enforcing that – some kids end up losing their placement, that’s a matter of course. You’ve got to be consistent if you want to create safety. But letting it all happen and then just expelling once public attention pops up? No-go.

  33. CVT wrote:

    @ LaToya -
    I get you in that there probably will be increased money-flow due to the public scrutiny brought on by all this, but – knowing the system – that’s going to be one-year’s worth, which will never solve the problem (and like you said, it’ll probably go to more cops, or metal detectors or something else useless and more apt to create exactly the environment they claim to be trying to end). I’m just thinking more general – something that could apply in the leaner years, and to other schools, as well. My ultimate goal in life is education reform, so I love opportunities like this to hash it out with other concerned, experienced, knowledgeable folks to come up with ideas. So I appreciate what you’re doing here.

    And you are right – an extra body is an extra body, it helps. Managed right, I guess anybody that is trying to help can do so (but I emphasize “managed right”).

    @ Miss Worst – my apologies. Honestly. You’re right – a lot of assumptions were thrown in about TFA, and I only have limited experience with them. I have obvious biases based on my teaching experience and things that happened at my school, but it is unfair to generalize it to a whole program. Oh – and I will never say that “traditionally-prepared” teachers are really “prepared” for this kind of work, either. As you said – a conversation for another time and place. But I’d be interested in having it.

    Perhaps I’ll try to start that up at my blog and link it up here (if that’s cool with LaToya, et al.).

    Mod Note – Feel free, or just email it to us, so we can cross post. – LDP