Comments

1. abrildelsol wrote:

   I think it *is* a loss. It’s just a loss that’s worth it. You lose something awful in order to gain something beautiful, and that’s important. But that doesn’t make it – initially – any less painful.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 9:42 am ¶

2. N wrote:

   Oh, its a loss for sure. Perhaps the start of something new and better, but still a loss. Like when a black Baptist in the Bible Belt comes out as an atheist and loses their family and community. The social consequences are pretty high.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 10:46 am ¶

3. mk wrote:

   This was a much-needed reminder right now…cause I don’t think it’s a one-time loss. It’s worth it, and I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t speak out, but I think every time I learn something that I didn’t know and feel like I have to start speaking up when someone says something that’s offensive or clueless or just plain wrong, there’s that potential that I’ll lose someone. I’m struggling with that right now in regards to a specific issue, and I’ve been having trouble finding my voice this time. So thanks Racialicious.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 11:10 am ¶

4. mk wrote:

   I should add to my comment abov…gotta recognize that having the choice about whether to speak up and put myself in the situation described above is privilege. Even when it stops feeling like a choice and more like something I have to do because of what I know or who I care about, it still is a choice. And it will be, until we manage to seriously change how the world works.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 11:59 am ¶

5. Soda & Candy wrote:

   I cannot tell you how many “dealbreaker conversations” – as I call them – I’ve had since moving to the Southern US.

   That remark someone makes that lets you know you are not going to be close friends… It’s sad.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 12:12 pm ¶

6. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

   I had a white boyfriend who was the first true love of my life. He was a very intelligent, progressive guy who cared about civil rights and equality for all human beings. Whenever he spoke up against racism, white people would call him a “n-gger lover” and accuse him of trying to be black and that he was ashamed to be white.

   damn.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 12:59 pm ¶

7. A.D. Nix wrote:

   I’ve had this conversation with my boyfriend (he’s white, I’m black) both in the context of race and gender. He does not hesitate to speak up with ‘friends’ but I know of instances involving professors and colleagues where there was some real loss calculating before . . . awkward, terrified bumbling that EVENTUALLY blossomed into a cogent stance.

   And I can relate. If I say something about my boss calling a client a “bitch” repeatedly and going to her boss in the hopes of getting her fired (because she was doing her job . . . ) am I going to loose my job in a shitty economy?

   But when fighting for equality is literally fighting for your life, silence bites you in the ass in the long run. When the effects feel less direct, less tangible, how do you really make the case to someone potentially alienating people they like/love?

   Silent Whites may risk being on the wrong side of history as we progress and, you know, willfully facilitating pain and oppression. But that’s not quite as compelling in the short term as “keeping your (racist) friends” and “not being a downer.” Getting to the point where one cares ENOUGH to speak takes a lot of work and is often coupled with some other interpersonal or environmental issue that compounds -ism peccadilloes thus mitigating the “loss” – especially with close friendships (i.e. racist + we’re into different things now = dealbreaker or racist + just noticed you’re a raging narcissist = dealbreaker).

   I feel like creating allies among those who benefit from injustice (beyond my friends/family/loved ones) is one of the hardest things.

   @ mk
   Thank you for adding that. It’s something that I experience over and over when I, as a heterosexual cis woman with a queer sister, go to battle with homophobes.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 1:31 pm ¶

8. Bandersnatch wrote:

   I’m white, and yeah, people I know have kicked me out of the club and ostracized me. And I often feel alienated in groups of white acquaintances or even friends because of my outspokenness. Yes, sometimes it’s hard to deal with even though I am acting as my true self.

   But in the minds of strangers, I am in “the club,” and there’s a lot of privilege in that because I am treated well by society as a whole, even if my white acquaintances don’t. Regardless of the existence of this “perceived loss,” it is rather small. The white privilege still exists. And even if they appear to reject my comments, they might end up taking them more seriously than comments about racism from a POC, just because I’m white.

   So, essentially, I’m not sure if it’s a you’re-either-in-or-out thing.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 4:08 pm ¶

9. Sonic wrote:

   It never gets better, to be honest and it sucks for both POCs and whites who actively stand up against racism. I’ve just learned to be okay with having less friends and trusting people less (I live in the south where it’s pretty much okay to still be racist).

   But at the end of the day, I feel like I have to be able to answer the question: “Did you do the right thing and stand up for what you know is wrong?” honestly and I hope the whites who face ostracism for standing up for what is right can at least say “yes” emphatically to this question. For me, knowing I did the right thing has to matter more than keeping an artificial sort of peace.

   I do empathize because it’s hard – no one likes being the “PC patrol” or the “too-sensitive” coworker, but it needs to be done. But it also sucks because like Robert Cormier once wrote, doing the right thing doesn’t always feel good.

   Posted 20 Nov 2009 at 8:50 pm ¶

10. anon wrote:

    Regardless of the existence of this “perceived loss,” it is rather small.

    I’ve gotta disagree with this. I don’t believe in karma or heaven or anything like that, so I don’t really believe I will personally be rewarded for opening my mouth, but I do believe in, yanno, keeping my job and getting a chance at a good education if I *don’t* open my mouth. (And yeah, it will help society overall to be antiracist and anti-various-ists but that’s an awfully abstract reason to risk so much immmediately.) Having the people you live and work around respect you (or at least not actively dislike you) is a necessity for survival on all sorts of levels. And as an absolutely bottom-rung brand-new white woman in a virtually all-white organization my opinion wouldn’t be taken seriously anyways.

    So I keep my mouth shut about a fair amount — most of it isn’t actually race-related, more fatphobic or transphobic or ableist — and it’s not stuff I want to listen to but it’s not stuff I want to risk my job/education to call out either. And hey, I’m kinda fat but I don’t hear the skinny people calling out the fatphobic stuff — they want to keep the respect of their “superiors” too. Nor do I hear the ableist stuff called out by the fully abled either. So why should I be the one to take one for the team (again? I’ve done it other places and I’m tired of losing friends and gaining nothing.)

    This is pretty devil’s advocate-y, but I’m being honest. It’s just currently not worth it to me, and downplaying the significant cost of calling out that stuff isn’t going to convince me (yeah, I already feel *bad* about it but I don’t want to be ostracized, even by sort of assholish people.) It’s not like I’m proud of all the times I’m quiet but being able to ignore certain stuff is a privilege that I can’t turn down. And the stuff I “can’t” ignore, being more applicable to myself, I ignore anyways. It’s still worth it.

    Posted 21 Nov 2009 at 12:05 am ¶

11. rebecca wrote:

    I can’t say I’ve felt kicked out of the club so much as simply dismissed – dismissal being something that POC have to deal with far more frequently than I do, so I don’t feel like I’ve lost much at this point in time.

    I have few close personal friends and I feel lucky that those I do have are generally willing to try to see from multiple perspectives. I also haven’t been put in any difficult situations at work, for which I’m tremendously thankful. (I can challenge any of my coworkers without fear of repercussion.) But, also, perhaps this is a sign that I’m not doing enough. Loose friends or acquaintances sometimes look at you as if you’ve grown an extra head when you speak up, but that’s deal-with-able. I certainly don’t mourn the “loss” of being able to watch TV or films without noticing racism.

    Posted 21 Nov 2009 at 1:01 am ¶

12. PatrickInBeijing wrote:

    Nice post. I can relate to this as well. Both from my life in the states, and from here (there are a lot of nasty prejudiced white folks living in China, luckily we want nothing to do with each other!).

    It’s tough when you get “kicked out of the club”, but really, half the time, I am kicking my way out. I can’t stand to be around those folks anyway, so it is a relief. I still have plenty of friends.

    Still, there is always a moment of shock. That moment when the person I thought was good and could be someone I could really relate to and trust, shows me that I’m wrong. It always hurts, for at least a moment (sometimes longer, depending on how high my hopes were, and a lot longer if I was thinking this might be a relationship type person…. ).

    After a while, I get used to it. (okay, that is not true, it belongs in the category of lies I tell myself to survive.) And move on.

    For me, what hurts most is when it comes from family members. I NEED to have a family. Can’t pick them, can’t get rid of them. Accept the abuse. Wonder how they turned out that way…… (not sure).

    @all the posters – thanks for great comments.

    I definitely agree that speaking out is the only way to go, I have to live with myself, but so do others!!!

    peace.

    Posted 21 Nov 2009 at 6:01 am ¶

13. c.n.edaw wrote:

    Very interesting. I just wonder how many people actually think about these things in the way the initial poster does.
    I know many of the white guys I’ve dated knew prior to dating me a lot of their friends/associates both past/present had racist leanings or views.
    However, unless that person was openly hostile or insulting those relationships remained intact.
    I certainly know a few of them debated whether it was worth it to speak up, especially among co-workers —but I found it was only usually when it was something that 99 out of 100 people black or white would know IMMEDIATELY said remark/action was racist.
    Otherwise, if I didn’t bring it to their attention they usually didnt notice or feel it was work making “a stink” about.
    I guess I just don’t think most non people of color really 1) are that introspective on issues of race 2)really believe being racist is a “deal breaker” unless someone is burning crosses, dons a white sheet or is hurling the n word at small children.

    Posted 21 Nov 2009 at 6:20 pm ¶

14. ashlynn wrote:

    “It’s not like I’m proud of all the times I’m quiet but being able to ignore certain stuff is a privilege that I can’t turn down. And the stuff I “can’t” ignore, being more applicable to myself, I ignore anyways. It’s still worth it.”

    See, here’s the thing. You have the privilege to ignore racism or racist comments whereas a person like myself, who is a not only a person, but a woman of color, does not. I am expected to take it, yes, but never ignore it. It must penetrate my very thick skin, and it will impact my life in some way. I am denied the right to brush the dirt off my shoulders. Because as a PoC, wherever I go, and especially if there are few or no other PoC around, I am hired to be the Official Spokesperson of ALL People of Color, and part of my job duties are to answer and respond to and be affected by EVERY SINGLE ACTUAL AND PERCEIVED RACIAL THREAT. And if I don’t, not only do I lose my job as the SoAPoC, I just might lose my real paying job as well.

    Apathy is a helluva drug.

    Posted 21 Nov 2009 at 6:36 pm ¶

15. White Latina wrote:

    Rebecca said: “I can’t say I’ve felt kicked out of the club so much as simply dismissed – dismissal being something that POC have to deal with far more frequently than I do, so I don’t feel like I’ve lost much at this point in time.”

    I agree. The white people I know would never want to look like a Big Bad Racist because all racists are bad, bad people who wear hoods, burn crosses and vote Republican, so they’ll do almost anything to avoid talking about race, lest it reveal something uncomfortable about themselves. I’m biracial but pale, so sometimes white folks will let their guard down around me, say something offensive, and when I ask for clarification or contradict them they look at me like I’m a spy or something. That “What are you REALLY?” look. Then they quickly change the subject.

    I wish I could say I always speak up, but sometimes I freeze because I don’t know what to say, or because a part of me didn’t really believe that people talked like that. Then the moment passes, the subject is changed and I don’t know how to bring the conversation back to it. One of the many problems with white privilege is white people don’t see racism as their problem, and that’s why we should be calling each other out on it, but no one has the vocabulary to talk about it over the dinner table with acquaintances. If I point fingers they’ll get defensive and dismiss me, but if I say something more diplomatic like, “What makes you think that?” or “Not everyone has the same options as you” they really don’t get the point.

    Posted 21 Nov 2009 at 9:51 pm ¶

16. mk wrote:

    Anyone have suggestions for favorite blogs/websites re being a good ally (white anti-racist ally in this context, but I’m interested in anything), or about how someone in a position of privilege can do genuine, useful, respectful solidarity work?

    @everyone, yeah, great comments

    Posted 22 Nov 2009 at 2:46 pm ¶

17. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ ashlynn
    YES. If you don’t think it’s worth it to do something about injustice at all (with all that needs to be done and the variety of places one can do it) and that have nothing to do with your ability to pay rent, or the agitation of your grandfather’s weak ticker then . . . That’s not loss calculating. That’s not just refusing to “take” one for the “team” (is one even on that team at all?). That’s exercised apathy. That’s shoring up privilege.

    There are a lot of ersatz allies who play at being invested in equality – that is, as long as no one, particularly the person in question, ever has to be made to feel the least bit uncomfortable ever. If you aren’t fighting the battle on SOME front, then . . . well, I don’t know.

    @ White Latina
    The freezing. Yes. And when you are the target of the aggression, when your very HUMANITY is being challenged, it’s extremely difficult to metabolize the dehumanization, put a band-aid on that shit for the moment (pain to come back to later, natch), correct the input psychologically (”wait – I AM a human being of value and worth”) and then parry.

    There are times when I’ve been almost unable to speak because things are so painful, and times when I’ve had to speak for parties still in shock.

    P.S. I wouldn’t give up on taking the diplomatic approach.

    @mk
    See: Tim Wise.

    Posted 23 Nov 2009 at 1:02 pm ¶

18. mk wrote:

    @ A.D. Nix – Tim Wise ROCKS! I got to hear him speak once, years ago. But sometimes I feel like he’s one of the only voices out there…which I don’t want to be true.

    And I like what you said about your sister. You remind me of my sister

    Posted 23 Nov 2009 at 2:06 pm ¶

19. JL wrote:

    I think this is oversimplifying the issue. It IS a loss, and it’s not small, and it’s not just “losing something awful”. Relationships matter. Damaging or losing a relationship that you value is an awful experience, even when the other person has gross personality flaws.

    Now, you might say, it’s easy to have a relationship with someone in spite of their bigotry, to think the relationship is worth saving, when the bigotry is not directed at you. But I’ve felt the same about friendships where the prejudice was directed at me – sexist male friends, religious friends with a prejudice against atheists, Hispanophobic friends, etc. Obviously I wouldn’t want to be in a position where most of my friends were like that, but it happens (and in some cases, continuing to be friends with them and discussing the matter with them can bring them around). And even people who get it right most of the time can screw up.

    It’s different if you’re dealing with a stranger, of course. Maybe I am crazy or self-destructive, but once I’m friends with somebody I place a very high value on that friendship, even if there’s an aspect of the person that really bothers me. Even if it happened in the course of doing the right thing, I think losing a friend is crushing and a genuine loss.

    Posted 24 Nov 2009 at 2:51 pm ¶

20. sandeep wrote:

    someone brought up family. things were kosher between me and mine until i grew old enough to understand the religion they raised me in and noticed some hypocrisies in the practice. eventually i grew to emphatically exclaim how i wanted to move away from certain practices of the faith and this didn’t sit well with mom and dad who convinced me not to trust my own gut instinct at 13. these sentiments stayed with me until 17 where i was in college and free enough to carry out my plan. the resulting shunning and pain due to that was intense. you could basically say the result was a three year break from having any family whatsoever. the only thing that really brought us together was a death that i experienced. things are better now but that was definately a dark time. and i can definately relate with losing the respect of your peers and support system because of making a decision to be outspoken.

    Posted 25 Nov 2009 at 11:57 am ¶

21. rebecca wrote:

    Here’s something I’m struggling with right now – what do you do when you have an openly racist family member with whom it’s impossible to have much of a normal discussion? As in, the back-and-forth of a normal dialogue just doesn’t occur. (This person has a long history of mental illness.)

    Posted 27 Nov 2009 at 12:42 am ¶

22. rebecca wrote:

    I would like to add that I don’t mean to demean folks who are dealing with mental illness in that comment – the inability to get an exchange of ideas going is particular to my grandfather – but it goes above & beyond white shut-down when attempting to talk about race.

    Posted 27 Nov 2009 at 12:49 am ¶

23. rebecca wrote:

    …I’m sorry to get so off-base here, but the more I think about the history behind the definition of “mental illness,” the less I like the term. This is tricky.

    Posted 27 Nov 2009 at 1:37 am ¶

24. WendL wrote:

    @mk

    Shelly Tochluk’s book Witnessing Whiteness is excellent. She recently started a blog:
    http://www.witnessingwhiteness.com/

    Posted 02 Dec 2009 at 8:11 pm ¶