I’m for gay rights, but…

By Guest Contributor Dumi R. L’Heureux Lewis, originally published at Uptown Notes

So for the past few years I’ve been jousting with my family and loved ones around the issue of same sex marriage and repeatedly found my argument falling on deaf ears. In fact what I most often heard was, “I am for gay rights but…” and what would follow would immediately sweep away any indication of actual support for the union of two people from the same sex. As a service to myself and those with whom I will soon have this discussion with, I’ll provide some statements and my rebuttals. Instead of taking our 45 minutes on spinning wheels, let’s work and see and if we can cover some different ground.

1) “I’m for gay rights but … you can’t compare being Black to being gay.”

I feel you, I understand that being Black is different than being gay, but did you realize even in that statement you’re implying that we don’t have Black gay folk? No really, this is the part of the conversation where you keep on throwing out “they” which you might as well then say “those people.” I know you don’t like me bringing that up, because for so long and so often within the dominant White culture of America Black folks are referred to as “they”, “those people” and even recently “that one.” It’s really a process of othering, trying to make a distinction of who is “in” and should receive privileges and who is “out” (pun intended).

2) No, you’re not getting it, I didn’t choose to be Black and I can’t hide being Black.

Touche, you’re probably don’t remember when you chose to be Black, if you ever did. In fact, since we’re talking – heterosexual to heterosexual, I don’t remember when I choose to be straight, but that’s besides the point. The point is that being “Black” and being “gay”, as we sociologists say are both “socially constructed”. Yeah, fancy academic words but definitely important. By socially constructed I mean that we create the boundaries and meanings for these categories. There is a great film that breaks this down and books, but let’s be real, you ain’t gonna pick up a book or watch a movie in the middle of this blog post, so let me do what I can to break it down now. While we’ve come to think of meaning of Blackness as something that can’t be changed, avoided, and pretty much is like gravity, we’ve forgotten that was created. In fact, the dominant images and tropes of “What is Black”, weren’t even our creation. Think about it, how many people who identify as Black, would say “my skin is actually the color of Black.” Very few, in fact, we respond by saying things like “I’m brown, caramel, dark chocolate, etc.” all descriptors that side-step an imposed moniker. Also have we forgotten that for so many years, the oppression of being Black and not having access to rights made many of our ancestors pass? Yeah, that’s right, not all of us are “definitively Black” and certainly what it means to be Black has carried consequences.

3) That’s my point, almost exactly, you can tell when someone is Black usually, but you never know if they’re gay! Well unless they’re really flamboyant or something.

Ah, I get it, if you are gay you don’t have to “look or act gay” and if you don’t act gay, you’ll be fine in society. Yeah, that’s called passing … well actually more appropriately covering. See, as a Black folks, I really hope we think deeply about oppression and how oppressive it must be to not be able to show your love for someone else. If I walk outside and decide to kiss a strange woman in the middle of the street I won’t get many strange glares (other than folks saying “Dumi’s a wild cat”) but if I love someone of the same gender and walk arm-in-arm with them down the street I’m likely to get screw faces down the block. As a result, we, heterosexual folks often say stuff like, “I don’t care what you do behind closed doors but I don’t want to see it.” Interesting… we live in a society were the physical expression of romantic love between people is common, but almost completely forbidden for certain groups. In order to be one’s self we ask people not to express themselves and “pass” or “cover” for straight. That doesn’t sound very equal or liberated to me. Can you imagine a community where love was the norm and hate was not what we used to regulate others behaviors? (that’s rhetorical)

4) Okay, I get that, but doesn’t it piss you off when they use the Civil Rights Movement for their movement?

Once again, what’s up with the us and them type of thinking. Gay Black folks have been around for a long time, to act as if they are not us is to deny part of ourselves. In fact, the most prominent voice and architect of the Civil Rights Movement was Martin Luther King Jr. His work centered on non-violence which he derived from Gandhi but he learned from Bayard Rustin who was a queer Black man. Gay, Lesbian, Bi and Queer Black folks have been at the center of our movement for rights as well as our cultural and social uplift, why try to write them out of history now? Or rather why not acknowledge the central role they’ve played in the collective Black struggle which should include lgbtq brothers and sisters? We can only say gay folks are piggy-backing on the civil rights movement if we don’t acknowledge the contribution of gay folks to the movement. Now has the equal rights movement around sexuality taken on some tropes that came along during the Civil Rights movement, absolutely! But all subsequent movements do that, in fact, a marker of a successful social movement is an adoption of some its techniques. But let’s not forget what the Civil Rights Movement was about! It was fighting to make the 14th and 15th amendments real!!! Those amendments legally gave Black folks equal civil rights but when we looked at how Black people were treated and what they could do, it is seen that it’s unequal. I think we can take a similar look at the Gay Rights movement which is simply fighting for the same rights that heterosexuals have, be it marriage, adequate healthcare, or to live freely in society.

5) I hear what you’re saying but God made “Adam and Eve” not “Adam and Steve”! We’re a Christian country and marriage is a bond before God between man and woman.

Ah, you got me with that one, I didn’t realize a rhyme could break down an entire situation. Oh wait, no it can’t. There is an entrenched myth in this country that marriage is exclusively a religious, often insinuated Christian, practice that the government sanctions. Not true at all, anthropologists have long observed and discussed marriage as beyond Christian and beyond the sanctioning of the state. It is true here that many associate the two, but that does not seem logical that it must also be seen as such. First, the mythos of the United States as Chrisitian nation is based on ignoring that colonies were founded out of the fleeing of religious oppression. How ironic is it that religion would then become the basis for oppression in 2009 and 1619 when non-Christian Africans arrived in captivity and quickly were proclaimed subhuman and savage. If you are going to invoke the credo of a nation, then I’d suggest you invoke the ones of equality and diversity, which means you are welcome to have your beliefs but your beliefs should not be the basis for impinging on other’s rights.

Now I know by this point you likely still don’t agree with me, but I do want you to see there is validity to a discussion about gay rights and the civil rights or more importantly gay rights as civil and human rights! I do want you to see that all to often we neglect and relegate a part of our people to inhumane and unjustified treatments through our active and passive condoning of covering. I do want us all to think about what MLK meant when he said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” I do want us to really grapple with the fact that if Huey Newton in the 1970s could see the connection, we should be able to see it in 2009. I wrote this because I worry about a people’s ability to turn a blind eye to injustice in a world and nation that often has suggested the unjust is just the way it should be. For a people who have fought for existence and rights, it should only be natural to continue that fight with our brothers and sisters.

***this piece is designed to be a primer and conversation starter. there are many more things to say, but wanted to get the ball rolling and get some basic ideas out there***

Share and Enjoy:

Comments

MoonCat wrote:

*clap clap clap

very nice.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 11:08 am ¶
pmsrhino wrote:

OMG can I say right now that I hate “but” conversations. I used to get on my mom all the time for having them. “That’s fine but-” “I know but-” Stop saying but already! Makes me want to rip my hair out when people do that. It’s like saying I totally agree but i totally disagree. Makes no damn sense. Just say what you want to say without prefacing it with something to soften the blow or something. It does NOT soften the blow.

I also gave up on having gay rights and pro-choice and such debates with people like my dad who I know will NEVER change their minds and will just give me the “I have gay friends” line that he always gives. Which is a big fat lie because he HAD gay friends, but he seems to have lost them all after he became born again. At least I have never witnessed these gay friends. I would rather use my time to talk to people who are on the fence than with people who have not only chosen a side of the fence to be on but have also chained themselves to the ground. I’ll speak up when people make stupid comments, but I will not go into it much further when it becomes more of a who can talk longer competition.

It would be the same if someone talked with me about why gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry. Might as well tell them to not waste their breath.

Also, I’ve never like it when people talk about how gay people should just stuff it and just not be gay in public and just keep it in the bedroom. Why do we HAVE to know what their sexuality is anyways?

I just chalk it up to simple PDAs. Sexuality is not confined to the bedroom. Gay people can get jeered at and yelled at just for holding hands in public with their partner, heaven forbid. Yet straight people can hold hands no problem. People do not just show their sexuality in how they have sex behind closed doors, they show it in hugs and kisses on the cheek and heads on the shoulder. Simple things that I think everyone takes for granted. If one day someone told me that doing something like holding my boyfriend’s hand in the store was a crime, I don’t know how I could handle it. So when people think about it strictly in terms of bedroom behavior and fair to see such a larger picture of how people act out their sexual preferences in small subtle ways in public I just wanna smack ‘em upside the head ’cause they obviously need some more sense.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 11:33 am ¶
DB wrote:

I love this whole article. I wish I could memorize it and recite it when I encounter homophobic Black people.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 11:38 am ¶
Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

It makes me mad when people say that Gay/Queer folks “choose” to be gay. as Judy Shepard (the mother of Matthew Shepard, who was tortured and murdered for being gay) said, WHY in the hell would anyone choose to be gay and face a lifetime of hardship, discrimination and ignorance?!?!

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 12:02 pm ¶
Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

I’d also like to add another point to the article. You forgot to mention that homophobia can even affect heterosexual people– especially MALES.

Straight males are also expected to conform to heteronormative standards of being a MAN. If a man doesn’t want to play sports and he prefers theatre, art, fashion, literature etc… many people assumes he’s a “faggot” and will assault him.

I have known many straight heterosexual males who have suffered homophobic attacks through-out high school because they don’t seem “heterosexual” (whatever that means) and because they don’t like sports, beer, porn, or whatever.

To this day, my hetero male friends get upset when they encounter homophobes who make cruel remarks, because they know just how much it hurts.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 12:06 pm ¶
Antihero wrote:

I find it incredibly troubling that more Black people (and, by extension, many other POC) cannot grasp the very simple indicators that this is the very definition of discrimination.

At the expense of sounding cynical and thoroughly dismissive, I feel as though when I have to endure the “but…” conversational stopping block in regards to gay rights that I may as well be talking to inanimate objects and treat the speaker as such.

The fact of the matter is that, while not *precisely* the same as the Civil Rights struggles of the past, they are still struggles nonetheless. It doesn’t have to be exact. The reality of the situation is that it is blatantly discriminatory and, to me, no different than implying that Black people are intellectually inferior.

I am exasperated with talking to otherwise sane, rational adults who come with this cognitively dissonant bullshit around what should be crystal clear even to school children.

Sorry, but it’s frustrating.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 12:41 pm ¶
Seattle Slim wrote:

Good points. I just don’t agree with all of number two.

Maybe it’s the book I’m reading, in which a slave girl has seen her two parents murdered trying to save her, a man’s daughter grabbed and killed by an animal on a trek to the slave ship, her father’s suicide because of the grief, her rape by her master after which he calls her an “African wh0re”, and the loss of all of her children ripped from her breast by slavery, aye the death of dozens of children and babies on the way over…but I personally am not inclined to compare sexuality, straight or gay, to race.

I also don’t agree (will do more research on my own just to learn more about this) with the theory that race is a social construct and nothing more. It’s so much more than that.

Who somebody chooses to have sex with is their business. Everyone is entitled to rights, everyone needs to respect each other.

I was not for gay marriage up until recently when I saw a commercial for Ref. 71 that broke my heart. This woman’s partner died in some flooding here in Seattle and the hospital wouldn’t let her see her partner as she was dying. There were other disheartening details I can’t remember. Sure, that may happen to me, but I doubt it. Even if it did, Mr. Slim and I have the ability to get married to remedy that. They did not have that opportunity for whatever reason and that’s not right.

The comparisons didn’t work. It was the reality that another human being, just like me, was not able to grieve and respond the way they wanted to when a loved one was hurt that did it for me.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 1:03 pm ¶
Mammith wrote:

Brilliant article, with only one small point of contention for me.

Point 3, while I do agree mostly, I would make the note that just like the idea of acting ‘black’ is problematic, so is the idea of acting gay. There’s a difference between acting a certain way in order to be palatable to ‘mainstream society’ and just behaving in a way that might confound stereotypes.

I don’t think you were trying to argue anything counter to that, just thought I should bring it up.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 1:09 pm ¶
Seattle Slim wrote:

If I walk outside and decide to kiss a strange woman in the middle of the street I won’t get many strange glares (other than folks saying “Dumi’s a wild cat”) but if I love someone of the same gender and walk arm-in-arm with them down the street I’m likely to get screw faces down the block. As a result, we, heterosexual folks often say stuff like, “I don’t care what you do behind closed doors but I don’t want to see it.” –Dumi

============================
I’ve heard that, but I think more people than not would tell any couple being “over the line” with their PDA to keep it pushing to a local motel or back to the house.

I’m not interested in seeing anyone get hot, heavy and moist in my area of operation. I’m by no means a prude, but time and place. After a certain level it becomes obnoxious and selfish, but that’s neither here nor there lol.

I do agree that it’s wrong and way hypocritical for people to condemn gay couples’ PDA and not a straight couples’.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 1:09 pm ¶
elise.anne. wrote:

@deaf indian muslim anarchist

yes and yes. say on.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 1:24 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:

really great article
and i can appreciate it even more because i think about this issues as a female person of color who also happens to not be straight. i think though, for me (and again, only speaking for myself here), my blackness comes first. i wear it, technically. even lgbt folks always assume i am straight, unless i say something, so as a result of my conforming to gender norms and dressing a certain way, people make assumptions about my sexual orientation, but as my race is right out there, it ends up being my “big” issue in terms of the discrimination i experience. sad, but true.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 1:30 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:

sorry, i meant to add to my comment…

i think that’s why some people end up rejecting other sources of discrimination or oppression and/not understanding the ones beyond race. we focus so heavily on race in this country that sometimes gender, gender identity, sexuality, class, ability, etc get ignored or dismissed.

i really like that you have tried to confront that and make lgbt civil rights a point of discussion for people who may be dealing with other forms of discrimination and overlooking or not understanding the overlapping that goe on.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 1:34 pm ¶
dani wrote:

****”1) “I’m for gay rights but … you can’t compare being Black to being gay.”

I feel you, I understand that being Black is different than being gay, but did you realize even in that statement you’re implying that we don’t have Black gay folk?”****

Really?? Saying that race and sexuality are different is hardly denying one person can be two things i.e. black and gay. If your race is nothing to do with your sexuality- that is your sexuality is irrelevant to your engagement with a group of people who happen to be of african descent- seeing the two separately hardly makes you homophobic.

I can see what you’re are trying to say but I think a stronger argument is that a black person who happens to be gay shouldn’t have to question or temper one aspect of who they are to relate to another. One person can be many things, and relate to different people for different reasons.

For better or worse we do live in world with socially constructed identities. I think denying or trying to change this is superfluous at best and not really the point. Not giving a sh*t who someone chooses to kiss on the lips is.

And passing- you’re a lot more cordial about this than I could ever be. Boy George, when he first emerged as a pop star, was open from the get-go about his sexuality and the abuse he got in the early days was shameful. I completely understand his disdain towards those pop stars who in your words ”passed” and were happy to pose with lots of girls and in some cases joined in the mocking of his sexuality when they too were gay.

@3 what do you say to homophobic white people? Homophobia is homophobia, let’s stop pandering to people excuses of it’s my culture etc etc to explain and tackle it. Who someone chooses to love is none of your business plain and simple.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 2:07 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:

I don’t agree with #2 either because being gay is not a visiible physical feature that is very often obvious and can’t be inherited by offspring. I think sexuality is innate so it is kind of physical feature it’s just not visible without behavior. I don’t think comparing race and sexuality is going to be very productive because of those important and obvious differences and that will probably close more minds than it opens.
Personal beliefs disclaimer: No it’s not a sin, yes for marriage equality

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 2:19 pm ¶
Erika wrote:

Though as with most social issues, there are a lot of overlaps and gray areas — gay Black/other POC folk do most definitely exist, and there are some gay people who might not “pass” as being straight, etc. However, I can understand why some people might be apprehensive about the comparison — you really can’t compare the oppression of a rich, white gay man with that of a poor POC.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 2:57 pm ¶
Digital Coyote wrote:

In my case, most of this list was a conversation ender.

As far as a former friend was concerned, I had no real struggles because she had none as a woman and her mother’s friend never spoke to them about her struggles as a black woman.

Further, she told me that “blacks” decided they were “better” than gays and have taken to calling them the “new N—–s.” I asked where she got that from and she couldn’t give specifics; she was the kind of person that would drown you in documentation if you didn’t agree with her.

I asked what her statement would mean for PoC in the gay community, not just the “old N——s” but anyone else with ethnicity-specific slurs. How could you demand support from PoC, gay or straight, while co-opting their hurts and generally ignoring them–or how using those words makes them feel–because it suits you?

Her answer was that being gay trumped any issues I had because of being “black” since she didn’t get to choose her sexuality and racism was over.

If the aftermath of Prop 8 is any indication, she’s not the only one that feels this way. High profile gay people, like Dan Savage, continue to harp on how it was black people that prevented them from having rights in spite of evidence to the contrary. People were blaming the President for not making folks vote in their favor, like the national election and a state-specific ballot issue were related. All of a sudden, those same people using our civil rights struggle to rally our support were assaulting folks and using slurs, even against those of us that were supporting them.

I will admit this gave me pause. Why should I continue support this if I’m the enemy? I remembered the people it was going to hurt and that bothered me more than the assholes.

Maybe the best way to go about this is to force the dominant population in the gay community to check its privilege. Until they start treating PoC in the gay community like real members and stop assuming that people will support them without having been engaged or asked to, nothing’s going to change.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 3:05 pm ¶
blaqbird wrote:

@celeste:for those who are “religious”, “spiritual”, or what have you, it is considered a sin.

i’ve always had a hard time discussing this w/people because no matter what i say, I’m considered someone who hates homosexuals, which I don’t by the way. So this post might be a bit scattered. Apologies. Yes, I am a Christian, and yes I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, HOWEVER that’s not the end of the discussion like some people believe it to be. As a Christian, I am called to love EVERYONE, not just those that do what I want them to do and believe what I want them to believe. Who am I to think that God loves gay people less because of their sexual preference? I believe Jesus died on the cross for every person on this earth. He did not pick and choose, and Christians aren’t supposed to pick and choose the ones God calls us to love, either. I’m tired of being lumped in w/those who proclaim that gay people will burn in hell. Those are the Christians who obviously have never read their bibles and go spouting at the mouth about things that they’ve heard.

Anyway, I wish I could post more, but my mind is really all over the place right now. Separate from the marriage issue, I hope the violence, fear-mongering, and hatred will stop. It’s unacceptable. Period.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 3:14 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

I’d never heard of Bayard Rustin just like I’d never heard of Richard Aoki. It is amazing the information that is kept from us in order to divide and conquer. I wish there was a way to send a copy of this to MLK’s daughter.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 3:22 pm ¶
Asada wrote:

ppl don’t seem to understand what civil rights actually are….. and its ashame.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 4:26 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:

Thanks Dumi.
I very rarely compare race to sexuality except to say that we shouldn’t put up with discrimination based on either designation.
I don’t like it when white queers generalize about homophobia comparing to racism. As a queer but white person I can’t really claim that say, I’m looked upon as a sexual predator who shouldn’t work with kids or in the public health sector while straight POC get a free pass on that, because that’s something I don’t know. Islamophobes don’t want Muslims teaching their kids either etc. I also know that while queer parents of all colors are reviled, so are so many straight parents of color and straight poor parents.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 4:56 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:

Ahem, Islamophobes don’t want *straight* Muslims teaching their kids either. I don’t mean to render queer Muslims invisible…

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 4:57 pm ¶
cathy wrote:

On the issue of comparison, I think there is a huge difference between comparison as a sort of coalition building or bridge building and oppression olympics. When someone stands up and says that we know damned well that seperate but equal is an oxymoron and trying to apply the exact same sort of twisted logic to gay marriage as was applied to intergrated schooling means you do not support equal rights for gays, you support diminished rights, I think that this sort of comparison can be done positively. We can talk about equality by talking about other movements for equality, so long as we to not diminish them (see Dan Savage for an example of the wrong way).

Also, because two oppressions work differently does not mean that one is ‘better’ than the other. It helps none of us to try to have a competition over whether it is worse to be black, queer, female, disabled, etc. We need to acknowledge that each of these oppression, though they may function in different ways, are oppression and they are damned hurtful. Being unable to go outside without every single person seeing you and thinking in a certain way hurts, so does being expected to live your life in secrecy and be erased unless you constantly announce your status. Being in either a visible oppressed group or an invisible oppressed group carries its own hurts and one of these is not necessarily less than the other. All oppressed groups have unique histories and pains, but pushing another group down to try to raise your status is not the right way to do it (this goes for either side). If we all stay fighting amoungst ourselves, we can’t work together towards liberation.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 5:12 pm ¶
Cindy wrote:

1. It is really not about comparing being black to being gay. It is about comparing the struggle against the discrimination. That’s where the similarities lie. LBGTQ cannot marry, lose custody of the children, lose their jobs, can’t make health decisions for their loved ones, lose housing, are beaten, raped and killed. These are all similar issues that were and in some ways still are faced by by African Americans.
2. & 3. Might I suggest going a day, a week, a month without mentioning your loved one…ever, with having to use genderless pronouns in your everyday interactions. Being LBGTQ is not always a neon sign, but it is also not as invisible as people like to claim. The visibility just comes in other forms. For the vast majority of LBGTQ, being who they are was never a choice. It involves recognition and acceptance, but not choice.
4. Addressed in part above, but this also harkens to the idea that the gay civil rights movement is stealing the black civil rights movement. The truth is that the template was made and using things that worked is just smart strategy. The black civil rights movement was ground breaking and laid the framework for ALL future civil rights battles. I would hope people would be proud of the legacy as being the model instead of angry at the usage.
5. All but one section of the New Testament that mentions homosexuality is a “modern” translation. The original Hebrew text actually uses a word that means prostitution. So much hate has been founded on a deliberate misinterpretation of the original text.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶
Moni wrote:

Being gay is different from being black, as a number of respondents have said. I agree that the discrimination that people who fit into either of those groups can be similar, but there are still distinct differences in the ways those groups are oppressed. I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” (I think that’s what I have heard people call it) but neglecting to engage with those very real differences undermines the ability to have a productive discussion. I think that by exploring common humanity, like Seattle Slim wrote, you can begin to change peoples’ minds…particularly people who might be against gay marriage. I’m a proponent of gay marriage, but the post did nothing for me…I would not use those points as arguments for why blacks should support gay marriage. Civil rights, equality for all people, and the separation of church and state would be more valid arguments, in my opinion.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 6:10 pm ¶
Montclair Mommy wrote:

Love #5! Am I the only one that wants to rear end cars with that bumper sticker? I can just tell them I was so busy rolling my eyes that I didn’t see them stop…

@Seattle Slim–its interesting that you can pinpoint when your mind changed about gay marriage. I can totally remember that moment myself — I was in a political science class and we were discussing Bowers v. Hardwick (court case upholding the illegality of sodomy). As the teacher said what the case was about a LOUD murmur of disgust was heard throughout the entire lecture hall. “GROSS!” “Nasty!” “F–s!” I swear to you before that lecture I would have considered myself against gay marriage and ambivalent (at best) towards gay rights. But there was a girl in my class that was very out and proud and seeing the look on her face when about 75 of her fellow classmates were making nasty and derogatory statements about the gay community…it made me nauseous. I felt so ashamed at the time for not saying anything and for not knowing what to say…and for not realizing the importance of societal/legal support for the LBGT community beforehand. And that was it for me–it really did change how I felt about gay rights. I regret that it took that to make me see the truth but there it is. Because of this I always am willing to “discuss” this issue with people. I think it is one of those issues where people’s opinions CAN be changed. After a particularly long discussion/fight with my parents my dad (religious Catholic and homophobe) agreed that gay couples should be allowed to adopt! I think logic is on the side of the gay rights movement. If people really took the time to think about the facts and reconsider some of their (homophobic and often inaccurate) religious dogma I think most intelligent people would come to the conclusion that equality in marriage (and other rights) is the right thing to do.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 6:14 pm ¶
Montclair Mommy wrote:

As for comparisons between being Black and being LBGTQ…I never go there. I’m white so its not my place.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 6:16 pm ¶
deathblossom wrote:

i think though, for me (and again, only speaking for myself here), my blackness comes first. i wear it, technically. even lgbt folks always assume i am straight…but as my race is right out there, it ends up being my “big” issue in terms of the discrimination i experience. sad, but true.

I agree, however, this flips the moment I leave a primarily LBGT space and move to a primarily black space and part of it is that, honestly, homosexuality can be as visible as race, especially if we live our lives without code-switching -and lying about it forever isn’t that easy, sorry.The moment we admit the true gender of our spouse or are even out in public holding hands with them, what clubs we’re involved in, what we did last night, failure to find the typical hotties hot – it’s out there. And it spreads like wildfire. And honestly, so what if you didn’t know the moment you met me – once you find out or hell, even suspect, the effect is the same. We experience tragedies and atrocities just the same. This being gay is inferior to the pain of being black argument will never fly with me. For me, they both hurt – although I can usually write off racial hurt to that particular’s person idiocy, whereas with my sexuality, I feel more as if I’m being completely devalued as a person. I think it’s mostly because I get it from all races backed up with the irrelevance yet dominance of their religion, so it crushes a lot more. As if no matter where I go, there will never be a reprieve.

@OP
So much props on #4. EVERYBODY draws from the Civil Rights Movement for the dumbest and more irrelevant of things, no need singling us out.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 6:38 pm ¶
MG wrote:

I have a logic problem with the analysis in point 1:
———————————————-
1) “I’m for gay rights but … you can’t compare being Black to being gay.”

I feel you, I understand that being Black is different than being gay, but did you realize even in that statement you’re implying that we don’t have Black gay folk?
————————————-

The statement in no way denies the existence of Black gay folk, but rather argues that the experience of being black and being gay are not really comparable (a whole other issue not really addressed in point 1).

If you argue that some experience of being black and being gay are so dissimilar that comparing the two doesn’t make sense, you are not arguing that there are no Black gay folk, but rather arguing that a person who is both black and gay has little overlap within the experiences of being black and being gay.

NOTE: I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS LINE OF THOUGHT. I just wanted to point out you can’t make the logic leap outlined above.

I actually advocate a modified stance

I do think that the experience of being black (or enter other racial category here) and gay are not always comparable –BUT — I also think that there are social and structural aspects that are very very similar. For instance, as outlined in one of the comments above, there is no U.S. history of slavery within U.S. gayness, and no distinct phenotypical marker of gayness used to separate out the gay from the non-gay (I use non-gay because the parallel in US race relations is the separation of African Americans from the non-African Americans in the racial hierarchy).

Furthermore, yes you are right, as a fellow sociologist I will be the first one to say race is constructed -BUT- (again the but) it is constructed around phynotypical markers and these boundaries in the United States, when it comes to African Americans, have remained resistant to change. Furthermore it has been shown again and again in the sociological literature that historically, constructing an identity which places a group in opposition to native-born blacks is a way to gain social status and to move into the middle class.

The phenotypical marker is a big distinction. Yes there are similarities in experiences of passing, but this speaks to a huge gap between experiences, which your arguments (about this issue) almost minimize. I’ve seen the argument you present have an deleterious effect on potential allies because it downplays the fact that racial/ethnic groups which are phynotypically distinctive (aka those of use visibly another color) wear their marker all the time and there is no passing for those of us with dark skin (though for those of us who are not African American, it can be argued that the African American/non African American gap still exists).

I also think that being Black gay folk would lead to an experience distinct from both being gay and being black. Certainly aspects of the experience of being black gay folk would overlap with experiences of blackness and of gayness. Again, I think many of these arguments downplay the importance of race in America.

I think the key here is to argue that the experiences, while distinct, have many things in common (including discrimination, prejudice, and the altering of behavior in order to fit social norms [thus the denial of self]) and to argue that the civil rights movement is an expansive and ongoing project which can and should incorporate all sorts of identities and issues (disability rights anyone) as it contains social goals of equality and incorporation.

sorry if this is not a smooth argument, I’m still thinking why I endorse modifications of the OP’s arguments and why I think sometimes being Black and being gay are not always comparable.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 8:17 pm ¶
Orchid wrote:

Ok, I think it is problematic to expect people of color to automatically identify with marginalized groups outside of race just because they are people of color. It denies the fact that yes, people of color are individuals and they are more than just their race. being black is NOT automatically going to make you understand what it means to be gay and make you fight for gay rights. There are other factors at work just like any other group.
I understand every single point you made up there, however (I will not use but lol) I think there is a bit of finger wagging and condescension towards black people going on that is not helpful. I can understand the need for equal rights without seeing the issue from a place that is not firmly attached to civil rights. For me it is not necessary for me to look at my skin color and remember being colonized by the British and the Portuguese to realize all people are equal. Otherwise i would not be frustrated trying to explain why equal rights for ALL makes sense to my mom and some of her friends. They aren’t just going to get it because they are Black Americans. I think some in the gay marriage/ equal rights movement often thought they would not have to work that hard with marginalized groups because they would just “get it”. it is going to require work like it is going to for everyone else in this country. Maybe the conversation on equal rights should be approached in a way that is more than just “you should know better”. People are that disappointing, no matter what their history.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 8:19 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“I’ve heard that, but I think more people than not would tell any couple being “over the line” with their PDA to keep it pushing to a local motel or back to the house.”

People may indeed frown upon both, but often times, “the line” moves based on the gender of the couple it’s like a straight to gay exchange rate… walking hand in hand becomes the equivalent of heavy petting, and a kiss becomes downright pornographic – you’ll never see concerned parents making the “How will I explain this to my children?” argument about public hetero pecks. Also, sometimes “shoving your lifestyle in someone’s face” can mean telling a story about your vacation and having the nerve to refer to your S.O. who accompanied you in less than excruciatingly vague terms.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 9:12 pm ¶
Donald wrote:

@deaf indian muslim anarchist
Dead right. It is being seen as gay, or just effiminate, rather than being gay that leaves you open to abuse. I experienced that at school forty years ago before I even knew about homosexuality. While it is behaviour and so theoretically modifiable it is deeply rooted behaviour patterns which are closely related to personality. So not much easier changed than skin colour even if one wishes to.

@ Seattle Slim
For most of history slavery could happen to anyone, it wasn’t restricted to one race. It is peculiar to the US that slavery is racialised the way it has been. Nor is the history of homosexuality free from legal atrocities, right into the 20th Century.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 9:39 pm ¶
Ike wrote:

This is probably off-topic, but I once went to an LGBTQ rally and saw someone holding a sign that said “Gay is the new black.” It really bothered me. It is really people like that who are stopping collaboration between gay communities and communities of color and making gay POC feel caught in the middle.

Posted 12 Nov 2009 at 11:39 pm ¶
KC wrote:

White queer here, and I have to admit I get pretty uncomfortable sometimes at seeing the gay rights movement compare race with sexuality. As someone mentioned above, it can be done in a positive way. But the movement, at least as it’s presented in mainstream media, doesn’t seem all that concerned with the POC in its own community. Also, in my experience the comparison allows gay rights opponents to get up on their high horse about “real” oppression and derails the conversation. I think there’s a difference between comparing the gay experience with the Black experience and comparing the civil rights movements. The former is kind of silly because obviously there are tons of differences and gay people as a group have never experienced the kind of systematic oppression that Black people have. But the latter is more straightforward. People deserve equal rights. Period.

And I do think the article’s point about Black and gay not being mutually exclusive is an important one because people who are both I think tend to get erased from the argument. I remember the white, hetero news machine making a big deal about the Black vote for Prop 8 without ever acknowledging the QPOC even exist.

@Seattle Slim regarding PDA:
I’m not big on watching strangers’ PDA either, but the standard of what is and is not appropriate is SO not the same for gay couples. As a woman simply holding hands with another woman in public I get basically two reactions. There’s the “average person reaction” which falls somewhere on the continuum from embarrassment to disgust. And there’s the “horny straight guy” reaction which assumes that publicly acknowledge my affection for a girl is an invitation for him to ask for a threesome. Repeatedly. And not take no for an answer.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 12:52 am ¶
Lee Bauer wrote:

I would like to say as a young lesbian fighting for equality and pretty much the right to marry my partner… thank you. I appreciate what you are doing. It truly saddens me when I realize just how little GLBTIQs are represented in history and society as well. I’m very involved in the community and am thus attacked, often called a “dyke”, “fascist” (there’s some ignorance for you!), “communist”, “liberal”, “pervert”, “fag”, ect. Most of the times these comments are made by people who identify themselves as Christians. However, as I had learned from a Religious Major professor, that the Leviticus quote that’s most often used against homosexuality truly isn’t even TALKING about homosexuality but rather rape. Rape, as I’m sure you know is not about sexual orientation at all but rather dominance and power.

Back when the bible was supposedly written, soldiers would rape the villagers of the towns they had defeated. Also, the bible refers to Men as boys over the age of 16 who are of higher rank (not a slave, servant, poor, ect.). So basically what “Man shall not lie with man as he does woman” is really talking about in context is that it’s an abomination for a man to rape another man of higher or equal ranking because it is seen as symbolic castration thus taking away his manly-hood and making the victim of rape property just as women were viewed as. It’s truly one of the most taken out of context verses out there, and in any case Leviticus was only supposed to be followed by priests and Men. It also really shouldn’t be even quoted unless they wish to be seen as hypocrite as you rant about it in multifibered clothing and a nice haircut and clean shave (all of which are against Leviticus laws).

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 12:54 am ¶
Duni wrote:

I am Duni not Dumi so don’t get us mixed up!

This is a fantastic little conversation starter. I would love to hear more about marriage that predated, or occured beside christian marriage. I personally don’t believe it and I am a christ follower so I get this question a lot when people find out and wonder why I do not hate gay people and gay marriage.

It is just not the message Jesus taught, which is one of love, and forgiveness, etc.

Thanks for the article,
Duni

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 1:08 am ¶
m. wrote:

Thank you for this post. It really does work as a primer/discussion starter.

It’s time straight POCs wake the F up and realize ‘gay rights’ are not all about marriage or the HRC, gay men (of any race) and white lesbians (specifically), exclusively. There are queer people who are of color, female, bisexual, two or more of the above.
People of color who “tolerate” their LGBTQ ‘brethren’ (for lack of a better word) at the most ought to start practicing acceptance instead of sitting around preaching tolerance. Because this “tolerance” thing is some bullshit for real. If anything, QPOCs have done the tolerating putting up with the combo-platter racism/homophobia that wasn’t ordered!
There’s so much talk about how sexuality and race aren’t the same thing (yes, yes; as the author stated, most people understand this – very ‘Anti-Racism For Preschoolers 101′…or, you know, “common sense”), but straight POCs are still not having the hard talk about how they treat queer members of their communities: many of them dish out as much homophobia as white people dish out racism. But unlike straight POCs, QPOCs are stuck ~~navigating a world filled with BOTH~~ dealing with everyone’s projections and prejudices. Imagine how old it must get when neither your race NOR your sexuality match ‘the default’, as decided by those more privileged.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 1:26 am ¶
Westerly wrote:

Excellent post Don Coyote, especially regarding the violent erasure that is visited upon black people whenever oppressed groups decide to melodramatically describe themselves as the ‘new black’ or the ‘niggers’ of [insert location], thus shoving actual black people out of the framework entirely. If black identity is just a descriptive “metaphor” that can be picked up and put down by various groups…

As for actual black people (say black women, gay blacks) who are also members of these groups that insist on describing themselves as the ‘new blacks’/'niggers’… how do they get define their identity or describe any experiences that arise from being black) when their blackness is no longer a reality to be taken seriously but a ’slogan’.

After all if ‘black is not a lived reality but just a shorthand to refer to somebody else’s struggles…. Then what happens to black people?

Furthermore, what black gay, lesbian, bi, or transgender person is going to describe themselves as the ‘new black’? What on earth could it mean and how could it be useful?

Seriously, there has *got* to be a way of being able to talk about various opressions openly and honestly without ‘black’ being a convenient shorthand for ‘oppressed’.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 2:01 am ¶
m. wrote:

By the way, “gay people had no choice”-type thought is actually really creepy and annoying. I bring this up because this is a recurring statement/argument that is also on this post. There is anguish over the discrimination queer people face, and then there is just straight up anguish over queer peoples’ EXISTENCE. There is a good chance it is the reason why people think it’s okay to perform social or medical “experiments” to prove that a person’s sexuality cannot be changed or is decided in the womb. I am sick of hearing about how I was “born this way” as if not being heterosexual is some sort of defect. Plus, who cares? I’m “this way” right now, and a grown woman.
Seriously, just leave it. Does it really matter that much whether or not queer people have as much a choice in sexuality as we all do in our race? Have people become so hardened the only way they can empathize with an oppressed group is to place them in the ‘Born That Way’/'Can’t Control It’ category? Whether or not someone has a choice in who they love, they still do not choose oppression. (Please note that I am not arguing whether or not we can control our sexuality, but why I think it should not matter. Also, this is not about some oppressions trumping others: this is about not being oppressive to people. Quit it, straight people of any race. Your asses show when you do this.)
And no disrespect to any queer people that have, but I’ve never sat around thinking or used the argument that “I don’t have a choice”. Why? Because straight people don’t have to, and they should be the ones who stop meddling in our lives and start saying/thinking, “Nature, nurture; it doesn’t matter – let’s just not be jerks!” (And I realize they don’t, always. Sometimes it is in your best interest to “explain things” to them with “can’t help it” reasoning. I know I’ve had to.)

Otherwise, I guess there are those individuals just trying to rationalize the tragedy of women in relationships with other women. But if being condescending makes it easier for them to resist beating people up in alleys, fine.

(I apologize if this is tl;dr.)

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 5:50 am ¶
anon wrote:

You are not going to win Black people over with those arguments. *sigh* I actually had a lengthy discussion about this with my cousin after the fallout of Prop 8. I think one of the barriers is perception. Most(Black) people I talk to tell me that the term gay, conjures up the image of white men and women who are gay. Even though they understand that Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and so on can, and do have a gay population, this is their automatic image. I feel that if the LGBT community had “marketed” their cause with POC , the turnout would have been a completely different . How about if they had “marketed” at all?

Orchid wrote:I think some in the gay marriage/ equal rights movement often thought they would not have to work that hard with marginalized groups because they would just “get it”.

EXACTLY!!! This snobbish, dismissive stench, of just expecting Black, and other POC to fall in line is not going to work. Since when do we have to “get it”? There sould be no “shame on you POC” memes going around because that will lose you more support, oh and the “Gay is the new Black” signs DO NOT help, as Ike pointed out. Why is it called “oppression Olympics” if some obvious differences between being Black or POC, and being gay are highlighted? That sounds disturbingly similar to “don’t throw that race card”.

My brother is gay, my younger sister is a lesbian. My other sister is bisexual, my cousin is gay, my aunt is a lesbian, and my uncle is gay. The one thing they have in common is that they are my fam, they are Black, and they are gay/bi/lesbian. I speak frequently to all, and discuss this stuff with all but my aunt and uncle. My brother says he will not participate or be a part of the “greater” LGBT community because at the end of the day his race played a part in him being dismissed, condescended, and generally ignored. Now he will only seek out groups specifically tailored to POC/LGBT needs.
I asked my sister why she didn’t consider herself part of the LGBT community, and she said,”That’s for white folks.” So again, perception.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 6:14 am ¶
Katie wrote:

THANK YOU, m.!

I really hate the “gay people are born that way” explanation. There is no reason that should matter – even if people decided to be queer on their 21st birthday, it still wouldn’t justify denying them legal rights. And it also weirdly characterizes queerness as a disability for which queers should be pitied, which is both ableist AND homophobic.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 12:09 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

In my opinion, an important distinction among different types of oppressions– the role of family and community. For many who are disabled or queer, they did not inherit these characteristics from their parents, so there is often an absence of built-in familial and community support that people typically have regarding ethnicity, race, and religion if they live around others like themselves. To me, that makes the search for community that much more important because it’s not automatic or built in. People have to put extra effort into finding friends, mentors and role models who share their characteristics. Unfortunately, some queer youth are taken advantage of by predators in their search for role models. It is important for people to have safe spaces to form communities that also acknowledge their similarities and differences among each other.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 12:55 pm ¶
9jah wrote:

co-sign MG @ 28. We need to be fully cognizant (particularly PoC) of the intersectionality in being gay, black. People who are sensitive to how one’s sub group can be rendered invisible in a larger group should factor this population first and foremost into the discussion.

I think at the root of the issue in point #1 is that the face of the gay community in popular media is decidedly white and male. I think it is jarring for many straight black folks when these people who themselves have not come to grips with their privilege and/or achieved a true understanding of the black racial experience in this country purport to speak about that experience with authority. These people will often say something that clearly illustrates a lack of understanding about the black racial experience. Also this segment’s disengagement with gay blacks/PoC and their issues resonates as a racial distinction, making race seem (at least to straight folks) as the ultimate divider.

As many have mentioned, the way comparisons are framed is also key – I am always wary of statements like “if this were black/jewish/etc. people, this wouldn’t be happening” because (even if unintentional) it could suggest that a particular group receives preferential treatment at the expense of other marginalized groups. (white) Gay- (straight) black comparisons often come across this way.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 1:33 pm ¶
piile wrote:

this was excellent, thank you!!

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 2:13 pm ¶
deathblossom wrote:

m:
People of color who “tolerate” their LGBTQ ‘brethren’ (for lack of a better word) at the most ought to start practicing acceptance instead of sitting around preaching tolerance. Because this “tolerance” thing is some bullshit for real….but straight POCs are still not having the hard talk about how they treat queer members of their communities: many of them dish out as much homophobia as white people dish out racism. But unlike straight POCs, QPOCs are stuck navigating a world filled with BOTH dealing with everyone’s projections and prejudices. Imagine how old it must get when neither your race NOR your sexuality match ‘the default’, as decided by those more privileged.

This is it. Exactly it. It’s so evident… I feel like whenever this subject comes up, we primarily end up hearing from straight black people about how scapegoated and victimized they feel by the white gay community when honestly…it’s not about them. It’s really about how they’re treating gay people within their OWN community, when they don’t have the “they hate me” defense to fall back on and I think that’s what this article alludes to. But it’s not even talked about because the arguments automatically go into either how abused straight black people are by (white) LBGT people, who are even dismissive to their black gay breathen – refusing to accept any responsibility for their own oppressive behaviors.

I’m sorry that you saw a sign that said “Gay is the new black” and it rightly offended you (as a black queer person, it offended me too as it was extremely indicative of white privileged thought and I went to numerous discussions in the LBGT community about it) and now you have extrapolated this to all (white) gays and you now can’t deal with them, but it’s honestly no different than the indignation you felt because 70% of 225 black people in some random poll in some random part of California voting no on Prop8 meant that (straight) black people nationwide hate gay people.

Also, tolerance, don’t even. Yes, “tolerating” me despite my “shortcoming” is not the same as accepting – people aren’t stupid, we can tell when we’re being pandered to and I can’t think of one person who likes those who do it.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 2:56 pm ¶
deathblossom wrote:

Sorry, that should be “yes” on Prop8 there.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 2:59 pm ¶
Andrea R. wrote:

Thank you! I feel very strongly about this issue, as do most of my friends, but I do have the few that don’t, but I’d like to discuss this in a respectful way for both parties.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 3:26 pm ¶
KC wrote:

“Also, tolerance, don’t even. Yes, “tolerating” me despite my “shortcoming” is not the same as accepting – people aren’t stupid, we can tell when we’re being pandered to and I can’t think of one person who likes those who do it. ”

This right here. I mean, I’ll take tolerance over a punch to the face, but when did “tolerating” someone become a goal as to how we should treat each other as human beings?

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 4:20 pm ¶
Montclair Mommy wrote:

@Digital Coyote in comment # 16: Although I am not a POC, I can totally relate to you statement about supporting something when it seems like the LBGTQ community sees you as the enemy. I felt/feel like that too whenever I see op eds or other commentary about how “Black people hate gay people” and “Obama is worse for the gay community than Cheney.” It makes me so so angry. I’m just like, REALLY? Really? You’d rather have someone in office that would support a constitutional ban on marriage than someone who wants to repeal DOMA and Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell? You’d rather someone in office be a public homophobe than a supporter of civil unions but not marriage? Really? Come on now! I consider myself a full-fledged supporter of gay rights–I was in Equality Virginia I am Garden State Equality now…but when I read these op eds it makes me feel like letting go of the cause because I am so irritated at how the author has unfairly denigrated communities of color (namely, it seems, Black people). I just try to tell myself that some of the LBGTQ community is angry and lashing out and that is understandable. I tell myself that the author doesn’t speak for the entire LBGTQ community and I remind myself that equality for all families is what is morally RIGHT. But, I must admit that those sorts of articles make me really angry. It makes me feel like I’m being forced to choose between supporting the Black community and supporting the LBGTQ community–and if I have to choose, that choice is VERY clear to me! But that sort of divisiveness is just what the religious rights groups want! It makes me wonder if they pay people to write op eds like that just to divide and conquer….

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 6:28 pm ¶
Maggie Jo wrote:

Thanks for this. While I am a white queer I find my self saying “we” more are more. Its REALLY important that Queers of Color are recognized and accepted by BOTH communities. I hope that you’ll keep fighting this notion. We need to be together on this.

Posted 13 Nov 2009 at 8:57 pm ¶
Adrienne wrote:

Digital Coyote brings up EXCELLENT points. I was disgusted when the results of the Proposition 8 vote was blamed on Blacks by the gay community. In the state of California, the majority of votes for Prop 8 was by White voters. Yet, Black voters (and Barack Obama) got the blame. There wasn’t enough of us to vote No on Prop 8 and make it stick.

This but an example of the ways that White privilege is ignored in the gay community that downright piss me off.

My sister and myself identify as bisexual and are Black women. We have always supported gay rights even from within the Black community we grew up being a part of. Our awareness of gay rights happened around teens. And frankly I think the homophobia that exists in Black communities are no different than the homophobia that exists in White communities, Mexican communities, et cetera, yet the “Black people are so homophobic” meme is tired.

Also wanted to say that a number of people I have known who argued against gay rights, and a number who resented gay people comparing gay rights to the civil rights movement, a number who used the argument Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve are now out of the closet as gay or were outed for having an affair with someone of the same gender.

And no, not all spiritual and religions are against homosexuality. Its just that some Christians are very vocal about their homophobia. I can see how that can create an illusion that homosexuality goes against God and religious tenents.

The voices of those who support gay rights and gay people sometimes gets twisted or drowned out. I get that part.

Posted 14 Nov 2009 at 9:45 am ¶
Orville wrote:

I don’t agree with the article as a black gay man the author of this piece is obviously straight.

Are the editors of this blog so cheap they can’t even hire a black gay person to write about black LGBT issues?

So once again black gay and lesbians are silenced and a heterosexual person is writing about a community they obviously don’t know a lot about.

It is very annoying to read a piece about the black LBGT community written by a straight person.

I wrote an article for the Guardian this year discussing this issue of course from a different perspective.

As a gay black man I negotiate between the racist white gay community and yes the homophobia of some straight black folks.

However, I can honestly say the mainstream LGBT community is NOT my community that’s for sure.

There is a lot of racism in the mainstream LGBT community and the author of this piece doesn’t discuss it enough.

The author of this piece ignores the fact that due to white supremacy may gay and straight black people question the motivations of the so called gay elite such as GLAAD.

The author of this article automatically makes the assumption that all gay black people support gay marriage and that’s false!

Some of the white gay elites bash President Obama any second they get they suddenly feel black people “owe” them something. What the hell have the gay elites ever done for black folks?
Why should gay or straight black Americans support gay marriage rights?

The author of this piece does not realize for some black people gay and straight gay marriage is NOT on the radar. Black people encounter racism in the workforce, employment discrimination, housing discrimination and many other areas.
Black people are fighting for survival.

The author of this piece also makes the assumption black gay people we automatically support the white gay community’s fight for gay marriage.

I am black and gay. I believe the editors of this blog really made a huge mistake having a heterosexual person writing this article.

Are the editors of this blog so cheap they can’t even get a black gay or lesbian writer to write the piece someone that actually has the life experience of being “black” and “gay”?

Once again black gay and lesbian activists are silenced and our voices DISPLACED and SILENCED. Once again the racist message is presented in this piece that to be

black = heterosexual and to be gay = white.

I feel I have more of a connection to the black community and the reason why is RACE ALWAYS MATTERS.

The author of this article ignores the incredible racism black LGBT people experienced in America after prop 8 getting called the N word by their so called white gay brothers and sisters.

The OP ignores the fact the white gay media is also very RACIST and ANTI BLACK.
And I know because I have read the American gay media publications such as Advocate & Out Magazine that advance a white racist gay agenda excluding gay people of colour.

I do not feel as though I am a part of the LGBT community because I am not white or rich.

The author of this piece doesn’t discuss the fact within the so called gay community the people with the power in the LGBT activist groups are white.

Of course some African Americans are NOT going to support gay rights when all they see is WHITENESS they do not SEE BLACKNESS.

The people on CNN, in the NY and LA Times complaining about gay marriage in America trying to link it to the black civil rights struggle are WHITE NOT BLACK.
Why doesn’t the author of this piece criticize the power structure the media that continues to present the image that gay issues are white issues.

The author of this piece ignores the fact white gay people have WHITE SKIN PRIVILEGE and they ONLY want the support of black people to advance their AGENDA.

I believe the author of this piece is ignoring the fact that the so called “gay community” is white male dominated and racist. All you have to do is read the racist white gay media such as Queerty, Out & Advocate, Perezhilton, Towelroad say about black people black people. I wrote a piece for the Guardian this year arguing that if the white gay community wants equality in America they have to deal with the problems within the gay community.

It’s a bit annoying for me personally to listen to racist white gay activists such as Dan Savage “lecture” black people when the problems for gay equality is within the sphere of the white community. It is white people that have the social and political power in the United States NOT black Americans. It is white people that created the anti gay laws in America NOT black folks.

Posted 14 Nov 2009 at 9:44 pm ¶
alex wrote:

sorry, i couldn’t read the whole comment thread before writing this, and i’m sure others have had the same comment, but…

being queer can sure as hell be a choice! i consider myself queer by choice. so there.

i find this essay/article/post strikingly lacking in radical queer analysis or at least some post-structuralist queer theory flava

other than that, big fan of the blog!

Posted 14 Nov 2009 at 10:10 pm ¶
Lauren wrote:

Great post, great discussion. Though I’m late to throw in my 2 cents, I just wanted to respectfully challenge the phrase “fall on deaf ears” in the first sentence of the post. As we talk about the intersectionality of oppressions and communities, let’s include people with disabilities in these discourses and seek to challenge ableist language.

Posted 15 Nov 2009 at 9:47 pm ¶
bluemorpho wrote:

I *think* this is a point that hasn’t been explicitly made in the previous comments, but forgive me if I’m echoing.

I don’t think comparing gay rights to the civil rights movement is precisely the problem. I think it’s *who* is making the comparison. When an overwhelmingly white gay rights organization like the HRC invokes the analogy, that’s when it becomes hurtful and inappropriate.

Saying “gay is the new black” does assume that gay people are not black people, and that people who are fighting for gay rights are not the same people as those fighting for civil rights denied or limited because of racism. And by invoking the analogy, white gay activists blithely lay claim to a whole mess of pain and injustice without being obligated to understand either the history or ongoing experience of people of color (including queer people of color).

Posted 15 Nov 2009 at 10:24 pm ¶
Jackie wrote:

Lovin this blog, as usual. Rock on.

Posted 16 Nov 2009 at 1:21 pm ¶
PeriodistaLoupe wrote:

@ Seattle Slim
I totally agree with you and I have read that novel The Book of Slaves!! I love that book and yes I think that even though race and sexuality are completely different I now know that discrimination against each group is the same so thus black people and gay people have the same struggle. I am Christian however I believe just as how it is said in the bible that God give people free will and we shouldn’t judge each other so if I may not agree with the gay life style for myself as an individual that does not mean I wouldn’t support any of my friends who are gay or who were being discriminated against. It’s wrong to tell someone how to live there life and gay people are also people of color too so they may be treated even worse since in the black community Church is and belief is seen as mandatory especially if you life in the southern parts of the States. I’m Canadian so my experience has been different but even some of my relatives have made homophobic comments since they come from the Caribbean. It especially troubles me when my cousin who’s two years older than me a young man in his early twenties feels so uncomfortable and appalled when he heard allegations that a lot of rappers are gay but in the closet. It’s the whole macho afrocanadian act that he has to keep up sometimes it’s similar to how african american men “cannot” be gay!! Or being on the downlow is even worse. I’m thinks that’s ridiculous because the majority of men who are in the fashion or beauty industry in Atlanta are gay and accepted by the women in the black community. Actually alot of gay black men don’t fit into that stereotype either they may not be flamboyant and most people might think their straight until you get to know them. I think it just makes them feel more comfortable and accepted more if they adopt the flamboyant facade. Not to say that some people are not naturally flamboyant because some people are and there’s nothing wrong with that everyone should be themselves and not be afraid to hide their personality for fear of being insulted.
Finally, I just think what MLK’s daughter said was so unnecessary even if she’s Christian. I feel some African American Christian try to alienate people who don’t agree with their beliefs. She didn’t want her father’s legacy to be “stained” by the association with gay rights. Wow so pathetic and rude!!! She’s only creating more division between the people of color who are heterosexual and religious vs. those who homosexual or who are not religious and/or support gay rights.

@ Orville you need to calm down a bit not every blog has a gay black expert!! Dumi was just trying to give his perspective on the issue and yes we know not all gay people support gay marriage and that there is discrimination between white gay mainstream and people of color in the LGBT community. There’s discrimination in every community because people are ignorant and don’t have compassion for people who are struggling with finding themselves and learning about their sexuality. People lump gay people all together which is a mistake yes on Dumi’s part but it wasn’t an intentional attack. It’s okay to give constructive criticism on his article and advice about how to write about the LGBT community from a heterosexual perspective. But it’s impolite to go on a Super heated rant attacking him Gosh. The main point of his article is that all gay people and people of color share the experience of discrimination from each other as well as people outside of their community. If Dumi was writing an in depth piece on this issue then maybe he would go into all the many facets of white privilege being a factor. It’s like when other black people say how white people or gay people could never understand the plight we faced and how much we struggled their all evil because they discriminate us or use their white privilege to better them selves. So untrue because not all white people who are privilege have lack of compassion or are racist!!! This article isn’t really about racism or homophobia it’s talking about the lack of unity between people of color as a whole and the gay people who also suffer discrimination. Your points were valid so maybe you should right a response article and send it to New Demographic instead of getting so defensive. Try to educate the writer’s and the readers of this blog.

Posted 16 Nov 2009 at 1:33 pm ¶
PeriodistaLoupe wrote:

@blaqbird
I agree with you whole heartedly I feel the same way as Christians we have to love others and not judge them everyone has a choice to do what they want and Jesus loves us all regardless of our flaws. Besides i would not someone to tell me how to live my life. We as Christians get lumped in the same category as well and out discriminated against too. People assume we all hate or have a problem with gay people. No! There’s a difference between people who are religious and those who have a relationship with god. You can be gay and have a relationship with god just like you can be anyone and have a relationship. He’s not going to ignore you because your gay!!!LOL He still loves you because your his child and he died so that you can live a purpose driven life. If some people don’t agree with Christianity that’s fine because I don’t the church and the state should be together at all. Not everyone is the country is Christian and not everyone is an Atheist so people need to realize that. In Canada are government is Conservative but gay people still have the right to get married all over the country and to seek asylum in our Country because of discrimination they might face in their own countries. Canada’s definitely not perfect utopia though because people or color face racism just not blatant. The LGBT community face more blatant attacks I think because people know racism is bad and their be held accountable for being prejudice towards someone’s ethnicity but there is not the same fear when it comes to calling some one a gay slur or making homophobic comments. I mean I remember when I was in middle school and kids called each other the f word because a they had a close relationship with friends of the same gender?? And those young boys who commited suicide this past years because their classmates called them gay and harassed them for being sensitive!! WTF is wrong with people?? Teaching their kids those things? The church should also play a role by encouraging it’s members to not discriminate against gay people because Jesus loves everyone and he can only judge them but instead they don’t.
Great article Dumi!!

Posted 16 Nov 2009 at 1:59 pm ¶
Wendi Muse wrote:

orville,

i think it’s also a pretty big assumption you’re making that none of the writers on this blog writing about their experiences in the racial trenches are non-hetero…

but anyway….

i think the article is good because it’s a stepping stone to a bigger conversation with some people, PARTICULARLY because the writer himself may not identify as queer. sure, allies of many different “fights” have a lot to learn, but i think trying is the first step!

Posted 16 Nov 2009 at 11:35 pm ¶
Orville wrote:

Gay people are allowed to get married in Canada that doesn`t exactly change my life as a black gay man. The big issue that I deal with on a daily basis is racism and not homophobia. I think people have to be careful with presenting the image that Canada is some utopia paradise when it is not. Canadian racism is not really under the surface it is very real and it exists. The power structure in Canada is still very white male dominated. The Mythical Norm controls Canada.

Posted 17 Nov 2009 at 12:26 am ¶
Jackie wrote:

If I could wish for anything, it would be for marriage not to be seen as the do all, be all and end all in the struggle for GLBTQ equality.

I’ve been out as a lesbian since 1987 and I can remember when we were still fighting city by city, state by state just to have anti-discrimination laws added to the books. At that time, marriage really wasn’t on anyone’s radar screens because you were just trying to keep your job, keep your house and/or apartment and not get kicked out for being gay. As much as people were mourning the loss of gay marriage in Maine, it was more important to me that the people of Kalamazoo, Michigan overwhelmingly passed a non-discrimination ordinance that covered GLBTQ people and that they did it by building coalitions. The fact that was barely a blip on the national radar tells me that things are a bit out of sorts in the community in terms of priority setting.

The fact that marriage has overtaken just about everything else really gets on my nerves, especially when it comes to states like California because under domestic partnership, we actually got a lot of rights that other people in other states (and some countries) did not get and it was all done without it being put up for a vote. And I know there are people who are up in arms and say that domestic partnership was not good enough but I really have to ask: is marriage the only way that anyone who is GLBTQ can be acknowledged by the greater society? What about those in our associated communities who are poly, single, or choose not to be married but are still in a committed relationship? What happened to GLBTQ people leading the way to redefining what relationships could be?

Canadian lesbian author Jane Rule wrote a really good essay about it here: http://www.rbebout.com/getfree/jane.htm.

My friends think it’s funny that I’m so vocal about this considering I’m married. We did it twice: once in church (my last act as a Methodist) and last year before Prop. 8 was in force. The first ceremony meant more to me because it was ours – no imprint by the state. The second was because it made it a little easier to keep some of the insurance benefits in play without a lot of paperwork. But it still makes me twitchy to say the word ‘wife’.

There’s a lot that could and should happen that might smooth the way towards more Black people thinking about gay rights but the biggest one is this: show up.

Show up to demos that have nothing to do with GLBTQ people specifically but have everything to do with communities of color (which PoC GLBTQ folk reside within as well). Show up and ask, “How can I help?” People remember who has their back in a fight. They may not always agree with you but it’s a little hard to turn someone away when you know their face and their story.

Oh yeah, learn to *speak* to the people who don’t agree with you. I remember one of the organizers of the No on 8 campaign basically saying in the aftermath that they really didn’t try to reach out to certain groups because they didn’t want to have to talk to the people who didn’t agree with them. Insert facepalm here.

I just want go through my day able to bring all my selves to the party: Black, lesbian and feminist instead of having to leave pieces at home. Marriage doesn’t do that for me. Having people see me as fully human does.

Posted 17 Nov 2009 at 4:09 am ¶
Dara Njeri wrote:

@ Orville:

Alot of what you’ve written resonated with me, and then there are a few things that I disagree with.

I agree that we need more representation in the blogosphere and the wider media to ensure that our views are documented.

I also agree wholeheartedly that the wider, white, LGBTQ community continues to use the people of colour who identify as gay, when it is convenient to them – and then ignore us as soon as we ask them to address the issue of racism within the Village. We are made visible on posters, flyers, and brochures when the white gay community wants to access funding – “look at how diverse and inclusive we are!” – yet are quickly silencedwhen we ask for concrete steps be taken to ensure the inclusion that they so proudly tout to anyone within earshot.

As a Black lesbian who spent nearly 20 years in Trinidad before returning to Canada, my experiences have really helped to shape my view when it comes to interracting with the various people I meet.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the wider LGBTQ community is NOT my community.

I stll remember to this day, about 10 years ago when I was in Toronto to help out with the Pride celebrations, controversy erupting when gay Black people asked for better representation; access to more central areas of the Pride route ( rather than be pushed off route in some hole in the wall, as the Pride committee had done all the years before). A member of the Pride committee stood up in that meeting and said, quote, “I don’t know what you people are complaining about. It’s not like we’re asking you to sit at the back of the bus.”

But I’d like to add that the wider Black community is also NOT my community, either. The most hateful, homophobic comments I have ever had to deal with, have come from people whose skin colour is just like mine. I’ve found that the wider Black community does not want to acknowledge my cause as being legitimate, does not see the parallels between our joint struggles for liberation – but are only too happy to have me fight for the Black cause.

I need look no further than the horrible situation of LGBTQ people living in the Caribbean – a situation that I experienced first hand – to know that THE WIDER BLACK COMMUNITY IS NO FRIEND OF MINE, EITHER.

A woman I knew spent 2 weeks in hosiptal when she was beaten with a 2 by 4 for having the audacity to walk the road with a masculine appearance.

In Trinidad there have been a rash of beatings of gay men, lured by their attackers who specifically sought to entrap then via logging into gay websites and posing as gay.

Lest we forget Jamaica, where LGBTQ people are being tortured and murdered on a regular basis, for refusing to comply with the oft-stated rule that any sexuality other than hetero must be kept deeply hidden.

I acknowlege and give thanks for my ancestors on a daily basis – the ones who hung from trees, were denied the right to our languages, religion, culture, and basic education. It is because of their sacrifice that I am able to stand here today.

However I have to add that my wider Black community treats its LGBTQ members as non-existant. We simply do not exist in the eyes of the wider Black community. And if we make the mistake of asserting our right to be made visible, we are called everything tatamount to being a “race traitor”. We are asked to choose between our Blackness and our sexuality.

So I returned to Canada, where I hope to find some measure of freedom to be me. But what about those who do not have the option to pack up and move away as I did???

I have attempted to fully participate in the POC LGBTQ community over here, only to run into the very surprising fact that non-Black POC have expressed some of the same dismissive, condescending, heirarchical views towards Black LGBTQ people, as the wider white gay community. I thought, naively, that “we’re all in this together” as People of Colour – but have been made to understand that as a Black person, “my place” is to stand behind everyone else.

The result is, after getting over the hurt feelings caused by being rejected at almost every turn, the circle of people with whom I feel comfortable has gotten extremely small.

“My people”, then, are other Black LGBTQ people, and the few Black heterosexual allies that I have. Because truth be told – there are some straight Black folk that “get it”. I come from a very supportive family. But I also acknowlege that the support that I have is a virtual anomoly, since the majority of my friend have been cast out of their homes for daring to be themselves.

Still, I’m thanksful for those who get it. And will remain, happily, in my little corner of the world, surrounded my the love and support of folks that understand/ relate to/ accept me as I am. I simply choose not to engage with folks who express otherwise.

Life is too short for me to spend it arguing semantics with anyone whose narrowmindedness renders them incapable of wishing for me simply what they would want for themselves.

Posted 17 Nov 2009 at 10:21 am ¶
In2045 wrote:

I am constantly have debates with my family about this issue.

Let’s be logical about #2: A bigot will assume I’m black by my skin color. I am, therefore, judged to be whatever they think I am. I never told the bigot I was gay. I, of course, could never choose to be gay but they have no idea if I’m gay or not. They will discriminate based on my skin color. If I am discriminated against because I’m gay; it is because I have told people I was gay. It seems logical enough to me. This doesn’t diminish the need for gay rights or the need for self-reflection among social conservatives in our country at all. But there is a difference here.

Posted 18 Nov 2009 at 2:24 pm ¶
sandeep wrote:

i don’t have much to add beyond the fact that i think its an awesome article. great job really.

Posted 19 Nov 2009 at 7:43 am ¶

I’m for gay rights, but…

Comments

Post a Comment

« Home

About This Post

Categories

Interact

Subscribe to This Blog

Search

About This Blog