Et tu, Amy Poehler? What’s so funny about desiring a big, black woman?

By Guest Contributor Tami, originally posted at What Tami Said

Fat, black woman. Big, black chick. Those descriptors are lazy comedy shorthand in a racist, sexist and sizist society. Want to bring on the cheap laughs? Then trot out an over-sized, brown-skinned lady. Even better, despite her fatness and blackness, give her a more than healthy opnion of herself. See, that makes it doubly funny, see, cause even though everyone knows neither black women or fat women are hot, this character doesn’t seem to know this and actually behaves as if she is attractive and worthy of amorous attention.

See how it works? I’ve come to expect black women, especially plus-sized ones, to be the butt of the joke in low-brow comedy films–the sort of flicks commonly associated with Eddie Murphy, Rob Scheider or Tyler Perry. But usually your benign, weekday sitcoms eschew hateful comedy. I’ve been watching NBC’s Amy Poehler vehicle “Parks & Recreation” off and on this season. I want to like it. I’m a fan of “The Office” and generally find Poehler charming. Each time I tune in to the show I hope it will be better. But last night, “Parks & Recreation” lost me for good. Because I can’t relax and laugh in the face of the dehumanization of women.

In last night’s episode of “Parks & Recreation,” Leslie Nope (Poehler) and her colleagues at the Pawnee, IN, Parks and Recreation Dept.were visited by officials from their sister city in Venezuela. Introducing herself to the lead official (played by “Saturday Night Live’s” Fred Armisen), Nope expresses that her job is to see her visitor’s “every need.” Of course, the officials take this to mean she will procure women for their sexual pleasure. (Yeah, that one’s never been done before.) One replies, “Do we just select the woman we desire? I will take the large, black one.” To which Nope’s sidekick mumbles, “Interesting choice.” Armisen’s character intones, “Do you have some kind of book with photos of the women that are available to us? If not, I too will take the sexy, black one.” The “large, black one” herself says, in a talk-to-the-camera shot: “I am not surprised at all. I’ve been to South America. I did very well there.” This joke plays through the show and in the end we see the black woman has returned to Venezuela with the officials and is sipping a drink beside a pool in a floral muu-muu thing.

See, the gag was funny because someone–those wacky foreigners–found a large, black woman attractive when there were clearly skinny, white ladies around to choose from. Woooo! Wipes tears from eyes. That’s a knee-slapper! How absurd! I mean to think that anyone would find a fat woman…a fat, BLACK woman sexually attractive. That is the message behind the joke. What else could the message be? If the official had chosen Amy Poehler’s character as the object of lust, would that have solicited an “Interesting choice” comment?

I shouldn’t be surprised by this, but I am. Amy Poehler, along with Tina Fey, has enjoyed third-wave feminist celebrity icon status since the 2008 elections. And, at least on the surface, Poehler is about some sort of “girl power.” She launched the “Smart Girls at the Party” Web series to “help girls find confidence in their own aspirations and talents.” Perhaps this kind of empowerment is only for some girls–ones of the right color and size–because I can’t imagine how seeing themselves portrayed as undesireable might empower young, black girls or girls who are overweight. Always being the butt of the joke rarely inspires confidence.

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  1. Links of Great Interest 10/30/09 | The Hathor Legacy on 30 Oct 2009 at 7:26 am

    [...] Fat black women are comedy shorthand. [...]

Comments

  1. jaimeteaspoon wrote:

    I didn’t see this episode, but there was another in which it is revealed that the black woman voted for David Duke after a campaign call informed her that he would lower taxes. So funny, right? Because he belongs to the KKK? Hilarious. NBC is pretty notorious for poking fun at people of color, so I should be surprised but I’m not.

  2. Eva wrote:

    I’m glad this post is here. Years ago I was at the movies and I saw a trailer for “Enchanted.” There is a scene where Prince Charming stabs a bus and the bus driver, an overweight, dark skinned, natural hair wearing black woman stomps down the aisle and says, “Did you put your sword in my bus?” The prince sheepishly nods and the bus driver flings him over the bus.

    I found that so racist that I wrote to Disney and told them so. This movie is intended for children and what it’s teaching them is overweight, brown skinned black women with natural hair are mean, scary and have physical strength that is beyond that of any human being. And if you don’t think that’s harmful, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

  3. Queen B wrote:

    It is these kinds of images or portrayls of black women of size which is why I will never see a Tyler Perry movie with “Madea” in it. It just offends me so much; the bodies of black women should not be the object of ridicule and comedy. Why is a black man dressed up as an oversized black woman funny; why is that entertainment?

    I have never watched this show on NBC but it would not surprise me if the people who wrote the script are all white. In the eyes of some whites, black skin plus a fat body equal unattractive even more so than an overweight white woman.

  4. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    Thanks for writing this post! I’ve always been bothered by why the media keeps mocking big black women or why it’s considered “hilarious” if a WHITE MAN desires a big black woman (see Napoleaon Dynamite for example).

    Sigh.

    Anyway, I like Amy Poehler, but I’ve heard about her racial insensitivity a few times, when she made xenophobic jokes about East Asians and said “ching chong!” (or something like that).

  5. asturdivant wrote:

    I’m glad I’m not the only one who cringed at this episode.

  6. killervirgo wrote:

    I am going to disagree with the observation regarding the Park and Recreation episode. IMO, the sidekick Tom Haverford only thinks it is an interesting choice because his own standard of beauty differs from those two official from Venezuela. As see on the show, he primarily goes for very attractive, thin, white women. This probably stems from his own issues with race after admitting on a previous episode that he changed his Indian name to a more “American.” Quotes from season 2 ep 2:

    Tom: My birth name is Darwish Zabir Ishmael Ghanni. Then I changed it to Tom Haverford because, you know, brown guys with funny sounding Muslim names don’t make it really far in politics.

    The large, sexy, black woman wasn’t surprised (on the show) because from her own experiences from going to South America she found that she was standard of beauty, and not someone who is skinny and white. She knows she is beautiful, and just because those “wacky foreigners” find her sexy (although they want to objectify her) doesn’t mean that she is not considered beautiful in her own town.

    Is there something I am missing?

    “If the official had chosen Amy Poehler’s character as the object of lust, would that have solicited an “Interesting choice” comment?”

    Yes, because Tom (her sidekick) does consider her attractive because of his own ideals of beauty.

  7. Mary wrote:

    I like Amy Poehler, but I’ve heard about her racial insensitivity a few times, when she made xenophobic jokes about East Asians and said “ching chong!” (or something like that).

    Wow, did she?? I’m not disputing you on this, it just reminds me I think there was also a “ching chong” incident with Amy Sedaris.

  8. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    Ohhh yeah. Maybe that WAS Amy Sedaris, my bad. I get mixed up with the two Amy’s sometimes.

  9. yolanda wrote:

    this is the exact reason why i identify as a womanist and not a feminist–because feminism is historical for promoting what’s good for white women and ignoring the plight of others, period. fetishization of asian women? the womanhood of black women not needing protected? latina who?

    i’m not trying to get all debbie downer here, but black women really DO have it hard. we have to be the most amazing thing in the world to walk by to even get a glance, and if you’ve over 200+ (hell, anything over 150 is pushing it!) don’t even think about it. amy poehler is a feminist, but that doesn’t represent me.

  10. yolanda wrote:

    I am going to disagree with the observation regarding the Park and Recreation episode. IMO, the sidekick Tom Haverford only thinks it is an interesting choice because his own standard of beauty differs from those two official from Venezuela. As see on the show, he primarily goes for very attractive, thin, white women. This probably stems from his own issues with race after admitting on a previous episode that he changed his Indian name to a more “American.” Quotes from season 2 ep 2:

    that would be all and good if there wasn’t a history of black women being the butt of jokes for just being. this issue is more about, “well, see that’s that ONE character’s beauty ideal…” and about why the show’s writers chose to make the episode about the “big black woman” in the first place.

  11. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

    this is the exact reason why i identify as a womanist and not a feminist–because feminism is historical for promoting what’s good for white women and ignoring the plight of others, period. fetishization of asian women? the womanhood of black women not needing protected? latina who?

    i’m not trying to get all debbie downer here, but black women really DO have it hard. we have to be the most amazing thing in the world to walk by to even get a glance, and if you’ve over 200+ (hell, anything over 150 is pushing it!) don’t even think about it. amy poehler is a feminist, but that doesn’t represent me.

    I totally agree. There are many times when I feel like I can’t relate to white feminists at all– especially when they start talking about Islam and Muslim women…

  12. Nicole M wrote:

    I also disagree with the assessment of this reference in that episode. The greater context was that the main character, Leslie, is so ignorant of Venezuela’s culture, history, and society that she thinks she’ll be receiving some dirt poor farmers who will be wowed by the running water in the local motel. Instead she is shown up by a military delegation with better educations, higher standards of living, and an arrogance that even outshines the presumptuous superiority of the US. (Their secret mission i to shame the entire town as a propaganda tool for Hugo Chavez by buying them with a park, as Chavez did by providing free oil to Americans a few years ago — and it nearly works because the oil-financed government has money to burn, a the expense of cronyism and near-totalitarianism).

    The delegation from South America, who is used to all the finer things in life, finds the entire town of Pawnee a horrible backwoods totally lacking culture and beauty, with the notable exception of Donna (and the youngest of the delegation is infatuated with the dismissive slacker April, who is the only person in the dept who speaks Spanish) . I saw it as a dig at the standards of beauty in the US, which are as narrow-minded as its perception of another culture.

    The context for the David Duke episode was that everyone in the office was digging up dirt on each other, and that dirt ended up being ironic for every character: the guy who rubs his wife’s beauty in everyone’s faces turn out to have a green card marriage…and while everyone thinks he’s the immigrant because he’s Indian, it’s his white wife who is Canadian; the guy who epitomizes soulless, ineffectual bureaucracy moonlights as a crooning jazz saxophonist; etc etc. Contextually, the choice to make Donna the same kind of uninformed voter as much of America who does not vote in their best interest “He said he’d lower taxes” *was* hilarious, because it jibes with the same theme of the entire cast being half-assed in all aspects of government.

    THAT SAID, I can totally understand your frustration, Tami, since there are so few black women on television, and that they are mostly supporting roles, and that if they are big black women, they are almost always marginalized as fetishized sex objects, as angry loud women (”Mercedes” on “Glee”) or mother surrogates who have no inner lives of their own (”Carla” on “Mad Men”).

    I don’t think this episode of “Parks and Recreation” would have bothered anyone if there were a the same full range of deep, complex, black female characters on TV as there are white ones. It’s not that Donna was singled out as being sexy only to “wacky foreigners”, it’s that she’s not singled out for any other reason.

  13. Nicole M wrote:

    Sorry, “a the expense of cronyism and near-totalitarianism” should be “due to cronyism and near-totalitarianism”

  14. Mer wrote:

    You’re probably right, and I feel so stupid for not considering it before. I was reading the situation more like killervirgo, in part because I’m a woman of size, in part because I’ve parsed Tom into a category of character with an untrustworthy world view, and in part because I didn’t want to believe the writers were going there. But yeah. They probably were. And if they weren’t, they didn’t do enough to show that they were coming from a different (and more positive) direction.

  15. Alyssa wrote:

    I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand Parks and Recreation points out many of the racial problems in the US. As killervirgo mentioned, Tom says, “brown guys with funny sounding Muslim names don’t make it really far in politics” which is true. Even in this episode, Amy Pohler thinks the Venezuelans are poor and ends up embarrassed when they aren’t- pointing out that Americans don’t understand other cultures and usually thinks lowly of them.
    I tend to read the Venezuelans’ attraction to Donna (the “large black woman”) as showing us that this is an American hang up and she is considered attractive in other cultures.
    However, I don’t think the “wacky foreigners” were a statement about anything. They were trying to bring in a popular SNL character. This becomes problematic, because there is no other way to read it, and it ends up making the Donna is actually attractive scene into only wacky foreigners would like her.
    I don’t think this was the intent of the show (and I know their intent really doesn’t matter). The show seems to fumble around a lot trying to figure out how to balance being mainstream, being a clone of The Office while still being original, being funny, and having a positive message. It often messes up the latter three. I think this episode was them trying to send a message about how we view foreigners but they muddled the message, and ended up making it worse.

  16. ms four wrote:

    In contrast to this, did you all see Sunday’s New York Times Magazine?
    http://www.nytimes.com/pages/magazine/index.html

    I’m interested to see the film Precious and wonder if any of you have.

  17. killervirgo wrote:

    Yolanda, so if Donna (the character in question) was just referred to as sexy, and not mention black and or large … then it would be fine? or is the “interesting choice” comment?

    To me, she wasn’t being made fun of because of her size or race, but she was desired for those qualities. Donna’s interviews illustrated that while in South America, she was appreciated for her attributes.

    If we really want to deal with race in the particular episode, the topic should be why did the visitors from South America assume that Tom Haverford was Leslie Knope’s servant? Because he was a minority work for a white person?

  18. 9jah wrote:

    BORAT also got him a ‘big black woman” and took her to Kazakhstan.

    And of course, all of these women are so desirous of love and bereft of any other attachments or qualities, that immediately after the “meet and greet” they are ready to board a plane to wherever. And since white writers apparently believe that “big black women” are society’s least wanted, its perfectly okay if they can’t find love in their own country. Just outsource their relationship needs to wacky foreigners who know no better.

  19. Nicole M wrote:

    Alyssa: “However, I don’t think the “wacky foreigners” were a statement about anything. They were trying to bring in a popular SNL character. This becomes problematic, because there is no other way to read it, and it ends up making the Donna is actually attractive scene into only wacky foreigners would like her.”

    Ah, I didn’t know that was an existing character from SNL. Hm, yeah, lame. I’m a woman of size, too (though white) and so I’m pretty sensitive to beauty standards, because I used to fit into them when I was younger. Fat = invisible in real life, and fat+white+TV = “asexual/nerdy sidekick” on TV.

    I totally agree about the show’s fumbling. But I still love it for its flashes of occasional brilliance and Amy Poehler’s consistent deadpanned wit.

  20. Tara K. wrote:

    Hmm.

    I saw this, as with most comments about race/sex on the show, as being intended to point out issues. I thought the commentary w/the Venezualans officials was, “They’re objectifying all women, and they’re specifically objectifying/fetishizing large black women most.”

    Having seen third-wave feminism recognize the faults of past feminists and having seen feminism change and grown, I would ask that people allow it its own organic process. I don’t know any feminist worth her salt who would deny the faults of the movement in the past.

  21. Monica wrote:

    Don’t you think the comment about “brown guys with Muslim names” was also meant to show Tom’s cluelessness since that describes our president pretty accurately? (I don’t watch this show.)

  22. killervirgo wrote:

    “Don’t you think the comment about “brown guys with Muslim names” was also meant to show Tom’s cluelessness since that describes our president pretty accurately? (I don’t watch this show.)”

    I made a partial quote there. Amy Poehler character asks him about Barack Obama, and his response was to the effect of if he knew some with a name like Barack Obama could be president then he would have re-thought the name change.

  23. gail wrote:

    @Eva: The “rape” metaphor is horrifying as well…”Did you put your sword (penis) in my bus (butt)?” And the “sheepish” nod, followed by her attack/punishment, makes it all o.k. Funny even. Sickening.

  24. Phil Deeze wrote:

    It’s the Rubik’s cube our women are faced with via the media:

    1) There’s the hypersexualized video vixen who you can spread her legs all which ways, swipe a credit card down the crack of her ample booty and she’ll never say no. Also, you don’t need to take her home to meet mom. Use her and fling her away. Clear heels not included in what you see on the TV ad.

    2) The love-starved heavy-set sistah. Replete with hand on hip, neck-wavin’ and sassy back-talk straight from the Pearl Bailey era. (And Pearl Bailey is an important figure in entertainment and I mean her no disrespect, but what we see today is something TOTALLY different than what Ms. Bailey was all about.) This heavy-set black lady? Why would anyone want her, as per Hollywood’s ideal? Too fat. Too brown-skinned. Dress with flowers on it not included.

    I found the sister in “Road Trip” to be more desirable. She turns the geeky white kid out (D.J. Qualls) and she gets taken home to meet mom and dad for her trouble. And besides, Rhonda was attractive. If I were ten years younger and wasn’t married? I’d slow-walk that down. Trust. ;-)

  25. chicagorose wrote:

    yolanda wrote:

    “this is the exact reason why i identify as a womanist and not a feminist–because feminism is historical for promoting what’s good for white women and ignoring the plight of others, period.”

    Which brings us to Amy Poehler and Tina Fey’s infamous “Bitch is the new black!” skit on SNL during the elections as a nod to Hillary Clinton. Girl power smitten Tina fans and Hillary supporters simply ate that up, swearing up and down that it had nothing to do with race, because, you know, SNL writers aren’t in to double entendres. It was just a clever twist on a classic fashion phrase! Nah, never thought Amy Poehler was far from the tainted well of SNL hipsterism in regards to race. But she gets props for a shared love and appreciation of Moooooo & Oink! commercials.

  26. Jamerican Muslimah wrote:

    I agree Tami.

    I would like to see a movie (or television show) with a large Black woman featured as a love interest. It would be wonderful if: (a) she is the lead character (b) her weight isn’t an issue nor is it comic relief (c) there are no mammy, sapphire, ghetto, neck-rolling scenes.

    Even Monique’s “Phat girls” was promblematic for me. I am also thinking of “Welcome Home Roscoe Jenkins” with Monique again. The big girl is almost always “manly” and “unladylike”; evidenced by the fact that she is willing to fight men (and in many cases beat them to a pulp). UGH!!!!

  27. 9jah wrote:

    @Killer Virgo:

    i. “big black woman” – This is a known caricature in TV and movies. Read the responses. The writers intentionally drew attention to the following qualities: big. black. woman. So yes, if they just said “sexy”, it would have been less obvious. However, the randomness of an obviously big black woman among skinny white women would have spoken volumes as well.

    ii. “Interesting choice” – This was meant to elicit laughter rather than be some big statement about American beauty choices. Or at least i’m guessing this was generally the result rather than some deep reflection. Among the issues:

    - placing the “big black woman” on one end of the American beauty pole is in itself problematic. Who decided this? White writers and Eddie Murphy?

    - Tom’s view is a stand-in for mainstream (white) American view – and this view pretty much goes unquestioned/unchallenged. He says desiring a big black woman is an interesting (read: questionable) choice and that’s where it ended. Not exactly a teachable moment. This is also problematic b/c Tom in many ways represents the reasonable, rational and intelligent American. Conversely, the foreigners are indeed “wacky”. They are arrogant and presumptuous themselves. So their choice of a big black woman follows in this vein rather than representing a higher beauty standard held by an enlightened group.

    - “Wacky Foreigner” – their saying I “will take” the black “one” suggests flat out objectification. It is also interesting that the writers allowed the foreigners to actually “take” her. To these white writers, she is expendable. Needless to say, if it was a white character it would not have ended that way; the white women would have stood on their soap box to educate the wacky foreigners about women’s rights with a charge to the men to spread the word to their dark ages brethren.

    - PoC gimmick – IMO, they also push the stereotype that Venezuelan (Latin) men like big women to drive home the idea that they are so unlike us (white folks/white acculturated PoC). Perhaps, the most creative way the writers could think of to show this was to emphasize their love for “big black women.”

    - I also think this was green lighted because Tom is a PoC. A not-so-clever way for the writers to hide behind a character. I can’t get over the fact they introduced this caricature for the sole purpose of illustrating how undesirable such people are to “us” Americans. The show makes clear to white folks that they dont have to bear the consequences for their ignorance or bias. The simple solution here was to give away the black woman.

  28. Valentina wrote:

    And also, the ‘brown guys with funny sounding Muslim names don’t make it really far in politics’ could be taken as a nod to President Obama. At least that’s how I took it…

  29. Valentina wrote:

    To Jamerican Muslimah:

    Check Queen Latifah’s Beauty Shop and Bringing Down the House. She plays both the lead and has a genuine love interest. She is big and beautiful

  30. 9jah wrote:

    @ Tara K -
    “Having seen third-wave feminism recognize the faults of past feminists and having seen feminism change and grown, I would ask that people allow it its own organic process.”

    Are we to grant men this same license in figuring out their own faults as concerns gender or is this a special allowance for white women in the feminist space?

    @ Nicole M

    “I totally agree about the show’s fumbling. But I still love it for its flashes of occasional brilliance and Amy Poehler’s consistent deadpanned wit.”

    Fumbling is a bad plot or something. The caricature is racist. When PoC folks bring up racism in something, people bring up all the redeeming qualities. Two different issues. As Tami said, she wants to like the show, probably for the brilliance you note. The show obviously need not be cancelled but not going out their way to include racist material would appear to be the simplest thing in the world to do!

  31. jvansteppes wrote:

    @chicagorose Your point about Poehler and Tina Fey’s ‘bitch is the new black’ segment had me nodding.
    I really can’t believe the accolades Tina Fey still receives from ‘feminists’ after that statement. I felt totally betrayed as someone who wanted to take her seriously. Race issues on her show, 30 rock leave me feeling pretty uneasy. The ongoing ‘who has it worse, blacks or women?’ battles between Tracy Jordan and Liz Lemon/Jenna Maroney continually erase the experiences of black women. And we know who Fey thinks is ‘most oppressed’; bitches, since they are the new black. But black bitches and other bitches of color don’t even figure in her world.

  32. Tami wrote:

    9jah,

    I was going to respond to killervirgo, but you broke it all down amazingly.

    P&R’s big, black woman bit had all the hallmarks of the same tired bit that always plays out in comedy. It seems to me you have to twist and contort to take any meaning from this storyline other than the common meaning of the big, black woman archetype in comedy.

  33. Antonio wrote:

    This whole post reminds me of two different incidents on Ugly Betty, both involving “big fat black women”:

    1) Ignacio (Betty’s father) is dealing with a social worker who falls for him. He’s not into her at all, but of course she goes nuts trying to win him over and eventually threatens to call immigration services. She’s a big black women. I vaguely recall her spouting off about some guy who had hurt her or something. (It was a long time ago)

    2) Ignacio has to sneak into Betty’s office on the weekends for some reason. The security guard is played by Monique who desperately wants to get it on with Ignacio.

    Both incidents were pretty bad with the typical sassy banter when Betty’s dad rejected the women. To Ugly Betty’s credit, Ignacio did seriously date a Latino woman who appeared to have African ancestry last year. She’s wasn’t a “big” girl, but I would say she was “full-figured”.

  34. Eva wrote:

    @Gail
    “The “rape” metaphor is horrifying as well…”Did you put your sword (penis) in my bus (butt)?” And the “sheepish” nod, followed by her attack/punishment, makes it all o.k. Funny even. Sickening.”

    I didn’t even pick up on that until you brought it up but it is an interesting point. Like I said, “Enchanted” is a movie that’s supposed to be for children. Ugh. I was just offended that a brown skinned, heavy black woman was used as a joke, “see she’s got superhuman strength, she can throw a grown man across the bus.”

  35. Christine wrote:

    @Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist: I was totally thinking of that too! I still can’t see, what was supposed to be “wrong” with Lafonda that made her relationship w/ the brother funny.

    @killervirgo: Is the standard of beauty in Venezuela full figured black women? I’m no expert, and could be wrong, but I thought that in South America European features (light skin, hair, eyes) were the standard of beauty.

  36. A.D. Nix wrote:

    I’ve gone back and forth on my feelings about this show. And it’s no accident. They are playing what I’d like to call the “Post-Racial” Two-Step. As in, one step “forward” (Hey, the dead-eyed, Ben-Stein-dry, sardonic character makes a joke about how having a Puerta Rican mother explains why she’s “so lively and colorful” – get it?) same old two steps back (black woman of size = the joke. The whole joke.)

    Bullshit with a scoop of ice cream on top is still bullshit. Even if someone’s trying to sell it as a banana split. I love that Donna is confident. I like the acknowledgment that bodies rejected one place may be desired bodies elsewhere. But that’s about as far down as the ice cream goes.

    Good call.

  37. Mammith wrote:

    @Antonio – The second incident you’re referring to didn’t involve Ignacio, but Henry. The weekend security lady had a thing for him.

    I read the first situation very differently, I mean with the immigration workers character they established that her work had made her a really lonely person who ended up having a breakdown. I don’t really see how that situation could be taken as problematic.

    The second situation is a little more borderline, though the fact Henry was with Betty to begin with, a fuller figured Latina character, I feel negated any possible ‘This is funny because that large black lady like him and the idea of that is weird!’ sort of feeling.

    To be honest, her character was no more ridiculous than most characters in the Ugly Betty universe.

  38. Mammith wrote:

    *likes him, sorry

  39. Chicano Rojo wrote:

    “why it’s considered “hilarious” if a WHITE MAN desires a big black woman (see Napoleaon Dynamite for example). ”

    Actually, TALL Black woman. The joke there is that a rural white nerd somehow manages to convice a woman, who he met over an internet chat room, to visit him. He has never seen this woman before not even in a photograph. He tells his uncle that she is a blonde babe. It turns out she is a beautiful tall (for him) black woman. The stereotype is that he goes from rural nerd hick to urban gangsta/hip-hop loving dude. At the end of the movie, they end marrying e/a other.

  40. Antonio wrote:

    @Mammith, it’s been awhile since I saw that episode. Good catch.

    The ‘reasoning’ for the immigration worker might’ve made sense, but the fact that they chose a big, black woman for the role is telling. I do give them credit for other depictions of people of color though.

  41. Erika wrote:

    I think the show Community is a lot worse when it comes to dumb race jokes, to be honest…but this trope is still pretty stupid!
    I do love comedy, but aside from all the sociological baggage that comes with poking fun at POC, most of the jokes out there are plain not funny, and always seem to poke at the same washed-out, overdone stereotypes. If you’re going to try to be all ~*~edgy~*~ by pulling out racist jokes, at least try to make it actually funny. Jeez.

  42. pnc wrote:

    It’s funny how so many on here quickly strayed from the subject of large black female exploitation in the entertainment business.

    I guess when you live in the land of white female privilege, these demeaning images of fat, black women actually serve to make you feel better about yourself since these women are usually presented as the antidote to white femininity, attractiveness, beauty, and desirability.

    Yes, the P&R episode was terrible. But an Office episode a few weeks ago was actually worse. In that episode, the black shipping clerk went on disability for an injury, so Dwight, suspicious as ever, goes undercover to see if the employee is on the up-and-up. Eventually he spots him carrying something heavy, so (AHA, I got ya!!) he jumps out of his car to confront him. Turns out it was the black guy’s, big black sister. The running joke was that she was so manly, it was impossible to tell them apart. So once again, fat black women are presented as super-strong, unfeminine, undesirable caricatures for laughs.

    Don’t even get me started on the big-gurl-chasing-after-a-man stereotype. There’s so much to say on this subject. I blog about the image of large black women frequently. Tami, thanks for posting this.

  43. dejamorgana wrote:

    Eva, I’m glad I’m not the only one who hates that scene in Enchanted. In fact, Enchanted was an absolutely atrocious movie in all its depictions of PoC (I sort of studied it while my daughter was watching it…) Every character of color in the movie is some kind of stereotype, from the mariachi singers, steel drum guys and black rollerbladers in Central Park, to the bus driver and the black couple whose divorce proceedings are going from bad to worse because they can’t agree who gets to keep a Hank Aaron baseball card.

    It sucks twice as much because Enchanted was a pretty nifty, smart sendup of the old Disney themes, if you happen to be a white girl. But it seems like Disney can’t avoid being racist even when they’re being all modern and meta. Makes me worry what the Princess and the Frog is going to be like.

  44. Fiqah wrote:

    What A.D. Nix said. Yup!

  45. RCHOUDH wrote:

    I find it interesting that they used one minority character (Haverford) to joke about the other one (Donna). Like someone else already stated above, Tom Haverford is meant to be a stand-in for what White America loves to think about big black women as being. At the same time he also represents his own stereotypes (the Indian male who lusts after white women; the insecure immigrant taking desperate measures to assimilate). So it’s telling that he’s the one openly making the racially insensitive joke (because white characters can’t anymore).

  46. Tami wrote:

    Chicano Rojo said:

    “Actually, TALL Black woman. The joke there is that a rural white nerd somehow manages to convice a woman, who he met over an internet chat room, to visit him. He has never seen this woman before not even in a photograph. He tells his uncle that she is a blonde babe. It turns out she is a beautiful tall (for him) black woman. The stereotype is that he goes from rural nerd hick to urban gangsta/hip-hop loving dude. At the end of the movie, they end marrying e/a other.”

    Re: Napolean Dynomite. The audience was still supposed to laugh at the visual cue of a large black woman. As I have heard many young, white males discuss this film, they never describe that character as “beautiful.” They use “manly.”

    And the joke of her paramour becoming an “urban gangsta/hip hop dude” plays on hella black stereotypes.

    PNC,

    Thank you! I had forgotten about that episode of The Office. That night I was watching the show while doing something else. I had hoped that scene wasn’t the way I thought it was.

    I have noticed that the archetype of the big, black woman is so strong in comedy that sometimes there doesn’t have to be much written around her. She can simply show up and exist in contrast to the white men and women around her and be the joke.

  47. Azizi wrote:

    If you enjoy music from the 1950s, this video clips of Marie Adams & The Three Tons of Joy, may be well worth watching and listening to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txz9ncZJMA4
    Goody Goody – Marie Adams & The Three Tons of Joy

    The group (which were regulars on the Johnny Otis television show) are also featured doing the hand jive on Otis’ rendition of that song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEeeGMpM_Nk
    Johnny Otis – Willie and the Hand Jive

    However, many of the viewers’ comments-especially for the Hand Jive video-are full of negative, laughing, sexually alluding statements about those singers’ weight.

    I wouldn’t be at all be surprised if I learned that the “Tons of Joy” had that group name chosen for them, and weren’t happy about it. That name reflects the Western societal view that fat women are a laughing matter.

    Women-and men-with wonderful voices have been discriminated against in the music business as well as on television, movies, and broadway (and outside of show business) because of the standard of beauty in the USA that says thin is in, and if your fat-step back, waaay back.

    What a shame.

  48. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Very good comments. I’m on the fence with this one, but there are some very good points made.

    I will not lie, I laughed at the break down, but this is why I come to racialicious, to also get an opposing viewpoint, to see if maybe, I’m not seeing the entire picture.

    I will say this, thick women, particularly black women, have always been desired, openly and covertly, in Latin America for some time.

    A Fijian coworker of mine was saying that she’d clean house down there. I agree. We don’t have as many of the weight hang ups down there as up here. We have them, but I think our men (my brother being one of them) recognize that thick women are beautiful too. I think that’s why I laughed because the “joke” wasn’t too far off re: the Venezuelans.

  49. Seattle Slim wrote:

    I might add that she does pretty well in here in the States (my Fijian coworker), but they’d probably steal off with her if she went down t like Panama

  50. Nicole M wrote:

    Thanks again for allowing me access to perspectives I don’t see on my own. I’m trying to put down my own filters about this, and I admit, it’s not easy.

    @9jah and @RCHOUDH I do find myself wanting to defend the characters I like, especially when they are being true to themselves as written. Tom Haverford is the only character on the show who intentionally makes jokes at others’ expense, ever, so why would Donna be an exception? I realize that the integrity of his character as written is not in question, I just wonder if it matters in the context of the racism you see in the joke. I wonder what the actor feels about it?

    @gail, I have a hard time absorbing a worldview that finds a rape metaphor in that scene in Enchanted. I too was horrified by the scary black woman stereotype (btw that movie empowered nothing but merch sales, still essentially the same rescued female drivel) but if the rape metaphor is carried through the whole scene, then isn’t it a strong statement about the power of black women not tolerating abuse at the hands of entitled white men? I’m honestly confused by this.

    I always walk away from racialicious.comwith my mind changed about something and a lot more to consider. So thanks, Tami.

  51. K wrote:

    @ Tami: It would surprise me that someone would consider LaFawnduh to be “manly”, because she’s quite the opposite.

    I always thought that the joke was supposed to be that his internet girlfriend was supposed to be horribly ugly/child/man or something like that, the usual internet GF joke. Obviously, I had some rose-colored glasses on about that.

    Black women are either hyper-sexualized or seen as completely asexual and mannish on television. It makes me sad that so many shows that are otherwise funny, intelligent and watchable miss the mark.

  52. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @K,

    That’s the way I saw Lawfunduh too. I thought the implication was that she was a tall, nubian amazon=a whole lot of woman for Nap’s brother.

  53. laromana wrote:

    Nicole says,
    I too was horrified by the scary black woman stereotype (btw that movie empowered nothing but merch sales, still essentially the same rescued female drivel) but if the rape metaphor is carried through the whole scene, then isn’t it a strong statement about the power of black women not tolerating abuse at the hands of entitled white men? I’m honestly confused by this.

    laromana says,
    The point is the BW shouldn’t be SINGLED OUT for ABUSE that FORCES them to HAVE to DEFEND THEMSELVES in the first place.
    This is why RACIST, ANTI-BW attitudes/mindsets (especially in American media/culture) have to be CHALLENGED/DESTROYED.

    They perpetuate RACIST, ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES that attack the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.

  54. eastmetwest wrote:

    I was also made speechless by this episode. As a larger black woman, it’s sadly become commonplace for me to see myself presented as this kind of character. As someone mentioned the potential (hell, the reality) of damage to women is very real. I changed the channel and refuse to watch things like ‘Norbit’ or most things featuring Martin Lawrence.

  55. Ain't I an African? wrote:

    @ Nicole M: “if the rape metaphor is carried through the whole scene, then isn’t it a strong statement about the power of black women not tolerating abuse at the hands of entitled white men? I’m honestly confused by this.”

    The point is that black women are portrayed as typically large and unfeminine. If the bus driver had been a slim, white woman, would the scene have played out the same way?

  56. Delux wrote:

    I’ve noticed, however, that some of the people who feel compelled to laugh at large Black women the hardest are the first to demand their help and support in a (real or imagined) crisis.

    I enjoy walking awayand seeing them have to fend for themselves.

  57. g531 wrote:

    Thank you for this.

  58. gail wrote:

    @ Nicole M & @ Ain’t I an African:

    Just to extend AIAA’s reply: The little vignette to illustrate “the power of black women not tolerating abuse at the hands of entitled white men” is an insidious narrative. She’s big, she’s angry, she’s black, and he “abused” her with his SWORD, metaphorically speaking, not his hands. The historical context of white men raping black women, and the modern day smackdown delivered by the busdriver in the film isn’t for the empowerment of black women, it’s an absolution for white men (and white women). His guilty little boy “oops” followed by her retribution is supposed to “make it all o.k.” Again, she’s big, she’s black, she’s angry and she hits back so no harm, no foul, right? What don’t get to see is her humanity. That’s the crime.

  59. JC wrote:

    I agree with the sentiment expressed by the poster; I also didn’t find the episode funny. Large black women, like short skinny Asian men, are the poster children for asexuality in white media. If there’s a show showing some women preferring an Asian guy as opposed to the white guy, then I think I feel pretty similarly.

    As for beautiful large black woman on mainstream TV – you all need to check out “The No. 1 Ladies’ Detective Agency” on HBO. Yes it takes place in Africa, but it’s staring a beautiful full-sized American black hottie Jill Scott. She’s not only the star of the show in every way possible, but she’s the object of both love and lust from a number of men. It’s not a perfect show and the creator and the production cast is unfortunately white, but I still think it’s a rare gem in the sea of white supremacist “mainstream” TV shows.