Comments

1. atlasien wrote:

   Or maybe Khan meant that her father was ethnically Chinese but hailed from Vietnam. There are a lot of Chinese-Vietnamese.

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 8:53 am ¶

2. Irene M. wrote:

   Not only is Teen Vogue infinity better at including models of color, they actually put a black, single, pregnant teenager on their cover without turning her into a horror story. Dunn is due in December and it’s wonderful how Teen Vogue is treating her like the working woman she is. How professional and refreshing.

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 10:04 am ¶

3. little mixed girl wrote:

   i think that both of the girls are quite pretty.
   i pick up teen vogue when i have spare money (it’s over $10 here).

   but, i have to say the “…and swears she’s not black” comment is totally offensive.
   if she’s only part-black or not black at all, then that’s what she is. the comment makes it sound like she blew a fuse and went on a 10minute rage as to why she isn’t and would never identify with black people, which, she didn’t.

   i don’t know about the chinese/vietnamese comment, but maybe her dad is ethnically chinese but from vietnam. there is a large chinese-vietnamese population in vietnam i hear.

   anyways. i’m always happy to see minority models. i hope that they start finding more minority models.

   …i also hope that teen vogue stops wasting so much space on adverts.

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 10:16 am ¶

4. Cindy wrote:

   Such a complicated issue to tease apart our racial heritage especially in the Americas and Caribbean. African American history starts at slavery since virtually everything before that was erased. African Americans are denied the richness of description and also carry the shame of race mixing because of slave owner rapes. The homogeneity that comes for African Americans because of this history just doesn’t work for other people of other elasticities/race/nationalities.

   I so often find that people with African heritage (which is as internally diverse as any other descriptive) coming from other countries consistently want to distance themselves from American Blacks. Sadly this comes as a distinction of hierarchy with American Blacks being on a lower level. There is a negative with the association.

   Khan doesn’t want to be assumed as an African American yet she is clearly ignorant of the truth of her own racial heritage by lumping Asians into a single pile and ignoring the race mixing inherent in Creole.

   Where do you draw the line between breaking it all down and just being the whole person?

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 10:16 am ¶

5. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

   Have you guys noticed that publications and magazines for kids and young adults/teenagers tend to be much more racially and ethnically diverse? I remembered seeing so many girls of color in AMERICAN GIRL magazine when I read that as a child in the 90s.

   It’s the same for Disney shows and Nickelodeon shows, too!!!

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 10:33 am ¶

6. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

   I so often find that people with African heritage (which is as internally diverse as any other descriptive) coming from other countries consistently want to distance themselves from American Blacks. Sadly this comes as a distinction of hierarchy with American Blacks being on a lower level. There is a negative with the association.

   Um, maybe because Africans want to make it clear that they are NOT the same as African Americans? as an Indian, I’ve known many Indians who want to distance themselves from people of Indian heritage who come from Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad&Tobago, etc.. yes, we all might have come from India, but we do NOT share the same culture.

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 10:36 am ¶

7. Ay-leen wrote:

   I also want to also thrown in my $.02 about the Chinese population in Vietnam: they’re a significant minority group and in Ho Chi Minh City, they even have their own community that’s equivalent to America’s Chinatowns called Cholon.

   I also have Chinese friends whose families are from Vietnam but don’t identify themselves as Vietnamese, since they are from the Cholon community.

   Still, I wish Khan clarified herself better if that was her point.

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 11:03 am ¶

8. eh wrote:

   Well, race is a social construct, and Khan should know that by now. She should test how society treats her by walking into one of those 5th Avenue stores w/out makeup and an entourage. I give her a pass because she is 19, has modeled for a while, and probably doesn’t know what creole means (in the modern context). Aren’t Lisa’s parents also from the Caribbean (Lisa on Housewives of ATL)?

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 11:04 am ¶

9. Joy wrote:

   Why was the Vogue black issue an “overwhelming disappointment”?

   Anyway, I don’t know why people continue to be so *confused* about the term black automatically meaning American. Gosh. You can be black without being an American.

   @Cindy – it does seem that some black people try to difference themselves from Americans . . . I used to get offended, but maybe it’s just a nationality pride thing. I’m proud to be American, so it makes sense that other people are proud to be __________.
   (It does get kind of annoying when they insist “I’m not black,” see above, but whatever.)

   Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 11:22 am ¶

10. Kara wrote:

    In all fairness to Selina Khan, in Martinique, there are a dozen different “races”, referred to by different names based on appearance. “Noir”(black) is only for someone who’s phenotype suggests mostly african ancestry. People who are of indian and african ancestry are called “Chappé Coulis”. If you have a light complexion, you are “Chabin/Chabine”. Light hair? “Blonde Tropicale”. Very darkskinned? “Neg Congo” And the list goes on and on… So in her cultural context, she is not black.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 11:38 am ¶

11. Kat wrote:

    I’m just happy to see more people of color in fashion.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 12:41 pm ¶

12. Kaonashi wrote:

    Chanel Iman and Sessilee Lopez are also featured in the main fashion spread of Allure this month.

    Irene: Jordann also walked the Gaultier show this month; he made a special dress for her showcasing her belly, lol!

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 2:20 pm ¶

13. Seattle Slim wrote:

    I do believe that the Italian Vogue issue was a success. It became a collectible, and they had to do some back ordering because people were snatching them up. I myself couldn’t find one. It was sold out.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 3:09 pm ¶

14. Joy wrote:

    The dress: http://www.stylelist.com/blog/tag/Jourdan+Dunn+Pregnant+on+Catwalk/

    

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 3:10 pm ¶

15. Emmeaki wrote:

    “Selina Khan is from the French-speaking Caribbean island of Martinique and swears she’s not black, but ‘Indian, mixed with Arabic and Creole, and Vietnamese.’”

    Really, “black” is a political concept. Americans shouldn’t judge other POC’s negatively because they don’t call themselves black. It’s the same issue that was posted on Racialicious about Dominicans and other black Latinos.

    Race is viewed differently in different parts of the world, especially in places where the population is of mixed heritage.

    I’m just happy to see brown-skinned people represented in mainstream magazines regardless of how they classify themselves.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 3:12 pm ¶

16. Irene M. wrote:

    Joy, I love that dress. How fun!

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 4:23 pm ¶

17. Cindy wrote:

    @Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist and @Joy There is certainly nothing wrong with affirming your own specific heritage. We all do that. Embracing the diversity of our own varied cultures is to love all that goes into our personal identities. That’s a great thing.

    My comment was directed more to the desire of many blacks to distance themselves from African Americans because the association is viewed as negative, as a lower status for some. Racial similarity regardless of the true diversity behind it does not negate the inclination of some to rank people in a relative social/racial status system.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 6:55 pm ¶

18. 9jah wrote:

    If she says she’s not black we should take her word for it. Good clarification by Kara (although I can only imagine what kind of magnificent and imaginative racism underlies “congo negro”!)

    @ Cindy – “African American history starts at slavery since virtually everything before that was erased. African Americans are denied the richness of description and also carry the shame of race mixing because of slave owner rapes.”

    I am guessing you’re not African American. I would suggest that not all AfAm share the view that their descriptives have no richness nor carry “shame” for race mixing from rape. AfAm community has forged the most cohesive “black” identity in the face of a white majority than any other place.

    Plus, how is the history of African Americans starting at slavery any different than others in the African Diaspora outside of Africa??

    “people with African heritage…consistently want to distance themselves from American Blacks”

    You should speak to more people of African heritage. I am of Nigerian heritage and identify equally as “African American” (in the traditional sense) as I do “Nigerian”. Your statement is loaded. To be sure, some African/Caribbean people (particularly those not born or bred in US) may want to give voice to their particular cultural experience, but that’s different from saying they have something against AfAm folks.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 7:52 pm ¶

19. Alta wrote:

    I agree with #15. I don’t think she said she wasn’t black because she was repulsed by the concept. I think she just wanted to specify her ethnicity. I can understand where she’s coming from as I sometimes think that some people in this country think that being black automaticallly means you’re African-American. And being white means you’re American (as opposed to a white Brazillian, Cuban, etc.)

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 8:27 pm ¶

20. Justine wrote:

    I remember reading a comment on Jezebel from a black Canadian woman who observed that black Americans self worth seems to depend too much on what whites think of them. And it made me think of why we care so much about being represented in the fashion industry. This whole movement of promoting black models just rubs me the wrong way. It’s not that I don’t want to see black models, but I think high fashion magazines are too shallow and exploitative to be an acceptable venue to discuss notions of race and beauty. If fashion designers don’t think black models can be seen as beautiful, we shouldn’t just demand they put more black models on covers and runways, but we should be reevaluating why these dumbasses are so important and why their idea of what is beautiful matters. They represent a luxury industry, and I honestly don’t believe that they have a big impact on the self-image of the average woman of color, or women in America in general. What would impact the self-image of women is having positive role models in their everyday life who respect themselves as well as other women. From someone who works with under privileged young women, most of whom are women of color, from what I have seen, it’s not fashion mags that distort their self-image, but the abuse that women in their life put up with and a society that blames them solely for their problems.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 9:26 pm ¶

21. Joy wrote:

    Most of these comments highlight the reason why the term African American should be retired. We’re *Americans.* Oh, yes in addition we are also black. Just like you are also American, and oh you’re white. Time to divorce nationality from color instead of trying to make it a combo deal.

    @9jah – I don’t think Cindy’s saying black Americans deny their richness, but that their richness is denied by others.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 9:36 pm ¶

22. TN wrote:

    thought I’d jump in and put in my two cents…

    Actually what Khan really says is: “My mom’s Indian, mixed with Arabic and Creole, and my dad is Vietnamese. Yep, Indian and Chinese.” When the interviewer asks Khan to clarify–”I thought you said Vietnamese”–Khan explains knowingly, “It’s ethnically the same thing. Just a different country.”

    Now, if only we could get Khan to stop misrecognizing all Asians as being the same.

    Being Vietnamese myself, I am very aware that generally people of Chinese heritage who can be multi-generation living in Vietnam still consider themselves Chinese. To be Vietnamese is seen as being “lower” than Chinese (they did rule over us various times over the past few thousand years).

    Ethnically speaking, originally (thousand(s) years back or so)… the Vietnamese people are very close almost same as the Chinese, but as the Vietnamese advanced southwards aka stole other lands and took over Champa and part of the Khmer Empire, the people also started mixing with the original occupants of this “stolen” land.

    Modern day Vietnamese people are a mix between ancient Viet/Chinese and ancient mainland SE Asian peoples. So in a way, what Khan said is correct.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 10:52 pm ¶

23. Cindy wrote:

    @9jah I would totally agree that African Americans have forged a rich culture…one that is in many ways emulated throughout the world. With a strength that cannot be denied African Americans have created a powerful cultural identity…an American identity.

    I was speaking specifically to the knowledge of one’s specific ethnic, national and racial history when saying they are denied the richness of this description. It is much like the adopted child who knows nothing of their birth parents. They only have the image in the mirror by which to judge. (with DNA testing this is changing a bit)

    The American slavery experience is different from that of other countries for a whole host of reasons…too many to go into. I won’t even step into any comparisons here.

    I believe I used the word “some” blacks distance themselves from African American labels. Not All. Be careful not make any assumptions about how many people from Africa, the Caribbean, Asia, etc, people of all races and nationalities I or anyone else interacts with on a daily basis or have throughout my life. You don’t know my specific history (or racial makeup for that matter). I prefer to keep my dialogue in a general sense in this forum…personalized but not personal.

    I don’t purport to speak for all people. I can only speak to the conversations and life experiences I have with those I love, those I know and those I meet on a daily basis.

    Of course, it is a loaded statement. Discussions on race always are. That’s the point. I would expect my experience and what may be shared with me is different from yours.

    Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 11:47 pm ¶

24. Feminist Review wrote:

    What do you think the shift has been that has prompted Vogue to start paying attention to race in the past few years?

    Posted 16 Oct 2009 at 5:50 am ¶

25. Louise wrote:

    In the caribbean the term Creole is different, depending on where you are!!! In the english caribbean it denotes black people comprised of all the black ethnic groups that arrived in the caribbean and the absorbsion of the carib population and have mingled to comprise the majority black (dark skinned and light skinned) population, it denotes our culture and our heritage. so i do not understand how some use it to denote a distinctness from blackness.

    However in the french caribbean it does denote a biraciality between whiteness and something else, but usually the other component is black….

    just my two cents

    Posted 16 Oct 2009 at 7:11 am ¶

26. Medusa wrote:

    @ DIMA, Cindy et al…

    Yeah, when I lived in America, there was this automatic assumption made that I was African American. I mean, it’s a really ridiculous assumption. Not necessarily for me, since I do have the accent, but it’s just a general assumption that being black ends and begins with being a West African slave-descendant. I actually had this one white friend tell me how she’s surprised every time she hears a black man speaking with a British accent, although she never has that surprise to hear a white person with one. WTF? I wrote a guest post about this subject a few months ago here.

    Iman’s advice doesn’t seem all that helpful, since it seems like she’s putting the onus on black models to be positive, and if they do that, then all the racism in the industry will disappear and models and designers will be holding hands and skipping, rather than addressing the fact that black models are being ignored in favor of upholding the current beauty standard, which is decidedly not black. I mean, yeah it’s true no one likes to work with negative people, but I don’t think telling black models they need to be positive is going solve the overarching problem.

    Posted 16 Oct 2009 at 7:52 am ¶

27. 9jah wrote:

    @ Cindy –

    “I was speaking specifically to the knowledge of one’s specific ethnic, national and racial history when saying they are denied the richness of this description.”

    what description? I don’t follow. If what you’re saying is that AfAm aren’t able to trace their history in terms of lineage in Africa, I don’t disagree. However, this is largely the same for other communities in the African diaspora. This is my point. Maybe on this point, I misunderstand more than I disagree.

    “I so often find that people with African heritage coming from other countries consistently want to distance themselves from American Blacks. Sadly this comes as a distinction of hierarchy with American Blacks being on a lower level.”

    I make no assumptions as to your interactions. While I don’t question your experience, there is a clear implication from your statement above that this attitude is or may be representative of attitudes of folks of Africna heritage (or else it would not bear mentioning). At a minimum, there is the risk that anyone reading your statment will generalize from your experience to the broader reality.

    All I suggested is that your experience (as stated) may not be representative of prevalent attitudes towards AfAm. and further offered some nuance to explain what may be behind a perceived diss…you did after all make an affirmative statement that these attitudes are based on a superiority complex from a “distinction of hierarchy.”

    And actually, you didn’t use the word “some” blacks. See above. Your key qualifiers were “often” and “consistently”.

    Posted 16 Oct 2009 at 6:31 pm ¶

28. Margo wrote:

    They are still incredibly scrawny which is a white ideal. If Teen Vouge really wanted to get it right they would put woman with hips on the cover!

    Posted 17 Oct 2009 at 1:05 am ¶

29. Tiffany wrote:

    http://glamtasticdiva.blogspot.com

    Models of various ethnic backgrounds are not having problems finding work, the real issue is if you don’t actually follow fashion then obviously you won’t know which magazines or print ads or runways shows the ladies are getting booked in.

    http://glamtasticdiva.blogspot.com

    Posted 17 Oct 2009 at 10:15 am ¶

30. Michele wrote:

    @ Tiffany

    I clicked on your link and the first model I see is Naomi Campbell the 2cd is Tyra Banks and then I see Kimora Lee. There were other models on the site. If you want to convince people black models are a force in the industry I wouldn’t push a site with 3 women that started modeling 2o years ago. Honestly I cant’ name a popular black model under 30. To be honest I can only name a few white models. Naomi Campbell has gone on record saying black models aren’t being used very much in the industry especailly during bad economic times.

    Posted 17 Oct 2009 at 6:05 pm ¶

31. ashlynn wrote:

    @Michelle

    I’m pretty sure that Tyra was right up front because her cover was the most recent news. But as Tiffany says, the site features various models of different ethnicities. I looked at the link myself and was satisfied with the output- after all, fashion needs more brown-skinned woman taking precedence in general.

    Because fashion is so exclusive, and rarely as commercialized as it once was, a lot of people couldn’t name more than a few models. I can, but only because I do pay some attention to fashion and I have a good memory. That said, Tiffany is right in that oftentimes, ethnic models don’t have mentors or connections who can give them a card or point them in the right direction(to credible agencies, that is). But even still, there are plenty of ethnic models working and scouts casting, so clearly at some point the two should meet, but curiously, it doesn’t seem to happen that way…hm.

    Posted 18 Oct 2009 at 4:37 pm ¶

32. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Models of various ethnic backgrounds are not having problems finding work, the real issue is if you don’t actually follow fashion then obviously you won’t know which magazines or print ads or runways shows the ladies are getting booked in.”

    You’re kidding, right? Anyone who’s been actually following fashion knows that this isn’t true, and that the lack of non-white models isn’t seen as a problem. When asked about it, fashion insiders will pass the buck to one another.

    Posted 19 Oct 2009 at 6:46 am ¶

33. Mandy Katz wrote:

    Did you read the NY Times winter fashion supplement, “Anglomania,” yesterday? I did. They could have called this one “The White Issue.” Having actually been to England in recent years (were the writers?), I knew enough to look for for brown skin and foreign accents for signs that the magazine caught the polyglot culture that is what’s really “cool” in Cool Britannia, now. But all I saw were wan aristos and bony baby rockers (Mick Jagger’s son – b.f.d.) One stock photo of Naomi Campbell doesn’t count in my book.

    Posted 19 Oct 2009 at 8:23 am ¶