Racialicious Loves OK Cupid…
by Latoya Peterson
…Because they got the data to back up what we already knew: your success in online dating is heavily influenced by your race. In a trends post titled, “Your Race Affects Whether People Write You Back,” the OK Cupid team share some key trends they’ve noticed after analyzing their user data:
Black women are sweethearts. Or just talkative. But either way, they are by far the most likely to reply to your first message. In many cases, their response rate is one and a half times the average, and overall black women reply about a quarter more often. White men get more responses. Whatever it is, white males just get more replies from almost every group. We were careful to preselect our data pool so that physical attractiveness (as measured by our site picture-rating utility) was roughly even across all the race/gender slices. For guys, we did likewise with height. White women prefer white men to the exclusion of everyone else—and Asian and Hispanic women prefer them even more exclusively. These three types of women only respond well to white men. More significantly, these groups’ reply rates to non-whites is terrible. Asian women write back non-white males at 21.9%, Hispanic women at 22.9%, and white women at 23.0%. It’s here where things get interesting, for white women in particular. If you look at the match-by-race table before this one, the “should-look-like” one, you see that white women have an above-average compatibility with almost every group. Yet they only reply well to guys who look like them. There’s more data on this towards the end of the post.
Men don’t write black women back. Or rather, they write them back far less often than they should. Black women reply the most, yet get by far the fewest replies. Essentially every race—including other blacks—singles them out for the cold shoulder. White guys are shitty, but fairly even-handed about it. The average reply rate of non-white males is 48.1%, while white guys’ is only 40.5%. Basically, they write back about 20% less often. It’s ironic that white guys are worst responders, because as we saw above they get the most replies. That has apparently made them very self-absorbed. It’s interesting that white males do manage to reply to Middle Eastern women. Is there some kind of emergent fetish there? As Middle Easterners are becoming America’s next racial bogeyman, maybe there’s some kind of forbidden fruit thing going on. (Perhaps a reader more up-to-date on his or her Post-Colonial Theory can step in here? Just kidding. Don’t.)
The post also includes informative charts like this one:
Go read the rest.
Related:
Open Thread: Dating, Online and Off
Craigslist Personals: Desperately Seeking Diversity Training
(Thanks to Eric, Thomas, and Korshi for the tip!)
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
c.n.edaw wrote:
Am I supposed to be surprised by this? Doesn’t most of pop culture indicate black women are desperate to be desired? Seriously, I have never ventured into online dating for many reasons, but even without this data I always figured the odds could not be any better for me in cyberspace than they are in the real world. Thanks for saving me the time of enrolling or spending any money
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 10:22 am ¶
Irene M. wrote:
Yay! First, excellent and conclusive stats on racism and dating. It’s great to have something like this out there. Second, it’s crazy that I even feel this way, but I’m glad that the writer at OK Cupid was upfront and didn’t excuse or downplay the racism.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 10:43 am ¶
Mahsino wrote:
People fessing up to racism in their own (online) community? My mind needs a second to process this. I’m not saying I’m surprised or happy by the data- it only validates what I’ve always suspected, but I’m pretty shocked by how clear cut it’s being presented (with visuals and everything!).
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 10:50 am ¶
Miss Max wrote:
I like this a lot because this may be the first time a generally white audience gets to see this info. I used to be a part of OKCupid and I think this bears out because of the way they match people up – you can say your preferences and the site will match you to people who fit them – and you don’t have to publicly reveal what your preferences are. I’m Impressed that they revealed this info… but as a black woman kinda depressed about it too…
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 11:17 am ¶
Jha wrote:
Ooooooh. Well, I think it’s great that OKCupid did all that legwork.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:05 pm ¶
Eva wrote:
This is SO totally true. I am on eHarmony right now and a white man stopped communication with me as soon as he saw what I looked like. Now if that’s not racism, I don’t know what is.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:05 pm ¶
Nellis wrote:
I guess it’s kind of good in the sense that there is actual data backing up long-held beliefs, but does this mean that black women shouldn’t even bother with dating? What’s the point if nobody wants them?
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:26 pm ¶
TheVoiceOfReason wrote:
I gotta say that as a black female I’m really depressed about this, but on the flip-side thank God I never spent my hard earned money subscribing to online dating. This is sad because deep seated prejudices come into play when people start dating.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:32 pm ¶
Lola wrote:
I already new this based on ancedotal evidence but it is important to have official stats. Sad too as a black woman.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:39 pm ¶
octogalore wrote:
Interesting, and depressing, data. The “would you strongly prefer” chart is particularly depressing.
One thing that’s odd about the charts on the OK-cupid site. For black males receiving messages, the response rate to white and black female senders varies by 14%. For white males, it varies by 9%. Similarly, for black males receiving messages, the response rate to Asian and black female senders varies by 18%. For white males, it varies by 9%.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:41 pm ¶
CKR wrote:
I think this info is very interesting and telling. I think the desire of non-whites to be more willing to not date people of their own race deals with the pedestal that we put white people on. That is what we are told is desirable. I think a good amount of white people on that Cupid site believe this as well, hence why they also pretty much half the time prefer their own race.
I have no issue with interracial dating (being in one myself) but it should be on genuine terms. Date someone b/c you find them attractive, like what they’re into, and see yourself on the same trajectory as them. Don’t date someone b/c of your negativity towards other races, or because you think this person of a particular race is better overall or ten steps ahead b/c of their race alone.
I think it’s a shame that people still lead with that mentality when picking someone to share their time with. I think they need to take a look at themselves and wonder why they make these decisions b/c it’s not a simply matter of “preference.”
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 12:45 pm ¶
SK wrote:
I’m wondering if and how religion fits into all of this. The world’s major religions are somewhat organized around racial/ethnic lines and more devout people may simply have a preference to date someone of their own religious background, skin colour notwithstanding. Now whether “religion-ism” is the same or equivalent to racism with respect to mixed relationships is a whole other story…
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 1:39 pm ¶
Alicia wrote:
Very interesting and somewhat disheartening post about the choices we make in dating. As a black female, my personal experience on eharmony and match.com have been a little different. I have always posted my photos and gotten the majority of responses from black males, but at the same time have received a significant number of responses from white males and males of other ethnicities. If I had to estimate, I’d say 20 to 30 percent of my responders have been non black. On match and eharmony, I have communicated with and dated black men, latino men, east indian men and white men. I do have a preference for black men, for cultural reasons, mostly, but remain open to a good man of whatever race/ethnicity- period.
Despite, the dismal conclusions that can be drawn from the okcupid survey, I would encourage black women not to give up on dating online as a viable option in addition to whatever else you may be doing.
One final note: I don’t really deal with the whole rejection by race factor. This may be really lazy, but I typically only respond to men who reach out to me. Only rarely will I contact a man first.
P.S. I am no great beauty, but I probably fit most people’s definition of cute.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 1:42 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:
” Alicia: This may be really lazy, but I typically only respond to men who reach out to me. :
Amen to that! I don’t think persuing men online as a BW is productive enought to be worth the time and ego bruises that come with it. My advice is to put a photo up where you look attractive, but not quite as stunning as you do in person so that if you meet the guy there’s no way he’ll be disappointed in your looks and waste your time.
Yes, the stats aren’t in BW’s favor but that could be why our reply rate is so high because we *know* we’re fighting an uphill battle against negative perceptions. Despite the odds I would highly recommend online dating. I met my husband on eHarmony (so of course I think that’s the best one), I think the guys there are more marriage minded than on match. However, the match guys were hotter.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 1:54 pm ¶
TheVoiceOfReason wrote:
OK Cupid fessed up tot the racism happening but not the people responding in the comments. There is a serious denial of the discrimination that is happening here. I also see lots of “I work with black women I’m not racist.” type of responses. People screw people they wouldn’t marry all the time. Stereotypes and oppression comes into play. There are people even claiming that this is natural. If that’s the case then on a world perspective why are there so many blacks in the first place? Why do Asians outnumber whites? There is an elephant in the room that everyone refuses to look at except the ones who don’t benefit from this type of discrimination. I see more white men in denial of what they are doing. It’s just like people saying that Nazi’s are good people just a “little misguided”. Huh?
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 2:01 pm ¶
9jah wrote:
Whoa! black dudes pulling up the rear on the same race/color attraction?? I would never have guessed that one. Definitely not a good look.
That said, I am wondering how much of a tech bias there is in the BM sample. Perhaps, the core users of online dating services who are black men may not be representative of BM generally in terms of preferences and apetites.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 2:07 pm ¶
malted_tea wrote:
Not sure why but I subscribed to the OK Cupid feed reader a few weeks ago and their blog is FULL of interesting survey results.
It’s not really that it’s about dating but that it’s about human relations.
At the end of this survey, if I’m not mistaken, the blog writer wondered if any other dating sites would dare to release similar data.
Now THAT would be marvelously interesting!
As to the facts, I don’t like them but they’re true for OKs community. While my dating experience isn’t similar, I found myself staring at that data for at least an hour when it was released and concur with most commentators here: it’s reflective of real life.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 2:13 pm ¶
Seattle Slim wrote:
Wow…
Wow…
*rubs temples; gathers thoughts*
I figured this would be the case, to an extent, but I didn’t realize the stats would be that bad, that terrible. How disheartening is that?
With that said, I agree. I did not reach out to men, after noticing a pattern corroborated by this, and after that things were good to go.
It’s definitely not worth the assault on one’s sanity or self-esteem to approach these men first, if you are a BW.
I’m still flabbergasted…
I guess my queston is WHY? Why are BW, at least on OKCupid, viewed with such derision and repugnance? What’s going on?
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 3:06 pm ¶
refresh_daemon wrote:
It’s also interesting if you contrast it against their previous post: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/09/29/how-races-and-religions-match-in-online-dating/
Towards the end, they do an examination of how well persons of different races “match” each other, which is to say how compatible they are with each other, based on interests, lifestyles, etc. (which are gathered from answering their questions), and it shows that, more or less, everyone is equally compatible with everyone when it comes to race.
It’s interesting to see the huge contrast then, despite the relatively even compatibility, how strongly the actual message reply rates vary in comparison to assumed compatibility.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 3:07 pm ¶
Marian wrote:
Dear Irene M: These are *not* the first excellent interracial dating stats. I was doing this kind of research in the mid-nineties, as an undergrad: http://www.yale.edu/opa/arc-ybc/ybc/v24.n32.comenc.09.html (The Edward Sapir Prize for the best senior essay in anthropology was awarded to Marian Swanzy-Parker of Pierson College for “Yale Students’ Perceptions of Similarity and Difference: Interracial Dating, Interracial Marriage, and the Reinforcement of Racial Stratification.”) And my findings/conclusions were recently recapitulated by Cynthia Feliciano et al. here: http://paa2008.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=80046
I will say this, however: As with today’s other post on this site regarding OK Cupid and racial/racist preferences, good luck getting the majority of people to seriously interrogate what their preferences mean, and how they are produced by hierarchical, unequal understandings of race and attractiveness (i.e. the ways in which perceptions of similarity and difference, as well as beauty and attractiveness, are always already racialized–however implicitly and unconsciously). Far too many people are committed to believing that they are ‘post-racial’ and ‘colorblind,’ and so bringing this kind of data up opens one up to the most vicious kinds of personal attack. And, sadly, I am speaking from personal experience. This kind of data-and its *structural* implications–is just too much of an affront to mainstream US political discourses of individuality and the individual as the ultimate locus of control (as well as actual racial inequality in the US), especially for those unwilling to brook the social fact of ‘white privilege.’
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 4:06 pm ¶
Just A Thought wrote:
@ 9jah
The fact that black men are pulling up the rear on same race/color attraction does not shock me. I’ve had too many black men openly tel lme that they prefer lighter women with wavy/curly hair. I’ve had too many black men approach me, ask if I am Latina/mixed, and then look crestfallen when I say I am black. I’ve heard too many black men, 90+% of whom are dark with tightly coiled hair, say that darker women are ugly. I’ve had too many black men denigrate black features and black women, so the data just confirms my experience.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 4:23 pm ¶
GENQ10 wrote:
Most people are racists to various degrees; that this reflects in dating choices does not surprise me. I just wish people wouldn’t be so sentimental about “love” and “romance” and would be honest about what it is that really draws us to each other.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 5:06 pm ¶
Montclair Mommy wrote:
@CKR: agreed.
This is very depressing.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 5:54 pm ¶
yolanda wrote:
and it shows that, more or less, everyone is equally compatible with everyone when it comes to race.
It’s interesting to see the huge contrast then, despite the relatively even compatibility, how strongly the actual message reply rates vary in comparison to assumed compatibility.
i think the answer is so simple it’s complex. it’s because people don’t take the time to get to know someone of a different race beyond the surface. when you’re too busy self-segregating and willfully believing stereotypes how can you be friends with someone? let alone date them? sad, but true (in my experience).
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 6:25 pm ¶
diorama wrote:
i dont think it’s a racist thing to have preferences in who you date. as you can see most people prefer to date people NOT of their own race. dating preferences has nothing to do with racism. Just like how some men prefer big boobs over small boobs, etc. or how some women prefer tall guys over short guys. that’s not racism – its a physical preference.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 6:50 pm ¶
Irene M. wrote:
Marian, thank you for the links. It’s great to have more information.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 7:21 pm ¶
Eccentric1 wrote:
I’m not seeing a lot of male response on this thread so I’ll wade in. There are a lot of responses lamenting the terrible response rate that BW receive from all racial groups on OKCupid, with high lights to the low responses from BM. But, without a doubt, you are ice skating up a cold, steep hill with ALL races if you are a Black Male. The odds are even more challenging than Black Women in several ways. The weighted average for a response if the sender is a Black Male is 21.7%, only ahead of Indian men, and that by roughly a % point. Even within our own race, Black Women responded to Black Men Senders ONLY 28% of the time. Black Men respond to Black Women Senders 37% of the time. Note also that Black Men and Indians are the only men with response rates in the teens! Within that, Black Men have the distinction of having the LOWEST of ANY response rate for a given racial paring (17% response rate from Asian Women). As a Black Male who has notable amount of experience with Eharmony and other dating sites, this isn’t remotely surprising data. In regards to responses, Black Women don’t have it nearly as bad as Black Men.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 7:31 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:
interesting stuff…i haven’t read the original article yet, but is there anything on how many people would strongly prefer to date “outside” their race? that’s a different question than the one asked in the chart above and i think possibly a better one as i found both the question and the data in the chart above to be a bit…confusing, or at least not getting to the heart of the issue.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 7:51 pm ¶
tj wrote:
If I had one dollar for every time one of these damn studies gets met with by EXTREME denial by the people with the highest prejudice-I believe I would be a BILLIONAIRE.
Ugh, basically sucks to be a Black woman. I mean after all, look at how terrible Oprah is doing. I mean really, I just know some people really innately feel that Black women are biologically ugly and not just socially ugly to them because they are racist. And just because A WHOLE BUNCH of people feel that way, doesn’t make it not racist. But Black women for me personally, I’ve never seen a woman more beautiful-and that’s the God’s honest truth. I think people have stereotypes of Black woman, and by in large, they do reject the white men that try to converse with them.
I mean but really, how bad does it feel to be a white woman, who is only desired STEREOTYPICALLY. I mean, that also has to suck. Don’t like me because society tells you to!
I accept the statistics, and I accept the people as racist. Period point blank.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 9:20 pm ¶
Sonic wrote:
You know, someone on the OKCupid site made a comment about how they (and I’m paraphrasing here):
[wouldn't screw guys either, and does that make them homophobic?] in an attempt to defend the fact that people are only attracted to certain races.
I FEEL in my gut there are some fallacies with this analogy, but for the life of me cannot figure out what they are. Can someone help me tease out the rationale behind this thought and why it’s wrong?
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 10:17 pm ¶
JuJuBean wrote:
I found this post on the original report of these results and I think it is so poignant I want to re-post it here. I don’t know who the brotha is that posted it but it is dead on, and I hope more Black women open their eyes to the truth and do not let this hysteria set in:
” GucciMang
Oh yeah, and its obvious that Black women are continuously being targeted in these ’studies’ to attempt to assassinate their image publicly. In the past year, how many ’studies’ have come out telling us the same thing, that nobody likes Black women, in different ways?? Notice how they’re publicizing it EVERYWHERE so that Black women will eventually have no choice but to feel self conscious about being a Black woman? Even when its a Black woman who hasn’t had any problems whatsoever getting men to want her in her personal life she will eventually have no choice but to feel self conscious and inferior in her dealings with men because of the constant hammering in that nobody desires the group she belongs to? Black women are becoming the media’s punching bag and easy target.
Notice how Indian and Black men have the lowest rates of responses but they cued in on Black women? Its because they know to attack a woman’s desirability in this society is one of the best targets you have if you want to tear her and her race down. At this point, they are doing it to Black women as far as desirability the way they have been doing it to Black men as far as trying to publicly label us criminals and deadbeats. People like the guy who did this research are actively trying to make Black women seem undesirable to races to further promote white superiority (because who is the furthest from whites women? black women of course).
Anyway in short, Sistas hold your head. The meek shall inherit the Earth.
One.”
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 10:49 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“as you can see most people prefer to date people NOT of their own race.”
Probably untrue. I mean, what do you see when you go outside, or reflected in interracial marriage information? Sites like OKC that are overwhelmingly dominated by whites are likely to attract a particular type of minority — the kind that has an intense attraction to white people. There are many other sites that serve different minority groups for, for instance, Indian women who want to meet Indian men, Latinas who want to meet Latin men, etc. The majority of minorities — who have much stronger same race preferences — who online date probably use those sites instead of, or at least in conjunction with, the mainstream sites.
“But, without a doubt, you are ice skating up a cold, steep hill with ALL races if you are a Black Male.”
True. The fact that these results blow a giant hole in a commonly held myth about black males — (a belief that’s held so tightly that it’s reiterated in the comments for the OKC results that debunk it repeatedly), that their largely negative stereotype/popular characterization actually works in their favor in the dating arena and makes them equally popular or sometimes more popular than white males with many races of women, including white females — is the sleeper revelation here.
Posted 09 Oct 2009 at 11:42 pm ¶
octogalore wrote:
Wendi’s question is interesting about wanting to date outside ones race vs the question asked in the survey.
This is anecdotal, but it occurs to me that of white, Asian, black guys I’ve dated or been friends with, a number have mentioned the attractiveness of dating someone who looks different from their mom. Although that decision often changes when it’s time for marriage.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 12:34 am ¶
gordon gartrelle wrote:
I’m a little baffled by the hand-wringing.
Why would you be upset that someone would exclude you as a potential partner based on your race? At best, such a person probably isn’t your type; at worst, such a person is a bigot.
Admonishing people for their romantic/sexual preferences is always a losing proposition.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 1:42 am ¶
Mrs. R. wrote:
Gordon Gartrelle, love ya shirts!
This info makes me so happy I’m no longer in the dating market. However, before I met Mr. R. over seven years ago, I’d decided to give up the romantic/sexual side of my life because of what these stats revealed, not just about online dating but about what I’d experienced in my real, BW, dating life.
It’s also why I state that I’m currently with the LAST romantic/sexual partner of my life. I’m also over 40 and will NOT be subjecting myself to the dating market ever again. This just confirms the decision I made was a sound one.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 2:53 am ¶
Stuck wrote:
Okay, so I’m a young woman of the least-desirable racial category and my question is…how do I go about having self-esteem? No, really. Not a rhetorical question. I honestly need to know. I mean, I know I’m a great person and I feel pretty good about myself in most situations. But human interaction just happens to be kind of important to my emotional well-being. And the need for companionship and physical intimacy are also very important aspects of what makes me tick. So do i just like…get a dog? I mean..The probability of me forming fun, fulfilling, safe relationships now or ever is lowered cuz of racism. That sux. But ya know, whatever, it is what it is and no one owes it to me to be my personal cuddle buddy. And I can accept that family, friends, community service, hobbies and whatnot are all HUGE sources of happiness and fulfillment. But still, for me, intimacy is also really important and I don’t see a way to just ignore that? And I’m hetero so that kinda narrows things down some more…
I don’t know, I’m probably being a huge Debbie Downer, but I’m just really looking for something constructive I can do with this information. Because every time I read one of these articles (or just walk around outside) it makes it just *that* much harder to maintain hope in humanity.
Mod Note – How to have self-esteem? Remember that there are critiques of social structures but they do not always play out that way in real life. Remember that even though society is skewed to value whiteness over all else, there are still many, many people that find you attractive. Be open to new people and new experiences. Remember that many times, our greatest stumbling block is ourselves. And finally, remember that while it is nice to have lots of options, most people are really just looking for one person. – LDP
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 3:00 am ¶
RCHOUDH wrote:
I think along with rejecting someone of another race based on shallow physical characteristics, I find people rejecting/accepting someone different from them based on cultural (mis)perceptions. Like the reason some white men like Asian women is because of their (mis)perceived notion of these women being ‘quiet’ and ’subservient’ due to their “culture” (even if they grew up in the West). Or women rejecting/accepting Latino men based on their (mis)perceived notion of such men coming from a “machismo” culture.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 8:30 am ¶
Betty Chambers wrote:
Aside from the fact that women don’t respond to any man as much as men do, I, as a black woman, don’t see much of that study to get worked up about.
I’ve never heard of OKcupid, but their blogger declaring their users to be progressive and younger, as if it moderates their racism/sexism, is utter nonsense. It doesn’t mean squat. White men who are interested in me are always older, and not the least bit progressive or liberal, which I don’t mind.
The real world is the best place to find real men, because you see exactly what you are dealing with. I’ve dated too many white / Indian / Other guys to count, and the one thing they all have in common is that none of them can tell the truth.
This deliberate angst and viewpoint of “it sucks to be you, black woman” that OKCupid, and I dare say Racialicious, constantly points at us is irritating. We already know this society is racist/sexist against us. He’s not citing anything new.
White males weren’t eager to respond to white women either. Maybe these online guys are simply searching for the most “exotic” woman. Black women don’t fit that bill; we should be relieved.
I do, however, encourage black women to travel. There are men of many races that really, really do like us. Don’t bother worrying yourself over what the American white male, and his like minded brethren, wants for “dinner.”
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 11:08 am ¶
Olivia wrote:
@tj(post.29); Touche!
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 12:01 pm ¶
refresh_daemon wrote:
@Sonic(30):
The problem with the analogy is that it links having sex with one’s attitudes regarding race/sexuality. But in the real world, there are plenty of men who are homophobic that have sex with men. Some of them are closeted gay men, some of them are men in the prison system, and I’m sure a number of the rapes that happen as a part of war crimes might fit this bill as well. Likewise, a person can be fully racist and still have sex with a person that their racism extends towards–many slavemasters had sex with their slaves, would you say that they weren’t racist because they did? It’s a false analogy because it’s linking two unrelated phenomena.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 1:23 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:
Dammit!!! I so wanted to do this analysis after my short lived adventure with online dating ::cough match.com cough::
I think most POC who’ve been on any of the larger online dating sites know that race plays a factor in how they’re approached and who they can approach. OKC’s analysis just brings it to light. I would have loved to compare the black male responses to black women on OKC with a website that caters specifically to black people (yes I know the latter is a slightly different pool but it would be interesting to tease out the actual numbers of black folks on either site as well as their expectations of dating on each site).
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 2:02 pm ¶
grungemarilyn wrote:
I wonder how these stats would play out among the glbt crowd. That is to say, would race preference change if the question were referring to partnering with someone of one’s own gender who has a different racial background?
(I’ve heard, anecdotally, that there are certain group-wide prefs among gay males, but I don’t know about other groups).
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 2:24 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“Why would you be upset that someone would exclude you as a potential partner based on your race?”
Because if most people exclude you, it becomes difficult to do things that other people find important in their lives, like marrying/getting laid/dating. If it wasn’t so ubiquitous and one sided, people wouldn’t have that much of a problem with it.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 2:40 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:
It would be very interesting to see what the queer stats are…
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 4:31 pm ¶
Melanie wrote:
Am i one of the few black women, that even after reading that i am supposedly undesirable, and on the bottom of some “totem pole” of beayty, just don’t believe it and don’t put much stock into it? I don’t know what it is, maybe i’m just *lucky*, but none of this stuff being cited as truth has ever, ever applied to me.
Then again, i’m one of those people that looks at the positive side of EVERYTHING. Yeah, many guys don’t like black women for stereotypical reasons, but many guys DO want black women. Instead of focusing on the ones that don’t want you and playing the “oh, woe is me, i’m black, thus i will die alone”, why not focus on the ones that DO want you? Go out, smile and have fun! I do many times, and guys are always very receptive to me. I don’t know if it’s an age thing (i’m 19), a country thing (i’m Canadian), or if it’s just my outlook on life, but i have never once in my life felt “undesirable” as a black women..
Am i alone in my feelings? It sure feels like i am, lol.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 5:30 pm ¶
Melanie wrote:
Please ignore all the grammar and spelling mistakes, i was typing this all very, very fast!
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 5:31 pm ¶
Mrs. R. wrote:
I agree with the posters here that state that more conservative White men are more likely to SERIOUSLY date and marry Black women than their liberal/”progressive” brethren. I see that example in my husband’s family. His brother is a hippy and he is more conservative. My husband is not a right-winger or a Republican, but he is old-fashioned in some thoughts and ideas, like he believes in chivalry (no, he does not see women as overgrown children). He believes in giving a woman his seat, holding doors and pulling out chairs. Anyway, Mr. R. has married twice BOTH times to Black women.
His brother has married three times all three to weirdo, lefty or granola-esque White women. I believe, for all his lefty discourse, his brother would never seriously date a Black woman unless she were exceptional as hell, a veritable Black goddess (meanwhile he’ll show up as, well, him). He may f*ck one to get his “Black experience.” And we live in an area with plenty of Black people so it’s not like he can’t run into any sistas. Why can his brother, my husband, find not just one but TWO Black women suitable for marriage but he couldn’t?
Things that make ya go, “Hmmmmmmm!”
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 5:43 pm ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:
@Melanie you make a good point. I have no idea what like is like in Canada. Never been there, but I would suspect age might have something to do with it.
In my late teen, early 20’s I had no problems getting dates, and rarely felt this “bottom of the totem pole” phenomenon. And I just knew I would never be “one of THOSE black” women writing all the books, on talk shows, and sitting at home on weekends lamenting my lonely life.
However, it all seemed to change once I was past my mid 20’s…admittedly I was NEVER in a rush to get married and turned down some proposals…but I also thought those would not be my last opportunities.
Since then I have gone years without a date and I am the stereotypical black woman supposedly black or other men want–i.e. attractive, thin, light skinned, long hair, etc..and I am by no means saying that should be why men want me…just saying the stereotype is if you are a certain type…those rules won’t apply to you in the dating game.
My roomate, in her 30’s says she noticed the decline about the same time. She’s also quite an attractive woman who is very outgoing with a lot of hobbies, but still can’t get a date.
And even at I have often wondered if the plight of a lot of black women is more about being single in the WRONG age range, more so than just being black, per se and are more a victim of age related sexism than racism.
Who knows, maybe I am just a lousy person, LOL! That said, your positive attitude surely serves you well.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 7:37 pm ¶
DMoon wrote:
Oh yeah, and its obvious that Black women are continuously being targeted in these ’studies’ to attempt to assassinate their image publicly. In the past year, how many ’studies’ have come out telling us the same thing, that nobody likes Black women, in different ways?? Notice how they’re publicizing it EVERYWHERE so that Black women will eventually have no choice but to feel self conscious about being a Black woman? Even when its a Black woman who hasn’t had any problems whatsoever getting men to want her in her personal life she will eventually have no choice but to feel self conscious and inferior in her dealings with men because of the constant hammering in that nobody desires the group she belongs to? Black women are becoming the media’s punching bag and easy target.
Notice how Indian and Black men have the lowest rates of responses but they cued in on Black women? Its because they know to attack a woman’s desirability in this society is one of the best targets you have if you want to tear her and her race down. At this point, they are doing it to Black women as far as desirability the way they have been doing it to Black men as far as trying to publicly label us criminals and deadbeats. People like the guy who did this research are actively trying to make Black women seem undesirable to races to further promote white superiority (because who is the furthest from whites women? black women of course).
I believe that posters has some GREAT points.
Maybe these online guys are simply searching for the most “exotic” woman. Black women don’t fit that bill; we should be relieved.
I do, however, encourage black women to travel. There are men of many races that really, really do like us. Don’t bother worrying yourself over what the American white male, and his like minded brethren, wants for “dinner.”
Another excellent point. I have heard too many ancedotal stories from regular Black women when they traveled outside the racist confines of America that a lot of the women were literally shocked at the attention. And it wasn’t the –”ooha abLack woman, she must be a prostitute–or maybe I can con her into getting me a green card” scenario. These were honeset and genuine interest in a lot of European men, compared to a lot of American White men who would dismiss them out of hand.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 8:00 pm ¶
passingby wrote:
I hope BW aren’t too discouraged by this data. In my experience of a few years on the site OkC is a very confusing, downright mindboggling corner of the internets. As dating goes it’s an exercise in futility and humility, as entertainment in the wee hours it’s hilarity — if you find creepiness funny. No matter what a woman’s profile is like (I’ve experimented along the years), it seems the good old inbox will be mostly filled by weird and inappropriate one-liners from trolls of different variety.
I’m a white woman, relatively cute I guess since I get a lot of high ratings in QuickMatch. Every once in a while I get a nice message from someone whose profile looks decent. I always respond to these messages, excitedly even. I can’t tell for the life of me why, but the sad fact is I always get “the fade” from these guys. No matter the race, they all express interest only to soon fall into radio silence. That is quite the self-esteem decreaser. So, I don’t know what the deal is, but I wouldn’t advise taking this particular site very seriously. My experiences from other sites and real life don’t repeat this strange OkC pattern.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 9:27 pm ¶
Emekan wrote:
I’m on OK Cupid, too…I wasn’t surprised by the numbers.
I’ve had an interesting experience with it so far. I get a high volume of guys visiting my profile, and 95% of the guys looking are -white.- When I first noticed, I nearly fell out of my chair. What? White guys find me attractive?…For REAL?
…But, despite this, out of 20 guys who visit my page, only one will message me. That may or may not have something to do with me personally, especially because I’m atheist and that turns a LOT of guys off. However! Of those guys that do message me…again…95% of them are white.
It’s not like I’m light-skinned, which is more socially “appealing” apparently, so I don’t know why my experience is different from other black women who have posted here.
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 9:39 pm ¶
mmeetoilenoir lurktastique wrote:
No, Melanie, you’re not alone. I’m 31 and think the same way.
I believe, sometimes, that I live in a magic bubble. If I want a date, I can go out and get one. I like to say that I’ve dated the UN, lol. I have few problems on dating sites; although I’m ultra-picky and seldom write to guys, I do get some guys that write to me. Not scads, but that’s because my profile weeds out most of them
I consider myself honored to be Black, personally. It’s not some affliction, like many women seem to think it is. The moment that a woman resorts to saying, “Oh, yeah, I know that people hate me because I’m Black,” they’ve said to the world, “Yes. I accept this particular role that you’ve written for me. I’ll live it, react to it, and play it out for you. I’ll be beleaguered, downtrodden, and detested.”
One poster said that a guy vanished the moment he saw her pic, and OMG it had to be because she was Black. Did he say that? I’ll bet not, but that was the answer you cast on his vanishing. You could have been too heavy, too skinny, not dark enough (yeah, it happens), hair too straight (my guy likes my hair more natural), dressed in the same shirt as his ex, etc. You have NO idea, but you choose to use your race to make yourself a victim. Never mind that vanishing acts are very, very common with ALL races on the Internons.
I’m seeing that misery loves company, especially on the ‘Net. Echo chambers are insidious things. Trust me, more Black women are like you than not, Miss Melanie. Enjoy your joy, because many of us love ourselves, and owe no one anything!
PS – Latoya, your Jez posts are the best on the site. I hope they keep you
Posted 10 Oct 2009 at 11:07 pm ¶
MoeHailstone wrote:
LOL, first off most self respecting black men wouldnt even delve into online dating. Why? For what reason?? Online dating is a province for whites, asians, and latinos where there are no benefits to anyone black going on those sites whatsoever. First of all the numbers are like the census…wrong and skewed!!
Those that really go online to date are white collar individuals and not those of the blue collar variety where alot of ethnic men reside. Thre are alot of non metrosexual, white-collar men that are out in the world and you just have to put down your dumbass cellphones, blackberrys, I-Pods and start gettin’ into conversations with folks. Those that are online can hide behind they’re prejudices and anonymity of cyberspace because they feel safe to even on dating sites. Why open yourself up to a rejection you know is already there?? Why not be proactive and meet folks the old fashioned way….out in society and decide where and when to interact? Some folks may have to get out of the “he’s gotta speak first” mentality and take the bull by the horns in the same way you did your career, education etc…
Next is keep this in mind, LOL…. Online dating is a wish list of what those, who don’t have anyone, wishes they were with….not what necessarily they can attract. Some are there because they are serial daters…so dont feel rejection…Go out in the real world and start some conversations and get in the real game and leave internet dating to the province of those that won’t admit to wanting to be around blacks anyway. All areas need not be integrated…some areas that are just shit..let others have.
Thats my take…
Moe
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 12:28 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
****MOD NOTE*****
Fuck, I hate talking about dating. I’m about to delete about 15 comments.
1. Do not use this as an excuse to start playing the Oppression Olympics. This data was presented because it is rare that a major online dating site would actually openly offer this type of data, and it plays into existing conversations on the site. Comments that start “see, oh you xxx think you have it bad, look at us yyys” will be deleted. If you have an observation to make, make it, you don’t need to take down someone else’s experience to make your points stronger.
2. We’ve discussed preferences vs. fetishes before. We’ve discussed interracial dating before. And as we have stated previously, dating and sex are not immune from racist intent/activity.
3. Overly personalizing this data is a mistake. And that goes both ways. If this data is illuminating to your past history, fine, but it is not the be all-end all. Further , if this is not indicative of your personal experience, that is fine. However, it does not mean that there is not widespread racism in dating standards.
4. Stop generalizing.
5. To all those who have avoided these traps, thank you.
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 9:27 am ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“One poster said that a guy vanished the moment he saw her pic, and OMG it had to be because she was Black. Did he say that?”
I don’t know about her, but it happens. I’ve had two guys vanish immediately after I told them I was black. Immediately. Saying that your experiences are different is one thing… claiming that a complete stranger isn’t telling the truth/evaluating their own experiences correctly is another entirely.
“It would be very interesting to see what the queer stats are…”
I also don’t appreciate the general dismissal that GLBTs who want the same type of data have recieved in the OKC comments section for this series of posts.
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 12:06 pm ¶
Stuck wrote:
Latoya, I get your point about not taking this stuff personally. And I know that no one *should* let this stuff affect them, but what if you don’t really know instinctively how to do that? I mean, I think I’m attractive and smart– racist perceptions don’t dominate my self-image. But it still makes me so sad that this type of bias is so pervasive– especially when I notice how it subconsciously affects me, my friends, the kids I volunteer with…
Maybe it’s just my personality, I dunno.. but I really can’t positive-think my way out of that awareness. It’s reality and it really does effect people’s emotional well-being and I’m just trying to figure out a way to counteract it.
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 9:55 pm ¶
Katie wrote:
I understand the commenters that advise pursuing foreign-born or foreign men instead, but it seems like a bit of privilege to assume that everyone has the means to travel outside the country.
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 11:00 pm ¶
CatherineM wrote:
This made me sad. However, as a Hispanic woman I have mainly dated White men. It wasn’t because they were my main preference, I have really liked Hispanic men but none have ever wanted to date me. Why? Well, I asked a few of them and they all answered me exactly the same, that as a woman I was not “hispanic” enough. Not because of my my skin color or hair, but because I am tall, slender and am small breasted with only average-sized booty. These men actually told me this. Educated, successful hispanic men told me this…So now I am married to a white man… a man that loves me for me and not because of my breast size. Oh well, Latino men, you had your chance.
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 11:45 pm ¶
CatherineM wrote:
I apologize for the grammatical errors.
Posted 11 Oct 2009 at 11:49 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“I understand the commenters that advise pursuing foreign-born or foreign men instead, but it seems like a bit of privilege to assume that everyone has the means to travel outside the country.”
Exactly. And every time the inherent infeasibility/low likelihood of this has been broached, it’s met with chirpy platitudes, instead of real conversation about what presenting a frankly bleak-sounding “option” like this really says about American (hell, North American, because it’s always Europe and never Canada) men, black American women, and the perceived class of black women who are concerned about marriage and worthy of receiving solutions.
Also, was anyone else surprised by the Indian male thing? I thought that because of the physical differences between people of S. Asian and E. Asian descent, their results would be different. That, and while Indian nerd stereotypes are definitely out there, they don’t seem to be as thoroughly ingrained and highly trafficked in as stereotypes of the undesirable Asian male are.
Posted 12 Oct 2009 at 10:49 am ¶
LexisB wrote:
Hi,
I hate to sound cruel and shrewish, but as a black woman, I just had a wake up call. In a way, it’s a really good think that I don’t have to sit up at night wondering if a man wants to screw me.
Let’s face it: any study out there will tell you that marriage benefits a man way more than a woman. In fact, women who do not marry but who invest their time and energies into building other kinds of bonds often fare better in terms of their health and emotional well-being than married women. It’s hard to give up the illusion that women need men to be happy, and lord knows I have spent sleepless nights feeling the same way. But what does a belief like this get us? Basically, it makes us more desperate as a group, and then we are more likely to give in to the unfair demands of men just to be married or stay in relationships. This is rampant in relationships today, especially for black females.
Women spend an inordinate amount of time, money and energy trying to perfect themselves, and this is women of all races, to try to attract a mate and also provide for offspring — because the male standard is now so high that we are considered gold diggers unless we can bring both unconditional love AND financial means to the table. Men seem content to develop themselves as they see fit, for the sake of personal satisfaction, and look for a women who complements and accepts them as is. And what do women get for all their hard work and sacrifice?
In the link below, there is a statistic that women are more likely to be murdered while married, and we all know that most murdered women are killed by their significant other, not a stranger.
Love is wonderful, but I see A LOT of women in marriages and committed partnerships who are really put upon and taken for granted by their men and children — at the very least. It’s really not a romantic ideal, marriage and children. It’s an interesting and rewarding part of life, but not all of life. Women in the most modern Western societies are still expected to sacrifice everything to their families and their men. There is very little awareness of just how lopsided the male/female power dynamic is. I think some black women are intimidating because we are more likely to point this out, and to actually make the effort to live comfortably alone rather than totally submit to male domination.
I think that being black, and feeling “outside” of the mainstream approach to love for so many reasons including racism, allows me, and many other black women, to be a little detached about romance, so that we don’t get brainwashed into love situations that are overwhelmingly beneficial to men. This can be lonely (and sexually frustrating), but there is a lot of freedom in it.
Hopefully more women will wake up and see that partnering in traditional relationships is not the end all/be all. They maybe the white men who think they are all that will develop some sensitivity to others, because they will have to try harder with all women. When women will finally realize that they do not need men, and maybe at times are better off without men, men may step up. Sometimes I think men create these studies to keep women living erroneously in fear.
The reality is that a woman’s sincere love is a gift. Marriage is a serious, stressful commitment, and men are more often the beneficiaries. Love is not a game to be played.
http://www.thirdage.com/marriage/is-marriage-good-or-bad-for-you
Posted 13 Oct 2009 at 4:24 pm ¶
Joe wrote:
This is interesting data, and in the aggregate I think it’ll hold true — but what I think we’re failing to take into account here when we discuss any *individual* dyad is the extent to which online dating just isn’t a representative sample of overall dating patterns, and the extent to which OKC isn’t necessarily representative of online dating as a whole.
Again, I’m not minimizing the results or claiming that in the real world the impact of race is lessened; if anything, the real-world impact of race is even greater! Rather, I’m saying that the specific, peculiar circumstances of any given racial pairing may not be reflected accurately at all in these numbers.
As for the perennial black female example, since I’m tossing it out there: I’ve met many, many American men of all races who’d be comfortable, even eager, to date a black female, but feel that they don’t have a chance because black females will always ‘prefer’ black males. Black females I’ve talked to tend to feel that other races don’t want them and so why bother trying, but when pressed, even if their options were equal they’ve overwhelmingly stated a strong preference for black men.
I don’t think that central issue — a strong aggregate preference by black women for black men that isn’t matched by a black male preference for black women — is really reflected in the OKC numbers.
Posted 14 Oct 2009 at 4:10 am ¶
Brenda wrote:
What I found interesting was the survey above. From what I gathered, no ethnicity, male or female, would prefer to date someone of their own ethnic/racial background as opposed to dating someone different. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a good thing of a bad thing. It probably has a lot to do with media, stereotypes or that “one person” who messed it up for all of them.
Posted 15 Oct 2009 at 6:17 pm ¶
Antonio Settles wrote:
Oh yeah,lest I forget: in regards to the white and white-lite preferences in Latino media,many props to Mimi Valdez-Ryan over at Latina magazine for breaking up that status quo and cleaning up that magazine’s act.Maybe one day she will have an industry wide affect and beyond.Because Latinos/Hispanics of African descent need to be seen,heard,and represented too.And WE Americans,especially African-Americans need to be educated,because most of us don’t even know that many Latinos/Hispanics are descendants of the African Diaspora,just like us:many of us don’t even know that Latinos of African descent exist,and we can be lookin’ right at them!We think “Oh,they’re just dark.
Posted 16 Oct 2009 at 9:40 am ¶
AnonymousArab wrote:
Three things I want to point out before getting to my own experience:
1. To the person who wants thinks they can’t “positive-think” their way out of this- GOOD FOR YOU.
Seriously, I’m not being sarcastic. I sick and tired or people always trying to “look on the bright side” of every issue. It diminishes the fact that we have a problem that should addressed, considered, or at least kept in mind. If it’s not bugging people, it’s not motivating them to change anything.
On a personal level, it doesn’t mean you should give up or become embittered, even if there is no silver lining. It is something to be overcome, not dismissed, in the pursuit of happiness. Be upset about it, but don’t let that narrow discontent poison everything else.
2. The second point I feel needs to be made is that individuals are not statistics and vice-versa. Claiming that a rejection was based on race alone is as foolish as claiming that a rejection was based on anything but race. Racism can be unconscious, and even if we’ve acquired the ability to read minds, it’s better to give people the benefit of the doubt so long as it is not a clear case of racism.
3. LexisB,
YOU may not need a long standing intimate connection with a man in the form of a marital commitment to be happy. But, you can’t set a standard for what other women would want and need anymore than I can. If women in general or of color have trouble getting ANYTHING they desire (I don’t care if it’s so much as a piece of lint) that people of privilege can have without as much trouble, the solution is not to tell them they don’t need it.
Criticizing the troubles with the marriage dynamic is one thing. However, taking that to a conclusion that it’s somehow a betrayal of self to desire it is an overreaction. Mainstream education and schooling for blacks was sub-standard not too long ago. The solution wasn’t the abolition of schools, but reform of the then-current dynamic undermining their purpose. Abandoning mainstream education would be abandoning the wrong institution. By all means- abandon the institution of patriarchy, abandon that of racism, abandon that of privilege, and those other institutions that have been diseased by these things will become much healthier.
—————-
On a personal note. I’m biracial, Middle-Eastern and Hispanic. For a variety of reasons I’m not going to go into involving the dynamics of growing up biracial, I present myself as mostly Middle Eastern. Part of it is the linguistic character of my given name that forces me to acknowledge my Middle Eastern heritage first.
One dynamic I’m faced with are stereotypes about my ethnic group’s supposed inherent extreme misogyny. It is slightly funny to see some people fish delicately for that information after a time while others plow through with a clarifying question obliviously.
Exoticism is not a trait I’ve seen others perceive in me, maybe because I have no accent, or maybe I’m just oblivious to it. I’m not very charismatic and it’s possible I just miss the cues that would indicate that. I do know that it is being applied to Arab women. Talking to white men, I would say there is a bit of a interest among a number of white males motivated by a certain perception of novelty. This is usually tied to a forbidden fruit aspect as well since they seem to particularly desire women who wear the headscarf.
I am surprised at how common it has become. I have had to develop a standard response to comments that “Arab women are hot”. It involves mentioning the weather over in Arabia, and it’s kind of lame. I’m working on it.
Posted 17 Oct 2009 at 1:23 pm ¶
decaffeinated wrote:
From another perspective, if I were to have children with a non-Native man, my children would not be eligible to be enrolled in my tribe because their total Native blood quantum would be too low (I am mixed). Heck, even if I had kids with an Indigenous man from Canada or Central or South America–racially “Indian”–they would not count as legally Indian in the U.S., so my kids still could not be enrolled.
So…do I prefer to date Native men from the U.S.? Sure. Am I a racist? No. I just want my children to be recognized as having the same tribal citizenship I do.
I think it sucks that Native nations cannot naturalize citizens and that many adhere to blood quantum rules. No other nations work this way.
Posted 19 Oct 2009 at 8:18 pm ¶