Of OKCupid and Denials of Racism

by Guest Contributor (and frequent commenter) J Chang

My friend Tasha linked up a blog post on the dating site OKCupid analyzing how race interacts with whether people choose to reply to messages and while it wasn’t surprising that there is a huge disparity in how certain races are regarded in terms of the dating pool, what was (unsurprisingly at this point) interesting was how vocally all the commenters are responding to the very obvious data. Essentially, there is a huge fear on the part of most of the commenters about being labeled a racist, despite that the blog didn’t single out anyone as a racist. I left one comment on the blog, which will no doubt also be reacted to, but I won’t care enough to read the reaction:

“The whole matter of preferences is not necessarily racism, but can be, if you are judging what a person is like by their race and not by their actual character/appearance. However, no matter how innocent any individual preference is, if you look at the way that preference twists and turns over a large group, as we see in this study, racism clearly exists at the systemic level. Regardless of whether or not any person’s preference is racist, on an individual level, the fact of the matter remains that men (as a group) find black women less attractive than other women and that women (as a group) find white men more attractive than other men. While each individual preference might just be aesthetic, it points to a system wide conditioning of the sample group to have racial bias. Your preference might not be racist in itself, but the standards of beauty/attractiveness in the society that influences and shapes your own personal aesthetic preferences are most certainly racist. If they weren’t, we’d end up with the all yellow grid that we get with zodiac signs.”

On a greater note, I think the huge denial response, which has a lot in common with how some people try to minimize or explain away racism, strongly reflects the tremendous fear that people have of being called racist. But also, that racism itself presents a picture of an unjust society, where the people who stand to benefit from racism, and their apologists, fear that they are unjustly in that place. Largely, the primary factor that I can see influencing this behavior, at its core, is pride, but secondly is the fear of losing power.

The first point is that people are afraid of being called racist. I think in today’s society, racism has become hyper-reviled, in a way that lying and cheating could only wish for. Why is this? I think part of it has to do with the fact that people have an unswerving need to see themselves as both good and just. Racist actions, stemming from the judging of a person before knowing anything about who they are, solely by their appearance, is an ignorant and unjust action. To most people, and reasonably, that is abhorrent. However, it’s also a rather natural reaction to judge things visually due to the way heuristics make life easier for us and having to consider every single person we encounter a unique individual requires a lot of time, effort and energy. Which may be one reason why in studies of college students living with people of different races or working with different races, we find stress rates much higher–because it takes time and effort to get to know someone who might seem different and adjust our attitudes accordingly. As human beings are typically inclined to follow the path of least resistance, racism is an unavoidable product. However, in order to maintain our egos, we have to see ourselves as just and good. Add that most people have a tendency towards racism and it takes active effort to overcome it, we run into the contradiction in ourselves. Since it takes more time and effort, as well as the admittance that we are buying into racism (and thus not “good” or “just”), it’s easier for people to rationalize their racism or minimize it, which some of the commenters on that post are doing. That way nothing has to change, we maintain our pride and only have to expend minimal effort.

That’s on an individual level. When we see denials of racism, even when it doesn’t involve us, we’re looking at an extension of the individual problem. Essentially, if our society is racist, it implicates us as racist, but what’s more, it also implies that some people are benefiting from racism at the cost of other people. Or, some people have an advantage just because they are a certain race. Acknowledging this to be true would mean that society is unjust. If you acknowledge that society is unjust, you also acknowledge that you benefited or were oppressed by this system. The oppressed often have no problem pointing to the injustices of the system. However, if you benefited, then you have to admit that, in part, some of where you are today was because it was easier for you to get there by no actual effort of your own. You were just born lucky. And we live in a society where the mythos of “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps” is embedded deep within us and so we want to believe that we all entirely and exclusive earn what we have or are given what we have at no expense to another.

We, if we stand to be the beneficiaries of injustice, fear the accusation of unjust society because it says that we didn’t entirely earn it ourselves, but built it upon the backs of others.

All the evidence in the world points to the fact that we live in an unjust society. I’m not in my cushy office job just because I worked hard for it. I was born lucky, into the right neighborhood, the right family, the right race, the right sex, and the right social class. That doesn’t diminish that I actually did work hard, but it means that my family had the money, through no effort of my own, to live in the neighborhood zoned to a decent school, to pay for my exams and exam tutorials, to get me to college and so forth. Were I born differently, I might be unable to be where I am today.

What does this have to do with dating? It means that because of my race, and with the exception of wonderfully open black women, I have less of a chance at first impression with women than white men through no fault of my own. And those very wonderfully open black women, they get the shaft from everyone. Is this just? No. Is this good? No. Is this factual? Yes.

So I guess the old saying is true, “All is fair in love and war.” Fortunately, racism and dating is self-selecting. I probably wouldn’t want to date the women that wouldn’t want to date me to begin with.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Reading on the Rails « thebibliophile Weblog on 09 Oct 2009 at 3:25 pm

    [...] is a discussion with data analyzing trends in on-line dating. J Chang’s great post “Of Ok Cupid And Denials of Racism” is a must read – and for me connects to the pieces I didn’t discuss in my post yesterday [...]

  2. links for 2009-10-10 « Fantasising Zombies on 10 Oct 2009 at 9:03 pm

    [...] Of OKCupid and Denials of Racism | Racialicious – the intersection of race and pop culture The question of racism- [...]

  3. are you a relationship racist? on 19 Oct 2009 at 1:23 am

    [...] usually good intentions, these conversations tend to hit a wall because most people, scared of being branded a racist, are loathe to publicly admit how much of a factor ra… feelings about dating and [...]

Comments

  1. Eva wrote:

    Thank you for posting this. This is very true. I’m a black woman and I find that men, black and white are a bit hesitant to respond to me; however, a lot of that probably has to do with my age.

    The truth is that it’s not fair. Life isn’t fair. I’ve seen both men and women get married to people who are nasty and awful, while nice people get the shaft.

  2. A. wrote:

    And what is so funny is that it seems that white people most of all think that they’re “Honestly good people” and that they just can’t be racist because they have a preference.

    Preference means prejudice to me. It is prejudging someone before you know them because of the color of their skin or certain types of features that they may have.

    Ultimately, my belief is that white people need to get over their egos and the “I just can’t stand being called racist” thing. Who gives a flying fuck about YOUR ego when I have to have thrown in my face all the time that because I’m a black woman, I’m not worthy in this society.

  3. Minotaar wrote:

    First sentence: “Welcome back, Dorks.” Love it. I’m really glad someone released this data.

  4. V wrote:

    Having actually done the OkCupid thing I was presented with the question about racial preferences, and I call shenanigans. There is no neutral/I don’t care option on the question! Granted I skipped the question because I really don’t care one way or the other, but I’m curious to know how many people put an answer because they thought they had to put one.
    As a gay white female I’m not responding to men white or not (though they still try). I’d be curious to know the breakout on the gay identified side. It seems as though my straight friends do have a preference and my gay friends do not.

  5. asdf wrote:

    A. wrote: “Preference means prejudice to me. It is prejudging someone before you know them because of the color of their skin or certain types of features that they may have.”

    (Sorry, I don’t know how to do italics. )

    I completely agree, and I find that almost every white person that I talk to about it thinks that that is a completely shocking concept. I don’t want to come off as some kind of apologist, but for most of the people I know, they believe that racism = KKK, Nazi skinheads, etc. and since 99.9% of everyone I’ve ever met finds that kind of blatant hate abhorrent, they can’t imagine that something like having a racial dating preference or stereotyping or laughing at “harmless” racial/ethnic jokes could be part of the same ugly animal (the “honestly good people” argument you mentioned above.). They hear words like “systemic racism” and think “segregation” and since that’s against the law now. . .it’s hard to explain that stuff to other white people sometimes because of that visceral gut reaction against being compared to people like the David Duke and the like, and sometimes I’m more gentle in explaining it than I want to be because I’m often coming up against a wall of denial if I just plain say “that’s racist!!!” instead of explaining why. Most of us, sadly, are not taught these things by our parents or in school, and so unless we are fortunate enough to grow up in a racially/ethnically diverse community, we live in the bubble of delusion that “white privilege” (a term I never even heard until I started reading this blog) builds, and hearing otherwise is like turning everything on its ear that we’ve grown up learning. I’m speaking as a person who grew up in a rural area and then moved to a suburban area near a small city, and I can see how much my eyes have been opened just by being around a much more diverse bunch of people, and especially by making close friends of different races. Thank you for this post–I will be saving it and using if for future reference, because I think it really explains things in a way that I think a lot of us (white people who really are anti-racist) don’t know how to articulate.

  6. Brooke wrote:

    @V: There is no neutral/I don’t care option on the question!

    Interesting…can you pick more than one option? Or are you forced to select only one? I am not a stats person, and obviously the answer that people give when forced to select one and only one says many things that we can analyze, but I wonder how the results would have changed if you could either be neutral or pick multiple answers.

  7. gibberishtwist wrote:

    “Preference means prejudice to me. It is prejudging someone before you know them because of the color of their skin or certain types of features that they may have. ”

    While I agree with you in spirit, I don’t think things are that simple. For instance, I prefer tall men; this doesn’t mean I make a point to avoid short/average-height men. I prefer vanilla ice cream; this doesn’t mean I exclude chocolate from my palate (Additionally, referencing chocolate vs. vanilla in this context amuses me).

    Everyone prejudges on any number on things (Race, sex, hair/skin/eye color, clothes, odor, hair style, shoes, whether they bike or walk, what kind of car they drive, etc etc etc whatever). It’s a fact of life. Some do it worse than others, and of course, everyone’s at least a little racist. And yea, I’ll bet a lot of people on dating sites do use race as a social/dating filter, but someone preferring a white person to a black person (or vice versa) isn’t inherently racist. Ideally, it comes down to what you find attractive.

    If their mental process goes along the lines of, “Oh, a black guy messaged me. I am now hesitant to respond, despite his being attractive, because I tend to not like how black men approach dating,” or something similar, then yea, that’s racist, and it’s prejudging in a harmful way. Forgive my rambling, but I’m not used to throwing my opinion out there.

  8. Seattle Slim wrote:

    ON POINT!

  9. mute wrote:

    @ gibberishtwist

    ” Ideally, it comes down to what you find attractive. ”

    I think that’s the entire point. What we find attractive is learned — largely through images and messages in our media. What we find unattractive is taught as well. When “preferences” skew so wildly in favor of a few groups and leave others so drastically ignored, what else are we supposed to call it? Natural?

  10. Montclair Mommy wrote:

    So timely for me because my husband and I were just talking about this last night! I kind of tend to agree with the “preferences = prejudices” school of thought but only when its RACIAL preferences. By saying that you “prefer” [insert race here] type of men/women you are assuming that the people in that racial group are uniform in some way (appearance, behavior, morals, etc)…which isn’t true at all. And when you say “I’m not attracted to [insert race here] men/women” you are assuming that because you know that person’s race, you know everything about them. Have you met all of the people of that race? We all know that race is a social construct that is never the less real because it has real life implications. But when it comes to appearance, family type, political beliefs, etc, there is so much difference between people within one “race” that its prejudiced and racist thinking to assume that they have something in common simply b/c they belong to that racial group.

    I think a preference re: height, weight, employment status (liking firefighters, lawyers, construction workers, artists, teachers), hair style, etc is very different. A tall man is a tall man. You either have long hair or you don’t. You’re not arbitrarily grouping people by saying that you find women that don’t wax their eyebrows more attractive. But you ARE when you say you prefer men that are white/Black/Asian/Latino. There is no set of racial characteristics. Each “racial group” is a very diverse group of INDIVIDUALS. So when you say you like Black/white/Asian women…what does that even mean? You’re kind of assuming they have something in common when they don’t necessarily have anything in common. Why assume that there aren’t people of a different race that would satisfy those same characteristics? That’s the problem I have with racial preferences.

  11. TierListE wrote:

    @ mute

    Thank you. I don’t think (the like 2 time I’ve delurked and asked this question, I’ll keep it honest) received any response about that one.

    If preferences are neutral and natural etc, you can’t help but infer that there are some races of people that are naturally more/less attractive because of how skewed the conclusions are.

    And since I believe there are no significantly more attractive males/females due to race, I have to believe there’s unnatural factors giving theses biases.

  12. GENQ10 wrote:

    @ Montclair Mommy
    preference in terms of height, weight, and hair type is no different than racial “preference” (i.e. prejudice). Why do you think that tall men, for example, are generally given so many societal advantages from employment opportunities, to paychecks? Why should tall necessarily equal attractive? There’s no reason for any of this, evolutionary sociology (i.e. eugenics in disguise) be damned. People choose their mates, to a large extent, to establish societal status. All those romantics/sentimentalists can go shove it.

  13. Franki wrote:

    @GENQ10 (#12)

    Um, no.

    People have not been systematically oppressed, killed, and considered sub-human because of their height. While internalized prejudice towards short people definitely exists and shows itself in society, it is quite different from racial prejudice.

  14. Montclair Mommy wrote:

    @GENQ10…I disagree. I think its very different. Hmmm…maybe most people do chose their mates for status. And think its unfair that tall supposedly = attractive. But I understand that some people, for example, prefer a man/woman that is taller than they are or prefer a man with short hair versus long hair. I think those things are the types of things where a person either has those characteristics or they don’t. But a racial preference assumes that all the people in that group have the same characteristics…and they don’t. I agree that having a preference in those areas is short sighted…because you never know who you will meet and connect with…but I don’t think its prejudice. So do you think people shouldn’t pay any attention to attraction? Or are you just saying that you think that the very things that we find attractive are based on societal prejudices? I agree with the second statement. We are programed to find certain things attractive, definitely. Luckily, some people still manage to chose mates based on personality and their inner qualities. We should strive for that. But until then, I think that preferences will exist. But racial preferences don’t make any sense, b/c they are built on assumptions about the person’s appearance, background, etc. based on their race.

  15. Phil Deeze wrote:

    I don’t think “preference” automatically means prejudiced; however, if a person automatically de-selects someone based on skin color (just naming one criteria) and the stereotypes associated with that color? That’s on the person making the selection. And that door swings both ways, certainly.

    I have a white friend who introduced me to a white friend of hers. Nice lady. Attractive. We were out after work having drinks and the lady kept going on and on about how nice I was and that, in the past, she’d dated black men before and they weren’t as (insert positive trait not normally associated with black men) as I was. I felt very uncomfortable. I didn’t let on. I was seething.

    So when that lady left, I asked my friend: “W.T.F.?” She said she didn’t have an issue with how condescending the other lady was. I told her that I don’t hold her responsible for what other white folks do nor would I ever mention to ANY person, regardless of race, “Gee, So-and-So, you’re much nicer than most Asians/whites/Jamaicans/French that I’ve met before……”

    The bartender hears the conversation, and he, a white guy, walks over and tells my friend “Sorry to intrude, but couldn’t help but hear. Dude is right: how is someone going to be introduced to a friend of a friend and speak to them that way? I heard the whole tangent she went on. Ick. Oh, by the way, Dude, your drinks are on the house.”

    Sometimes in social situations when blacks aren’t even a threat, you’re still in danger of being slighted. Even by someone with nothing to fear from you.

  16. GENQ10 wrote:

    @franki.
    I never said they weren’t and I know it is, no need to be condescending. I was merely pointing out that prejudice to physical characteristics like height and weight are also prejudices and need to be acknowledged as such, not as “preferences”.

  17. Montclair Mommy wrote:

    @GENQ10…so when you date do you just consider the inner person? If so, I applaud you. I’d like to think that, as I got older, I did the same. Not so sure about my younger days, however. Do you think its ever okay to say “I prefer men with curly hair” or something like that? Or (perhaps more controversial) “I prefer to date a woman with higher education”? I’m just wondering about your thoughts on this because you seem to be a purist when it comes to matters of dating…

  18. Lainad wrote:

    This is one of those things that you know is unfortunate (but right) in your mind, yet you are too afraid to talk to your friends about it.

    I don’t think I want to get married, but I would like to get laid every now and then.

    This shit depresses the hell out of me. espcially as my 40th is lurking around the corner. So on top of being a woman and black and the age I am, does this mean I am totally screwed? All of my black, beautiful, intelligent, successful, artistic friends are all single.

    I’m not quite willing to throw it all in, but this is why I don’t do the online dating thing. I know what is out there; but this post just solidified it.

    On a not-so-funny note, while I have dated more white or non/black men in my life than black men, I encounted a brother today who made me even more depressed. I was trying to get my Blackberry fixed and he, being the serviceperson, was so hostile to me that I seriously wanted to slit his throat.

    While this is just one example out of the many encounters I have had with black men, it really did make me think about this post and wonder, do the brothers even want us?

    This dude ( he could have been a model) was really nice and accomodating to the white girl in front of me, but he literally sneered when I asked him (nicely) a question. As a serviceperson. I wasn’t trying to come on to him, I just wanted my frigging phone fixed, but the way he treated me, man – my blood went cold.

    So while I found this post really depressing, I just have to add that the interdynamics ( most often in Canada) are so truly fucked up it makes me wonder if me and my friends will eternally be laid-less.

  19. Jacobus wrote:

    @Montclair Mommy

    “A tall man is a tall man.”

    Could you explain this statement? When exactly is a man “tall”, and how important is your own height when deciding this?

  20. GSM wrote:

    I have found in my online dating experience, that there are man many men who will define their political stance as ‘liberal,’and are definately open to dating every race with the exception of Black. I have seen this more times than I can remember, especially since moving to the West Coast, to the extent that I now find it amusing. I truly wish Match.com would simply create a ‘no-blacks’ preference just to get it over with.
    On the pos tip, I have begun to meet some really wonderful Asian men, who are just as sexy and bad as the rest. I have sort of found an unspoken kinship in that we are the ‘forgotten’ ones on the lovenet…what with the notions that one is completely sexless, and the other is sexstarved, like a Reese’s cup who knew till you put em’ together!
    All the haters can have each other, I am looking for good sex, good talk, and someone who wants to watch 30 Rock and laugh while drinking a big glass of wine, colour should be ‘COOL’…

  21. TierListE wrote:

    You know, I think asking how many preferences a person has that is not influenced by societal standards/social status is like asking how much sound one hand clapping makes. I think very little of what a person finds physically attractive has no environmental influence (ie finding people attractive that resemble your previous SO/crush).

    I believe all nature can possibly account for is physical health and ability to bear children. Everything else is given to you by your society. Humanity traded off the ability to stockpile complex instinctual behavior with the ability to learn.

  22. GENQ10 wrote:

    @ Montclaire Mommy
    I don’t think anyone is a “purist”, but whenever I find myself attracted to someone, I always try to ask “why?” “what is it about this person?”. Ditto for when I find someone unattractive. I would want someone to give me a fair chance so I try really hard to practice what I preach. I also believe that the personal is always political; not one of us was raised in a vaccuum.

  23. thebibliophile wrote:

    As an identifiably differently-abled womyn of color I have to say this stuff makes me so depressed. I appreciate the research and data – for sure. I love reading the posts and responses. It’s a lot to think about – desire like race being socially constructed. It also makes me feel hopeless. the margins which I inhabit – smart, differently-abled, womyn of color are perceived as so unnormative that folks that will date interracially often draw the line at disability.
    I cannot mention the times when I’ve been given counsel on how I fix myself – and the ways in which I have internalized and separated myself – cripples after all can’t be sexy or attractive. Then you get folks with ugly fetishes, a desire to be with someone they think society will perceive as less attractive – and that’s a whole other ball game.

    It makes me think about the anger that I feel as a womyn of color – the repititious message of being ugly, not good enough, even if the face of sane contradictions. How long can any group stand to be treated/perceived in this way? So painful….

    Did anyone see Dr. Alex Benzer’s piece on why it’s hard for smart people to date. I wrote about it over on my blog (www.thebibliophile.wordpress.com) and think there are lots of interesting connections to race, the assumption of “smart” to exclude and the ideas of what make others attractive.

    Sigh….

  24. Franki wrote:

    @ GSM

    Co-sign on the Match.com thing. I’ve pretty much stopped checking the 5 members the site picks out for you on a daily basis because it’s such a slap in the face to open my inbox and see “hey this guy would be great for you if you weren’t black!”

  25. ashlynn wrote:

    This post could not have come at a better time. I’ve been talking to this guy, who is white, for abi, we’ve been sort of dancing around each other, I suppose, and once again, we kind of break off awkwardly. On my train ride home I once again had the wonderful experience of having every black man nearby stare at me at some point; I got every look from straight up disgust to outright leering at me. Once again I felt too uncomfortable to take down this guy’s number, feeling the disapproval kind of radiate off of the freaking windows, and now I go home and you guys get a Racialicious rant.

    As a Black woman, I feel like I do not belong to myself. I feel as if I’m supposed to respond(excitedly, at that), to every comment, lewd or otherwise, thrown at me on the street, because I am somehow tied to all Black men. I am wary of trying to make a connection with anyone else, because if I am able to initially get past the shutdown most non-black men give me, the thought of being someone’s fetish rings clear in my head. I get up in the morning, get dressed, go outside hoping okay, today will be a little different, but today is no different, and I come home and look at myself in the mirror and have to ask myself, “Am I even pretty? Why does no one else see the face that I see in the mirror before I leave? Or my personality? Why am I always left behind?”

  26. DreaD wrote:

    Ashlynn, as someone who gets those same looks from *some* Black men often, I feel you. At the end of the day we have the very hard job of freeing ourself from the projections, fears, ignorance of others. This is extremely hard given that human beings are connected and we obviously affect each other. I get upset/anxious when Black men (or white women, or whomever) give me and my white partner that look. But at the end of the day, I have no choice (for my own mental and emotional well-being) but to put that to the side and focus on myself and those I care about. It’s a daily task. I’m confident you won’t always feel left behind. Good luck with your potential boo.

  27. tj wrote:

    gibberishtwist: Yea, but wars were not fought over vanilla ice cream vs. strawberry. People were not enslaved because of their height. Race is a construct, a very REAL historical construct of our society. Though we know, biologically, race is NOT real. Spare me the analogies, they are far too simplistic for this point.

  28. A. wrote:

    Height and racial differences aren’t even close. People do take digs at short men. But it’s not automatically assumed that a short man is less than good looking based on his height alone. It is assumed that black women aren’t as good-looking or appealing BASED ON THEIR RACE ALONE. All kinds of awful assumptions are made about black women just because of the color of their skin, anywhere from “They’re more masculine/you better be well-endowed/she’s going to trap you by having kids/etc.”

    So yeah. This is why racial preference does automatically equal prejudice to me. As I said in another community, I could make the statement that good schools up until 1954 had a preference to teach white pupils.

  29. K.lo wrote:

    OMG Ashlynn. The thing about the mirror.

    As I type this I’m sitting in the couch in a white club (yes this is a drunk comment) where I’m absolutely invisible. There are people who can’t dance, who are ugly, who are overweight, and they all have people who want to engage them passively or actively, but I feel invisible.

    After the week that I’ve had, I don’t feel lne plying the happy go lucky Negro role.

    The statistics are one thing, but where do we go from here? No matter how much education, no matter how thin, no matter how many drinks ( ok a 50 year old woman occupying the wall justbgot pulled to the dance floor) I can down otbhoe well I can dance, I barely have a fighting chance (including among the men who share my ethnic make up) I can’t win.

  30. little mixed girl wrote:

    i find “preferences” and dating to be interesting.
    when it comes to minorities, depending on who you talk to, we are supposed to prefer our own group.

    however, i would argue that most people don’t know what they like.
    people like making lists of things they like, and within those lists they put things like “tall” or “brown eyes” or whatever.

    as you meet people, they’ll have personalities and features that you do or don’t like.

  31. RCHOUDH wrote:

    I’d just like to weigh in on the preference debate for a moment. I often hear some South Asians say that their light skin color preference is no different from American’s preference for thin over fat women. In other words why vilify just skin color preference and not preference for thinness? To that I say that both types of preferences within a person should be scrutinized in order to discover whether the person holding it is really personally preferential to it or whether he/she realizes that they’ve been socially conditioned to prefer it by societal standards. The same goes for race preference which can go beyond physical racial characteristics and include how capable people are to bridging cultural differences in order to make a relationship work with someone of a different background. I feel that the fact that people in any given society have an overwhelming preference for specific characteristics (light skin color in South Asia; thin white women in America) is dictated not so much by personal preferences as by preferences dictated by a given society.

  32. stella wrote:

    I’m reading the comments and I feel so heartbroken.

  33. Phil Deeze wrote:

    Ashlynn,
    You want invisible? Try being a black man at a black club and not look like Denzel Washington or Taye Diggs and ask a lady, respectfully, for a dance. Don’t grab her arm. Don’t push up in her face. And get called a name or declined in such a way that she can show everyone within earshot that she didn’t select you or that you’re undesirable to her.
    It’s one thing to be rude to a black guy that shows you no respect at a nightclub, but for every guy that grabs a lady’s arm as she walks by to get her attention, there’s a BUNCH of guys at the bar that shake their head thinking “Man, I’d never try that.” And there’s enough ladies that respond to when a guy grabs her arm that other cats keep trying it. Sort of the same way that infomercials flood the airwaves with crap that most people think nobody would want: SOMEONE keeps buying this stuff and the infomercials keep trying to sell hair in a can or the pocket fisherman.

  34. Rayofnonsunshine wrote:

    GSM I agree with you wholeheartedly. This year Iam making a conscious effort to date and meet quality men.I have ads on Match and Chemistry and nothing is more depressing than opening up a profile and seeing everything but black. If and when a man responds and I see that he has everything but black in his ad, I email and tell him why I take issue with his profile. Will this make a difference? I don’t know but I refuse to be someone’s date of last resort. Black women are screwed (and not in the good way)!

  35. GSM wrote:

    I discussed this with a friend, (married) who knew other women online dating, I was explaining my frustration about getting responses etc,. ( not really getting into the race thing) and she claimed her other gf’s were swamped with messages, and bombarded with offers etc., the other chick she claimed was not nearly as cute or interesting as I was so she did not understand this, well I said, she is WHITE, which was of course returned with a look of shock and awe….not racial, it’s factual…..
    I have found more ‘conservatives’ willing to date outside their race, a new twist that I have been exploring. I have found that very conservative men (religious, etc.) find Black womens’ values to be closer to their own. I don’t really think this would ever work for me, as I am a screaming lefty weirdo named after a communist, but whatever works….
    Asylynn…no no no no no! Oh down with that mirror darling! You are breaking our hearts…..it’s ain’t worth it

  36. laromana wrote:

    As I’ve gone to different sites and read the comments regarding OK Cupids findings, I’ve been struck (but not surprised) by the MANY denials of racism on the part of certain responsdents. I really appreciate the fact that Racailicious and other PRO-BW sites are approaching this subject from a more HONEST perspective.

    As an Afrolatina BW, ANTI-BW RACISM has been a REAL, LONG TIME part of my relationship life in America. I don’t need dating sites to confirm this REALITY.
    It saddens me that nearly a decade into the 21st century, I still have to read about how BW are the LEAST ACCEPTED/MOST REJECTED women in the dating world.
    I know so many beautiful, intelligent, successful, warm, caring BW who (defy ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES), like me, have been single for a DISPROPORTIONATE length of time due to the ANTI-BW LIES and MYTHS that continue to influence the MOSTLY NEGATIVE images promoted in American media/culture.
    In light of this reality, it irks me to see many people PRETEND that their NEGATIVE views of BW haven’t been influenced by MANY YEARS of ANTI-BW propaganda.

    Hopefully, as more people HONESTLY acknowledge their ANTI-BW bias and BW are able to control the creation of more POSITIVE, PRO-BW images in American media/culture, maybe this will lead to MORE FAIR, EQUITABLE treatment of BW in the dating world.

  37. Seattle Slim wrote:

    I have to clear this with Mr. Slim, but I want to use myself as a guinea pig for this. This has sparked my curiousity, and I want to really dig into this. Really…

    *thinks, videos, vlogs, posts, etc.*

    I am soooo saddened reading the comments here. Me and Mr. Slim discussed this, and it was interesting to have the convo with him, about white men and black women, and all the accoutrements of the pairing. I would REALLY like to delve into this more.

  38. DivergentDana wrote:

    “I have sort of found an unspoken kinship in that we are the ‘forgotten’ ones on the lovenet…what with the notions that one is completely sexless, and the other is sexstarved, like a Reese’s cup who knew till you put em’ together!”

    See, I have an affinity for the groups of guys who happen to pull up the rear in the reply results/desirability sweepstakes, but I worry that expressing an interest in men from these groups (and vice versa) now will seem like… well this. Some sad “Well, we both didn’t get picked for the baseball team, so let’s be BFFs”-type thing. No one wants to feel like anyone’s last resort, and to boot, let’s face it. A preponderance of black women and Asian/Indian men also believe the stereotypes about each other that put them at a disadvantage.

  39. octogalore wrote:

    Cosign Montclair Mommy @14. I think racial prefs are a prejudice and height, weight, etc. prefs are a preference.

    There’s only one exception and that is where one race has a characteristic one isn’t attracted to. If “Swedish” were a race, I probably would not respond to this race of men unless there were someone with exceptionally dark coloring. I just have never found pale, blond men sexual. I also have typically dated men who have half a foot and at least 50lbs on me, which probably restricts out more Asian men than other races. That said, having gone to an engineering school and worked in Japan, I’ve dated a lot of Asian men who met these criteria, and chosen not to date men of other races who didn’t.

    But typically when one expresses a preference for ones own race, one isn’t stating a physical preference, but a racial one — that’s prejudice.

    From RCHOUD at #31: “both types of preferences [skin color, thinness] within a person should be scrutinized in order to discover whether the person holding it is really personally preferential to it or whether he/she realizes that they’ve been socially conditioned to prefer it by societal standards.”

    Agree, but I think there is a fundamental difference there. For one thing, skin color is (mostly) immutable, size (mostly) isn’t. Even though many heavier people are physically fit and simply gain weight more easily, dating services aren’t an environment in which people cut each other much slack for possibilities.

    People should still scrutinize their motivations, but I think there is more of a functional/nonsuperficial aspect to a seeming (because dating sites require guesswork, even if such guesses are often wrong) shared level of physical activity/fitness.

  40. c.n.edaw wrote:

    “hey this guy would be great for you if you weren’t black!”

    This made me laugh out loud so hard! I have a black female roommate and she and I (am black as well) talk about how often well meaning co-workers, friends, etc who know we are both single ( in our 30’s) and will talk up some man they never have any intention of introducing to us…because they are not black when most of them know we have both dated interracially in the past.

    OR when you are in a situation with a lot of singles who are sussing out who likes who –the AUTOMATIC assumption is that NO ONE LIKES you (the black girl) OR that you wouldn’t like anyone. I hear black men claim that people have more misconceptions about them that makes interracial dating difficult…but in my years since leaving college I have NEVER seen it automatically assumed a black man would not be interested in dating a white (or other ethnicity) of woman or vice versa.

    In fact, it is usually some white woman who will give me the heads up that the brother in the building “doesn’t date black girls.”

    As depressing, insulting, and annoying as it is to have this play out time and time again in some forum…there are the few times I have loved seeing the shock on the faces of these people when they find out me and some preppy Aryan looking guy they think wouldn’t look twice at me have been dating/sleeping together for months and they missed it NOT because we hid our fondness or activities…but because they ASSUME there’s no way we could be together in that context.

  41. Nayo wrote:

    This/the ‘exclusion’ and marginalization of Black women as dating/mating partners, almost, has this strange ‘evolutionary’ vibe;as if this group is purposely being ‘eliminated’ through ‘unnatural’ non-selection.

  42. BlackIvy wrote:

    ashlynn

    You are breaking my heart. I empathize with everything you said. I love reading this site because in a world where I feel like no one has any sense and like im beating my head against the wall trying to explain things to people I can come here and get such fantastic validation.

    I recently got out of a long term relationship with a fantastic BM for compatablity reasons and as a BW I thought that I may find what was lacking in my relationship by dating someone very different from him. I thought that difference might include racial difference, but after going on Match.com and eHarmony I can see that that might not be realistic. Hopefully real life pans out better than online, but im not optimistic. I may have to give my old BM a call.

  43. Emekan wrote:

    Update!

    So I dunno if this was mentioned before, BUT eHarmony ESSENTIALLY has a “no black people” option. They ask you which races/ethnicities would you accept as a match!

    So…it actually may be more reliable to use eHarmony than OKC in this regard.

  44. ashlynn wrote:

    @laromana: I agree. We definitely need to be in charge of commanding and demanding real, positive self images of us out there. I get so frustrated with my friends who feel like they have to totally detest hip-hop, chicken, watermelon, loudness, and all these nasty stereotypes in order to feel okay. Liking watermelon doesn’t make you black, nor does being loud. You shouldn’t have to go out of your way to prove that you are a good person deserving of respect and love, nor do you have to beat anyone else down.

    Though there is no sort of campaign that Black women can undertake to completely overhaul people’s perceptions of us, there are so many things we CAN do. One of the most important is to be yourself. Even after yesterday’s mess, which I am still turning over in my head, I still got up, got dressed, and went about my day. I don’t need to profess my love for U2 or The Clash, music typically associated with a lot of older white people, to feel accepted; I shouldn’t have to. I try to explain this to my friends as well- that if you are your own person, you WILL stand out regardless of what people see you as based on racism, and those deserving of your light will see that as well and will gravitate to you on that alone. That said, I would never rule out the always interesting task of raising awareness; I’m up for rocking my “Beautiful Black Woman” t-shirt. :)

  45. mute wrote:

    @ DivergentDiana in 37

    I completely agree with you. Whenever I’ve read suggestions about how black women and Asian men should just hookup because we’ve been dealty similarly shitty hands when it comes to perceptions of our sexuality and attractiveness, I can’t help but cringe. Trying to urge more relationships out of this defeatist thinking is totally insulting to both parties. If I, as a hetero black woman did end up seriously dating an Asian male, its because I think he’s great all around. It will not be because I surrendered to the bullshit perceptions about who we are and what we deserve and thought “Well, this is the best I can do and I’m the best he can do.” Uh no, F*ck that.

    I also agree with your last point about many in each group holding the same negative perceptions about each other. Its sad we all can’t see through the madness. I just don’t understand our world. Why don’t other people challenge their perceptions of other groups more often? As I’ve grown in age and as my world has grown, so has the pool of people that I’ve found attractive. Its a really wonderful way of living…being able to see beauty and find good people everywhere.

  46. Eva wrote:

    This is very sad and I don’t know when all of the anti BW stuff began. When I was in college, in the 1970’s I never had any problems dating. When I hear about black women in college not going out, it really makes me sad and I wonder what happened.

    I think the online thing is kind of strange because all you’re really going on is what the other person looks like and all of us have pre conceived notions about who someone is based on how they look. But in a situation where you are working with someone, say for a political candidate, you get to know the person on a different level, you become friends first, you start to trust each other, you feel comfortable with each other and romance can come from that. With online it’s a bit backwards; you persue someone without knowing who that person is, if you can trust that person etc.

  47. Yetunde wrote:

    Based on everything I’ve read about Black women dating (both intraracial and interracial), I can honestly say that I’m glad that I’m not looking for a man right now.

    But when I think about dating and what kind of man I’d be looking for if I were dating, I can’t help but come up with racial preferences. I mean, we can all do the whole “an individual is an individual”/ race doesn’t matter thing, but the truth is that race influences the way an individual perceives the world and the people around them.

    For example, I would hate to say that I would not be interested in dating a White man, but at the same time I know for a fact that most (if not all) White people are blind to their privilege. So is it prejudice for me to prefer non-White men? After all, why would I want to end up with a man who thinks that the fact that there is a course called African American studies, but no course called Caucasian American studies is racist?

    Not that any White man would consider lowering himself to my black behind :/

  48. Selena wrote:

    That’s why it’s so imperative that black women don’t place all their “eggs in one basket”. Online dating is just one of many ways to get connected to that special someone. However it’s one that often get overlooked. I’m sure that if black women chose to seek non-black men who are interested in black women such as interracially specific sites, the numbers would be quite different.

    Keep in mind, black women who are seeking men SHOULD NOT be concerned with the sites that are not seeking black women! This isn’t rocket science.

    Online dating COMBINED with seeking out that special someone at the workplace, gyms, sporting events, concerts, ect., will give you plenty of options to choose from. Also gravitate towards men outside of the America- you’d be surprised with the results.

  49. Franki wrote:

    @c.n.edaw (#40)

    OR when you are in a situation with a lot of singles who are sussing out who likes who –the AUTOMATIC assumption is that NO ONE LIKES you (the black girl) OR that you wouldn’t like anyone.

    I’ve recently been digging through my internalized racial issues in regards to why I’m so rarely attracted to black men, even though that’s who I’m “supposed” to want, and I’ve discovered that part of it is what you posted right there. When I was much younger and my friends and I were beginning the whole crushes and boy-craziness, it was just always assumed that I would like a black boy. In terms of celebrity crushes, the only ones I was allowed to have were Will Smith and that guy who played Allen Strange. Regardless of what I actually found attractive, it was kind of pushed on me by my peers that this was what I should want, to the point where I subconsciously started dismissing black males in my head out of some sort of rebellion – a mentality that I wasn’t going to chase a guy just because we were both black. There are a lot of skanky societal things in there as well – like the absence of black males as acceptable objects of desire in the mainstream media I was exposed to – but the “Stay with your own kind, Negress!” had a lot to do with it. Which is incredibly sad, but hey, that’s systemic prejudice for ya.

  50. Donald wrote:

    There seem to me for two issues to be involved. Firstly there is the “what we find sexy/attractive” which is largely conditioned and for most men is primarily based on appearance. Even if this can be racist I can see no way of changing it because we don’t know enough about how conditioning happens. Secondly there is the cultural compatability issue. There are behavioural differences between different social groups and a cross cultural match will only work if at least one person is able to adjust sufficently to the different culture. This may appear racist but rarely is. An intimate relationship can only work if the people involved can understand their partner’s behaviour.

  51. n wrote:

    On every site I have been to the majority of men I have been matched with have everything BUT black as a preference. Occasionally one of them will contact me and I will point that out. *sigh* Its very depressing and demoralizing.

  52. Kenny wrote:

    Reading the statistics on this is not surprising but very disappointing. I live in LA & although there is a lot of interracial couples, it seems that one race takes more precedent over another.

    I’m curious if OKCupid had statisitics on what part of the US, Cupid users lived. That could be a factor as well.

    Another factor is the portrayal of certain ethnic groups in the media (institutionalized racism), ie Black/Latino men in prison, black men & crime, overweight black women, black women with attitude, etc. So men & women dating are looking at the status symbols of certain racial groups in the States.

    I recall telling a friend how I thought about trying online dating as a last resort, b/c I really don’t meet guys to date in Los Angeles. His response was, “don’t do that..” & he began breaking down how certain races likes a certain “aesthetic” as he put it.

    I’m 32 & in the back of my mind lingers the thought of eventually growing older & being alone due to peoples so called “preferences”.

  53. Harmony wrote:

    If you guys look at the whole black women as undesirable campaign going on, don’t ANY of you find it strange that they are NOT doing this to black men?

    This is definitely not a coincidence.

    @Nayo
    I never seen it like that but maybe that’s it.

  54. Harmony wrote:

    @Mute
    When people are stating that Asian men and black women should get together, that is extremely condescending.

    And what is it about these two groups that the media just…will…not present in a positive, desirable light like they do all…other groups?

    @C.n edaw

    I’ve notced that too, where people never automatically assume a black man will not date out his race, but this happens to black women quite often.

    And when white girls want to throw it in your face that a black guy doesn’t date black women, it comes across as an ego boost to them and I believe that it makes them HAPPY that a black guy doesn’t date black girls.

  55. DivergentDana wrote:

    “And what is it about these two groups that the media just…will…not present in a positive, desirable light like they do all…other groups?”

    But that’s untrue. All of the “black/Latin man as he-man” stuff has a darker side, the side that depicts black/Latino males as losers in life, bad husbands and bad fathers on a regular basis. That doesn’t bode well for men from those groups that want to date without race being an obstacle, either.

  56. JuJuBean wrote:

    “This is very sad and I don’t know when all of the anti BW stuff began. When I was in college, in the 1970’s I never had any problems dating. When I hear about black women in college not going out, it really makes me sad and I wonder what happened.”

    Thats the thing….we don’t! I am a college aged Black woman and I have never had a problem getting attention from any man, Black, white, Hispanic, Asian, whatever. It sickens me to see Black women in here throwing a pity party for themselves. Wake up sistas! A lot of you by your own admissions have never experienced this exclusion personally and the ones who have have experienced it online where EVERY negative social aspect is inflated.

    This doom and gloom, “nobody wants me the po Black woman” approach Black women are taking is exactly the approach they want you to take. It is like someone else said and I will continue to quote him because he’s so right. Those OKcupid stats specifically had had Indian and Black men with the lowest response rate, more than 10% fewer than Black women themselves. But who did the article key in on? BLACK WOMEN. They are doing it on purpose. The same way they purposely released the statistics a year ago telling us that 70% of Black women are single, while forgetting to tell us that 63% of our own Black men are single, and over 50% for white and Latina women as well. Because it suits their purpose to make us look as undesirable as possible much more if they don’t mention the men we are supposed to be marrying aren’t marrying either and other women aren’t much better off.

    There is a campaign to get Black women to lose all her self confidence and approach the dating scene that way. Once that happens, the bs they report about us IS going to come true. I brought these ’statistics’ up with a friend of mine a few days ago (another Black woman) and before I could even get into what I wanted to say about it she hit me with the “damn I’m so sad that we as Black women are so undesirable to everybody” shtick. This is a Black woman who has been proposed to 3 times already! lol. She has no problems with men and even she is being negatively effected emotionally, mentally, and subconsciously by this media campaign aimed at Black women. I can imagine there are countless other Black women just like her too, that will let these insecurities seep into their personal lives and create problems that were not there before. There is a saying in the media industry that says essentially that you can create reality by putting it on tv/the big screen. That is exactly what is being done.

  57. JuJuBean wrote:

    Just to be clear, I want to make sure no one thinks I posted that last post with rose colored glasses on.

    I am aware that racism and prejudice exists in this world and in the dating world. I am aware that the majority of other races of men do not want to date Black women, but I am also aware that the majority of other races of men do not want to date white women, if they are not white themselves, Hispanic women, if they are not Hispanic themselves, Asian women, if they are not Asian themselves, etc. etc. The truth is, people like to stick with their kind overwhelmingly. We should not expect it to be different for Black women, nor should we feed into the lies that it is worse for us or we are more physically undesirable because ‘the media’ and the ’statistics I read that one time’ said so (and especially if it rings so untrue in our own lives, which I think it does for a number of us).

    What I am trying to say in general I guess is to not let these stats get to you and tear at your self esteem. Yes, only about 10% of White and other non-Black men might be open to dating you, but I can guarantee you only about 10% of White and other non-Asian men are willing to date Asian women. And the same for Hispanic women. The ONLY exclusion might be white women because they enjoy the benefits of living in a predominantly white culture, but even still that is nothing to fret over because you know WHY it is happening and it isn’t because of you or something you’re doing or not doing, how you look or don’t look, etc.

    I would be a fool to sit here and eat up everything the media is constantly telling me about being a Black woman when so many other experiences in my life including the men who approach me tell me so differently. I just want to encourage other sistas to do the same.

  58. Dave9 wrote:

    “But it’s not automatically assumed that a short man is less than good looking based on his height alone. ”

    If you go and look at a number of profiles on any dating website, see how often you see women select men that are of equal height or taller. I haven’t done the statistics, but I am willing to bet that it’s on the order of 90%. Also, check to see how many men select women of their age or younger, again I would bet it is a high percentage.

    Like it or not, there is a combination of both biological and social pressures on mate choice.

  59. DivergentDana wrote:

    Dave9, equal height preferences can’t count unless the woman herself is above average male height. I’m 5′2” (the average height for an American woman, I believe) and would prefer a partner that’s close to me in height, so this clearly would and does manifest itself in a preference for short men over tall.

    JuJu Bean, who’s the “they” who want black women to feel undesirable, and how do “they” benefit?

    “I am a college aged Black woman and I have never had a problem getting attention from any man, Black, white, Hispanic, Asian, whatever. It sickens me to see Black women in here throwing a pity party for themselves. Wake up sistas! A lot of you by your own admissions have never experienced this exclusion personally and the ones who have have experienced it online where EVERY negative social aspect is inflated.”

    See, I have experienced it in the outside world. I think I’m the only person I know that didn’t date in college, and my mother in particular chalks it up to the non-blackness of my school. People’s experiences are different. Yours aren’t invalid, but neither are mine.

  60. jpd wrote:

    @ GSM and Franki

    I am a white woman on Match.com and have listed my ethnicity as ‘other’ because it sickens me when guys have either chosen only white/asian women or when they have checked everything but black.

    I am with Montclair Mommy, that even though of course we each have individual preferences about who we find attractive, those things generally have to do with characteristics or features that are not necessarily ethnicity-specific. And to prejudge that no one who is X will ever be attractive to you, or that only people who are X will be, is clearly the result of some deeply ingrained racist beliefs.

  61. Marcy Webb wrote:

    There are sites which do cater to interracial dating. Not to say that there are confused White folks looking to get their “Jungle Fever” on there, too, and not to say that just because a White person chooses to partner with a person of color, it doesn’t make him/her less biased.

    For my part, I am going to try my luck on dating sites where there is a clear intent on the part of the participants to date interracially. I wouldn’t waste my time with mainstream sites such as Match.com OKCupid or eHarmony, just to name three.

  62. Marcy Webb wrote:

    I meant to say, “Not to say that there are *not* confused White folks…”

  63. bdsista wrote:

    I got on Interracial Dating Central in response to folks on Racialicious who called me on my less than open attitude to IR dating, since I tend to prefer Black men, but was married to a Black/Japanese man and have dated white men who unfortunately could never take me home to Mom, despite my being an attractive sista with a law degree. Well guess what? IRC has a plethora of Black men who are open to dating everything and oftimes exclude Black women on their list, but contacted me anyway! Also IRC shares the same database as Afroromance which is an IR site directed towards African Americans, which is where my current crush came from. But I have found on this site more eligible Black men who share my intellect, interests, etc. than on regular sites. So I am still tentatively trying to be more open to white men, but extremely wary of fetishization because I also am a bellydancer and when they see the pics, well…… But I attribute my success in finding more compatible Black men who like smart women on this site, to perhaps if you are open to other races, you are open to learning about their culture, more well travelled, etc.

    I also want to add that I am 50 and so my target age group is bout 38-58 and that might also have something to do with levels of education and experience.

    But I have experienced a lot of wierdness on Yahoo personals and Black peoplemeet (meatmarket) and couldn’t stand eHarmony (too slow and got matched with one older Black man and the rest were guys who did not seem to be interested in Black women or camping fishing, outdoorsy, plain guys from Kansas-NOT exciting). no offense to you outdoorsy types. But I find the eHarmony system almost ludicrous.

  64. Natalie wrote:

    I agree with so much that’s said, so I actually am not going to add much to the basic points relating to BW’s desirability, etc. I am a black female myself and there were times I know I’ve been picked over or slighted. However, I have had my share of being approached by great guys from all ethnicities and backgrounds as well.

    If people want to be ignorant and close minded, so be it but if you keep openess in your heart (and more importantly your self respect and confidence), the RIGHT people will gravitate towards you.

    Many people feel that they need QUANTITY for validation, but I would rather have a few quality guys approach me that would be interested in truly dating me and maybe even taking it to the next level than a bunch who would fawn over me hoping for a one-night stand (not bashing anyone who’s just after that) or who view some aspect of my phenotype as a fetish.

    Why I’m writing here is mainly to respond to DivergentDana’s reply to JuJuBean (I agree with both of them BTW).

    I feel the “they” that benefit from the statistics is in a general term “the media”. Any intelligent person capable of critical thought I’m sure at some time has dissected the issue of how the images we see every day affect the psyche.

    If not within ourselves, then maybe with our friends, our families, or anyone who has had their self-worth compromised by an unfair depiction or a comparison to an unattainable illusion (and I mean for EVERYONE).

    I would be so bold as to say that where the media is concerned, we can even go beyond race because it has the ability to make just about everyone question some aspect of themselves for the sake of marketing.

    This society thrives on people being unhappy with themselves, and stereotypes are just a more efficient means of delivering these feelings. Even the *shudder* “positive stereotypes” we know still hurt greatly and I feel are even more devastating because they set someone up only to be let down if they don’t have that certain assumed quality.

    It is cultural brainwashing and different groups have been targeted in different ways. It sadly isn’t just an issue for Black women/Asian men but ALL people.

    How on earth are all of these cosmetic manufacturers, fashion designers, weight loss pill pushers and plastic surgeons going to stay in business if *gasp* people are HAPPY with themselves?

    Why are we supposed to compare ourselves against the so-called beautiful celebrities when without the makeup, hair, wardrobe assistance and the miracle called Photoshop they look just like us?

    I’m not going to say I’m totally immune. I see it…but I make a point not to internalize it. And the aforementioned “statistics” game makes me want to pick my TV up and throw it out the window. The point is they want to skew it in your head BEFORE you have a real life experience to relate it to due to others getting the same brainwashing.

    It compounds the hurt and plays into the reactions that the stereotypes reinforce. It is because of this lack of self-worth that people are acting out and shameless and are willing to show the nation through all different media, but I find it particularly prevalent on reality TV shows. Of course if anything or anyone doesn’t fit what they want to portray – that’s what post production is for. >:(

    Speaking of my TV, in general I watch very little television and it really does help the mind to not have so many degrading/deceptive images. I’ve only been able to stomach the “real beauty” by Dove campaign and would love to see that on an even grander scale. Nobody can accept you but YOU. People are so warped they’re looking for acceptance from all the wrong places.

    BW’s – be proud, stand tall and love yourselves! Please! Lack of confidence in any social situation is more apparent than you think and IT will make you less desirable to others before any physical characteristic will.

  65. Molly wrote:

    What Juju Bean is suggesting is it’s curious that at a time when we have a large number of high profile, beautiful, intelligent and powerful black women in the public sphere ( First Lady, Valerie Jarrett, Susan Rice, Desiree Rogers) there is a persistent meme that black women are undesirable. I think this speaks to a larger cultural anxiety about the social changes underway. Many, many people in the MSM are deeply uncomfortable with (black) women in positions of power, particularly when they don’t conform to stereotypes. So we will continue to suffer an endless stream of “news” stories that seek to explain just why it is we are less than, statistical outliers from the “norm,” or curiously “different” in some way.

    Oh and I do agree with Juju (hope I am not putting words in your mouth!) that the relentless nature of these memes, and the way they are reinforced in a variety of media outlets, can serve as a form of psychological warfare.

  66. maria6 wrote:

    @Donald

    Donald i absolutely agree with you about cultural compatibility but to a degree there lurks racism and prejudice too. One assume that a person belongs to a certain cultural group and or social class because of race. On a simple level, what about those people of transracial adoptions? They may be one race but culturally belong to another.What about immigrants? Do black immigrants automatically get along with black Americans simply because they are both black? If you are aware of the tensions between black Americans, African immigrants, and West Indian immigrants you will no doubt respond with a hearty no. The cultural difference between black immigrants and black Americans can be greater than that between white and black Americans. The only way to find out about someone’s’cultural background is to engage in a conversation and be open to seeing what they are about. In addition.

    Ever automatically assume that an asian person must be an immigrant, and an immigrant from china (rather than hmmm, lets say, Jamaica)? Or were surprised that they didn’t speak with an accent, or they had an accent that you never associated with “asian”? This is the same kind of racism.

    I am a bw who recently dated a japanese brazilian and I was suprised by how many times I had to remind people that he wasn’t “asian” he’s’brazillian born and bred when they felt the need to say “asian men are like that”. He personally used to say that his face is asian but his soul is brazilian Otherwise people we met assumed that I was brazilian until they heard his this brazillian accent.

    Cliche but true, you can’t judge a book by it’s’cover.

  67. cocolamala wrote:

    i definitely experienced this in middle school/high school “why don’t you go out with XX?” [names the other black person in class]

    my cousin went through this too, in the largely white, christian missionary group she fellowshipped with in college. when the other girls graduated, many got engagement rings. she lamented her lack of many dates, wondering if she was already an old maid at 22.

  68. brownstocking wrote:

    While I get the “pull yourself up b the bootstraps” motivation speech JuJu is going for, one N does not a strong sample make. Everyone has an individual story, and for your, JuJu, story to be taken as generalizable, that would then neutralize or invalidate my story.

    I do get what you’re saying, and I never took what you said as “rose-colored,” more of a “don’t let The Man get you down” post.

    And, really, why can’t we vent at Racialicious? Why can’t we affirm each other, and say, “I thought it was just me, it’s not, I’m not crazy/alone/bitter” etc.? Sometimes, the “damn, this is messed up” is needed before the “shake it off, put some dirt on it.”

    Yes, we’re facing dangerous memes, but I would argue that this isn’t new, every other year we read about how Black women can’t get married, Black women have to share men, blahblahblah.

    What was refreshing to me was that a dating site showed the reality that most of us who’ve tried mainstream online dating sites face. And, yes, I give OKC props for that. I’ve learned to not waste my time or money on those sites. I will try the IRC site mentioned above, instead, since I believe in “let the buyers beware.”

  69. JuJuBean wrote:

    Natalie, this part of your post: “Lack of confidence in any social situation is more apparent than you think and IT will make you less desirable to others before any physical characteristic will.” stands out very much. Agree wholeheartedly with it.

    @Molly

    That is exactly what I’m saying! It is no coincidence that despite the statistics telling us that Black women are graduating at the highest rates in our history, and improving on so many levels in education, employment, etc. that we are suddenly getting constant messages of how basically we still ain’t shit. To me, its just another case of a “we can’t let them feel TOO good about themselves” situation.

    @brownstockings

    You don’t have to be condescending. If you took my post as a personal affront to you and your experience I am sorry, but I am speaking mostly to the sistas who have not and do not experience the horrible loneliness and undesirability that the media tells us is our present and future. To a lesser extent, I was also warning even the sistas that HAVE felt the sting of undesirability that the media hammers home, to be very wary of letting it consume them because people can sense lack of confidence and it does indeed make you unattractive to good men as well as make you possible prey to bad ones. You and DivergentDana have both experienced what the media says about Black women all the time, as have many other women here. I am not invalidating your experiences just because I have a different one and wanted to speak on it.

  70. keith wrote:

    I see alot of truth in this article, i noticed the same thing on some of those dating sites.
    I remember back in the 1970 through the eighties, when racism was more overtly discussed, i used to hear my elders say things like, if your black get back, if your brown stick around, if your yellow your mellow, if your white your alright. That phrase implies that depending on the shade of color you are, will depend on how your going to be treated.
    If you look at most of the magazine covers, most of the people presented are a lighter shade of color,so it’s no surprise dark skin women are looked at in a negative way, sometimes it’s done in a conscious or unconscious way, and some people don’t even realize it. what i’m saying is,when something is associated with black or darkness, it’s considered bad or evil,black men on the other hand, have a high incarceration rate to deal with, it makes you think.
    These racist, asinine ideologies to some extent are ingrained in some peoples subconscious. I personally find all shades of color beautiful.
    Let’s wait about twenty years when the majority of people in this country are colored, and see if things are still the same.

  71. Brenda wrote:

    Single black women, don’t fret. I agree with Selena: sometimes you gotta look outside the boat, not necessarily subscribe to an online dating website for foreign men but chat up that foreign man you work with or see at the gym all the time. Or see on the train platform. You’ll be surprised by how receptive and accepting they could be. All is not lost. American men are not the last men on the planet!

  72. Dave9 wrote:

    So I got bored and did some statistics on height and desired height from women on Match.com.

    From a small sample of 50 women looking for men, age 20-50, the median height for women was 5′6″ and median minimum height desired was 5′9.” The median difference between the minimum desired height and the woman’s height was 3,” only 7 out of 50 desired men of the same height and NONE wanted men shorter than them.

    I would expect some error from a sample of 50, but it looks about right. From NCHS, the average female height is 5′4″ and average male is 5′9″. So it appears that a female of about average height wants, _as a minimum_, a male of average height. This also squares with my experience, being rejected for being shorter than average.

    Studies have been done that show this bias to be nearly universal, height being correlated with health, good genes, strength, higher earnings potential, intelligence, etc. So it’s not surprising that women select for it.

    Now I don’t whinge about being short and not having it as easy as tall guys in attracting women, I just accept it. It means that height becomes an issue, the taller she is the more likely I’ll be rejected, and finding women shorter than me is difficult.

    My response rate on these sites is about 10% and of those, about 10% turn into meaningful relationships. That’s 1% of the people written to, not just looked at. Again, I accept that it’s not easy, these numbers are what they are, and it means I have a lot of work to do to find “the one.” But when I do, I will know, and it will be worth more because of the work it required.

  73. Jay wrote:

    Most non-whites are more prone to scour racial/cultural specific dating sites(ie blackplanet,etc). Those of us who check out sites like OkCupid or eHarmony already know that there are going to be more white people on, more than likely, looking for other white people. The nonwhite people on those popular sites are either openminded or already prepared for some fair amount of rejection.
    As for the commenter, i suggest that she start reexamining what “groups as a whole” are presented that find “black women less attractive” and “white men more attractive”.

  74. lm wrote:

    @Phil Deeze –
    Phil, I’m afraid that as far as the story you told about the white woman’s behavior?

    If you or any of your “brothers” have some long-standing policy where you “don’t date black women” , and have just shrugged and said “I like what I like” when someone questions you on it, and have never bothered to analyze WHY you “like what you like” — then, as far as I’m concerned?

    What happened to you is just karma.

  75. DivergentDana wrote:

    “and have never bothered to analyze WHY you “like what you like”

    But what do you do when a person has bothered to analyze why? Even after a person has done so, it usually doesn’t change… has anyone successfully changed their racial preferences — what they find sexually stimulating aesthetically — through critical thought? Not by increased exposure — because with black men who aren’t attracted to black women that wouldn’t be the issue — but by saying “Hm. Perhaps my ideas of what makes an attractive mate are influenced by a larger society that unfairly/arbitrarily rewards some and maligns others based on approximation to a Eurocentric standard of beauty.”

  76. Picturemann wrote:

    After I read the article, I wondered why the article was couched as yet another “Black women as the world’s worst victim” piece. Clearly, according to OKCupid’s own numbers, it is black men who come off as being in the worst dating situation, not black women. But then, they couldn’t grab headlines and the attention of black women if they were to say that could they? Or maybe the owners of the OKCupid website (and the editors and managers of American media) simply don’t give a sh*t enough about black men to even notice or care.

    Let’s go back and do the numbers again, this time comparing OKCupid’s figures for the response rates black men and women achieve when sending messages to potential mates of various racial and ethnic groups:

    BLACK WOMEN BLACK MEN
    Native American – 41% / Black – 28%
    Other – 41% / Native American – 27%
    Middle Eastern – 40% / Pacific Islanders – 25%
    Black – 37% / Other – 24%
    Indian – 37% / Indian – 21%
    Hispanic – 36% / Middle Eastern – 21%
    Pacific Islanders – 32% / White – 21%
    White – 32% / Hispanic – 19%
    Asian – 31% / Asian – 17%

    In other words, even the LOWEST response rate received by black women from various racial and ethnic groups (31% from Asian men) was STILL higher than the HIGHEST response rate received by black men (28% from black women). But apparently the dating plight of black men is of no interest to OKCupid. Or, even worse, they assumed that the dating plight of black men would be of no interest to their readers- white, black or whatever. AND THEY WOULD PROBABLY BE RIGHT IN THAT UNFORTUNATE ASSUMPTION. After all, what is the value of black men in American society? Our value is close to ZERO (except, of course, when it comes to sports and entertainment). We can’t even claim “worst position” even in situations that clearly demonstrate that we are in the “worst position.”

    OKCupid engaged in what the magicians call “misdirection.” They suckered the public into looking in one direction when they should have been looking in another direction. American media does this all the time when it comes to the plight of black men as compared to that of black women. For example, based on the media stories to come out in past years about rates of HIV/AIDS you would be right to assume that black women suffer from higher rates of HIV/AIDS than black men– and you would be wrong. In fact, the rate for black women is 60.6 (cases per 100,000), while that of black men is 136.8 (see the CDC website and this page in particular: http://twurl.nl/b6qxvp).

    Moreover, the folks at OKCupid even decided to point out that black women were not even valued by black men, when it comes to the responses they received from potential mates (”Essentially every race—including other blacks—singles them out for the cold shoulder.”) Yet a perusal of OKCupid’s own numbers would show that when it comes to responding to potential mates, black men respond LEAST to black women AND black women respond LEAST to black men. The rate of response from black women to black men is higher than vice-versa, but black men and women are BOTH LAST on each other’s agendas. See for yourself:

    BLACK WOMEN BLACK MEN
    Pacific Islanders – 39% / Pacific Islander – 57%
    White – 38% / Asian – 55%
    Middle Eastern – 37% / Middle Eastern – 55%
    Native American – 34% / Other – 52%
    Asian – 34% / Indian – 51%
    Indian – 34% / White – 51%
    Other – 32% / Native American – 50%
    Hispanic – 31% / Hispanic – 46%
    Black – 28% / Black – 37%

    That the folks at OKCupid could write an entire blog on the subject of race and dating and single out the plight of black women while ignoring that of black men is despicable. Sadly, it is also typical. Or perhaps the across-the-board stereotype of the “no good black man” is so profoundly and thoroughly ingrained that their pathetic response rate from potential mates is to be expected and is, therefore, of no consequence.

    And that SUCKS.

  77. Adrianna wrote:

    Who wants to date a racist? Prejudice , racism , colorism and media percetion all factor in but who cares.
    I mean just because in America Black women and Asian men are not seen as desirable by some does not mean it is this way all over the world. You know outside of the US and even within some people think that Black women and Asian men are desirable. This meme has got to stop. I’d rather not be some exotic conquest. I think it’s great that they put out the statistic. I would not put too much weight on them or let them lower our self esteem. I mean the world does not end and begin with what happens in the US. Yes there still black men who like black women yes there are still Asian women who like Asian men. Just like there are women of all colors who love Asian men ditto for Black women. Finding someone is not the hard part. finding someone of quality is regardless of race.