Comic-Books & Race ‘09 Part 1: Open Thread

By Special Correspondent Arturo R. García

StormTChalla1

Seemingly lost amid the news of Disney’s acquisition of Marvel Comics was this post by Marvel Executive Editor Tom Breevort, where a question about non-American comic-book leads yielded this rather candid response:

Because we’re an American company whose primary distribution is centered around America, the great majority of our existing audience seems to be white American males. So while within that demographic you’ll find people who are interested in a wide assortment of characters of diverse ethnicities and backgrounds, whenever your leads are white American males, you’ve got a better chance of reaching more people overall.

Boom! Studios head Mark Waid commented on the issue at Comic Book Resources:

In the original post, Tom makes it abundantly clear that he’s not sure he has an answer, isn’t sure he knows THE answer, but that he’s hazarding a guess. And while Tom’s syntax following that is a little blunt…man, I wish it were wrong, but it’s not. Every comics publisher ever, including BOOM!, can tell you maddening tales of retailers who, even now, in the 21st century, are hesitant to order books with non-white, non-American leads because their community won’t support them. It’s absurd, it’s crazy-making, I don’t know what it’s going to take to change that other than time…but like it or not, it is an unfortunate truth of the time in which we live.

Needless to say, there’s a few layers to this discussion. But rather than try to wrap it all up into one post, I figured we’d start by getting your take on the matter. Is it a matter of “not supporting” POC superheroes, or the industry that creates them? Is it a case of creative and business inertia? What do you think?

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[...] “I raised my voice in anger when I was wronged and have been banned from working at DC. That’s OK. Really, it’s OK. Here’s what I want to tell you that no one else will… comic creators LOVE what they do and would gladly do it for free. Comics creators will spend days debating who would win and why in a fight between Superman and the Hulk. For us THAT is the issue, for us THAT is the reason we do comics.” – Michael Davis (link via Elayne Riggs) [...]

Comments

Karyn wrote:

I think its creative and business inertia. It ties into a conversation here a bit ago about POC leads in YA lit. The interest is there, the business side however refuses to market more broadly under a delusion that white people *are* the market and white people wouldn’t be interested, which does a huge disservice to white folk IMO. Hollywood suffers from the same myopic marketing/development strategies.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 8:36 am ¶
Persia wrote:

IMO, it’s a self-fulfilling cycle. Comics have white male leads and get bought by white males. The industry creates more white male leads to appeal to more white males, and so it continues. It’s part of the overall problem with the American comics industry– trying to appeal to a smaller and smaller demographic, while not figuring out that a more diverse and interesting cast would attract new readers.

I remember I was in a thread at Peter A. David’s blog and I tried to point out that there’s a huge untapped female audience that’s busy reading manga, not Western comics, and that the industry should do better outreach– and someone actually pointed out to me that there was a recent issue of a comic that was heavily promoted in industry publications and had variant foil covers, and what more could they do for marketing than that?

It’s like a shrinking echo chamber. It makes me sad.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 9:15 am ¶
Slush wrote:

Cosign with Persia. Also, maybe they should notice that the US is getting less white, proportionally.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 9:50 am ¶
Sean wrote:

It’s the chicken vs. the egg again.

One side says the audience doesn’t exist because the characters/stories of POC aren’t there. The other says the characters/stories of POC doesn’t exist because there’s no demand for it. I tend to fall on the former side.

I remember the anticipation for what Todd McFarlane would do after he left Marvel to start his own company. He came up with Spawn: a (formerly) black man who went to hell and came back to earth as a do-good demon. The love interest and leads were almost all African-American and for a time, the title was wildly popular -even leading to toys and a forgettable live-action movie. (incidentally, one of the main characters was played by a white actor) Though McFarlane downplayed the black lead characters in his book -stating that Spawn was a fleshless being- he admitted that he was at least partially reacting to the comic book industries tendency to WASP-oriented stories and characters.

In this instance, I believe that having poc at least involved with the writing and creation of the characters/storyline would help go a long way.

Here’s a clip I found by a comic book reader. Non-white comic fans of a certain age can probably relate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB7DlcDto4Y

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 10:02 am ¶
cocolamala wrote:

there is money in tapping minority markets.

other products like beer and cigarettes, are able to advertise to minority as well as majority populations — they believe that ads with people of color sell products.

i mean, are you selling comics or are you selling white comic book characters?

if, one year, all superheroes were characters of color, would white readers give up and forget about reading comic books?

obviously people of color are able to still purchase comics without seeing themselves represented in them very well. so why the belief that minority characters will so radically disrupt the market?

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 10:11 am ¶
prvlgd cdn wrote:

“if, one year, all superheroes were characters of color, would white readers give up and forget about reading comic books?”

In practical terms, since you’d be talking about all new characters in most cases, and the North American superhero comic market is built heavily heavily on nostalgia, you would lose more existing readers than you gain new ones.

There’s a huge inetria problem in the industry because of the comic shop distribution model.

Manga circumvents that model, (for instance) and manga succeeds.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 10:24 am ¶
cocolamala wrote:

“since you’d be talking about all new characters in most cases”

not necessarily, in that hypothetical you could just as well be talking about drawing the characters as black –

for example, the Green Hornet, Dr Who, James Bond, and Batman are played by different actors at various time while retaining the continuity — i was imagining a scenario similar to that.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 11:06 am ¶
submom wrote:

I found the candor refreshing and was not offended. If the characters themselves are engaging with a compelling backstory, I believe they will sell, and the Internet should help go a long way towards the change in the distribution model. Now my only concern would be the stereotypes propagated through any heroes of color. Although one can argue comic book heroes are nothing but stereotypes, I’d still like to see, for example, an Asian American hero who knows no Kung Fu. Thanks. Enjoy the discussion.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 11:27 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

whatever.

when i first started reading manga in middle/high school, i knew that this (manga) was going to be the next big thing.

and what happens?
i leave the country for a month for study abroad in 2003 (or 4?) and come back to see borders overflowing with manga…specifically of the girl’s type.

i know that those companies can’t ignore the huge impact that japanese manga is having on the US comics industry.
they are probably losing money to boot.

i never got into US comics. i don’t really like the style, i’m not a big fan of the stories, etc.

anyways, while they are saying there’s no market, maybe there’s no market in the white male audience, but there is in everything else.
if they didn’t care, then i don’t think that they would be finding american writers and artists to make crappy stories with crappy “manga-like” drawings.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 11:32 am ¶
jmn wrote:

I would counter Breevort’s argument with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXKIfdBt0Vw

“Secret Identities: The Asian American Superhero Anthology”

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 11:33 am ¶
prvlgd cdn wrote:

For what it’s worth, to counter my answer above, if they didn’t keep killing off the b- and c-list characters of colour, each company could pretty easily do a month of books primarily lead by COC … off the top of my head (asterisk indicates characters that have had their own titles currently or in the past few years, not counting major roles in group books). The CoC are much more common/prevalent in group books:

Marvel:
Black Panther*
Storm*
Armor
Sunspot
Falcon
War Machine*
Photon
3-D man (co-lead of the Avengers Initiative Secret Invasion story arc, along with another CoC–who was killed at the end of the arc)
Brother Voodoo
Luke Cage*
Misty Knight*
Dust
Amadeus Cho
Warpath
Rictor (I think)
Monet
Dani Moonstar

DC (I’m less familiar with these guys)
That elseworlds Superman (different powers)
Steel
Black Lightning
Onyx
Most recent Blue Beetle*
Green Lantern (John Stewart)
Green Arrow (Connor Hawk)*
Manhunter (I think she’s a CoC)*
Mr. Terrific
Wonder Woman’s sister (Nubia !?!?!)
The Question (Montoya version)*
Mr. Miracle*

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 12:12 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

@jmn

lol at
“What’s with all the shrinking characters turning Asian? Is shrinking like, the new martial arts?”

To me that’s the equivalent of looking at Spawn and Blade and wondering why the edgy black characters are demons and vampires.

But hey… I guess it’s one step up from the role of the sidekick.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 12:20 pm ¶
Bob son of Bob-el wrote:

Having owned a comic shop in the past I can say that he is right. One title stands out above all others. Marvels The Truth. It was an amazing book and I loved every frame but, sadly, I couldn’t give them away to the people of Sunrise, Florida. I know we all want to think that the industry is racist and evil but the facts are the facts. We can have books with POC heroes but for the industry it just doesnt make sense. The point of a comic company is to make great comics and to make money. For every The Truth, Young Avengers or Black Panther there has to 50 caucasian titles. It sucks but it’s true. Want more books with POC characters? Buy more books with POC characters. It is the core of supply and demand.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 12:32 pm ¶
Logan wrote:

I did a very brief look up, so I could be completely wrong on a couple things, but some other random information to chew on:

In the mid 90s, there was a group called Milestone Comics, made entirely out of minorities who wrote comics with minority leads, and for a short while, were successful. They were technically published by DC while maintaining the rights to their characters. Without question the most well known of their characters would be the Static character, who had his own cartoon a few years back (Static Shock) and has been fully integrated into the main DC Universe (more on this later). Basically, they were successful for a few years, and then fell victim to the Comic Bubble Burst and went out of business.

In recent years, a deal has been made where DC would have the rights to the Milestone universe, since while they published the Milestone line previously, the creators maintained control over the use of the characters, so DC couldn’t just plop them into their universe. Apparently, one of the heads is upset because with this deal, the only one who has really been integrated into the DC verse is Satic, and the other characters from the Milestone Universe have been left out in the cold. I’m not completely sure on this or the exact details, but I read about this a few weeks before this post and I’m just tryin to say what I remember.

Books focused specifically on minorities have sold in the past, and while they went out of business, I do find it hard to believe that books based off of minorities could not have substantial sales. On the other hand, it seems much more difficult now for anyone whose not an iconic figure to keep up enough sales to not get axed, and that isn’t even enough recently (I remember Thor a few years back, which had like 500 some issues, being put on hiatus due to low sales). I can understand the trepidation of trying to create a new series with a new character, and the book being axed before there was enough time to develop and grow an audience due to “poor sales.”

Still, its quite clear racism and prejudice exists within the industry, and within the higher ups. The situation with Didio and Milestone could be used as a good example of this.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 12:35 pm ¶
Yuhei wrote:

The two men quoted are longtime veterans of the American comics industry. Their honest appraisal of the state of race in the industry is accurate, save one thing: Manga.
Despite the recent string of popular super-hero movies, their comic book counterparts continue to have problems attracting younger readers, female readers, and people of color. Japanese comics that have been translated into English, on the other hand, have had much greater success. And while much fuss is made over the “non-Asian” appearance of many Manga characters – big eyes, multicolored hair, etc – the fact of the matter is that they ARE fundamentally Japanese characters. They bow to each other, take of their shoes when they enter a home, eat with chopsticks, and do a thousand other things that are intrinsically Japanese. And the mostly non-Asian Manga fans in the US eat it up.
Thus, the idea that either White comic readers won’t read a story about a non-White character or that there aren’t enough non-White characters in comic shops is not true. What IS true, however, is that there aren’t enough Asian-American, African-American, etc. characters available – that White readers accept a character of another race if they are foreign, but not if they are American.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 12:44 pm ¶
Asada wrote:

@ little mixed girl and Persia,

Ohhhhh, so now I understand my obsession with anime/manga! And you know this all along….
I can’t stand the way comics are drawn in the USA either. Always found manga ( and anime) more interesting. THe story lines are better. BUt it seems in Japan they try to consider a wide audience. You can find something good for almost everything and every subject.
However, anime and manga have the same issue with PoC. It’s still done for Japanese fans primarily everyone else, to heck.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 12:47 pm ¶
Luis wrote:

It’s weird that Brevoort said that, considering that Marvel has been pushing many of its PoC characters into the limelight in the last few years. I think the realization from both the bigs is that a PoC superhero need to be good characters with interesting stories, not just representatives. The reworking Bendis has done to Luke Cage is a great example of it. By making him a strong part of the Avengers story (without ignoring his blackness), he’s become a more universal character.

The flipside to this are books that haven’t made it. The latest Blue Beetle was a Mexican-American kid from El Paso, who, as the story progressed, also patrolled Ciudad Juarez. It was a critical darling and also survived for a few years, but recently got the ax. While it’s run can be considered a success as far as the turnover in comics are concerned. The real win is that the character is now a big part of the Teen Titans, seen in lots of other books, and stars in his own Team-Up book where he gets to meet other characters, including some newly revived Milestone characters (a black-owned and operated imprint of DC with the most diverse cast of heroes in the game).

In short, this generation of publishers recognizes the problem that their predecessors had, but seem to be dedicated to finding creative ways to make these characters a part of the audience’s lives. I was disappointed for many years growing up, but I’ve really never been prouder of Marvel and DCs efforts. Hopefully they’ll keep it up, and we’ll see more.

PS As for the myth that the audience is totally white and male, go check out the New York Comic Con next year. It’s almost a majority PoC event.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 2:08 pm ¶
Luis wrote:

Some edits:

*a PoC superhero needs to be a good character with interesting stories, not just a representative.

*While it’s run can be considered a success as far as the turnover in comics are concerned, it’s sad to see the only Latino-headlined book in comics go.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 2:10 pm ¶
Luis wrote:

Oh, I created a video about this subject, way, way, back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3bwHtwQviw

Enjoy.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 2:13 pm ¶
YellowValkyrie wrote:

I agree with Persia – the comic industry creates white, cis-male, American leads; sees that white, cis-male Americans buy those comics, and assume there is no other audience. They don’t stop to think that by catering to that audience they alienate many others.

I’m a cis-female, white American comic fan and I am always VERY excited to see comics with female, POC, trans, or LGBTQ characters. I am completely turned off by comics filled with white guys so OF COURSE I’m not going to buy them.

And submom – have you checked out zuda.com? it’s DC’s venue for new comics – you can read and vote, and the best get published (I think that’s how it works, anyway). My faves include Deadly, in which the protags are Australian aborigines, and Dual, in which one of the 3 main protags is a Chinese/Jamaican woman.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 2:35 pm ¶
Persia wrote:

@Asada:

I really like Bleach and Black Lagoon in particular for giving real roles to their non-Asian characters. There are a few others that do it, but those two are standouts.

@YellowValkyrie:

Thanks for the heads-up. Were you reading Young Avengers when it was around?

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 4:27 pm ¶
Titanis walleri wrote:

“The real win is that the character is now a big part of the Teen Titans, seen in lots of other books, and stars in his own Team-Up book where he gets to meet other characters, including some newly revived Milestone characters (a black-owned and operated imprint of DC with the most diverse cast of heroes in the game).”
He also is a recurring character in the Batman-central cartoon “Batman: The Brave and the Bold”…

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 4:38 pm ¶
Quercki wrote:

That’s the reason I don’t buy comics.
However, I did by Promethea. All of them.
and one issue of Concrete.
I’m not interested in the rest, so I spend my entertainment money elsewhere.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 5:13 pm ¶
SeattleSlim wrote:

BRING BACK MISTY KNIGHT, MARVEL, YOU BASTIDS!

Okay, I just had to get that out. I need them to bring back her comic book with Colleen Wing.

Moving along, I think that if black youth would really get into comics, basically make their presence radically known, it would make a difference. I was so excited when Afro Samurai came out. I was excited to find Misty Knight (only to be disappointed that they stopped)…but it seems that comics/manga/anime seem to be relegated to the “fringe” sectors of the black diaspora (blipsters, black skaters, etc).

I genuinely believe that they don’t think we read comics (not true) and I genuinely believe that WE don’t think we need to read comics because it’s not “ours”.

For me, this argument is like the music argument (who listens to rock, black rock bands, vs hip hop etc). We are OUT here. We’re WAITING for you to represent us in comics.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 5:22 pm ¶
Korubin wrote:

It’s business, plain and simple. The folks who buy the most American comics are 35-year-old white men, so the books are geared towards them. Those are the same guys who bought comics 30 years ago, so the industry’s just maintaining its base. No business would ditch its biggest market to try to win over folks not interested in its product unless it could do that without losing it target market. The other thing’s that the people who aren’t in the target market who are willing to by comic already do.

Now, the reason books with non-white characters don’t sell is way more complicated. Part of its just expectations. If it looks different people won’t buy it. Part of its race-based. The biggest part’s probably that products for non-white people usually aren’t for white people. We’ve spent the last four decades telling white Americans they can’t really understand this group or that group and made films, tv shows and books that overtly exclude and attack them. Not every non-white thing is like that, but a lot of it is. So white guys probably aren’t going to buy a book with a teenage black kid because they kind of know where its going to go.

We need more neutral approaches to those type of characters and there’ll probably be less of a backlash. Of all the fanboy complaints about the Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions, that most of the principle cast was not white wasn’t one of them. We need to see more of that, of just putting the characters there and telling the story. It’ll take time, but it can eventually happen.

In the meantime, I think artists should sneak that stuff in, kind of like how Damien Scott always drew Batgirl with the african face when she had the mask on.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 6:53 pm ¶
Tony wrote:

The problem really is white is still the “default” in terms of identity.

What i mean is this (and it is NOT just limited to comics) is that often times when you have a ‘white american male’ character the writers realize they have to do alot of things to seperate this character and give them an identity beyond their race.

When they create a black character (or a hispanic one, or a Asian one or an Arab one) they feel the character is already ‘different enough’ and thus the character tends to be all about their race.

Heck, the main image of this article is part of that.

“Hey, Storm and Black Panther are both black and from Africa, let’s marry them” you know, despite the fact Storm had more romance in history with Wolverine, Gambit, and Forge.
(Oh, and we’ll have Storm be perfectly happy with her hubby having a HAREM too)

Until white is no longer thought of as “normal” and everything else as “different” the problem will persist.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 7:55 pm ¶
Tony wrote:

Also, another problem (which is really an extension of the first problem) is IMO, a lot of “non-white’ characters are so damn stereotypical they’re unrelatable to most ‘non-whites’ too.

Let me put it this way.
I liked some characters like Storm whose histories were very unique, but I couldn’t stand most black characters in comics because a LOT of them relied on the ‘gangsta’ stuff I couldn’t stand.

The only mainstream black character I could relate to in my teenage years was “Synch’ from Generation X. (Marvel Comics)

He was black, but had no ties to ‘gangsta’ history, and was infact intelligent and the most likely leader of the team when not monitored by adults.

Of course, he was also one of the first members of the team to die.

(Depending on if you count “Monet” as black I’d count her too. She’s an awesome character, and basically the only ‘ethnic’ survivor of Generation X)

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 8:02 pm ¶
Jha wrote:

I always wonder about this “readers won’t read stories about PoC” thing. It used to make sense, but then I consider that as an Asian some of my favourite stories still feature white people, and I’ve just seen Ponyo twice already (followed by a Miyazaki binge), so I’m more inclined to say that it has to do with that industry letting the market lead them to create shitty stories.

The fact that the industry runs a great deal on nostalgia only ups my contempt for it. But then, I like stories that end.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 8:23 pm ¶
7thangel wrote:

with the amount of racefail, and other fails i see when i’m at cbr when talking about diversity, there’s a large entrenched group of white straight males that don’t want any change and don’t want to be challenged. it’s like a bingo-poolaza in some of these threads. and i’ve read and known some store owners that do. no. want. your. business. despite the fact that they’re struggling to find new ways to sell to their diminishing market.

don’t even bother with the official dc boards, some should be at free republic

here’s a link on that bs, where the jla was called the ‘minority league’ by some white readers because it had more than 1 or two non-white characters and the writer Dwayne McDuffie, like Priest and Hudlin in other titles, was called a Black racist and trying to push and agenda. it also has info on milestone and the current screw over http://dwaynemcduffie.com.lamphost.net/?p=528

while dc seems like a lost cause, marvel has it’s own problems. the amount of non-white heroes that are either dead or in limbo (i’m currently in a thread discussing marvels failure to use Blue Marvel) is sad. the list of mediocre, defensive, or useless powers is glaring. it’s disappointing. as is the permanent skin bleaching of folks like sunspot, M, and darwin and the dragonlady/asian sexpot trope

also, while ‘truth was great, the art wasn’t and this is a common argument, not only does it not get a push, the art or the writing is sub par or not ‘commercial’. this won’t help sales.

it’s tough. i was just called a racist by some fool the other day because i had the nerve to hope and wonder that they might actually cast an asian actor for tetsuo for the american live-action of akira (sigh, i know, i know) instead of another white guy as they keep doing. i even had the wise idea that it wouldn’t matter if it’s reset in manhatten and his name was changed to steve.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 8:38 pm ¶
prvlgd cdn wrote:

The thing with the manga comparison, from what I understand, is that Manga is actually sold primarily as perfect-bound trade paperback type books through regular large bookstores.

_And_ there are no creative development cost for Manga, they are just reprints of stories with proven success.

The big two comic companies sell floppies first, and almost entirely through specialty shops–it’s those shops that are run by and patronized by “comic-book guy” types. That’s the model Marvel and DC have, that’s their business. They’re essentially specialty/niche publishers. They sell trades through the big bookstores, but they have no idea who buys them.

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 8:45 pm ¶
Martina wrote:

I’ve been to bookstores before and have noted plenty of PoC and girls buying/reading comics, and I know of a lot online that do (it’s really shocking sometimes, because it feels like such a minroity and comments like the ones above from the industry make it seem so), but it’s hard to enjoy the comics when there aren’t many CoC, or females or LBGT. And if they have them, you’re lucky if the character is worthwhile and happens to get even five pages of not being in the background.

If companies took the time to make developed PoC/female/LBGT characters and have a nice plot (and style/art), people would eat them up.

And manga is increasingly popular. And I think that’s in huge part to the stories, art styles and varied characters. I think I’ve seen more variation in skin tone in Bleach than I have a Marvel comic in a while. And really, the Japanese don’t really need to have CoC, but they have very nice and popular ones here and there. So if they can do it, why can’t we?

Posted 11 Sep 2009 at 11:36 pm ¶
7thangel wrote:

i don’t read spiderman but this
http://box-in-the-box.livejournal.com/283707.html

for marvel to play that off for comedy, smh. it’s like those old marvel/dc stories of fail

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 1:20 am ¶
Jennifer wrote:

In before “Storm and Black Panther were only married because they’re both black and…” Oh. Never mind.

Although it’s interesting that nowadays, Marvel is actually trying to de-Panther Black Panther. He’s been reduced to some crippled prince regent, and the “new” Black Panther is his sister, who until now has been little more than the Sassy Black Woman – always quick with a joke and a smile. Oh, and T’Challa lovely black wife, Storm? Well, in the last two books, she’s had one line. So fear not, T’Challa/Ororo haters – your whining and crying has not gone in vain.

I suppose Hudlin’s Panther run, as flawed as it was, was just a little too much (for lack of a better term). I can almost hear the Marvel meetings: “Let’s just stick with powerful black women – we can deal with them. But a powerful, educated black king with an equally powerful black wife? Hey, we already have that in the White House!” What other reason can Marvel give for taking the Black Panther out of Black Panther?

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 2:45 am ¶
Elayne Riggs wrote:

If you have an industry that’s largely run editorially by white males, they’re going to push books that they like, with characters who are idealized versions of themselves (and the women they wish they could nail).

A propos of nothing, I highly recommend Michael Davis’ open letter to DC Entertainment’s new publisher, Diane Nelson. Here’s the link:

http://mdwp.malibulist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/an-open-letter-to-diane-nelson-by-michael-davis-straight-no-chaser-133/

Definitely makes me wonder how Michael (full disclosure: a friend) was wronged and why he was banned.

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 8:37 am ¶
ztastz wrote:

I don’t mind the assertion being made in Tom Breevort’s statement. It’s simplistic, but true in a lot of ways. What I do mind is the industry and the majority of white comic book readers insisting they aren’t racists. And their downplaying the racist foundation comics are built on.

It’s always PoC who see race in everything and it’s never them. No, those white fanboys they’re colorblind. They just want well-written comic books, it dosen’t matter if the lead character is white or brown. And that’s a lie.

I don’t mind the assertion being made in Tom Breevort’s statement. It’s basic, but true in a lot of ways. I appreciate the honesty. What I do mind is the rest of the comic book industry and the majority of white comic book readers insisting they aren’t racists. I mind their downplaying the racist foundation comics are built on.

I mind that it’s always PoC who see race in everything and it’s never them. No, those white fan boys, they’re colorblind. They just want well-written comic books; it doesn’t matter if the lead character is white or brown.

And the guys in the industry they just want comic books to be like when they were growing up. Oh, all the characters back then were white? Well, they’re just keeping the golden and silver age alive. It’s not their fault PoC don’t fit in their lily-white memories of yesteryear, and thus their recreation of it today. Nope, they are innocent bystanders, by golly!

The truth is all they want to see in comic books is white people who look like them being iconic and saving the world, because in their minds a PoC doing stuff like that feels contrived and PC, or just plain wrong. Oh, they’ll accept women in their comic books; if she’s white or a bleached out WoC with Nordic features and straight hair dressed in booty shorts or bikinis, prancing around with huge tits jiggling contrary to the laws of physics. But try and point that out to them (go on, try, I dare ya) and they start squealing like the racist, homophobic, misogynist pigs they are.

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 1:00 pm ¶
ztastz wrote:

Damn it! How did that happen?

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 1:05 pm ¶
Tony wrote:

33
“What other reason can Marvel give for taking the Black Panther out of Black Panther?”

Considering Hudlin is still writing it, I’d say it’s probably his idea.
He’s thus far been full of bad ones for T’Challa as a character, so he may as well screw up the Black Panther name as well.

(Yes, I really hate Hudlins run.)

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 2:31 pm ¶
sandeep wrote:

the helplessness in the guys tone, second guy, responding to his associates initial remarks, dont really sit well with me. never underestimate the power of one man, and whilst yes one should acknowledge personal limitation, don’t count yourself out for ever making a difference in said thing. perhaps if such trends were more publicized, perhaps if comic book creator legends such as stan lee were vocal about how white-washed heroes are wrong, that any race is capable of being the hero, perhaps it’d make an impact. truth be told, you see the same thing in film, japanese origin’d stories being played by white folk. perhaps its easier to stomache. but moreso, it’ll take some couragious producers, and in this case, comic book makers, to help bring about SOCIAL change. yes, it’ll take folks who are’t concerned primarily with their coin purse, but moreso changing the world. for the hard-up and start-ups, being socially forward is just backward thinking if one wants to end up in the profit in their bottom line. but yeah, this is changable, its to do with who consumes such things, as well as who makes it, as well as the education of folk as they grow up as to the viability of folk of all body build and skin tone to perform equally in all manner of things.

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 4:01 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:

I say, put em on blast and have Roland Martin interview them and then have michael baisden and tom joyner call for a boycott of their advertisers and make em change it.

I dont buy comics partially b/c they dont ship and I don’t feel like driving into downtown Baltimore to buy a comic book. So hint to all you comic store owners. If you took credit cards by mail or paypal and shipped you probably would sell more. I have bought comics off ebay because I could get them delivered and I am a marginal comic reader. Used to love them as a child. Like them now, but you make shopping really hard for us online shopping folk.

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 9:22 pm ¶
Generatrix wrote:

Black people like comic books, and white people like Black comic book characters. i am something of a comic book geek myself, and i have many many trading partners and acquaintances who thought Blade, for example, was the coolest thing since pop-tarts BEFORE the Wesley Snipes movies came out. A lot of the excitement vis a vis Blade was because they felt good about rooting for a Black character (hey, rooting isn’t fraught with complications, not like actually supporting anti-racist struggle).

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 12:37 am ¶
ashlynn wrote:

No market? Are they serious? Comic books are universal. ANY kid can read them. I grew up in Brownsville projects and you could EASILY find a kid with a stash of comic books. My brother had hundreds. It’s a case of not giving PoC characters the quality of story that a White character receives. It’s a case of a strong lack of creativity, so you get your business people and lawyers together and say “There isn’t a market.” The same goes for YA lit, which has been heavily discussed here. Intelligent readers don’t want PoC characters if they’re not going to be afforded the same quality of story that White characters are, simple as that. I’ve got two words for this: Cop. Out.

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 1:32 am ¶
Gina wrote:

Bob-el. If minorities don’t want to buy your product, and white people find it “uninteresting” you have to wonder why. Look at manga, look how the “asian look” sells between white hipsters who exoticize Asian people.

There is a difference; look, for example, exoticizing and fetishizing characters of color IS a audience problem. Not writing interesting, good, and no stereotypical stories about CoC IS an industry’s problem.

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 1:17 pm ¶
Terrence C. Conyers wrote:

I think we need to reinvent the image of what a superhero looks like. A cape alone should not define a superhero. As far as a black superhero, Im more concerned with the artist who created the hero. My Comic -Curly Clavis- was created off the influences of great thinkers of all races. 20 years from now people wont be narrowed down to race or color of skin. We will just be labled HUMAN.

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 2:59 pm ¶
Freakzeek wrote:

* i just want to note: Hudlin’s no longer writing the black panther, John mayberry is. and the only reason T’challa is out of the spotlight , it to set up, the huge “Power” story arc in the book, The Black Panther’s gonna come back stronger than ever

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 7:11 pm ¶
Melissa S. wrote:

I had a similar arguement some time ago on Youtube about Batman Beyond and who would play Robin. I thought it would be interesting if the character was played by a girl, but the response I got was that Robin had to be a boy because it was tradition.

It bother’s me to no end that they constantly say things like “it’s tradition” while they’re going under and losing potential audiences to manga. It bother’s me so much because I love reading American comic books yet as a AAfemale they don’t even think of me as a reader. Oh it’s nice that I’m reading and watching the shows, going to the movies and such, but really? Who cares if I am.

Maybe the reason the audience isn’t there is because the industry isn’t taking the time to put them in the mainstream. It’s not easy to get into comics when you know little about the process of getting them.

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 8:10 pm ¶
Jen wrote:

Ooh, ooh, Racialicious, have you seen this?:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,26069435-7582,00.html?from=public_rss

Disney “in talks” with Indian comics company that publishes stories featuring traditional character.

Posted 13 Sep 2009 at 9:10 pm ¶
urbia wrote:

@bdsista

“I say, put em on blast and have Roland Martin interview them and then have michael baisden and tom joyner call for a boycott of their advertisers and make em change it.”

I’ve been saying something similar for years. I think people would be pleasantly surprised (or unpleasantly, depending on where you sit) at how effective an organized boycott could be. POC may make up a fraction of the total population but I was surprised when I read stats on how much of the sci-fi/comic/video game market we make up.

Oh yeah – about the demographic makeup of the market, I actually worked as a comic artist myself. Does the success of Dark Minds ring a bell? That was definitely manga-influenced. It was a hybrid between American-style comics and Japanese comics, and it was a hit.

And I actually got to work on Transformers material because the company got so successful it outbid Marvel for the rights. Lots of POC in the fanbase. (For me personally, this adds another layer of fail to the racism in the Transformers movie, which was quite disappointing, but that’s another story… Yes, a previous Transformers artist boycotted the Transformers movie. Lol.)

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 2:15 am ¶
karak wrote:

I believe that characters who are PoC are often used as either:

1. White Guy With a Tan (the character could be Chinese, Black, or Indian, they all acts, talks, and walks the same damn way)

2. Object Lesson of Tolerance (which, I think, speaks for itself).

Both of these strike the reader as annoying and pandering. There doesn’t need to be a reason that a hero is a PoC, but that must have some influence on their life and choices, without being a “LETS LOVE EACH OTHER” moment.

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 4:41 am ¶
Jess wrote:

I’d go with the reason that comics traditionally were whit-ish is that the guys writing them were white males, for the most part.

I mean, it was a big deal (back in the day) when Elfquest was written (and drawn) by a woman. That is in 1980.

THen there is the stereotyping issue. And the basic lack of knowledge to even get those right. I mean, I remember as a young teenager (I date myself) reading the first few issues of New Mutants. One of the characters, Karma, was Vietnamese — and always was doing exclamations in French. Uh, yeah, they speak French there, but only a very narrow class of Vietnamese would have that as their first language and they wouldn’t be boat people. I mean, there were Vietnamese dictionaries around in 1985, and there were the occasional Vietnamese people you could have asked, you know? Christ. I was a teenager and could figure that stuff out. I mean, I and other readers were old enough to remember the freakin’ war, you know?

Leave aside that every writer seemed to always do the stupid stereotypical things– like forgetting the word “yes” or Kurt Wagner’s f-ed up German. Or Peter Rasputin’s Russian. (Nobody says “Lenin’s Ghost”, f’r chrissakes).

It’s like, none of the writers went to the local bookstore. The only time I saw them get it right was in some of the Wolverine stories– I remember one untranslated conversation in Japanese and thinking “hey, they seem to have figured it out.” Leaving aside all the weird shit about Japanese culture most of the writers seem to have absorbed. (Ironically, one of the better ones was Frank Miller, who at least seemed to have picked up a good book on the subject once or twice before he went off the rails).

I understand that most comic book authors and artists were working class white guys. (And a lot of Jews and Italians, for some reason). But you’d think that by the 80s that would have changed some.

Don’t get me started on the idiocy that came up whenever a Native American character was introduced. Ye gods. Ironically, the best example was the guy who Ororo was involved with — I can’t remember the name, he was a Cheyenne and a cybernetics expert — oh yeah, Forge. I thought he was better because he was showing a Native guy in non-”traditional” dress, who had a job like everybody else, and didn’t wear feathers and live on a rez. And I remember one scene in particular where he discusses it, and he sounds like all the normal people I knew who say “yes, I am a Cheyenne, proud of it, but it doesn’t define me totally.”

That has to be one of my favorite race-related moments. But it was never followed with anything that good.

I actually think things have gotten a little better. But not much.

I do also think there is a certain amount of industrial inertia. Comic books are a part of American culture that has a narrative — they are our myths. And people get touchy when you mess with that.

I mean, think of this: Jesus was probably an Arab/Semitic. But how many black churches have a picture of that kind of Jesus up? I haven’t seen many. (African churches in Africa are a different matter). Even though it would, theoretically “connect” better – and I remember in the 70s there was some effort to promote black Jesuses (Jesii?) — but it failed.

Traditions are a powerful force, you know?

That said, that doesn’t mean you can’t change anything — just that the changes are going to be a certain kind thereof. There will never be, i think, a black batman (tho it would be cool). But there’s plenty of room for PoC characters elsewhere.

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 7:35 am ¶
CEdwards wrote:

Got one word for you: Blade.

Please don’t tell me that you can’t create a character of non-Caucasian descent that’s not engaging enough to reach the masses and one day “Spawn” (see that — there’s another example) a following big enough to warrant a feature film and really bad action figures.

I really get sick and tired of being told that the reason there aren’t a lot of diversity in literature, art, film is because the “audience” isn’t there. What are we saying here? People of color aren’t part of the collective audience? Or White people don’t have the ability to connect with characters that don’t look like them? Either way, this theory blows.

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 8:43 am ¶
Philip wrote:

2 things…I have spent mucho American dollars on Marvel…cuz at least I thought they were more progressive with that stuff…so yeah a little effort guys…also I was in a predominately white audience when the Blade 3 trailer was shown…and the lack of Wesley in the traler caused an initailly happy crowd…to be quiet with disapontment…one guy (white and not my friend) even said ‘not enough Wesley in that clip…’ We got a black president who’s a fanboy…C’mon ya’all at least try…I am not a fan of Grant Morrison cuz he’s bald and European…it’s cuz he is an amazing writer…Maybe initailly I was attracted to the X-men as a kid because of Storm…but I stayed cuz the stories were good and the subtext of intolerance riveting…the world is changin ya’all…why are all these Scotish ,British,and other writers more willing to take a chance on characters of color, and not AMERICAN WRITERS…check yerself…times have changed!

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 12:33 pm ¶
grey wrote:

Posted this comment on CBR… it didn’t show…

Letter to Brevoort

The creative control team at both Marvel and DC has for years been perpetuating the myth that African American and other so-called “minority” characters can’t sell to what is their predominantly “White” audience. These individuals that control the creative direction for these companies use this as an excuse to dismiss or diminish the best ideas from creators that don’t fit within their “social” group.
The truth is that comics companies are carried by daring, experimental product. When their sales are declining it is more often due to stale programming. Fantastic Four and Avengers sales did not decline when the Black Panther was featured. Even the caricature that was Luke Cage enjoyed good sales and response in its original manifestation. When Falcon debuted in Captain America, dropping sales rose…
Why is it that when sales drop on a book with a “white” lead character, it is the fault of the creative team or direction, and when it is an ethnic or international lead being featured, it is the nature of the ethnicity or nationality that is to blame.
If “those books” didn’t sell than either the ideas weren’t strong enough or the execution was simply not compelling enough… or in some cases, plainly insulting.
Define what “white” means in terms of the comic buying audience before you toss this term around as if everyone knows who is being referred to. You’ll find that the comic readership is far more diverse and progressive than you would have us to believe.
If the “Big Two” have an agenda that is just not in keeping with perpetuating strong characterizations that are outside of their adulation comfort zone, maybe some can’t openly say it… but the numbers and the reality of the limited or horrible manifestations of alternative characterizations speak for themselves.
The comic audience is a demanding one. Temporarily “colorising” existing characters is not the answer… and if you are going to come out with new characterizations, they’d better be sharp, as in cutting edge and compelling, or why bother. There have been talents that could have done this but they were deemed undesirable to these companies.
Since when has the audience truly dictated what was going to be “hot”. Is this what artistic creators do… or do they inspire and influence the creative thoughts of others by challenging their sensibilities?
Urinate on our heads and tell us it’s raining… Just because Marvel says it, doesn’t make it so.

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 1:50 pm ¶
Vincent S. Moore wrote:

Not to toot my own horn, I talked about this very topic two years ago. I don’t believe much has changed since then but I do believe much can with some serious effort on the parts of the publishers, the retailers, and the fans black and white to raise their expectations and challenge their tastes.

My original posts:
http://www.comicswaitingroom.com/vince6.html
http://www.comicswaitingroom.com/vince7.html
http://www.comicswaitingroom.com/vince8.html

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 2:07 pm ¶
Chris wrote:

One of my favorite characters, Cassandra Cain, recently got axed as Batgirl after years of mistreatment by DC comics. Her replacement Stephanie Brown is another character I like and one that also suffered from mistreatment by the company, but it’s still disheartening to see one of the few Asian characters get swapped out for a blonde-haired, blue-eyed WASP.

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 5:12 pm ¶
Jha wrote:

Melissa S: Huh. Weird. I thought that there’s been a female Robin at some point in the past?

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 9:15 pm ¶
Jennifer wrote:

@ 33:

Jonathan Mayberry is the current writer of Black Panther. Haven’t you nursed that can of Haterade long enough?

Posted 14 Sep 2009 at 10:21 pm ¶
KB wrote:

He’s right. I’ve picked up several books with characters of different races as the mains. Most of them didn’t last long. Their sales dwindled until they weren’t profitable enough to keep going.

My current favorite, Runaways, usually has a cast of 6. The line up changed several times through it’s run but it’s always been diverse. It’s been canceled once and restarted twice. It’s always been a low seller but Marvel has tried it’s best to keep the book going. Another book I read under similar circumstances was gutted of most of it’s characters and soon had the ax. They tried to reboot it but it still took a dive. They moved some characters under a new title and it only lasted a year. And even another example. Out of a cast of 10, only 4 were white. It lasted 20 issues.

Even the newest Blue Beetle, the only book on DC I’ve picked up, sold poorly. Maybe I curse books.

It’s not that people aren’t buying those characters. It’s that people aren’t getting into anything new. The X-men books got kicked back after house of M. Spider-man’s life got set back 20 years. Joe Q has been trying to reset Marvel back to a higher selling time. New characters don’t get a chance and any old character that wasn’t popular enough gets booted out of the revolving door.

We can blame downloads, we can blame the economy, but in the end it’s the buyers who decide who stays and who goes.

Posted 15 Sep 2009 at 1:39 am ¶
Chris wrote:

@Jha: There was. Stephanie Brown (who’s now Batgirl) was Robin for a very short time.

Posted 15 Sep 2009 at 2:37 am ¶
EarthTone wrote:

{The creative control team at both Marvel and DC has for years been perpetuating the myth that African American and other so-called “minority” characters can’t sell to what is their predominantly “White” audience.

These individuals that control the creative direction for these companies use this as an excuse to dismiss or diminish the best ideas from creators that don’t fit within their “social” group.}

What makes you feel it’s a myth? I for one do believe that white readers and/or white comic shop owners are less “open” to diverse characters.

I would also add that there is a universal feeling throughout the industry that readers are not receptive to new characters, of any race.

Having said that, I do wish we’d see more risk taking by the industry’s Big 2.

What needs to change is that the small comic audience needs to expand. Right now the market is very small, the distribution chain (mainly comic book shops) is small, and comic books are facing competition from places that didn’t exist back when Superman and Spider-Man were created (cable TV, computer games, the Internet).

If the readership was to grow, things might change. But comics has a very small audience that basically wants to see the same old same old. And the SOSO doesn’t include diverse characters.

Posted 17 Sep 2009 at 11:27 pm ¶
Daryll B wrote:

I have hit on this topic offhandedly for the last 6-8 mths on the radio show my friends and I do. I used to be in love with nostalgia and the silver age…until I realized all that was doing was “whitening” the landscape again. So I blamed the companies and creators.

But then I saw what happened with the new Atom and Firestorm’s books. Then I saw what happened to Blue Beetle’s book. I saw comments by fans that were out and out racist about McDuffie and Milestone. I saw some of the things said about Ms Marvel and Wonder Woman and their runs and realized that this problem goes much deeper than just image.

Kudos to Tom for not sugar coating this and to everyone else (me included) before we start throwing stones or making accusations, why don’t we look at exactly what we buy week to week.

I will say, I collect quality over quantity these days but at the same time, if a black or PoC/G book was written well (aside from the ones I mentioned earlier, early Static Shock, Steel issues from Supes death, Truth, Checkmate, even PG) go out and support it

Because when it all comes down to it…we are all to blame for this in a way.

Posted 20 Sep 2009 at 8:05 am ¶
tarhaka wrote:

This is a discussion that has been going on for at least 3 years at the blacksuperhero.com forum. We are still tryin to figure out the size of the African American audience for comic books. 1 estimate says there are 250,000 hard-corp comic fans and that at least 50.000 of these are Black.

One of the things we’ve been trying to do is figure out new ways to market comics created for and by minorities. 1 step in the right direction was the creation of:

http://www.africomics.com

A site dedicated to showcasing comics independently created and sold comic books from Black creators and also mainstream books with black leads. Our take on the situation is that their are fans out there who don’t even know they are fans yet. We just need to reach them with quality books with cool concepts.

To address this we’ve been kicking out new and innovative marketing ideas, and trying to see what sticks. The truth of the matter is Breevort is right, white fans find it hard to relate or even conceptualize someone different from themselves being the hero. Whining about it and trying to force the big 2 to create black books won’t help that.

So we as a collective need to market books to our people by-passing the mainstream distribution channels all together. When our stuff starts poppin off, the big 2 will be just like the record industry was with Hip Hop or the movie industry was with Tyler Perry.

Posted 07 Oct 2009 at 12:33 pm ¶