Comments

1. Bobby wrote:

   My father fought in the Vietnam war. He’s not considered a veteran since he was not a U.S. soldier, but fought for the South. He still donates to veteran groups, tho. I can’t help but feel that the U.S. shits on Viet veterans every Veterans’ Day.

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 1:48 pm ¶

2. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist wrote:

   That is so lame.

   Mod Note – DIMA, lame is considered an abelist slur. We try to make a lot of people feel welcome on this board, so please do not use the term “lame” so casually. – LDP

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 2:02 pm ¶

3. Jess wrote:

   Maybe some of this is all due to some pernicious and persistent myths about the Vietnam war to begin with.

   I mean, in the photo, for instance, is the POW/MIA plaque. The implication is that the “Missing” soldiers were being held as POWs, and never returned (it was a much bigger issue in the 80s, and our good friends Chuck Norris and Sylvester Stallone even managed to churn out four or five films with that premise).

   Never mind that the ones listed as MIA were lumped together with “BNR” — for Body Not Recovered, drastically inflating the number. (BNR was for people who died in ways that precluded recovering remains or dog tags, like helicopter crashes where the whole thing burns bodies to nothing, or explosions in which people were basically vaporized).

   Never mind that keeping POWs after the conflict is over is just plain silly (I mean, what would the North Vietnamese gain?).

   And then there is the myth that it was all the fault of the protesters and the US would have won if it wasn’t for the counterculture.

   Acknowledging that the US might, y’know, owe something to people who fought with the military is one more thing that forces people to acknowledge realities we might not like.

   I mean, what the hell is going through the heads of people who complain about a monument to “them” being so close? Do they understand that these people fought by your side? Are you so blinded by the fact that they are Vietnamese?

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 4:03 pm ¶

4. Khinky wrote:

   I don’t understand the mentality but I’m hoping that it’s merely due to the American vets being old and stubborn… I know it’s not an excuse. Maybe it would hurt too much to get out of their comfort zone?

   All of which makes me feel really angry about how they’re treating the Vietnamese Americans. Imagine having had to go through the exact same war, but with less recognition and less support. And even hosility.

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶

5. TN wrote:

   I think they forget that the VN war was a civil war. They weren’t just fighting against the Viets, they were supposed to be fighting with the Viets who happened to be fighting against other Viets. Being Vietnamese myself and having had family members fight against VN communism/socialism/whatever-it-really-is and losing lives and limbs, I find their (US assuming white) opposition really insulting.

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 6:24 pm ¶

6. atlasien wrote:

   I think the mentality is in large part because the U.S. soldiers in the Vietnam War generally didn’t like or trust the South Vietnamese.

   In many accounts I’ve read, there’s even a grudging respect accorded to the Vietcong — the sort of “worthy opponents” thing — that isn’t extended to South Vietnamese army soldiers.

   It must be maddening and tragic for these allies and their descendants… I’m sorry.

   A lot of Hmong immigrants are in the same boat. Sometimes being an ally of the U.S. is almost worse than being an enemy.

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 8:15 pm ¶

7. Rat-race wrote:

   This is hardly surprising in a country where it is still acceptable to be openly racist to Asians.

   Posted 11 Aug 2009 at 9:25 pm ¶

8. luckyfatima wrote:

   My best friend’s dad was in the S. VN army and worked with U.S. soldiers. Her family were ‘75 evacuees. My BFF told me recently that she had heard that the congress passed a law that made S. VN soldiers eligible for military benefits, but she didn’t know how to help her dad apply for it. Does anyone know how, can link a website or anything?

   This article just saddens me. Those U.S. soldiers don’t think that the war affected everyone involved and that everyone deserves a memorial to their heroism and loss. The Vietnamese people lost way more in that war than any American so the U.S. soldier reaction is just so hypocritical.

   Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 4:32 am ¶

9. dan wrote:

   Great, denying that Vietnamese people fought in the Vietnam civil war.

   Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 4:38 am ¶

10. A.G. wrote:

    I understand why, as veteran and as someone who has socialized with a lot of Vietnam veterans.
    !. Vietnam was a war in which many young people served and have a lot of vicious memories. Many of them have post traumatic stress disorder. There are a lot triggers for many, some of them believe it or not are triggered by people who look similar to vietnamese people or the vietnamese themselves. I have seen it, and it is how post traumatic stress disorder words. Now, who do we blame, Racism? or the Department of Veteran Affairs who fail to provide adequate treatment for this type of anxiety disorder.
    Another thing is that many of them were drafted to go to a war, unwillingly. After they returned, they were called baby killers, spat on by other Americans, not recognized as veterans, denied membership in many veterans organizations, and discriminated against when searching for employment. Of course, this only added to the trauma of what they have seen.
    We have to be very careful when we paint actions as racist, especially when there are other factors. Sure, there may be some racist Veterans but it all boils down to having something of their own. Unless you know the feeling of going to war, being traumatized, having your friends die; only to return and have people spit on you as you deplane, then you can’t judge them.

    Mod Note – We have had this conversation before on this site. The ultimate conclusion is, you can respect veterans for their service but you *cannot* excuse racism, especially not on a site dedicated to discussing racism. It is not ever justifiable. Keep that in mind for future comments. – LDP

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 5:46 am ¶

11. Freakzeek wrote:

    I can understand the hostility involved in regards to the vets, My father fought in Vietnam, though it may not be right this is a pretty sensitive subject that may not actually attributed to race as much as hostility due to a war that has been so misconstrued and shaped by the media and thousands of different accounts from all sides of the war.

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 6:01 am ¶

12. jvansteppes wrote:

    This doesn’t surprise me; American intervention in Vietnam wasn’t exactly inspired by solidarity with the South Vietnamese…

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 7:38 am ¶

13. TN wrote:

    10. A.G. wrote:
    “There are a lot triggers for many, some of them believe it or not are triggered by people who look similar to vietnamese people or the vietnamese themselves.”

    And why would this be the case you think?

    Vietnamese people look like other East Asian and South East Asian people, that’s a lot of triggers walking around.

    I do not ever dare dispute the effects and the seriousness of PTSD, but to associate a whole group of people with a “certain look” to something else specific speaks more of racism than of the traumatic experience.

    Do war veterans of WWI and WWII experience triggered responses when (speaking of those in the Allied groups inc. US) they see people who “look like” Germans and Italians ie. other white people?

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 9:14 am ¶

14. atlasien wrote:

    @A.G.: your argument is really, truly repulsive.

    I have a stepfather who is a Vietnam vet. He’s active in anti-war causes and I know a fair number of Vietnam vets through him. I’ve never heard any of them advance the disgusting argument that PTSD from having to fight Vietnamese people is an excuse for racism.

    And the stuff about deplaning vets getting spat on is a MYTH. See the book The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam. The image of a black and white conflict between dirty leftist hippies and Vietnam vets is especially revisionist, considering how many of the vets were hippies themselves.

    I’m especially repulsed because I was once in serious danger of being attacked by a Vietnam vet with serious mental problems… it was a weird, random encounter in a coffee shop. He started yelling “gook” at me and saying I shouldn’t have been allowed in the country. Guess who was the first person to defend me and get between us? Another Vietnam vet. There is no excuse. Mental illness is a separate issue, and attacking racism does not take away from believing that mental illness deserves better treatment.

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 10:02 am ¶

15. RCHOUDH wrote:

    This is unfortunate…here in America the Vietnam War has been reframed to become only America’s tragedy nothing more. You’ll almost never read or hear about the experiences and tragedies faced by you know the VIETNAMESE who had to endure far more suffering during this senseless and brutal war than the Americans. The controversy over this memorial is testament to this continuing belief in America that Americans had it the worst in Vietnam and not you know the local population.

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 10:56 am ¶

16. Donald wrote:

    I think racism and similar othering is a common result of military conditioning. There is great emphasis placed on ‘us’ as opposed to ‘them’ with ‘them’ being the enemy, rival units or civilians as the particular circumstances warrent. Those Kansas veterans who object see the memorial gardens as their space to be shared with those who had the same experience of being conscripted into fighting a war in
    a foreign country.

    I remember it used to be the practice in Britain to exclude veterans of some commonwealth regiments from remembrance day parades. About 30 years ago there was a big fuss and the policy was changed over
    the objections of some ex-servicemen. More recently the public got upset by the Ministry of Defence treating veterans of the Gurka regiment less well than other British veterans and even the tabloid
    press objected to the racism involved. That’s not to say there aren’t serious issues with recruiting soldiers from an impoverished third world country and their officers from Britain.

    Personally I’m very uncomfortable with the whole business of military memorials. They erase the experiences of all the victims of war who didn’t wear a military uniform.

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 3:35 pm ¶

17. Joy wrote:

    Lembcke’s book may attempt to refute the spitting myths but it’s pretty safe to say a lot of vets received a hostile reception when they returned home.

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 6:58 pm ¶

18. TN wrote:

    @ 14. atlasien – you know what’s REALLY FUNNY? the only one time I was called a “gook” was on a supposed anti-racist site. Their rationale was that a) they didn’t know I was Vietnamese and b) apparently “gook” was used a lot in the Korean War which preceded the VN War by a few years. I think I was just too angry and insulted to return to argue. I gave up… if that is what an anti-racist site would say, I have no hope for the rest of the racist internet…

    The pretty pathetic side of supposed anti-racist but happily abelist and sexist Australia – http://www.fightdemback.org/ – I do not bother with them anymore *sigh*

    Posted 12 Aug 2009 at 8:36 pm ¶

19. Reiter wrote:

    Speaking as an Asian-American member of the active duty armed forces, this pisses me off but neither does it surprise me.

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 4:27 am ¶

20. weez wrote:

    @TN: You were never called a ‘gook’ on FDB. That would never have passed my notice. Try again.

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 4:42 am ¶

21. Free wrote:

    atlasien – Thank you, thank you for so thoroughly refuting A.G.’s comment. As soon as I read the spitting on veterans allegation I thought, why is this person saying this, it isn’t even true. When does myth become lie? After evidence is published, discussed in the media and across
    the internet and myth is still passed on as truth, when is o’k to say –

    Hey you, stop lying!

    This shameful, racist and ethnocentric incident (yet another!), reminds me of the US Vietnam war veterans protest over the selection of Maya Ying Lin’s design for the Vietnam war memorial. Some of the protest was over her being Chinese-American AND a young woman (!). I watched a video about this in an art class and everyone in the class was astonished by the hate. It’s horrible when anyone experiences war, but cosign with the Moderator, that is not excuse for racism (and sexism too!). If severe trauma is a plausible rationale for racism, then millions of people have carte blanche to hate every “white” person on the planet.

    @khinky – I don’t understand the mentality but I’m hoping that it’s merely due to the American vets being old and stubborn

    Young vets, from both Iraq wars (why don’t we every say US War against insert country here since the US military is the invading army?), are known to say towel head and sand nigger. Acts of racism by US vets has very little to do with age.

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 1:10 pm ¶

22. Viet wrote:

    As a Viet guy (1.5 generation), I feel sad for Vietnamese people. I think they have been duped by America. 10% of the Vietnamese population died in that war.

    Only 58000 American died. This shows how much disdain American have for Vietnamese vet. Now it is the same story with Iraq.

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 1:50 pm ¶

23. TN wrote:

    @ 20. weez – yes, it happened… apparently it was “accidental” and it was about 5 years ago and the memory is still fresh and still very insulting. Fight dem back is a boys’ club (if I remember correctly, quite happily homophobic as well) and it was most defnitely NOT a comfortable space for me. Maybe you (the org) have changed within the past 5 years, I haven’t gone back so maybe I’m speaking of something that is not the case anymore.

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 6:26 pm ¶

24. Nick wrote:

    Slightly off-topic but Gurkha soldiers who served in the British armed forces have finally won the right to settle in the U.K.

    About bloody time.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8060607.stm

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 7:06 pm ¶

25. TN wrote:

    oh hang on…

    @weez wrote: “Try again.”

    did you mean try again, as in you guys have improved your brand of anti-racism OR are you calling me a liar?

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 7:26 pm ¶

26. Jess wrote:

    @Free — Maya Lin got the last laugh, though, as her design is widely imitated in Vietnam War memorials all over — the simple black slab design has become almost standard.

    Also, back in 1997, there was a traveling exhibit of the memorial (1/2 sized IIRC) that got a lot of positive press. And the vets I saw everywhere it stopped loved the thing and were happy to have it there, so these things can change for the better.

    Maya Lin’s crime was altering the narrative of war memorials, and the fact that her ideas are now so popular–think of just about every war memorial built since then, in pretty widely separated places — well, props to Lin. She had one hell of an impact. More than a lot of people who aren’t old enough to remember realize.

    Posted 13 Aug 2009 at 7:58 pm ¶

27. Lxy wrote:

    [Mod Note - This comment is too far off topic, and is disrespectful to veterans to boot. We don't allow people to excuse racism because of military service, but there is no need to be deliberately inflammatory. This is not the place for political grandstanding. - LDP]

    Posted 14 Aug 2009 at 1:06 am ¶

28. Matthew Tran wrote:

    To our dear American Veterans (VA) as the whole and to those VA members in Wichita, Kansas in particular.

    - As a field grade Vietnamese officer who was trained at Fort Benning, GA, and worked at this school (1956-57)

    - As a member of the VN Special Forces Command, I was also a Vietnamese officer who worked side-by-side with the 5th US Special Forces Group. Then I was instructor to John F. Kennedy for Special Warfare School (fort Bragg, NC –1965?) to train the 1st US Special Forces Group prior to be sent over Vietnam for replacement of the 5th US Special Force Group for re-deployment back to U.S mainland.

    – Back in Vietnam, as far as I can remember all the time (1963) I worked, fought, ate (shared) Vietnamese food and slept, etc .. side by side with fellow American advisor when I was Battalion commander of the 2nd ARVN, 14th Regiment, 9th VN Division, I did not hear any complaint from any American advisor then. They didn’t ask to be SEPARATED from us in the field. They appreciated what we shared with them.

    – I still remember there was the times when it didn’t rain but poured, my bodyguard would hange a hammock (between trees) under a spreading individual tent for me to sleep over night ..dry, my American advisor would be happy to sleep UNDER my hammock – with my bodyguard’s help by gathering some brushes and placing them underneath my hammock then spreading his individual tent (poncho) over these brushes right under my hammock to sleep … This American advisor appreciated my Vietnamese guard’s intelligence to give him a chance to keep himself dry ..
    By the way, that American friend did not PROTEST and DEMAND for SEGREGATION.

    -There was something that we — my fellow American advisor and I — would not be proud to mention: Whenever we had a chance to sneak out to a little town to have some fun at local bars, we did.
    By the way, my American friend DID NOT PROTEST and demanded to be SEGREGATED.

    – We realized it’s not too dignified to mention those moments but in consideration of what president Clinton did it daily at his Oval Office (White House), I can’t see why can’t we ?

    – The most important thing that every member of VA and the Americans as the whole should know:
    About over a half century ago, when there was a little war in that remote area, the South Vietnamese government under President Ngo Dinh Diem DID NOT ask the US government to get involved, but the US government under President J.K. Kennedy DEMANDED to be involved with the idea to occupy Camranh Bay. President Diem REFUSED. What has happened to HIM and his brother?

    With authorization from President Kennedy, CIA paid some handsome money to some Vietnamese shameless generals to mount a successful plot and kill them both !!

    Later the US got its wishes: got Camranh Bay and a free hand to run the war for the whole South Vietnam.

    Unfortunately, the South Vietnamese and their BIG brothers did not win the war and had run with their tails between their hind legs from the Vietnamese communists and we, Vietnamese had to run for our lives, seeking refuge, settlement in the US by NEED and not by CHOICE.

    Looking back to all the time both the South Vietnamese and their BIG American brothers had been together thru thick and thin, now the new Vietnamese Americans have good life in this new land, they decided to show their appreciation to their BIG brothers for helping them to fight for the noble CAUSE: Freedom for Vietnam by building a Vietnamese American memorial at its RIGHT place in Wichita and those local VA veteran bastards refused ??

    I don’t understand it.

    Matthew Tran.

    Posted 14 Aug 2009 at 11:39 am ¶

29. Ay-Leen wrote:

    Another Vietnamese reader voicing her dismay about this article.

    This reminds me of a story– a couple of months ago, I went back home to Massachusetts to pay respects during the anniversary of my grandfather’s death. My family brought a Saigon flag to place on the grave while we offered incense, but then removed it at the end to take home. I asked why. Because, one of my aunts explained, they had a mounted Saigon flag at the grave, but it was vandalized.

    So…yeah. :/

    Posted 18 Aug 2009 at 1:34 am ¶

30. TN wrote:

    @Ay-Leen – that is horrible! people are so ignorant! the Saigon flag is the flag of the Free VN and people vandalise it? these idiots do not know who’s friend or foe and hate everyone.

    Posted 23 Aug 2009 at 12:54 am ¶