Black Booty Body Politics

by Latoya Peterson


Whose Pussy Is This?
Now I have to ask this question
Cuz you mothafuckas keep disrespectin’ my shit
In every line that your lame asses spit
I’m forced to hear about my pussy
That is always on sale
A hot retail item
wrapped in plastic
for $12.99
And this shit is drastic
Bcuz everyone thinks they too have ownership of something that belongs to me
And I do not agree with this [...]

—”Whose Pussy Is This?” by Chyann L. Oliver, published in Home Girls Make Some Noise

It all started with a note, surreptitiously passed to me in health class in 9th grade. My friend poked me across the aisle, and handed me a bit of notebook paper. In pencil, the note read, “Toya got a big ole butt, oh yeah!”

Sigh.

I first became aware of the male gaze when I was twelve years old. I nearly jumped out of my skin when I realized that a guy pulled up behind me on a busy highway, inquiring if I needed a ride somewhere and telling me how pretty I was. Until that point, I thought men only catcalled girls who wanted attention. I had friends who wore tight skirts and low cut tops and makeup, all things that were generally forbidden in my mother’s household. My outfit that day had passed muster with her – a blue baby tee, wide leg jeans (as went the suburban style in the 90s), white reebok classics. I looked my age. And yet, for some reason, men reacted to me differently.

The note slipped to me in 9th grade was the beginning of the realization that despite my best efforts, the most remarked upon part of my body would be my ass. More polite people would talk about my figure and point out all the benefits of being a classic hourglass. Less polite people would quote song lyrics at me (Whoop, whoop, pull over, that ass is too fat!) or make rude remarks about what they would like to do with my ass. It never seemed to matter if I was a size 10 or a size 18 – my body shape would not be denied, no matter how many pounds I packed on.

Over time, I learned different strategies to cope with the attention I received. A large part of coping was reclaiming my body and learning to embrace my curves as a part of my own sexuality. In order to do that, I had to learn to separate the ideas projected on to me by others and understand how I felt about my own body. I discovered the affirming power of hip-hop – as well as its destructive objectification of the black female form. Just as Mark Anthony Neal informs his feminism with the acknowledgment it can be difficult to reconcile feminist principles with heterosexual male desire, it can be difficult to fuse cultural beauty standards, popular perceptions of the female form, and still come out with something resembling a healthy sense of the sexual self.


Reclamation

Sir-Mix-a-Lot penned the definitive hip-hop tribute to the booty back in 1992.

And while the line, “red beans and rice didn’t miss her” is still one of my all time favorites, I want to examine a different part of Mix-a-Lot’s song. During the song intro, you’ll notice a white girl talking to her friend Becky. It’s this speech that draws my interest:

Oh, my, god. Becky, look at her butt.
It is so big. *scoff* She looks like,
one of those rap guys’ girlfriends.
But, you know, who understands those rap guys? *scoff*
They only talk to her, because,
she looks like a total prostitute, ‘kay?
I mean, her butt, is just so big.
I can’t believe it’s just so round, it’s like,
out there, I mean – gross. Look!
She’s just so … black!

Laying aside for the moment that a large posterior is a “black thing,” the other assumptions in the monologue are ones I’ve often seen applied to black women. Our asses and bodies are “low class” or pornified, in contrast to a more high class (or high fashion) image of a woman – to be thin. Curvy women’s physiques are considered nasty or gross. Even the simple act of donning a pencil skirt or a button down shirt becomes sexualized if you are curvaceous. This is one of the things that made Mix-a-Lot’s song so appealing – he acknowledged all of those negative perceptions at the beginning of the song and then preceded to cut a track saying that haters can go to hell.

Hip-Hop provides a kind of refuge for us curvy women. Our forms are often lauded and celebrated, by both our selves and by others. One of the major albums for me in my high school years was Trina’s Diamond Princess. Trina’s cocky flow and obvious pride in her body served as a series of anthems for me, particularly when confronted with the drastically different beauty standards my white classmates accepted as ideals. While her lyrics were still problematic, I was able to lose myself in the overall spirit of the song.

I learned to adopt her swagger as my own, and continued the practice of cherry picking what I liked and ignoring the rest of the lyrical content. I was able to adapt any song to my own needs, freeing up one aspect of my sexuality while overlooking the intent of the song.

Last summer, I found myself heavily into the DJ Laz remix “Move Shake Drop” (note: this video displays the lyrics). Now, I caught myself on my way to a feminist conference singing “I like booty and tig ol’ bitties/booty and tig ol’ bitties/booty and tig ol’ bitties/booty and tig ol’ bitties!

The absurdity of the whole situation was not lost on me.

In an article soon to be published in Bitch Magazine, I convened a group of fabulous progressive women to discuss why exactly we were able to move on the dance floor to misogynistic lyrics, yet still function in a feminist fashion. After 21 pages of chat discussions with Raquel Rivera, Gwendolyn Pough, Marisol LeBron, Kelly Zen-Yie Tsai, and M.Dot, I was no closer to an answer. However, one of the common themes that emerged was the idea that we use the hip-hop space in ways in which we need to, and much of that space includes the complex navigation of sexuality. Our creations of the space are wholly our own, but they can be influenced by outside forces.

Like male rappers and their sexual desires.

In addition to female lyricists who love themselves, male rappers are often the ones penning the lyrics to many a dance floor tribute – and featuring women whose bodies inspire tribute. The picture gracing this post is of Ki Toy Johnson, a video model most famous for her work in OutKast’s “The Way You Move” video.

I remember watching this video and being awestruck. Here, finally, was someone modeled as beautiful that I actually wanted to look like. While being confronted daily with images of supermodels and actresses in the glossy pages of the magazines I read, very rarely did I feel any compulsion to look like the girls in the magazine. Why would I? Their reality was far from my own. Even in my best shape, I was around a size 10. As far as I was concerned, girls like my best friend who were naturally size 0s or 2s were more or less born that way – no diet or exercise regime can permanently alter what nature gave you. No matter what, you are always working with your own body.

Moreover, a lot of the ideals represented things I didn’t want to be. I didn’t want to be white. I didn’t want to be skinny. I don’t want my legs and arms to be the same size. I enjoyed my curves. And Ki Toy Johnson represented a completely different ideal, to be 100% toned and still curvaceous. Not only did Johnson represent a different ideal, she represented one that appeared to be attainable. Her body is similar to my own. I found myself thinking If only I put in the effort, the hours at the gym…I too could attain that physique, become part of the ideal. And in some way, men affirming that this ideal was indeed desirable and wanted helped to go a long way toward undoing some of the narratives surrounding fuller figured women in my own mind.

So, when Dodai penned her piece on the women in Straight Stuntin, I could understand, partially, where she was coming from. Just as she admired the bodies of the women in those pages, I admired the physique of Ki Toy Johnson. It is wonderful to see a different type of ideal presented. It is wonderful to see a curvier body being recognized as beautiful.

But at what point do we begin fetishizing our own exploitation in our desire for representation?

Exploitation

Much of the history of the Black female body commodification has been founded on the general logic that the black female body equals sexuality and sexuality for women equals their worth. From “Hottentot Venus to Josephine Baker to the modern-day “Video Vixen,” the Black female body at one time served as the site of projection for White moral fears and sexual fantasies, and it now does the same for Black audiences. Such projections have continuously and consistently informed Black female identity in the Western context and further affect the ways in which women of African descent value and/or devalue themselves. As a result, the conceptualization of the Black female body as an inherently sexualized body has historically and contemporarily affected perceptions of women of African descent in both local and global media. [...]

— “Performing Venus ~ From Hottentot to Video Vixen” by Kalia Adia Story, originally published in Home Girls Make Some Noise

In the quest to develop a healthy sense of sexuality, we are prone to societal input and norms as a way from which to understand our behaviors. So while I may personally celebrate my curves, thanks to music videos and centuries of dehumanization, my body is often seen as the property of others. While many people voice appreciation for my body and how it is shaped, both men and women often feel as though the simple presence of my ass allows for them to take whatever action they see fit.

When my best friend threw me a Bollywood/Hollywood party for my 22nd birthday, she enlisted the help of a family friend so we could properly wear our saris. The other girls passed without comment. When it was my turn to be wrapped, she checked out my gluteus maximus and declared I was lucky to have such a high and round rump, before giving it an appreciative slap while tucking in the folds of cloth. This was not new behavior. Women in my family would playfully slap my ass while trying to figure out “how I stole all the butt in the family,” or other girls in gym locker rooms would somehow be unable to stop staring at my ass while I changed from towel to pants.

And don’t get me started on the liberties men think they can take. Most of the oft-ignored hollering takes the form of “Hey, girl with the big ass…you know I’m talking to you!”

This idea that my behind has somehow become communal property is intertwined with the history of race and gender in our society.

In her essay “Performing Venus ~ From Hottentot to Video Vixen,” Kalia Adia Story notes:

Being told such things as, “bend over and touch the floor” to “It must be your ass cuz it ain’t yo face…I need a Tip Drill.” Black women continue to be rendered and ordered to move their assets and figures for the entertainment and arousal of male and female desire.

I include female desire here because within a capitalist, patriarchal and racist society, Black women have just as much invested in the exploitation and destruction of the Black female body as Black men do. While watching commercial hip-hop music videos, Black women have the ability to Other Video Vixens. By viewing commercial hip-hop music videos, Black women secure their own sexual performances as virtuous and pure, and indulge in the notion that the Video Vixen is not a figment of the imagination at all, but a reflection of a real woman who lacks the moral capability to make productive choices in their lives. In addition, within a capitalist, patriarchal and racist society, black women are socialized to see misogyny as erotic. [...]

The othering extends beyond the realm of music videos. In some ways, the possession of a body marked other allows people to project whatever ideas and fantasies they have upon you. It is an image distorted through the lens of pop culture. Story continues:

The Video Vixen, and the “tricks” she performs with her body, not only helps to make albums sell and videos play in rotation, but it also affects the identity, self-esteem, and body image of Black girls and women. Her body, particularly her behind, has not only been stereotyped as the body that all Black women have, but has been projected as the standard body type for all black women. Thus, because of the standards projected by the Video Vixen image/body type and the subsequent aesthetic and sexual value placed upon their buttocks, many women, particularly those of African descent, who do not have large buttocks believe that they are somehow “abnormal” and to a certain degree do not feel as if their bodies are Black.”

This is a major point. As it so often goes with stereotypes, there can only ever be one representation of the other. In this case, it is the idea that all black women have large behinds, and more to the point, desire them. As a result, one can read all manner of studies conducted through a white lens, that will indicate that black women do not have body issues or weight issues they way that white women do.

In the anthology, Colonize This!, writer Sirena J. Riley deconstructs some of these ideas in her essay “The Black Beauty Myth.” She vividly describes her struggles with weight, bulimia, and eating disorders, and the conflicting messages she received from her own family as to what was “ideal”:

For a few years, I actually did eat and exercise at what I’d consider a comfortable rate. But after that year of intense exercising, it was impossible to maintain my significant weight loss. I just didn’t have the time, since it wasn’t built into my schedule anymore. I settled in at around a size 12, although at the time, I still wanted to be a “perfect” size 8. This actually was the most confusing time for me. I kept telling everyone that I still wanted to lose twenty pounds. Even my family was divided on this one. My grandmother told me that I was fine the way I was now, that I shouldn’t gain any weight, but I didn’t need to lose any more. She didn’t want me to be fat but thought it was good that I was curvy. Meanwhile, my grandfather told me that if I lost twenty more pounds, he’d give me one thousand dollars to go shopping for new clothes. And my mom thought that my skirts were too short and my tops too low cut, even though as a child, she has prompted me to lose weight by saying if I stayed fat, I wouldn’t be able to wear pretty clothes when I grew up. What the hell did these people want from me?

She then explains why the marginalization of women of color in discussions of body image is so problematic:

Discussions of body image that bother to include black women recognize that there are different cultural aesthetics for black and white women. Black women scholars and activists have attacked the dominance of whiteness in the media and illuminated black women’s tumultuous history with hair and skin color. The ascension of black folks into the middle class has positioned them in a unique and often difficult position, trying to hold on to cultural ties while also trying to be a part of what the white bourgeois has created as the American Dream. This not only permeates into capitalist material goals, but body image as well, creating a distinctive increase in black women’s boy dissatisfaction.

White women may dominate pop culture images of women, but black women aren’t completely absent. While self-depreciating racism is still a factor in the way black women view themselves, white women give themselves too much credit when they assume black women still want to look like them. Unfortunately, black women have their own beauty ideals to fall perpetually short of. The representation of black women in Hollywood is sparse, but among the most famous loom such beauties as Halle Berry, Jada Pinkett Smith, Nia Long, Iman, and Angela Basset. In the music scene there are the young women of Destiny’s Child, Lauryn Hill, and Janet Jackson. Then, of course, there’s is model Naomi Campbell and everyone’s favorite cover girl, Tyra Banks. Granted, these women don’t necessarily represent the waif look of heroin chic that plagues the pages of predominately white fashion and entertainment magazines, but come on. They are still a hard act to follow. [...]

As much as we get praised for loving our full bodies, many young white women would rather be dead than wear a size 14. They nod their heads and say how great it is that we black women can embrace our curves, but they don’t want to look like us. They don’t adopt our presumably more generous beauty ideals. White women have even told me how lucky black women are that our men love and accept our bodies the way they are. I’ve never heard a white woman say she’s going to take a cue from black women and gain a few pounds, however. In a way it is patronizing, because they’re basically saying, “It’s OK for you to be fat, but not me. You’re black. You’re different.”

This idea of difference is seized upon by well meaning women (of all races) who seem to think that black cultural norms are like a get-out-of-beauty-jail free card. Though as Riley notes, they do not want to look like us, there is a comforting idea in the myth that somehow, the idea of “thickness” is a much more “enlightened” way of looking at the female physique. However, this is not the case.

As Alex Alvarez wrote back in 2008:

More and more Anglo women are exposed to the idea that “thick” is a compliment and allows women to break free from the slim body associated with high fashion, high culture and exclusivity. In reality, this is merely trading one set of handcuffs for another. In the end, regardless of the intent, it all adds up to misogyny and using language as a way of demonstrating superiority over the female body. Case in point: This helpful guide to defining “thickness.” [NSFW]

The idea of thickness is in itself dictating an ideal that is unattainable for most. Far from the construction of fatness, thickness connotes a certain type of body that is acceptable. It is categorized by a full body tone, nice sized breasts, a small waist, a flat stomach, a shapely behind, and nice looking thighs. That is a lot of body parts to get coordinated. The idea of thickness also erases black women who do not have the type of body that is lauded in music videos. Two of my close friends are envied by their white coworkers for their frames. My best friend, as I mentioned above, is naturally a size zero or two, with a petite stature. My other friend is a tall and glamorous size four. They jokingly lament how they have the perfect body – if they had been born white. As black women, however, they’d each like another twenty pounds and a few inches of hips and ass.

Ideals are fickle, shifting things.

Reconciliation

Even after my mother married at twenty-one, she continued to have several “boyfriends.” There had always been men who coveted her, and she used this to her advantage at a time and in a country where dark-skinned poor women like her had few opportunities outside of telephone operator, secretary, or teacher to make money. Colonialism, imperialism, and white supremacy created an economic seperation between light-skinned Black women and white women as smart women of leisure and dark-skinned black women as thick-headed laborers. [...]

The line is thin between empowerment of “femme” and its potential self-destructiveness. I wonder if it was like this for my mother. She turned to sex work out of necessity. This is not something I have to do. Femme brings with it what we have learned about what it means to be female and woman in this country and culture. As many times as I have felt empowered by it, I have also found the power of my femme affect slipping away, leaving instead the ways I feel defeated, inept, unable to handle difficult situations. Rationally, I know these are the messages of the oppressors and colonizers. Still, I have competed with other femmes for the attention of butches and transgender men. I have both claimed and loathed the titles of Jezebel and Hoochie Mama after having an affair with a woman who already had a wife. And even though this particular relationship was damaging, my femme self finds pride in having been able to steal this woman away from her partner, if only for a moment. Sometimes I hate that part of me. [...]

My femme dance is reassuring to men. But there is also power, art, objective, resistance in it.

—”Femme-Inism”, Paula Austin, Colonize This!

I highly doubt there is ever an easy way to reconcile the sexual self with what is influenced by society. Or to reconcile our love/hate relationships many women have with our bodies. When we engage in behavior that is seemingly contradictory, to me, it’s just a way of coping. This is why many women use the realm of lyrics and music videos to tap into their own sexuality while still rejecting the sexist messages promoted. Or why one may wish to dress to accentuate their own curves while rejecting the idea that the shape of their body makes them community property.

It’s a complicated question, as life so often is. What one woman finds empowering, others may find limiting. We like to default to the idea that a woman’s choices are all the matters, but we also ignore that fact that our choices are not made in a vacuum. These ideas may seem contradictory, but they are not. A more apt way to describe how we inform and interact with our sexuality is to look at our sexual behavior as a flow chart, with a series of inputs, outputs, and results that shape who we are.

How do we form a healthy sense of self, of body, and sexuality? Who do we look toward as role models and ideals? How do we learn to love our selves? The paths to understanding are as varied as the women seeking them.

And there are no simple answers.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Black Booty Body Politics | Adios Barbie on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:51 pm

    [...] Racialicious.com [...]

  2. ‘Curvy’ « Diary of a Nobody on 13 Jul 2009 at 10:37 am

    [...] ‘Curvy’ Jump to Comments Two articles got me thinking one a more flipptant musing on the usage of the word ‘curvy’ to mean ‘fat’ and another in depth and fascinating study of ‘black booty politics’ [...]

  3. 109 of 250– And me in an (actual) corset (kinda) « The Pretty Year on 30 Jul 2009 at 10:38 pm

    [...] Then I saw the pictures and I thought I’d make a joke about how you can clearly see my corset– the corset that People on the Internet tell me I am wearing 24/7 because I would totally choose to have a figure that makes pants-shopping a joke, and it’s impossible to have an itty-bitty waist and a round thing in your face and it’s not like there’s a song about it or anything. [...]

Comments

  1. Tracey wrote:

    Excellent post and very well put. I find it hard to buy into the idea that the depictions of black female bodies are empowering or offering an alternative b/c they still leave out a lot of women and are hard to attain.
    “It is categorized by a full body tone, nice sized breasts, a small waist, a flat stomach, a shapely behind, and nice looking thighs. That is a lot of body parts to get coordinated. The idea of thickness also erases black women who do not have the type of body that is lauded in music videos.”
    Precisely!! The figure lauded as the ideal black form in videos and such still meets the 36-24-36 (or whatever) proportionment. Someone did their anthropological dissertation on body ideals and found while larger sizes were more accepted by many black respondents (even then 14/16 seemed to be the “limit”) they still expected women to fit proportions along those lines (36-24-36, 40-28-40, 44-32-44, etc). Basically the hourglass figure.

  2. cocolamala wrote:

    i think what is empowering is not the actual 36-24-36 standard, but rather the assertion of an alternative to the white beauty standard that is empowering.

    we can still critique the alternative standards and evaluate them for their exploitive effects

    it is important to recognize the need for, and the actual existence of, more than one standard of beauty

    however, we don’t have to rely on lad mags or rap songs as the sole source of our standards.

    i think that’s where discomfort withthe jezebel post comes from. they got that the lad mag operates from an alternative beauty standard (yes! that’s cool!) but some commenters don’t recognize that even in light of a WOC-focused beauty standard, the magazine spread still reproduces mainstream sexism that still needs to be critiqued.

  3. Tamara wrote:

    “The idea of thickness is in itself dictating an ideal that is unattainable for most. Far from the construction of fatness, thickness connotes a certain type of body that is acceptable. It is categorized by a full body tone, nice sized breasts, a small waist, a flat stomach, a shapely behind, and nice looking thighs. That is a lot of body parts to get coordinated. ”

    So, so true! I’ve pointed out to friends that black women often have a different type of body image problem, in that we can have fat, but only in the “right” places. It doesn’t make the problem any easier.

    Like you, I have an hourglass figure and a size eight is my “perfect” size. Right now I’m at about a size 12/14, and my friends can’t understand why I want to lose 20 pounds. But to me, being a size eight allows me to still hold on to my curves without being considered fat. Unfortunately, my mindset is this way because I’ve been praised all my life for having “such a nice shape.” However, we all know that you can’t work off just one body part and not another. I want to lose this tummy I have, but I know that’s not possible without losing my hips and my thighs. So where does that leave me? I feel like I’m developing an eating and exercise disorder from all of this. Ugh.

  4. Seattle Slim wrote:

    This post right here!

    Thank you for putting into words part of my quandary with rap music, my physique (I have an hourglass shape {with work} but not much of a rump), etc.

    I will use “Back That Azz Up” by Juvenile. I am all for positive, well written hip-hop, I’m all for that. But when that song comes on, along with Sir Mix-a-lot’s, something just activates.

    Funny, when Mr. Slim (WM) and I go to a club that is predominantly white, and they play certain songs like the aforementioned, and I start to do my thing, a lot of people, especially WW, stare at what I am doing to Mr. Slim and scoff, or try to imitate and fail, or secretly admire, whatever… But it’s amazement, positive or negative.

    I think I gleaned a lot of the same points you did Latoya because we grew up in the same time.

    I was a fan of Trina, Kim’s and Foxxy’s earliest work because they, in my opinion, were sexually empowered, just wanton enough, just lewd enough, but just strong enough to hurt you (or to get their “mans an’ ‘em” to do it).

    I think it is hard to eradicate some of these elements like the Straight Stuntin’ and these new rap songs about BW because in the mainstream media, our bodies are still not considered the norm. Actually, curvy women period. Jason Whitlock derided Serena William’s body as being too fat. The only thing FAT on that girl is her behind, which while doesn’t work for me, looks great on her. Plenty of men agree she should be skinny like the less effective Anna Kournikova. We can’t win for losing.

    If there was balance, and acceptance, we would not need to find refuge or seek solace in guilty pleasures.

    Are they the most positive songs? No. I don’t like most of them (She Got a Donk? Really?) But there are some that I dig, and I’m not guilty about that. Balance is good. I may work out like a beast, but I do love the occasional blizzard. I guess music follows the same thought process.

  5. Katie wrote:

    Great post, Latoya – deftly combines the personal and bigger political narratives at work.

  6. Phil Deeze wrote:

    Although Michelle Obama is hardly in the body-type category of today’s video vixens, some white people have gotten it in their mind that either a) her toned, bare arms in her outfits are offensive or b) she’s “too tall” and “mannish” looking. Those sentiments I find rather disgusting and distasteful.

    It’s like black women can’t win for losing out here. If your booty is too fat like Serena Williams (per the MSM,) then you’re too tall like Michelle Obama and that makes some men feel inadequate.

    What is going on in this world, man?

  7. GueraLola wrote:

    what about just accept women for who their are? Or just by personality or accomplishments? yeah people go how ” big” Serena William she is supposed to be “big” she is an athlete, she need muscle. There is not such thing as a empowering “beauty standard” to me the grass is away greener on the other side .

  8. Tami wrote:

    Thanks for this, LaToya. Great post!

    The black beauty ideal is as much a tyranny as the white one, because it is an IDEAL that forces most women to feel inadequate. Count me as another one of those hourglasses sans booty. I’ve spent a lot of time lamenting my lack of a high, round onion, and feeling inadequate against the black, beauty standard. (Thank God for for my hips and thighs.)

    Whenever women are expected to have IDEAL
    bodies–no matter how you define that–there is a problem.

  9. trooper6 wrote:

    Latoya, have you read Disidentifications by Jose Esteban Munoz? It is pretty great, and it talks in detail about the ways in which people work to find empowerment in otherwise negative representations when they are the only representations around. Good work.

    And GueraLola, you ask “What about just accept women for who they are? Or just by personality or accomplishments?” Well, that’s great for my friends and colleagues. But for people I am in a physical relationship in, I want them to desire my physical body. I want them think my body is hot and sexy. If I dated someone who only liked me for my personality and accomplishments, but wasn’t all that excited about my body…it would be very damaging for me…especially considering that I have a…complicated…body.

    I don’t think the answer to restrictive beauty standards is to keep up the mind/body split, but this time thinking only of the mind. I think of some 70s political lesbians who were not sexally attracted to women, but entered into relationships with women anyway, because they felt it politically better. And then had either no sex lives, or unsatisfying sex lives.

    Rather than being sexless bodies and sexless beings, I want to be honored as a sexual being and a sexual body, as well as for being political, funny, smart, and so on.

    I can have my body objectified…and I have had it done. But I have also been objectified for my mind, or my accomplishments, or my class background, or that I am a musician, or… none of that is better.

    Holistic self. Mind and body unified. That’s where I want to be.

  10. LCrawfty wrote:

    I really enjoyed this piece, it was so thoughtful, personal, and comprehensive. To maybe take it in another direction, I am a white woman with a “bubble butt” big, round, and stuck out. I am not really large anywhere other than my butt. I got teased a lot for it in the 5th grade and when I entered puberty I began a long history of eating disorder behaviors. When I was 17 I started working and studying around many more men of color and I found out I was being talked about, specifically for my butt. I was really surprised, this was the first time it was presented as a positive. Then in college I got the same kind of street hollering from men about my butt, men in cars etc. I had to wonder if there was another element to it because I was a white woman with an atypical look. Also, girls in my school would tell me that they loved my butt. Its put me in kind of an odd position where I feel like guilty for getting this kind of attention for having what is described as a “black ass” and i`m annoyed that we live in society where women are judged on their butts so much to begin with.

  11. Shermy wrote:

    OMG Latoya, I thought I was the only one!!!!!! Thank you for sharing your “booty troubles,” for lack of a better term. I experience the same on the daily and it has made me extremely self conscious. I’m glad that someone understands what it’s like to have an hourglass figure and big behind and have everyone talk about your body like there is no person in it!!!! I’m sort of at a loss about how we do go about building a healthy sense of self and sexuality amid the torrent of negativity, shame, guilt voyeurism, catcalls, etc. aimed at the black female body. That’s a ton of stuff to counter…..

  12. deathblossom wrote:

    I’ve never found the depictions of women in black music or lyrics affirming at all either, because it’s all grounded in sex. They’re not appreciating our body so much as they appreciate us not becoming snobby women with white aesthetics, that we’re staying true to what the people who produce them like. And much of the reason they like it is because it implies we’re much more sexually available – because we don’t care enough about our appearance to diet and exercise, this translates into being willing to perform each and every sex act under the sun and being content to fulfill their every need, being that black superwoman they don’t have to treat like a real human being (or like white women). There’s nothing affirming about that. This black women booty crap has never been about appreciating black women at all. It is all about the waiting and willing freak – even that picture you posted is. I don’t want to look that, I don’t want to be associated with it – ass all hanging out and barely clothed posing for some jerkoff to jerkoff to. All she’s doing is making it harder for me to walk around and actually be respected as a human being and not someone’s property, someone some douche cashier can legitimately detain at the register so he can ask me if I’m seeing anyone, can I give him my phone number, and if we can be “friends” for the two weeks I’m going to be in town . Why can’t we get some black curvaceous women shown with sophistication and without appealing to or being indebted to men? Until then, this fascination does me no favors in actually trying to form a real relationship.

  13. Jen wrote:

    GueraLola wrote: There is not such thing as a empowering “beauty standard”

    Agreed. Different does not mean better.

    Great piece, Latoya.

  14. cocolamala wrote:

    when i talk about alternative standards, i don’t mean making ppl live up to unrealistic ideals.

    i am talking about my parent explaining that having a booty didn’t mean i was fat, and that getting away from that particular clique of girls would help me a have better sense of my body image.

    i am talking about consoling my younger cousin during the summer when she lamented her darkening skin because it made her the target of teasing at her majority white camp. (i had to tell her that when I get tan, I love the way it makes the colors in my clothes pop)

    i am talking about my aunt explaining the “johnson gap” that i inherited, saying it leaves room in the jaw for your wisdom teeth, AND that in east africa, the gap is a sign of beauty.

    i am talking about a beauty standard that allows you to love how you’re made, that explains and loves your african, or otherwise non-european, features.

    the beauty standards in my family are built around our actual features. They, very importantly, were not based on what the girls at school thought, or what i read about hair and makeup in 17 magazine.

  15. LTP wrote:

    I don’t know if someone’s said this yet, but in the “Baby got Back” song, she doesn’t say “she’s just so… black”, she says, “She’s just so… blech!”. But because she says it with that ‘valley girl’ accent so it sounds like an ‘a’ sound instead of an ‘e’ sound. A few lyrics sites quote her as saying “black” but it’s intended to be a sound of disgust. :)

  16. theprettyyear wrote:

    Thank you thank you thank you.

    There’s no doubt that black women’s bodies have been commodified for everyone– white men, black men, white women… the list goes on. When you’re told your body doesn’t belong to you *anyway*, it’s not surprising that you might take a little comfort in the fact that someone, somewhere considers it attractive and not ugly or freakish.

    I have a very curvy body. I’m 5′2″ and about… 40-30-44. Though I’m not black, I firmly believe that the negative attention I DO get– and the treatment of my body as public property– is due in part to the fact that my body type is associated with WOC, particularly black women*. I think it’s hard, at this point, to separate the chicken from the egg when it comes to what kinds of bodies are seen as sexy/too sexy, hypersexual, primitive, racialized, othered, etc. No doubt black women had/have all kinds of nonsense projected onto their perceived “exaggerated secondary sex characteristics,” and then those characteristics became strongly associated with browner/poorer women, which made those bodies both more reviled and the objects of greater prurient fascination. See also Saartjie Baartman, etc.

    From a personal perspective as a woman who has spent nearly her entire life being told she was “inappropriately dressed” when she was wearing more conservative clothing than her peers, I am finally figuring out that you can’t win. So I’m trying to stop playing.

    I mean, frick– I had someone comment the other day that this outfit was “raunchy.” Sure, the skirt looks snug (it’s actually loose and bunching here), but the top is oversized and I’m covered from wrist to sternum to calf. Would they have said that to a smaller-hipped woman? A bigger-waisted one? Maybe if she were darker.

    As my blog began to attract more attention, I got all kinds of people telling me what an obscene body I had– indirectly (god forbid I show my hips! I clearly just need looser clothing) and straight up to my e-face.

    My *body*. Obscene. Sleazy. You know, contrary to the belief of the boys who snapped my bra straps, the shape of my body just IS. It doesn’t DO anything, let alone force people to have sex with it. Ugh.

    I had people calling me a freak, claiming I had to be wearing 14 corsets at once, and my friends (black) were like, LOL, white people– you can’t even take that seriously. It’s straight out of the intro to Baby Got Back. OMG Becky, look at her butt.

    So I’m considered “freakish” by white people (who are masters of disingenuousness when it comes to “complimenting” black women’s thickness, as you noted) because I’m okay with looking like a “total prostitute” (no matter how much clothing I’m wearing). But OTOH, I get more praise from some because I appear white/light. Like Shakira or Beyonce or Jennifer Lopez or Christina Hendricks, I’m marginally allowed to be “extreme” in my proportions (like most of my friends don’t have the same shape!) because my face, skin and hair don’t resemble Serena Williams’, who all of a sudden is ugly and mannish because she’s a darkskinned black woman.

    And it comes full-frickin’-circle. *eyeroll*

    *I’m not convinced that white women don’t have similar shapes– or at least that there aren’t a significant number of white women who do. But they are so shamed and bullied for it blah blah kyriarchy– god forbid they are proud of their “black/brown” figures– that I think their numbers are underestimated because they are more likely to hide under baggy/unflattering clothes or an “extra layer of fat” or starve their booties away/get breast reduction surgery, etc.

  17. Nadra wrote:

    Does anyone find it interesting that now “Baby Got Back” is associated with Cameron Diaz and “Charlie’s Angels.” So, even this song, which can be read as affirming, has been co-opted by the mainstream.

  18. A. wrote:

    Thickness is something that I did not get. I got shit from it from my white floormates my first year at Uni, largely because I don’t have a body that is thin or boyish enough to be suitable for white people, but my butt is actually quite flat. If I get attention from men, it’s because of my face, not my body.

  19. n wrote:

    Very good post!!

  20. ashlynn wrote:

    @theprettyyear: that inapproprietly dressed remark hit the nail on my head.

    As I touched on in the Jezebel/SS post, early on I was targeted for my hourglass body shape. I was surprised, to say the very least. Over time those initial comments only began to get worse, as the standard ass parade rap videos gained popularity. In order to feel not even so much comfortable, but physically safe going out, I would literally cross dress- my baggiest jeans, most shapeless hoodie, freaking TIMBS(and I’m a size 11 foot)- and STILL got crazy comments. At that point, I had to accept that my body was my body, and no amount of fabric would change that.

    That said, being a young woman w/ my figure still isn’t easy. On a shopping trip with my big brother and older, size 4 sister, she was able to pick out a variety of shorts, minis and tanks, while I got chastised for picking up a nice grey strapless dress that came to my knees. So, because I’m shapely, it’s crass or lewd to dress with attention to my form? Because like it or not, when you are curvy, clothes will most likely find ways to stick to you in all those places. However it gives no one the right to act as if they own your body, or have license to make comments as their stigmas deem fit.

    I’m also thinking back to that second season of Flavor of Love(yes, I watched it, no, let’s not go there) when Deelishis hit the scene. All future overexposure aside, there was an episode where the contestants were working a diner; Deelishis, while serving a customer, leaned over and obviously, the camera got a gratuitous ass shot. Now, did she plan that? No? When you have a booty, it happens all the time. But does that give anyone carte blanche to be sexually suggestive towards her, or declare that she’s a slut or a ho or a freak? Absolutely not. The lines of respect really need to be redrawn, especially when it comes to black women and body image….

  21. ashlynn wrote:

    And regarding the “thickness guide” link, all women have some sort of cellulite, and if it were something that could be totally blasted away with a single pill or treatment, no woman would have it. Another brick in the wall that is ridiculous body expectation set upon women by men.

  22. Kjen wrote:

    Good post! But I am mad at myself for scrolling down that thicikness test page LOL

    I’m glad how you stated explicitly how the “brickhouse” figure is held up as an ideal for black women. I read a lot of fitness/health/diet mags and blogs and when there is an inevitable article about ‘why are black women so fat’, someone tends to always theorize that if black people weren’t just so accepting of fat, then black women would get it into their heads that their shapes/weight is unacceptable and would lose weight HAH!
    While growing up in Atlanta – usually in majority black settings, it was made clear which females (and males) were considered to be ’shapely’ (read – an acceptable size and sexy) and which were just plain fat. While guys were given more leeway in the weight category, they were also teased, insulted and derided once they were deemed unacceptably large.
    But it seems as if the nuances of this distinction is never made in mainstream discussions of black people and weight/shape. It’s as if they think, just because black people don’t revere the same exact white ideal, then we must have NO standards whatsoever.

  23. GueraLola wrote:

    @ theprettyyear You are not a freak, dear .( I hope that didn’t sound weird) you look lovely in the your pictures. I had/have such a body complex so when people tell me a look cute I have trouble believing them and suspicious when boys try to flirt with me. DSo when someone tells me I have a nice ass I have mixed emotions. people just need to keep in mind women come in different sizes and that OUR BODIES cannot be pigeonholed. Please DO MANKIND as favor, be Respectful when a woman bends down or walks down the street.

  24. cocolamala wrote:

    the bustle is related to the awareness of saartje baartman in victorian society — i find that so fascinating…

    Fashion from Wikipedia

    The bustle was a typically Victorian fashion. Although most bustle gowns covered nearly all of a woman, the shape created by the combination of a bustle and corset (accentuating the rump, waist, and bosom) resulted in highly idealized representations of female sexual identity, at once exaggerated and concealed by the structures of adornment. A notable comparison is with the exaggerated images of the South African woman known as “Hottentot Venus” exhibited throughout Europe in the first part of the 19th century.

    gtfo!!!

  25. Adrianna wrote:

    Sorry , But I can’t find anything empowering about the rap songs . I have an hourglass figure and a butt. My family used to teased me because i was too thin then when puberty hit I was still thin but with curves and a butt. And so all the attention focused on that. I hate,despise the attention my body gets me. I dress way way down as to not to be seen. Someday I walk around wishing i would be invisible disappear. Dealing with the sexual harassment gave me a mild ulcer. My friend who is white and as curvy as me gets worse treatment she has breast and I can’t count on my fingers how many time man have exposed themselves to her on the subway or the streets of New York or have asked her to show them her breast.

    I don’t consider rappers a source of empowerment for black women ,because they are still operating under Patriarchal rules and it is all about the male gaze.

    since I can’t win and refuse to dress nicely ,because dressing nicely is so important here in Haiti . I have gotten in fight with people about how I dress. After having had some guys trying to grab me of the street and try to drag me to God knows where because i was dressed nicely with curve hugging clothes I now refuse to do it. I don’t have a choice and I’m sure not letting any of these men notice I exist. I’d rather be frumpy looking than dead.

  26. Msday wrote:

    “The black beauty ideal is as much a tyranny as the white one, because it is an IDEAL that forces most women to feel inadequate. ”

    So true Tami, many of us fall into that category. After reading a post on my network, and coming to this site, I am a bit depressed for the day. I am an expat, seeking to return to the states. All over the world, black women have to put up with someone else’s tyrannical view of what they should look like. You can’t walk down the street without being assessed and critiqued. You can’t work on a job without either gushing about your looks or criticism for not fitting in. People profiling you as a prostitute because you are black. Men feeling as if they can abuse you because “you can take a punch” as a black woman. I am sick and tired of it! And they wonder why so many of us have “attitudes” or are “perpetually pissed off” This is why…..

  27. marci wrote:

    a great post..
    i am 43..
    it took work after my teens where i grew from being a bag of bones to a curvy young woman to an even curvier older woman to accept my body…
    being constantly around my mother and her friends of all shapes and sizes did, and still does, a lot for my comparatively ‘young’ self esteem..

    the scary thing is that today, most young girls do not have or want this today.. they look to the media for validation…
    it’s very sad…. they are missing out on a world of experience and wisdom…
    this directly leads to the equally sad fact that a great number of these young girls are so out of ’shape’ for their age compared to when i was growing up…
    they have no chance of achieving any ‘ideal’….
    how psychologically damaging is that???

    bad diets, lack of exercise and a general un-wilingness to do anything except consume is the reason for this…
    the toxic lifestyle fed to these young women by the media is taking it’s toll…

    i think we are in fact lucky that we can still choose how we want to look..
    the future does not look so bright for the young ones coming up..

  28. ishtar79 wrote:

    Excellent post, it touches on so many issues.

    I never harboured the impression that the black beauty standard was somehow more empowering or easier to achieve than the white one. The video vixens always seemed very toned/perfectly proportioned to me, and it didn’t exactly seem like an easy or indeed achievable standard for a lot of women to live up to, even if their bodies were more naturally predisposed to look that way-that site on the definition of thickness (and why did I click? Mind you, I wasn’t exactly expecting a more respectful approach from a porn site).

    The beauty ideal is so pervasive it even altered the standard in (white) communities where curves were traditionally valued. When my mother was young, and to an extent when I was teenager, the figure most valued here in Greece tended to be very shapely (which of course my flat chested/narrow hipped/thick waisted self screwed, but what can you do), but the skinny ideal with a side of bleached blond hair (which looks rather ridiculous with 90% of women’s complexion here) is alive and well now. What’s especially interesting is that even with it being the standard of the privileged majority in this country, there were still nasty racial undertones. I mean, we didn’t even have real minority of black people here before emigration picked up in the last two decades or so, but still a song from 40 years ago went something along the lines of “you have a [black] body (not the actual term used, sigh)….the mother who gave birth to you must have been a gypsy”. In case that’s unclear, it’s meant to be flattering to the white woman it’s sung to, which doesn’t make it any less problematic, of course.

  29. Adrianna wrote:

    @ Msday
    My sentiment exactly. They have the gut to tell me to smile and be polite to them.

  30. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Thanks everyone, for your comments.

    @Tracey – Yes. And as you and Tami mentioned, an hour glass with a behind.

    @cocolamala – Agreed. Perhaps the difference in language is “alternative beauty standards” vs “alternative beauty ideals” – as you mentioned, using alternative beauty standards can sometimes be helpful.

    @Tamara – Exactly. I remember reading somewhere that both J.Lo and Christina Milian specifically asked their trainers not to work off their behinds as they were an important part of the money making. (And…uh…I’m guilty of that too.) It’s amazing what we put ourselves through, isn’t it?

    @SeattleSlim – Damn, we must have grown up in the same time. Back that Azz Up is definitely an involuntary reaction song, and I agree with you on the early Trina, Foxy, and Kim. Their swagger was on point then, as you described.

    @katie/tami/jen – Thanks!

    @Phil Deeze – I can’t speak for every black woman, but trying to mess around with the MSM will keep you fucked up. I’ve watched way too many “hot 100″ shows that feature less than 10 black women, all recognizable names, and Halle Berry comes in around #14 and Tyra Banks is #86. (She did win most beautiful a few places.) It’s like…really?

    I definitely have a love/hate relationship with black gossip sites (more on the hate side) but I do love how they talk about black celebs. My friends who work in the weeklies tell me that most of the time, the editors are like “black celebs don’t sell” passing over A – List black celebs for C-List white ones. It’s ridiculous.

    @GueraLola –

    This is also true. I think the most empowering beauty standard is the one we set for ourselves, but that’s really hard to attain.

    Be Back with more responses soon…

  31. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @LTP – I’ve thought she said “Black” for the last decade and a half.

    @theprettyyear –

    *adds your blog to her RSS*
    *makes a mental note to buy electric blue pumps*
    *makes a note to put more effort in to her clothing*

    Ahem. Fabulous blog.

    As my blog began to attract more attention, I got all kinds of people telling me what an obscene body I had– indirectly (god forbid I show my hips! I clearly just need looser clothing) and straight up to my e-face.

    My *body*. Obscene. Sleazy. You know, contrary to the belief of the boys who snapped my bra straps, the shape of my body just IS. It doesn’t DO anything, let alone force people to have sex with it. Ugh.

    This. is. exactly. it. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life is circle skirts and shapeless tops, but wearing anything else seems to put people on sex alert. I was rolling around the other day in a button down and a straight skirt and it seemed like a cue for people to start with the slutty secretary fantasies.

    *mental shower*

    Anyway, the fact that the body becomes so sexualized that people cannot see or understand anything else is highly irritating.

    @Nadra -

    That is interesting. I’m not sure Cam’s performance of it stuck though. It was played for comedy…but then again, I’m not around many white people, so I’m not the best barometer. Anyone else have a perspective on this?

    @A -

    Yes, some of my friends have expressed this. It’s that not enough for one *or* the other, which is doubly depressing.

    @n – Thanks!

    @Ashlynn –

    As I touched on in the Jezebel/SS post, early on I was targeted for my hourglass body shape. I was surprised, to say the very least. Over time those initial comments only began to get worse, as the standard ass parade rap videos gained popularity. In order to feel not even so much comfortable, but physically safe going out, I would literally cross dress- my baggiest jeans, most shapeless hoodie, freaking TIMBS(and I’m a size 11 foot)- and STILL got crazy comments. At that point, I had to accept that my body was my body, and no amount of fabric would change that.

    Yes. This. Man I tried everything when I was younger and nothing even works. (And this was when JnCo jeans were in style, where I could put on my jeans without taking off my shoes). What finally did work for me? The protective layer of fat that the Prettyyear brought up. As a size 18, it’s as if someone mussed my lines around the edges. It’s still visible, but it doesn’t announce itself any longer. So while this is physically safer for me (I literally get about 1/4 of the catcalls I used to get), it ultimately isn’t very comfortable for me. Yet everytime I get drop a few pounds, it’s like the invisibility cloak slipped off. I’m still trying to find a way to reconcile this.

    @Kjen – LOL, I did the same thing when Alex first posted it. I was mesmerized by his level of detail.

    @Adrianna –

    Fair enough. Rap/Hip-Hop isn’t for everyone, but I do identify strongly with it, so that colors my perspective.

    What you bring up though is something I wish more men understood – what makes things scary is the entitlement that people seem to have to women with curvier forms. It’s as if we exist *just for their sexual viewing/pleasure* and nothing else. And since we exist solely for their *pleasure* they are entitled to do as they will. It’s such bullshit, and I wish more people would speak up if they see a woman being targeted by a man in a physical/threatening manner.

    @msday –

    And they wonder why so many of us have “attitudes” or are “perpetually pissed off” This is why…..

    Word.

  32. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Shermy –

    I’m glad that someone understands what it’s like to have an hourglass figure and big behind and have everyone talk about your body like there is no person in it!!!!

    OH yes. As if you are just there for inspection. One of my “favorite” incidents was when some guy took it upon himself to board my metro car, sit next to me (uninvited, mind) and interrupt me to tell me that it was great that I had a sexy body but I should make sure to develop my brain.

    That mofo was so quick to tell me about myself that he completely overlooked the accounting textbook I had in my hand – I was trying to get some reading done when he interrupted me.

    @LCrawfty –

    I had to wonder if there was another element to it because I was a white woman with an atypical look. Also, girls in my school would tell me that they loved my butt. Its put me in kind of an odd position where I feel like guilty for getting this kind of attention for having what is described as a “black ass” and i`m annoyed that we live in society where women are judged on their butts so much to begin with.

    Oh yes. One of my friends emailed me a song about “whooties” – white girls with a bootie. I can only imagine…

    @trooper6 –

    Latoya, have you read Disidentifications by Jose Esteban Munoz? It is pretty great, and it talks in detail about the ways in which people work to find empowerment in otherwise negative representations when they are the only representations around.

    No, but it looks like I need to add it to the list. :-)

    And I really like your thoughts about being seen as a whole person. I think that’s what so many people don’t get. For example, when I am discussing catcalling and street harassment with men I know, they all had the same initial reaction: “Well, if you’re dressed attractively, am I not supposed to notice that? Why would you dress like that?”

    And I was dumbfounded – why would you assume I’m dressed a certain way because I am being harassed? And secondly, why would you assume I’m dressed that way for you? For some reason, they could not conceive that I might have dressed in clothes I liked, or dressed in anticipation of meeting someone at my destination. It’s the whole entitlement thing that fucks me up.

    And that, unfortunately, interferes with what I want to do for myself. I may be dressing to inspire lust for my partner, but I still have to deal with the outside world if we are not together. And it also bothers me that I can’t wear something for myself without men thinking it’s for them. Maybe I just wanted to wear a cute spring top – I didn’t dress up *for* you. I don’t even know you – what would make you think I dressed to capture your attention? (I tend to call that club logic, applied to the real world)

    I also really like this:

    Rather than being sexless bodies and sexless beings, I want to be honored as a sexual being and a sexual body, as well as for being political, funny, smart, and so on.

    Why is it so difficult to be seen as a whole being? That would solve so much…

  33. trooper6 wrote:

    @Latoya,

    Yeah, the idea that a woman on the street is dressing up for the man, not for herself or for someone who is not random dude on the street seems to be really hard for some people to get. It is the height of objectification. I’m having a frustrating argument on another board with a man who said that being objectified is no big deal, that he’d welcome being objectified.

    I said he only thinks that because he has never been actually objectified. Which ties into what you just wrote. These guys always imagine themselves as sexual subjects and furthermore always in control, in a position of superior power, and the center of attention.

    I told this guy that when men *actually* are objectified, they don’t like it. They don’t welcome it. Objectification is not saying, “You are hot!” It isn’t complimenting someone. It is making them an object for your pleasure with no feelings or importance or humanity of their own. It is making their being only there to serve your pleasure with no care of any pleasure of their own. It is dehumanizing.

    And then something interesting hit me. I have be been objectified as a man. But…I have been objectified more specifically as a man of color. And I didn’t like it. I think it is very hard to objectify the hypernormative man within white supremacist heteropatriarchy…because they are so certain of their subject status. Which means…I think a lot of men…just don’t really understand what objectification is and how damaging it is…because fundamentally they have no empathy for other people.

    Which comes back to Jose Esteban Munoz. He talked about how minority groups have to learn to identify through others, because they are so often not the main character of media representions…but the majoritarian subject never really has to learn how to identify and empathize through women, poc, sexual minorities, etc.

  34. srenee wrote:

    this post hits so many notes for me. I’m new to the racialicious site but posts like these ensure that I will be coming back often, so thanks latoya!

    living life in fear of some dude will say something while i’m walking down the street
    to work wearing trousers and a button down (and 3 out of 4 times they do say something) simply bc of my hourglass body type just gets tiring. i refuse to dress myself down, but god damn it when I feel good about myself because of a cute new outfit and all it takes is a catcall from some asshole hanging out of his car to make me feel bad anew, all in a span of 5 minutes.

    i’ve never felt in danger, but i do have to give myself peptalks before leaving the house sometimes, my “don’t let it bother you” mantra, but i’d like to live in a world where i could go about my business and be left alone.

    and some men just don’t get it. they don’t see me shaking with anger when they yell things like “bitch, u aint all that” because i refuse to acknowledge their “compliments”.

    i actually had one man, a religious something or other street fellow, follow me into my (locked down) apartment, stop me from getting on the elevator and then have the NERVE to lecture me on not concerning myself with “looking sexy” and focus on my mind and my spirituality… that was 8 months ago and i still want to explode in anger – or cry. it could have been in danger, but that’s not even what shook me. i was on my lunch break, i was wearing a suit, i was not looking special, or done up, or ready for the club… im not even sure i was wearing makeup. but because under that suit there was an ass, legs and boobs, all of a sudden i was some slut who didn’t give a shit about my mind and my spirituality?

    it’s like we can’t win

  35. Big Man wrote:

    Very good read.

    Body image is an issue for everyone, male and female, but women definitely have a hard row to hoe. I feel bad for all these little girls getting sexualized so young, getting preyed on so young. It’s a terrible burden to bear.

  36. Thom wrote:

    ” For example, when I am discussing catcalling and street harassment with men I know, they all had the same initial reaction: “Well, if you’re dressed attractively, am I not supposed to notice that? Why would you dress like that?”

    And I was dumbfounded – why would you assume I’m dressed a certain way because I am being harassed? And secondly, why would you assume I’m dressed that way for you? For some reason, they could not conceive that I might have dressed in clothes I liked, or dressed in anticipation of meeting someone at my destination. It’s the whole entitlement thing that fucks me up.”

    This notion of feeling that we men must visibly react to women if we find them attractive counfounds me. Seriously, how does noticing equal *telling*??? I might see a woman walking by and think she is attractive. How is that an invite for me to make a comment?

  37. Fiqah wrote:

    @LDP:

    For example, when I am discussing catcalling and street harassment with men I know, they all had the same initial reaction: “Well, if you’re dressed attractively, am I not supposed to notice that? Why would you dress like that?”

    ::: smiles bitterly :::

    I’m reminded of something that happened a little while ago. I was walking back home from yet another fabulous and inspiring brunch with AJ Plaid. Along the 20-block way, I noted the usual amount of appreciative looks from men and the occassional “You’re BEAUTIFUL, ma!” and comments in this vein until I put on my headphones. Let the record show that I was wearing a plain black V-neck tee shirt (worn backwards so as not to draw undue attention to my chest) over a PUNISHING minimizer bra ( I’m, er, “blessed” in this department), loose-fitting jeans, sneakers, no makeup (once more, attention), small silver hoop earrings (attention, attention, attention) and my hair slicked back and beaten into gelled-and-bunned submission (do I need to tell ya why?). This ensemble, like most of what I wear everyday, was carefully crafted to ensure that I would look decent and presentable…not so casual as to look, as my mama would say like “somebody throwed you away” but not so fancy as to attract impolite masculine attention and possibly ruin my fucking day yet again (and as so many of us know TOO well, toeing that line is its own special brand of oppression).
    Well, long story short, someone DID ruin my day (I still kinda don’t wanna talk about it, but it was gross). A few days after the incident, I related the story to my progressive, free-thinking, open-minded ex.

    The first thing he asked me was what I was wearing when all of it went down. Really. Because – surely – somehow, I brought this on myself. I wanted to cry.

    I always wonder if men lack the capacity to understand what it is to be desired without reciprocation, and how dangerous it often is, as a woman and especially as one of color, to just BE.

  38. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @trooper6 –

    I’m having a frustrating argument on another board with a man who said that being objectified is no big deal, that he’d welcome being objectified.

    If only I had a dollar for that flip.

    It is making them an object for your pleasure with no feelings or importance or humanity of their own. It is making their being only there to serve your pleasure with no care of any pleasure of their own. It is dehumanizing.

    Well said. To men on the street, somehow I stopped being a person. I am supposed to cater to their whims. This is why it is so galling to me when I will say, immediately, “I’m not interested” or “Sorry, I have a boyfriend” and the response is a defiant “So?”

    Are you fucking serious? Did you not just hear me?

    Also interesting what you said about being objectified as a black male – that’s a dynamic that I think we should discuss more.

    @srenee –

    i actually had one man, a religious something or other street fellow, follow me into my (locked down) apartment, stop me from getting on the elevator and then have the NERVE to lecture me on not concerning myself with “looking sexy” and focus on my mind and my spirituality…

    I KNOW! Like how fucking dare you? And it is upsetting because in the moment, you just want to be out of that situation, but the screaming entitlement of it all. “I know what’s best for you even though I don’t know you. ”

    @Thom –

    This notion of feeling that we men must visibly react to women if we find them attractive counfounds me. Seriously, how does noticing equal *telling*??? I might see a woman walking by and think she is attractive. How is that an invite for me to make a comment?

    Thank you. And here’s the worst part of it – people conflate harassment with a compliment. I’ve been complimented by men on the street before.

    Once, a guy stopped me when I was about 19 walking around a business plaza and said “I don’t want to bother you, I just wanted to let you know you look very nice today.”

    I thanked him. He went back to his conversation with his friend. I smiled and moved on.

    When I was 22, a man came up to me while waiting for the bus and just said straight out “Hi, I’m ____. I’ll cut to the chase, I think you’re gorgeous. Would you like to go out for a drink sometime?”

    I told him no, thank you, I had a boyfriend. And he smiled at me, said “Well, I had to try. Have a great day.” He then left me alone and went to catch his bus.

    One guy was trying to pick me up. One guy wasn’t. But they were both respectful, of both my space and my time.

    And, more to the point, they did not feel entitled to pursue me after I said I wasn’t interested. Contrast that to the guy on the street two days ago who proceeded to follow me, hissing, for a few blocks when I didn’t respond to his initial “hey sexy big girl! your ass looks good today!”

    It’s the entitlement part. If you want to approach a woman on the street, fine. But remember, she doesn’t owe you anything. You’re infringing on her day. And an approach is WAY different from hollering something ignorant and expecting her to respond because you expressed your sexual desire.

  39. Sundjata wrote:

    Perhaps this issue is quite as complicated as we may think. Beauty is culturally defined, and your audience will–to a large degree–structure your feelings about your attractivenes.

    One my ex-girlfriends was super thick and reveled in her butt. She used to ask me if her butt looked round in whatever jeans she was purchasing, and for her, the type of men she wanted to attract, had a certain proclivity for her shape.

    I’m 6′4″ and 240 lbs, and not every woman is attracted to men with my dimensions, and, I’m not concerned with those who are not. Not everyone will like me, and not every man will like every type of woman. Even within the Black community there are men who just prefer petite women–I”m not one of them (lol), but I can appreciate different types beauty.

    My point is, consider your audience. Who are appealing to and who appeals to you?

    Hetepu.

  40. JRMoreau wrote:

    Interesting post. Fascinating perspectives. Being a woman seems to be tough enough in this society, nevermind adding all this stuff to the equation.

  41. Marco wrote:

    Wonderful piece, Latoya. You skillfully highlighted the complex ways in which women of color or Black women in particular negotiate and reclaim their self-image in the context of social images that can be both exploitative and empowering.

    I see many reader discuss with dispensing with beauty standards all together but can we honestly get around that? The social construction of “beauty” and what gets classified as “ugly” or “obscene” seems almost impossible to do away with. If so, then shouldn’t we ought to embrace many forms of “beauty” in all its multiplicities.

    Also, what is missing is how women’s bodies are socially constructed is bound up with the politics of respectability. Especially for communities of color, we have always felt the need to represent our racial communities in a ‘respectable’ manner–particularly in front of the white public. This respectability is informed is classed and informed by a Judeo-Christian ethic. So it is one thing for heterosexual women to struggle with beauty standards from within and without their racial communities, but what about those women who are not ‘respectable’ enough to be considered ‘women’? How is the notion of beauty standards complicated by the stories of transwomen, lesbian, or other queer women who fall outside of what is considered a ‘woman’ in the first place?

  42. Ruchama wrote:

    I have to admit, I loved “Baby Got Back” when it first came out. I was almost 12, and had suddenly gotten curves, and that song was pretty much the only thing saying that that was good. I was aware that there were racial aspects to the song, but it didn’t really occur to me then that they didn’t apply to me because I was white. As I got a bit older, through most of middle school and high school, I would always wear baggy clothes — wearing clothes that made me look bigger was preferable to wearing clothes that showed my curves. It was only in college that I got comfortable enough to wear thing like ribbed shirts that stretched enough to cover my breasts but then came in enough to also be somewhat snug around my waist, or shirts that showed any cleavage at all, or shirts that ended at my waist instead of below my hips. (I’m 4′10″, and in high school, I usually wore men’s L or XL t-shirts, which would put the hem somewhere around mid-thigh.) By high school, I was very aware that there was a way a white girl’s body was “supposed” to look, and a way a black girl’s body was “supposed” to look, and that mine looked much more like the black ideal than the white one. Essentially, I’m shaped like Lil’ Kim and grew up in an environment that told me I was supposed to be shaped like Kate Moss.

    (And in my family, I knew from a very young age that “looking black” was definitely wrong. Everyone in my family has hair somewhere between curly and Jewfro, many of us have dark coloring, and pretty much all the women have curves. A phrase I remember hearing a lot from all the women in my family, when considering a new hairstyle or article of clothing, was “I don’t like it — it makes me look black.” I have even heard my blonde-haired, green-eyed, pale-skinned, freckled sister say that about a bathing suit. Nobody who saw her in a bathing suit could ever possibly think she was black, but the way that suit shaped her curves was “too black” for her.)

  43. brownstocking wrote:

    @ LaToya we have such parallels, I, too, like you and theprettyyear (yay Bloglines) had to add the layer of fat for protection. Coke bottle figure, which my girlfriends envied, but I dreaded. I was assaulted and then fought off a second attempt within one month of each other. The second guy told me, ” you can’t be mad, as good as you look, you knew I was going to try.” Great, thanks.

    So I’m trying to get in shape, but I’m noticing that as I slim down, yes, I’m getting more looks, and I’m conflicted. I want to wear whatever I want, but I don’t want the hetero masculine gaze on me. I’m glad I’m not alone, but sad we’re feeling this way.

  44. Tara K. wrote:

    The Sir Mix-a-lot lyrics are definitely upsetting, but also relevant. I’ve always felt like big butts were less accepted in the white community, and I’m a white girl with a big butt. I’ve had people comment that I must have some African ancestor. This has always annoyed the hell out of me, not because I’m upset that they think I might have a black ancestor, which is likely for many white Americans, but because they feel the need to not only objectify to but to racaialize a part of my body in this way. There is NO RACE of women who fit a universal stereotype. Not all Latina women and black women are curvy; not all white women are slim. I think falling into these stereotypes is a damaging way of just separating and making distinctions between races even more.

    That said, I don’t mean that no one can write about their body in racial terms, but that others’ needs to classify women’s bodies according to racial categories is damaging not only to body acceptance but also functions to say, “Look, these people are so different and we’re like this.” It, of course, also leads to the fetishizaiton.

  45. atlasien wrote:

    My body type breaks out of any racial category:

    non-Asian: tall, big feet, broad shoulders, large butt and hips
    Asian: very short legs/long torso, barely-size-A breasts

    It’s always been a struggle just to find clothes that fit me, especially dresses and pants (12P is the closest it gets). I’m way too big for Asian clothes and not shaped right for clothes marketed for other women.

    I’ve never had major problems with body image, though. Honestly, I don’t know why. Right around puberty I was getting an insane amount of judgments and insults about my body, mostly from other girls (who were white). I was able to reject what they said and not internalize it, somehow. Maybe it helped that having such an extreme multiracial body type, it was obviously impossible for me to fit into any racial beauty standard at all, so I gave up before I even started. I wasn’t ever going to be slim and willowy and petite, and I was always going to be a card-carrying member of the I.B.T.C. And I actually like being tall and imposing and not having to wear bras.

    Maybe being OK with my body is also a side effect from being objectified so much for being Asian… whenever I got unwelcome advances from men, I never felt like it was because of my body, but because of my face. I don’t know if that was accurate, but that’s always the way I felt and interpreted those advances… that they felt I owed them some kind of sexual attention because my eyes and face fit a certain profile.

    @Latoya: I love your example and wish more men could understand that women don’t mind being told they’re attractive… it’s totally fine and totally welcome! But that whole “you OWE me your time/attention/body” attitude is what’s so disgusting and humiliating.

    Great article.

    And not to take away from men’s responsibility, but I also wish that more women would try to stop ranking other women all the time, kicking other women down the scale so that they can come out on top. Whether it’s breast size or butt size or whatever, we should be able to talk about beauty without enforcing and assigning ugliness.

  46. c.n.edaw wrote:

    Really great post! All the responses got me wondering about some things. We often hear about women who were abused sexually gaining weight as a form of self protection, esp. from male interest.

    Could there be any relation to a higher incidence and/ or acceptance of being overweight/obese in the black community to women who have either been abused OR as a response to feelings that their bodies are sexualized (including racially) early on?

    I am a taller than average black woman- 5′8 and usually wear between a 4 or 6 …my smallest has been a two.
    I strive to maintain my weight and all my life people have assumed it was because I “adhered to the white beauty standard” and wanted to be more like the white girls in the suburbs I grew up with.

    In reality, that couldn’t have been further from the truth.

    First of all,my white peers were usually striving for much smaller sizes, like a size zero– something I can only obtain by not eating at all, so that was never it. I was still always both taller and heavier than most of them.

    Actually, it was more because I realized could NEVER have the ideal black female body type –so the best I could do was be thin and “model like” at least among black women.

    While a lot of my black girl friends were lauded for their “curves” the only credit I got was for having a pretty face and looking “like a model” because I was taller and thinner than most black girls I was around. My mother always blamed my lack of a behind (and hers) on my white grandmother on the MANY occassions someone called attention to it.

    I talked about my flat butt once before on Racialicious when someone swore that ALL black women had “high round butts” and how no amount of squats or toning could change the fact that it was both small and flat.

    Black men compliment my face, but never my body AND only white men have EVER complimented my figure.

    And gaining weight? Are you kidding me? When you have a flat butt , a double DD chest, and store most of your weight in your stomach you don’t look sexy or cute. The proportions are all off.

    The “thick” and plus sized movement has always been about still having the right proportions despite being bigger–at least until the last few years or so.

    I have pictures of myself at a size 12 ( the one time in my life I listened to people claim it was okay for a black woman to have a little “extra meat” on their bones) and looked as those I was in the final stages of pregnancy with twins. My features were so distorted people literally didn’t recongnize me.

    IMHO, so many of these notions are about reinforcing stereotypes and objectifying all women. My unscientific study has shown me that it appears most women of all races tend to be pear shaped when not overweight. Most are average height. Very few fit into any ideal espoused by any “beauty standard”.

  47. c.n.edaw wrote:

    I was also reminded of that episode of “The Game” when the character of Melanie chops off her long hair and the character Tasha exclaims,

    ” What’s she gonna do now? She ain’t got no booty??”

    That’s another element that has always been at play for me as a brown skinned black girl with long so-called “good hair” and no booty.

    It is not uncommon for people to remark that if you took away my hair I’d having nothing “going for me ‘ as far as attracting black men on a physical level.

  48. n wrote:

    @Latoya
    When I was losing my baby weight I was in Puerto Rico, and I desperately tried to lose the weight but not the ass!
    Like you,I can appreciate a man who comes to me and compliments me politely and leaves. And I never am rude to children or old people who compliment me. But I have gotten testy about anyone else doing it.

    @Fiqah
    I have one friend whom I discuss these things with. And he has heard me cry and despair and doubt myself so many times. WHY, even when I have totally covered myself up are they STILL approaching me and making comments. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?
    My casual, weekend outfit is jeans, tshirt, hat,and sunglasses. In winter I just switch to a black sweater instead of a tshirt.

    I had an “Amish” phase when I was 20 and am now in my Kate Hepburn phase. Half Hepburn half Lillith Crane, I should say.And my work wardrobe is, I realized, camoflauge. All shades of tan and beige, and black. My clothing matches the color of my skin, hair and eyes. Its easy to maintain a simple wardrobe, for one thing; but it also doesnt attract the attention that wearing colors does. I have a hot pink suede jacket that
    .

    My hair has been in gelled, bunned submission for years now.I don’t cut it because I happen to like it and many people don’t get that I want to keep it for my own enjoyment, but don’t want or need other people to look at it.

    @Thom
    I wrote something about this in a post I made about Miley Cyrus. When I was in the Caribbean a lot of “American” women were horribly offended by the attire of the women there and upset that the local people were angry at their sons (and sometimes husbands) for their sexual pursuit of said women. How DARE they let their daughters dress like that and expect the boys to NOT respond.And the parents and women in general felt that it was very wrong for people to come to their island and expect them to change their attire so they didn’t have to learn to keep their sexual desire in check and learn to leave women alone that were simply “being”.

    I am so glad you are all here and sharing. Many women I know don’t seem to have the same problem with unwanted attention and can’t relate to my complaints and I often feel alone. Everyone I know is always encouraging me to let my hair down, to wear colors, to wear skirts and jewelry and be pretty. My mother , aunts and grandmother keep buying my daughter bright attractive clothing like they did for me, and they can’t understand at all our desire to not be seen. So for my own little selfish reasons I just want to hug all of you here and thank you for sharing.

  49. JP wrote:

    If I had a nickel for everytime I’ve been told that I have the perfect “black woman body” by males (and some females) of all ethnicities, I’d be a millionaire.

    I’m gonna start charging them for it.

    I’ve always found that Baby Got Back (which is, incidentally, one of my favorite songs, because red beans and rice sure as hell didn’t miss me) is more popular among non-assed white women than it is among any other group. That may be my location, but from high school on, girls with no butt to speak of adopted that song as their own. And I’m like “NO!!! It’s my anthem, not yours!!! You can listen, but don’t touch!”

    I like being a white woman with an “atypical” white body shape. I’m thick (so sayeth my biracial neice), and confident in it. When I exercise, I fret over inches lost in my thigh/hip/ass area, because… well…. it’s like my calling card. I feel fairly nondescript in ever other way physically— I’m pretty, I think, but not overly so.. no one’s gonna confuse me with a starlet— but my posterior is phenominal.

    But I don’t like the male-gaze. Yes, my boyfriend is allowed to grab my ass at anytime because, well, he’s my boyfriend. Part of our relationship is he can lust after my ass and I can swoon over his shoulders/upper arms (don’t ask). But that doesn’t mean that it’s ok for a random guy of any ethnicity to come up behind me in a bar and grab me, then say “well, those pants just… mmm!” No, sir. I will kill you.

  50. ashlynn wrote:

    Yes yes yes! There is something this culture truly needs to be ashamed of when a woman becomes suspicious of someone’s genuine, respectful compliments. It was only a few months ago that a guy my age stopped me just to simply say, “excuse me miss, i just wanted to say that you look very pretty today(in my fabulous old, dirty, shredded jeans).” To say the very least, I was taken aback. to say the most, If he said anymore I’d have been tempted to give him, which goes to show how the sheer lack of respect towards women in society has conditioned us to jump for joy at the simplest things. This is why women will cross the entire street to lean into some man’s car when they(rudely) honk from a block away. It should NOT BE LIKE THIS!

    In my middle school, students wore uniform. Only the girls who chopped off inches from their skirts and wore their shirts half buttoned. I chose not to, because I didn’t want any attention for my body anyway- I was def that girl in like 4th grade preaching to her friends, “You don’t need a man! You need TEXTBOOK!” I caught flaming hell for it. Because I wasn’t sexualizing myself to suit some horny little boy’s needs, now I’m ugly, dirty, gay. Boys would harass me to no end in front of other girls but then sneak up on me after class and ask for sexual favors. When I refuse, now I’m an ugly, dirty, gay nasty ass slut. How does that work? This is me circa 12, by the way. It had gotten to the point where I had been seriously violated and the students who witnessed it LAUGHED because I deserved it for thinking I was better than them. How do I deserve assault for minding MY own body? Defenders truly like to think that the images they put out into the word have no negative affect on female/race dynamics, but there are MILLIONS of fed-up women, myself included, who are done being victimized and seriously beg to differ. What kind of influence does any culture have that dehumanizes females to such a point that their physical being becomes public property to be used as seen fit? Video models are not far off from Saartjie Baartman, as people would like to not believe. I’m all for appreciation, but never exploitation.

    And much thanks to the person who pointed out that when males are picked apart and objectified they way women are in “booty culture”, THEY DON’T LIKE IT. Men will tell you they think it’s all good, but inside they know better. I have taken this initiative on several occasions with friends, walking down the street catcalling men with the SAME LAME GAME they pull on women, and all of a sudden it’s “Where is all that coming from, no one even says that to girls….*getting sensitive* Just leave me alone!” Mmmmhm!

  51. Medusa wrote:

    Admittedly I haven’t made it through all the comments yet, but I just want to say how interesting I find it that white women think black women are allowed to be fat when as many people on this post have said before having an hourglass doesn’t mean that you’re fat, it means you have an hourglass. What I find really interesting is that the people who think black bodies are unappealing because of the GIGANTIC ASS are the same people who think Scarlett Johanssen and Angelina Jolie are hot. Um, hello? It’s the exact same body type that you just said was the reason black women are unappealing. I mean, my sister has that body type and I don’t understand the universe in which seemingly 0% body fat and a well defined (read: tiny) waist, medium sized breasts, insane abs and strong legs an arms is gross. (That’s what she looks like, lucky her.)

    One of my favorite things is the assumption that every single black woman has the same body. Even when there is a counter-example in front of you. I have a rather flat ass. I was at a tailor recently and one seamstress said to another in Chinese assuming I couldn’t understand “This girl has no ass.” Mind you in America, I’ve had white “friends” tell me how huge my ass is. Once, they were actually screaming and yelling about how “you can’t fit your huge ass into those jeans!!!” (I was borrowing a male friend’s jeans because it had gotten cold.) Um, okay….I’m a flat-assed size 4, why the hell wouldn’t I fit into those jeans? Later when I confronted them about how offensive I found it, I got no apology from any but some lame ass defense about how they all “assumed” I had a big ass because my breasts are so big and because I am black. Um, wtf? You “assumed” that I had a big ass when you’ve known me for years and can clearly see that I don’t?? Why don’t you apologize for racially stereotyping me instead of justifying it? You would never have said that shit to a white woman with my same body.

    I was just reminded of another instance in which I told my friend I intend to get a breast reduction this year, and he said he didn’t think my breasts are that big. (I’m an F-G, awesome for a 5′0 frame.) I was wearing a hoodie, and was took it off to show him and he was like “don’t do that in public.” WTF??? Don’t exist with breast in public?? Am I supposed to wear a hoodie at all times just because I was given a disproportionately large chest? I also have the distinct feeling that a white woman in that situation wouldn’t be accused of being vulgar just by existing with a large chest, the way I have numerous times.

    Also, the thing about black women in America being soooo overweight is at least partially bogus, because while blacks have a higher average BMI, we also have a lower body fat percentage, which I think is a much better indicator of whether or not someone is overweight.

  52. Msday wrote:

    “Could there be any relation to a higher incidence and/ or acceptance of being overweight/obese in the black community to women who have either been abused OR as a response to feelings that their bodies are sexualized (including racially) early on?”

    I don’t know about that one, having grown up in an all black neighborhood in which having a big butt was seen as a prized possession. I think it has more to do with socialization and diet, as opposed to a response to being sexualized. In my community, I was the skinny one who compelled others to shout from vehicles, “you need to gain some weight” and comment ” she would be gorgeous if she had a body”
    It wasn’t commonplace to see other women in the community jogging, etc. Whenever there were people who engaged in high intensity sports or running, it was said that they were trying to be white.
    As a matter of fact, speaking of your experience with not having the ideal “black woman” body. It is ironic that many woman of color, end up finding more acceptance and approval from white society, for being thin. Many of them end up married/or dating outside of their race. Although, for some reason, they suddenly become “marriageable” only when they have a white partner.
    The other problem I have with this ideal “black body” is the general sweep of everyone under the same umbrella. One drop, makes you black, so it is expected for you to look, act and think just as everyone else in the group. When you fail to meet the expectation, you are rejected. So, in essence it seems as if the black community, “one drops” for the benefit of numbers and discriminates based on undesirable qualities or features, deemed not black enough. How convenient…

  53. c.n.edaw wrote:

    “The other problem I have with this ideal “black body” is the general sweep of everyone under the same umbrella. One drop, makes you black, so it is expected for you to look, act and think just as everyone else in the group. When you fail to meet the expectation, you are rejected. ”

    I feel you, MsDay on that point. I grew up in the suburbs where I was often the only black girl and never went to a school with a lot of blacks until high school. I recall begging to take gymnastics 1)because I wanted to be a cheeerleader and 2) because a lot of my neighborhood friends did.

    My father, reacting to the fact that I had a HORRIBLE time growing up trying to make friends with other black girls ( my first day of junior high school was marked by a black girl pulling a knife on me because I had long hair and “thought I was cute”) flatly refused.

    I made straight A’s , talked “proper” and lived in a nice home so he thought me doing any sport deemed “too white” would make my life that much worse. So, unless it was basketball or track I could not do a sport.

    But here’s the funny part that relates to all this stereotyping bodies by race . Tried basketball, but was a horrible disappointment to the white coach who thought a tall, left handed black girl on the team was going to mean great things.

    The coach thinking that ALL black girls will “muscle up”_–you know that whole “thick thing” again– if they weight train enough, just couldn’t understand why working me out really hard just made me skinnier and my chest look bigger. And most of the other black girls DID bulk up which made them resent me more for not being like them physically. Since I didn’t like basketball that much anyway I just quit.

    @ Medusa. I get your point — but I think you seem to believe they are working from the same play book you are.
    What the mainstream considers curvy, really isn’t all that curvy. An 8 is considered plus sized by entertainment industry standards. Neither Angelina or Scarlett Johansson is rocking anything over a six I guarantee you and they are likely taller than average.

    When I did the Miss USA pageant, I was a size two at 5″8 –but I was the biggest girl in the pageant–and probably the only reason I wasn’t villifed totally for it was because I was black. White girls my same height and weight were ridiculed openly and told to fast a few days before the pageant.

    Having grown up around white females (and not trying to generalize) their def of curvy and the black womans is usually just not the same.
    All the women who are routinely held up as being examples of being curvy aren’t all that curvy.

    Megan Fox weighs like 94 pounds. A grown ass woman who actually gained to weigh that much and is considered a sex goddess to millions weighs only 94 freaking pounds!!!

    Yet every white guy and girl in my building will argue you down that SHE IS CURVY not skinny or petite, yet Beyonce’ is “one cheeseburger away from being fat.” Yeah, I actually heard that. I think Beyonce wears a 4 or 6 and she’s over 5′4.

    They just aren’t working with the same play book.

    I am the skinniest one of my black female friends, but among my white friends I am the biggest one in the group wearing a size 4 0r 6 and I am taller.

    I talk diet with the black girls they look at me like I’m insane ! T he white girls just give me tips or offer to work out with me. We just aren’t typically on the same page with body type expectations.

    Likewise on “so called ” black features. I have full lips compared to most white people, but very small lips compared to a lot of my black relatives and friends. My white girlfriends like MY lips, but those of my grandmother they would surely consider too large.

    I have naturally curly hair a lot of white women love, but most are not fiending for my sister’s frizzy kinks. When I see more ethnic features lauded on white women, they are typically those that would be on the “lesser end of the spectrum” on a black woman.

  54. Anonymous wrote:

    @ c.n. edaw-

    Yeah, I get what you’re saying too, but I think it’s totally wrong to say “curvy” and fat are the same thing. Curvy just means….womanly. Scarlett Johanssen is tiny, I mean quite short and thin (5′2 I think), but still with an hourglass figure. I think that’s completely independent of your actual size. It’s your proportions, and black women’s proportions are undesirable because of some stupid double standard that doesn’t even make sense! My sister too…she wears like a size 2 or 4 but still has a figure like that. Interesting how the figure is hot for Scarlett, but for her it’s “gross”.

  55. c.n. edaw wrote:

    @ Anonymous.
    Curvy=Fat. Not saying that at all.

    Just pointing out that there’s a huge disparity in what people are lumping into EITHER camp and it often goes down racial lines. Sorry, when I look at Scarlett Johansson and Megan Fox they are quite skinny! And this is in photos and film which notoriously visually add weight, which means they are in actuality even smaller than they appear most likely.

    Not that they don’t have nice Shapes, You are right, they are proportioned womanly–small waist and bigger hips ,etc…but they are still very small.

    Compared to what I think the average person means when they say THEY or someone THEY know is curvy those women are just not all that curvaceous. Most real people are talking women with a C cup, at least and hips to waist ratio just a little bit larger.

    I seriously doubt someone thinks your size 2 or 4 sister looks gross..unless they are someone who thinks a woman that height should be a 0 ( which would be quite a few white people I know)..which is more likely– and the very small distinction I am trying, perhaps unsuccesfully, to make.

    THAT is the very small distinction I am talking about that I personally encounter.

    I am 5′8 and wear a size 6 but according to my white male news director my body would look better on camera if I was a size 2 like our main white female anchor who is about the same height–who by the way is heralded by white males as being “curvy”.

    Small distinctions. She has an A cup chest and no rear, but has feminely proportioned body in the sense her waist is smaller than her hips and chest.

    THEY think she’s curvy. Most black folks and women over a size 2 think she’s quite thin, I’ve even heard bony as her hip bones do in fact stick out.

    I have a double dd chest and no ass but I am being told I am too fat. My waist too is smaller than my chest and hips. But I, a black woman, am too fat. Yet I feel sorries for the white women I work with they are shorter and heavier than both os us. They are ridiculed for weight, but none of them is technically even overweight.

    Small distinctions that make huge differences in perception.

  56. Princezz wrote:

    Great topic Latoya! I actually read this piece a few days ago and after reading the comments, I’m now ready to weigh in on “Black Booty Body Politics”. I’ve experienced and heard similar things many have discussed here and being objectified or singled out by those that do or do not feel you fit the ideal “Black” body type can i problematic.

    The truth of the matter is there are not two women with the exact body types even if they have what’s considered an hour glass figure. Another truism is our bodies change and this is inevitable. For example, when I graduated high school, I weighed 95 pounds at 5’7 ½” with a 22” waist, a butt, 34A chest and long curvaceous legs (too tall to be considered petite and too short to be a model). But I often complained about not being able to gain weight. Due to genetics from both my parents and an active lifestyle while living in larger metro areas for 15 years I could eat whatever I wanted and still maintain sizes 2 and 4 until the age of 39. Unfortunately, I’ve had to deal with negative comments from both men and women inside and outside the workplace. For example, a woman co-worker once accused me of having undergone cosmetic body surgery. As my body began to develop more and I finally acquired hips, while minding my business on my way to catch the train one day, a guy thought he was complimenting me when he said, “You have the body of a stripper”. Of course, I was livid and when I mentioned the incident to one of my male friends I was further disappointed when he said, “Well, the guy was probably just admiring you and speaking his mind”.

    With that being said, now that I’m 46 and my body has changed, I have learned to love myself more and not allow MSM or images of women in movies, videos or magazines to dictate what is ideal or healthy for me. At this point in my life, wearing sizes 6 and 8 is healthy for me and I’m not overly concerned with the opinions of others. By striving to be comfortable with both my inner and outer attributes, I’ve been able to form a healthy sense of self, of body, and sexuality. In essence, my femininity is powerful, and I embrace and rock it 24/7!

    Latoya is correct, “The paths to understanding are as varied as the women seeking them.” “And there are no simple answers.”

  57. Princezz wrote:

    Sorry, I meant …….the ideal “Black” body type can be problematic.

  58. theprettyyear wrote:

    Latoya– Sorry it took so long to respond, but thank you! A lot of my project this year is about actually wearing stuff that looks good on me (which was not lacking in my closet, just in my day-to-day), and trying to develop a little bit of a thicker skin. I am just too tired of looking schlumpy because I want to avoid harassment when I KNOW looking schlumpy only cuts it by 20% at most. Of course, I’d rather people act like they have some home training than have to thicken my skin, but, you know.

    BTW, I’m linking here.

    Medusa– YES to your entire comment, especially the first part. I once got into the most frustrating conversation with white fat acceptance folk about how a study that showed greater acceptance among black girls of muscles/strength and secondary sex characteristics (hips, booty) DID NOT EQUAL greater acceptance of fat! Just because curvyness/womanliness/strength are conflated with fat in white society doesn’t mean they’re conflated by everyone.

    Which brings me to c.n. edaw… It doesn’t make much sense if black women were “covering up” their bodies with fat that they would be proud of it, or more likely to show their booties. Further, I just need to point out that literally any statistic about the “obesity epidemic” or that shows black women are more likely to be obese/overweight is based on BMI, which is bull, and very racially biased. (A study just came out that showed black women tend to have heavier bones– yay, osteoporosis prevention– and more muscle, which– duh– means their “obesity” was even less correlated with health problems than white women’s.) I just did a post about this recently– *I* am obese/borderline obese. No two ways about it, either– some folks were like, well, she’s clearly not *obese*, but she could stand to lose a few. And it’s like– no. If you’re quoting obesity stats you have to know you are including me.

  59. Mieko wrote:

    “I told this guy that when men *actually* are objectified, they don’t like it. They don’t welcome it. Objectification is not saying, “You are hot!” It isn’t complimenting someone. It is making them an object for your pleasure with no feelings or importance or humanity of their own. It is making their being only there to serve your pleasure with no care of any pleasure of their own. It is dehumanizing.”

    So well put! When I was a freshman in college I made my roommates shout at men on the street with me from our 5th story window for “feminist purposes” because I wanted revenge I guess for all the heckling I would get walking around. *this all completely backfired. men LOVED the attention. (we whistled, shouted “compliments” like “nice guns” “i want a piece of that” etc) one guy even took off his shirt and started modeling for us. I even began to worry he would try to come into the building!

    yet when this happens to me i am instantly uncomfortable, which is the opposite effect a compliment should have, no? instead of feeling “beautiful” because someone just shouted “hey beautiful” at me, i feel suddenly on guard and awkward. i wish there was a manual for dealing with this.

    Latoya- i really liked that part about people just grabbing your ass. girls do that all the time to me! you’re right, it’s not pleasant really, tho i think people mean it to be (???)they are always patting it pinching it, saying i need to eat more to keep adding to it, asking me to lipo some of it off for them, etc. none of this makes me feel better, altho i think that is their intention.

    thanks for this article!

  60. ACW wrote:

    Amazing post. I’m so glad I found you through Bianca’s comment on another blog I found through the Hathor Legacy. Adding you to my blog feed, and passing this post on to friends…

  61. Stef wrote:

    I really appreciate all the heart that went into this article and the comments. I feel like I learned something by being shown the personal experiences of others–experiences I have never had as white girl who, with a small butt and breasts, probably doesn’t have features that scream “sex” (which I alternately find to be a good thing or bad thing so I have never really. Right now, I feel a wave of empathy for all womenkind and the individual struggles we face over our bodies at the hands of society at large. Every person should be able to feel comfortable in their own skin, to just be able to be. All women should come together to stand up to this BS!