Quoted: Sandip Roy on Culture
When I first came to the U.S., Americans asked me about that “dot on the forehead.” Now, Madonna wears a bindi. Bollywood borrows Hollywood plotlines (well, two or three for one three-hour film). Now, the Kronos Quartet reinterprets Bollywood composer R.D. Burman. Birthday cards are reproducing old kitschy Indian matchbox covers. Body-hugging T-shirts worn by gay guys in the Castro say “San Francisco” in Devnagari script. There are even Bollywood appreciation classes at universities. My kitsch has become their cool.
Of course, not everything has been alchemized into cool. My big, fat Indian wedding might be hot (“I want one,” a gay man with a Southern accent told me at my neighborhood lesbian bar while sipping a sweet cocktail), but it doesn’t mean the Indian cabdriver, the 7/11 clerk or the Gujarati storeowner are any more acceptable.
Our Krishnas and curries are now public property to be sampled, remixed, chewed up and spat out as millions of cookie-cutter lunch boxes. (Probably Made in China).
It almost makes me nostalgic for the old days when people came up to me and said, “You are from Calcutta? My doctor is Indian. Dr. Harry Patel. I think he’s from that other big city—Bombay?” And they would pause expectantly, as if waiting for me to recognize Dr. Patel. Now, they want to know what restaurant I would recommend in the Bay Area for “authentic Indian food, you know, a hole-in-the-wall place where Indians go, not your white-people-Maharaja-Thali stuff.”
And I am wondering, do I want to tell you?
—Sandip Roy, “My Kitsch is Their Cool,” Colorlines
(Image Credit: Colorlines)
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Fiqah wrote:
Confession: I own a Krishna lunchbox (Ganesha’s on the back – I know, I’m making it worse).I bought it eleven years ago as a purse – in my defense, I was still quite young, and there was no Racialicious around to show me the way. Fairly early on, though, it struck me that people thought the lunchbox was “cool” because they didn’t take the faith associated with the images that seriously…when this was basically displaying divinity on a disrespectfully pedestrian object. Because mining other cultures for the Next Cool Thing (Madonna, Gwen Stefani already DID that White-Chick-With-A-Bindi thing 15 years ago…SMH) and displacing objects, images and practices from their original context is often disrespectful.
When cultural appropriation yields actual acceptance and equality instead of just paying lip-service to these concepts, maybe I’ll be okay with it.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 2:18 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
OMG!! Thank you for posting this.
Growing up as a South Asian kid in Canada I remember when people used to say Indian food smelled yucky, or they asked me if my mom wore that dot on her head (we’re Muslim so no), or if my dad wore a turban (again, we’re Muslim so no), all with a hint of mockery. But now, eating Indian food is cool because white people do – when we did it was disgusting and smelly. Now, wearing a bindi (or it was a few years) was funky – back then it was something to be made fun of.
Now some white girls will wear saris to purposely be funky and different, taking the normalcy of our clothing away and making us even more “other” than we already are.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 2:20 pm ¶
Heather wrote:
I wish I could say I’m shocked. But I can’t. So many cultures go through this appropriation shit, and I don’t even know how to be upset about it anymore.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 3:41 pm ¶
Erika wrote:
Oh god, I can so relate to this.
Japanese culture is “hot” now thanks to Kanye, Takashi Murakami, Gwen Stefani, etc making its pop culture popular. Decidedly, quite a few Japanese people are exploiting this to make a lot of money — but as a Japanese person (with dual-citizenship, yay) living in the ‘States, it usually makes me annoyed because I’m the one who has to deal with the stupid comments. Ugh.
And the awful thing is, even with all the “cross-cultural understanding” going on, we’re still going to be seen as being foreigners.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 3:54 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ Erika:
“Decidedly, quite a few Japanese people are exploiting this to make a lot of money”
Yes, South Asians as well. And this has always upset me. I feel like they are prostituting our culture.
I also find many South Asians who do not have a problem with this (in my own experience those who were raised in South Asia) and see it as flattering that white people would “want to be like us” or are “appreciating” our culture. I never know how to deal with this as I find it so offensive.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 4:34 pm ¶
Laura wrote:
“Now, they want to know what restaurant I would recommend in the Bay Area for “authentic Indian food, you know, a hole-in-the-wall place where Indians go, not your white-people-Maharaja-Thali stuff.””
This completely reminded me of that bit on Stuff White People Like: ‘Being the only white person around’
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/20/71-being-the-only-white-person-around/
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 4:50 pm ¶
Erika wrote:
Whoops, I meant to say “admittedly”.
I need some caffeine!
Yeah, most people who seem to not realize the exploitation that goes on seem to be people who were born and raised in the exploited country. At the same time, I’ve read Japanese blog posts about how weird westerners are for picking up odd parts of their culture to exploit…so I’m not giving up hope just yet.
Generally though, people seem to have a skewed view of what “westerners” are really like.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 5:10 pm ¶
Moira wrote:
“Now, they want to know what restaurant I would recommend in the Bay Area for ‘authentic Indian food, you know, a hole-in-the-wall place where Indians go, not your white-people-Maharaja-Thali stuff.’
And I am wondering, do I want to tell you?”
So non-Asians should be encouraged to NOT patronize Asian-run establishments? That’s helpful.
Are Japanese girls guilty of appropriating somebody else’s culture when they DON’T wear a kimono? Is an Indian girl guilty of appropriating somebody else’s culture when she DOESN’T wear a sari? Should Russians get upset when they see Nigerians “appropriating Russian culture” by drinking Vodka? Or how about Mexicans? I definitely think that only Mexicans should be allowed to drink Tequila. No German people in French restaurants. No English people in Italian restaurants. Nobody but Danish kids are allowed to play with LEGO toys… And I really think that the student protesters in Iran should quit using Twitter. It’s obvious that they are just “trying to be American.”
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 9:15 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:
This kind of reminds me of a time in college when I went to an Indian restaurant with a few friends, one of whom had never had Indian food before. There was a picture on the wall that I think was a Hindu god. (Sorry, I didn’t know enough at the time to identify who it was, and I don’t remember it well enough to figure it out now.) Anyway, the way the the picture was drawn, the way the other people in the painting were looking at the central figure, the way it was framed, all said “This is a venerated and holy figure.” My friend, who apparently picked up on the “venerated and holy” messages but absolutely nothing else about the picture, commented just as the waiter came up to our table, “Wow, that’s a really freaky picture of Jesus.”
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 9:56 pm ¶
Nicole wrote:
Ugh I see this all the time and it kills me. As an African I would hate to see my tradition and culture be reduced to a fad. I enjoy wearing my kaba dress and repping my culture, but now that the styles are getting a little modern, I would hate to see everyone wearing it because they thought it was cool. Like the Middle Eastern scarves…
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 10:07 pm ¶
fruitoftheloon wrote:
@ Erika
I can’t imagine what Japanese people think when they see Western girls sticking chopsticks in their hair… It makes me think of that scene in the Little Mermaid where Ariel starts combing her hair with a fork.
Posted 03 Jul 2009 at 11:17 pm ¶
RK wrote:
I read this yesterday, and my favorite line was about Bollywood movies:
“The camp crosses over. The heart stays behind, lost in the subtitles.”
He identifies perfectly why I’m so protective about Bollywood, even though I find the movies pretty ridiculous myself.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 2:10 am ¶
jeff wrote:
8. ruchma
It would be very interesting to find out if the god in the picture was Krishna. As the storyof jesus and krishna are so similar that many believe the story of jesus is based on the the story of krishna which was based on the story of horus (i think) from ancient egypt and so on back in time.
Can you remember if the god had blue skin? As I say, it would be very interesting if your friend in his moment of ignorance had actually percieved something very deep!
As far as images of hindu deities go, in india itself there are pictures of gods and goddesses on everything from shopping bags to calendars to taxis to tee shirts to cigarettes. I dont think that indian people would be too upset with americans, or anyone else enjoying the art( as long as they are not obviously being offensive, krishna advertising beef might be a step too far!)
As sobia said Asians of her aquantaince dont seem to bothered. It seems the offence is much more in american eyes which seems a bit Westerncentric to me as it feels a bit patronising to get upset on somebody elses behalf when they dont want you too.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 7:40 am ¶
pm wrote:
Given that Japan is a wealthy first world country, why is such a big deal if Western countries use bits of Japanese culture out of context, any more than it is if Japan uses bits of the culture of Western countries (which wouldn’t bother me one iota)?
I can certainly see there is an issue if you are dealing with imbalances of power, but what’s a bit of appropriation between equals?
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 12:05 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
Cultural borrowing isn’t the issue. Cultural borrowing considered by itself is totally neutral. As far as I see it, cultural borrowing + depreciation/objectification for people of that culture = cultural appropriation.
A great example that came up during a debate on another website is this: there’s nothing wrong with me (a non-Italian) cooking Italian food and having a great appreciation for it. But if I start telling Italians that my Italian cooking is better and more authentic than theirs, that’s when the lines gets crossed.
I don’t care about how bits and pieces of Japanese culture are so much in vogue right now. In fact, it works to my advantage sometimes, when I want to find English-subtitled versions of obscure anime titles. But what drives me crazy is when people take their superficial knowledge of Japanese culture and then beat Japanese-Americans over the head with it… “Oh you’ve never heard of [insert obscure anime title]? What’s wrong with you? Are you REALLY Japanese?”
I don’t think Japanese nationals are all that affected by this trend, but it’s something that has very powerful impact on Japanese-Americans and by extension other Asian-Americans.
I’ve heard plenty of Indian people describing ow Hindu deities are super-commodified in Indian advertising. The Japanese model holds true. Kitschy Hindu-deity lunchboxes may not have any affect on Indians living in India… but the dynamic gets much more complicated (and often very negative and insulting) when it comes to Indian-Americans.
When people like us complain about appropriation, it’s not because we feel like we own the culture and no one else is allowed to borrow from it. It’s not about things, it’s about people… people who feel entitled to treat us like dirt because of their supposed connection to the culture.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 12:55 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ jeff:
“As sobia said Asians of her aquantaince dont seem to bothered. It seems the offence is much more in american eyes which seems a bit Westerncentric to me as it feels a bit patronising to get upset on somebody elses behalf when they dont want you too”
That’s not what I said. I said many South Asians who I know, who were born and raised in South Asia, don’t seem bothered. I never said no South Asians are bothered. I’m South Asian and I’m bothered by it.
I’m sorry, but I’m getting offended on my own behalf, not someone else’s.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 2:21 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:
Can you remember if the god had blue skin? As I say, it would be very interesting if your friend in his moment of ignorance had actually percieved something very deep!
Yes, definitely blue skin. And I think something like five or six arms on each side of his body, but I could be misremembering that — it’s been about 8 years since this incident, and six since I’ve been to that restaurant.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 2:22 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
Regarding pm and jeff’s comments:
Why are you assuming that the cultures that are being appropriated are confined to the countries they originated from? When speaking of appropriating Japanese culture, even if Japan as a country may be economically equal, those of Japanese descent who live in North America are not considered equal. And it is their culture as well that is being appropriated.
Or even if South Asians who grew up in South Asia may not feel offended, those of us who grew up in North America do.
Your comments are completely ignoring our existence in North America.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 2:26 pm ¶
Titanis walleri wrote:
“if Japan uses bits of the culture of Western countries (which wouldn’t bother me one iota)?”
And there’s no “if” involved, they use (and misuse) the hell out of bits of Western cultures (including Christian imagery).
For example, while it doesn’t seem to be as common these days, but cruxifixion imagery was rampant in anime/manga/games for a while…
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 4:28 pm ¶
Lxy wrote:
@pm
Japan is a first world nation, but that doesn’t make it a cultural “equal” in the eyes of the West–and certainly not in the perspective of Anglos/Americans.
Beneath all the propaganda about celebrating diversity or multiculturalism, the “Lost in Translation” syndrome is alive and well when it comes to Western treatment of Japan.
This review of that film touches upon some of these broader attitudes.
Is Lost in Translation Racist?
http://www.arc.org/racewire/031112e_paik.html
There is the little fact that America’s imperial troops have been occupying parts of Japan for the past half-century or so–”to defend freedom and democracy” of course.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 6:11 pm ¶
ashlynn wrote:
Yup, I think this post has hit home. I’m a very curious person, always open to new things. When I was a kid, I loved to just watch a spanish news network all day find a random book in the culture section of the library and dig in. I’ve often fallen in love with traditions and customs from other cultures, but was too afraid to mention it or incorporate it into my life because I didn’t want to be perceived by those around me as a traitor, nor did I want to offend those who hail from that culture.
Most recently, in my senior year I happened to be going down Roosevelt Ave. in Queens(cultural mindf–!), and saw the most beeeautiful yellow sari in a shop window. I could instantly picture myself wearing that to prom. I’ve had my share of image issues over the years, and I could really see that sari representing my coming into my own skin as a strong, beautiful young woman. But as soon as I brought it up with anyone, I caught hell for wanting to “be something else”, or for trying to make claim to all these different nationalities(a reason I rarely bring up my Cherokee ancestry). Unfortunately I was scared into wearing a simple regular dress; I know I would have loved that night 1000 times more had I gone with what I felt.
I guess the point i’m trying to make here is that when it comes to incorporating other cultures elsewhere, someone always gets caught in the middle. There are people who actually do take the time to learn and understand, but in the midst of gross commercialization and our collective obsessive hunger for trends, any cries of authenticity fall on deaf ears.
Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 9:41 pm ¶
Medea wrote:
@ Lxy
When you say “occupy,” what do you mean? That there are military camps dotted around, as in Germany and South Korea, or that they actually have some control over certain areas?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 3:48 am ¶
jeff wrote:
Sobia. I never said no Asians were bothered, I said that you said that the Asians of YOUR aquaintaince didnt seem too bothered. But why does it upset you, for example, to see a white, black or other inappropriately coloured person with a ganesh t-shirt on? If someone just digs the art work how can it be such a problem? Isnt it a good thing to be exposed to and enjoy other cultures? Wont familiarity with exotic things reduce the otherness factor generally?
Atlasien
What if ‘real’ italian is just really bad at cooking and has entered a competition with you as to who can make the best lasagne? Is it still forbidden to claim yours is better?
Ruchma
Sounds like it could be krishna with the blue skin so maybe your friend really was picking up of some cross cultural vibes then. Cool!
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 4:03 am ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ ashlynn:
“Unfortunately I was scared into wearing a simple regular dress; I know I would have loved that night 1000 times more had I gone with what I felt.”
Now, I’m not trying to sound insensitive here, but growing up I was too scared to express my own culture and be myself in public *all the time,* not just on random occasions like a prom. I would have loved to be able to go with what I felt my whole life but was forced to not. So I’m having a hard time sympathizing with you on that.
If I saw you at my prom in a yellow sari I would have been offended no matter how much you knew about South Asian culture, because no amount of education or knowledge of the culture would enable you to know what it feels like to be made to feel weird, abnormal, or unwelcome because of being South Asian.
It’s good that you are interested in many different cultures and want to learn about them. You should. But you should also understand the limits of what you can know. If a South Asian person tells you it’s offensive to them that you want to wear a sari to your prom then try to understand why instead of feeling sorry for yourself that you weren’t “allowed” to do what you wanted.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 12:24 pm ¶
jeff wrote:
sobia,
why are YOUR feelings the decider when it comes to what dresses people are allowed to wear? A sari is just an everyday garment worn by hundreds of millions of women everyday.
Im sorry that you grew up feeling weird or abnormal but i dont think jealously guarding things you percieve to be belonging to you by a genetic birth right will do anything to solve the problems facing people.
Ive got a ganesh sticker on the front of my car. I like the way it looks and ganesh is the remover of obstacles (hence the car association) and many many people have him in their cars for luck. Am I offending you by doing this? It certainly didnt uppset the man in bombay i bought the sticker off of when I told him what I would be doing with it. Its just interesting that US based people seem to be much more sensitive as to what they percieve to be their culture, even though they have lived in the US all their lives.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 12:57 pm ¶
vcious wrote:
This touches me because I’m a white girl who’s never been to India (so far) but enjoy and somewhat regularly watch Bollywood films (as well as less mainstream Indian films, films in regional languages etc). I think – if I’m really honest with myself – the root of this hobby was somewhat exoticizing the culture where these films came from (something “different”, something colourful and more romantic than Hollywood films, my usual fare).
But the more I saw, the more I also read about the culture behind those films; history, politics, customs, religion, languages.
Nowadays I’ve seen quite a lot of Indian films but I shy away from taking cultural things that belong to Indian people and using them myself. I wouldn’t dream of wearing a sari, or a bindi, and I cringe whenever the culture is reduced to vapid song&dance in Western media (and I friggin’ love said song&dance!). I discuss the films online with South Asian people, non-South Asian people, and it’s a tough balance to maintain, because I *never* want to make somebody feel like I’m imposing my views on a cultural product of their culture. My views are not right; they are merely mine. But the discussions, the connections I’ve made to South Asians both in India and outside, have been fruitful.
One thing I wonder how South Asian people in Scandinavia feel about is the chain store Indiska (indiska.com), which has clothing, jewellery and decorations that are just Indian enough to be foreign but close to home enough not to feel “too ethnic”. It’s quite a weird thing.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 1:07 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@Jeff:
It’s not about MY feelings only. I’m not the only South Asian who feels this way. This does not deny that there are many South Asians who will not agree with me, however, THEIR being ok with it also does not deny that there are many who get offended.
“Its just interesting that US based people seem to be much more sensitive as to what they percieve to be their culture, even though they have lived in the US all their lives.”
So what are you saying? You’re in North America now so forget about your culture of origin?
And I agree with atlasien. This isn’t about the culture itself, but rather the people.
“When people like us complain about appropriation, it’s not because we feel like we own the culture and no one else is allowed to borrow from it. It’s not about things, it’s about people… people who feel entitled to treat us like dirt because of their supposed connection to the culture.”
Exactly.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 1:56 pm ¶
Wendi Muse wrote:
i think roy’s commentary on cultural appropriation are interesting, but they raise many questions for me, the main ones being the following:
1. who has rights over culture as property? this somewhat reminds me of the intellectual property disputes regarding fashion and the use of runway ware in mass reproduction (for companies like h&m and forever 21). technically, the fashion that comes to use via runway has been recycled and appropriated from other cultures, inspired by other designers, etc… how do we decide the origin of an idea? especially if it’s cultural concept that comes from decades if not centuries of exchange?
2. who holds the reigns to cultural consumption? who is the authority to say ok other people cannot use, wear, do this?
3. is cultural appropriation necessarily a bad thing? hardly anything is “original” and exclusive to one group of people, even the things we think are indigenous…
4. where do we draw the line? clothing one day, religion, philosophy, and thought the next? this is what complicates the discussion further, in my opinion. what are the aspects of culture that was off limits to “others”?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 2:50 pm ¶
jeff wrote:
sobia, but isnt the culture you are referencing as your own far more relaxed about non-indians wearing bindis or saris? I just dont see how you could take a girl, wearing a sari she though was pretty, to her prom as a personal insult.
“”It’s not about things, it’s about people… people who feel entitled to treat us like dirt because of their supposed connection to the culture.”
Exactly.”"
Again, how is somebody wearing a sari or having a lunchbox in any way connected to treating people like dirt?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 3:06 pm ¶
Evan Carden wrote:
@Sobia,
Sorry, I’m not understanding, if it’s cultural appropriation to treat people badly because you thin you know more about their culture than they do, as atlasian said
“people who feel entitled to treat us like dirt because of their supposed connection to the culture.”
Then how does ashlynn’s attempt to purchase a sari, or her desire to wear it to prom count as cultural appropriation?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 3:46 pm ¶
vcious wrote:
Jeff, I think it’s all connected to the general “okayness” of white people adopting cultural symbols of other cultures and rarely being treated poorly because of it. When a white girl wears a sari, she’s cool and open to other cultures. When a girl of South Asian descent wears a sari, people may treat her as fresh-off-the-boat, as more foreign and “other”. A Canadian online friend of mine who’s of SA descent expressed this once in her blog and how she felt these ethnic clothing items were in a sense being taken away from her. It just doesn’t feel right.
I think it’s okay to fiercely adore any aspect of a foreign culture you find interesting if you’re respectful about it, and recognize that just because somebody from said culture doesn’t know about your interest (eg some Japanese-Americans with anime), they still have a deeper knowledge of that culture than you’ll ever have, being native to that culture. In that sense I echo atlasien. It all comes down to respect.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 4:02 pm ¶
ashlynn wrote:
Sobia,
Wow. I honestly wasn’t expecting that. If anything, I would imagine you’d understand where I was coming from, especially if you were never able to express your true self in real life. No, I cannot truly understand what it is like to be discriminated against as a South Asian, but growing up and having the black kids tell me I was too white because I was well spoken and the white kids being so surprised that I was well spoken definitely counts for something. Discrmination is discrimination. I would have worn that sari having the utmost respect and appreciation for where it was coming from. Yet for example you have people like the Pussycat Dolls chopping them up into shreds, ruining a beautiful song, yet hardly much outcry.
So why would you feel that it would be okay to judge me and tell me to not wear a certain style of dress because you weren’t able to? If I feel like it is a part of me, then you denying me that would be just a wrong as those who denied you.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 4:05 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
But there’s a power imbalance there that influences things when it comes to India and the West. If they became a “first world” nation tomorrow, perhaps they’d become much more restrictive about what parts of their culture were for sale. We don’t know. But let’s not pretend that who has the most money and who needs it the most couldn’t possibly play a part in the difference in “relaxation” you see, jeff. Also, Indian Americans, as people who know American culture, may be more knowledgeable about how their fellow countrymen perceive Indian people despite their consumption of Indian culture than a native Indian, and therefore view these actions with warranted cynicism.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 4:13 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
To me this issue is summed up well in a line from the indie movie about South Asian Americans “Dude, Where’s the Party?” (Don’t laugh. It was actually quite entertaining)
In it, one Indian American girl asks, (and this is paraphrased) “Why is it that when a white girl wears shalwar kameez she is cool but when an Indian girl wears it she’s a fob?”
In other words, why is it that when a white person appropriates our culture they’re cool and progressive, but when we express it we’re foreigners and different?
And this, to me, really gets at the heart of the matter. For instance, staff on my campus have fairly negative views of international students and as thus I have seen them mistreat and talk down to international students. Now tomorrow, if a white girl showed up to campus in a sari, no one would assume she was foreign and mistreat her, but if I were to show up in a sari, I would be treated like an international student – talked down to. Now that white girl can get away with wearing the sari but not having to deal with the negative responses that those of us of colour and who are from that culture have to put up with for the exact same behaviour.
Therefore, when people appropriate another’s culture they get the privilege of not having to deal with the antagonism that those of that culture have to deal with because of those same behaviours.
How is that not about treating people like dirt?
@ Jeff:
If you still don’t get it, then I’m afraid I can’t help you.
Appropriate away.
@ Wendi Muse:
I don’t think it’s a matter of what is or isn’t off limits. It’s a matter of understanding and respecting the experiences of those whose culture one is appropriating. For instance, those Palestinians scarves everyone was wearing for fashion, and not in solidarity. To not understand the significance of those scarves is incredibly disrespectful to those suffering in Palestine and resisting oppression, very often by giving up their lives. How can that appropriation ever be considered acceptable?
Again, if a white girl wants to wear the sari then she should understand and truly recognize the discrimination that many South Asian women have experienced for that exact same behaviour. Otherwise, she is trivializing their struggles against oppression. Considering for many women wearing traditional clothing in public may actually be a form of resistance, to make that form of resistance into a fad or something fun and funky will be seen as offensive by some women.
Again, if people want to appropriate another’s culture, no one will stop them. But then they should not feel shocked or sorry for themselves if someone gets upset at them for it.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 4:16 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
@Jeff: you just don’t get it, because you refuse to turn on your sense of empathy or even try to walk a mile in someone’s else shoes.
If you grow up with white people making fun of you and pointing you out for looking, acting and speaking differently, and then find that all of a sudden they appreciate and pay lots of money for symbols of that difference… then symbols of your culture in their possession start seeming more like symbols of hypocrisy and lack of empathy.
When you say “Im sorry that you grew up feeling weird or abnormal but i dont think jealously guarding things you percieve to be belonging to you by a genetic birth right will do anything to solve the problems facing people” you’re just duplicating that pattern. In other words, you’re arguing that white people’s need to possess cultural things is much more important than the pain felt by other people.
Again, this is not about who owns what or who has the rights to what. It’s about how some people treat other people (badly).
Having a Ganesh sticker on your car is pretty much irrelevant, as a fact considered by itself. But the fact that you’d use owning the Ganesh sticker as an attack combined with a patronizing fake apology… that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 4:44 pm ¶
Wendi Muse wrote:
and sorry, i am just trying to introduce more things into this discussion, but how do we account for people of color appropriating things from other groups? these arguments often get framed in a poc vs. white people sort of way, but what about poc appropriating from other poc?
also, what do we do with say, poc from other countries appropriating american-based poc culture (i.e. rap music, hip hop vernacular, clothing, etc)
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 5:20 pm ¶
TeakLipstickFiend wrote:
@Jeff – I think what Atlasien meant (and Atlasien will correct me if I’m wrong) – and this is what I understood Sandip Roy to say – is that some people are happy to appropriate from another culture, while still looking down on the people whose culture it is, i.e. “like your sari, but I don’t like you”.
A friend talked me into doing a Bollywood dance class this year. I have to say I really enjoy it and have enjoyed the few Bollywood films I’ve seen. (I’m white, by the way.)
I do remember feeling somewhat like a cultural plunderer when looking for a “Bollywood” outfit to wear to class in the shops at Porte de la Chapelle. I felt that wearing these clothes just for a class would be…disrespectful somehow – but then maybe that’s exotification to think that? What does everyone think?
Our teacher (born on Ile de la Réunion and of Indian heritage) says on her website that teaching the class allows her to share her passion with a wide range of people. Indeed the students in the class, while mostly white, are also black, Asian, North African and most seem to be into and knowledgeable about Bollywood film (much more so than I).
Are they in it just for the saris? I don’t know. However, walking to the metro from class one day with a fellow student (not the friend who took me to the class) she said of the area – a primarily non-white neighbourhood – “I love coming here it’s so exotic”. There was something faintly patronising about the way she said it that made me feel uncomfortable and I had to wonder if she really liked the saris, but not the people in them.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 5:25 pm ¶
Azizi wrote:
” …isnt the culture you are referencing as your own far more relaxed about non-indians wearing bindis or saris?”
-Jeff
It may be possible that if people living in India are more relaxed about non-Indian wearing bindis or saris, it’s because those elements of their culture may mean different things to them than they do to Indians living in Anglo-centric USA. Maybe they don’t need the cultural reinforcement as much as South Asians in the USA do.
As an African American growing up in the 1950s during the age of Tarzan movies, there were few things that I felt we (AAs) had that helped us develop and reinforce group pride and acceptance about being of African descent. One of those things were spirituals. To this day I confess that I cringe when I hear White people (trying to) sing those songs-especially when they sing them with what they think is an authentic 19th century Black dialect (which is whole ‘nuther subject).
But, closer to this subject of cultural borrowing and cultural appropriation, one of the current symbols of African American pride in our African heritage is Akan (Ghanaian) kente cloth. Kente cloth designs are found on all manner of products such as clothing, greeting cards, gift wrap, tablecloths and napkins, Kwanzaa/Christmas balls, and even umbrellas. It has become a tradition for African American university graduate to wear kente cloth stoles (sometimes in their fraternity/sorority colors and insigna) over their graduation robes. I think we need kente cloth and other such symbols to reinforces African American pride in our African heritage because of the oppressiveness of “mainstream” society which denies and minimizes anything positive about that heritage.
Given the significance of kente cloth to African Americans and (what I believe is) our need to have external symbols , I would not be in favor of Anglo-Americans appropriating this custom of wearing kente cloth stoles for graduation. Nor would I like White pastors to wear kente cloth stoles over their church robes as many African American ministers do. However, I would not be opposed to other people of color doing so-as long as they gave credit to Akan people as the originators of that cloth.
Yet, to muddy this water even more, I’ve read that initially anyway, some Ghanaians weren’t happy that African Americans took their Akan cultural product that was for formal use only and used it for everyday products or everyday wear. Did we (African Americans) have the right to do that to “their ” (or is it also “our”) cultural product? I’d answer yes, and no since it appears to me that so many African Americans aren’t aware of and don’t give honor and credit to the culture that originated kente cloth. I think giving credit to the culture of origin is key.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 6:02 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:
My older sister’s best friend is from Bangladesh. (Born there, but her family moved to the US when she was a baby and she grew up in the US.) Several years ago, when she and my sister were in college and I was in high school, she stayed with our family for a summer. Once during that summer, during a playing-around-with-hair-and-makeup session, she took out a tube of henna and offered to draw henna tattoos on all three of us. I thought it sounded cool, and was always happy to be included in whatever they were doing, really, so I said sure and got a flower on the back of my hand with vines trailing up my arm.
It was cool when I went to work that week to be the girl with the neat henna tattoo, and the explain to everyone what henna was and where it was from, and I do actually think that it looked really pretty just from an aesthetic perspective, and is a neat option because my religion forbids permanent tattoos, but I don’t think I’d ever just buy the henna and put it on myself. It seems too much like it could be taken the wrong way, and actually doing something like that to my body, even if it isn’t permanent, seems much more uncomfortably like appropriation than just, say, eating the food does. (And I do cook Indian-style food all the time, since I’m vegan and Indian food gives me lots of options.)
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 6:15 pm ¶
Azizi wrote:
I hasten to say that the main reason why I wouldn’t mind other people of color adopting the African American custom of wearing kente cloth stoles for graduation (as an example of cultural borrowing) is because I believe that one tie that binds all people of color in the USA is the fact that we are all seen as “other” and also less than in this Anglo-centric society. For that reason, I think it is a courtesy among “family” to share part of our cultural products with other “family” members.
But, even while I think this way, I know that we are all part of the human family. And I know that there are times that I have more in common with some White people than with some other Black people or other people of color. So I’m not particularly proud of where I am about my point of view on this matter. But I’m just being honest about it.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 6:16 pm ¶
Alegna wrote:
In general, most people hate being disrespected. Using these items while hating and disrespecting the cultures that these items come from is disrespectful and insulting. Far worse is proclaiming some sort of expertise of the culture or people that the items belong to while still maintaining hateful and racist ideas about the culture and people.
@Wendi If the PoC who do that fit the above criteria, I would think SAs would hate that, being a PoC does not excuse ignorance or disrespect.
As someone who is a member of hip hop culture, I love when I see hip hop loved and embraced by people across the world who love, embrace and become members of the culture in the way that I am. I hate when it is appropriated by people who don’t respect the culture or the creators of the culture–regardless of their group identity.
A great example of this is Planet B-Boy. All of the groups represented in the film were geninue b-boys. They were members of the culture and fully represented and almost every country in the world was represented. Watching two of the b-boys from Korea and Japan was especially touching because they used the form to represent not just hip hop but love for their Japanese and Korean heritages, and the relationships they had with their fathers.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 6:22 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ Wendi Muse:
“how do we account for people of color appropriating things from other groups? ”
I think in similar ways. It all comes down to understanding what is behind the action that we are appropriating no matter what our own culture or ethnicity is.
During Israel’s attack on Gaza, I attended rallies and talks in support of Palestine but not once did I wear the kaffiyeh, because I felt, that even though I would be wearing it out of solidarity, it wasn’t my place to wear it. I cannot understand what it feels like to live under siege and occupation and so cannot fully grasp the depth and meaning of that scarf. Instead I showed my support in other ways, including publicizing the plight of Palestinians.
As for American based pop culture goes, I think the dynamics are a little different. America is the most powerful country in the world and American media the most pervasive. America is purposely trying to push it’s culture onto other nations and portray it’s culture as the best. It is a form of media imperialism. So other countries appropriating American pop culture is different than people in North America appropriating things from other cultures. The power dynamic is very different.
Having said that, I do find it incredibly irritating when I see people in other parts of the world appropriating rap/hip hop music for reasons of fame and popularity, instead of as the form of resistance and political voice it is/was. I’m not speaking of those who use hip hop as their own way to resist or speak out, but rather those just wanting to be more American and make some money in the process.
@ Ashlynn:
I’m sorry you felt hurt by my comment but I only spoke what I felt. I appreciate your efforts and interest in other cultures. As I said, we should all continue to seek knowledge about other cultures. But we also have to understand our limits.
You said discrimination is discrimination. Not really. Not all discrimination is the same. For instance, I will never, as a South Asian child of immigrants, understand the discrimination a First Nations person, whose people have experienced such intense violence from the colonizers, experiences. It is outside my scope of understanding. At the same time, they cannot understand the discrimination an immigrant, or children of immigrants, to Canada experience. We can empathize with each other and support each other, but understanding and knowing each other’s discrimination would be hard. They are not the same kind of discrimination. Those in power see us differently. We’re both still inferior but in different ways and to different extents.
“I would have worn that sari having the utmost respect and appreciation for where it was coming from.”
Where does the sari come from? How would you convey that appreciation and respect to those who have experienced discrimination based on that clothing? And does it really matter what you feel inside if that isn’t conveyed somehow to the people you risk offending?
Perhaps, instead of wearing the sari yourself you could work to make it so that those South Asian bodies who wear it because that is their culture, are no longer otherized in their home, no longer ridiculed for wearing it, no longer looked down upon and looked at as inferior. That would be respect and appreciation.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 6:23 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“and sorry, i am just trying to introduce more things into this discussion, but how do we account for people of color appropriating things from other groups? these arguments often get framed in a poc vs. white people sort of way, but what about poc appropriating from other poc?”
That’s something I was wondering about, and something that ashlynn touched on, briefly. POC that take on aspects of other cultures are sometimes pitied/looked down upon by their own, because the basic assumption is that they’re trying to “escape” or hide from their own racial identity, while white people who act similarly are assumed to want to add something to make themselves more interesting. Also, what if the person actually can be misread as a member of the race? A white girl in a sari is pretty obvious… a dark-skinned Latina in a sari, however, may actually be treated in a discriminatory manner by the faculty that sobia uses in her example.
“I also find many South Asians who do not have a problem with this (in my own experience those who were raised in South Asia) and see it as flattering that white people would “want to be like us” or are “appreciating” our culture.”
And then, there’s this. People that may be flattered about cultural appreciation from whites may be simultaneously….. not so ecstatic about appreciation from less admired racial groups. However, while, say, blacks don’t have white privilege, we also don’t have the stigma of “eternal foreignness” that Asian Americans have, so the experiences are different. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can explain.
“Having a Ganesh sticker on your car is pretty much irrelevant, as a fact considered by itself. But the fact that you’d use owning the Ganesh sticker as an attack combined with a patronizing fake apology… that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about.”
I think he’s taking the conversation personally. At 14, I was that jackass walking around with the upside-down bindi, trying to be Gwen, because after all, she had Gavin. I wore self-applied mehndi that I bought in a kit from a bookstore in my H.S. graduation photo. There’s a salwar khameez in my closet, Hot Topic bangles in my jewelry box — I was guilty. But my ego doesn’t stop me from thinking critically about the choices I’ve made, how they may have impacted others, and how I can make more informed choices in the future… in part, because I know that I’m prone to making them.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 6:48 pm ¶
layla wrote:
As a South Asian myself, I think the problem boils down to cultural appropriation vs cultural appreciation. I know of many people who genuinely love and respect Indian culture, and while that can be very sweet, it is also a slippary line between appreciation and exoticization. If one of my friends wanted to wear Indian garb to my wedding or another Indain function, I would be fine with it, because it would be done out of respect for my culture. But if they were just wearing it for the hell of it I would have a serious problem. Many people take the Bollywood movies, the beautiful saris, the Indian food, and the cool looking gods, but they remove those things from a genuine understanding of the culture. I always say there is more to being Indian, than Bollywood and samosas! It’s just too easy to get into stereotyping the culture, to think that because you get Bollywood, you get what it means to really live the everyday exisistance of an Indian person. It also leads into gross examples of exoticization of the people and the culture. I once had a guy sing Bollywood Hindi songs to me, (never mind the fact that I don’t understand Hindi) because hey! I’m Indian..that’s my culture right? It also leads to serious disrespect of the culture. When I see people wearing bindis, or things with Hindu gods depicted on them, I always wonder how you can take something that is spiritually significant and meanginful to someone, and just commodify it like that. I saw a home decor show which encouraged people to place small Ganesha figures in their house, refering to the Hindu deity, as “kitschy, cute guy!” They completely stripped the figure of any and ALL religious meaning, and significance. I think with respect to South Asian culture, we have had to put up with the commodification of our culture for decades. The entire yoga culture is essentially Indian lite, Indian culture, packaged as a lifestyle for “cool” people. The spiritual significance of Hindu deities, and om symbols, has been taken away, and as a South Asian, and as a Hindu I have a MAJOR problem with that. You want my culture, but you don’t want to really understand it, or learn about it. In a perfect world, maybe I would be ok with a non-Indian wearing a sari to her prom, but when I see a non-Indian wearing something like that, it’s just a really loaded image.
To the person who wrote: “Its just interesting that US based people seem to be much more sensitive as to what they percieve to be their culture, even though they have lived in the US all their lives.” I think you have to understand that Indians living abroad have to constantly deal with this type of issue, whereas Indians in India do not. Those of us living in North America and in the West in general, are forced to encounter things from our culture being mis-appropriated, and mis-construed. We have to deal with being seen as Too-Indian, or Too-Western, and we have to constantly navigate the minefield of racial politics in the West. To an Indian in India, if a tourist wants to buy a sticker off you, you aren’t going to be concerned about the mis-appropriation of your culture, you just want the revenue that sticker brings. But that sticker here in the West, is loaded with meaning.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 7:08 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
@Wendi & DivergentDana: I think that the major difference between cultural appropriation when done by white people is that white people don’t have any frame of reference for what it feels like to be targeted.
People from minority groups can also be cultural appropriators… but they do have that frame of reference. For example, I was instantly able to think about examples on the Japanese side… and I just saw Azizi’s comment about kente cloth for African-Americans, that’s yet another parallel. So there’s a greater possibility of communication and genuine understanding between people of color when complaining about cultural appropriation.
In these types of debates, in the past, I’ve tried creating analogies for white people to better grasp the concept, but it’s insanely difficult. For example, a white American person growing up somewhere like Japan would still benefit from global white privilege and wouldn’t have the same sense that they were being systematically alienated from their own culture by implacable forces.
So white people really have to make a radical leap of empathy in this area. Many of them do, which is great, but too many get stuck at the resentful “I don’t know what they’re talking about and I don’t deserve to have to think about it any harder because I didn’t do anything wrong” stage.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 8:07 pm ¶
pm wrote:
@Sobia
But who’s to say the ‘authentic’ rap/hip hop is as a ‘form of resistance’? Surely, don’t many bone-fide African Americans use it for ‘reasons of fame and popularity’? Isn’t using it to get rich also ‘authentic’? Perhaps it is only on condition that you start poor? Maybe its when rich people use it to get even richer that it is really deviating from its origins?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 8:28 pm ¶
pm wrote:
I think perhaps one needs to make a careful definition of what ‘appropriation’ is. The more I think about it the more confused I become.
E.g. I’m not aware of British South Asians who have a problem with the British love of South Asian food as such, even though there are must be a significant number of white racists who couldn’t do without their biryani.
layla mentioned samosas, but to me, growing up in London, south asian food _is_ part of the culture I grew up with, even if it doesn’t include every other aspect of those countries’ cultures. As is the presence of South Asian people and languages (even though I don’t understand them). As it happens my dad is South Asian (I’m deliberately being vague here, don’t like giving away more personal information than necessary), but I’m both ‘white’ (pretty much) and culturally English.
Surely the entire population, even the racists, are aware that South Asian cuisine was bought here largely by actual South Asians, and is still mosty produced by people of that heritage? So does it then cease to be ‘appropriation’ to regularly eat the food? Even if its in the form of microwaved meals from the supermarket? (Which it often is, for me). Granted, the adverts for the supermarket version are often a bit crass, so perhaps the food is OK but some of the adverts aren’t?
My dad, used to wear a Sarong around the house, and on the one occasion I visited my relatives over there they pretty much insisted I wore one, but I’d feel completely daft and pretentious wearing it here (even indoors) because it just isn’t me, as I’m culturally English. It didn’t seem to stop David Beckham though – but was that offensive or just amusing?
I don’t entirely understand the impulse to artificially grab bits of other cultures (the way celebrities from Madonna to David Beckham seem to do), but what if it creeps up on you because its ubiquitous in your own environment, as with South Asian food in London?
I also like some South Asian music, even without really being at all knowledgeable about it, partly just from picking random stuff from my local public library (which in fact _only_ stocks South Asian music). Is music not something that you can simply like, on a purely non-intellectual level, without a deep understanding of the culture it comes from?
I don’t know, I honestly think there are a lot of nuances here. But I can see there are also red lines one can wonder across unwittingly.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 8:39 pm ¶
pm wrote:
@atlasien
I take your point regarding being lectured about something that someone else has just read about in books when its part of your personal experience.
That kind of thing is certainly very _annoying_ but normally I wouldn’t think of it as a _political_ issue.
However, perhaps it is when it intersects with a general power disadvantage for Japanese-Americans relative to the annoying white people who are lecturing them. So apologies, I’m not that familiar with the history of Japanese-Americans.
There’s still a difference though, surely, between someone just being ‘into’ some aspect of Japanese culture and banging on about it in a really annoying way to a Japanese American?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 8:50 pm ¶
ashlynn wrote:
For starters, I’m not white. One of the points I was trying to address was that- as someone mentioned- when a POC pays some sort of homage to another culture, they don’t want to be themselves, but if a white person does the same, they are advanced, enlightened, or what have you. Just as Indians have to deal with being “Too Indian”, African Americans deal with being “Too Black.” I always find it frustrating when POC try to disassociate themselves or put down other POC. Why? All in all we are coming from a similar place. some of the language, the ideas, or the dress may differ, but surely there is enough common ground to be able to respect and embrace each other.
I’m glad kente cloth was brought up. I don’t wear it- not because of some dislike for it or anything, I just don’t have any. If I came across a nice piece I’d probably pick it up. Anyway, if someone else outside my race were wearing it, at fist glance I’d be a little startled. “What does he know about that?” I might joke. But all in all, whether it’s a symbol of the AA community, I don’t even wear it myself, so how could I be offended if someone else wants to(as long as it’s not fetishizing or disrespecting it)? And even if I wore it, I’d think the same. I personally cannot stop someone from making a choice. Perhaps talk to them and see why they made it, but that is all.
Also, I would have no problem working toward cultivating openness and respect for South Asians and their culture, but I would be personally offended if I were to do that work, but not be allowed to partake in some shape or form in the very culture I’m working to help. Would I tell a South Asian person that he could help out with a cause specific to African Americans but not allow him to even be a part of it?
Finally, i’d like to add that after my initial sari idea was rejected by my friends, I opted for a more stylized lehenga- which I know are more wedding appropriate depending on how elaborate it becomes- which was also ridiculed. However, I made pains to make sure I chose one that was designed to be a bit more western than the traditional lehenga choli. Now, if I had worn that, and someone of SA descent was opposed to it, at that it’s just nitpicking. At some point you can’t pick and choose what is designated as your culture, and can’t be had, and what can be had.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 9:24 pm ¶
Suzy wrote:
((( If I saw you at my prom in a yellow sari I would have been offended no matter how much you knew about South Asian culture, because no amount of education or knowledge of the culture would enable you to know what it feels like to be made to feel weird, abnormal, or unwelcome because of being South Asian )))
+++++++
Sobia, as a British-Indian person, I am offended by your mean-spirited ‘offence’ and belief that you have the right to police who and who cannot appreciate and participate in Indian culture.
I have lots of white friends who listen to bhangra music, who spent time travelling around India, who do yoga, who have dated Indian people, who know all about Indian cuisine, music, movies, and religion. The idea that anyone could be offended by their natural affinity for Indian culture and Indian cultural symbols is so crude and mean spirited its unbelievable. In a multi-cultural society you cannot police other peoples curiousity about different cultures. To say that anyone who wears a bindi or admires Hindu iconography is a racist in and of itself, regardless of their own lives and experience is an ideological space I find horrific.
I remember reading about how Nelly Furtado grew up in Toronto and her best friends were Indian. She hung out with them, learnt how to speak some Punjabi and Hindi, learnt how to sing a few songs. So I’m at her concert a few years ago and she starts singing the classic Hindi song ‘Kabhi Kabhi’. No doubt in the world you dream of, such a simple example of cultural mixing is in and of itself racist. What a horrible thought and what a horrible world that is.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 10:06 pm ¶
Suzy wrote:
“Ive got a ganesh sticker on the front of my car. I like the way it looks and ganesh is the remover of obstacles (hence the car association) and many many people have him in their cars for luck. Am I offending you by doing this? It certainly didnt uppset the man in bombay i bought the sticker off of when I told him what I would be doing with it. ”
+++++++
Jeff, Sobia is Muslim so I doubt she is offended by that, and she would be utterly preposterous to suggest it is so.
Of course the man in Bombay who sold it to you wasn’t offended, and nor should you in any way feel self-conscious for having the image of Ganesh with you.
You are blessed to be open minded enough to display it, it is a great representation of the grassroots pluralism of the divine iconography of Indian civilisation, and Jeff, as a British-Indian, I will smile if I ever see you with your Ganesh sticker
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 10:12 pm ¶
Joy wrote:
To everyone who has said that they have a problem with people wearing/using things from a different culture because the *person* behind the culture is not appreciated, only the *object* is appreciated – this will be true of some people, but not all. Unless you ask each person their reasons, you might make an erroneous assumption.
I encourage anyone to just wear/eat/speak whatever you feel like – I’m not judging you when you do it and a lot of other people aren’t either. Confidence/pride is a universally appreciated trait. (To anyone who might take this the wrong way, don’t.)
@Azizi – LOL, when I hear white people singing spirituals in church (or other events) I’m like “Humph! Ya’ll are messing the song up.” I then have to admit to myself that I’m hating & it’s *church* I need to cut it out.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 10:35 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:
I remember reading an article a little while ago that said that pictures and little figurines of the golem were getting popular in Prague again, and that a lot of the people buying them had no idea that it was a Jewish folk tale — they thought it was just something Czech.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 11:37 pm ¶
kate wrote:
thank you all for the interesting and enlightening conversation (as usual!!).
re: the spirituals, we always had to sing spirituals in choir when I was a kid and it made me feel awkward as all heck because it would be like 25 white kids and only a few people of color, led by a white music instructor singing to an audience of mostly white parents. i still don’t think that omitting those would have been a preferable option though, because in teaching us the spirituals, we were also taught about the role of music in resistance to slavery. i feel it would have been more disrespectful to ignore the nonwhite cultures in the US and just sing “white” music. what do you all think? could there have been a better solution?
i am sort of interested in how this all applies to language learning. I studied spanish for 8 years and mandarin for 3 and people always think it’s “so cool” that i can watch telenovelas or speak to people in mandarin. but speaking spanish *as a native* probably marks someone as “foreign” and probably in our political situation at present, an “illegal immigrant”. and speaking chinese as a first language will also likely equally mark someone as an outsider. so again there’s this problem of when the white girl (me) does it it’s cool and progressive, but for people who don’t have to go to chinese class 5 days a week, it labels them an outsider. how is that fair? plus, there are definitely issues of class and other things involved because I have the educational resources to learn the language, but what about someone who doesn’t have those resources? for example, my father always thought it was really important for me and my brothers to learn spanish because his father, whose parents were from spain, didn’t want anyone to think his family was cuban (*ugh*) and so insisted that they maintain an “anglo” culture and only speak english in the home. how would a kid like my dad feel if confronted with someone like me, who has had the opportunity to study abroad to learn spanish? it is something i have had to think about a lot and that i am struggling with lately. i don’t know if i will ever reconcile those things but feeling uncomfortable is small beans comparatively. thoughts?
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 11:44 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ Suzy:
“Sobia, as a British-Indian person, I am offended by your mean-spirited ‘offence’ and belief that you have the right to police who and who cannot appreciate and participate in Indian culture.”
I’m assuming you meant to say I have no right.
And I did not say I was speaking for all South Asians. Please read my other comments. I did say there will be South Asians who will not agree with me. And that’s fine. But your being ok with it does not mean I have to be ok with it. I speak on my behalf and I also reflect the views of many of my South Asian friends. I’ve had this discussion with other South Asian friends of mine who feel the same as I do. I’ll let them know how mean spirited we all are for being offended.
I’m offended so I’m offended. I can’t not be offended because you don’t want me to be. I also did not realize that being offended was mean spirited.
And it’s not just about curiosity. It’s much more than that.
@pm #45:
The people I’m speaking of are those rich who appropriate it because it’s the “cool, American” thing to do. But these same people will often have very negative views of the same people who created the form.
But you make good points.
Posted 05 Jul 2009 at 11:46 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“No doubt in the world you dream of, such a simple example of cultural mixing is in and of itself racist. What a horrible thought and what a horrible world that is.”
She can speak for herself, but I don’t think that she accused the subjects of her ire of being racist. Could you please quote where she said so… perhaps I missed it.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 12:47 am ¶
Lxy wrote:
When you say “occupy,” what do you mean? That there are military camps dotted around, as in Germany and South Korea, or that they actually have some control over certain areas?
I mean that American military bases around the world (in over 100 different nations at last count!) are imperial outposts designed to enforce American domination over a given nation and broader geopolitical region.
If have another country’s military on your soil, you are not an autonomous nation. See the so-called Status of Forces Agreement (or SOFA) that the USA “negotiates” with various host countries that often grants US troops immunity from punishment when they commit crimes against the “natives.”
In many ways, the American Empire is the greatest empire in history–far surpassing that of the British empire or Rome itself.
America’s Empire of Bases
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-08.htm
The U.S. Global Empire
http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 3:31 am ¶
atlasien wrote:
@kate: When I was learning Spanish some of those issues came up. I felt pretty sensitive around Chicanos in Mexico who were learning Spanish, because I could empathize with the fact that many of them must have felt frustrated by non-Latinos (like me) who had a higher level of Spanish.
I never thought about NOT learning Spanish, though. I just had heightened sensitivities around certain people, and didn’t try to “show off” in front of them.
All those issues are valid issues, but if you allow them to influence you into NOT learning a language, you’re then succumbing, by default, to another powerful racist stream of thought: white Americans shouldn’t ever have to learn a second language, English is the best language in the world and Spanish is nasty and inferior, all other people should learn English if they want to communicate, if English was good enough for Jesus it’s good enough for me, etcetera etcetera.
Interestingly, when I was studying Spanish I had quite a few white Americans express amazement that I, a Japanese-American, was studying Spanish but couldn’t speak Japanese, because Japanese was obviously so much cooler and I had a special obligation to know how to speak it. I took a special kind of enjoyment in knowing I was messing up their expectations.
I don’t think that learning about issues of cultural appropriation and power imbalance should ever stop people from learning and reaching out. Ideally, knowing about these issues increases your ability to gather knowledge, because it heightens your sensitivity and allows you to hear other people more fully.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 8:00 am ¶
kate wrote:
@atlasien
“if English was good enough for Jesus it’s good enough for me”
LOL
But I think you are spot on…thanks for responding :]
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 9:00 am ¶
Sobia wrote:
I did not accuse anyone of being racist. That was just suzy making her own assumptions about my being offended. My being offended offended her.
As far as my being Muslim and so not being offended by the Hindu religion being appropriated by non-Hindus – I may be Muslim but I am offended by other people’s religions being appropriated for fads. It’s disrespectful to the religion and it’s followers to trivialize such things. And I have Hindu friends who find it very offensive.
I think what we’re speaking of here is what one of my favourite activists, Uzma Shakir, calls the “samosa and sari syndrome.” In this she is referring to Canadian multiculturalism, saying that Canadian multiculturalism has become about eating “ethnic” foods and wearing “ethnic” clothes but not about actually addressing or dealing with the issues faced by ethnic minorities – discrimination, unemployment, poverty, marginalisation, acculturation issues, mental health, etc. It’s about “celebrating” different cultures through superficial means but not actually recognizing or considering the people and their real experiences.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 9:16 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@The folks who were offended by Sandip’s statement –
Please go read the whole piece. She clearly articulates why she is uncomfortable with people treating her culture as something to be consumed. Pay specific attention to the Bollywood movie theater scenes on page three.
@the regulars –
Thanks, as usual, for holding down the fort.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 9:29 am ¶
atlasien wrote:
@PM:
“There’s still a difference though, surely, between someone just being ‘into’ some aspect of Japanese culture and banging on about it in a really annoying way to a Japanese American?”
Yes. But let’s take someone who is interested in Japanese culture. I have no idea if they’ll treat me obnoxiously or not, because I’m not telepathic. Some of them do, some of them don’t. But enough of them DO treat me obnoxiously to the point that I get wary of the entire group.
Determining good intention and innocence is a very, very difficult task (because we’re not telepathic). It can quickly become psychologically exhausting. I’m not saying I would abdicate the responsibility entirely, I just think the responsibility shouldn’t be entirely on me, the representative of the target culture. Instead, it should be shared. I think many other people on this thread are arguing for the same thing.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 9:39 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
I’d say you could extend that to the US & UK. Everything but the burden.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 10:01 am ¶
sandeep wrote:
regarding not addressing the issues, most people simply dont want to get their hands dirty. does it matter what race you are when you walk past a guy asking for cash on the street? nah, its just folks not digging charity. thats always going to be there. these issues usually get solved from the inside, at least to some degree, before getting outside help.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 10:14 am ¶
Azizi wrote:
kate: One of my concerns about predominately White schools teaching their choirs to sing African American spirituals is that these schools (and other schools) rarely fully integrate (and I purposely use that word) knowledge about African American history and cultures in their curriculum. And there’s a lot of fakelore about spirituals that people have to watch out for (such as all spirituals or most spirituals were coded messages that enslaved people used to let other people know that they were planning to escape slavery “soon and very soon” [Why in the world would a person planning to escape slavery give a heads up about this to all the Black folks in his/her plantation? What about the snitches? And how dumb would White people be who after a couple of times hearing that song wouldn’t connect it with a slave running away?}
My bottom line is, yes, the history of Black spirituals, 19th century non-religious songs (such as “Jim Along Josie” and “Juba”) and blues, and gospel, and jazz and other forms of Black music should be introduced in schools. However, I think that people-Black and non-Black-should be knowledgeable about what they teach, and they should be sensitive to the impact of what they teach (for instance, nix the song “Pick A Pale Of Cotton” no matter if it’s true that White folks picked cotton too.). Above all else, I believe that spirituals should never be sung publicly nowadays in so-called Black dialect (except for private groups of folkies who are in to that thing). And as for those White people who act like they know all about what these spirituals mean to Black folks, and for Black social songs (composed during slavery) to just be grouped into the “American folk music” category (which most folks think means “White” folk songs since “White” is the default referent in this nation), well let’s just say this is reflective of this nation’s Anglo-centrism.
I recognize that this is somewhat tangential to this topic.But for me, it’s part of my need as an African American to have some cultural things that are more mine than yours (with “yours” meaning White folks). I think it’s tied in to the history of this nation and the fact we (Black people) were always told that our ancestors never created anything of value (except spirituals and even with spirituals there are schools of thought that hold the view that all or most of these songs are rewrites of White songs). And maybe Black people and other People of Color wouldn’t be so concerned about White appropriation of POC cultural indices if White people didn’t have such a history of stealing elements of POC’s cultures and claiming them as their own.
Which is not to say that I’m not open to all people learning about other people’s cultures. But I strongly feel that this learning has to be predicated on respect for the people who originated those cultures and respect for the people within that population in the present.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 12:32 pm ¶
jeff wrote:
suzy, thanks for the back up! Interesting point re indian food in the UK. Curry is a british now as it is indian and i think it overtook fish and chips as the most popular takeaway in the land. But im sure 99% of people dont give a seconds thought to the origins of the dishes, they just love the taste.
Keep your eye out for a window cleaning van with very loud classical or ska music blaring out. I keep the windows rolled down all year long. Ganesh is a very lively green and sits on the front grille. Sahf of the rivver, mind. Innit!
Sobia, you say you arent accusing me of racism, you are just pointing out the offence that you feel. fine. but how far does everybody have to go to avoid offending one person. If say 90% of South Asians couldnt care less about who wears saris should the feelings of the other 10% dictate that saris are no-go for anyone other than South Asians? Is there a right not to be offended?
And a thought on the fact that if an indian in the US wears a saari they are thought of as fresh off the boat but a (eg) white girl would be thought of as cool and daring. The reverse applies in india. to wear a sari is dull and normal but to wear jeans and a blouse is exotic and radical. People will always be suprised by things they dont expect!
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 2:00 pm ¶
layla wrote:
I just wanted to add that I have no problems with people appreciating and enjoying Indian food, cinema, music, etc. The problem is when that appreciation borders on appropriation, and exoticization.
With regards to the prom dress issue, please let me state up front that I don’t mean to attack you specifically, but rather I think your example provides a good example of this type issue. Obviously if someone wants to wear Indian clothing, be it a sari, lehenga, salwar kameeze, etc, it’s their choice, and you can technically wear what you’d like. But the issue is about offending others. IWhether you wear a sari, or a salwar, the issue remains the same. It’s not the article of clothing that is offensive but rather why that person chose to wear it. If you were attending an Indian function, or were at an Indian religious institution, I wouldn’t blink an eye at your Indian dress at all. But at a function like prom, whether the regular tradition is to wear a dress/tux, I would question why you wanted to wear an Indian outfit. It appears to me that the sole reason would be that you wanted to do something different, and hence an Indian sari seemed like a good option. And I think that’s where the problem comes in for me. It’s the same idea that Indians are different, that the sari/Indian outfit is different and exotic, that it stands out and deviates from what is seen as “normal.” It just feels like it’s “othering” Indians, and the associated dress and culture.
Obviously each individual can choose to wear what they want. But I hope that explains why it so often feels offensive to others, to see people wearing clothes that are part of culture in seemingly “weird” scenarios. It just feels like we’re being “othered” even more!
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 2:35 pm ¶
Sapna wrote:
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. One of my best (white) friends has been watching a lot of Bollywood videos, and surprised me one day by saying ‘I wish I was Asian!’ (We’re in Britian, where ‘Asian = people from the Indian sub-continent). Trying to be polite about her plans, I eventually told her that she’d just be another white girl looking foolish in a sari. I think she got the point.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 7:24 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:
As a bellydancer, this was a real interesting topic. We use Indian jewelry, wear bindis and use saris for veils, skirts, you name it. Also Bollywood dance and fusion is real big in bellydance right now.
I am African American and have always admired the beauty of saris and have had the jeweled ones custom made and bought several as evening wear. I am somewhat light so I have been told that I resemble Indian women which I take as a compliment. I would not have worn a sari to the prom, but I would wear one to a formal occasion as an adult. I sort of feel like I am appropriating other culture at time, but then I also feel like, why should I not be allowed to wear the beautiful clothes that other women wear?
I wore a lengha during Diwali in DC and wore salwar kameez when I went to Egypt cuz that’s all I had that covered me sufficiently and was comfortable. As an older women, I find other women my age like salwar Kameez, because it hides the not so great parts, is comfortable and looks attractive but not overly youthful. I don’t get any pushback living in DC/MD where I think there is much more interaction between South Asians and Black people. In fact, most Indian women are pleased when I wear their clothing and tell me how good it looks.
I understand Sobia’s feelings, but I think layla explained it best. I am always really careful as to why I wear clothing from other cultures. I caught hell as a new teacher wearing a sari on halloween at my school. Ditto for a kimono which looked real ridiculous on a black woman. BTW, the children were the ones that told me that they found it offensive. I apologised and never did it again. But I am also glad that 11-13 yr olds felt that they could discuss their feelings with me as well. I am glad I have learned from those mistakes.
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 9:31 pm ¶
Erika wrote:
Hoooly shit, I shouldn’t have checked back here. Kudos to Jeff for completely trivializing the feelings of us “hyphenated Americans”; by the way? I was raised in Japan for part of my life and my mom is Japanese. It’s not like I’m completely blind to what the people of the motherland think!
Posted 06 Jul 2009 at 9:58 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ Jeff:
You are demonstrating *perfectly* why appropriation can be so problematic. You want to appropriate the culture but have no interest whatsoever in trying to understand why some (I would guess more than the %10 you pulled out of….) South Asians (or other cultural minorities) would find it offensive. Instead you get angry at us for being so rude, and as someone else said mean spirited, for being offended.
How dare the brown girl be so rude as to be offended and ruin my fun!!
Seriously, if I said anything more I would just end up repeating what I’ve already said. If by this point you don’t get it then you are not actually interested in finding out why people could get offended by your actions. Rather you want us to just stop being offended.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 12:04 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:
My goodness.
The topic of cultural appropriation will never die. I feel like I’ve been reading articles on it since I was born
One thing, however, that has become apparent to me is that a generation gap is becoming apparent.
I was born in the 80s in a city that had a diverse population, but obviously not everyone else born in the 80s in the US was in the same situation.
Those people who were in isolated areas probably got teased and treated badly because of their race/ethnicity, and for them, the white person eating Indian (or whatever) food and getting props for it, hurts.
But, for the kids that were growing up in the 90s and the 2000s, they are able to experience different races a lot easier than the pre-internet boom kids.
There are more kids who can see, say, a bollywood film on YouTube or eat “authentic” Korean food, than a few years ago. And that creates a comfort with that culture, and a feeling that asking where to get “authentic” whatever is a way of showing that you recognize that the watered down American version is different.
(Not to say that there are still people in the states today who are in small communities with few minorities)
I think that we all (?) can agree that someone who spent a month studying a language, a day in a cooking class and a few minutes on wikipedia is not an “expert” on a certain country.
But, I’ve felt quite iffy on “cultural appropriation” for a long time. People on a site like this one can look at things and think “ahh, see, the only reason those people are able to do that is because they have power”.
But, the average person doesn’ t think about colonial dynamics and white power structures…they think, “huh, that shirt looks cool. I’m gonna buy it!”
Here in Japan, something I find interesting is the number of notebooks and stationary that’s sprung up recently with pictures of white kids on them.
I look at it and think, “why would anyone want to buy a planner with some random white kid’s face on it?”.
But, I guess to the Japanese people buying it, it represents the West…a fantasy world where people aren’t burdened by the problems that the average Japanese person has?
There are even the notebooks and t-shirts with old American ads from the 60s, 70s, and 80s…CareBears, Popples and other 80s cartoons are all over the place.
Anyways, back on track…?
A lot of interesting view points have been raised here.
I wish that minorities in that US wouldn’t spend so much time stressing over what white people do or don’t think about them.
White people don’t wake up thinking, “omg, what do blacks/east asians/south asians/mexicans/puerto ricans/etc think about me?”
When it comes to cultural items. Who wins?
Do I give my Japanese co-workers priority when they say that this or that is appropriate for Americans to do, or do I give Japanese-Americans, who have a different train of thought, priority?
Do I need to self-criticize when I attach an o-mamori to my bag? Shy away from the Japanesey bags with cherry blossom patterns because someone in the US might think that I’m appropriating a different culture?
I feel that in racial/national dynamics, no one wins. Everyone is angry.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 1:35 am ¶
pm wrote:
This thread does rather make me think of the “Goodness Gracious Me” parody of “Common People”. Shame its been removed from YouTube, because it seems kind of to the point to me.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 1:54 am ¶
ashlynn wrote:
So I’ve been rereading this thread and I think…well, a few things. For starters I have always been that girl who needs myriad ways to express herself, and much like when I was inclined to wear a suit to my JHS prom, I felt that a sari or lehenga would better serve as an expression of my inside out. I have no interest to take one’s culture and claim it as my own, nor exoticize it any way. I have personally felt like some sort of exotic piece in the eyes of many other people, and would never want to make anyone else feel that way. It comes down to the individual- for example, when a guy I briefly dated made it clear that my being black was 100 percent one of the reasons he approached me, and I was able to clearly see which side of that fine line he stood on, I ended it; when my current guy simply sparked up a conversation with me and made it clear that he was interested in the person…well, that is why we are still seeing each other. So if there is one, like myself, who simply embraces other cultures in a positive and healthy way and another who does not, surely the reaction must be different, otherwise you end up being just as wrong as the person you felt offended by.
Another thing I want to point out is this feeling of otherness that’s been running through people’s responses. I almost find it funny that you guys feel “othered” because honestly I see it the other way around! I find that is the midst of such strong cultures and defining marks, I feel I have nothing to bring to the table. When I am hanging with a friend who is Asian and she brings along her friends, I feel very much like the “other” because what am I? Where are the tangible characteristics that would define me, and make me special? When I am sitting next to a woman rocking a fierce kurta-churidaar on the train, I truly feel less worthy because I have nothing to show for my culture, my tradition. This applies almost everywhere- in relationships, education, etc.
I almost feel as if this whole thread is operating under the omniscience of a White person. Because all in all, that’s where much of the fear and offence is coming from, much of it in a way I can’t explain. But seeing as quite a few of you keep mentioning White people appropriating other cultures, and perceiving that the sharpness of your responses to me seemed to come from the idea that I was more White than anything, that I was coming from some place of societal power where in fact, I hardly am.
Same boat, people- whether you’re fresh off it or been on shore for a long time, same boat.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 2:14 am ¶
Kaonashi wrote:
I’m not touching this topic with a ten-foot pole, lol!
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 3:25 am ¶
Medea wrote:
@ Lxy
Oh, ok–I agree that it’s imperialist. I just wouldn’t called it an occupation, which to me connotes foreign control over the local government, military patrols, etc.
I would love to see all those bases removed.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 3:32 am ¶
kate wrote:
hey azizi, thanks for the comment. :]
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 9:16 am ¶
jeff wrote:
sobia, Im not angry, honest! We just seeing things differently.
I think appropriation is a bit of a strong word. As little mixed girl said, most people just think something looks cool. There isnt much more going on. There is no desire to ”own a piece of another culture”, just to have/wear something you think looks cool or has a special meaning to you. I hope she is right when she says that kids nowadays will be growing up much more used to and accepting of other cultures.
For my part i think saris look great and would be very pleased if they caught on from tokyo to new york as just another thing to wear. Wouldnt that be the ideal situation? Where everybody can choose whatever they like?
Ashlynn,people in foreign (to you) countries dont sit aroud all day feeling cultural. their culture is boring and normal to them. your boring (to you) american life would be outrageously fascinating to them. People are hardwired to notice differences.
Maybe some sort of mass miscegenation programme is required, in one hundred years time everybody will look pretty much alike and everyone can have a shared history, there will be an end to war and we can explore space together in peace
!!!
But im sure our descendants will just find something else to fight over.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 9:51 am ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“When I am sitting next to a woman rocking a fierce kurta-churidaar on the train, I truly feel less worthy because I have nothing to show for my culture, my tradition. This applies almost everywhere- in relationships, education, etc.”
But you do… everyone does (have something to show for their respective cultures & traditions), and while your experience as a POC is somewhat different, I have seen many, many white people who don Asian garb cite their perceived “culturelessness” as a reason for their actions. The flip side of othering is the idea that you (rhetorical “you”, not literal you) are bland, blank, normal, pedestrian, and that everyone else has a real culture.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 10:03 am ¶
Nisha wrote:
I often read Racialicious but have never posted, but I would really like to show my support for what Sobia is saying (I guess I’m one of the offended ‘ten’ percent….)
As somebody who has aways struggled to reconcile my South Asian heritage with the fact that I live in Canada, I find it extremely irritating when white people assume they have a right to wear saris or bindis, appropriate “Om” or pictures of deities for their own ‘cool’, while simultaneously, should I decide to do these same things, calling into question my Canadian-ness and deciding that I’ve refused to assimilate. So thanks to Sobia for fighting that fight.
@ Jeff
Many people have already offered many explanations about what is appropriation and why, so I won’t go there but I do have to say that women wearing saris in North America is not the same as Indian women wearing jeans and blouses. MANY Indian women do this and it is not ‘exotic or radical’. I’m not really sure why you decided it is.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 12:26 pm ¶
Nisha wrote:
And by “women wearing saris in North America” I mean white or non-South Asian women.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 12:29 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
Thank you Nisha. As you know, I feel your pain. I still feel uncomfortable wearing shalwar kameez in public because I know people will be making all sorts of offensive assumptions about me that they would not make if a non-South Asian woman was wearing the same outfit.
The things I’ve seen South Asians do to “hide” those aspects of their identity that non-South Asians have appropriated and are assumed to be cool and progressive for, makes me sad. And they do this because they know that they will be made fun of, insulted, marginalized, etc for those aspects of their identity.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 4:43 pm ¶
RCHOUDH wrote:
I find it really strange when a foreigner thinks he/she is an “expert” about someone else’s culture and bashes people of the appropriated culture with their knowledge. I used to watch anime when I was younger and I know alot of it contains many aspects of Japanese culture within it. Even though I enjoyed learning about a different culture through these shows I would never go up to someone Japanese/Japanese American and start trying to speak to them with whatever little Japanese I learned from anime or going on about how much I admire their culture and wish it was my own blah blah blah. I mean I would never think to treat them like exotic beings whose cultures define them to me more than their individuality. If the topic of culture ever came up in general I wouldn’t mind sharing aspects of my culture with them and asking them about the aspects of their culture I learned from anime (knowing that cultures may be misrepresented/distorted within fiction). That’s how I normally approach anyone of a different background that I have a chance to befriend.
Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 7:41 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:
Sobia, layla and Nisha,
Mad props to you and the folks lurking for your patience in handling this thread.
I’m Nigerian and I’m pretty much in line with what all three of you said (and what Azizi said).
Jeff said,
Aaaaand Bingo, you win!!!! But only because you used miscegenation with such originality. I mean everyone knows fucking our way to utopia has been proven so successful in dismantling racism over the past oh 400 years.
Posted 08 Jul 2009 at 12:24 am ¶
Nisha wrote:
Thanks Sobia and Sewere.
It’s sad and strange that all the multi-cultiness has made it easier for people who are not part of a particular culture to participate in that culture (or what it’s seen to be) but that it has not erased the stigma of being POC and identifying with your heritage or culture openly. I guess the ‘cool’ factor gets lost somewhere… It is sad indeed.
Posted 08 Jul 2009 at 11:37 am ¶
Courtney wrote:
This reminds me of the infinite contention surrounding the use of “THE N WORD”: Who has the “right” to use it, what are the “appropriate” uses of this word, etc. The never-ending argument around this word should be a heads-up on the nature of the general issue of cultural appropriation– It may never be resolved in a way that is satisfactory to everyone, and is usually confined to action from an appropriator and reaction by those people whose culture has been appropriated.
When someone asks, “Why can’t I use this word?” it ruffles me a little bit. Of course there are laws against certain types of discrimination, but there are many cases which are not ever going to make it to court. E.g., a non-black rapper saying the word, or someone saying it in a bar. In certain situations, no one is policing your behavior– you’re free to do, say, or appropriate whatever you’d like. On the other hand, I’m perfectly free to be offended at whatever use of the word I deem offensive (even if the person using it doesn’t understand why what they did would be hurtful). The person who says this word is going to have to take responsibility for what they say, if I’m around to hear it.
Of course, I may deem its use inoffensive in a particular situation, but I have to take responsibility and speak up for myself when something’s hurting me. Cultures will always be evolving, and the negotiations of these limits are just a part of that.
It’s true that in certain situations, there are systems working to muffle voices of dissent. For example, symbols used by a group of Native American people could be appropriated and used as a logo for a product. That is an issue that could be handled with law, but the judicial branch of the U.S. government is not of the Natives– it is largely a white creation. White people are more likely to be able to use the courts in order to gain intellectual property rights. This is where the Native group would have to find their voice and fight the things they find offensive, or fight for monetary compensation for the appropriation. Hopefully something would change for them.
We can’t just expect people to know/respect our complex, idiosyncratic rules of appropriation, or to do the right thing autonomously; it takes a conversation, after the offense occurs. I think it may be unproductive to say something like, “it is wrong for *you* to use *this*” out of context.
Posted 08 Jul 2009 at 6:28 pm ¶
layla wrote:
Thanks Sewere!
With regards to Nisha’s comment about a South Asian, or any other ethnic group, wearing their traditional clothes, I definitely have to say that whenever I wear Indian clothes here in North America, I get stared at intensly! I can feel people trying to figure me out. Listening to my voice, and puzzled over my obviously North American accent.
People who just observe me automatically assume I’m not from North America, and are visibly taken aback when they figure out that I am.
That is something that non-South Asians wearing saris and such will never have to face. For them it’s just cool and “different.” I would hope that one could see the injustice in that. That I can’t wear my own culture’s clothing without feeling like I will be scrutinized, while another person can wear it without fear of such scrutiny. But further than that, that other people wearing these clothes, only makes it, and by extension me, the person wearing those clothes, different and “weird.”
Posted 08 Jul 2009 at 7:22 pm ¶
chicagorose wrote:
Between jeff, pm and ashlynn (despite revealing she’s African American), I think my keyboard just turned red from meeting my forehead too many times.
Posted 10 Jul 2009 at 11:35 pm ¶
pm wrote:
@chicagorose
What in my comments do you object to? If its the first, bear in mind the whole world is not the US. Not that I have any particular interest in Japanese culture, but if a British person gets really into some aspect of Japanese culture, or vise-versa, surely that’s between the UK and Japan – I don’t see that either has any obligation to check if its OK with Americans.
Posted 11 Jul 2009 at 6:22 pm ¶
Rena wrote:
I think it’s interesting to see where the lines between appreciation and appropriation are. As a kid growing up in a very diverse area, I never found it weird if white people wore outfits from other cultures, like a sari or kente. I would still hesitate to see this as appropriation, too… After all, american dress has caught on in plenty of foreign countries. It seems that we all absorb bits and pieces of other cultures if we live near them, and while there’ve been some good points about how someone who’s white is ‘cool’ for wearing a sari while others would be seen as foreign, I think the exchange of culture is a good start. Yes, right now the ‘cool factor’ hasn’t spread to acceptance of the people whom Saris actually came from… But I do think things will get there. It’d be one thing if Caucasian people were walking around pretending they’d invented saris. But just wearing them? I see nothing wrong with that. Sharing cultures is a good thing, and done with (usually) good intentions. If I see something interesting in a shop window, I’m not going to stop and think about the ethnic implications of my choice to wear it. And I wouldn’t automatically assume that anyone I saw wearing it was a foreigner, no matter what ethnicity they were.
Trying to set rules on who can wear what cultural item seems like a big step backward to me. It’d be better to socialize people in multicultural communities so that no one who wears a sari, or anything else, is looked at as a ‘foreigner’.
Posted 12 Jul 2009 at 1:49 am ¶
Wendi Muse wrote:
i know there has been a lot of emphasis here on the fob factor, but i remember that when growing up in memphis, whenever i, my friends, or anyone in my family saw a woman in a sari, we never thought “perpetual foreigner” or “new immigrant,” we thought “wow, her outfit is awesome.” so i obviously cannot speak for everyone, but i don’t think that all people are making the same assumptions about people in saris or other traditional clothing from their native country or culture. i think there is a lot more room for appreciation than you might imagine. i think the biggest pressures abou fob vs. non-fob come from within the culture itself.
Posted 12 Jul 2009 at 4:04 pm ¶
1.5 genner wrote:
I’m a little late to the discussion, but:
When westerners think of “Indian Culture”, they usually think of Punjabi/Gujarati Hindu culture, and ignore all other Indian ethnicities. This is because the culture of the other ethnic groups is never portrayed in the west.
So, when a white person says “I respect Indian culture.” I know that the culture they are thinking of is not mine, it is only what they think “Indian culture” is. It is what western media has portrayed Indian culture as.
This is why I find appropriation offensive: because westerners don’t understand the true depth of Indian culture, and they only adopt the superficial aspects that they think are “quirky” and “exotic”.
Even westerners who claim to respect Indian culture don’t usually know what they’re talking about (because they learn about india through pop culture).
To Illustrate this point, conversations I’ve had with white friends:
WHITE FRIEND: I was just watching “Monsoon Wedding”. Do Indian brides really wear red lehengas?
ME: some do.
WF: Will you?
ME: No, I’ll wear a white sari.
WF: Why? I thought you were Hindu.
ME: I am, and my ethinc group wears white saris.
WF: But Indians are all one ethnic group!
=============================
ME: Hey, WF2. This is Muhammad. He just flew in from Madras.
WF2: “Namaste”, Muhammad.
ME: Um…dude, he’s Muslim.
WF: So?
====================
WF3: Hey, can you recommend a good Bollywood Movie?
Me: I don’t watch Bollywood, I’m not Hindi. There are other languages, you know.
WF3: So you speak Punjabi?
Me: No, I’m not North Indian: I speak Telugu.
Wf3: That’s really obscure.
Me: No, it’s not. 80 million people speak it. It’s even more common than Punjabi.
Wf3: [rolls eyes] Sure…Whatever.
=========================
Before India was fashionable, nobody really knew what it was. Now, everyone has the wrong idea of it and they think themselves progressive for “respecting Indian culture”.
Posted 25 Jul 2009 at 4:27 pm ¶
insomniac wrote:
I found the linked article interesting, but just wanted to add a couple of thoughts about Bollywood itself and cultural appropriation. Amongst some South Asian diaspora communities, obviously bollywood films have a huge importance, as a link to language and culture as well as the surface appeal of fashion, music and stars etc. So there can be a degree of protectiveness over them as vessels and promoters of Indian culture.
However, Bollywood itself is a huge commercial enterprise, above all out to make a profit. Bollywood itself has a difficult side to negotiate as a thinking person. Films are often maintaining & spreading specific ideals of body image (skin colour and increasingly weight), North Indian and Hindu culture, urban culture, consumerism, commercialism, nationalism (anti-Pakistan etc). How many songs have you seen with urban guy and gal cavorting in the countryside with “local” “village” people reduced to silent, colourful set-dressing? Does Bollywood give a voice to anyone except urban elites? There’s a difficulty that “Bollywood” comes to represent “India”, and it’s not just white people that can confuse the two. A Muslim friend of mine visited in-laws in Delhi recently and all her Muslim sister-in-law are keeping Karva Chauth (a Hindu fast) for their husbands, because they have seen it in Bollywood movies and think it’s trendy. I’d say that Indian “parallel cinema” or “art cinema” can do more to convey the diversity of culture in India.
Another issue with Bollywood is its conflicted relationship with classical arts of India. In the UK, for every two girls enroled in a Kathak class, there are twenty enroled in bollywood dance class. Forget the fact that “Bollywood” as a dance style doesn’t mean much – as the songs and choreography can be absolutely anything (there is no core technique or discipline). Of those two girls enroled in Kathak class, one of them will have joined because she saw Aishwarya dancing a mujra and thought it was Kathak. Bollywood picks and mixes from classical styles such as Kathak, Odissi etc, presenting a dumbed-down, sanitised and over-hyped version that serves to distract interest from the real thing. This is a real issue, ask any serious classical dancer.
All this rambling is to say, I think a white person adopting an interest in Bollywood movies is a different beast to a white person using a Ganpati murti as a paperweight or getting an OM tattoo. One is a commercial, hard-nosed business that is quite happy to take their ticket money and may not care what aspect of Indian culture it packages into a glittery box for mass consumption. The other two are religious artefacts that should be respected…
For me, it is too late at night to weigh in on the clothing discussion yet.
Posted 04 Aug 2009 at 9:17 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
1.5 genner and insomniac make some really good points. It seems all Indian culture to non-South Asians is Bollywood.
@ Wendi Muse:
“i think the biggest pressures abou fob vs. non-fob come from within the culture itself.”
But who has decided what is defined as fob behaviour and non-fob behaviour? At a recent talk I attended scholar Yasmin Jawani made an interesting point about that, stating that it is not immigrants who have decided what fob vs non-fob-ness is. Rather the dominant culture has defined for us what these categories mean. And we have then taken them on.
I haven’t thought it all out myself but I thought it was interesting food for thought.
Posted 04 Aug 2009 at 10:35 pm ¶
Jacinta wrote:
Oh wow. Before I start… typing my piece, let me first say that I’m not trying to offend anyone. I am not always right but the point of these types of boards is to post your opinion.
First of all, I’m Asian American and proud of it. My mother was born in Vietnam and was adopted into the US during the Vietnam War. My father is a hodgepodge of many things but they’re mostly of “White” ethnicity. I grew up neither in a predominantly Asian neighborhood nor a particularly diverse neighborhood. I was not as discriminated against as I know some people were. That doesn’t mean that I wasn’t though. Because I’m not fully of Asian decent or fully white, many people mistook me for other ethnicities. The one question I was always asked when I was younger was “Are you Chinese? Then are you Japanese?” Answering no to their questions would always be followed by “Well, then what ARE you?” As if those two are the only Asian countries worth mentioning. I have nothing against either but it would slightly irritate me, the ignorance that some people displayed. It makes me happy that people today are a little more conscientious and ask “Of what ethnicity are you?” I’m always happy to answer. Even if they may originally think I’m “right off the boat,” I’m not offended because most people are only curious and to me, curiosity about others can only lead to understanding.
About the whole appropriation and appreciation thing, for some people, it’s the same thing. That doesn’t mean everybody feels the same. I think that everyone should always be curious/interested in/appreciate others’ cultures. Speaking for myself, I’ve always been interested in other cultures. I am by no means an expert, but I have a deep seated thirst for the knowledge of other cultures. I am in college to become a teacher, what’s unique about what I want to do though, is that I want to teach abroad. I don’t want to so that I can teach American ways to other people but so that I can learn about them and their ways. I’m studying abroad as much as I can and have been out of the country a few times, one place that I do want to go is India. I’ve always had a fascination for South Asian and Middle Eastern cultures. I am not oblivious to their trials and I don’t want to materialize something sacred to them. I will not say that “I respect Indian Culture” because as 1.5 genner said, there are many different types of peoples. I can’t however say that I DON’T respect it. I respect that it’s different from mine and that I don’t understand. However, I hope to someday get a taste of it.
I think saris are beautiful but I would never wear it for casual dress. I do not think that they should be reserved for South Asians only though. I do not really promote “American” culture as almost everything (Note I said almost to any of you who would take offense to this) that is a part of “American” culture is really something that was taken from other cultures and adapted to fit our norms and values. I’m not saying that we should trivialize other people’s cultures, but learn to appreciate them in the right way. If you want to wear a sari, wear one. But try to learn the significance of the garment before you wear it. Because I’m half Asian, I get mistaken for other ethnicities. I’m not saying that I look Indian, but if I wore a sari, I might get mistaken for one at first glance. People may stare, but I say let them! Some people may look down and think you’re fresh off the boat, but others may only be curious and admire your beautiful clothing. Speaking for myself, if I saw someone in a sari, my first reaction wouldn’t be a negative one, I admire them for wanting to show off their heritage. It may just be the way I was raised but I am proud of being “exotic.” It means that I’m different and more beautiful because of it. My father’s side of the family is entirely blond and blue-eyed. When people see us, they don’t think that I’m related at all. But to me, I don’t feel like I’m an outsider, I am proud that my mother isn’t American and that I am unique. There have been instances where I have been poked fun of, but I let it roll off my back because, why should I care what they think? They are ignorant and they can wallow in their own mistaken sense of superiority.
If I wore a Sari, it would not be because it’s a fad. I may not know everything there is to know but I’m trying. I’m not Indian but I’m part of the Indian Student Association and I’m taking part of Diwali, which explores ALL types of Indian dance, not just the Bollywood “style.” I’m also taking a Bhangra class because I feel we should respect other cultures, not trample on them.
It’s hard to really type down my feelings about the subject since it’s so complex but you have to realize that just because someone wears a sari or takes yoga, doesn’t mean that they mean any disrespect.
Posted 18 Sep 2009 at 2:17 am ¶