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"They were arrested in the wake of vandalism and attacks on the homes of more than 100 Romanian migrants."
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"On Saturday, "Neda", a young Iranian woman watching the protests in Tehran, was allegedly shot by a Basij, dying in her father's arms. It was captured on video. Some say she may be the new face of the opposition movement."
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""What is it about me that doesn't qualify?" he demanded, and then he went home to tell his wife that again there would be no loan to plant crops. They argued about the farm and their debts. Boyd told her he refused to let the farm go. The small towns around South Hill are as far back as Boyd can trace his family line. His father was raised on a farm with 12 brothers and sisters. His grandfather Thomas was a farmer. His great-grandfather was born a slave on the Boyd plantation, just outside of South Hill. "
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"What's most exciting is the aggregate effect of all this speech and what it reveals about the zeitgeist of the moment, but it still reflects a worldwide user population that skews wealthy, English-speaking and well-educated. The same is true of the blogosphere and social networks such as Facebook. "
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Yonah wrote:
I come from Northern Ireland. Although racism is rampant there, reportage on it has really taken a back seat to sectarian violence… maybe this will cause people to pay more attention.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 12:56 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
I am glad you brought up the racist attacks in the north of Ireland. Many of these attacks are associated with organised racist groups based out of the UK, namely C-18 and the BNP.
For years they have had ties with Loyalist death-squads and Loyalist paramilitaries.
The Unionist cause in Ireland has become a “cause celebre” for the far racist right in Europe and the USA. One only needs to think about the most infamous skinhead/racist rock band “Skrewdriver” and their song “Smash the IRA” and then link it to their openly racist songs against blacks, Jews, South Asians and the like.
It would seem these Loyalists, no longer able to kill the “taigs” (Catholics) at will, are now setting their sights against anyone else they dont like. Hopefully this gets the attention it deserves.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 2:18 pm ¶
Yonah wrote:
Abu Sinan, it’s not just the Protestant paramilitaries, but the Catholic ones, too. With the conflict toned down many of them on both sides just turned to general thugging and drug-running. Even when the conflict was at its most intense, many were doing this anyway.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 3:44 pm ¶
Yonah wrote:
I also want to point out that the Nationalist sentiment of Ireland for the Irish often, of course, left immigrants and people of colour way out, as nationalist movements in general tend to do. The racist things my father used to hear… like racial slurs for black people, because he had curly black hair.
What you say about the fringe Loyalist affiliation with white supremacy is definitely true, mind. It’s pretty horrifying.
A plague on both extremist houses.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 3:52 pm ¶
Leezel wrote:
I am confused as to how the Romanian attacks were racist vs being anti-immigrant (in this case Romanian). Racially, arent both victim & perp. caucasian? This is not to say that there arent racist attacks on immigrants but I just dont see it here.
My understanding of race & ethnicity isnt top notch tho, so if someone would care to enlighten me…
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 4:39 pm ¶
RainaWeather wrote:
Romanians may be considered white to us but that does not mean they are viewed as such in Ireland. Every country has its own slightly different way of determining “race”
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶
RCHOUDH wrote:
@ Leezel
My understanding is that the attacks were against Romanian Gypsies. Gypsies are also known as Roma and they are descendants of nomadic tribes who hailed from Northern India. Nowadays most Roma people throughout Europe and the Middle East are mixed so that they resemble the majority populations they reside alongside. However they also have retained a distinct culture that has always made them out to be seen as being different from the rest of the Europeans. Their experience as a minority community is similar to that of the Jews I believe. Both groups were always viewed with suspicion and were labelled as being outsiders by various European countries throughout history.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 6:42 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:
I once had a discussion with someone from Germany who used “racist” to describe antisemitic crimes. Also with someone from France who couldn’t figure out why Americans made such a big deal about Mexican immigrants, because, unlike the Arabs coming to France, Mexicans are white. These terms are all kind of vaguely defined to begin with, and just get more confusing once you start looking at how they’re used in other countries.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 7:03 pm ¶
Misspelled wrote:
I think it’s pretty common in Europe to use “racist” to describe national bigotry as well as actual race-based bigotry. In America we tend to think of national stereotyping as more or less a joke — white people are pretty much white people these days and your Irish or Italian or Polish or WASP background is probably two or three or more generations old and manifests itself only on St. Patrick’s Day or when The Godfather is on AMC or what have you. But many of those national and regional animosities are still a big deal for the countries in which they originated, and nationality is as much an identifying factor as race, if not more.
And in the U.K., Eastern Europeans are stereotyped in a very similar way to how Mexicans and other Latin Americans are in the U.S. — as a plague of immigrants coming in to steal menial jobs from citizens, not bothering to learn the language and necessitating foreign-language signs in businesses, etc. “Polish builder” jokes are ubiquitous in British comedy, like “Mexican illegals hanging out in front of Home Depot” jokes are over here.
I didn’t see any indication in the article that the Romanians targeted were Roma (although that’s a whole other kettle of racial fish), but to a certain U.K. mentality, being white Romanians is plenty bad enough.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 9:12 pm ¶
m. wrote:
I am confused over the first link. One of the tags is saying differently from the article itself (’roma’ vs. ‘Romanian’). Were the victims Romanian, Roma or Romani? The latter two ethnic groups are the ones classified as “Gypsies”, Europe/the UK has quite the track record as far as discrimination against smaller ethnic groups, the victims must have been read as “not quite white” in some way or another to have been targeted, and the article refers to them as “Romanian migrants” (rather than just ‘Romanian immigrants’)…yet the rest of the article would lead one to believe they are just Romanian, from Romania?
I’m just wondering, because as far as I’ve heard there is a lot of discrimination in Europe against Roma lately. I read an article (last year, I believe) about Roma being fingerprinted in Italy. Can anybody clarify?
@Leezel + RainaWeather:
Romanians are both Caucasian and white and, as far as I know, considered such in Europe/the UK. However, Roma/Romani are not considered ‘white’ in Europe or the UK (though they are Caucasian). I’m really confused, myself.
Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 11:31 pm ¶
Minotaar wrote:
I wish the media would stop showing the Neda death tape without heavy duty censorship. Its so fucking insensitive to a real person. If Neda was a blonde white chick they wouldnt even play the sound reel, let alone show the eyes rolled back and the blood pouring out of her nose and mouth. Just fucking despicable.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 5:06 am ¶
RCHOUDH wrote:
@ Minotaar
I agree with you 100%. What’s even worse is them using her death for their own selfish purposes. They show her death like that yet they’re too timid to even show caskets of all the dead Western soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan or even images of injured/dead civilians in those countries. It’s because they want to hype up Iran’s atrocities but keep their own atrocities under wraps lest their population’s support for their illegal wars plummets even further.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 7:49 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Yonah,
It is clear at this point that you “dig with the other foot”.
There is a clear difference here. Whereas there are certainly Catholics in the north of Ireland there has NEVER been an organised connection between any Catholic/Republican group and organised racist groups.
As a matter of fact, Sinn Fein and IRA have long had ties with PoC organisations. Ard Fheis since the 70’s have seen participation by Middle East, Africa and Central and South American organisations and movements.
I find it a bit odd about you talking about your father getting racist comments about curly black hair. Curly black hair is a rather common Irish trait, so unless he had dark skin it really wouldnt make sense.
You are right when you mention that all sides engaged in rather dodgy stuff during and after the conflict, but in this case we are talking about direct links to organised far right racist organisations and the fact is that it is ONLY the loyalists that have these ties.
Their hatred for non whites and Catholics is so extreme that because of the well known Catholic/Republican support of Palestinians loyalists have taken to supporting the Israelis and their actions against Palestinians.
You can see Israeli flags flying in places like the Shankill, whereas you see Palestinian flags on the Falls, Andytown and Republican areas of Derry.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 8:30 am ¶
Yonah wrote:
I don’t dig with the other foot. I’m a Jew. I do, however, have some family on both sides, mostly on the Catholic one. A very Catholic aunt of mine had her car blown up by the IRA because when they came to her house asking for money for petrol bombs she declined. My dad spent a lot of his life getting beatings from the British army, the whole family including me was freaked out and harrassed by an army helicopter which kept buzzing us, but on the other hand, the reason why we eventually left the country was because he was stalked by the IRA.
In fact I lean nationalist, not loyalist, but I find in North America people have these shockingly romanticised notions about the conflict. And they refuse to listen. No, you COULDN’T have experienced racism, because that’s a common Irish trait as I understand it. No, it WASN’T real, because I’m going to define “real” as “organised in this particular way.” I read this about the IRA, they couldn’t possibly have done THAT.
You’re right in that people in the Troubles believe their conflict maps onto the conflict in the Middle East. It is mostly projection rather than considered solidarity – appropriation of symbols and tropes rather than markers of allegiance. Loyalists may sometimes paint a magen David in their murals but they’re not exactly good friends with Jews.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 9:29 am ¶
Minotaar wrote:
@RCHOUDH: American caskets were illegal for the american media to film because of retarded rules made by the elder bush administration. It has since been overturned by the Obama administration. There was significant contention about these rules in the media. Most americans support the Moussavi (sorry did I spell it wrong?) side of the Iranian election, rightly or wrongly. Personally, its unclear to me if Moussavi would be such a great replacement for Ahmedinejad, though someone with a more measured voice would always be an improvement. Will his policies really be better for human rights and regional peace? He’s still pro-nuclear so nix the latter. And I’ve heard nothing on the former, but he was one of the original islamic revolution guys, so … I dunno I’ll wait. Hoping for the best in Iran here.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 12:37 pm ¶
Minotaar wrote:
If Moussavi’s ascension to power means a change to a more democratic Iran that would be wonderful, too.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 12:38 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Yonah,
I have lived in Ireland, specifically Belfast and Armagh, so I am well aware of how things go there and have been there long enough and enough times to not fall for the pseudo Irish American/plastic Paddy romantic view of Ireland. More to the point, I am not Irish at all and am part Jewish myself.
I would certainly dispute your idea that Republicans do not feel a genuine solidarity with Palestinians. Palestinians have participated in almost every Ard Fheis since the early 70s, not to mention that the IRA has trained with several Palestinian groups around the world.
Of course Loyalists arent good friends with Jews, and I think you are spot on with saying that in their case it is a projection. Loyalism has always been connected with the far right, and hence racism, since the latest bout of the troubles. Republicans, on the other hand, have always been friendly with Palestinians and the Palestinian movement, in both a political and military way.
This fact seems to me to be the one thing that always boths Irish American supporters of Sinn Fein and the IRA, especially post 9/11. Israeli sources even suspect that IRA members have had their hands in several high profile attacks on the IDF, even though it cannot be proven.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 3:30 pm ¶
Yonah wrote:
Abu, thanks for the clarification. So let’s not minimise racism on one side because it doesn’t have ties to outside fringe groups or because it conflicts with political loyalties.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 4:10 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:
@ Minotaar #11:
Co-sign!
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Yonah,
I am not minimising anything, but anyone will admit there is a clear difference between an indivdual making a racist statement and a community based organisation having long standing ties to violent racist groups and bring that violence into their own community.
No such thing exists in the Catholic/Nationalists/Republican community despite issues with race within that community.
Loyalism is an ideology which is founded on hatred of “the other” so it is no surprise that it’s adherents would latch unto the ideology of the BNP and C-18.
For those who dont know C-18 is a hard-core group of racists, skinheads and football hooligans. Their name is “Combat 18″. The “18″ portion of the name matching the first and either letter of the alphabet, in this case indicating a loyaty to to Adolph Hitler (18).
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 8:15 pm ¶
Safiya Outlines wrote:
Abu Sinan – While there may indeed be many old school republicans/ nationalists with strong concepts of international solidarity.
It doesn’t change the fact that Northern Ireland is a deeply parochial and insular society, with a widespread distrust of outsiders.
Having lived there and witnessed the racial abuse being dished out to my friends from Catholics and Protestants, I can’t say I’d fancy walking down either the Shankhill or the Falls wearing a hijab.
P.S Check your comments on your blog, I’ve posted a v interesting link.
Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 9:31 pm ¶
Yonah wrote:
Safiya – yep, that’s it.
Abu, “I’m not minimizing, but it’s not that bad compared to X” is minimizing. Seriously now, quit it.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 7:21 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Yonah,
If you seriously think that an individual act of personal racism is the same as an community organisation getting involved with hard core racist skinheads then I guess you have a real nack for relativism.
@Safiya,
You and I have gone rounds on this this. I have been down the Falls with a woman (women actually) in hijab and gotten nare an issue. Partially in a black taxi, partially on foot from Clonard, down to Andytown. We spent the better part of an entire day all over Republican West Belfast without issue.
I have done this several times, never with an issue.
Have you been down the Falls in a hijab? Without first hand experience I guess it is easy to make guesses. I am not saying there might not be issues, but that is true of anywhere.
I guess everyone’s experiences are different. I really seem to find the fact that there is an organised violent racist movement entrenched in the loyalist population in the north of Ireland much more bothersome than personal acts of racism.
I would also strongly argue with the idea that there are “old school republicans/ nationalists with strong concepts of international solidarity.”
You are COMPLETELY wrong here. The old school Republicans, and by that I mean pre 1970s, were the ones MOST likely not to have international connections.
These Republicans are often known as “Rosary bead Republicans” and were much more insular than the brand of Republicans that came of age in the time of international struggle. Even then more than a few “Rosary bead Republicans” went and fought and died to fight against facism in Spain in the 1930s.
The connections with Palestinian, Central and South America, including Africa, go all the way back to the 1970s.
The current generation of Republicans, from 1970 to present, are completely international in their outlook. Any quick look at the murals in Republican areas will show that, any reading of Republican media will show that.
Sinn Fein and other Republiucan leadership have been in the forefront for decades now. It was Adams who went after America after our 9/11 response and risked allienating his American supporters. Adams and Sinn Fein have consistantly supported the Palestinians and other international issues.
Heck……..the IRA has been accused of supporting, both with arms and fighters/traininers all sorts of international progressive movements, from FARC in Columbia to the Palestinian resistance in Palestine.
It would be hard to find more international organisations than the Republican organisations in the north of Ireland.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 9:20 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Safiya,
I saw your link. It is good news that the loyalists are finally starting to get rid of all of those murals that worship death and violence. Last time I was in Belfast I took a nice drive down the Shankill and got dozens of pictures of them.
It is interesting to note the difference between Republican murals and Loyalist murals. I guess you wont be surprised to hear that I like the murals of nice young girls Irish dancing over two story high murals of loyalist skulls and zombies.
I must admit that the artistry of the zombies in loyalist murals is often better than their Republican counterparts. The artists could get jobs doing album covers for death metal bands.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 9:23 am ¶
Yonah wrote:
I guess when you really don’t want to see racism and bigotry, you won’t, no matter how people explain their experiences to the contrary.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 10:44 am ¶
Safiya Outlines wrote:
Abu Sinan – By old school, I don’t mean Official IRA aka, the Sticks, I meant the 1970’s era and onwards Provos. The Sticks haven’t really been relevant for a long time.
Still, I think you are romanticising the Provos somewhat. Despite the high ideals of some, there were plenty who were sectarian thugs. Did the torture and murder of Jean McConville bring a worker’s state any closer? There is also the gangsterism and the relish in which members liked to enforce their authority within their community. Again, did those who murdered Robert McCartney do so for the cause of international solidarity
Plus, the Provos were not the entire armed republican movement. The INLA and others were notoriously bloodthirsty.
Both sets of paramilitaries carried out disgusting and cowardly acts. The Republican side just happened to be more articulate and politically aware.
Finally, neither the republican nor loyalist movements can claim to speak for all Catholics and Protestants, so to claim that because Provos are internationalists doesn’t not mean that Catholics cannot be actively racist.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 10:44 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Yonah,
I dont know what you are on about. Where did I ever say I didnt see racism and bigotry? I simply pointed out that you cannot compare racist comments by an individual to an organised campaign of violence, like with a community organisation with ties to far right extremists.
Don’t make things up to try and get your point across, it doesnt work. Sure there is individual racism in ALL commnities in Ireland, I find the organised campaign of racisism that drove the Romanains out of Ireland to be a bit more worrisome than ignorant comments. It is about proportion and I would put forward that throwing molotov cocktails trumps almost everything else short of murder.
@Safiya,
The stickies themselves have/had international ties, so much of what I said about the “PIRA” would apply as well. Your statement only holds try when you are talking about Republican organisations pre 1970 and this “round” of the troubles.
Trying to label them as “parochial and insular” wont fly.
As to McConville, I dont think you’ll find that this one act is enough to label the entire Republican or Nationalist movement. It would be like trying to make a point about Loyalists or Unionists by pointing to the Shakill Butchers. You wont get anywhere using this type of argument because for everything you can pull out about Republicanism I can pull out two for the Loyalists. It is a naff argument and one that shouldnt be made.
I am hardly romantic about “the Provos”. I know there were sectarian thugs on both sides. I have met some of the Republican sectarian thugs and I enjoyed that about as much as I would enjoy meeting Sarah Palin. I have also met and known Loyalist sectarian thugs. As a matter of fact I was actually knew and was “friendly” with a guy who started up and ran one of the best know Loyalist websites on the net that was tied in with the UDA and the LVF. It doesnt get anymore sectarian than that.
Conflicts of the type always end up attracting all sorts of idiots at the lower levels, and in the case of Billy Wright, idiots at the highest levels. But one must seperate these people from the ideology of the movement. Since all undeground movements attract these types, you must out of neccessity kind of exit them out of the equation. If not then you can just as easily use bin Laden to make a point about Islam.
I never claimed the Provos were the entire Republican movement, I dont know where you got that from? Certainly not me. The Stickies and the INLA, as well as other groups, were often MORE international in their outlook because they stuck more to the Socialist ideas of the time. Were they bloody? Yep. No doubt and I’d never argue any different. It still doesnt do anything to detract from the fact that the majority of these groups were international in scope and in outlook. Like the PIRA, the INLA trained internationally with international resistance movements.
It is interesting to note that even the American Indian Movement (AIM) had loose ties with Sinn Fein and the Republican movement in Ireland. I once talked to Russell Means, a long time leader of the American Indian movement and co founder of AIM, and he said that they often looked to the IRA and Sinn Fein for their own struggle and tactics. As a matter of fact, they even looked at Bobby Sands and the hungerstrikers and even considered hungerstrikes themselves as a tool in their own fight for freedom.
The Republican side just didnt happen to be “more articulate and aware”. It is because the movement, as a whole, attracted more educated and decent people, both at home and abroad, due to it’s goals and ideas. Whereas Loyalism and Unionism was completely about the exclusion of an entire segment of a population, Republicanism, at it’s heart, was a movement of inclusion and freedom. It flowed from the European movements in the late 1700s and mid 1800s that fought for freedom. As such it naturally attracted people in Ireland that wanted to link up with others in the international scene, whether it was the ANC and Nelson Mandela LONG before it was trendy to do so, or various Palestinian and Middle Eastern groups and groups all over Northern and Sub Saharan Africa.
Who did the loyalist/unionist community hook up with? Yeah……..the BNP, C-18, ARM (Afrikaaner Resistance Movement-a pro apartheid group in SA) and other groups like them. So it didnt “happen” to end up this way, it is about the fundamental ideas of unionism/loyalism and republicanism and nationalism. Point to thugs all you want, all groups have them, but it doesnt remove the underlying ideals that set these groups into motion.
Like Yonah, you make a straw man argument, trying to say that I somehow think that Catholics in Ireland cannot be racist. Having spent a lot of time in Ireland I can tell you I have heard very vile stuff about immigrants, non whites, even travelers amoungst Catholics. I wont, and havent, denied that. But that isnt what we were talking about here. What IS being talked about is active links between established organisations in the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist communities and violent racist groups with a history of violence and racism in the UK and Europe.
Unless you can bring me proof of active and deep links between organisations in the Catholic/Republican/Nationalist communities in Ireland and violent racist groups I’ll consider the case to be shut. We all agree that Protestants and Catholics can and are racist. What you cannot do is provide a link between Republican organisations and organised violent racist groups.
I feel sorry for any Catholic Republican who tried to join C-18…………they’d get the same treatment that the Romanians did. Catholic Irish to these people are no different than any other “wog”. They even have their own word for them: “taig”. You know, as in “Any Taig Will Due” on their murals when it comes to talking about killing?
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 12:32 pm ¶
Yonah wrote:
“Don’t make things up to try and get your point across, it doesnt work.”
Latoya, some help here??
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 3:38 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
Knew there was something I forgot to do this morning.
Abu, drop it. For heaven’s sake folks, at some point agree to disagree.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 3:43 pm ¶
Yonah wrote:
Thanks. And it’s true about agreeing to disagree, especially in internet-land, so I’ll drop it, too.
Posted 24 Jun 2009 at 8:10 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
@Yonah,
“Latoya, some help here??”
ROFLMAO!
@Latoya,
That’s fine. I was planning on saying the same thing if anyone came back with anything this morning.
There is only so much you can beat a dead horse. There is google and people can easily figure out the truth for themselves.
Thanks.
Posted 25 Jun 2009 at 9:40 am ¶