Nostalgia: a Sport for the Privileged

by Special Correspondent Wendi Muse

We all do it. 

We fall in love with the beautifully enchanting portrayal of the past that we  encounter in novels, historical fiction, and on the big screen. We get lost in the  dashing gentry, the voluminous hoop skirts, the lazy Sunday evenings. This fantasy past, however, is quite far from the reality most of us would have encountered in the “good old days.”

In fact, if I were alive during the long lost past, I would probably be an incredibly unhappy camper.

But there was a time when I could not see the forest for the trees. I would sit there with my classmates penning my “If I were to travel in time…” essays for English class or fantasizing about the Baroque period in Humanities class. I would travel to the deepest, darkest Africa with Cecil Rhodes in my History class. Yet as I got older and became more seasoned in the realities of global race relations, the beauty of the past faded. I knew for sure that no matter how beautiful an outfit, hairdo, or even lifestyle may have seemed, my participating in the nostalgic longing to return to the past was, in fact, an art I had picked up from the privileged.

If I were to go back to any time in American or European history, even the 1980s (Reaganomics….) or 1990s (LA Riots, anyone?) at my present age, I would face considerable challenges as a result of my race. As a black person, I would not be provided the same access to a happy life. It would most likely be thwarted by systematic oppression or social alienation. And with the rights I presently possess, I would not be willing to give those up for even a minute of sipping mint juleps in the antebellum South or listening to a live concerto in 19th century France. The reality is that I would not be welcome.

Nor would many of my friends. My Chinese friends would have been entirely banned from the United States (Chinese Exclusion Act). My Japanese friends would have been suspected terrorists (Japanese Internment). And anyone with a drop of black blood…well, get to hoeing, folks!

I suppose that is the magic of history. We can imagine it as we wish. We can simply ignore the facts in their entirety and craft an imaginary, historical fantasy world catered to our specific interests, in complete ignorance of the plight of well, just about everyone except for wealthy, white, male, straight, Christian landowners.

But, for now, I’ll stay right here in the present and imagine a better future to come.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Rad Geek People’s Daily 2009-06-17 – Wednesday Lazy Linking on 17 Jun 2009 at 4:20 pm

    [...] Good Old Days Were Rotten. Wendi Muse, Racialious (2009-06-15): Nostalgia: a Sport for the Privileged. I think the lesson applies just as much to libertarian nostalgia for the Gilded Age or the Old [...]

  2. Let’s Not Do the Timewarp Again « A Mixedjewgirl World on 20 Jun 2009 at 11:11 pm

    [...] by mixedjewgirl on June 21, 2009 Racialicious blogger Wendy Muse muses on the privileged phenomenon of historical nostalgia. Intellectual [...]

Comments

  1. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    YESSSS!!! I suffered from this same disorder at a young age… I was obsessed with “Anne of Green Gables” and wanted to be a redhead, white skinned girl living on Prince Edward Island in the late 19th century. I never really paid much attention to Indian culture/history or that non-white people suffered racism and colonialism.

    Today, well, I do still love “Anne of Green Gables,” but if I was transported back to that place at that time, everybody would have probably shunned me, although maybe sympathetic, strong-willed Anne would have been my friend ;-)

  2. Fiqah wrote:

    Had a loooooooong discussion about nostalgia versus historical reality with a friend while watching an episode of “Dr. Who” where (Black) companion Martha and the Doctor travel back in time to 17th century England. I knew without a doubt that the whole “race” thing would have been glossed over if the show were produced stateside, but it was actually approached (skimmingly) on the show.

    You know I’ve just been waiting to mention “Dr. Who” here, right? :D

  3. B wrote:

    Interesting topic, one that I’ve never thought of before. However, as a Jew, it’s kind of a chilling thought. Obviously, not EVERY location at EVERY time in history was negative for the Jewish people, but man, you’d really have to choose carefully if playing the time travel game.

  4. blip wrote:

    Guilty. I loved reading corny Barbara Cartland novels when I was growing up and never once thought about the atrocities someone who looked like me experienced while the lady of the mansion was getting romanced by her dashing stranger.

  5. Lizzie (greeneyedfem wrote:

    Every time I get dreamy about what it might be like to live in some earlier time, it’s good to remind myself that I like being able to vote. And hold my partner’s hand in public.

    Among many other things.

  6. atlasien wrote:

    The South is a really nostalgic region.

    From what I’ve observed, many African-Americans will follow the nostalgia trail up to certain point… that is, describe nostalgia for a time when families stuck close together, grew their own vegetables, and so on… I’ve heard this cited as a major reason for why so many moved back to the South in the last decade.

    But some native white people here have a well-known tendency to go beyond urban-to-rural nostalgia for “the simple life”… and use the mental equivalent of heavy construction equipment to erect insanely complicated nostalgic myth structures . Take the whole “Gone with the Wind” industry in Atlanta. It’s so freaking ridiculous. Pretending you’re a plantation owner?!? Gah…

    I’m really interested in history but I’ve never spent a lot of time imagining myself back anywhere. Maybe in Imperial Roman times… if you were middle-class or higher back then, you could have a pretty decent life, no matter what your skin color. Unless you got sick, then you got a blood infection and died horribly. And going way off on a tangent, that’s why the ending of Battlestar Galactica frustrated me so much. I can understand giving up FTL drives, but giving up antibiotics? No way, I wouldn’t have gone along with that.

  7. inkst wrote:

    Seriously! Took the thoughts right out of my head!! For a long time I’ve felt cynical about historical nostalgia. Even if you were a white male magically placed in the past, 9 times out of 10 (at least more than a century ago) you probably would have been a poor farmer. Not to mention people of color in a western country.

    On the other side of that though is nostalgia for times when people of color did have power, in particular the flourishing empires in the Americas, Persia, India, and Southeast Asia. I feel cynical about people getting nostalgic for those too. Again, 9.9 times out of 10, you would have just been a farmer or servant. The grass is always greener…

  8. Ruchama wrote:

    Anne of Green Gables! I also loved those books, but I’m completely aware that there’s only one place that someone “like me” is mentioned — when Anne tries to dye her hair black, with dye that she bought from a peddler, and it ends up green, and Marilla tells her something like, “I told you not to let those Italians in the house,” and Anne responds, “He wasn’t Italian, he was a German Jew.” (I did like that Anne was always envious of Diana’s “plump” figure, though.)

  9. bluemorpho wrote:

    @Fiqah – Yes, the Doctor and the show almost entirely skirt around race, but I do find it refreshing that people of color appear in every type of role and time period – (even where it’s probably not historically accurate, ie: Girl in the Fireplace & a somewhat racially mixed court of Versailles). Though not as many or frequently as I like, characters of color are fully integrated into real stories and real roles, instead of as stereotypes or “red shirts.” That said, wtf is up with casting a still younger posh white guy for the 11th doctor? Did we run out of imagination or courage, or both? I was pulling for Paterson Joseph…

    This clip on white privilege and time travel has been referenced on Racialicious & Stuff White People Do before, but it’s still good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dlaugh%2Bawkwardly&feature=player_embedded

  10. Ramona wrote:

    Good lord, I went through this same exact thing in grammer and half of highschool. I realized later just how euro/white american centric my education was. I remember there were a few assignments I had where I had to describe in short essays what my every day life would be during the time of the 13 colonies, so we could show what we learned. (Where the Burmese even around at the that time?)

    And I think there was one back in 3rd grade where I had describe my every day life as a Native American. :) I dont’ remember what I learned, but I have a big feeling it wasn’t anything true.

  11. J wrote:

    i’ve had conversations with my mother about her wanting to be a june cleaver character in the 1950s. i tell her it’d be more likely she’d be cleaning june cleaver’s floor than anything else.

  12. Ramona wrote:

    @ Fiqah:

    *fellow Doctor Who fan here* :D

    I remember that episode! I’m glad they did address it, but I still thought it was a bit weak. Especially when the Doctor’s solution to it was “Just walk around like you own the place, it always works for me.”

    Oh yea, easy for you to say….. XD

  13. Lakergrrl wrote:

    Ditto to all above. I love Jane Austen books, but I wonder what would happen if someone like me really did to go back to that time. Somebody should write a book about that instead of the usual tired Austen rehash chick lit. The only time I remember a black girl (non-servant) being mentioned in literature during that period is “Miss Swartz, the rich woolly-haired mulatto from St. Kitt’s” in Vanity Fair.

  14. gatamala wrote:

    as a period costume freak I have to agree. Whenever someone asks me what other era could I have lived in…I have nooo answer.

  15. jvansteppes wrote:

    All this talk of Anne of Green Gables reminds me of the way so many white Canadians love that kind of nostalgia, perhaps more than Americans do. Canadian television is all about distorted romantic portrayals of times past.
    Would Road to Avonlea have gotten so many viewers anywhere else? Aunt Hetty would like to think so.

  16. Tracey wrote:

    Ughhhh!! Still guilty. I was watching Fingersmith yesterday and couldn’t help but think how cool it would be to live in 19th century England (even though they showed the poorer sections of London). Then remembered: woman, black, queer, poor. Even when looking at works of fiction that address the reality of most people it’s still all to easy to imagine yourself as one of the elites or as a spunky woman who manages to somehow buck social convention and live happily ever-after. Even when looking at non-western/Euro countries the times to travel back to are slim pickings. Yet, I find myself doing it all the time. Even now I think how cool it would have been to fight alongside Nzingha of Angola agaisnt colonizers ( I feel really bad b/c she sticks in mind b/c of the using a human bench story from H.S. history class and romanticizing war is problematic in itself).
    http://nzinghaofangola.tripod.com/

  17. 9jah wrote:

    They were triumphs in despair. We can recognize and wax nostalgic about that. In fact, the racial experience of african-americans over the centuries illustrates one damn good story of triumph.

  18. Tamara wrote:

    Isn’t the fallacy here not so much the idealised fantasy past being inaccesable to anyone but the local elite, as not aknowledging other, non-white, non-western pasts?

    (the idea that the past is all that great for anyone, without modern health care, transport, nutrition, sanitation, etc, except perhaps the extremely elite 1% or so most of our fantasies focus on is a bit off, IMO. But, say we remain within the context of that fantasy-past0

    Why does no one aspire to imagine ones self in, say, the sophisticated international trading cities of medieval east africa? Or multi-ethnic Moor Spain, if you’re looking for a bit of jewish variety.

    Keeping the silly romanticized past to white victorian tea parties seems like a massive failure of the imagination, frankly.

  19. Myles wrote:

    14. gatamala

    Since I’m part Cherokee and I live in Georgia, I’ll sometimes say:

    “Around here, pre-Contact. But, like, LONG before contact happened.”

    It’s really funny to see the looks on people’s (okay, white people’s) faces when they are reminded that they weren’t always in this multi-generational position of life not sucking and that sometimes people have romantic ideas about what it was like to live without the. . . uh, trappings of living with white people.

    But for the most part, I can’t think of another time in the past I would want to live in. Hello, think of all of the medicine we have now. Does anyone really want to go back to a time without indoor plumbing?

  20. CrzyCatDC wrote:

    I also hate the nostalgia people begin to feel for “their” generation’s time. Like people who constantly harp on the 6Os and what life was like then– hippies, “fun” experimenting with drugs, sticking it to the man, blah blah, blah. It wasn’t like that for everyone.

  21. eccentricyoruba wrote:

    i love this post! when i was younger in secondary school in Nigeria i always dreamed of time travel. i wanted to travel to the time of Jane Austen after reading Pride and Prejudice when i was 13. i thought it’d be lovely and i’d have so much fun though now i know things would have been different from what i imagine.

    then i learnt about the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade in history class and i was all of a sudden scared of travelling through time because i thought i’d be captured and sold into slavery. also learning about colonisation and military dictatorship made me further appreciate the present.

    lately i’ve been reading a lot on West African empires of the Middle Ages and the time travel fever has definitely come back. i find myself wanting to visit Timbuktu in the 14th century or Ile-Ife in 1300AD as then all public streets reportedly had pavements (i’m not too sure about the date though).

    i’m thinking of writing a historical fiction set in Africa, that should definitely help with the nostalgia :)

  22. Wendi Muse wrote:

    tamara,
    the reason i mention more of the white past is because that is what pop culture and our western schooling idealizes. even the fashion world takes that view (see: my recent article on the “African” theme of many fashion shows…it’s more colonial chic than anything).

    also, even if i were to imagine myself in the pasts of other, non-western, non-white cultures, i’d still be up shit’s creek for other reasons. i.e. i am not straight…i am female…and well, just because a culture is not white doesn’t mean it’s going to be all open arms and welcoming to people with brown skin. let’s not forget that. even now, that’s a problem and it’s 2009.

  23. Morpho wrote:

    Gee, interesting topic… you know, my Myers-Briggs type (XSFJ) intimates that I am most comfortable dealing with the past, and I indeed have a love affair of sorts with the Renaissance — but as your friendly, run-o’-the-mill, neighborhood gay black Jewish boy, I’m really not sure where I could go in the past and not be drawn and quartered on sight.

    I suppose I could live anywhere, so long as no one knew I existed — which, then, isn’t really living, is it?

  24. Wendi Muse wrote:

    lol morpho…yeah, not so much!

  25. Aishtamid wrote:

    Nostalgia is indeed a sport for the privileged. As a white man, maybe I would’ve had a nicer life back in the day if I were extremely lucky. Then I realized how they treated the mentally ill back then (they didn’t), remembered that I’d be thrown into a cage and left to die, and said fuck it.

  26. SayNay wrote:

    Another Jane Austen addict checking in. I don’t think I’ve let go of my “love affair” for that period but it’s more reframed. Now when I go back to read the books or watch a film adaptation, I’m like “what a nice story” and go about my business. I agree I don’t want to live in any time but this one or maybe a better future.

    @ Lakergrrl this is more of an extreme example but Octavia Butler’s Kindred is pretty good, though it pretty much scares you straight on long time ago nostalgia.

    @ Fiqah I agree about Dr. Who. I was surprised they made any attempts to acknowledge it, especially in the Shakespeare and the Doctor losing his “essence” episodes.

  27. ztastz wrote:

    Make room, ’cause I’m right there with you!

    Even as a kid I was never able trick myself into thinking I’d have wacky time travel hi-jinks like Marty McFly. And I was fairly certain if I went back far enough I’d be enslaved or killed when the wrong person found out I knew how to read and write.

    @ atlasien: Don’t get me started about Battlestar Galactica and its dumb-ass finale!

  28. PPR_Scribe wrote:

    As a kid all my friends loved the series “Little House on the Prairie.” Even in my pre-Black identity stage I just couldn’t get into it. (Tho I did watch it so I could talk about the episodes with my friends.)

  29. Amused0472 wrote:

    @Atlasien: I live in Atlanta too. My neighborhood is Reynoldstown which was founded by former slaves. One day on our community yahoo group, someone put a post encouraging people to come out to some Confederate antique festival or some such nonsense. Now I usually don’t get in a tizzy if I see the rebel flag or these stupid “tradition” bumper stickers. But I had to stop and tell this person that it was really was insensitive to make such a plug to a neighborhood with a history such as ours. I thought it was beyond ignorant. Of course, I got no response, but I felt better.

    People need to know there are real feelings stemming from the past that we carry with us in the present. My grandmother has friends who will not go to a movie theater to this day because of their experiences in the Jim Crow South.

  30. donna wrote:

    I think Louis CK did a bit about white privilege and mentioned the travelling back in time aspect it was both entertaining and insightful.

  31. Brothel Poet wrote:

    OH MY GOD!! YOU GUYS!!
    Just wait. You will see how I fuse your love for Anne of Green Gables with the past. Give me a year or two. And you will see!

  32. Fiqah wrote:

    I iz in ur rashalishuss owtin ur doktor who fanz.

  33. NancyP wrote:

    kitteh picsur plz, Fiqah.

    As a WASP woman, I never had a fantasy of living in the past, except as a fly on the wall historian.

    I love modern sanitation, medicine, heating/cooling, education, teh Intertoobs, etc.

  34. Brothel Poet wrote:

    However. What I am working on isn’t necessarily dreamy and light. But wasn’t Jane Austen also talking about the subjugation of women? In Sense and Sensibility, that was really about the lack of choices these women had? Am I right? The movies are just shot nicely.

  35. Wendi Muse wrote:

    donna,
    yeah here’s the louis ck piece (p.s. i <3 him!)

  36. bradski wrote:

    As a kid, my time travel fantasies were about going to the future. I knew what the past had in store and was not interested in visiting it. I knew that the present was racist and the past was more so. No matter how wonderful the past seemed to be presented, much of it seemed horrific.

    When people would talk about the 1950s and earlier, I would think of Jim Crow.

    Yeah, I did have the Robin Hood fantasy but that was more magical than historical trips.

    Slightly off topic: I was reading a Star Trek Voyager novel that depicted what the crew of Voyager was doing shortly after returning to the Alpha Quandrant. Janeway and a friend decided to go to dinner at a holodeck restaurant. The setting? An antebellum mansion in the South.

    I wanted to puke. Would anyone think that having a dinner party at a Nazi concentration camp be a fun time? What were the author and editors thinking?

  37. Lakergrrl wrote:

    @ SayNay
    I loved Kindred! It was sooo good. But methinks I would take Regency England anyday over the antebellum south

  38. bradski wrote:

    Following up on my comment about Star Trek Voyager’s Janeway having dinner in holodeck Antebellum environment, I can’t imagine that most African-American or black person from the Americas would have written that scene.

    There’s such romanticization of the South because of “Gone with the Wind” that many whites can’t grasp the horror of that age. The fantasy of the dashing Rhett Butler and sassy, beguiling Scarlett O’Hara eclipses the brutal reality of the slave society. It’s easy to focus on the glamour of the age while ignoring the savage and bloody horror happening just outside the windows of Tara.

    Of course, the reality is that time travel for LGBTQ and women in general is just as problematic. In what age would these people be able to travel safely and be able to really live free lives?

    A white woman in 18th Century America did not possess equal rights of those afforded to their white male counterparts: no right to vote, no right to own land, etc.

    Up until the last few years, a gay man could be arrested in Ohio and charged with a felony for hitting on another man.

    And, of course, depending on where one travels today, people of color and LGTBQ people can still find themselves victimizes for being different.

    __________

    Did anyone read about the DoJ’s DOMA brief and its use of preventing incest as a justification for DOMA? What does that say about our age and our president? I’ve read that some LGBTQ Americans feel that this Obama’s embracing Bill Clinton’s tactics.

  39. Robin wrote:

    I’ve been called a buzzkill by men when “if you could live in any other time” conversations come up (which they did quite a bit when I was a History student). Even assuming that I could pass for an appropriate ethnicity in the past (I’m half Native, half Ashekenazi Jew), and ignoring the fact that it wouldn’t have been pleasant to live without indoor plumbing and modern medicine, life has been better for women than we have it today in the western world. At most other periods of the past anywhere in the world, I wouldn’t have been able to vote or own physical or intellectual property. I wouldn’t have been able to get the education I have, especially as someone from a low-income background. I may not have been able to choose my own partner. I wouldn’t have had legal protection from a violent husband or family member when it comes to abuse or rape. I wouldn’t have been able to travel on my own, or have a career of my choosing, or take charge of my own reproductive abilities.

    Things sure aren’t perfect here and now, but they’re the best they’ve ever been – and like others here I’m not interested in going anywhere but forward.

  40. Nadra wrote:

    Oddly, I was interested in going back to the racist past growing up. I really loved Mildred D. Taylor’s “Rollng Thunder Hear My Cry,” and other books about the Logan family’s fight to keep their land in Depression Era Mississippi.
    Also, Kate Chopin’s The Awakening written in the late 1800s offers a look at what it would be like to be a woman of color. There are many references to quadroons and octoroons coming in and out. There’s even a reference to a griffe, someone who is 3/4 black. I didn’t know what any of these terms meant until I read that book. Although women of color are in the margins, I think the Awakening offers some insight into the realities of race back then.

  41. Blue Jean wrote:

    Reminds me of the time a scifi fan asked Isaac Asimov
    “Wouldn’t you love to go back to the time when everyone had servants?”

    Asimov smiled and said “Indeed not, for we would be the servants.”

    Speaking of realistic time travel like Butler’s Kindred, there’s also Tarr and Turtledove’s Household Gods where a modern American woman travels back to Roman times, where there’s no indoor plumbing, antibiotics, electricity, etc. and women are third class citizens.
    Worth a look.

  42. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @Fiqah–::side-eye:: Only you, my friend, only you.

    @Everyone–
    Anne of Green Gables, Jane Austen, Little House on the Prairie…my nostalgic-trip books of yesteryear were Little Women and–yep, I’ll say it–Kathleen E. Woodwiss romance novels. And, now that I think about it, historical romance novels in general…definite myth-made (and -making) past mixed with titillation.

  43. Miss Profe wrote:

    It’s funny how many Caucasians long for the past, i.e. the so-called “good old days”, without it being rooted in any historical context. I recall a conversation in the faculty lounge when I was working at a private school in Augusta, GA – not exactly a bastion of progressive thinking – the school or the community as a whole. Anyway, I don’t even recall what the topic of conversation was, but then one of my colleagues, a white woman exclaimed, ” I want to go back to those days, y’all.” She was referring to the 1950s. Hmmm. I seem to recall something going on in the South at the time; it was called, Jim Crow Segregation, and as sure as I am writing this, my Black butt wouldn’t have been sitting in the lounge of that school. No way, no how.

    All of the aforementioned said, life in the South during the 1950s wasn’t all that good for a whole lot of white women, either, if my historical memory serves. But, it sure was a lot better for them than it was for Black Americans, – female or male.

    One last thing: The state of Georgia was blessed to have Senator Thurman. The good old days. Right.

  44. InfamousQBert wrote:

    beautifully stated. as much fun as it is to play pretend in beautiful gowns, it’s just that – pretend. the times we fantasize about never existed.

    note – i also am guilty of avonlea love. i like to remind myself about the lack of indoor plumbing whenever i get TOO nostalgic. :)

  45. Wendi Muse wrote:

    one thing i should say here is that while the article focuses on the racial aspects of imagined pasts, i should point out, as commenter Aishtamid noted, there are many levels of privilege. there is the issue of sexuality, ability, mental capacity, wealth, etc, and when i use the term “privilege,” i am talking about all of that.

    as i replied to tamara above, no matter the time period or place, heck even in the present, the issue of privilege is relative to that time and place. being privileged during one time may consist of completely different things than it does now and from say X country’s perspective.

  46. Miss Profe wrote:

    I wrote in error: Senator Thurmond, and the state of South Carolina was blessed to have him.

  47. c.n. edaw wrote:

    PPR_Scribe wrote:

    As a kid all my friends loved the series “Little House on the Prairie.” Even in my pre-Black identity stage I just couldn’t get into it. (Tho I did watch it so I could talk about the episodes with my friends.)

    Guilty black woman here! My grandmother was an English teacher and the first set of books she gave me when I got into reading novels were the “Little House ” series collection. I have always loved to read since before kindergarten and I read those books over and over dreaming about roughing it out on the prairie and wearing a bonnet–my grandma even made me a Little House dress and bonnet for dress up day at school.

    Now while my view of that time period was not at that point completely enlightened; it also was not completely naive.

    For example, that same grandmother who gave me the books also proudly belonged to a group (whose name I forget sadly) which was made up of African American women who preserved the history of blacks who settled the west. So I knew my ancestors were free blacks or freed slaves (many of whom intermarried with Native Americans, who are not at all portrayed in the best light in the “Little House” series) who had helped settle Texas and Oklahoma in the 1800’s and were just as much pioneers as the Ingalls clan.

    Probably more harmful to me in my developmental years were white teachers who during discussions of American history allowed white students to wax poetic about their ancestors and accomplishments–but who were angry or confrontational with me when I would tell what bits of my own family history I knew. I had one teacher tell me there’s no way I could be partially Native American and , that all of my black ancestors JUST HAD TO have been slaves and that there’s no way my white great-grandmother could have been married to my black great-grandfather.

    Our educational system only allows for discourse of blacks as slaves (until the civil rights movement), Native Americans as the displaced and “race mixing” JUST DID NOT HAPPEN !!

    How all these people from the West Coast of Africa ended up all these different shades of skin color, eye color, and hair textures once dragged onto American soil is just some big mystery of genetics (wink, wink) that we cannot even begin to discuss in a classroom setting, LOL!

    .

  48. golby260 wrote:

    I also live around Atlanta (south of the Perimeter ^^; ), and I also hate Gone with the Wind and the rest of the Antebellum/”look at our Old South plantations” shit industry.

    The farthest I’d ever go back is the 1970s. For whatever reason, I really like the stuff from that decade. I think, as a black American woman, and as an Igbo, I’d be *OK* as long as I don’t run into any racists, and as long I stay out of northern Nigeria, then and now (*waves to other Nigerians in the thread* :) ). That, and then, maybe a short visit to the 1930s to see what John Hope, et al, were doing, and then, correct some shit from my past (isn’t that the REAL reason to time travel? :D ), and then, go right back home.

    But, yeah: my mother still loves watching Jane Austen movies. She bought the Keira Knightley Pride & Prejudice around late 2006 or 2007, and then, I bought her the book and the book “Emma,” also. She never really read the books, but she went Austen-crazy and bought a bunch of other Austen movies and the ‘96 P&P miniseries, which she loves, loves, loves. She also ended up buying a lot of other BBC and other British film adaptations also, like the Mayor of Castorbridge and He Knew He Was Right, and then, some “heritage(?)”-inspired stuff like David Mamet’s the Winslow Boy. Not sure what she gets out of them, other than enjoying the dialouge and the romance (she LOVES chick flicks — owns almost every Nora Ephron movie ever written or made), but whenever she goes, “why can’t things be like that? :( ,” I remind her that these women busy trying to get hitched couldn’t even really own property or they weren’t allowed to vote. Then again, the 1995 Sense and Sensibility seems to do a good job of keeping anyone from getting nostalgic — Emma Thompson’s adaptation seems to do a good job (even though I’m not sure of how accurate it all is — I haven’t read the book) of reminding people that Elenor and Marianne have to move to a whole other house, and run around after men they hope will marry them, because their half-brother and his wife are a bunch of stingy, classist jerks who kicked them out of their home after their father died. That really is everything.

    (And then, we have to wonder how England got so “grand” back then, also. I’m sure the West and East Indies they keep bringing up so romantically once in every movie might have something to do with that. :P )

    Among the best novels, IMO, are the ones that tell you how much better things are now, or warn us about how bad things could be in the future. Rosy-colored nostalgia about how better “things were then” always tends to be reactionary, and thus, not exactly productive. As far as Wuthering Heights goes, as much as I love that book still, I don’t EVER want to be Heathcliff in 18th-century Yorkshire. I think Emily Brontë did a great job of making sure I wouldn’t ever want to do more there then or now than visit a pub or look at the nice scenery, especially since some of the residents now are BNP voters. Eek.

  49. atlasien wrote:

    @Wendi: “being privileged during one time may consist of completely different things than it does now and from say X country’s perspective.”

    Back in Mediterranean classical times, blond Germanic types were stereotyped as stupid, ferocious savages while dark-skinned “Ethiopians” were supposed to be clever, but overly civilized and effete. The idea was that the hotter your climate, the smarter you were, but the more cowardly. Hey, it makes about as much sense as most of our modern-day stereotypes.

  50. Lakergrrl wrote:

    Ugh. I’ve hated little house on the prairie since 2nd grade, especially the parental units. I came across this article recently. It described my feelings perfectly. http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/littlehouse.html

    On the flip side, Zoe by T.A. Ford is a really good historical romance with a twist… its set in 17th century france. mushy at times but still cool

  51. Jha wrote:

    This talk about nostalgia is interesting since I identify as a steampunk of colour (one of few) whose interest in the genre stems from the possibilities of historical revisionism to empower PoC, as opposed to merely roleplaying the racist, sexist Victorian era in an SCA way. Yeah, the steam tech is really cool and the clothes are super pretty, but that doesn’t mean anything.

  52. thewayoftheid wrote:

    @Nadra

    OMG that was one of my FAVORITE childhood books growing up. And I totally fantasized about traveling back in time to stick up for Cassie and her family.

    I also loved the Choose Your Own Adventure series, but could never get over the fact that been alive at the time of say, the Revolutionary War I’d probably be in chains instead of fighting for America’s independence.

  53. JL wrote:

    Yeah, I kind of figure that having been two months premature, and having had a bad case of pneumonia at the age of three, I’d have been DEAD if I’d been born more than a few decades ago. And then, even if I could have gotten around that, as a mixed-heritage, half-Jewish, atheist woman…that would probably have not gone very well, wherever I was.

    I read a lot of historical fiction, but I wasn’t interested in actually going back to the relevant time periods. I mean, it seemed clear enough, just from reading the books, that life could be very hard back then in ways that it isn’t now. The only era that I ever fantasized about going back to was the ’60s, because I was an idealistic little kid and wanted to be a ’60s radical.

    Despite having grown up in the South, and having been considered white for all practical purposes by the people around me (i.e. I was light-skinned and not black or Asian), I wasn’t interested in the whole Gone With the Wind mythos. I still haven’t read it or seen the movie. I was more interested in the books set in that time period that were about blacks and poor whites.

  54. Kaonashi wrote:

    I loved the Little House on the Prairie books when I was little because Laura didn’t take things at face value. If there was something that she didn’t think was right, she would say so. She was the only one in the family that questioned why the Native Americans had to move and who wasn’t outright hostile to them (unlike her mother). The doctor that came and saved their lives when they had malaria was Black, and her reaction was pretty much what most little kids would have when they first encounter someone different.

    It might not be nice to say so, but I will love her forever for that scene in Farmer Boy with the bullwhip!

    I think if I could go back in time it would be to two places: Harlem and Paris circa 1920-30 and the 60s.

  55. jp wrote:

    I am loving the Dr Who references!

    Actually, it was BETTER to be black in England in the 17th Century than in the 18th or 19th. There are a number of accounts of African visitors to London who were important personages–diplomats, tradesmen, ambassadors–who were treated with a combination of exoticism and respect. The slave trade had not yet become as entrenched in the English economy as it would in later years. So the association of “black/African” with “inferior/slave” had not yet become an established way of thinking. Shakespeare’s Othello offers a good “timestamp” of the moment; sure, some characters say racist and ugly things about him, but he has risen to a high position in the army, has the respect of the Senate, and Desdemona’s love for him is unquestioned in the play.

    Even 30-40 years later, a character like Othello would have been impossible for an English playwright to conceive.

  56. Titanis walleri wrote:

    Personally, if I had a time machine, I’d be going back before the agricultural revolution to check out all that awesome megafauna we killed off. Hell, there’s so many places I would want to go in the Cenozoic alone…

  57. Tamara wrote:

    Wendy,

    I think i’m getting your point, but within the context of nostalgic romatic fantasy pasts, which are completely unhistorical, but which do have their place in storytelling, I think the failure is not so much that they include privelege – becuase said fake!past is built up on all these little trappings of fashion and architecture and language and the way things *look* and *feel*, they are going to include wealth and servitude and so on (although “color blind casting” does seem to try to correct that – but only by choosing to be deliberately anti-historical on these points.)

    Anyway, I think the disservice done vis a vis this stuff to people who are not white/straight/etc, is by turing “the past” into a very particualr version of the past, where they cannot be participants (even in the sanitized, hollywood past in which enough spunk and determination will stand a girl in good place of basic legal rights, and the good guys are always nice to their servants.)

    I think I do get it – growing up in the west, naturally the particular images of the past will be western ones, and theres no changing the fundumental nature of that past.

    The only solution I can see is either to blur the edgesn of west – and make none western stories, set in none western pasts – that arent going to be free of thier own privelege complexes, but will provide a glowy romantic past that PoC can organically daydream about, complete with swirly a-historical costumes and no mention of health care – but thats not necessarily fitting the trope of “good old days” and may be obscure or exotic and thus not lead someone to really feel at home there (not to mention being fraught with all the issues of appropriation of bowlederizing someone elses history for your entertainment. At least when youre bowlderizing your own its…well, easier, somehow, i’m sure. )

    Or, to bolderized the local, relevant past even fiurther, and try to create stories where minorities can be full participants, but that is, at very best, a lie, and to produce a quaint, silly past where the reality was horrific is offensive.

    So, um, yeah. I think I see your point. It just took me a while to get there – for me, that corset wearing Jane Austen victoriana *is* exotic (i’m Israeli) so it took me a while to get it. (assuming I haven’t fudged this up completely). Personally, when my own historical daydreams take me further afield, I have no problem imagining a different appearance for myself – indeed, that might be part of it along with the outfit – but that may also be becuase physical appearance isn’t quite as strongly tangled up in identity here as it is in the west. (I now need to figure out if i’m somehow still *jewish* in my daydreams)

    Finally, I have have messed up nostalgia with general historical fantasy, making my earlier post just plain wrong, so I hope this one, which I didn’t mean to ramble on for so long, is more coherent in context of the OP.

  58. trooper6 wrote:

    I’m with jp here. Being of color in the past was not necessarily a bad thing….especially if you were rich.

    The past, even the european past was much less white than europeans like to imagine. Alessandro deMedici was half Italian, half African. Alexander Dumas (of the three Musketeers fame) was also mixed. Marie Antoinette’s court composer was mixed. There have been people of color in England for a long long time. All over Europe.

    Generally it sucked to be poor…great to be the King or Queen.

    Anyway, most historical time periods would not have been for me even if I were crazy rich. But if I’d go anywhere in the past, I’d go to the 1920s. Where? Lots of options, Paris, Berlin, London, San Francisco, Harlem in New York. I could work some awesome 1920s action. But…I’d have to die really young…because I would not want to be around for the 1930s.

  59. Restructure! wrote:

    Once upon a time, long ago, I too romanticized the past. In English class, we once had a unit on Romanticism (the movement). When it was laid out like that, the assumptions and frame made explicit, I realized how silly the whole idea was.

    I don’t fantasize about living in the past. I fantasize about living in the future. (I also prefer sci fi set in the future over fantasy set in the past.)

  60. shah8 wrote:

    If I had a time machine, and I couldn’t come back to the future, then that’s probably bad.

    But seriously, there are plenty of times and places where people are accepting of useful strangers and you could parlay a 21st century education into a reasonably comfortable life. One must remember, nostalgia industries exists for the places people *wouldn’t* want to visit if they were sane. The US South was just such a completely pathological place, and white people tend to underestimate the kind of vicious police-state good ole boyism that went on up to post Jim Crow. England was often a pretty terrible place in terms of sanitation (the Thames regularly breached the banks with loads of raw sewage) and in terms of social life. You quite explicitly had to be both wealthy and connected to enjoy much of any rights at all. However, plenty of other times and places had pretty modern sensibilities, if not modern tech, and if you were useful, well, then, it wouldn’t be so bad, regardless of skin color or (to a lesser degree)sex.

  61. Ruchama wrote:

    On the historical fiction topic, one thing that I thought was really interesting was the American Girl doll Josefina. She lives in New Mexico (or, well, land that would later become New Mexico) in 1824, when there were practically no English-speakers in that area. I really liked that choice of time and place for a few reasons — because it put the Hispanic character in a time and place where she could be in a privileged position in many ways; because it told a story that hasn’t been told too often before; and because it said that this girl who speaks Spanish (and who really has no idea that she might ever want to learn English) IS an American girl.

    They did something similar with the books about Kaya, a Nez Perce girl — they’re set in 1764, which I’m pretty sure is either before or just at the beginning of European contact in that part of the country.

    The African-American doll and the new Jewish doll, though, are pretty much exactly the times and places you’d expect — Addy is a runaway slave, and Rebecca is the daughter of immigrants on the Lower East Side in 1914. Both of those stories have just been told so many times before.

  62. Restructure! wrote:

    Speaking of male privilege and nostalgia, Daisy Dead Air writes of the documentary Surfwise:

    Like many hippies of the day, Dorian would drive and drive and drive until a locale “felt right”–Juliette’s input was not sought or required. She was pregnant and/or breastfeeding, she said, for 10 solid years. “I’ve blocked a lot of it out,” she reports. I would imagine so.

    Juliette was not an active part of the surfing fun, the whole raison d’être for the family lifestyle. Instead, she kept the whole enterprise going; the cooking, the cleaning, the continuous and non-stop settling of endless squabbling in a family of 8 boys (all intensely competitive for the attention of Dorian) and 1 girl… all huddled into the now-legendary 24-foot camper.

    [...]

    I came away from the movie remembering various rural communes and back-to-the-land experiments I visited in my youth… always upset because it seemed to me that their much-coveted, newly found “freedom” always belonged to men, and women were more enslaved that ever before. (Washing machines, after all, helped women, not men.) Consequently, whenever I hear about men deciding to jettison ‘modern conveniences’–I reach for my gun.

    It’s interesting that a vehicle is never one of those things they choose to do without… and they will invariably be the one driving it, too.

  63. Sobia wrote:

    All this talk of Anne is hilarious to me. I grew up in the land of Anne and she is EVERYWHERE! Islanders are OBSESSED with the Victorian era and it is a huge part of the tourism. It’s so irritating to be honest because there have been many a time where I have realized how much of a misfit people like me were in that narrative. The whole Island tourism narrative is about a longing for “better” times.

  64. Sobia wrote:

    Damn…I could write a whole piece on how the focus on Anne of Green Gables and Victorian era on PEI has been exclusionary of non-Whites and is something only those of privilege can “re-live” and fantasize about.

  65. Reiter wrote:

    Interesting topic. A few of my guilty pleasures include “nostalgic” movies like Big Fish, Forrest Gump, and even Benjamin Button (yes, I admit to liking this film). And period flicks like The Count of Monte Cristo. I even liked Jane Austen’s works when I read them back in high school and college as part of assignments but found them enjoyable on their own.

    But even as I watched/read these works, I realized I that POCs play a minimal role in them, if any (or serve as background or supporting characters to help the protagonist along a la “magical fill-in-the-blank-POC”).

    Even as adults, we can harp on about the “good ol’ days” and remember things from our childhoods and younger years as being better than they actually were. And I think that’s the most important part of it; things we cherished back in the day rarely are as good as we actually remember them.

  66. Ruchama wrote:

    The Anne books were also very specifically Anglo — in the first book, French-speaking people are mentioned only a few times, and every time it’s as hired farm hands. There’s one scene where Matthew buys some coarse dark brown sugar, and Marilla tells him that she doesn’t know why he bought so much of that low-quality sugar, since the only thing she uses it for is meals for the French boy.

    The Emily books by the same author get more interesting with French characters. A French boy named Perry is one of the main characters, and it’s made pretty clear that there’s a lot of discrimination against him and that it’s unfair.

  67. BSK wrote:

    Very interesting piece. I’m white, but recently I had made a joke, in talking about my taste in music, how I would have ideally grown up black in the 80’s. My friend IMMEDIATELY called me on it, saying, “Really???” That made me realize the absurdity of what I said, and the way in which my white privilege allowed me to have this nostalgic view of the past. I was reviled at how easily I could be so naive.

  68. Cccc wrote:

    Oh yeahhh. I can totally relate to this article. My best friend is a blonde, blue-eyed Southern belle whose family has a habit of romanticizing the past. Southern pride is very important to them. Very important. Important like her father has little figurines all over the house that display the Confederate flag as a glorious emblem. Important like she and her sister are Daughters of the Confederacy. Important like her family is staunchly conservative and opposes miscegenation (though they know I’m of mixed heritage). Important like both she and her sister had debutante balls that presented them to society.
    Yeah. It’s that bad.
    I really hope I’m not painting an awful picture of my friends. They’re not white trash, they’re not racists, and they’re not hate mongers. They are actually really loving people whom I trust. The problem is, though, they just can’t seem to comprehend the fact that those “good ol’ days” where Southern gentlemen were refined and the Southern ladies were prudent were also the days that my ancestors were reduced to less than human and had to work like animals. Somehow, they overlook such a significant part of the era that they so lionize.
    I remember one incident in particular that bothered me while in class, AP US History, after a discussion on the Civil War. My friend (the same one) got really upset and felt her values were violated (how! I’m still not sure) because our instructor, she claimed, didn’t tell the correct motive behind why the South seceded from the Union. Our instructor said the secession was to maintain slavery, and my friend said it was done to uphold states’ rights/decisions. What she didn’t realize, however, was that the Southern states wanted to uphold states’ rights to keep the institution of slavery because they were making LOTS of money off the oppression of a people. Well, oops.
    Our relationship isn’t always that conflicting, though. It’s usually as simple as her gloating over some historical film, typically starring Kiera Knightly, and I’m always in the background like, “Sorry, chick, I don’t get it.” But we do both adore Jane Austen. For different reasons, of course, but we still bond over them. I suppose our differences have made our friendship more meaningful because of our complexities. I’m gradually turning her into a liberal-minded, independent, free-thinking progressive. Just wait. (lol)
    Back to the article.
    I’ve actually never really internalized why I’ve been so suspicious of historical fiction/ historical films up until about a year ago. It just kinda slapped me in the face: “Oh yeah. I’m black (or, at least according to the one drop rule, I am). I wouldn’t have been allowed to participate in that golden age of propriety. Darn.”

    @DIMA! Loved the Green Gables. I wanted red hair for a long time. I was also into Pippy Longstockings and Annie as a kid, too, so I really coveted the red hair.
    @atlasien South is notoriously a nostalgic region. It’s bittersweet, really.
    @Ramona Yeah, I believe I had the same assignment, but I remember writing complete bull. They’d have us watch a re-enactment of the days in the life of a colonist, they’d ask us to put ourselves in the colonist’s place, and then they’d tell us to write about it, so naturally I’d write about what I saw in the re-enactment instead of my being enslaved. Sad friggin’ day.

  69. Cccc wrote:

    Oh. Some more food for thought.
    Once in high school for Halloween, I dressed up as Audrey Hepburn. No one got the reference, of course, though I had the iconic little black dress with pearls and an updo. One boy, who was/is Korean and apparently very observant, asked me who I was. I told him, and he said without missing a beat, “but you’re black!” as if my skin color took away from the entire friggin’ costume. I was so pissed. I didn’t talk to him for like a week. I should have retorted back at him, “What?! Do you want me to dress up as Hattie McDaniels? Or Dorothy Dandridge? I’m more than sure you wouldn’t have gotten the reference then!”
    But whatever. That’s called the past. And I’m done with it.

  70. Brothel Poet wrote:

    Hmm.. my post about Jane Austen seems to have been moderated out of the postings. The one very dingy post was left in tact. Am wondering why.
    Anyway, my point was- a lot of Jane Austen deal with the oppression of women. In a lovely and enchanting way. Usually novels of import set in the past deal with the same thing they deal with today- alienation, oppression, the search for a whole self. Alright. If this gets moderated out of the forum, instead of my really dingy one, I shall be quite curious.

  71. Ghetto Nerd wrote:

    Hmm.. my post about Jane Austen -under brothel poet- seems to have been moderated out of the postings. The one very dingy post was left in tact. Am wondering why.
    Anyway, my point was- a lot of Jane Austen deal with the oppression of women. In a lovely and enchanting way. Usually novels of import set in the past deal with the same thing they deal with today- alienation, oppression, the search for a whole self. So I think that films with interesting costumes and period allure can be made with some romanticism, and realism. The transcendane of the hero or minoriti heroine, for example. Why not?.

  72. Elton wrote:

    Nostalgia is actually wrong in two senses. Yes, in the sense of having false conceptions of the past being better than the present in ways that it wasn’t, but also in the sense that we can draw a clear dividing line between the past and the present and therefore the injustices of the past are somehow over or behind us.

    This is the assumption that the privileged of today base their worldview upon. It has probably always been how the privileged with any conscience have been able to sleep at night–by assuming that their society is more civilized, fair, enlightened, humane, egalitarian, or democratic than their communist, fascist, third-world, infidel, etc. neighbors.

    This is the arrogant assumption, reinforced consciously and subconsciously by the media, that fuels the belief that one’s nation, religion, or race is superior.

    Is it possible to have pride without superiority? One would hope so.

  73. James wrote:

    For the record, 99% of everyone (regardless of race) would have had a much shittier life were they born in an earlier era. With a few notable exceptions, the story of human history involves a movement toward more democracy, prosperity and egalitarianism.

    Most of everyone had it pretty fucking shitty for most of history. Now, only like half of everyone has it pretty shitty. That’s progress.

  74. cb3n wrote:

    I loved this post, it’s been thought provoking in the sense that I’ve been thinking about it off and on all day.

    In some ways of course, nostalgia and historical fiction and what not are related to fantasy and escapism as much as any sort of real understanding of history. I kind of feel like it’s impossible to translate any given time period accurately into media unless people of that time period are still living and providing input into the experience of living in those years. Heck, it’s difficult for modern creators to produce media that accurately reflects what it’s like living in 2009. I mean really, will The Taking of Pelham 123 or The Hangover really present future generations with an accurate idea about daily life in America here and now? Similarly, historical fiction novels and films must inherently present a selective and often idealized version of the periods they are set in and I suspect that most wouldn’t be able to make a much stronger claim to any sort of reality than Lord of the Rings or whatever.

    I guess this is sort of tangential though to the question of privilege and nostalgia. Maybe what I’m getting at is that possibly part of the reason that nostalgia is “a sport for the privileged” (a sentiment I totally agree with) is because we view nostalgia as a yearning for a perfectly accurate depiction of the past when maybe we should be looking at it as being no different than when I fall asleep reading super hero comic books and my last thoughts of the day are of what I’d want my power to be if I was an Avenger.

    Of course I suppose the danger in that kind of thinking would be to “rainbow-wash” our understanding of history. By making remembrances of history open to intentional fantastical interpretation, we run the risk of erasing the facts of oppression and the ramifications of the past that echo today.

    In the end I am unclear on what my point is here, I’ve just been thinking on this all day. I guess what I can say I feel is that it seems like there should be room for any and everyone to fantasize about the past, insofar as all of our conceptions of the past are always somewhat fantasy, but it’s also important to hold onto a knowledge of the history of oppression. I totally agree that these things are difficult to reconcile, but I think it would be easier if we thought of nostalgia as an exercise in fantasy instead of actual remembrance.

  75. Emmeaki wrote:

    I grew up in the 80’s watching the TV show “Happy Days” and I longed to live back in the 50’s so I could go to sock hops, wear poodle skirts, and dance to “Rock Around the Clock”.

    When I was old enough, I finally realized that my black ass wouldn’t have been allowed to patronize a place like Arnold’s, let alone mingle with white teenagers. That really burst my bubble!

  76. Switchhttr69 wrote:

    I think Billy Joel sang it best:

    “You know the good ol’ days weren’t always good/And tomorrow ain’t as bad as it seems.”

  77. RCHOUDH wrote:

    Great post! I once read that novels/stories created by colonial era authors always depicted the colonies of Africa, Asia, and Latin America as places where whites went to for empire, riches, and adventures. The natives of these lands were pretty much ignored in these stories or made to litterally supporting characters in the whites’ quest for adventure and romance. Nowadays the West looks on with disdain towards the former colonies state of social, economic, and political difficulties (which they grudgingly admit to having caused through their imperialism).

    @ CrazyCatDoc

    I hear you loud and clear about the annoyance over hearing hippies waxing nostalgic about the “revolutionary” 60’s. One of the things they like to harp on about was how their anti war activism was essentially the reason for America pulling its troops out of Vietnam. They like to think that all their protests and countercultures helped to finally bring peace in Vietnam. They don’t understand why current day Americans don’t engage in the same level of anti war activism in order to force the government to end the War on Terror. By simplifying past and present day conflicts they’re muddling the stark differences between the Vietnam conflict and present day conflict, two major differences being that the US pulled out of Vietnam only after it saw that Communism was not spreading to the rest of South East Asia and because it understood that Vietnam never held much strategic and commercial value to the US. This is in contrast to the current wars where the US wants to gain the enormous strategic and commercial values inherent in the Middle East and South Central Asia, and where it wants to shield its colonialist ambitions under the guise of fighting Islamic extremists hell bent on taking over the world much like the Communists/sarcasm! So contrary to what 60’s nostalgists might believe anti war activism played a minor but visible role in pulling America out of Vietnam. But simplifying matters is what nostalgia for the past is for though!

  78. RCHOUDH wrote:

    I forgot to mention also that because of their myopic view of past anti war activism and present day activism, 60’s nostalgists don’t realize that present day activism is just as vocal and active as the past (if not as “hip” and trendy as it was in the 60’s but that’s another discussion)! Despite their widespread activities and publicity however, present day activists are having a hard time forcing America to pull out of the current wars not because they’re lazy and doing a bad job on their activism but because the geostrategic/commercial goals of the current war make it harder for them to convince the government to stop this War on Terror nonsense.

  79. Paz wrote:

    But when you think about living in another era, do you imagine you would be exactly how you are now?
    When I was little, I wanted to be a Native American like Pocahontas. Not so much for helping the colonialists (”settlers” as they were referred to in my history books), but for hunting and fishing and being one with the Earth, sometime in the past. (Damn the media/society for teaching me that Natives only exist in the olden days.)
    I mean, it’s fantasy, right? Why does your skin color have to necessarily stay the same?

  80. brownskinlady wrote:

    This conversation is so interesting–both because it has been one I’ve had (albeit in argument) with white, female peers who are obsessed with Jane Austen, but also because of its political relevance. Wendi, a further question to ponder on this topic is why certain moments of the past become nostalgized when they do. You hint that it’s about a reference to the ‘good old days’, but I’d love to unpack why certain ‘days’ become more important at certain times than others. Even beyond points of history that have been ignored altogether, what does it mean that last year there was a nostalgia for Jane Austen through movies? Or even pirates (a la Pirates of the Carribean)? What values were being projected and reinforced that have shifted since, perhaps as more futuristic films have been released? But then again, what about all the obsession with bringing back the ’80s, even through movies like the Transformers, etc? What is the dominant culture using a constructed history to say about today, and what does that mean for the privileged and unprivileged?

    (Granted, those are huge questions, but you got me thinking about them!)

  81. Jess wrote:

    I’ll say that nostalgia for the past isn’t just a white phenomenon. I’m old enough to remember when the first “Afrocentric” curricula started coming out in the 70s. The result was people thinking the ancient Egyptians had some wild secret knowledge.

    The problem with that is you end up buying into the same racist assumptions that the wacky new-age people do. And it completely misses all the great stuff that was accomplished by the civilizations of Benin, or the library at Timbuktu, which has absolutely no connection to Egypt (it is separated by thousands of miles and thousands of years). Or the Swahili traders, who owed no more to the Pharaohs than the Maasai (some of the first and best makers of steel wire).

    And fascinating as I find Mesoamerican civilization — as a linguistics nerd I’m interested in the fact that they were one of maybe three civilizations to invent writing independently — I can’t cotton to the price of losing a ball game being impromptu heart surgery. (Though I wonder how it would affect play — maybe send the pros back to Chichen Itza ca. 1200? Would Kobe be less inclined to grandstand in order to win?)

  82. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    So only wealthy, white, male, straight, Christian landowners should go time-traveling? Okay. ;-)

    But is this really a “white privilege” issue? Wouldn’t all time travelers be in trouble if they dropped in somewhere “foreign”? Realistically speaking, a white Christian Westerner would have huge problems if he materialized somewhere in ancient Asia or Africa.

    P.S. “Anne of Green Gables” rocks!

  83. kate wrote:

    really great discussion everyone, thanks so much for all the interesting points and stories. someone up there mentioned Nzingha, which brought me back to a trip down memory lane. Did anyone ever read the Royal Diaries series? They were a series of “diaries” meant to be written from the POV’s of princesses throughout history. There was a Nzingha, I think a Cleopatra, a Marie Antoinette, a Haitian princess, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_Diaries). I never read all of them but I remember enjoying the ones I did read. I don’t remember how accurate or stereotypical they were, though.

    Looking back, it also seems like the Royal Diaries was considerably less whitewashed than the series off which it was based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dear_America)…

  84. Medusa wrote:

    I love this thread! It’s totally true, although there’s no way I realized it as a child, and it’s not like I had the most racially conscious upbringing. I’m a Ghanaian who went to a predominantly white school in Japan, and I moved to America for secondary school but by that point I had pretty much stopped fantasizing about going back in time. that’s a complete lie. I still do it. But yeah, anything in the past few millennia would have sucked. I think going back to when Ghana was a powerful trading empire would be pretty cool though. Or just African in general pre-European colonialism. I guess the beauty of fantasy is that we can re-imagine things with a completely anti-racist context, eh?

  85. Amir wrote:

    re: donna from comment 30
    I came in here to post about the exact same Louis CK time traveling sketch; and here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&feature=fvw

  86. socgrad wrote:

    It’s funny that you guys are discussing this topic. Over at the blog for Money Magazine they’re talking about a critique of Paul Krugman’s nostalgia for the economic “egalitarianism” of the 1950s.

    The comments quickly devolved into a longing for the good old days of the 50s when “the class divide was smaller” and “people looked out for each other”, with a few people dissenting on the matter.

    Well, of course, I brought up the fact that as a black woman, in the 1950s I would likely be a domestic servant or laborer rather than having a PhD and a professional job and that I, for one, am glad I was born in the 1970s.

    Needless to say, the comment was roundly ignored.

  87. Wendi Muse wrote:

    all readers, please see my comment at #45. i acknowledge that privilege does not necessarily mean whiteness nor is it always the same in every time and place

  88. Evan wrote:

    I bet the indigenous people of the Americas were nostalgic about life before 1492. And I wouldn’t consider them as privileged.

  89. jen* wrote:

    Being a Designing Women fan, my fave way to address the euphoric approach to antebellum Southern history was from Anthony’s [Meshach Taylor's] response in the “Gone With a Whim” episode. Can’t find a clip right now, but your article is right on.

    This also came up once when a few of my [white] friends in college were into the medieval/Renaissance thing. A few belonged to a group that would choose old names and dress up and … I don’t know… joust all day? Anyway, I asked them what they would do with me if I wanted to be in their group. They said – well, we all pretend to be royalty, so, I could pretend as well.

    I never got into it. I wouldn’t play pretend with my little sister, so why would I play with them?

  90. Adrianna wrote:

    I remember watching Lost in Austen in the protagonist in the miniseries ask her black friend to travel to Jane Austen time with her to see how incredible it is there and she stops in front of the magical door and says ” I’m black !Do you know what happened to Black people at that time. you go ” That was hilarious . Yes for some of US the past is best left dead. And we must work harder for the future and present to be better. let’s not forget people there are 27 million slaves in the world today . much more then when my ancestors were enslaved. what do they say more things change more they remain the same.
    @eccentricyoruba
    where are you doing your research for it. I’m a history buff and I’d love to study about the African continents and all of it’s different kingdoms pre European colonization. I would love to make a movie on Aminata someways or Kahina from Morocco or the Candace of Kush.

    @ Altasian
    Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I did not know how Battlestar Gallactica ended. I was waiting to see the entire final season Next time please scream spoilers alert !lol

    I remember that doctor who episodes. I could not be easy for Marta traveling with the doctor to places like this. I mean I would be scared shitless every time.

  91. MoeHailstone wrote:

    It is a sport for the priviledged and I remember having this debate back in 11th grade history class where we had to choose a place we studied and we would want to live. When it was my turn to give my oration (also written) to the class I selected none of the times we studied and explained why I wouldnt’ want to live there. I was subsequently sent to the office and had to explain to the principle with the teacher, Mr. Heacock standin’ right there. I remember Mr. Dumaree (the principle) listening and then said wait a second, if he gave his oration that showed he’s learned those places and social norms of those places you have to grade him on it. Principle was sold on my idea when i asked him “if you were black, show me what time or place you’d want to live?” He arched more than an eyebrow…lol kicked my history teacher’s ass in a debate in 1987!

    Anyway I see it as those in priveldge being nostalgic for the old days where they liked things better. Especially racists and those who long for those times where they were allowed to be more callous toward those that were minorities. Then to make it seem as though its not about that is why they romanticize the lifestyle of that / those days…

    Come on lets get real for a damn second… Show me one person (especially of color) from today that would want to go back in time where
    1. The President wasn’t black
    2. The internet/ bloggin’ / I-phones / PC techonology goes away
    3. Racial relations and glass ceilings were even worse than they are now.
    4. Violence against minorities was more prevalent than it is now

    I could go on and on…but its like someone earlier had posted watchin’ those shows of Happy Days romanticizing the 1950’s until the realized “her black ass” wouldnt have been allowed to hang at Arnold’s…hell the Little Rock Integration was just takin’ place then…

    Fuck livin’ in the past…The future is what’s worthwhile!!!

  92. Liz L wrote:

    In this vein, check out the dueling romance novel reader camps re: historical authenticity. Virtually every romance novel blog/site has had at some point a (very interesting and often painfully candid) slugout over this very issue of nostalgia/glossing the past/reifying certain historical experiences over others. These tend to happen, most interestingly, in the context of either wealth (where did that mill owner get the money for that flashy engagement ring?) or British colonial settings (why does every “local” seem like a stock character from central casting?).

    Side one we have the “wallpaper” historical champs, who prefer their history lite and their Almack’s lemonade lukewarm. Side two we have the history buffs, who would like to see a connection drawn between our pretty heroine’s dress, the hero’s plantation in the West Indies, and the slaves who toiled in the fields to create the wealth the two live off of back in ye olde England.

    What’s most fascinating is that often the wallpaper history crowd defend their preference by pointing to the contemporary norms of the characters. If Lord X and Lady Y wouldn’t have given a fig for the child laborers cleaning out their chimneys, then it is more historically accurate to occlude discussion of the kids altogether. Which, of course, leaves unanswered the question of why we always have to read Lord X and Lady Y’s story, again and again ad nauseum.

    Fiqah- Too funny. Immediately after romance novel website comment page flame wars, the second thing I thought of was the Doctor and Martha walking through London. I love this place.

  93. Asianlawyer wrote:

    I also would like to live in Paris or New York in the 1920s even though I am an Asian American. I actually sort of have the look and style of 1920s jazz muscians so I figure I could make a living playing clarinet and hanging out in bars in between sets. ahhhh….

  94. Ishtar wrote:

    Coincidentally I recently responded to a nostalgic post on a local news site’s blog (www.news24.co.za), reminding the writer that the past is viewed very differently, depending on your ethnicity.

    In South Africa, white people often forget that for POC the past was not a happy-happy place. Nostlagia in our country seems centred around “how it was safer back then” though, “of course we know Apartheid was bad but we’re talking about how there was less crime”.

    Yeah right. There was less crime for white people because the bulk of law enforcement’s resources was used to protect white people. I remember crime being rife in the area I grew up in and every incident of violent crime that affected me or my family happened in that “safer” time.

    I would hate to live in the past in my country. I remember what it was like growing up as a POC in the 70s and 80s in Apaprtheid South Africa and no way would I want to go back there.

    I don’t have a problem with nostalgia per se, but at least it should be acknowledged that not everyone views the past in the same light.

  95. pm wrote:

    I’ve never really understood that nostalgia thing, for this very reason. Frankly the past always seemed pretty horrible to me. I mean, even ignoring social issues like race – the diseases! The lack of a sewer system or plumbing! No recorded music! No computers!

    . And the fact that you’d have to, even as a white person, imagine yourself either as one of the upper class landed gentry knobheads you’ve always hated (they still exist, by the way), or as a toiling peasant. My mum once said that was why she could never stand the Jane Austin dramatisations on TV – she was aware her ancestors would have been the peasants Mr D’Arcy rode past on his horse.

    This clearly varies depending on what country you are in also, I doubt many Europeans are nostaligic for the 50’s. Everyone I know who lived through it remembers it as a ghastly, boring, impoverished era – even for white men (we still had rationing in this country).

    For white, straight, American men I guess it was a golden age, what with all the US’s industrial competitors having been wiped out in WW2, and no civil rights, gay rights or feminism to worry about.

    Nostalgia in this country would probably be mostly for the Victorian era. I suppose that is sort of our version of the US 50’s fetish. It was a time, before WW1 obliterated everything, when Britain seemed dominant and confident. Not so great if you were one of the ’subject peoples’ of Empire though, or one of those reduced to the workhouse.

    Personally I feel nostaligic for the 1970s. Not that they were great in themselves, but, pre-neo-liberalism, pre-Thatcher and pre-Reagan, it still seemed like there was the possibility of something better.

  96. little mixed girl wrote:

    wow, this post has gotten a lot of replies!
    it’s interesting that so many people fantasized about being in the past.

    i actually did a lot of that through elementary and middle school. however, because of the books i was into, i identified with the suffering characters…the slaves (how would i escape and take others with me?), the jewish camp detainees (how would i escape and kill hitler?), etc.
    and when i thought of traveling back in time, i usually thought about how much it’d suck in the food/medication/sanitation realm.

    and i will say i liked the first anne of green gables, but by the 2nd one i was like “….uhh…” and i don’t even know if i got through the 3rd.
    never read jane austin though…but, then again, i’m not really a girly girl ;)

  97. Neville Ross wrote:

    @Ramona:

    ‘I remember that episode! I’m glad they did address it, but I still thought it was a bit weak. Especially when the Doctor’s solution to it was “Just walk around like you own the place, it always works for me.”

    Oh yea, easy for you to say….. XD’

    Ever stop to think that the Doc was right, and that walking with confidence as if you believe in yourself works wonders? It does work sometimes.

    That said, I do agree with the opinion of the article about there being too much nostalgia for the past-I’ve come across this in a lot of online forums with regards to TV shows, movies, and music, especially on YouTube. Too many people see a video of an old TV show/movie/song and they make the standard complaint that nothing is like it was then, or the standard classic line ‘The kids don’t know what they’re missing’. Many forget that images of the past seen in movies and TV shows are racist for non-whites, or at least outdated due to writing/acting styles and set design (a big reason for the recent re-do of Star Trek). Nostalgia also is wrecking the music and radio industries by allowing Classic Rock (or Classic Rot as I call it) to proliferate, destroying the originality of the present decade in order to sustain the past, or to bolster Bob & June Baby Boom’s lives because they can’t stand the current era-an era that they had a part in shaping in the first place! I too also can’t believe that people would want to live in the past, with all of the crap that went on then-racial and otherwise-but of course, they do.

    What we need in North America is a anti-nostalgia movement similar to the short lived National Association For The Advancement of Time that started in the ’80’s., except with dedicated people at the helm and not just a gag. This new version of that organization would really go to work convincing people to stop lionizing the past, to get then to like and accept the present, and get them to work towards a better future.

  98. Autumn wrote:

    Chiming in to say thank you for writing this post! This issue has been on my mind lately, although for no particular reason. It’s just been something I’ve been thinking about, but couldn’t find the words to voice. Thank you for doing so.

  99. atlasien wrote:

    Leaving a quick note that I just finished reading a really great, incisive article about nostalgia in the South…

    Ta-Nehisi Coates: Nathan Bedford Forrest Has Beautiful Eyes

  100. Titanis walleri wrote:

    “I too also can’t believe that people would want to live in the past, with all of the crap that went on then-racial and otherwise-but of course, they do.”
    It’s more that they want to live in an idealized (to them, anyway) version of the past that never really existed in the first place, I think.

  101. Winn wrote:

    I hate that I’ve come late to this post, with all the great responses. I’ve struggled for years with being a woman of color who is also wedded to a number of nostalgic interests that either don’t include me in their narratives at all, or marginalize & stereotype me: old Hollywood musicals, classic animated cartoons, historical mysteries set in the medieval period, British YA fantasy novels from the 60’s and 70’s, British drawing room comedies and Regency romances, Ren Faire and SCA culture, B movies from the 50’s and 60’s, etc. As I became more racially aware and began to scrutinize the imagery and perspectives of the art and literature I consumed, I began to realize exactly how I had been rationalizing some of this stuff to myself.

    Has anyone seen any of the Disney remakes of classic musicals they started producing for ABC television in the early 2000’s? You know, the multicultural “Cinderella” with Brandy and Whoopi Goldberg, or “South Pacific” with Glenn Close and Harry Connick, Jr.? Recently on cable, two of them have been running: “Bye, Bye Birdie” with Jason Alexander and Vanessa Williams, and “The Music Man”, with Matthew Broderick and Kristin Chenoweth. In “Bye, Bye Birdie”, Vanessa Williams plays the character of Rose Alvarez, whose Latina heritage is a pretty important component of the character. It was pretty jarring to see an African American woman performing the song “Spanish Rose”, which is all about stereotypes of Latinas. It just seemed very incongruous (though perhaps less so than the 1963 film, with Janet Leigh (!) in a black dye job playing Rosie). Then you have “The Music Man”, set in 1912, but clearly showing several African American, Asian and Latino characters as denizens of River City, integrated into the predominantly white cast with no comment.

    Nontraditional casting works on the stage, where the suspension of disbelief is required and there’s an acceptance of an innate artiface on the part of the audience. But on film, especially the intimacy of television, the glaring ridiculousness of an integrated cast singing about “Trouble” in River City or the offensiveness of substituting one ethnicity for another as if the sop to multicultural casting made up for acting as if blacks and Latinos are interchangable becomes a lot more difficult to accept.

    I had been performing the mental equivalent of these Disney musicals; accepting and being aware of the historical limitations, deprivations and dangers a person like me would face if inserted into some of these narratives, but steamrolling right over that by substituting some fictional multicultural paradise where no one noticed and race didn’t matter. I’ve had to do some heavy mental lifting to divest myself of some of the mental boulders I’ve carried to try to make my nostalgic interests make more sense than just me succumbing to a privileged, Eurocentric view of history.

    I haven’t given up my passions, but I have broadened them and deepened them by trying to understand more broadly what was going on in the relevant cultures, looking at the experiences of people of color and other echelons of society besides the white and wealthy, and incorporating interests in non-European countries and communities at times contemporary to the periods that most interest me. I am a product of my time and culture, and I do believe I have to right to hold what interests I choose, and I don’t have to surrender those to the scrutiny of others just because I am a woman of color. However, I do owe that level of scrutiny to myself, and to be more discerning and thoughtful about why the things I find compelling work on me and what that says about me and my place in not only the past that intrigues me, but the present and future I am trying to create in a more conscious and socially aware way.

  102. RCHOUDH wrote:

    To me a parallel can be drawn between people who long for an idealized past, and people (mainly Westnerners) who travel to foreign non Western countries and come back with an idealized picture of that country, culture, and its people without having really lived the lives of the inhabitants. For example I’ve heard many people claiming that their trips to India resulted in them becoming more spiritual and that they admire the “simplicity” of lives that Indians lead, especially the poor. I remember one person saying that Indian children seem to laugh more easily than Western children because their lives were so “simple”. This idealized view about others doesn’t take into account the tremendous difficulties they find themselves in on an everyday basis, which majority of Westerners never experience (low wage back breaking work, inadequate food and nutrition, absence of waste disposal and modern day technologies). I’m starting to think this is no different from the nostalgia some have for the past.

  103. Asianlawyer wrote:

    I have to say though. I don’t think Paul Krugman’s nostalgia for the economic egalitarianism of the 1950s is rooted in the ignorance or white washing of racism. His analysis of the 1950s is rooted in a purely economic and class-based view of the post war era. In fact in his book, the Conscience of a Liberal he gives major time to describing the racial injustice of the time and the concurrent struggle against this injustice. The 1950s and 1960s were much more egalitarian economically than today mostly due to the fact that we had higher marginal income tax rates and a much more progressive tax system. It was also the era in the United States when labor unions were the strongest. That is what Krugman is nostalgic for, not Jim Crow. In fact African Americans did make major economic and political progress during this era. Outside the South, the New Deal helped many black folks and bought many Northern blacks to the Democratic Party. While wages were lower for non-whites during this era while poverty was higher, in pure material terms, things were improving thanks to government activism during the post war era. In fact a more economically secure black population in the North was one of the spurs for the civil rights movement across the US. The economic egalitarianism of the post-war era is something we should try to bring back, for all Americans.

  104. Wendi Muse wrote:

    wow, everyone…i am seriously impressed. for a post i didn’t invest a ton of time or energy in, the responses have been amazing and incredibly insightful, adding a ton of depth to this piece. so …thanks :-)

  105. MeiTai wrote:

    CCCC:

    One boy, who was/is Korean and apparently very observant, asked me who I was. I told him, and he said without missing a beat, “but you’re black!” as if my skin color took away from the entire friggin’ costume.

    Interesting — and I wonder what was your classmate’s costume? If his character didn’t portray someone Asian, it’s interesting that he didn’t see the irony in chiding you for dressing like Audrey Hepburn.

  106. notso wrote:

    I didn’t read through all of the comments so apologies if I’m repeating anyone’s point.

    This post is great. I’ve never actually thought about its point in particular, but it reminds me of something that frequently disturbs me, and that is the race politics of historical movies made in the present. So often, these films that glorify an era past seem like an opportunity for an all-white cast to get together and appear on a screen with no need to apologize for the lack of diversity. These films seem to say, “look how lovely and fancy and dramaturgical and WHITE we are!” and revel in it. The segregation that these films entail not only reiterates colonial histories and the legitimacy thereof, but it reinforces and perpetuates the white supremacy that exists today, at every level from the film industry itself to pop culture to society in general.

    As for reflecting on my own naive nostalgia, I am once again made aware of my blind, white privilege. Though I grew up in a white town as a Brazilian immigrant, and am biracial, my white appearance allowed me to identify with white European characters as much as the next person. It’s funny that people brought up Anne of Green Gables, because I too loved her and got to play her in the Anne of Green Gables musical that my school put on. I remember my disappointment looking in the mirror with my hair dyed red and seeing auburn and olive skin instead of carrot-orange and freckled white. It was probably the first time I realized I wasn’t exactly white.

    The point about other types of privilege in good-old-day nostalgia is also very interesting. I get very frustrated with the rampant heterosexism in all of history, but I also love seeing the obvious homosociality and homoeroticism in old films and books that no longer exist now that homosexuality is out in the open and heterosexuality so obsessively policed and confined as a result. I know it’s non-fiction, but, girly action in the Diary of Anne Frank anyone?

  107. notso wrote:

    Oh and another thing!

    This all reminds me of an episode of this show I used to watch when I was a kid. I think it was called “California Dreams” and it was by the same people who made “Saved by the Bell.” In this one episode (I’m fuzzy on the details because this was like 15 years ago so I’m just drawing from memory) they get an assignment to research and write a report on their ancestors, and the one black kid makes up this elaborate story about how his great-great-grandfather was some kind of African king or something, and then he later admits that he was ashamed because everyone else had cool ancestors but his ancestors were slaves. And then I’m pretty sure I remember him reclaiming that and writing his REAL report about his real great-great-grandfather, without shame but with definite gravity.

    I can’t remember it well enough to know now whether or not the show handled the subject well, but I think it’s great that they handled it at all! I always wonder (because I didn’t go to high school here) how teachers in North America handle history and literature in their classrooms when the dominant discourse completely denies the complex reality of colonialism and racism today. Doesn’t stuff like that California Dreams episode (haha) happen all the time?

  108. InternationalAdoptee wrote:

    I’m so relieved to see that someone else was obsessed with Anne of Green Gables. I’ve been obsessed with the history of Denmark for as far back as I can remember and I still am though I’ve widened my horizons to include other NW European countries. I conveniently leave out the fact that the average person through most of Denmark’s history never went abroad, or even outside a 15 mile radius of their birth town. They certainly didn’t travel half way around the globe to adopt babies. I wouldn’t have lived in Denmark! *Shock!* There’s no way I would’ve ended up in Denmark neither as a baby nor as an adult.

    Thailand and its history is probably as fascinating as any other country’s history. I’m just not interested. I’m interested in Danish history, western history and in my adoptive parents genealogy. They’re not superior to me. It’s just the way my interests have turned out and these are the areas that I historically tend to romanticize.

    I attended a very liberal private school for the first six years so my features, complexion and long black hair was never an issue in casting. I had a friend who was adopted from Zanzibar who was obsessed with Chinese medieval history and was encouraged to learn all about it. In our school plays it was very natural that there were black Chinese medieval empresses and female Asian viking raiders:-D

  109. RCHOUDH wrote:

    @notso

    Oh wow I didn’t know California dreams had an episode like that! They copied that episode from one made earlier in Saved by the Bell. In the SBTB one Zack does an oral report on his Native American ancestry. It was one of their best episodes because it showed how he was initially frustrated with the report because he never knew much about Native American culture and history, let alone his own ancestors. Then he meets a “wise” old Native mentor (who I think bore a striking resemblance to David Carradine!) The man not only teaches Zach about his tribe’s history, but also about his tribal chief ancestor (and also gifts Zack with a Native made bracelet). After Zack makes a dramatic presentation of his report (with Native dress and everything) and scores an A, he finds out his Native friend passed away. It was one of my favorite episodes and I thought it did a good job of presenting different histories at once (we also find out Screech’s ancestors were Italian, and Jesse’s ancestors were slaveowners which leads Jesse’s angst and attempts to smother Lisa with love and friendship due to her shame). You’re right it’s normally not expected for these shows to deal with these issues at all in such as non melodramatic manner.

  110. Jackie wrote:

    Great topic. I’m a big Edith Wharton fan since the movie “The Age of Innocence”, and I also like the Henry James film adaptions. Sometimes I think of what it would be like to live in “old New York” without taking my being a black woman into consideration. Whoops!

    I figure that at least the authors show the limitations inherent in being a woman, even a wealthy white one, so that’s something.

  111. perpetual explosion wrote:

    I’m always crazy for historical fiction, and sometimes imagine myself living in those eras, but even as a white male, I end up having to re-imagine myself as wealthy, neurologically typical and physically healthy. Essentially, I don’t imagine myself there, but rather invent a character who possessed aspects of my personality.

    My problem my irrational love of anything set during feudalism, both in Europe and elsewhere. Logically, I know that the feudal era was filled with squalor and violence, bandits roamed the countryside, the peasants were constantly on the brink of starvation, the knights were little more than armed thugs who saw absolutely nothing wrong with crapping in their armor for the servants to clean out later, the Church was insanely corrupt, and the kings and princes were brutal military dictators, but I’m still drawn to it for some reason.

  112. Jackie wrote:

    I don’t know if anyone watches True Blood, but there was a thread here on the season 1 episode where Tara (a black woman) asks Bill (a Louisiana vampire born in the 1830s who fought for the south in the Civil War during his mortal life) if he had owned slaves.

    I also found it interesting that Sookie’s grandma (a 70-something woman who would have experienced a good 30 years of Jim Crow segregation from the white side) basically acted as a second mother to Tara and showed no personal prejudice , but still referred to the Civil War as The War of Southern Independence and ran a Confederate history society.

    It’s a nice example of this topic and I was pleasantly surprised that the show “went there”.

  113. sandeep wrote:

    well… i dont know. see you’re referring to the history of america specifically, but branch it out to global communities and you might find brown skinned folk doing a little better than you’d described. take indians ( who were also banned from the states for a span of about 2 decades ). sure, british rule etc, but indians had their chance ruling themselves too. im sure every race in that way has its own moment of glory. hell, before the invention of mass-transportation, we were a hell of alot more isolated as a species. pockets of people here n there. relatively more homogenous. so just take your pick of any of these isolated incidents of human advancement. societies of greatness. and i’d be saying this with nothing but my own reckoning to back me up, that whatever race you may subscribe to & identify as, that there’s something warm & fuzzy to hearken back to and enjoy.

    and as far as the practice of enjoying ones past goes? well i’d go so far as to say that it’s a ingrained human thing to question oneself, eventually ones origin, then trace it back in history, the history books we have provided today of course are selective histories, but they do the job for the mostpart, where google fills the gaps. my main point is the history of america is not the history of the world. there may be themes repeated: war, immigration, etc. but its a unique spot of dirt with its own unique set of events. if you’re not satisfied with america’s history ( many people aren’t even satisfied with americas PRESENT ) then perhaps you should look into the history of another region that perhaps more favors your acestry. go ahead, history more often than not proves equality amongst all races by the bevy of civilizations from all races and regions represented in history books and ruins.

  114. Caitiecat wrote:

    Just a quick one, wanted to say how much I’d loved this, and that you, Ms. Muse, have served as a muse with this: Not-stalgia, at Shakesville. Thanks for your thoughtful work!

  115. Ccc wrote:

    @MeiTai He wasn’t wearing a costume. He was too cool? haha