Interracial Dating: Black Women Aren’t the Only Foes of Interracial Romance

by Special Correspondent Nadra Kareem

Do black women regard interracial relationships as a personal affront?

I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen this issue raised. On June 2, it surfaced once more when blogger the Black Snob posted a thought-provoking piece on those who oppose interracial relationships called “Sometimes the White Girl (Or Guy) Isn’t about You (Unconventional Wisdom).”

The post begins with the Snob recalling her days in school when two black girls unsuccessfully try to jump a white classmate who’s dating a black guy. Throughout the piece, the Snob not only questions the rationale the two girls used to justify beating up their white peer but the rationale that black women in general draw upon to oppose interracial relationships. Are black women being fair when they assume that a black guy dating a white chick is a sell-out? And how do the insecurities of black women in Western society factor into their objection of interracial relationships?

She writes, “Some black guys are going to date white girls. Attempting to beat up the white girls will not turn that tide. …You’d be better off learning to love yourself than becoming mired in bitterness and hate over that thing that’s not really about you.”

The Snob’s points are valid. However, after reading her piece and others like it, I find myself wondering why black women are constantly portrayed as if they are only ones who react negatively to interracial relationships. As a black woman who has been involved with a white guy for more than a year, I’ve faced my fair share of hostility from white women, and some Asian ones, who seem resentful of my partnership. None of these women have disapproved of my relationship aloud, but they don’t really have to. Their body language says enough.

They do double-takes when they learn my boyfriend and I are together. They give me the side-eye or attempt to look me up and down when they think I won’t notice. Others have just been aloof or exhibited general bitchiness when I try to make conversation with them. I know that if I am having such experiences other black women involved with non-black men are as well. Yet, black women continue to bear the onus for the hostility that black-white interracial couples face.

The sad thing about this to me is that the reasons a black woman might object to an interracial relationship are wholly different from the reasons a white woman might. Black women worry how the black community will be affected overall if, say, the most successful black men find themselves with white women again and again. They worry about the effect interracial relationships have on low marriage rates in the black community. In contrast, when I encounter white women who cop an attitude upon discovering that my boyfriend and I are an item, their hostility comes from a very different place—a place of superiority.

It’s as if they are asking themselves, “Why on earth would he be with a black girl when I’m here?” Adding insult to injury is that it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m more or less physically attractive than these women. That I’m black alone makes me inferior in their eyes. It comes down to this: women accustomed to being prizes in Western society are thrown for a loop when they see a white man who’s chosen a different option. As ridiculous as it sounds, their behavior reminds me of the Valley girl at the beginning of the “Baby Got Back” record who says in disgust, “She’s so black.” Black women aren’t supposed to be desirable, so when an eligible white male partners with a black woman, it’s not surprising that some people are going to react with shock or hostility.

I discussed this issue with a black friend several months ago. Then, she said of white women, “You know they’re threatened by us.”

Sure, I know that some white women may be intimated by black women they view in stereotypes—loud, overbearing and aggressive. But I did not think that white women were threatened by black women in the romantic realm. Is this akin to white men being jealous of the fabled size of black men’s penises? Are white women worried that they can’t compete with black women sexually? I don’t know. Yet, this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this issue raised. Years ago when I was reading a profile on Oprah Winfrey, the writer suggested that the talk show queen wouldn’t have so many white women fans if she were more sexually threatening. In short, if Oprah were slender and alluring instead of the woman white ladies bring their problems to, she wouldn’t be as successful.

I wonder how valid this statement is. I do know that, on the surface, a few of the hostile white women I’ve encountered have no problem with black women. They do volunteer work involving the black community and are eager to sympathize with the woes of black women. But, upon learning that my boyfriend chose to date me, they are taken aback. Rather than being a rung below them on the social ladder—someone in need of their help—a black woman had effectively become their competitor and, thus, their equal.

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Comments

Fiqah wrote:

It’s as if they are asking themselves, “Why on earth would he be with a black girl when I’m here?” Adding insult to injury is that it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m more or less physically attractive than these women. That I’m black alone makes me inferior in their eyes.

Nail on the head, Ms. Kareem. Having experienced and witnessed this phenomenon I have jokingly deemed it the “HER?!” Effect. (Last year, discussing the silence of White feminists about offensive media coverage of Michelle Obama offline with a group of friends, I suggested that the “HER?!” Effect lay at the heart of a lot of it. )

I’m always amazed at how the real-life playing-out of desirability dynamics so often defies the social narrative, and how people will go out of their way to reinforce the “truth” of said narrative.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 8:35 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

My husband (taiwanese) thinks that some asian women give him “why aren’t you at home playing dungeons and dragons” dirty looks but I’ve never noticed it. I haven’t noted any flack from black men, although I don’t really pay attention to how other people are looking at me.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 8:46 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:

I dont think any gender of any racial/ethnic group has a hold of this fear.

I am a white American married to a Saudi Arab female. We get it from all sides, not only from a racial viewpoint, but also from an ethnic view point., sometimes even a religius angle as well.

We think of it as ignorance and insecurity on the part of who ever has the problem.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 8:57 am ¶
China Blue wrote:

Thanks for this, Nadra. You’re spot on – at least, this has been my experience.

I wonder, sometimes: do white women feel, at least when they see white men and black women (and Asian women) together, that ‘their men’ are being stolen? That’s a genuine question, btw. I’m curious to know.

When I started dating my now ex-fiance (the first white guy I’d ever dated up to that point) I was girding myself for funny looks/comments from black men – which I got, but not nearly as many as from white women.

In fact, I’ll tell you the kind of reactions I get when I date a white man: a black guy might come up to my boyfriend to congratulate him on his ‘choice’ (making me feel more like a juicy steak than a person selected on merit, but that’s a different conversation) ; a white woman is likely to give me a quick ‘up-down’ appraisal, be a little distant, a little ‘off’ with me, perhaps even a little bitchy.

You say:
“…when I encounter white women who cop an attitude upon discovering that my boyfriend and I are an item, their hostility comes from a very different place—a place of superiority [...] Rather than being a rung below them on the social ladder—someone in need of their help—a black woman had effectively become their competitor and, thus, their equal.”

Yup, that makes sense to me. I feel as if there’s a subtle, perhaps unconscious, attempt to put me in my ‘place’… wherever that is!

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:19 am ¶
Xey wrote:

Interesting piece. On a slightly different note, my good friend and I were JUST talking last night about whether or not black men get upset about seeing black women with non-black (particularly white) men. I’d like to see something on that as well.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:24 am ¶
Thom wrote:

I confess this confounds me…I kind of understand the hostility within non-white communities. There is so much tied up in (American) history in relation to whites and power and oppression, and for some POC there seems to be a feeling of “you are stealing from our pool” that while I don’t agree with the notion…I understand it. But white women? I just can’t see a reasonable point of view on that. I am sorry you have had to face with that.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:26 am ¶
Lisa J wrote:

Very true. I got that nasty look a few times when hanging with a close white male friend. The kicker is both times he accused me of being the cause of the situation. Once it was because I was talking “too loud” we were at football game and people were staring. Of course you are loud it is loud there! They were staring ’cause, it was just the two of us. We didn’t talk for awhile after that one b/c I was really hurt. Then another time he swore I knocked into a woman’s chair, who I didn’t bump into but he thought it must have been that cause she gave me the stank eye. I told him it was b/c I was with him. That time he seemed to get it.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:44 am ¶
Just A Thought wrote:

My first, and very brief, experience in interracial dating (a few dates with a very cute and very blond fellow intern outside of Atlanta), was peppered with hostile stares from black men and white women alike. I noticed the stares from the BM more because I was more sensitive to it.

I find the assumed superiority of some WW amusing, because I have always felt that if someone wants someone of that particular hue, then they definitely don’t want me, and I shouldn’t waste my time with them. I’ve had more struggle overcoming feeling threatened by Latina, bi/multiracial women, and some asian women (mostly south asian) because while the skin tone may be similar to mine, the fact that some possess features that more closely align to a european standard of beauty than mine plays into some of the old insecurities that I’ve had. I’m not the only black woman that I know who has had a black man either insist that she must be mixed with something and/or show visible disappointment at her monoethnic background.

Anyway, after all that rambling and whatnot, I think people of all colors struggle with the power dynamics present in this society, and the internalized beliefs and biases that come with those structures. But it does everyone a disservice to act as if black women are the only ones with a problem.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:44 am ¶
D.C. Lurker wrote:

Interesting piece, Nadra. Thank you. I haven’t experienced this kind of “hateration” yet, though I have found that some people are more intrusive, almost to the point of “where’s your-home-training” rudeness, when I’m out on dates with non-black men. I remember two former coworkers, white women who *never* talked to me at the office, happened to see me with a gentleman and proceeded to “join” our table. I politely rebuffed them. We were at a bar at the time, and I found their behavior intrusive, like they had the “right” to enter our space. They sat across the room the rest of the night, staring. We left, after I tired of feeling like we were at the circus. I also got the strangest looks later when this guy accompanied me to a company event; it was like they’d seen Sasquatch or something. Shortly thereafter, my supervisor, someone I had clashed with because of his sexism, trumped up a really crappy way to push me out of the company.

I can never prove it, but I think my supervisor’s tipping point was seeing me with this attractive white man, who was Jewish to boot. Some people just aren’t ready for the paradigm shift, but their myopia won’t stop me from dating whomever I damn well please. In that respect, I agree that black women shouldn’t shoulder the responsibility for carrying the interracial relationship “ooga-booga” stick. After all my friends started marrying and having babies, both black and white, I had to make a choice. If a brother comes along, fabulous; if he doesn’t, I’ll still have options. I appreciate being able to choose, and I refuse to let someone else — black, white, or otherwise — attempt to strip that from me.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:47 am ¶
N wrote:

From a book I read on slavery and race issues, I paraphrase

[Every white plantation owner's wife knows the father of every mulatto child on OTHER plantations but has no idea where they are coming from on theirs.]

I had a great great grandfather who had his mulatto son sleep in the bed with him and his wife as a footwarmer. It was something that infuriated everyone. My mother hates it because it was demeaning. But the white relatives hated it because he let his non-white child sleep in bed with him and his wife, who was not the child’s mother. Black ppl hated it because he was getting preferential treatment. Same greatgreat grandfather’s brother left the family land to my greatgrandfather and is brothers. The father couldn’t do it because his wife would have keeled over had her husband left the family land to his bastard son with a slave.

When my grandfather’s mother was married, it was arranged by her father and grandfather, she had to marry another mixed person.

Back to the white woman.

White women in the US have historically had many reasons to see black women as sexual threats. What woman would be able to sit by happily as her husband was making babies and keeping other households with black women Doing so openly. So black women were not just sleeping with (though not always, if ever, by choice) white women’s husbands, but not even discreetly.Slap in the face.

Another paraphrase from said book- White women in during slavery were put on pedestals, but were the loneliest women in the world.

There were women who were married to white men but the man had a slave wife and family, and in some cases LIVED with this family and not with his wife. They educated their children, sent them to Europe to escape slavery. There were cases when the marriage with the appropriate wife was a marriage on paper only.

So there is resentment. White women were put on pedestals, said to be the most beautiful things in the world, practically worshipped. But the evidence pointed to the fact that plenty of white men found African and then “black” women very attractive. That they sometimes even found them preferable to white women (maybe not in general, but whiteness did not trump everything else when a man was choosing between women). Men paid big money to go to Quadroon and Octoroon balls, to find mistresses. Mistresses who existed only because white men had already found other black women attractive.

And again, because in some cases there were marriages. In some cases the men lived their lives in the slave quarters, educated their children, left them property, the white woman couldn’t even cling to the belief that at least she had the respect and th e love, and the black woman was one only for sexual purposes.

So there is a lot going on here.

My 2 cents.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:48 am ¶
Xay wrote:

Many black men that I know are hostile to the idea of black women dating white men because they feel that a white man is incapable of loving a black woman – it is always about the fetish. They also feel that it reinforces the white man’s superiority. Yes, I know what this says about the black men that I know. They see absolutely no problem with black men dating white women.

When I did date a white man, the most interesting reaction was from our mutual friends who all seemed to be shocked that HE would date a black woman – although I could never get them to explain exactly why they thought it was so unlikely of him. I suspect that it was because he was a clean cut Midwestern boy, not a baggy pants wearing, jive talking, chain swinging Eminem wanna be.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:52 am ¶
Blackwasp19 wrote:

My wife is Tawianese-American and I am African-American. Walking through certain communities or through the mall can be interesting experiences. We get it from both the Asian-American and African-American communities. Generally it seems that the Asian-American men and African-American women are the ones giving us the hardest time. Which statistically makes sense. They have the lowest marriage rates of any other race/gender cross tabulation. Often when walking past African-American women they give of a sense of “betrayer” to me and the sense us hussy to my wife. The opposite occurs when we walk past Asian-American men.

The white female perspective is an interesting one. I think when they begin dating interracially – especially dating African-Americans a sense of ownership/entitlement forms from their socially privileged status over black women. I don’t think it is always cognizant, it simply emerges. I experienced this both when dating a white female who expressed her entitlement often even before we dated and from dating a black female who felt she got a lot of “crap” from the white females who were someone interested in me (or generically black men).

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:56 am ¶
N wrote:

I live in a city that is over 50% black, and the part of town I live and work in is over 98% black. Many of the blacks are also latino.

I have African American friends and neighbors who are very resentful that I don’t seem to date African American men. It doesnt matter that my husband and my ex husband are, to my eyes, black. One is creole and one is Puerto Rican. I date almost exclusively Afro-Latin men, with the occasional white Latino. They are pissed off and ask, “So when does a brother get a turn”?

As if they are ENTITLED a “turn”, with any woman. As if my living where I do obligates me to date them.

I date men who share a latin cultural heritage, share the same religious background and often the same family type. My reasons arent because I hate anyone, its because I feel comfortable with people who understand me and my particular cultural heritage. Who eat the food I eat, like the music I like, go to the same sort of church.

But if you have any kink in your hair, they OWN you and you are a traitor if you don’t date men they consider appropriate partners. Hell, you dont even need to be VERY black, I know African American men who hate Rosie Perez and J Lo for not marrying black men. For real.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:58 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Just A Thought:

I’m not the only black woman that I know who has had a black man either insist that she must be mixed with something and/or show visible disappointment at her monoethnic background.

Checking in for the “Sorry, Bruh – JUST ‘Regular’ Black” crew. We need to start a support group or something.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:04 am ¶
N wrote:

@Just A Thought

I’m one of the borderline women. Its hard all over. You aren’t worried about white women but lighter black women, and other non-black brown women.

In the dating pool for my skin color, the competition includes white women. So while many women find me threatening and are mad because they think no one wants them but wants one like me, to some extent I’m in a different dating pool. And the men who have a preference for my coloring and type, date from a pool that includes white women.

And white women? The brunettes and redheads and brown eyed women still have to compete with the blue eyed blondes.

We’re all under pressure.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:05 am ¶
Ana wrote:

Yes, there is hostility coming from some white women but that has nothing to do with a sense of superiority or entitlement.

Rather, just like black women, it has to do with stereotypes about them that hurt and are not true at all. Men of all races (including some White men) believe that White women are:

1) Not thin enough/fat
2) Not obedient/subservient
3) Not domestic or feminine
4) Too loud and obnoxious
5) Binge drinkers
6) Sluts/Whores
7) Not exotic
Not educated
9) and the list could go on and on and on and on……

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:06 am ¶
GM wrote:

Nice ! It’s always interesting to “see” things from the vantage points of various women. There were MANY things I hadn’t taken time to ponder about, which made the ready exceedingly interesting.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:11 am ¶
evd wrote:

Read “The Wind Done Gone”

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:11 am ¶
Quixotess wrote:

Adding insult to injury is that it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m more or less physically attractive than these women.

So, what, exactly what measurements are you using here to determine whether you’re “more or less” physically attractive than other women? Are these reactions from fat women more audacious because, hello, you’re *clearly* thinner than they are? Is being subject to racism by disabled women just extra-insulting?

To see something like objective beauty standards dropped into a social critique. Motherfucker, it makes me mad!

Mod Note – Nadra said nothing of the sort in her piece. If you are confused by what she meant, ask a question, don’t automatically assume that she means something sizeist or ableist. – LDP

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:13 am ¶
Blanc2 wrote:

I think it’s more complicated than the simple “superiority complex” model of your thesis. What do WW do when they try to enhance their looks? They tan. They curl their hair. They get lip implants, or butt implants. In other words, they seek to acquire physical features that BW have naturally. Thus, though WW may harbor a sense of superiority, I think this is in most cases unconscious. What is conscious is a sense of inferiority, a realization of the beauty of BW, which realization strikes home, hard, as they see more and more WM entering into serious relationships with BW.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:25 am ¶
Thea wrote:

I’m glad you brought this up! Discussion of interracial relationships are very much dominated by how black women feel about black men dating white women, and it is a lot wider than that. I think distrust and anger can come from all different sides.

I also think it is problematic how women are always at the centre of this conversation – as if women are the only ones who have issues with IRs. That seems a bit misogynist to me to suggest that only women have the issue – seems to reinforce other ideas about women being catty or bitchy. Of course it is ironic but not unusual that we reproduce sexist ideas in trying to talk about racism.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:27 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

[Every white plantation owner’s wife knows the father of every mulatto child on OTHER plantations but has no idea where they are coming from on theirs.]

@N: Awesome quote.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:27 am ¶
Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

When I’ve been spotted with a white man, I have gotten hostile reactions from Brown AND Black guys (even though I’m not black). One black friend called me a sell-out when he found out I was dating a white guy once, but he was really drunk, so…

I SOOO agree with this:

In contrast, when I encounter white women who cop an attitude upon discovering that my boyfriend and I are an item, their hostility comes from a very different place—a place of superiority.

It’s as if they are asking themselves, “Why on earth would he be with a black girl when I’m here?” Adding insult to injury is that it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m more or less physically attractive than these women. That I’m black alone makes me inferior in their eyes.

I’ve always thought that, too.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:35 am ¶
Chris Diaz wrote:

What follows is a gross generalizaion of a point I think is significant. First, I agree that the men of color with white women are often viewed as sellouts. But, I think something that really cuts deep for women of color is the sense of hopelessness that can arise. I think,, consciously or subconsciously, women of color sometimes feel like, “damn, white women dominate the beauty shows and magazines, are represented well in the media, and generally have privilege in all areas of society, and now they want our men, too?

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:50 am ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

I was definitely at a college party dancing with a WM friend and I got wierd looks from both a Black guy and his white gf. I wasnt sure what that was about.
I have this funny thought that we are all organised in teams. And each sexual partner is seen as an acquisition. For example the Black male team may want to gain other nice women from other places but still not lose their own nice women, so Seal gets a high five for bringing in Heidi Klum and Kerry Washington gets called a sell-out. Apply this model to any race and gender….lol

I think that as a Black woman I underestimated what a tough place the pedestal can be for White women. It is not at all a secure perch so I found it quite startling when they would get competitve with me. The truth is in this era I dont think any one type of woman is the standard anymore- Having been exposed to different types of women, men sometimes want an amalgam of all the hot features: A Black woman’s ass and lips, an Indian woman’s hair, a white woman’s boobs skin and eye color, an Asian woman’s almond eyes etc….In the end we are all basically screwed cos no-one has it all going on…

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:59 am ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

*correction*

*so I do not find it startling when they get competitive with me*

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 11:00 am ¶
Morgan wrote:

My two cents:

I think most women, of all races, feel something when they see a man of their race dating outside the race. Obviously, this plays out differently among the different groups, but I think as women, we are all taught early on that we are not enough AND that there is a man shortage and all women are competition. If we see a man with a woman of X race, we worry “are X women more desirable than me?” If we see a man with a woman with Y hairstyle or Z pant size, we worry that Y and Z are the desired and we better get on it. I don’t blame us, we are up against a lot of self-hatred inducing forces in the media, in our families (moms went through it too) and even with out men.

So that’s what I see. The goal is to keep this insecurity in check and act right, despite any momentary fears.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 11:12 am ¶
Just A Thought wrote:

@ Fiqah:

That support group is a good idea.

@ N:

We are definitely all under pressure. It’s gets easy to forget that when you view being passed over by particular men (or they actually have the gall to inform you of their preferences, SMH) because of skin color, hair texture, keenness of features, native language, etc., as some indictment of your desireability. There are other people out there who don’t have those hangups.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 11:12 am ¶
Jeremy wrote:

To the specific point re:Oprah – Doesn’t Tyra Banks have a sizable white-woman viewership?

On a related note, this reminded me of the MTV True Life episode on interracial relationships – remember the white dude dating the (light skinned) black woman? Interestingly, they focused more on the reactions from black men than white women. Might have had something to do with the fact that the couple tended to hang out in predominantly black (rather than white) places.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 11:29 am ¶
Lina wrote:

I’d be really interested to know if many Asian men dating white women face similar reactions, like Celeste gave a nod to up above — either from white men thinking “HIM?!” or Asian women thinking “Shouldn’t you be at home playing D&D…?” Since the genders coded as desirable are reversed there, it’d be interesting to know if the dynamics differ.

Great article!

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 11:44 am ¶
Tracey wrote:

@N (13) : You know, I think it’s the whole ownership of women thing that we see time and time again through race, ethnicity, religion, and class. A man will have no problem dating a woman of a different race but feels he is entitled to exert power over the women of his own race. It’s hard to explain but it’s about exertion of power over women and the ability to date a woman of a particular race/religion/class/ethnicity is a way of demonstrating power over that group.
So it is perfectly acceptable for a rich man to date/sleep with all the poor women that he wants but a woman of a higher class can not do the same without loosing major social status and being looked on as trash. I think the same thing can be said of race.
When some black men see a woman theyview as black with a white or non-black man theymay feel like it is a slap in the face to them. They may feel like they have historically been able to play the protector/owner role when it comes to black women and may be resentful. A white man dating a black woman is to some of them may be no more than a white man “using” a black woman and showing superiority over black men. So these women may be viewed as sell-outs b/c they are allowing their bodies to be colonized by whites as oppose to remaining the property of black men. A black man dating outside the race is fine b/c he is exerting power over another race.
I would like to know if those comments are from men who would feel fine dating outside the race. B/c if so, it seems like they defiantly fall within that camp. Part of me doesn’t blame them b/c there is historical truth to men of higher classes “using” women of lower classes. But it upsets me that some men have no problem with the women as property mentality in and of itself, but are just mad that they can’t control those women. So yeah, they probally do see themselves as owning certain women.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 11:48 am ¶
Penni Brown wrote:

@Blanc2

“though WW may harbor a sense of superiority, I think this is in most cases unconscious. ”

i think the superiority is front of mind, not unconscious.

acknowledging a black woman’s beauty is ALOT different than accepting that they are your equal.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 12:11 pm ¶
Joy wrote:

Hmm also about Oprah – screw whatever writer said she wasn’t sexy.

Women are conditioned to be both insecure and haters. I don’t know why. If the problem isn’t race, it’ll be skin shade, hair length/style, body type, height, weight, clothes, car, language, job, glasses, little annoying dog – something! You’ll just assume there’s something she’s got that you don’t (and that’s why he wants her) and hate on it. Race is just one of the most touchy/sensitive examples of the large phenomenon of women hating on other women.
(Parents with young daughters, please attempt to fix this problem early on.)
Don’t know what the deal is with men and interracial relationships, but pretty sure the deal with women is just one manifestation of a much larger problem.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 12:14 pm ¶
Natalie M. wrote:

As a black woman who has been involved in an interracial relationship with a white male for the past five years I can honestly say that I relate to the article.

I get the stares, the looks of disbelief when it comes to light that “I’m with him”… in the beginning it used to bother me but now I have the mentality where I just don’t give a damn.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 12:25 pm ¶
N wrote:

@Quixotess

I caught myself on that one yesterday. A complaint black women have is that black men will “scrape the bottom of the barrel” and choose a white woman over a black woman when the white woman is clearly “inferior”. Now, I won’t even get into all the reasons why one would say “inferior”, and I won’t say it isn’t a valid point.
A woman who is intelligent and educated and independent but who finds that men who claim to want these things, will overlook that if the woman possessing said virtues is black and the one not is white, gets pissed.

HOWEVER, I did say- Listen, so what if she is a fat chick. So why is he wrong for being with a fat white chick? Now Im fat intolerant? This is in NO way meant to be ugly, but with the obesity levels in the black and latino communities, if said black man were with one of those women, its likely she’d be overweight as well.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 1:25 pm ¶
KXB wrote:

Perceiving competitors in dating is always going to provide interesting stories. In my case, when I was dating a black woman a couple of years ago (my family is from India) – the reaction we got from different groups would vary not just by race and sex, but by age. Black men in my age group were not overtly hostile, but they would really try to chat up my GF right in front of me, as if trying to demonstrate that they could take her from me anytime they wanted. Older black men, 50 and over, were cool with it. Many of them may have had daughters, and figured as long as I treat my GF well, they didn’t seem to care about my color.

Most Indian women never paid much attention to me in the dating arena. But when I picked up my GF one time in a bank lobby, where she was chatting with an Indian woman who worked there, and she introduced me, I definitely noticed a “double-take”. Granted, I get mistaken for other ethnicities, so until this teller heard my name, she may not have known I was Indian.

But while that was just a few seconds, and easily forgotten, the worst experience was one time we went to a high end Indian restaurant. The original place we wanted to go was packed, so I suggested another place about half a mile away. The place was packed, and we were told it would be about a 20 minute wait. That turned into 45 minutes. A number of times I went up to the maitre d’ and asked how much longer. This young Indian woman kept repeating that it would be a few more minutes. Maybe I was just looking for trouble, but it sure seemed other groups were getting seated ahead of us.

Both of these women were American born Indians, just like me. They probably have been on the receiving end of unwelcome stares, so I expected better from them.

However, there may have been something else. My GF was a fairly light-skinned black woman, whereas the two Indian women in question were darker. It could be that given all the grief that Indian women get over color, it could be they thought, ‘What?! Not enough that we have to worry about light-skinned Indian women, white women, and Asian women. Now light-skinned black women are competing with us?”

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 1:30 pm ¶
Mary wrote:

And white women? The brunettes and redheads and brown eyed women still have to compete with the blue eyed blondes.

We’re all under pressure.

True. It’s worth remembering that most white women don’t live up to the mythical white woman beauty standard either, despite what the media likes to show.

To the degree that white women are resentful, I wonder if it is from the ones who have spent SO much time and SO much effort trying to live up to what they are told they should be… only to see a woman of color waltz in, break the supposed beauty rules, and still get a man. It’s like “Yeah, all that stuff you’ve been basing your self-worth on? Not so important after all.” I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m agreeing with or justifying this reaction. I just suspect it’s out there.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 1:32 pm ¶
Lisa MB wrote:

I’ve gotten very little reaction from black men to me being with white men, but I remember the one overt response. The black guy, who was likely drunk, said, “Hey baby… leave that zero and get with a hero.” But that was the worst of it.

Usually I just got a cold shoulder or stank eye from other black women, but that was enough. So I stopped looking people in the eye when walking down the street. I still avoid eye contact when walking down the street, but now it’s just because that’s what you do in a big city.

I understand that I had what might have looked like a couple of unfair advantages: a larger dating pool (from dating white and black men) and my relatively lighter skin in a world of frequently color-struck black men. But I spent PLENTY of lonely nights in front of the TV too, thank you.

The ownership/obligation thing is what bothers me the most. I know it’s partly the effects of racism intersecting with sexual desire, the corrosion of self-image. But it is possible to take things too personally. N said it perfectly:

“They are pissed off and ask, “So when does a brother get a turn”? ”

That guy/girl dating someone of another race isn’t a merry-go-round — no one gets “a turn” just on principle. S/he doesn’t owe you a date.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 1:34 pm ¶
Pickly wrote:

@ Morgan

From reading the posts here, it seems the pretty much any group of people has a good chunk that will get annoyed when their opposite gender/same race is dating/in a relationship with someone outside that race. (As opposed ot just women, just black females, white males, etc.)

(There haven’t been many posts about how this plays out for homosexuals, though. It seems perhaps for homosexuals things might play out somewhat differently, since there won’t be an imbalance in how much different genders are considered “desirable”, though it is hard to tell without much information to go on.)

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 1:39 pm ¶
TierListE wrote:

I’m in my first longish-term relationship with a white guy, and I’m thinking we’ve either lucked out or we’re just really oblivious (honestly the latter is very probable- we’re both good at not noticing our surroundings at times) but I’ve yet to notice anything too sketchy from, almost anyone in interaction (excepting typical sketchy issues when being the only WoC around him and his white friends) and I’ve caught blessedly few stares.

He says he has noticed some funky looks from a few white women, and I’ve seen some white and PoC groups look at us in a befuddled fashion. Ah, and there was one time in the mall where the white woman in a BM/WF was really staring us down to the point of rudeness for some reason. But luckily for us most outings is non commentable.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 1:47 pm ¶
c.n.edaw wrote:

@Just A Thought:

I’m not the only black woman that I know who has had a black man either insist that she must be mixed with something and/or show visible disappointment at her monoethnic background.

Checking in for the “Sorry, Bruh – JUST ‘Regular’ Black” crew. We need to start a support group or something.

You can add me to the roster too!!

The only thing I can add that I hope won’t further draw the ire of the poster who was upset about the comment about white women feeling superior despite a black woman being obviously more attractive.

I have worked as a professional commerical model which I guess by SOMEONE”s standards meant I was/am more attractive than average as I was usually cast for “pretty girl” ads, etc.

Shampoo, make up, clothing , etc. Yes I am tall and I am thin. Those are my disclaimers, I guess, if those have to be given.

There is almost always an assumed, unspoken idea that even an average white woman is more attractive than a very pretty black girl.

My last boyfriend, who happened to be white, finally broke the news to his mother that we had been dating in an e-mail. Attached to the e-mail was my photo. I will never forget the e mail his mother sent back to him.

It said something to the effect that she could understand why he would find me attractive, but that there were “so many white women out there” that she didnt understand why he would “settle , even if she’s one of the best looking black girls you have ever seen.”

Throughout high school, in a predominately white school where most of the black guys only dated white girls; I think the most crushing blow to my ego on a daily basis was hearing my white female friends describe how pretty I was to someone and then add, “but, you know she’s black” as if that automatically negated or lessened any of my positive attributes…and it certainly always seemed to be a veiled attempt to put me in my place , when say my looks or chances with some guy were being compared to that of another white female– even if in they eyes of asignifigant number of people, on looks alone, that white female and I were not even close to being on the same playing field.

I recently ended a relationship with a white male who cheated on me with a white woman. It got back to me that the ONLY reason she dumped him was because she was so offended that the other woman was
” a black girl.” ( We are in our late 20’s by the way)

She just couldn’t believe her blonde frat boy type boyfriend would have been as or more attracted to me than her despite the fact that she’s not all that attractive–which frankly pissed me off as much as the cheating…but that’s a “woman thing”– NOT a race thing with me.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 2:20 pm ¶
MeeMee wrote:

Thank you for this! I see so many posts all over the place about the BM/WW or the WM/AW interracial experience but I rarely see anything regarding anyone elses experience.

I’m a Black Puerto Rican woman and i’ve dated men of all different backgrounds. I’m married to a white man and it took me awhile to get over the obvious stares we recieve when we are out together, especially living in oakland. I took it really hard when I was accused of being a trader. I found it real funny when the guys who would never would have talked to me to begin with because I was too skinny or didn’t have enough ass (or whatever the stupid excuse was) are all a sudden mad because I ended up being married to who I am married to. but YOU DIDN’T WANT ME ANYWAYS!!!!

Sometimes I still have a twinge of guilt about marrying a white man because I feel like i’m letting a community of people down. Don’t get me wrong…I love my husband so much and couldn’t imagine being with anyone else, but I was always taught to strengthen my roots.

But I am myself guilty of giving a slight side eye to BM/WW relationships. some nerve, right?

(these are just random thrown together thoughts…sorry if it really goes nowhere.)

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 2:38 pm ¶
Aishtamid wrote:

@Abu Sinan –

I think you nailed it. Many people from all backgrounds just feel threatened if one of “their” men or “their” women date out. It’s like a blow to their entitlement and self-esteem. Different groups may have different reasons but it’s always there.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 2:49 pm ¶
ash wrote:

I’m an east asian (Taiwanese) male dating a mixed black/chinese woman. Most people think she’s latina. i live in brooklyn, and i’ve noticed less looks. maybe b/c it’s ny and diversity is prevalent. I’ve noticed more confusion from others than spite/indignity.

for me, a lot of it was contingent on how much I looked for it. After a year I stopped looking for looks and reactions, and for better or worse, I don’t notice them often unless they’re blatant. And usually those folks are people I couldn’t care less about.

i’m also aware that asian men and black women are labeled the most “undesirable” of the group, and I wonder if that mollifies potential offendees.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 2:52 pm ¶
t. allen-mercado wrote:

Yes, yes and more yes. As a Black woman married to a white man for nearly 20 years I have seen the faces of disdain, disbelief, disgust (read: disrespect).

I’ve also heard the cases of Black women who fear for the community and futures of Black families as a whole. Admittedly, I never thought of it that way. I always felt burdened by this; somehow I was betraying some pact by just loving who I love and, wondered if White (and other non-Black) women were upset or angry for the same reasons. They never told, and I never asked…and now I guess I just don’t care. But, if I had to guess, I’d say that it’s about the pact and about privilege, and the expectation that their men would never “go there”.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 3:05 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@ Chris Diaz

I’m a Black male (migrated from West Africa). Now that I have that out of the way, I’ll proceed with my point. You’d be surprised how many people hold the sentiments you so eloquently described in your post about the deep cuts when for example a Black female sees a black male with a non-black female. However, I have big problems even understanding this. One obvious reasons is I grew up in West Africa and the UK so I don’t have the narrative an African-American would have. Second, we all make choices on who we want to mate with and so on. If I as a Black male make a choice to exercise all my options with no one group getting any preferential treatment, how can I then be blamed by a Black female, for example, who has made a choice to pick from only one pool of potential mates? I believe it should be a thing of “as you make your bed so you lie in it”. I DISAGREE with anyone who tells me that my sole purpose here on earth as far as dating goes is to be beholden to one group of women. I don’t have a memorandum of understanding between me and anyone so therefore I owe no one anything. The reverse is most defiantly the case. I don’t believe black women owe me anything and they can sure as hell date whomever. It’s NONE of my business what someone else does. I understand that it can get depressing especially when you see how the media and popular culture generally upholds Caucasian women as the be all and end all. My thing though is so what? Yes, Maxim’s list of 50 most beautiful women on earth list is almost always White women but so what? Are you going to kill yourself cause the list is biased in favor of their fan base who happen to be overwhelmingly white male? Got to love and appreciate yourself first cause if you need that external validation, you’d be asking for all sorts of issues. To summarize, I don’t understand but I have empathy. Oh and that sellout moniker is rubbish. How the heck can I sellout of something I never bought into in the first bloody place?

@Lina

One of my good friends is an American whose parents migrated from Taiwan. He just married his gf of 5 years who happens to be White. I’ve never seen anyone give them the evil eye when I’m around them but then again, I don’t notice such foolishness.

It’s Friday and I’m jamming to Kaskade and Bloc Party.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 3:09 pm ¶
Pheagan wrote:

I’m sorry you have to go through this. I’m white and have dated men of color and got the side-eye, but that is preferable to me than what happens to you for the reasons you outline. In fact, whenever I have got the side-eye or the teeth-sucking or whatever, I haven’t ever felt angry at the person doing it, because I think the reasons it happens are good/understandable.

Something similar happened when I was in Korea. When I did my Visa trip to Japan, I met this fellow teacher, a white guy, and during our conversation he offered he had a girlfriend, and, very tentatively, that she was Korean. And asked if I had a problem with that. I was kind of surprised, and was like, of course not, no, I’m dating a Korean guy right now. And he explained that the white girls in the foreign teacher community have some serious hate for those dudes who date Korean girls, basically because the white guys were taken out of the dating pool and they had no one else to date– seems similar to the “worries about the community” objection to interracial dating.

There is more to it than that, of course. After much more time in Asia I saw all the evils of white guys fetishising Asian girls– but not all of them, and not this guy, date by fetish.

I asked this guy why they don’t just date Korean guys. Ah, well, the problem there is they don’t like Korean guys. And I was like, haha, they can suck it in singledom if they’re gonna be racist, serves them right. But I heard this quite a few times from white girls over there: “I just don’t like Asian guys.” Notice the “just”. It’s like, “leave me alone, let’s not discuss it, take it for face value, please don’t question it more deeply.”

Oh, and not all girls were like this, there were a lot of girls that did date Korean guys. There were two things I didn’t understand about the other ones, though. First, why would you move to a country, the entire population of whom you are not attracted to, for a year if you’re single? Doesn’t compute. Secondly, and I’m not trying to make excuses, but American pop culture actively tears down Asian masculinity. If they are present at all, something will be made of any one of a number of stereotypes. Like in Heroes where they make fun of Ando’s height, even though he’s the exact same height as Peter Petrelli. And for those Asian men that are seen, because they are so often picked for comedic purposes, they aren’t the hottest guys out there. But you would think once you go to Korea, and see actual Asian men, many of whom are super-hot– that your mind would change. I mean, how do you not find Rain attractive?

Point being, these girls had their white superiority with white mean taken away from them, but also implicit in their objection was a racist rejection of a much larger population whom they could date. Although, thanks to these girls, I found it pretty hard to date Korean guys, since most of them believe white girls don’t like them.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 3:12 pm ¶
Lady Di wrote:

Thank you Nadra Kareem for the article.

I also wanted to say I agree with everything everyone said. I think that most of us men women when it comes to dating interracial seems to have the gender racial bias reaction to one another.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 3:20 pm ¶
fredMS wrote:

i hate to sound ignorant but damn, you would think an intelligent woman could care less about whatever ’standards’ women should be held to in today’s society.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:18 pm ¶
MBW wrote:

I know a couple black women who live in Japan and are married to Japanese men (one of them wed to a multi-millionaire.) The amount of hostility from Japanese women they get trumps just about anything I’ve seen in this country, especially since in most cases, the Japanese women assume that my friends don’t speak Japanese and talk about them to their faces.

My partner in crime is white and I’ve definitely gotten the stare down from white women but none of them has ever said anything within earshot.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:30 pm ¶
Eva wrote:

@Blackwasp19 “Generally it seems that the Asian-American men and African-American women are the ones giving us the hardest time. Which statistically makes sense. They have the lowest marriage rates of any other race/gender cross tabulation.”

I’ve often read this, heard this, seen this on TV but no one really explains why that is. Is this something new? How long has this been going on? I’ve heard people say this is due to negative stereotypes black women and Asian men face in the media. Though I do think that is true, I don’t believe it’s the only thing. Physical attraction only lasts a few months, then the relationship becomes real. A fetish isn’t going to last twenty years.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:33 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

It’s interesting here that in all arguments the white guy is the source of conflict that is worth all the real or imagined drama that has been described thus far.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:36 pm ¶
Emmeaki wrote:

Checking in for the “Sorry, Bruh – JUST ‘Regular’ Black” crew. We need to start a support group or something.

Ha ha! I’ll join the support group!

“If Oprah were slender and alluring instead of the woman white ladies bring their problems to, she wouldn’t be as successful.”

This is an interesting theory. By her often being overweight, she’s more “Mammy-like”, and therefore non-threatening.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:53 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

People in general need to pay more attention to who they are personally dating and less attention to others. Mind your own business.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:59 pm ¶
Tonya wrote:

Thank you for writing this. As a black woman who has dated white or latino men before, I’ve experienced this only to be told my white people that it’s all in my head, but when it happens to them by black women, it’s ALWAYS real.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 5:46 pm ¶
Tonya wrote:

Sorry, “told BY white people”

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 5:47 pm ¶
eccentricyoruba wrote:

i live in the UK and i have never heard of situations where black women attacked white women who are in IRRs with black men. i have also never heard of or noticed white women reacting negatively to black women in IRRs.

in my experience, IR couples in the UK tend to be ignored most of the time. i don’t know if that’s because most people are used to them. i hear things are different in London but i don’t live there so i don’t know. there are loads of IR couples where i live, including several with Asian men and white women. i admit that i used to look at IR couples with a sort of fascination at first and it is possible that my actions may have been misinterpreted. now i’m used to them and don’t bat an eyelid when (for example) my Japanese friend introduced me to his English girlfriend.

i think in some reactions to interracial relationships may be legitimate however it becomes worrying when it gets extreme with rude stares and cold shoulders.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 5:54 pm ¶
hamira wrote:

Re; Jeremy
“To the specific point re:Oprah – Doesn’t Tyra Banks have a sizable white-woman viewership?”

Perhaps, but Tyra’s shows always portray black women in a negative light that the average WW in the audience probably relates to.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 6:34 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

I beg to differ. White women suffer from as many deep insecurities, around the questions of image and desirability as any other woman. Most of the white women I know, live with a complex mixture of fear, threat and admiration at Black Women’s attractiveness and strength.

Anyway, I’m so over, love based on false Nationalism. Relationships are about compatibility, as a Black male, I wouldn’t date a Black woman who was a Conservative.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 6:49 pm ¶
Jessica wrote:

My sister has been dating a WM for about 5 years now (she’ll be 22 in Nov. and he’s ll 23 or 23 this summer) and she’s says that they don’t get much looks and her friends don’t say anything about it to her face. She said that once an older black couple was staring at them but that’s about it. But my sister probably isn’t paying attention either b/c thats how she is and if her bf saw some dirty looks he wouldn’t say anything because he doesn’t want to hurt her feeling (even though it probably wouldn’t).

I once had a huge crush on this Chinese boy in high school and we went to the beach and then we went back to my house to watch a film and it was me, him, my sister, and my sister’s boyfriend and my mom told me that my dad did a little sigh b/c there was no black guys in the living rooms. Oh well. But that’s my dad and I don’t give a damn if he approves of who I’m dating (for now since it probably won’t be anything serious).

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 7:02 pm ¶
Megan wrote:

@Mee Mee…I can totally relate to that. I Iwent to a predominately white college and fell in love with my current fiance who is Puerto Rican. I’ve been questioned on more than one occassion by Black males that I come in contact with about why I chose to date a Puerto Rican. This from Black men who ONLY (by their own admission!) want to date mixed/light skinned women. You can imagine how upsetting is to hear something that ignorant when you are the least desirable of all on the totem pole of skin hue, a dark skinned African American female. So I agree. YOU DIDN”T WANT ME ANYWAY. Seriously I am supposed to wait around? Black males had a plethora of white females to choose from on campus, but unfortunately Black women don’t have the same choices for dating. White men weren’t to big on dating Black women on campus. Anyways insinuating that I should “wait” (until you get to me?!) is not only ignorant but insulting.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 7:18 pm ¶
mute wrote:

@ Just a Thought in #8.

“I’ve had more struggle overcoming feeling threatened by Latina, bi/multiracial women, and some asian women (mostly south asian) because while the skin tone may be similar to mine, the fact that some possess features that more closely align to a european standard of beauty than mine plays into some of the old insecurities that I’ve had. ”

I can relate. It’s not just white women that are portrayed as being more valuable than black women.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 8:24 pm ¶
Michelle wrote:

@Blanc2

People use the argument that White women tan and curl their hair and it always falls flat to me. White women aren’t trying to look Black when they tan. They are looking to be like JLo and Jennifer Aniston. A tan does not equal Black woman. And the hair thing? White women who curl their hair are trying to look like Sara Jessica Parker, not someone with kinky curly hair.

In regards to women being conditioned to being haters, I think that is a gross oversimplification, however you do have a point. I was at the gym and this girl with a BANGIN’ body was prancing around in a bikini. I was with my girls and we joked about it, and I said “She needs to put some clothes on. Why make it harder for the rest of us?” I was joking, and I didn’t throw shade, but I still felt a pang of jealousy. Women, for some reason, do feel that we need to compete with one another, or compete with a set of impossible standards. It does create a level of antagonism that gives rise to “the attitude”.

Also, I think the whole ownership argument is extremely unfair because every time I hear it, I never hear anyone acknowledge that the sense of ownership comes from a truly sincere place. How many people have heard Black people refer to “MY people”, “MY sisters and brothers”? Black people (and I am sure other ethnicities) are encouraged to stick together, help each other out, look out for one another, each one to teach one. This mentality has been promoted through our communities through organizations, religious groups, commercials, music and civic leaders. Black people accuse each other of being crawdads (crayfish) in a bucket, and rail at the heavens that Black people need to be more like ___ people, cause they stick together. We have a whole holiday (Kwanzaa) dedicated to the idea of the collective. AND I KNOW THAT FEELING THAT SOMEONE HAS A RIGHT TO YOU SUCKS AND THAT SOMEONE ASSUMING OWNERSHIP IS WRONG!!! It is just that I have never seen the proper context for where that mentality comes from show up on this or any other discussion site.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:29 pm ¶
RCHOUDH wrote:

I think most women are socially conditioned to be overtly critical of other women over almost everything, including who their significant other is. Besides the other woman’s appearance, fashion, and taste in men, her race and class are just other factors to judge her by. I agree with everyone that an implicit social hierarchy exists, that tells the women on the top to look down up the ones on the bottom who would “dare” to climb up.

But I think we should remember that men can judgmental too, even if not overtly. The most overtly judgmental of course will be the racists, who can get violent or abusive if they see interracial couples with POC men, for example. But white men can be judgmental in other ways too, like by “thanking” the POC man for taking the “ugly chicks” off the market for example. So basically like Abu Sinan already mentioned, everybody’s judgmental of each other on some level. Very few people exist who don’t give a damn what others’ choice of romantic partners are.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:49 pm ¶
A. wrote:

I’m a black woman in a relationship with a white man, and have been in one for two years.

I’ve gotten a lot of issues out of white women, which is hilarious to me, because he’s someone that a lot of white women wouldn’t even consider (in the regard that he’s not very tall, he’s very slim, and he appears to be quite nerdy), but yet, they’ve mainly looked me up and down as though I’m so evil. A lot of the Black women on my campus look at us together and smile or are generally pretty cool about it and very supportive.

I think that what it is with white women is that so many of them are concerned about trying to measure up. I’ve noticed that white women are often more concerned about emulating the media, so when their attempts to look like the latest celebrity doesn’t get them a committed relationship, it hurts their self-esteem.

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:02 pm ¶
Sara wrote:

I know this is not exactly to the point lof your article but i wanted to add my view to this. As a white-looking mixed race muslim woman raised in england, my view is that in our society “beauty” is acciociated with whiteness and being fair skinned. and women, even in this day and age are valued on their looks before anything else and there are women in soceity who like to trade on their looks and believe the media that says their skin colour gives them a sort of privledge in terms of being better than others. its pathetic.

growing up in an asian community and the idea’s of beauty that go with it i am aware of skin bleaching which makes me angry because the idea that women (and it does pretty much exclusively apply to women) dont even have the right skin tone just infuriates me. i have had women of both indian and black communities tell me how lucky i am that i look white because i will attract more arab and black muslim men which goes to show that not just western cultures but other cultures have been affected by the idea of “white superiority”.

however i am surprised that you have had this B******* from women as my friends have experienced this attitude solely from men. my asian friends have been hassled by fellow asians for dating black men, my white friends hassled for dating asian men and my mixed race friends hassled by black men for dating women as their only lesbian because they’ve never “experienced a black man”(although thats probably a different conversation entirely!)

i think the issue is that women are still seen as objects, and some of these women get off on being prized as valuable objects which i feel explains the lack of sisterhood in society whereas men are not so no matter what ethnic group you belong to as a woman you will get flack if you decide to date someone who is of a different race or ethnic background.

but these women sound like the ones i just describe, the ones that like to be valued prized objects and are confused after the media have told them all men want fair skinned/white woman and therefore find, like so many have said before you a threat because you are dating a white man. well f*** that kinda thinking. it takes all sorts to make a world and i’m all for IR, after all if it wasn’t for one particular IR i would’nt be here!

Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:30 pm ¶
browne wrote:

“If Oprah were slender and alluring instead of the woman white ladies bring their problems to, she wouldn’t be as successful.” Emmekai

I definitely agree with that. I feel in my own life if I were bigger and less attractive it would be easier for me in the mainstream alternative (you writer artist types know what I mean) art and writing world. I think a black woman with African features that is viewed as attractive and thin with a white boyfriend sets you up for a real hostile environment. And don’t add smart and upper middle class, because how dare you not be and pathetic or inferior in some way (not that bigger and poor is inferior, but I”m talking about in the mainstream perception.) And to me its not about the competition for men, I don’t compete for men. It is just about the economics of it, trying to navigate the writing and art world and not being the big black girl is hard, because the humanities world loves that person. No disrespect, because I think in some ways thats good, but some ways its like the only kind of black woman you can be (outside of the african-american world, because inside that world there are lots of women you can be) is either this really straight laced middle class christian ladylike persona with relaxed hair or this big earth mama type, there is no room for the Erykah Badus and Lisa Bonets of the world.

I think I would get more opportunities if I gained about 50 pounds, maybe I’ll try that…lol..or maybe I should just move to Atlanta.

Browne

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 1:09 am ¶
Xi wrote:

Pheagan

“why would you move to a country, the entire population of whom you are not attracted to, for a year if you’re single? ”

Most people make life changing decisions like leaving their own country and moving across the world to an entirely different country and culture based on other reasons, maybe career opportunities, money, adventure, as part of a family decision and so on. Being single and potentially not finding the native population sexually attractive is rarely a reason not to travel or move to a new country.

I am a white woman who has been living in Asia for the past seven years, and like you I have had relationships with men from my new country. That doesn’t make me better, or more open minded than my white girlfriends here that have not, it just makes me lucky enough to have found a man who I am compatible with. It’s difficult to find ANYONE that understands and loves you without taking race or culture into consideration.

My friends who do not date asian men, or don’t find them particularly attractive. usually base their opinion on the fact that our cultures are so extremely different. It’s difficult to picture yourself with a man who doesn’t understand who you are, what you are about, get your jokes, share your interests or values, not matter how gorgeous his face is.

So many of these women who moved to asia, not to find a husband but for their career, and then find themselves a little lonely and like everybody else want to have a relationship with a man that understands you, I don’t find it strange for them to look for a foreign man. And when so many men of this already very limited pool again and again state that they only date Asian women for charming reasons like
“she’ll cook and clean for me”, ” she lets me do whatever I want in bed”, “she never says no” and then turn around and complain that their girlfriend doesn’t understand them, has no sense of humor, and so on, I do understand the bitterness many foreign women here feel.

Of course not all foreign men in Asia think and act like this, and the ones that do are certainly not the kind of man any self respecting woman of any race should be with, but having seen these men so many times during my years here it does make me very tired, upset and appalled. As I am sure you know there’s a very seedy side to many WM/AW relationships in Asia.

And as many other people here have pointed out I think that the issues some women have with a man of their own race dating someone of a different race is based on insecurities. We always what what we can’t have, or can’t be. If I am jealous of a beautiful white woman she still represents someone that I could potentially be. A beautiful black or asian woman triggers the same jealously, but enhanced with the knowledge that she has something completely different, and I could never be her.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 4:48 am ¶
Ric Caric wrote:

Sorry for being such a guy here, but I wonder if this isn’t similar to the “black quarterbacks” in the NFL or “black coaches in the NBA.” The new wrinkle on integration causes an attitude flare-up for a while. Then it becomes a more familiar part of the cultural landscape and, finally, Rush Limbaugh is the only one with a real problem. Perhaps there’s an attitude about “black women dating white guys” because it’s been relatively rare (it’s really rare at my college in Kentucky). But it might become just another of the million and one sources of competition, problems, or issues once everybody becomes more familiar with it.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 4:59 am ¶
TJ wrote:

Interesting. I am in an interracial relationship with an interracial daughter. My husband and I don’t get nearly as many nasty looks from white women, as stares from Black women. It is weird-they look and sometimes smile, never hostile though. I do get stares from white men all the time when I am with my daughter, it’s as if she is my pass to now be looked at as desirable. So weird. I grew up in an AA family where the AA men could have all the women they wanted, of any “race’. And the AA women were traitors if they slept with a white man, going so far as to say white men were perverts who just want to have sex, and would have sex with a dog if need be. So, being in an unexpected interracial marriage has honestly made me so keenly aware of the racial dynamics of desirability, beauty, objectification and gender/race relations. I get more “YOU ARE SO BEAUTIFUL”, as if they just discovered this today-from white men, than dirty looks from white women. I get “She is so beautiful, is that your daughter?”-from white women. Another kind of “diss” if you will. My daughter is visibly biracial, morseo obvious when she is with me screaming “mama.”

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 11:09 am ¶
jaye wrote:

The comments have been really interesting. I had no idea what different “races” of women were thinking of other women, so thanks to all the people for their honesty.

I’m a mixed South Asian and Asian, and most people can’t quite place me, I look vaguely like a brown-skinned southeast asian, but people have thought I’ve been just about every race on the planet. I grew up around South Asians, Asians, and whites…and was never thought of as particularly desirable in the group. I’m aware of the “hierarchy of desirability”, but never experienced it in terms of how I saw other people. I found Asian guys hot, but they were never that into me…they tended to go for my smaller Asian gf’s (I’m 5″7′, pretty thin, but my other gf’s were 5″2′ or 5″4′, but I was a teenager then…I think everyone’s gotten a bit taller since then). I was never that into WM’s, and the assumption would be that South Asian guys would really like me because I was mixed…but nope, never got more than a passing glance. It’s not like I couldn’t date a guy from any of these races if I wanted to, but I certainly wasn’t moth-to-a-flame desirable like some of my other Asian gf’s.

When I left my hometown and travelled to other places, I was overwhelmed by the way black guys and hispanic guys treated me. I never thought I was undesirable or ugly, but suddenly guys were crossing the street and shouting across rooms just to talk to me. It definitely changed my perspective of myself…I never thought being mixed race was something to be coveted or wanted until then. And I’ve just been on all sides of the spectrum…the one who’s undesirable, the one who’s most desirable…it’s weird being kind of bounced all over in terms of how others perceive you. When I’m around other women, and men…I’m wondering, are they intimidated by me because they find me attractive? Or are they being rude and dismissive because they feel superior to me in terms our looks? I really never know what to expect, reactions are so all over the place. And then with black males, who I find insanely attractive…I feel really cautious around black women, because I’m not really sure what they’re thinking, or what they think about the fact that I’m dating black guys, or if they’ve made assumptions about what I think of them. I really haven’t had any conversations with black women about this, because most of the time, they don’t seem particularly interested in talking to me, although no one has ever been rude, it’s just mostly been aloof and distant. Actually, I could go on and on about my experiences with Hispanic guys, about how I go back and forth between being flattered by attention by black guys, but also a little cautious because I’m wondering if it’s because of my lighter skin, and I don’t want to be contributing to that kind of mentality (the first black guy I dated I fell completely in love with, and he had only dated black girls before and after me, so I’m pretty confident it was all about who I was with him…but since then with the guys I’ve dated, who knows?)…so I have a lot more to say, but I’ll end it here before Latoya tells me to start my own blog.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 11:31 am ¶
Pheagan wrote:

Xi– I can understand your point. And certainly I have seen the evils of the WM / AF thing. However, I find it a lot worse in poorer countries. In Cambodia you’d see a lot of old, fairly disgusting guys with young, beautiful Khmer girls. And when you see guys going there, or to Thailand, for the express purpose of looking for impoverished girls who are way the hell out of their league, it’s really disgusting.

In contrast, however, I find that guys in Korea who were dating Korean girls were way different. I saw a lot less of the fetish thing. They tended to have more in common. A big thing was I saw more of an effort by the white guys to speak the language. This isn’t to dismiss that there are some fetishistic guys or guys going for subservience, but I found the WM/ AF relationships in Korea to come from a generally healthier place.

And yes, people move to other countries for a lot of reasons. However, if you’re single, and you don’t like Asian men, if you move to a place like Korea I think you have to be responsible for your choice. You know your options are going to be limited. Very few white women are unaware of the Asian girl fetish. It seems naive to go to Asia expecting to date white guys (and the foreign population in a place like Korea is definitely predominately white). And I haven’t ever heard a woman say she won’t date Korean men because of cultural differences. It’s always because she’s not attracted to Asian men. There are, after all, plenty of Korean-American guys and girls among the foreign population, but the men tend to also date Korean girls. I dated a Korean-American and he said he was surprised to find himself with a white girl. He’d expected to be with a Korean girl because he didn’t think white girls likes Asian men. I’ve heard that sentiment from a lot of Korean and Khmer and Japanese guys, American and native. It’s not coming from nowhere.

And I do think, if you’re rejecting an gigantic population of people without giving it a chance, then you really don’t have a right to criticize the tiny group of people “like you” for dating from that gigantic population. I mean, the thoughtless rejection of Asian men as potential mates has contributed to a lot of insecurity, so I think it’s a bit hypocritical to use white female insecurity as an excuse. I mean, white expat females can always go home. The majority of them do.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 12:05 pm ¶
Loryn wrote:

i think there’s just the assumed intentions. ie, why did she choose to be with a white man/why did he choose to be with a white woman.

i’m a black woman. if i choose to date a white or otherwise non-Black man, there may be a few ignorant people who say “why is she with HIM when she could be with a Black man”

it is already assumed that i think i am “too good” for a brotha. not the case

many times, it’s just about letting go of your requirements–the man doesn’t have to be black he just has to love/respect/care for me, etc.

but too many people are still buying into the idea that your mate HAS to look like you in order for a relationship to work.

while i do think that some of the dirty looks above commenters have described are racially motivated, I also want to point out that what bothers me more is that people almost always assume the worst intentions when they see a Black woman or a Black man dating outside of their race.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 12:57 pm ¶
babybro wrote:

@ Xey

Well for one Xey, it’s important to realise that black men, like black women, are not all one collective group. We all have our own opinion and we are all different. Same with white men, white women, and every single other race out there. So just to throw it out there for you, I am just speaking for myself, not for black males as a whole.

Now for my perspective, I have absolutely no problem with black women dating white men. Why? Because I’m a huge believer in “IR” for a slew of reasons.

But the other aspect is that if I was against BW/WM relationships, than that would make me a hypocrite, and one of the worst things IMO you can be is a hypocrite. True, people may have an subconsciously hypocritical reaction. But once you realize this, you should change to remove that aspect from you. I lose all respect for those black women who have a problem with BM/WF relationship, yet has no problem with BW/WM relationships. Because no matter what reasons you placed to justify this sort of behavior, at the end, it still makes you a hypocrite. Same with Black Men, White Men, and anybody else who fits the bill. If they know they have this sort of mindset, and refuse to make a change for the better, I lose all respect for them. It doesn’t help that I lost a black female friend because of this mindset as well.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 2:45 pm ¶
nemogbr wrote:

Fascinating post and the responses are amazing.
I am a Filipino who grew up in London. United Kingdom.

I have to say that I never knew that Asians/Asian American men have a lower status in dating compared to other men, alongside Black women.

I only found out about the phenomenon about two years ago.

I have dated different races and none have been of Asian Oriental extraction. SouthEast or East Asian.

There were not that many when i was growing up and most of the people I dealt with were European and that’s who i dated.

I do remember a conversation with an Afro-Caribbean woman who stated that she would never go out with a white man. I asked if she had ever been asked, she said no.

Later on she dated and got pregnant with a Afro-CAribbean man and stayed with her mother. I also got into trouble with that due to a conversation of criticising women who thought that a man would stay with them if they got pregnant, even though the man already had kids from a previous relationship. I didn’t realise that she was in the same dating situation.

As for me, I’ve dated several Black women of European and African extraction. Never encountered a problem.

Perhaps it is due to living in London. Less segregated.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 3:57 pm ¶
c.n.edaw wrote:

RCHOUDH wrote:

But white men can be judgmental in other ways too, like by “thanking” the POC man for taking the “ugly chicks” off the market for example.

I live in KY and have only heard that about five times already this week!

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 5:08 pm ¶
violet wrote:

All I want to say is how grateful I am to you Nadra for bringing this forth.
Reading these posts says it all!
In increments, BW are gaining some empowerment, power, a Voice. I believe wholeheartedly that has somewhat to do with having a BW First Lady!
We’ve been feeling, thinking this, said it to a few in passing. You brought it loud and clear!
It’s about damn time!!!!
Thank you so much Nadra!

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 5:15 pm ¶
c.n.edaw wrote:

@Blanc2

“People use the argument that White women tan and curl their hair and it always falls flat to me. White women aren’t trying to look Black when they tan. They are looking to be like JLo and Jennifer Aniston. A tan does not equal Black woman. And the hair thing? White women who curl their hair are trying to look like Sara Jessica Parker, not someone with kinky curly hair. ”

God thank you for pointing this out! This argument was brought up multiple times during that “My Black is Beautiful” disaster of a show BET put on the past two weekends supposedly with the intention of building my self esteem. My roomate ( who grew up all over the world as an Army brat) and I both cringed everytime some black woman claimed white women wanted too look like us for those reasons!

As someone who grew up around mostly white people– I have not yet encountered one who wanted to be black because they tan or perm their har ! They just don’t want to be stringy-haired and or pasty white! LOL!

Ditto on the ridiculous body comparisons– because typically the desire is not for a huge butt on a average woman’s body–but a small shapely well rounded rear on a size zero waist with a d cup chest– or for thick lips, just a bee stung pout!

I know white women who covet Halle Berry’s or maybe even Beyonce’s looks– but I have yet to hear one say I’d like to look like Oprah or Cicely Tyson or Jill Scott. Not in 29 years of living in the burbs I haven’t

Okay, I am getting off track again. Just had to get that off my chest! Sorry.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 5:16 pm ¶
theboxman wrote:

Pheagan: (and the foreign population in a place like Korea is definitely predominately white)

No it isn’t. It’s mostly Chinese, Japanese, and Southeast Asian, and for that matter, most international marriages in Korea are inter-Asian. Now the American population in Korea may be predominantly white, but foreign does not equal American. World doesn’t revolve around white Americans.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 5:54 pm ¶
n wrote:

this has been interesting. i was reading an IR dating site, WM/BW and the author was furious about Forest Whittaker’s choice of a wife. And I was astonished, if she felt that way about her, what would she feel about me? And if I have been on the side of black women giving hate toward black men with white women, have I unintentionally been battling MYSELF? I hadn’t fully realized the pool of women who BM shouldn’t date includes me.

I worried how the biracial daughters of the proposed B/W unions would feel knowing their mothers felt that way, and how the women would respond if a black male were to marry their more euro-featured daughter rather than a darker woman.

I was indoctrinated to hate black men for dating white and light and at the same time, to date black men. I have always chosen black men who prefer dark women, I was taught to do so. By definition I would then hate any man who wanted to date me OR date only men who didn’t really like me.

And reading some of the stuff on other sites really gave me some insight into how deep the pain and hatred is. I had suspected, but never really heard it unfiltered. Amazing.

I for one will not be rushing to judge ANYONE based on their choice of mate and maybe that whole “well, if he likes white girls fck him” thing can be shelved for good too.

This has been enlightening, no pun intended, for me.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 7:05 pm ¶
Brothel Poet wrote:

“Ditto on the ridiculous body comparisons– because typically the desire is not for a huge butt on a average woman’s body–but a small shapely well rounded rear on a size zero waist with a d cup chest– or for thick lips, just a bee stung pout! ”

I think this is not quite true. I think this idea that white women are immune to feeling by threatened by black women is 100% completely wrong. Look, I have lots of white girlfriends and have been married to my white husband for ten years. The truth is, every woman has the potential, in our commodifying and objectifying culture to feel bad about herself. And don’t you dare for one minute think that white women don’t want to have black asses- because they do. Some do,I should say.
Nobody wants to look like Oprah, because like someone else pointed out, Oprah never sold herself as a sexual object. Duh! Cicely Tyson was never marketed in that way. And Jill Scott is a larger women,and this culture does not treat larger women as sexual objects in the way they do thinner ones. (I bet you if you put a young Cicely Tyson in some tight clothes and good lighting, you would see many white women threatened by her skin color, her lips, her melanin enriched youthfulness. That’s why they never did advertise black women in that way- it would probably cause a psychic breakdown in the self esteem of the dominant class)
But I know for a fact that I have been hated on by white women and Asians. Women hate on each other. The wider your circle of associates, the more you can be subject to jealousy and competition. That’s the truth.

I do think that the alleged superiority that white people have felt for black people has been a mixture of that uniquely European inferiority/superiority complex. Or maybe it’s uniquely human. Many of us don’t want to believe that different doesn’t mean better or worse. White culture seems to be caught up in better or worse comparisons, always trying to find a way to feel superior. Because they fear feeling inferior.
Or I should say, white culture has demonstrated that trait very intensely in our society for several hundred years. The truth is, that’s part of being human- mistaking difference for better or worse.
As a black woman with all kinds of friends, I can tell you that women deal with insecurities all the time. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE. Race is a small part of women who struggle to feel okay about themselves in a culture in which they are constantly commodified. And that’s the truth. White women may give black women shade in interracial relationships and visa versa, and I am so happy that the poster made clear that black women weren’t some lone league of nuts protessting interracial relationships. I have encountered all sorts of racism that seeps over into judgments about my relationships. Where you find racism, you shall find people intolerant of interracial relationships.
Anyway, after ten years, I am starting to not care. Stupid people who give shade about your mate help a person filter out the good from the bed. I have had a friend assume that because i am with a white man, I feel inferior or something. I had to get her straight. And she was black. I had to break down that I could still be a conscious, proud black woman and be with a white man. Ugh! The shit in this culture is so deep seded. A LOT of people think that white equals high status, black equals low status. But you can’t have sex with high status or low status for twelve years and have it be satisfying.
Anyway, people are colonized and heirarchical, women are damaged from being commodified, and everyone in general needs to go to racialicious and keep waking up.

Posted 13 Jun 2009 at 9:59 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

Hey, my posts don’t seem to be going through. Is it because I’m off-topic, or because I’m on AOL now?

Mod Note – Drop us an email if anymore go missing. – LDP

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 1:17 am ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“People use the argument that White women tan and curl their hair and it always falls flat to me. White women aren’t trying to look Black when they tan. They are looking to be like JLo and Jennifer Aniston. A tan does not equal Black woman. And the hair thing? White women who curl their hair are trying to look like Sara Jessica Parker, not someone with kinky curly hair.”

True. The standard of beauty has been influenced by people and media around the globe, not so much as to change the almost ubiquitous premium on a European/Euro-tinged appearance, but enough to make Kate Hudson-types somewhat insecure about the size of their lips. White women aren’t trying to look black, they’re trying to fit this new standard that incorporates an amalgam of features that no one large racial group has simultaneously. Also, the people that say these things just aren’t aware of how many white people straighten their hair, then curl it again to get a look that’s much less curly than it would naturally be. And I heard a leading plastic surgeon say that the vast majority of women who go for the oft-mentioned “butt-implants” are black and/or Latina, who come from cultures that value those kinds of curves. Given that the population of American women who can afford elective cosmetic surgeries is predominantly white, this means that by and large, a larger bottom is not “coveted” by that demographic. Looking for validation in the beauty rituals of white women is misguided at best, fruitless at worst. Addendum — these same women would be appalled if it were said that they straightened their hair en masse to appear “whiter.”

It’s interesting that negative white male responses to IRs aren’t mentioned here much. I remember being with an attractive, albeit nerdy white male friend in the aisle of a video store and another white male (in his late 20s early 30s) kind of shoved himself between us with an audible huff as he made his way through the aisle. Friend was oblivious, but I’d never experienced anything like that when out with my black male friends.

Also, people can admonish women for looking for external approval all they want, but everyone does it, and it’s kind of disheartening that black women’s cheering section seems to consist primarily of… other black women, while other groups seem to have a more broad appeal. Sometimes, black women place a disproportionate amount of pressure/attention/accountability on black men because there’s a feeling that black men are “all we’ve got,” attention-wise, and some Asian men may feel similarly.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 1:21 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

@ c.d.enaw and Blanc2: THIS. Thank you!

Another sign of colorism and power struggles: IMO, the sign that a tan, etc. send is that that color (or haircut, etc.) is REVERSIBLE. Therefore, you’re playing dressup, not actually living in a non-white skin. And the US (and other nations’) society still sends the message out that this reversibility/play acting, esp. for women, is desirable.

And a lot of women buy into this trap. But a lot don’t. But of course, society doesn’t promote them.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 7:31 am ¶
theboxman wrote:

Pheagan: (and the foreign population in a place like Korea is definitely predominately white)

No it isn’t. It’s mostly Chinese, Japanese, and Southeast Asian, and for that matter, most international marriages in Korea are inter-Asian. Now the American population in Korea may be predominantly white, but foreign does not equal American. World doesn’t revolve around white Americans.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 9:21 am ¶
Ruchama wrote:

White women aren’t trying to look Black when they tan.

Yeah. In fact, ending up looking black is definitely seen as a problem. I’m pretty dark for a white person to begin with, and when I’d spend all day outside during the summer as a kid, I’d get much darker, and quite a few older relatives (my grandmother’s generation) would freak out and tell my mother to keep me inside because “that child looks black.”

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 10:08 am ¶
vera wrote:

In regards to the post stating that white women do the plastic surgery/tanning thing to look *black*, I believe in a round about way they do – except for tanning. Some white people only like the features common to blacks if it is NOT on blacks. I remember back in the 70’s when Bo Derek sported the cornrows/cornrolls, and some white people were so astonished and were trying to get them. Some were acting like it was a new hairstyle, when blacks wore them for years!
A person would be blind not to see that black women had round butts (not all have hugh butts – according to c.n.edaw), but only when a person who is considered non-black – Jennifer Lopez was noticed for her round butt – then all of a sudden it was a rage. Even the silly Burger King commercial borrowed from Sir Mix-a-Lot’s video, but you notice it did not include black women. Or the so-called Brazilian butt – like some Brazilian people do not have African ancestry – anything not to admit to admiring the features of a black person.
Blacks were made fun of for years for their large lips – I remember Steven Tyler of Aerosmith was quoting as saying he was made fun of because of his lips – he stated he was made fun of and his lips were called n*gger lips. But suddenly Angelina Jolie becomes famous – and do not forget the famous “French lips” (yeah right), and then all of a sudden some white women are going around looking like ducks. But never in a million years would they say they want bigger lips like the lips that occur naturally within black races – they would rather say they want “French” lips or lips like Angelina Jolie.
And tanning, I do NOT believe that some whites want to be black, but I do feel that they do not like a part of themselves and that is just as bad. Why would you actually bake yourself to look different?
This is MY opinion, I feel that SOME white people feel that the features of black people are not considered ideal, unless they are on another race – and I think that is a form of racism.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 10:15 am ¶
queerhapa wrote:

i want to channel Rob from the other thread: we seriously need some more homo wrenches thrown into these conversations. sigh…

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 2:39 pm ¶
browne wrote:

I’m going to agree I don’t think white women are trying to look black when they tan or get full lips. Coco Chanel went to the French Rivera and came back with a tan and from that point on women of leisure who were able to hang outside have a visible marker of it by tanning whereas poor white women didn’t have that kind of free time. The full lips thing, I don’t think that gives white woman a “black” look. The black women they do end up favoring more often than not are more european looking black women, but to me tanning and lip injection doesn’t say black woman…now if white women start wearing african style braids…well even then I mean when a white woman or a black woman wears an ethnic style Asian outfit or a bob are they trying to look Asian…no I don’t think so. I have always been real confused when people try to go there. It seems more of an issue with the person who is saying it and trying to say they are ok than the woman who is getting a tan.

Also on the other hand I don’t think Latinas or Black women who are from the inner cities are trying to look “white” when they dye there hair odd blondish colors, I think it’s just a style, in fact to me black women and Latinas who do the orange blonde look end up looking more culturally ethnic to me than women of color who don’t dye their hair.

I’ve said this several times to me while you may “look” more ethnic with natual hair and dreadlocks in general the black women who live with black people in the united states in the inner city don’t wear their hair like that, natural hair for people in the black community (at least in LA) is almost a signal to people in the community and outside the community that you don’t live in the inner city, that you live in a white neighborhood and you’re not like “those” people with fake nails and fake hair. It’s a real class marker to me, the more natural a black woman’s hair is in certain circles the more likely she is to be of the more upper middle class world. You almost never see working class black women (which is the majority) wearing natural hair.

Oddly I think while you may look more visibally ethnic with ethnic hair as a black woman I think culturally you are probably less so, you’re probably more likely to be in the more mainstream world, have more economic access and have friends of different ethnic groups, those three things makes you different than the average black woman. I never understood how a black woman with dreads in a white neighborhood, with one black friend can really claim to love themselves more than a black woman who lives in a hood just because the woman in the hood has a straightened out weave. Not saying that one is more superior than the other, but lots of people think they are superior and I find that confusing.

Browne

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 3:05 pm ¶
creole tomato wrote:

“I think this is not quite true. I think this idea that white women are immune to feeling by threatened by black women is 100% completely wrong. Look, I have lots of white girlfriends and have been married to my white husband for ten years. The truth is, every woman has the potential, in our commodifying and objectifying culture to feel bad about herself. And don’t you dare for one minute think that white women don’t want to have black asses- because they do. Some do,I should say.”

I couldn’t agree more. I’m in an interracial relationship and I have gotten my fair share of nasty looks, foul attitudes and the like. It amazes me that people have a hard time believing that white women can be jealous of black women.

Black women and Asian men are not the least desirable. They are least likely to date outside of their race. I am so glad that this is changing.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 3:20 pm ¶
TJ wrote:

#46

You are funny. I have to laugh because African descendants who are first generation Americans always feel the need to distant themselves from African American problems. the assumption that being African American exclusively means that you are descendants of Black slaves, is not true. Alot of African American problems have alot to do with their skin color and how the world views them, especially women and their beauty. Hence, you are apart of that! Not only that, Africans have a whole layer of colonialism that they must deal with just like psychological impact of slavery that African Americans and Afro-Brazillans have to deal with. Alot of this is colorism. It’s not about “so what”……It’s not SO WHAT. It’s about little girls relaxing their hair because they don’t feel good enough. It’s about little girls feeling fat, because they have to this exalted idea of beauty the size of an 11 year old boy with Playboy breasts. It’s about relationship problems and being desperate because society is telling you that because you are a Black women, you will never marry, therefore you hang on to the scumbag you have. It’s about access. It’s about opportunity. It’s about a whole community of people. It’s not so what. It’s about, so change. It is not okay to have a superficial love caste system. Something is wrong with the psyche of a people or gender if they think it’s ok to cast a shadow on a group of people for biologically having melanin in their skin. That is sick. And if you don’t think it’s sick, then you are apart of the problem. Group Think is not the solution but denial is def. not either. To think that somehow you (BM) are an isolated incidence because you (BM)’happened’ to fall in love(with a WW) is laughable and naive.

So I guess you are ignorant(because that’s what we call people who don’t know), with all do respect, but so what.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 6:45 pm ¶
TJ wrote:

I also suggest the people who think that BM/WW relationships are in any way comparable to BW/WM relationships to read Patricia Hill Collins “Black Sexual Politics”. It should be common knowledge that the race and sexual dynamics in the above relationships vary greatly like Earth and Mars.

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 6:50 pm ¶
Emmeaki wrote:

Megan wrote:

I’ve been questioned on more than one ocassion by Black males that I come in contact with about why I chose to date a Puerto Rican. This from Black men who ONLY (by their own admission!) want to date mixed/light skinned women. You can imagine how upsetting is to hear something that ignorant when you are the least desirable of all on the totem pole of skin hue, a dark skinned African American female.

This is so true. I have medium brown skin and I know what it’s like to be considered a “darkie” by black men. These type of black men would never give me the time of day, yet they go in to a rage when they see me with a white man.

It’s funny thing is that they don’t want us black women to date white guys, yet if they see mixed women, they fall all over them. Well, somebody had to do some race mixing to produce these green-eyed, light-skinned sistas!

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 10:09 pm ¶
Kandeezie wrote:

“Adding insult to injury is that it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m more or less physically attractive than these women. That I’m black alone makes me inferior in their eyes.” – DEAD ON!

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 10:35 pm ¶
NEPARedneck wrote:

I would like to say that this article really just explained a lot of things I have been noticing. First of all I am dating and in love with a Lebanese-American woman and I am white primarily of Russian-German descent. This July will be a year for us and I have been trying to figure out why some of the white women who are my friends don’t like me anymore. They think my girlfriend controls me since I spend most of my free time with her, and shoot her and me dirty looks when we are all together. She also lives an hour plus away. My best friend who has no problems with whom I date *as long as she is good for me* recently told me that his fiance an ex-girlfriend of mine no longer wishes to hang out with me. She has tried to get him to stop but he told her she just doesn’t understand our friendship. ( Where was I going with this….Oh!) I was trying to say that they are just being racist about the whole thing. I think that some of each race believes that we must stick to our own, but I disagree. As long as it is for love and attraction not any political, or social agendas be with who you want to be with.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 12:55 am ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:

@ Vera. I was not saying that all black women have HUGE butts..my point was that white women don’t tend to want what we in the black community might consider a nice sized butt (and I will take you up on your contention that all black women have high round butts, as you say later on in this post to drive home my point, LOL)…nor did I at any time make the statement that white women cannot be jealous of black women.

This also @ Brothel Poet– my earlier post #41 would definitely contradict that assertion (that white women can’t be jealous of black women) as I don’t believe that and have not experienced that to be the case, in fact quite the opposite. However, the jealousy is often couched in what I think is their innate belief they are STILL superior whatever they might lack.

I simply take issue with the notion that because a person may find certain features that are more common in another race or ethnicity appealing or desirable that means they want to be that race or ethnicity.

White women who tan or perm their hair don’t want to be black any more than the average black woman who gets a relaxer or wears a weave wants to be white. It’s just not true in most cases. Remember what Chris Rock said, I believe it applies here. And I’ll say it again, they tan in order not to be pale–not out of some deep desire to be black. Most might want some cascading curls, but I would be challenged to find anyone looking for a fro.

If this discussion must really be reduced to butts and since I explain myself better by using anecdotes I will relate this tidbit.

I am a tall, thin black woman with what MOST black people would consider a small, rather flat butt. I’m 5″10 and wear a size 4 or 6 on a good day. I’m 29 years old and no black man has EVER said I had a great butt–in fact, it’s often commented what a shame it is that I have such a pretty face, nice chest and NO BOOTY!

My black girlfriends also shake their heads at my lack of ass though some covet my D cup bra size. I run and do squats so I am in good shape; but I certainly don’t have this high round butt supposedly all black women posess and am constantly reminded of it when amongst black folks.

HOWEVER, white men (and men of other races other than black) tell me ALL THE TIME how great my ass is! My white girlfriends tell me they wish they had my butt– which granted, is a bit more shapely than most of theirs, but certainly is not a video ho, Sir Mix Alot, make the average black man do a double take kind of butt.

Most of the time it barely fills out my jeans, but I can wear short skirts and stretch pants without a hitch because the skirt won’t ride up and nothing back there jiggles in the slightest.

Anyway my point about the butt and using Cicely Tyson and Oprah as examples previously is that I find most white women envy black women’s features that can easily be melded with theirs while still maintaining their whiteness–Halle Berry’s creamy caramel skin, Beyonce’s pout, and my smaller than the average black woman’s rear.

But most that I know don’t want Cicely Tyson’s deep dark skin or Oprah’s broad nose or any black womans kinky, coarse frizzy hair. They want the end of the spectrum that’s much closer to them that might deem them more exotic, but certainly not those that would deem them phenotypically black IMHO.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 1:56 am ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:

Emmeaki wrote:

It’s funny thing is that they don’t want us black women to date white guys, yet if they see mixed women, they fall all over them. Well, somebody had to do some race mixing to produce these green-eyed, light-skinned sistas!

LMAO over this one!

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 2:03 am ¶
pololly wrote:

Great post!!!

@ TJ

I also suggest the people who think that BM/WW relationships are in any way comparable to BW/WM relationships to read Patricia Hill Collins “Black Sexual Politics”. It should be common knowledge that the race and sexual dynamics in the above relationships vary greatly like Earth and Mars.

THANK GOD!!!

Posted 14 Jun 2009 at 6:50 pm ¶

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 6:57 am ¶
Christie wrote:

I am a WF living in Japan and my husband is South Asian – so I am sheltered, as I don’t think there is a single Japanese person out there who cares whether or not a WF and a South-Asian man date or marry… we are both accepted at face value as “English-speaking foreigners” and when I mention to people that my husband is Indian (and that is why my kids have coloring similar to Japanese kids), people just repond with friendly interest.

The WM’s in Japan are mostly married to Japanese women, and they also seem to easily accept that I have also married an Asian person (like they have).

I just wanted to mention that we have a WM Canadian friend (from the central region of Canada) who says that there is open hostility (by white women) in his home city, towards WM/AF pairs. He had heard about it but had not thought much about it until he moved to his home city for a year or so, with his Japanese wife. They would go out to this or that restaurant, and would be treated with very obvious rudeness by white waitresses, etc., and after a while it became hard for them to go out to eat.

My sense is that these white waitresses probably felt something like, “You Asian women, you have that certain something that we can never have, just because of your race, and you have unfairly lured a white man (who should have been a white woman’s), with your unfair advantage”. Another ugly example of racism…

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 7:29 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Browne -

I think you’re making a lot of generalizations about natural hair.

The movement toward natural hair is rooted somewhat in the middle class /upper middle class existence, but there is a reason they sell things like shea butter in the Muslim owned shops or the natural food stores/hair stores. In addition, Natural Hair the Industry/Lifestyle, is way different from just wearing braids done with two $20 packs of weave or cornrows or plaits, all of which are generally done on the block somewhere. Same with Afro puffs and bantu knots or buzz cuts or a ceasar – dreds are only one way to rock a natural.

I also think the markers you refer to (like orange hair) may be specific to the style of LA. That wouldn’t work out here, in more conservative DC, and even further South, you see more women with actual blond colors or very deep primary colors (like red.)

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 10:39 am ¶
pololly wrote:

By the way, according to a 2007 Gallup poll, in the US, blacks more likely than whites to approve of black-white unions.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx

Yet culturally the conversation has now moved on to how blacks disapprove of it. Lake View Terrace, Guess Who remake, even Obsessed. It just seems like an attempt to show that black people are now the ‘real racists’.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 10:41 am ¶
Sam wrote:

If I had a nickel for every white woman who gave me a sour, side-look when I showed up with my ex I would be rich. I think it’s particularly startling in this case because he is a handsome, fit, 6′2, blue-eyed silver fox and I am a 5′5, medium built, attractive black woman. When white women see him first and then finally notice me, it is never nice and there is definitely a difference in the reaction of “damn, he’s good looking but taken” v. “damn, he’s good looking…what’s he doing with that black chick?” I thought LA would be more accepting.

I don’t know why it is, but it just seems to be.

I also have a friend (white woman) who I recently started working out with. When we go jogging through the park or go walking she can’t get over how many men are “checking us out.” She has no idea what it could be, it’s never happened to her before. It has never occurred to her that it could be me. She has a beauty ideal that is Gwen Stefani, Megan Fox and Angelina Jolie. Black women are just not in there. The magazines she reads don’t praise the beauty of black women. When they talk about black women (and it is rare) it is to talk about their bravery, bold choices, bright minds or STRENGTH, but never their beauty. The blogs she likes praise pert white implants and nice, but not too big, asses.

So, I’m essentially a spayed dog to her just an animal to run along side her and keep her company while she ponders the world.

Of course, it’s going to come up one day.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 11:10 am ¶
pololly wrote:

Sorry, also I don’t know how to embed images of the charts but reading through the gallup poll is quite interesting for one reason , I think – looking historically. The majority of Black people have (since the first 1968 poll) always approved of interracial dating and marriage. It went from 56% approving to 85% approving from 1968 to 2007. Whites went from 17% approving to 75% approving.

I find that so interesting, even if we discount the selection bias for a poll of black people in 1968, that’s a huge difference.

I feel like this totally backs up the initial post; of course black people have a complicated relationship with interracial dating/marriage! It’s a totally different phenomenon to them than to the white community! Who still after all this approve of it at lower rates.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 11:10 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Sam: The next time you’re out jogging with her, stand away from her while you’re stretching so that it is (painfully) obvious that YOU are the person being checked out in these situations. Mean? No meaner than dismissing your attractiveness. I mean, who does that?

Secure women celebrate the fabulousness of other women, at least ones that they are friendly with. My two cents, anyway.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 11:59 am ¶
J-Nell wrote:

@pololly – From my personal experience in an interracial relationship, my fiance’s family is way more accepting than mine is/was. (I’m white he’s black) There’s never been any issue about him being with a white woman. My mother on the otherhand had an initial “oh my god! why!?” reaction, and my grandmother still isn’t keen on the fact that we’re about to start a family. Their ignorance hurts me, especially because they are my family. But of course, they don’t see the racist behavior. It’s sad.. Needless to say we spend a lot more time with his side of the family.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 12:22 pm ¶
G Bailey wrote:

I have been married to a white woman for almost 40 years now and I must say that I have encountered most of the issues under discussion here. I have two wonderful and beautiful children. Most people who talk about interracial dating and marriage, those who have not made deep comittments to their partners of different colors–not born of sex or skin/pleasure novelty, could not survive our supper table. There are more important issues confronting us that these games of imaginary cultural borders–that hole is empty; that air is going to kill us; we will be unable to jum through the slowly diminishing aperture of our environmental imperatives unless be begin to see our grand and sustaining similarities.
Early in my life with my wife I think I went out of my way to let it go forth to black women–my black sisters–that they were making a mistake by writing me off. I confronted their anger, resentment their comments of how my life affected our historical paths in the United States. I love the very idea of all women, all colors, shapes and sizes. I just love my partner more than all the rest. I think we suffer most from a lack of historical knowledge; I am not a socialist or a communist but I think the real problem is embedded in the capitalistic view of how all people, especially men and women who have been acculturated in industrial western societies–our real problem is that we have forgotten how to adjust to our human conditions. We respond more to being things, items, or commodities, to be picked off the shelves. Life is short and fleeting and the one thing that I have learned by struggling through the successive layers of the American craziness to get somewhere quickly is that doing so causes you to become static, frozen in the failed ideology of commodity driven romantic love.
As we move on toward the moment when we may or may not encounter an other of greater difference that another homosapien,
I think we waste time playing these dead atrophied games of a less important time.
Yes, I am an unabashed idealist. I have witnessed the projects of the Black Nationalist, Pan-Africanist, Civil Rights and Black Liberation Movements. I have been a beneficiary, and a casualty of ther Black Arts Movement. I have come to realize that Black women have emerged from this stage of a American history as powerful and resilient as any group of women in the history of the world. I also understand how my black sisters have been made to feel when they see me in Target, Dominicks, Walgreens or any other consumer laden space with my wife and children. I want my black sisters to know that I know who I am.
That my wife and I got to this place in our lives by struggle–that it takes struggle to be together– no matter who you are.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 4:19 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@TJ,
What are you going on about? What’s your point here? Could you be a bit clearer but a tad less verbose? Cheers!

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 7:05 pm ¶
AW wrote:

Interesting discussion. In my experience, I find that bm have problems with bw in relationships with white men b/c oftentimes its the black male that loses his identity in an interracial relationship. Most bw in interracial relationships, particularly those with white men, still maintain a strong sense of blackness and a pride in who they are as black women. In turn, this allows the white men they are with to appreciate them as black women.

Mod Note – This skates really close to a generalization, but it’s one I never heard before. And that says a lot. I’ll allow the room to comment as they will. – LDP

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 7:53 pm ¶
Shannon wrote:

I’m a white/hispanic woman and I have personally never felt threatened by interracial couples. I am an equal opportunist dater myself, if the guy is nice and funny and I am attracted to him I will try to date him despite race or ethnicity. One thing I have never understood however was when people only prefer to date one race. I wonder where that comes from? My thing is if you lock yourself in to one type of person you may never find true love, you will just be dating a color or stereotype. I have known a guy who married a girl from Vietnam because he said they were subservient and more feminine (he was white by the way), and I wonder does he even love her. People should try to open themselves up to new things and people, because we are a country of mixed races and I think that is truly a beautiful thing.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 8:20 pm ¶
creole tomato wrote:

“That my wife and I got to this place in our lives by struggle–that it takes struggle to be together–
no matter who you are.”

Black women and their non-black significant others are also fighting to make it.

Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 8:56 pm ¶
JasonS wrote:

Doesn’t matter if it’s WW to BW/WM, or BW towards WW/BM. At it’s core, it’s all the same tribalism/primitivism. No group “owns” another, etc.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 12:07 am ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:

@ AW I’ll bite.

Interesting point as I think some people might refer to that as the “OJ” syndrome. It is a broad generalization–however it is one I suspect that comes from high profile, rich black men like OJ who essentially seem move in all white social circles, especially after they marry white. It seems as though they divorce themselves from black society until its necessary or relevant to them.

I’m going to probably say this the wrong way, but bear with me.

There’s the perception that a white man dates (or marries)a black woman, in spite of her blackness– and black man dates( or marries ) a white woman in appreciation and awe of her whiteness.

Then there’s the idea that a white woman ups her hipness and shows how free a thinker; or how liberated she is by being with that black man— but a black woman might feel a need to assert her blackness because her choice is deemed as traiterous by a lot of people.

In addition I think there’s the appearance of black women seeming to hold on more to their identity simply because, black women have not sought out white men for mates in the same wayblack men seek white women as mates so the choice does not come with as many built in assumptions about her trying to negate blackness in some way.

Because some black men so specifically and in many cases ONLY pursue white women, there is the perception he’s at the same time running AWAY from his blackness in some way.

Then there’s the kids…

In a lot of families kids tend to have more exposure to their mother’s side of the family, especially if the marriage goes bust. And mothers often have the most early influence in child rearing as opposed to dads.

When a white woman is a mother to biracially black and white children it is often perceived that those children get more exposure to, and are– for a lack of a better term– more indoctrinated with “whiteness” and are less in touch, familiar, or proud of their black heritage as a result.

Conversely, there is the perception that when the child’s mother is black, there is more exposure to black heritage simply because the primary child rearing is most likely being done by the black parent.

Obviously this is not true of all biracial black and white couplings– but of my friends where the the mother is black and the father is white those kids do seem to be more aligned and aware of their black heritage and their mothers essentially raise them “black”– if there is such a thing.

Those raised by white mothers, especially white mothers divorced from the black father and/or remarried to white men seem to be more of the variety of not wanting to identify with any one race or see themselves as being more white unless they are darker complexioned.

I may be moderated out, but those are things your statement made me think of.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 12:30 am ¶
jerkygirl wrote:

@ c. n. edaw, #78
I would LOVE to look like Oprah (a big woman who knows how to look gorgeous at any size, ok, she can afford MUCH nicer clothes than me, but still), Cicely Tyson (beautiful at every age), Jill Scott (an all around goddess), and lots and lots of other beautiful Black women, including and especially my friends. Now you have.
As for the topic, I think that all the reasons given above are certainly true, but I also think it can come from just plain old “you ain’t supposed to mix the races!!!” bigotry. I live in Central PA, and I don’t know if anyone’s from there and knows what I mean, but we aren’t exactly a cosmopolitan area (translation: we’re a bunch of Clem Clodhopper rednecks) and a lot of people still just find the whole idea of IR dating shocking, even if they “have black friends,” etc. I even knew a guy who swore it was in the BIBLE that IR dating was a sin, although he couldn’t seem to find the passage when I asked him to prove it. Hmm. . . I’ve lived here all my life and that’s a lot of what I see. Of course, that’s not all of it I think the jealousy/competition thing has already been put a lot better than I can say it. It’s too bad that so often we women find ourselves being jealous COMPETITORS rather than jealous ADMIRERS (sorry about the caps but I don’t know how to do italics). it’s 1:00am, I’d better go before I REALLY start rambling. Thank you for the as always interesting and thought-provoking post.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 1:06 am ¶
Emmeaki wrote:

pololly wrote:

By the way, according to a 2007 Gallup poll, in the US, blacks more likely than whites to approve of black-white unions.

This makes sense because I remember when I was growing up, I knew plenty of mixed (black/white) kids with white mothers who lived in my predominantly black community with no connection to any other white people (besides their mothers).

I had a couple of mixed friends whose (white) grandparents had disowned their mothers for marrying black men. These white women with mixed children were always accepted by blacks.

There were even some white kids who grew up in my neighborhood and they talked, dressed, styled their hair, etc. like the black kids around them. We (blacks) always accepted them.

So often, this kind of acceptance doesn’t happen the other way around.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 2:15 am ¶
superchunk12 wrote:

Speak of the devil and he will appear:

In my class (Intro to Soc.) today, we were having this very discussion, and a white student thought he would show how “down” he was and seek to commiserate with me on how white women are stealing all the black men. When i retorted with a “Unless he or she owes me money, i don’t care.”
That sent him into blinking silence. and then one of my students piped up “She doesn’t care because her boyfriends white!” another one piped up “No he’s not, he’s Hispanic and so is she!” It went on in a bit of confusion for a while and it actually helped me drive home the sociological concept of the non existence of biological race (different Bat Time and Bat Station). All this ranting ends in the moral of the story being black women are definitely NOT the only women and or people who have problems with interracial dating.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 3:19 am ¶
bijou wrote:

@Pheagan:

I used to work with a lot of people in the Foreign Service, and my friends and I noticed that it was much, much easier for F.S. men to date women from the countries they were posted in, while most women dated in the F.S./American communities. Part of this, I think, is that men in other countries MAY expect women to fit into gender roles that are more traditional than contemporary American ones, and the sort of women who join the Foreign Service / go to teach English abroad for a year / etc. may not be willing to adhere to those roles. I’ve never been to Korea, so I can’t speak to the situation there, but I wonder if that doesn’t come into play?

As a white woman dating a South Asian man, I’ve noticed a few people giving us the look. Most of the looks I personally pick up on come from South Asians. I’m not sure it’s out of the fact that such a pairing is relatively uncommon, or because people have preconceptions about what such a relationship entails.

I’ve also noticed that South Asians my age (college-age to mid-twenties) who are really involved in the South Asian community sometimes are a lot more interested in getting to know me once they find out that my boyfriend’s Indian / I speak Hindi /etc. It’s as if I have some kind of cred that I didn’t have before – which kind of breaks my heart, because I’m the same person no matter who I’m dating, and I’d like to think it didn’t matter, but I know it does.

I’ve also had my relationship commented on by black men – we were walking down the street together in Miami and as we walked past a group of black men, one of them made a comment to the effect of “Nice! Baggin’ the white girl.” I’ll admit to laughing at the bluntness of it, but it sure doesn’t make you feel like much of a whole person when it happens.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 3:39 am ¶
Hokayshenao wrote:

I have noticed that African American woman are not always the people who disapprove of mixed relationships. I have received prejudice sentiment from a variety of races and sizes of people. Body language and non-verbal disapproval is what I seem to notice rather quickly. If I show some affection toward a girl of another race it seems like I notice one person who may disapprove of interracial relationships. I think this has more to do with me and not so much of who’s watching me . I think too much about the stress of having a mixed family to even find a special person of a different race. I think about a long term appreciation for Asian culture even though I am American. I have dark- skin and feel caucasian on the inside. I feel like helping others with their prejudice toward interracial relationships is worth the effort aside from my own desire for a wife. I enjoy eating oreos.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 9:05 am ¶
jc wrote:

I find this dicussion to be both fascinating and disturbing. fascinating inthat i am able to see the wide variety of opinions relative to different races, genders and ethnicities. D isturbing because there are generalizations being made that have gone unchallenged. The notion that white men are attracted to black women for the “right” reasons and white women for the wrong ones is self -serving and beyond cynical. I am not impressed by white men who “date” black women only to eventually marry white ones. This is extremely common and was highlighted during the Presedential campaign with Andrew Young’s infamous remark regarding bill Bill Clinton’s being just as black as Barack Obama because he has “been with” more black women. The key is that when it was time to choose a wife he, like countless other white men, chose a white woman. I find it interesting that while the U.S. census shows 94% of black men marry black women, there is this perception that black men have no interest in black women. This number RISES slightly among black men earning over $100,000 annually. Interesting.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 12:13 pm ¶
ersommo wrote:

i am a white american (italian/jewish) woman dating a mexican man. i live in a pretty white city and i don’t know very many people in interracial relationships. i have to admit that i often stare (and am tempted to strike up conversation with) interracial couples that i pass on the street or meet casually. i think the interracial (and inter-privilege/class in my case) thing is a really interesting part of a relationship and i’m dying to have someone to talk to about it… however, i must also say that my white sister (also italian/jewish) has more “cultural” conflicts- (like how loud one should be, how loyal to family, how critical) with her white (anglo) boyfriend than we do…

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 12:47 pm ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:

jc wrote

” I find it interesting that while the U.S. census shows 94% of black men marry black women, there is this perception that black men have no interest in black women. This number RISES slightly among black men earning over $100,000 annually. Interesting.”

This fact is always trotted out and I have no reason to believe that it is untrue. Perception became reality simply because there are SO MANY SINGLE BLACK WOMEN.

Also, I have never seen those numbers broken down by age. What I mean is that– most black couples I know are over the age of 45 or so. As we get into the 20’s and 30’s I know fewer black couples– I just turned 30.

People come to feel the way they do from their own personal experiences–which can dangerously evolve into generalization which is not good and I know that– however what people experience on day in day out level becomes more important than what any statistic says.

In my teens, during the whole “black men shortage” crisis era, I was among those thinking it was a bunch of hooey as all my black male classmates were college bound and doing well.

My friends and I laughed our asses off at the ridiculousness of “Waiting To Exhale” and even “Jungle Fever”

Now ,granted most of the black boys in my suburban school dated only white girls–but if my black girlfriends and I traveled outside the burbs we could usually find black boys. I thought it would always be that way into adulthood.

Now the change in perception for ME ocurred in college. At my large predominately white university my freshman year there were 1,000 black kids on a predominately white campus of about 22k. That number dropped to 800 by second semester and then to a little more than 400 (in my class) by sophomore year. This trend was similar with each class afterward.

Guess who was left on campus? A whole bunch of black girls and only a handful of black guys if you counted in the athletes! Black women were already in the majority when we had the 1,000 but the black men seemed to drop off like flies semester after semester.

What do you think that does to the dating pool or your perception of it?? Not a lot for the black woman.

The athletes are pursued by ALL woman on campus and it’s uderstood only a “top tier” in looks black girl can get at one of those guys.

Once I got out of school, myself and most of the black women I know were establishing ourselves in careers. I am usually the only black person in my company so I don’t meet black men at work.

The bulk of my career has been in cities where there were not a lot of black people, period. When I would go out , increasingly I would see black men I might be interested in dating only to find they had white girlfriends.

I eventually gave up on seeking out men of “similar income’ or “educational” status to find the same story or things that complicated relationships further like ex wives and multiple children— responsibilites I did not want in my early 20’s.

Now, I am in a drought where a black man has not expressed interest in me in 5 years. Seriously. It’s that bad. At black functions (and yes church too) the women always outnumber the men so greatly that is usually a pointless endeavor to even seek out other blacks other than for networking and mutual inerests.

However, for 5 years now I have blamed it all on location. If I moved to a more diverse city things would be different. Working on moving right now, actually.

But then all my black girlfriends in NYC, Dallas, L.A. report similar stories…so I deduced that perception is strong for some reason.

However, I don’t blame black men or black men who date white women. I blame the numbers– and they are not on our side. Period.
More than half the black women in my sorority between the ages of 30-35 now, are single and not dating or dating rarely. The only ones who are married either married their college beaus OR someone signifigantly older who had been married before.

On the other hand– I average about three weddings a month between April and September amongst my white girlfriends, many of whom are younger than me.

That does a number on your self esteem and perception. It shouldn’t, but it does.

And then some white woman will point out how its not easy for them and make some “Sex and the City’ reference…but I find the difference is white women are at least dating regularly. They may not be dating who they want, but they are dating an awful lot cuz the numbers are on THEIR side.

An awful lot of black women are not dating at all. And that colors perception, very negatively, no matter what those stats say.

And I have dated interracially–but as you alluded to in your post– I can find plenty of white men who want to date me, but have yet to meet one who can overcome the pressure of friends or family and be in the type of relationship that might lead to marriage. That also colors my perception, which also may not necessarily jive with any stats.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 3:01 pm ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:

@ jerkygirl..today you became the first and the only to make such a statement. So congrats, for whatever that’s worth

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 3:09 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:

@c.n. edaw co-sign. Though I live in DC, and there are black folks here, you and I are in the same position.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 5:26 pm ¶
jerkygirl wrote:

@ c.n. edaw
I apologize, because I just re-read my post and I’m afraid it sounded like I was trying to be flippant or funny about something that obviously causes a lot of hurt. I only wanted to say that there are a lot of beautiful Black women that I admire, because they are beautiful and admirable. I think YOU, in fact, are beautiful and admirable, and I don’t have any idea what you look like but I’ve read a lot of your posts, and there are a lot of other women who post here who I think are very beautiful and admirable too. I’m ashamed that more of us don’t say so, not because WOC need our validation or anything, but because so many of us can’t see past our own misguided ideas of our own importance that we cause hurt to a lot of women who we should love as sisters, not fear as rivals or competitors or anything else that equals less than love. Again, I apologize for my flippant post, and I’ll think a lot harder about the language I use before I post again. May God bless and be with you.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 6:31 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

I think this issue for me boils down to a very simple point. If a person chooses to date from one group alone, then that’s the choice that person has made for their own life. That person will either enjoy the blessings or suffer the consequence of that choice that they’ve made (low numbers etc). Essentially, it’s that person’s own personal business alone. I personally don’t care about who or what some other woman is dating. It’s got nothing to do with me. I resent and vehemently reject this false sense of entitlement or ownership through which certain individuals think that because you’re black, you have to make yourself available to them and them only. I didn’t get that memo and that’s not what I believe in. We can invoke all sorts of grandiose arguments all day long but the fact that I and I alone (and the prospective partner has a say as well) will determine who my partner will be, cannot be overlooked or argued away.

Posted 16 Jun 2009 at 8:15 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

I think I said this in another post but I will emphasize these points again with some context.

In my more youthful years, I did have a sense of ownership for black women. I would be in total shock when I saw WM with BW. For example, I remember when I was around 9 years old when my mother brought home a WM she had been dating. I opened the door kicked this WM in the shinns and asked him what did he need with my mother. The reason for this hostility stemmed from my observations of white supremacy.

The movie “Roots” had a significant impact on my thinking. So even as a child, I was aware of white supremacy and black inferiority.

White institutional authority for an observant black male child is real and may skew his perspective.

So my first encounter of a WM with BW was actually my mother. Moreover, WM have always been attracted to my mother so I grew up with this.

As a young adult, my hostility poured over almost into physical confrontations with WM being with BW. This was a reflection of growing up in rough areas where disputes are resolved through physical confrontation.

However, I have matured beyond that as a professional and do not see anything wrong with these relationships.

Again, I now see these relationships as reaffriming my tastes in women. I no longer look at BW with disdain who date WM. I consider it a compliment to black people (please no tired ownership argument) and BW that non-blacks see the inner and outer beauty of BW.

Posted 17 Jun 2009 at 10:38 am ¶
Christine wrote:

I’m not the only black woman that I know who has had a black man either insist that she must be mixed with something and/or show visible disappointment at her monoethnic background.

Cosign on this. Nothing irritates me more than when a guy (so far it’s only black guys who do this) comes up to me and the first thing he says is “So what are you?” or “Are you half-Chinese or something?” It’s like the most vital information for them is my ethnic makeup, not even my bloody name. And then the look of disappointment when I say I’m African-American or black. Like their looking to score “exotic points” and before wasting time on me they need to know if i’m “exotic” enough. I wonder why dating an “exotic” woman is such a goal for some men, especially black men. I sometimes get the feeling that they think they’re too “advanced” or sophisticated for black women. I hope that not true, b/c LOL

Posted 17 Jun 2009 at 3:23 pm ¶
concreteRoze wrote:

great article! it is rare to find an article dealing with this subject, and alot of the posts were very insightful. unfortunately i CAN relate to it, it has happened to me and it happens, though not very often. this is a very taboo subject in this country, black female sexuality and attractiveness, one that has been swept under the rug, but I have noticed for whatever reason, people seem to need to insult and try to degrade black females, i can see this in everything from hip hop to imus’s comments and further comments on our now first lady Michelle Obama, not to mention internet forums. for whatever reason, alot of people fear black female sexuality and power, her being attractive in a broad sense is threatening to alot of people. and not just white people. i have witnessed it in black men, white men white women, asians, etc. the stereotype of a loud ignorant, fat, angry black female is one that people like to push. I think alot of it has to do with the fact that the average black female is simply non apologetic about who she is. White men to this day still promote and “pimp” their woman to the world. they are only too glad when black men accept it as truth that white women are more attractive, nice and decent. im not talking about all of course, but the white power structure in general. It cannot uplift the black woman because in turn that will uplift the black man and black people, this is not just rhetoric im talking its a FACT of this society, sorry to say but it is.

I have dated a few types of men in my life, white included, who have been very non apologetic and open about being attracted to me, and i wondered what kind of household spawned this type of white man, who can somehow ignore white indoctrination and see the beauty in a dark skinned almond eyed woman like myself. its simple, because at the end of the day, men ar emen. not all whit emen are alike or black men or vice versa, but still to find the average american male ( race not important)who has not bought into white standards of beauty is difficult

when white women display their obvious lack of “cool” at looking shocked or annoyed when seeing me on the arm of a white male, that used to puzzle me, after all, what did they have to lose, in alot of ways, statistically at least, they are lucky. when we date one of theirs, whats the big deal, when they date one of ours, that often is truly felt in the community.

we are just coming from 2 different worlds, like many posters mentioned, women in general have our insecurities and hang ups at the end of the day, no matter the race. and men, especially white men in general, have exhibited these sexist classist preferences for one over the other that pit us against each other. after all, didnt white men put white women on this pedestal , but at the same time stepped out on them with slave women, deny them voting rights, and more recently choosing asian women as ideal mates. so trust me, white women have their issues 2.

i am all for love, in any color, but i am a realist, and i know that it can complicate things in a society where socio economic levels are color coded. as a black woman i have felt the sting of racism, i have been exoticized, which is just as non flattering, and i know that for the average sister out here trying to find a “good man” its no joke.

to those white women who may /would look down on a black woman out there with a white man, ( i am in no way implying ALL white women) please examine your feelings
of superiority over this woman, and why they are there. you may have more in common with this woman than you think.

Posted 17 Jun 2009 at 3:34 pm ¶
c.n. edaw wrote:

@ jerky girl

I was not at all offended by your post. Obviously the tone of what I said was misinterpreted. I was just pointing out that up to this point you would be the ONLY white woman I know who would claim to want to look like or admire the looks of an overweight black woman or a black woman whose looks are not somewhat racially ambiguous.

That’s not to say that I don’t know white women who say Orpah dresses nice or looks good on her show, but still they’d rather look like Jennifer Aniston if given a choice between the two.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 1:45 am ¶
mariann wrote:

@ #96: You are so right. I’ve had white friends say in front of me that if they couldn’t have kids they’d adopt a mixed kid so their child’s color would be just right. Really? So I’m too dark, yes? Womp womp. So yeah, I’m gonna say that I’m not feeling the whole “ww-wanna-be-black” argument.

I hang out with men of all color at my school (yay for int’l students!), so I get all kinds of strange looks. I get ignored when I’m hanging with black guys; intrigued/interested looks when hanging with Indian, Arab or Asian guys; prolonged stares when I’m with guys who look white, regardless of their cultural background. It’s really quite silly to me, but ppl really do get confused when they see a glamazonian black chick doing her thing with anybody and everybody. It doesn’t bother me, because every action of mine is committed to fulfilling my happiness, regardless of others’ thoughts. If you* can’t understand why I’m chillin’ next to some guy and you’re not, even though you “know you’re better than me”, then that’s the reason why you’re not over here chillin’ too. Sounds like your logic sucks as much as you do.

*(’you’ being a VERY general term.)

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 2:58 am ¶
browne wrote:

“I think you’re making a lot of generalizations about natural hair.

The movement toward natural hair is rooted somewhat in the middle class /upper middle class existence, but there is a reason they sell things like shea butter in the Muslim owned shops or the natural food stores/hair stores. ..” Latoya

I don’t think you understand the spirit in which I said what I said. I know my audience here. I know who reads this. In general who do we have here. The educated, the middle class, the college educated or currently being college educated. How many around the way girls do we have here? Probably not many. Too many times I’ve seen one opinion on the natural hair vs processed hair conversation in more often than not its the more economically secure group of women of color leading the conversation and I don’t think it’s fair.

I don’t think its fair that we get to sit and judge our sisters in the inner city just because they have a weave. It’s just a hairstyle. It’s petty. And the muslim part of it in LA has long been separated from the natural hair black woman.

To me just like many people talk about how just one perspective is shown in the video game world white and male I think on the same hand pretty much one black experience is represented online and the self righteousness of it all is a little annoying. You think in general some girl from the projects gives a crap about what people outside the community thinks or what white women think about her no, but we have to have these type of conversations about interracial dating and how great natural hair is over and over again because this is what middle class and college educated black women LOVE talking about.

I used to think these were deep conversations, but now I think it’s just shallow. If this is your biggest problem your life must be amazingly easy. You have a boyfriend, but some other woman is looking at you funny because the boyfriend is of a different race. I mean you have a boyfriend, he likes you, but you need to find something to stress over, so lets stress over a person who doesn’t even know you. I don’t know yeah it’s a real issue, but if you are ok with yourself its kind of not.

I work in Compton do you know not one time has the conversation come up in regards to interracial dating or the issues with it, except when my white boyfriend came by to pick me up one day, up until that moment their issues were things I pretty much never read online and I wonder why and I realize because they aren’t here. Not in large numbers.

Do you think black women in Compton or Watts think they are the least desirable women on the planet? I’m going to guess no that’s some middle class nonsense. Putting people on a scale of if you are datable or not and then another person actually caring and thinking about this in their daily life. It’s just dumb. And I’m sort of sick of reading about it here, because really up until I read that I had no idea I was at the bottom and you know I still don’t believe it just like I don’t think my best friend is fat no matter how many times she insists she needs to lose ten pounds.

This place maybe more diverse in some ways but in other ways its not much different that Feministing. I like it, because it does speak to me in lots of ways, but what about that woman that rides the bus in LA or lives in the projects. I find her issues just as fascinating and valid.

Am I saying this place should change, no, but you know I am just putting those thoughts out there.

I don’t know if I have to read how I suck some more I don’t know what’s the point of coming here? I mean really its very negative all of it. And I don’t think my life is all that horrible, but if I read this every day and believed it I would really hate being a black woman. It’s like the black women on this site have no joy in their life. It doesn’t suck that bad being a black woman it really doesn’t. It’s actually kick ass most of the time as is being an Asian woman, a white woman, a Latina, etc….

Browne

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 3:55 am ¶
Hm wrote:

Think i’ve said it more than once (It not social condition it called Female competition ) man compete against each other . And it not consider social conditioning. But woman compete and it consider social conditions(That a value judgements , and regardless of moral condemination it still occurs . )

. This fantasy of global sisterhood is simply that a fantasy and always has been . Woman are competing and There racism involved along with social biological competitio between woman for mates and a highly materialistic capitalist culture . So your in a constant state of hostility . It not that complicated . Along with historical trauma and racism and conflicts between different culture .

At it core (Dating ) It Social Competition for mates combined with Racism interrelated by the social hierarchy . (It social biology and Social hierarchy reacting to each other ) . And for the most part there is benefits in being in a group over being individuals (It not always ownerships , ) . I’ve always despised this nonsense from sociological theories about the “Individual” culture take care of the individual .But the Entire baises of US power is based on a Massive advantage of having a White Middle-class . So If I look at the history of the USA and Europe there seem to be a massive psychological advantage to being a massive group with a single identity . And you wonder why people would give up there identity ? for some nonsense about individuality coming to save people and liberate humanity .

. If anything there is a massive psychological advantage to being in a Group . While an lone individual is simply a target . And human beings default to tribalism when fear and competition is invovled work . Competition brings out the worse in people , there no reason to give a damn about another person if your under threat in a competition . It just common sense

People need to let go of this Political correct fantasy people are just going to “Individuals ” and somehow escape a system simply by describing bad things about it .I seriously feel sociology would benefit from including actual studies of social biology and evolutionary theory into actual helping them solve problems ((Might help to actually look at the limits of human behavior and see what you can do to fix problem and how to reduce hostility between groups ) Rather than going to the deep edge of idealism I can transcend it mythical by being an individual,

I find that better than t giving a descriptive accounts of conflict there unable to react to or do anything to modify the problem. Tend to boil down into gossip and moral talk with little effect on any of the forces at work.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 4:47 am ¶
J. wrote:

yet another white american male, married to a brown woman (mixed south asian + caribbean, not that it matters in the least…). all of my adult life relationships prior to marriage were with women of other races. in all cases, including with my wife, racism and descrimination from outside, against one or both of us was an issue. it never ends.

inter-racial relationships are amazingly enriching and rewarding, and (in my humble opinion) might even help make the world a better place. in the meantime, though, i wish others would just get with the times and accept that inter-racial relationships are a fact of life. staring or making obliquely racist comments is not going to turn that tide.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 4:55 am ¶
InternationalAdoptee wrote:

I’m adopted from Thailand and here in Denmark where I’ve been obese most of my adult years I’ve not really experienced any jealousy from white women until two years ago when I lost weight and I’ve only recently become aware of it. At the two last functions my husband and I went to where there were people who knew us quite well and who used to sit with us and talk to us, we suddenly found ourselves alone for the entire evening in both cases. The first was a company function and the second was a school dinner pot luck.

Some of the white women are slim and attractive (or so I think) and I easily feel ugly next to them. I wouldn’t perceive myself as a thread even if I’d been single.

I’m with a man who happens to be white because I fell for HIM. Most men around here happen to be white in fact, you’ll be hard pressed to find a man who isn’t white, my family is white and I’ve always been attracted to boy-next-door types who around here are all white.

The hilarious part to me is when in my 20s another woman of SE Asian origin and I sent the other one the “she’s probably paid for” glare and then we both talk really loudly in fluent Danish just to make it clear to anyone who may have noticed us and care, that we’re not like the other one since we obviously speak fluently Danish. Thhis happened more than a handful of times. Most of the women I’ve glared at are probably adoptees like myself. I’ve yet to meet Asians who weren’t adopted who speak fluently Danish without a trace of accent. It shouldn’t matter. Of course neither one of us is more than the other nor does either one of us have more rights to be with a white Danish man than the other one and neither one should have to justify why we are with the person we are more than anyone else.

I don’t assume anything else of other Asian women with white men anymore but Istill get glares from other Asian women or the over friendly ones who feel like we should be friends just because we’re both Asian women with white men. Asian women are more likely to be jealous and possesive with their white men than white women are with their white men in my experience.

I think the above mentioned Asian women are insulting their men. Surely they don’t assume that their man would fancy any Asian woman, or do they?! So in my experience I’ve had tension with other Asian women than with white women.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 5:46 am ¶
B. Nat wrote:

This article brings to mind a fairly recent tragedy that has been all over NYC and California papers for quite some time now:

A young, interracial marine couple (the young man, Polish-American and his wife, Black) were brutally tortured, the wife sexually assaulted, before both were murdered by their assailants (who were also marines). The killers then spray painted racial epithets like “N–er Lover” inside the home.

My initial reaction was obviously one of disgust; and, I will be honest, I made a complaint to a friend that many White-American men were still stuck in that ‘anti-miscegenation’ mindset that screamed Reconstruction Era and Jim Crowe mentality.

Then I realized that the killers were four Black men. I was utterly speechless. I was ashamed that I had automatically assumed that these men were White.

I am not sure where I am going with this exactly, so feel free to ‘pick my brain’ if you must, but I think this horrific case raises a host of complex issues that I myself had never considered too deeply until now and has pulled my mind in all sorts of directions…

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 5:06 pm ¶
Cccc wrote:

@ c.n. edaw Yes! That was exactly how it was in my family. I know that you were careful not to generalize, but I’d agree with you for the most part. My mother who is black is very proud of her blackness and raised me with the notion that I was black instead of multiracial. My dad (Samoan and Italian), too, didn’t see anything wrong with her bringing me up that way partly because I believe he saw me as his “black” child. He just accepted that I was going to be seen as black by other people.

You especially hit the nail on the head with this one:

“There’s the perception that a white man dates (or marries)a black woman, in spite of her blackness– and black man dates( or marries ) a white woman in appreciation and awe of her whiteness. ”

I go to school with so many black guys who exclusively date white girls and purposely exclude me in social settings. Like, when I’m with my (white) friends and a black guy we know comes up to us, I always get a great view of the back of his head while he’s chatting up a storm my friends, even though Iknow! I stand out in our group of girls (I’m brown in a sea of white. He can’t miss me! rofl!). That same guy will also refuse to make eye contact with me like I’m going to reveal him and his blackness or something. wtf! Apparently, these guys like being the “charming black guy” in the social circle. I’m beginning to think they ignore me because they’re afraid I might start becoming attracted to them. Because only black women date black men, right? No one else would want a black woman, right? A black woman has only the black man as a dating option, riiight? It’s really annoying that this particular type of black guy (generally collegiate and generally arrogant) feels they have to detach themselves from me (and other black women) as if talking to, befriending, or just being around black ol’ me is going to ruin their likability among their white friends and potential (white) girlfriends. Seriously, I don’t care.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 10:38 pm ¶
Hibbs4Prez wrote:

Why do black women get a bad rap for this? Because black women make an industry out of it in books, TV, music, movies, etc. Even though black men and black women date less outside of the race than other racial groups in America, black women have too often been over the top in their reaction to a black man and a white woman hooking up (in real life or as characters). Its asburd and annoying. And those actions stereotypes black females as being a bunch of angry, eye-rolling, loud mouth whiners. I’m sure loads of white ldies are ticked off that white men end up with so mnay Asian women (by percentages (not simply actual numbers) this occurs much more often than black men-white women). But they don’t make an industry of it. They aren’t writing novels of no-good, self-hating white men who betray their white queens by dating a bunch of no-good Asian girls. That isn’t that big of a concern to them. But when the WPost did a survey over ten years ago about the number one issue that black women are concerned over, the number one or perhaps number two concern (I can’t exactly remember anymore) was black amles dating white females. I mean are you serious? Not career barriers? Not health issues? Not crime? Not racism? But black men dating/marrying white ladies?!? Ridiculous. A black woman is FAR more likely to lose a potential black male mate to prison than to a white woman.

Of course all of this hand-wringing by black women allows the true culprit to be overlooked. White males are still more likley to inflict violence on an IR couple. White guys are still the ones who are most likely to send threatning letters to celebrities in iR relationships as well as to TV shows and studios that present IR relationships (in particular when its a black man and a white woman).

Posted 19 Jun 2009 at 6:11 pm ¶
tailspinner wrote:

I just have two points to make

(1) It feels as though personal encounters have degraded somewhat into a generalization about all white women having a superiority complex. How can we ever expect to be equal if we assume from the start that all white people are inherently flawed in a way that doesn’t allow equality.

(2) My sister is dating a Korean Man, several Asian women have said to her “Hey, we date white guys, you don’t get to date our guys”. Notwithstanding the fact that we are half native, this has bothered both of them, he usually responds to Asians making racist comments and my sister responds to everyone else.

Posted 21 Jun 2009 at 7:14 pm ¶
c.n.edaw wrote:

About your first point; for me personally it is exactly that fact which makes responding to some of these articles/posts very difficult.

I think most people responding try to make it clear that they are relating an incident specific to them; but when a lot of people have very similar experiences and say so–you are right it can devolve dangerously into generalization and stereotyping. It’s also why racial issues are rarely discussed in polite company; but I digress.

However, I don’t personally believe white women are inherently flawed and was not intending to give that impression

A society that holds white women to a certain standard, often putting them on a pedestal, is what is flawed.

If you are constantly told that you are some ideal, then you most likely will spend your life trying to prove that you are worthy of that designation and trying to remain atop that pedestal, which manifests itself in a variety of ways–like eating disorders and the fact that despite only something like two percent of the population is born blonde, you would never know it looking at most white women.

Posted 21 Jun 2009 at 9:42 pm ¶
jc wrote:

#136 you are 100% correct. The huge gap between the perception and reality of black men and white women is baffling. A very intelligent black woman in grad school recently told me she believes 80 % of black men are married to or involved with white women! I told her the actual numbers and she said I was crazy. I believe that when black women see black celebrity men with white women those men and their preferences immediately become representative of all black men. When 94% of black men are falling in love with and marrying black women and there are educated black women saying black men only want white women, one has to wonder what is going on. I believe this is an example of what happens when a myth/lie is not challenged and allowed to dominate the feelings and thoughts of an entire group of people. The reality is that the vast majority of black men have a strong preference for light skinned black women and this is actually the real problem because they are not able to fully appreciate the amazing diversity of beauty in black women. It should be pointed out that this type of thinking is not limited to black men. I know of more than a few black women who STRONGLY discourage their sons from dating dark skinned women. The primary reason being the skin tone of their future babies. By the time every little black boy is 10 years old he knows that two dark skinned people can not have a ” beautiful” child. This is often reinforced by hearing how beautiful the offspring of interracial couples are. My point is we need to stop pointing fingers and accept responsibility for not creating a strategy to resist a system that teaches us that dark skin is not beautiful.

Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 1:22 pm ¶
Randall wrote:

I am a White man who is in a long term relationship with a beautiful Black woman. From my own experience I can say that we have taken the most bullshit from Black guys and White girls. Unfortunately some people tend to take out their insecutities on people they don’t understand and threaten them.
I have dated all types of women. So I didn’t fall in love with my girlfriend because she was black. I fell in love with her because she is one of the few women I have dated who is honest and trustworthy and a reliable partner.
There is more to life than the color of a persons skin.

Posted 23 Jun 2009 at 6:34 pm ¶
Mossimo wrote:

I agree completely with this post as a white man married to an African woman in America. My wife noticed immediately that white women would completely ignore her in my presence in a neutral social situation. For example, at the bank, or grocery store the teller or cashier would only address me, and act as if my wife is not present even though we are very clearly there as a couple.

Another friend of mine, a woman from Africa, hit on the mentality of white women when she said they believe they are at the top of the dating chain while the white woman believes the black women is on the bottom of the chain. Hence, the threat to the white woman’s status.

Posted 30 Jun 2009 at 7:37 am ¶
GT wrote:

I hope it’s ok with the blog owner if I post this:
If you’re a black woman interested in dating interracially, there is a blog that will be helpful for you called “For The Sistas.” It also has posts on dating for black Christian women. Some of the posts are a bit long, but they aren’t any longer than the cover story of a magazine article and I really do think they’ll be useful to you. The blog address is ForTheSistas (dot) blogspot (dot) com. By the way, the blog also has information on dating men from Europe.

Black women need to get off this black-man-only band wagon because, for too many, it obviously is not working. I’m not saying don’t date black men, just expand your options. Please forward this to other black women you know.

Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 1:53 am ¶
Someone wrote:

All of these problems with inter-”racial” relationships are the result of white supremacy.

All human beings are beautiful and there should not be any hierarchies built around skin color, eye color, shape, lips, noses, hair texture, etc. But, in a white supremacy certain features are valued more highly than others.

As a European American male, what bothers me is when Euro-American men date women of color to fulfill a stereotype. This is racism–they are not trying to get to know the women (or man), but they are trying to live out a deep-seated racist stereotype (e.g., black women are “jezebels” or Latinas are hot-tempered seductresses).

Are they trying to get to know the person to honor and respect them? Will they get serious? Will they marry? Will they be strong enough to withstand the stares, glances, and other consequences of interpersonal racism that they will face daily?

Posted 07 Jul 2009 at 5:39 am ¶
Destinee wrote:

As a black women who has dated interracially her entire life, I could care less what people think. Growing up on military bases was a totally different society. It was not until I entered the civilian world that I realized how much hatred there is out there for interracial love.

Just today, a white women with biracial kids looked at me for my reaction. When my biracial kids came in behind me she looked surprised and ceased eye contact. Moments later I said hello to a black woman and she refused to speak.

Whatever. People are crazy and I am not limiting myself to any particular race of men. My love has nothing to do with history. The past is going nowhere, so we really should get off that train. I don’t care if white women think they special treatment, and I feel sorry for black women who limit themselves for the very community that could care less about them, even valuing them on the shade of their skin. Black women need to wake up and white women need to take a deep breath. It’s not about you and it never will be.

I eating at a diner with my family and a black woman came in with her children. She promptly sat behind me and called me and oreo several times throughout the meal. It hurt me but I got over it. She however was there with four kids and herself. She was being hurt by the men she is trying to protect. I never felt like I needed to protect any man, rather I needed a man to protect my family. I can’t say that she had no man, but she was not the only black woman alone with her children the diner. It was depressing. As women we bear the burden of life. I’d suggest entering a relationship with a man who can care for you regardless of race. We have tricked black women into being so strong that we often can’t admit to our weaknesses and that is only to our detriment.

Posted 08 Jul 2009 at 1:54 pm ¶
Destinee wrote:

As a black women who has dated interracially her entire life, I could care less what people think. Growing up on military bases was a totally different society. It was not until I entered the civilian world that I realized how much hatred there is out there for interracial love.

Just today, a white women with biracial kids looked at me for my reaction. When my biracial kids came in behind me she looked surprised and ceased eye contact. Moments later I said hello to a black woman and she refused to speak.

Whatever. People are crazy and I am not limiting myself to any particular race of men. My love has nothing to do with history. The past is going nowhere, so we really should get off that train. I don’t care if white women think they deserve special treatment. Being white is not a disability, hop in line with everyone else on the planet. I feel sorry for black women who limit themselves for the very community that could care less about them, even valuing them on the shade of their skin. Black women need to wake up and white women need to take a deep breath. It’s not about you and it never will be.

I was eating at a diner with my family and a black woman came in with her children. She promptly sat behind me and called me and oreo several times throughout the meal. It hurt me but I got over it. She however was there with four kids and herself. She was being hurt by the men she is trying to protect. I never felt like I needed to protect any man, rather I needed a man to protect my family. I can’t say that she had no man, but she was not the only black woman alone with her children the diner. It was depressing. As women we bear the burden of life. I’d suggest entering a relationship with a man who can care for you regardless of race. We have tricked black women into being so strong that we often can’t admit to our weaknesses and that is only to our detriment.

Posted 08 Jul 2009 at 2:24 pm ¶
Candice wrote:

Well.. I’m white. And I’m female. I’ve dated any number of men from a variety of backgrounds. (What can I say? I like relationships and I find getting to know new people really interesting!) The biggest point of negativity I encountered came from people who assumed it was all about fetish. For me, it was only ever about the person. At one point in time, I had a boyfriend who was black. I remember talking to a co-worker, who was also black. I mentioned my boyfriend, because my coworker had insinuated that I couldn’t possibly know any black people personally… being white. (It just so happens that my stepdad is also black- but that’s not something I mentioned.) The idiot coworker then had the gall to ask what my boyfriend and I could possibly have in common- seeing as how we don’t look alike. I could list any number of things- from sense of humor, to taste in music, to the fact that we shared all the same hobbies and a common group of friends… Plus, he was in love with me. For me. As an individual- not as a fetish. I found it very insulting that this person would stand back and judge my relationship (into which he had no insight) so superficially. I understand how and why he probably acquired his perspective- but it is a mistake to view the world through that lens. I feel sorry for him that he lives in such a limited world.

Posted 18 Jul 2009 at 3:02 pm ¶
JG wrote:

I’m a Black Woman married to a White/Latino man (looks Mediterranean) and certain types of Black Men, Latina Women and White Women have the most “insecurity issues” when seeing us together. Especially White girls and women. I’m an afro wearing obvious good looking BW, with a very handsome WM and it INFURIATES the BECKY types and their “little sisters”. They are either overtly hostile, or do the “I’m just a sweet ‘white’ chick” routine. Not only is it dull, and transparent, it’s typical. I usually smile when I see it, and give the look, the one that says “sweetie get over it.” Men like women, period, and considering how good looking many BW are, and how many WM are finally coming into their own instead of being led around by the D&$*#$. There are some people out there that are just going to have to get used to it or die. Their choice.

Posted 31 Jul 2009 at 6:07 pm ¶
SugarPlumFairy wrote:

I really enjoyed reading this, Nadra. I am very happy that you brought this up for all of us to see. I remember seeing an episode of Ricki Lake which showcased interracial dating. Mind you, the “interracial dating” was misleading and untruthful because all of the guests were white women/black men couples. The audience was split into halves: one pro interracial dating, the other against it. About 90% of that episode was audience members giving their opinions and arguments as to why interracial dating is right or wrong. (Wait, it gets even worse.) The audience was black women on one side, and just about everyone else on the other side. The side consisting of black women was automatically penned to be against interracial dating before the guests were brought out on stage. They were automatically and unfairly seen as being haughty and backwards.

It’s like it this is what is expected of us, so many (too many) do not really care if it’s true or not. The Western beauty statement that you made brought me to a conclusion about this: maybe because of the standards of just about everything being unfair for black women, everyone else sees how hard it can be for black women and automatically assigns us as being unaccepting… as if it is normal for anyone at the bottom of the totem pole to behave as haughty, cold, jealous, and condescending. Black women did not assign ourselves these attributes, and we sure do not have them! Most black women do not care who any man dates. Whether the man is black, white, green, etc. Maybe this is another farce that was made to make us appear a certain way…

I’m a black junior in college, and have never had a boyfriend (I am more attracted to white men than any other race, but that’s a different story.) ; however, whenever I go places with a white guy friend, I get those looks. He’s not even my boyfriend! It seems, that some people even seeing a black woman and white man in close proximity will get the “HER?!” engine running, lol. We are all equals of course, and just about everyone believes this. It is hilarious to actually see women (usually the ones shouting about equality for everyone) become afraid of this fact. It must kill some women to be at the same level as a black woman, and not volunteering for her.

… Wow, this is long. I sort of get carried away.

Posted 02 Aug 2009 at 5:50 am ¶
Mz.Q. wrote:

Xey wrote:

Interesting piece. On a slightly different note, my good friend and I were JUST talking last night about whether or not black men get upset about seeing black women with non-black (particularly white) men. I’d like to see something on that as well.

I’m a black woman who has dated outside of her race, and yes, I’ve experienced black men displaying anger when they see that I am involved with a man who isn’t Black. The most interesting thing, though, is that the anger wasn’t directed at me. It was directed at the man I was with.

I recall one particular to time enjoying the company of a man who wasn’t black. We were totally caught up in the excitement of strolling down the strip in Las Vegas at night, holding hands and whatnot. A group of Black men were coming from the opposite way toward us. They passed us on my date’s side. One of them rammed into my date’s shoulder so hard that he fell against me. Other black men passed us, and they looked at me in shock, gave my date the most darkest, hate-filled glares, then looked back at me. The glares continued throughout the night.

Both the guy and I were raised to judge people for who they are, not for the pigmentation of their skin, so we didn’t fully understand what had gone on until we got back to our hotel room and discussed it. When I figured it out, I felt so embarrassed and sad. Their behavior had definately placed a damper on our night, and I remember apologizing profusely for the men’s behavior, as if I were responsible for the whole ordeal. I couldn’t, and still can’t, believe that people make such a big deal out of seeing someone of their own race romantically involved with someone of a different race….I just don’t understand it, and can’t even wrap my mind around it.

You’d think that people would be happy to know that two people found another, and had found happiness with one another. It has made me sad to know that I now fear walking down the street with a man of another race, and possibly having him physically attacked by men of MY race. It’s embarrassing, scary, and disgraceful.

Posted 04 Aug 2009 at 11:51 pm ¶
Mz.Q. wrote:

mariann wrote:
“It’s really quite silly to me, but ppl really do get confused when they see a glamazonian black chick doing her thing with anybody and everybody.
It doesn’t bother me, because every action of mine is committed to fulfilling my happiness, regardless of others’ thoughts. ”

Mariann, I couldn’t have said it better than you did here, especially the second sentence.
I was trying to explain this to my mother just yesterday, and she couldn’t understand that I hang out with people and do what I do where I do it because it’s what makes me most happiest. Someone’s skin color, or mine, does not define my choices and what I choose to make myself happy.
Thanks for that.

Posted 05 Aug 2009 at 1:21 pm ¶
greenNwhite wrote:

“browne” had a comment earlier that summed up my experiences. There is an issue not written about much, wherein some white women, no matter how unattractive, believe they will always be better than black women. There are also many white women who appreciate female beauty of all races, and they are truly the best friends I have ever had. Unfortunately I’m a slim, pretty black woman and I’ve come across a lot of the former, who disguise their racism (and envy) by pretending we just have “nothing in common” and try exclude me from events with white men (lol!).

Don’t get me started on the “incognegro” black guys who seem to think they will be “tainted” with blackness if they are seen socializing with black women and want to remain as the magical negro in their white circle.

Posted 14 Aug 2009 at 11:39 pm ¶
ManyColors wrote:

We need more blogs like this one.

Posted 16 Aug 2009 at 3:47 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

Good topic. Yes black women are not the only ones against black male/white woman relationships. Many whites are still against it (just ask the white women in these relationships what their parents think!) And it has been my experience that many Asian and Latino parents don’t want their daughters to date/marry black men either.

My point is– sometimes Black women get demonized for their opinions about this issue, which comes from a place of hurt and pain, while the outright racism of others– based from feelings of superiority or from buying into stereotypes, goes ignored.

Posted 23 Aug 2009 at 10:54 am ¶
Brenda wrote:

I’m sorry if my previous post may have offended anyone. My response was based on the article. As a black woman married to a white man, I don’t believe that a woman of a different race, if true, should become resentful or envious if a guy who isn’t of her race is with someone else. Life is short and this world is too big for that!

Most of the looks of surprise I’ve gotten are from black men and women asking how I met my husband and I tell them, although it feels awkward and annoying at times. One time a few years ago, an older black woman, upon finding out that my husband was white, began to share with me all her negative thoughts and woes about BM and how WM are better. She must have misinterpreted my revelation as I married my husband because I love him for whom he is. After all, he’s the first white guy I ever dated and the first person I’ve ever had a long-term and meaningful relationship with.

I haven’t noticed too much staring as our neighborhood is very diverse. However, I have observed that out of all of the IR relationship combinations in our area, our combination (WM/BF) is very rare. My husband doesn’t concern himself with such matters as he isn’t a born American (he met me the first came to the US).

When it comes to women/men and attractiveness, every race has good, bad and inbetween. So what’s the point of being insecure?

Posted 24 Aug 2009 at 12:46 pm ¶
kp6k wrote:

I am a WM dating an amazing woman, working towards a serious, hopefully marriage, relationship. The fact that she is AA, and very dark skinned, has given rise to some strong reactions from a few white women that I “thought” were my friends. The worst was from “Julie”, who I pretty much knew was rather prejudicial in her thinking to begin with. She was a client who became a friend over the past five or six years, and when I introduced her to my GF at a party, she actually turned three shades of red and said “Wow – I never thought you’d do that”. “Do what???” “Well, ya know, actually get involved with… ummmm… someone like HER.” “Like her? You mean, like a gorgeous, educated, successful, brilliant, dynamic, fascinating, sexy woman – like her???” “Ummmm, well, yeah, but, I mean, she’s so…” “So WHAT? So obviously out of my league? So much more amazing than anyone I’ve ever dated? So… what???” Well, of course this all happened right in front of my GF, who took it in stride, never once getting upset, never once taking the step down to Julie’s level and engaging her. Julie became quite obviously embarrassed by her own increasingly ignorant comments and she rather abruptly broke away. My GF just said “well, she’ll learn that the more she talks like that the worse she comes across” and that was it. We left shortly thereafter and I haven’t spoken with Julie since, over six weeks now. Oh well. The way I see it is that people who choose to be judgmental or ignorant about these sorts of things don’t get the opportunity to be in my life. Julie represents a certain stereotype, the WW raised and educated by the previous generation of racially segregated, narrow minded John Burch types. Fortunately in many places those people have passed on, and their ignorant ways have begun to fade away like they need to.

Posted 27 Aug 2009 at 6:51 am ¶
JaneSays wrote:

As a Black woman who has been in a relationship with a White male for 16 years (married for 9 of those), I can honestly say that I have encountered very few instances where I feel we are being singled out or stared at but I have noticed women’s reactions (women of all races) when they first notice us and I always wonder what they are thinking. Black women typically do a double take; white women tend to look then divert eye contact as if they are afraid; Asian women typically ask if we have “beautiful children” and Latinas, I hate to say, have been the most “disrespectful” of them all. I even once heard a lady mutter under her breath (loudly enough for me to hear, mind you) “I wonder why he chose her?”, to which I uncharacteristically replied, “Because look at you and then look at me, you beast!” I was mostly taken aback and angered by her comment not because it was obviously none of her business, but mostly because we had recently moved from Alabama to California and racism that overt was absolutely shocking to me. I was naive enough to think we had somehow left “the ignorance” behind when we moved but of course, I was wrong. Still, most comments I have heard have been on the shallow side: “Oh my, you’re so tall and pretty. Have you ever modeled?” (Tall and thin; another anomaly reserved only for White women…~sigh~)! But once people talk to us and see us interacting, their pre-conceived notions tend to fade and we find ourselves with a new slew of “friends” quite often. After all, we are a fun, accepting and fun-loving couple. Why wouldn’t they want to get to know us and more importantly, what’s our skin coulours to do with our personalities and characters??

Posted 06 Sep 2009 at 7:38 pm ¶
Alexa Claire wrote:

I’m a (white) woman whose only reaction when I see an interracial couple is “yay!” I absolutely love interracial couples and multiracial children, especially here in Mississippi, and I love seeing other people accepting of them. I don’t understand the concept of dating within one’s race.

I know it is one of the privileges of being white to not really notice race, except as a physical (and to some extent, cultural) characteristic. I have been in a relationship with an amazing guy for almost three years now. I happen to be white and he happens to be black. It has never been a focus or even much of a conversation topic throughout our entire friendship and relationship. He isn’t dating me because he thinks I’m more beautiful or desirable than a woman of any other race; it’s because he finds me beautiful as a person and is in love with me. Why does it ever have to be anything more than that?

That being said, I’ve seen and encountered many white, black, Asian, and Latina women that are more beautiful or intelligent or desirable than I consider myself. Though I might feel envy occasionally, I’ve never felt threatened.

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 12:55 am ¶
Alexa Claire wrote:

“When it comes to women/men and attractiveness, every race has good, bad and inbetween. So what’s the point of being insecure?”

Thank you, Brenda! I don’t think any races tend to be more beautiful than any other.

Posted 12 Sep 2009 at 1:00 am ¶
Sasha wrote:

“…their hostility comes from a very different place—a place of superiority.
It’s as if they are asking themselves, “Why on earth would he be with a black girl when I’m here?” Adding insult to injury is that it doesn’t seem to matter whether I’m more or less physically attractive than these women. That I’m black alone makes me inferior in their eyes…”

—– you hit the nail on the head right here!!! I have seen this in my own situation and even my black girlfriends who have white boyfriends. we jokingly call my friend and her her boyfriend “halle berry and gabriel aubry” b/c that’s what they look like so you wouldn’t expect some average white girl to try to assert herself to my my friend’s boyfriend upon being shocked when she realized they were together.
even though she was obviously less attractive, after giving a shocked look, she tried to flirt w/ him. he just ignored her.

I once was walking down the street w/ my jewish date when a random girl passes him, punches him in the stomach and kept walking. i hadn’t even seen her punch him but he yelped and said with such a surprised expression of how the girl punched him and he didn’t know why. i did. lol.

Posted 27 Oct 2009 at 12:53 am ¶
Akera wrote:

I am a black woman who has dated men from different cultural backgrounds and I sometimes would receive stares from others but when I started dating my boyfriend (who is asian), I caught more hell than I thought. At first, some people would ask “why can’t you date a black man?” “what’s so attractive about an asian man?” They have even made racists comments about asian men being “nerdy”, “short”, “small gentials”. I can say that is not true about my boyfriend. Yes, he is smart and alittle geeky but I am too. (I am a trekkie! lol). And we have a healthy intimate relationship like any other couple.

After hearing many questions and comments about why I am with him my response was always simple and usually shut them up: “My boyfriend’s race, skin color, and cultural background has nothing to do with why I love him. I love him because he is a loving, smart, and caring man I have much in common with and that I fell in love with because we are different. It’s nice to have alittle variety in my life. Isn’t that the good part about living in a country that has many different cultures and races?”

When I tell people this, they usually have to re-think about what they said before. We live in a country where we have a free choice to love whomever we choose to. People have fought laws only decades earlier for this right…The right for two people to love, date or marry whomever they choose regardless of race, color or cultural standing.

Posted 28 Oct 2009 at 2:31 am ¶

Interracial Dating: Black Women Aren’t the Only Foes of Interracial Romance

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