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1. Black Latinos, Stand up « 100% Juicy Juice on 09 Jun 2009 at 10:09 am

   [...] Stand up June 9, 2009 Filed under: Uncategorized — rociorayo @ 2:08 pm Original Post Here Ever have a conversation that seems normal enough and then takes a weird turn? This happened to me [...]

Comments

1. Ruchama wrote:

   Interesting. It seems like there isn’t really a good generally-accepted definition of “Hispanic.” On another message board where I post, a few months ago, a British woman asked what the difference was between “Hispanic” and “Latino,” and at least ten Americans answered, and I don’t think any two gave exactly the same answer — one person actually knew the way the terms are used academically, but the rest of us were trying to put into words the way that we hear them being used, and no one could agree on what we think we mean when we say either word.

   some black Latinos may not openly identify as black despite the evidence in their hair texture and skin color.

   Hair texture doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Look at Rhea Perlman, Juliana Margulies, Art Garfunkel, etc.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 8:28 am ¶

2. Sarah wrote:

   On the census forms, or other types of “official” forms where they list race / ethnicity checks, do they put:
   “African American (non-Hispanic)”
   the way that they put
   “Caucasian (non-Hispanic)”?

   I don’t recall seeing this, but it may have been an over site on my part.

   Second question: In the census, as they now allow people to check more than one box if you are biracial – do they expect people to check Hispanic as well as a “race” to go with it?

   /just curious

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 8:40 am ¶

3. Solange wrote:

   Great article on a topic that is seldom discussed due to the negative attitudes many latinos have towards being black. I can recall being in college when Sean Paul became a pop star and my roommate saying “He’s not really Jamaican, he’s too light”, oddly enough she was from Peru.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:14 am ¶

4. Blu2 True wrote:

   I agree WHOLEHEARTLY! Also, on the flip side. . . . I can not tell you how many people “don’t believe” me when I don’t know spanish. . . . claiming I “can’t” be black with a light complexion and curly hair. . . I “Must” be Dominican or something. . . .

   :-/

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:18 am ¶

5. malted_tea wrote:

   Your article brought up a point that I’ve not thought of before: Black Latinos may not be considered as “pure Latino” and are therefore marginalized within their linguistic and social communities.

   Pity, because on top of that is my layered and one-sided view that Black Latinos didn’t prioritize their self-identity as such. Same goes for extremely pale skinned (dare I say, “passable”) Latinos.

   As a 30-something person of Caribbean heritage who only figured out LAST YEAR that the Dominican Republic was full of dark-skinned folk (sad but true), I would love to hear from Latinos and Latinas in this thread.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:20 am ¶

6. aimerrouge wrote:

   In the United States, I think this happens to every Black person whose ancestry is from a non-English speaking country.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:24 am ¶

7. Fiqah wrote:

   This is complicated. Embracing being both Latino and Black, from this outsider’s perspective, seems to be largely reliant on self-identification. And the painful truth here is that there is a lot of stigma attached to being perceived as Black within a lot of Latino communities. That whole “Say It Loud” thing? Yeah, that didn’t happen everywhere. It is often considered rude – rude! – to call someone “Black” unless that is how the self-identify (and just never mind that they may look blacker than you, your mama, and all the Black people you know). The handful of people I know who identify as Black and Latino are DAILY pressured – by family and folks in their communities – to not call or view themselves as Black. Different nations, different histories, different perspectives. So, yeah. Complicated.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:27 am ¶

8. Secret Sociologist wrote:

   I’m not a black Latina, but I’m an African American person who speaks fluent Spanish. I live in a part of the U.S. that only recognizes Mexicans and routinely ignores the fact that there are Latinos from other parts of the world.

   If it weren’t for the fact that I’m a teacher (and teach bilingual classes), it would cause more problems than it solves. At work (where there are many Mexicans), I generally get that “side-eye” from everyone except my very young students, who are too young to be suspicious. Some even seem angry or upset. I’ve had at least one instance of a co-worker talking about me (in Spanish) only to be shocked later to see me translating or talking to someone else in Spanish. I can’t deny that I enjoyed seeing the look on her face!

   There are a few people who will speak Spanish with me and not make a big deal of it; these enlightened few are the only ones who ask me “Where are you from?” instead of the more common, “Why are you speaking Spanish?!”

   Still puzzling is that some actually refuse to believe that I speak Spanish (and usually they tell me so–in Spanish, and I respond to them–in Spanish). I cannot figure this out.

   My best experience to date was traveling in Puerto Rico. It’s the only time I’ve ever felt as though I fit in; no one questioned me and I felt like “myself.”

   I realize my experiences don’t match the original post exactly, since I am the only person in my family to speak the language and haven’t grown up in a family/community where there are other Black Latinos. But I do feel as though I’m on two sides of a cultural divide, so I identified with the article a bit.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:40 am ¶

9. Secret Sociologist wrote:

   Whoops! Obviously, I meant to say I live in a part of the country where Mexicans are the only “recognized” Latinos–meaning, when most people think Latino, they think of Mexicans… sorry! I just didn’t like the way I initially wrote that and wanted to offer clarification.

   Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:42 am ¶

10. GueraLola wrote:

    Finally! My mother is from Latin American and she (including my dad and me) is surprised how Americand really treat Black Latinos. I hope this doesn’t sound to white privilege of me but It annoys when when some Mexican- Americans (and people of other races) are surprised to see black Hispanics! Really? People, Latinos come in every color! I ‘know Salvadorians with red hair, meet Mexicans with African Heritage and Latinos with Asian heritage.
    Get over it!

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:48 am ¶

11. chris chambers wrote:

    My retired USMC Republican neighbor has a Cuban wife. She’s definitely “white” or Castillan Cuban and doesn’t hestitate to tell you. She says Mexicans aren’t real Americans, and holds Puerto Ricans (who she says are truly mulatto) and Domincans in higher regard than Chicanos. She likens mexicans to Central Americans–calling them “Indians.” Now, she’s ambivalent about Sotomayor despite her conservative GOP bent. Puerto Ricans, black Domincans likely are more the “devil she knows” versus the devil she don’t?

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:01 am ¶

12. N wrote:

    Yup

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:05 am ¶

13. Medusa wrote:

    I think the confusion may come from the part that Americans are raised to think that every Spanish-speaker on the earth is a descendant of Central/South Americans. As in, no immigrants, just the only people who speak Spanish are from that region. I’ve had 2308432089423089 conversations with Americans that make absolutely no sense, like them labeling Central/South Americans as “Spanish,” despite the fact that Spanish people clearly come from SPAIN and, having everyone from that region being referred to as “Mexican”. (Um, hello? if someone is from the Uruguay then he is not Mexican…) And the fact that people from that region are just referred to as “Hispanic” even though the meaning of that term has changed several times and isn’t even a race…but Americans use the term as though it is.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:10 am ¶

14. Celeste wrote:

    I think the U.S. has a hard time with the whole race vs. ethnicity thing especially when it comes to blacks. A black person born in Germany who speaks perfect German is just as black racially as a black person born in the US who speaks perfect English.
    “black heritage isn’t exactly coveted in the region” or this region for that matter, I think that has a great deal to do with it. I wish that more black Latinos would openly identify as such. It’s such a big slap in the face when someone who looks like me asserts that he or she is *not* black, he or she is latino only.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:10 am ¶

15. Celeste wrote:

    @ Blu2 True and Malted Tea: I think the genetic recipe for American blacks and Dominican blacks are pretty much the same. When I visited the DR a few years back no one could tell I was American until I attempted my version of half-forgotten Spanish (took it to 400 level in college but you’d never be able to tell).

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:16 am ¶

16. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    People need to understand that Hispanic/Latino is NOT a race, but an ethnicity that happens to speak Spanish and hail from Latin America. For the most part, anyway.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:29 am ¶

17. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    to clarify, from what I can remember reading in books, Latino is someone from Latin America, while “Hispanic” means someone who speaks Spanish, so that includes Spainiards.

    Is that correct? anyone, please correct me if I’m wrong.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:31 am ¶

18. Wendi Muse wrote:

    “hispanic” doesn’t include spaniards, who are european.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:52 am ¶

19. Vgirl wrote:

    I’m multi-racial, so I may not be the kind of Black Latina you’re talking about in this article. My mom is Mexican and my dad is African American. We’re from the West Coast and I’m certainly not the only person with this background. I’m almost always read as black, especially in the American South (on the East Coast I’m read as Caribbean.) I get to experience all of the social violence that goes along with being a black woman…and no amount of self identification is ever going to change that. In fact, the general confusion I get whenever I note that I’m, in fact, Mexican and Black…all at the same time, only compounds the racism. I imagine (though I don’t claim to know because it I’m multiracial and not Afro Caribbean, for example,) that other Latinos who are phenotypically “black” experience something similar in the American context.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 10:58 am ¶

20. [dave] wrote:

    Yeah we talk about the race vs. ethnicity angle of folks who identify as Latin@ or Hispanic all time … the wiki answer seems ok:

    In the United States, the term is in official use in the ethnonym Hispanic or Latino, defined as “a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.

    Then … Neither “Hispanic” nor “Latino” refers to a race, as a person of Latino or Hispanic ethnicity can be of any race.[9][6] Like non-Latinos, a Latino can be of any single race: White/Caucasian, Black/African American, Asian, Native American, or Pacific Islander. Again like non-Latinos, some may identify with more than one race, such as Mestizo (a bi-racial person of White/Caucasian and Native American descent), Mulatto (a person of White/Caucasian and Black/African American descent), Zambo (a person of Native American and Black/African American descent) or any other race or combination.

    Although I know plenty of folks who may be of those mixed race categories but still prefer to identify strictly as latin@.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:02 am ¶

21. cocolamala wrote:

    tracy jordan (of SNL and 30 Rock fame) used to play a hispanic character named Dominican Lou.

    also, “the brief tragic life of Oscar Wao” discusses afro-hispanic identity a bit.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:02 am ¶

22. Just A Thought wrote:

    @ Blu2 True:

    I have had that same experience, most notably when I moved south. Even among Americans, black and white, there is this idea that you aren’t “really black” if you can pass the paper bag test and your hair doesn’t have tightly coiled curls.

    I can’t really comment on why Black Latinos do not identify as black. In my experience, in interacting with Latina people, I’ve noticed strong racism and colorism between the lighter and darker members of the various groups. One particularly odious example involved a Cuban associate who exemplifies the worst of the colorist/racism/classist behavior of the white Cuban stereotype. He has a particularly annoying habit of saying that I could pass for Dominican, and that there are no black Cubans. After hearing this for the millionth time, I replied that he could pass for one of my cousins, and pulled out a family photo to prove it. I said that if he came to a family reunion and didn’t speak Spanish, no one would know the difference. He wouldn’t talk to me for a week.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:11 am ¶

23. regina wrote:

    My cousin is from the DR and she told me she has good hair because she isn’t fully black. This really doesnt make much sense seeing how if you look at her family history everyone is black. This really irks me.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:11 am ¶

24. queerhapa wrote:

    Given different patterns of migration, perceptions of latinidad vary regionally in the U.S. There’s probably less of a confusion about black Latin@s in the Northeast and Upper Midwest because of large multigenerational populations of Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. In NYC and Chicago in the ’70s, there was a radical Puerto Rican nationalist org (similar politically and organizationally to the Black Panthers) called the Young Lords that recognized both their black and latin@ roots.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:13 am ¶

25. queerhapa wrote:

    @Sarah: “Second question: In the census, as they now allow people to check more than one box if you are biracial – do they expect people to check Hispanic as well as a “race” to go with it?”

    According to the census, Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. Therefore everyone who fills out the census must answer two separate questions, one asking whether or not you are Hispanic, and the other asking you to check your race (and Hispanic is not an option for the race question). I know several latin@s who checked off “other” for the race question, rather than checking off “white” + “black” + “Native American,” for example.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:18 am ¶

26. jerkygirl wrote:

    @Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist!
    I don’t know if you are “wrong,” or if there is exactly one “right” answer, but I remember reading somewhere that Latino meant “of Latin America” as in Mexico, Central America, and South America, while “Hispanic” meant “of the Caribbean,” from the name of the island of Hispaniola though it includes all of the Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries, while people from Spain are called “Spanish” or “Spaniards.” I’m not sure exactly where I read that but that’s what I think of when I hear the terms. I don’t know that that’s everyone’s definition, since I’ve heard people call Jennifer Lopez, for instance, both Hispanic and Latina, and that’s only one example.
    I also knew some friends in high school who were from Puerto Rico, and looked black, but always said they were not black, they were Puerto Rican. It wasn’t an anti-black thing with them, because they were definitely not racists, but I think it was more that they thought of being “black” as meaning “American black person” and they were from Puerto Rico, so. . . with them, I think they identified more in regard to ethnicity and nationality rather than race.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:35 am ¶

27. Joy wrote:

    One problem is that in America black is synonymous with African American. I don’t know any black Latinos, but I do know some Haitians and Jamicans who sometimes don’t like to be called black, because people assumes it means they’re African American. Maybe this is a reason black Latinos might not like to identify as black?
    Seems like people have forgotten you can be a color and a nationality.

    (On another note, I wish all those little race/ethnicity whatever they are check boxes would just say black instead of African American. They never say Caucasian American. What’s up with that?)

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:37 am ¶

28. SayNay wrote:

    I think awareness of this issue, at least in the U.S., has a lot to do with settlement and numbers. On the west coast you will rarely see someone who identifies as a black latino who is not mixed race (e.g. Mexican & African-American) vs. the East Coast and South where there are more visible Dominican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Panamanian communities, etc.

    I wonder how the political/public image of the “Hispanic” community will be shaped by a rise in numbers of Black Latinos, but also Asian Latinos who are small in numbers but are becoming more significant. Growing up I knew two kids, one Japanese and one Chinese, whose families were from South America. Their parents mostly spoke to them in spanish and they tended to identify with more of their latino culture.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:57 am ¶

29. Kandeezie wrote:

    Isn’t this the one drop rule rearing its ugly head again. Any drop of African means you’re black (American) – which can’t possibly be anything else, racially, ethnically, or culturally.

    The posts here in the past few days speak to that.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 12:00 pm ¶

30. sarah wrote:

    @ Wendi Muse — The Census classifies people of Spanish descent (from Spain) as “Hispanic or Latino.” From the Census: “Persons who indicated that they are ‘other Spanish/Hispanic/Latino’ include those whose origins are from Spain.” I know the Census definitions aren’t infallible, but when media and research groups do studies on race/ethnicity, they often defer to Census data.

    See here:
    http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68188.htm

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 12:13 pm ¶

31. Cheryl Lynn wrote:

    As a Black American who first lived in a predominately Latino area and then moved to a predominately Asian area, I’ve had to completely relearn what it means to be Latino. As a child, Latino was a race. And where you came from was your ethnicity. So my old neighbor’s ethnicity would be Dominican and her race would be Latino. No matter if she “looked black” or not.

    That idea was reinforced when I moved to a predominately Asian area. Because there are a whole lot of Asian people around here who could easily pass for Black. Dark skin, broad features—the whole deal. And even though there have got to be a few Black people somewhere in those family trees, these people are considered as Asian as their light-skinned, straight haired counterparts. And the light-skinned, straight-haired people in my own family are just as Black as I am. So it’s a learning experience to see dark-skinned, kinky haired Latinos embrace being both Latino and Black after encountering dark-skinned, kinky haired Asians who reject the idea of being connected to any blackness in any form. And there are many straight-haired, light-skinned people in my own family who will get absolutely furious if you say that they are anything but 100% Black. In both neighborhoods there was very much a “pick a side and stick with it” mentality that is only now changing. Will we see a rise in Black Asians and Black Native Americans as more people who “look black” decide to honor all of the people in their family tree?

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 12:15 pm ¶

32. Shelly wrote:

    Great article! I have arguments with my white boyfriend regarding Felix “Tito” Trinidad who is clearly a black Puerto Rican boxer. The boyfriend insists that Trinidad is not black, he’s Puerto Rican. I say he’s black AND Puerto Rican. He can’t seem to understand that there are lots of black Latinos. We have the same argument about Manny Ramirez.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 12:15 pm ¶

33. GueraLola wrote:

    @ Medusa I know people were they used the word Spanish as a synonym for Hispanic/ Latino. At times I’m confused to they mean Spanish or Latino at times.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 12:55 pm ¶

34. Ain't I an African wrote:

    As Richie Spice before me said “I’m proud to be black; I’m black to be proud.” When will all people with a even a drop of African blood accept that drop?

    Aint I an African- Black like a Tar

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 12:59 pm ¶

35. Alston wrote:

    In Quebec, if you are black, then people assume that you are a francophone, so the black/francophone mix comes as no surprise to anyone. In fact, if you are black and NOT francophone, then people get confused.

    OTOH, if you are black, then as far as white people are concerned, you are francophone and specifically Haitian, even though you might be Senegalese, Canadian (not from Quebec), French (as in France) or what have you. I have seen many people absolutely insist on it, actually.

    If you move northeast of downtown Montreal, someone like me is a little confusing for the white francophone majority. I am black, but anglophone, and not born in Quebec. When I speak French, I sound a lot like the white francophones rather than the black ones. (The difference in accent is similar to the difference in accent between a black New Yorker that you would typically see on TV and a white one.)

    All this to say that black people cause similar confusion in Quebec. I can only imagine what kind of confusion different kinds of Métis and First Nations people cause out west.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:00 pm ¶

36. Kat wrote:

    #32-shelly said: Great article! I have arguments with my white boyfriend regarding Felix “Tito” Trinidad who is clearly a black Puerto Rican boxer. The boyfriend insists that Trinidad is not black, he’s Puerto Rican.
    *******************

    To play devil’s advocate, Tell your friend…Cameron Diaz is not white, she’s Cuban. Let’s see how far that goes without head spinning…

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:07 pm ¶

37. Amanda wrote:

    fantastic article!! As a black woman fluent in Spanish it is interesting to speak Spanish with Latinos who seem to not question the fact that I speak Spanish but instead question that I have no Latino ancestry. The questioning is as follows .. “Oh you speak Spanish?”, “Where are you from?” When I respond the US they ask “Where are your parents from?”, “Your grandparents?” … and then the conversation ends in confusion. I feel that most Latinos know that there are blacks from their home countries .. from Ecuador to Colombia to Nicaragua … there is a sizeable population of black people, yet many black and white americans seems to lack this knowledge.

    In addition this issue alone clearly reveals the issues of the census and identification in this country, where the origins were on color alone … black, white … versus country of origin .. Irish, Kenyan … Yet as the population has begun to change to reflect people of various colors AND ethnicities, the US has had a hard time keeping up.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:07 pm ¶

38. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    Let’s face it, guys, American racial issues are so fucked up. I have NEVER understood why people were called “white” or “black” while everyone else were called by their nationality or ethnicity.

    If there is “white” and “black…” then where is the category for BROWN people? Oh, but that’s too confusing, right? Who are brown? Indians, Mexicans, Persians, Arabs?

    You never hear people call us Indians “brown,” so why the hell should there be categories for “black” and “white”?

    And I remember one Latina told me that they would express “brown pride” as being being proud to be Latino. And I replied, “funny because we South Asians also express ‘brown pride’ as in being brown and Desi.”

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:13 pm ¶

39. Xey wrote:

    Pretty much for as long as I’ve been interested in the Spanish language, I’ve known about Black Latinos. But in spite of it, I am still surprised when I see one. Probably because it’s so uncommon to see Hispanic/Latino people who are not “white” Mexicans here in Memphis. But where I work, I am one of four people who speak Spanish, and 3 of us are “black” (including myself, an African-American; a woman from Ghana, W Africa; and a man from Panama). That is correct that according to official US standards, “Hispanic” is an ethnicity. I collect demographic info at my job, and when I ask people of Latin American descent their “race,” they pretty much always say “Hispana” or “Latina.” When I explain that those apply to ethnicity and that race is something more like “Asian/Pacific Islander, African-American/Black, Caucasian/White, etc.,” they will still say, “Hmmm… Hispana?” Once, someone said “Pues, soy trigueña.”

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:17 pm ¶

40. Wendi Muse wrote:

    yeah but people from spain would be hardpressed to identify as hispanic. they use that term in spanish to refer to people from the caribbean who speak spanish. they identify as european, spanish, white, etc…but rarely have i heard hispanic…

    the census also identified(ies?) people of middle eastern descent simply as “White,” and i don’t know too many M.E. people in the white (in the united states)

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:28 pm ¶

41. regina wrote:

    Not to be a jerk or annoying the word Latino refers to men and women. Shouldn’t it be something else? Something less male normative-y.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:30 pm ¶

42. Kat wrote:

    Sometimes, confusion occurs when people of African descent say they are not black, they really mean NOT black (American).

    As someone coming from a West Indian (black) background… Some people want to maintain their cultural distinctiveness and not be lumped with African-Americans who are a different ethnic group. Sometimes, it has nothing to do with denying one’s blackness.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:30 pm ¶

43. Wendi Muse wrote:

    side note, i think the easiest solution to this bit of confusion is simply to expand our way of thinking to include race and ethnicity as venn diagrams. like i am american and also black and also southern. so if we were to stick that into an international context, it would be a bit like saying i am latin american, of african descent, from x country.

    it still floors me that people don’t seem to understand the multiple levels of identity. i think it’s equally disturbing, however, when one group tries to assert one aspect of identity over others, ignoring or belittling their respective country’s/region way of self-identifying. every country’s got their racism beef/issues, and if we look hard enough, we’ll see the big problem in trying to make latinos identify within a cookie cutter, american (us in this case) way of thinking about race. it’s important to recognize the diversity there.

    and despite racism within latin america, you have to bear in mind their colonial histories gave way to different understandings of national identity. for cubans, dominicans, brazilians, etc, national identity often comes first because that was an important element of national rhetoric leading up to the gaining of independence from european countries like spain and portugal. in the states, on the other hand, black americans were never included in the national freedom from the english rhetoric bc we were slaves at the time (in a lot of latin american countries, the slaves were freed (some forever, some temporarily) to fight against the spanish) which ran counter to the message. sure, in latin america, this “Freedom” bit was propaganda for the sake of enlisting help (to the highest degree), but it also worked wel to forge a national identity. we were more fragmented.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:35 pm ¶

44. Lisa J wrote:

    The NYT has a discussion on defining Hispanic and Latino/a for those of you who are interested http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/hispanic-latino-or-what/

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:40 pm ¶

45. Coco wrote:

    This reminds me of the “one drop rule” and how it’s used in both Latin countries and the U.S. Here in the U.S. one drop of Black blood makes you Black. Where as in Latin America one drop of White blood can make you White. As a light skinned Latina of mixed race, I find it extremely hard to have other people understand that I self identify myself as Black or not White from both African Americans who refuse to see how I am Black and other Latinos who refuse to see how I am not White.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:42 pm ¶

46. Fiqah wrote:

    @Amanda:

    The questioning is as follows .. “Oh you speak Spanish?”, “Where are you from?” When I respond the US they ask “Where are your parents from?”, “Your grandparents?” … and then the conversation ends in confusion.

    I’m chuckling at this because I get the EXACT same line of questioning, only it always begins with a failed attempt at a conversation in Spanish, followed by an (impolitely extensive) inquiry of my families’ places of origin, and then some awful illustration of internalized racism disguised as a “compliment.” ::: head shaking eye roll:::

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 1:59 pm ¶

47. Patricia wrote:

    I enjoyed your article. I’m a white Puerto Rican and where I’ve been living for the last 10 years, Orlando, people don’t believe I’m Puerto Rican. Most people I talk to think that Latino’s are only black or brown.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 2:00 pm ¶

48. BlackIvy wrote:

    I must confess that I at times have been guilty of excluding black latinos from “blackness” as an African American woman, but not because I do not accept them as black. Rather, I am frustrated with how the media, specifically casting directors, conflate them with black americans and use them to represent our experiences as though descendants/latinos were interchangeable. Hollywood unfortunately uses Latino blacks as “better versions” of black people with “good hair.” (A term that turns my stomach.) I was recently upset by the casting of Zoe Saldanada as Lt. Uhura. I have been a star trek fan since I was a child and have long heard stories about the many black women older than I who were inspired her including the first black female in space and Whoopie Goldberg who later came to have a role on the Next Generation. Its not that I dont like Zoe or think she’s black, but I couldn’t help but feel that she was somehow not authentically black american in the same way that Nichelle Nichols was. Similarly, Zoe was used in Guess Who. Though I loved the movie, I couldn’t help but think that using her avoided what I would have loved to see — Ashton Kutcher getting it on with a nappy headed “authentic” black girl. In other context I would embrace our shared genealogical history, but culturally, I do not appreciate this sort of substitution. I think a good analogy is the uproar that happened when a Chinese (?) actress was cast as the lead in Memoirs of a Geisha. The question arises: are there no qualified ladies in the whole of Japan?

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 2:15 pm ¶

49. Brandon wrote:

    Here’s a short 10 minute film that plays with some of these subjects… issues of race, nationality, and class on the island of Hispaniola.

    http://vodpod.com/watch/1363344-hbo-latino-presents-hispaniola-cinedulce-latino-and-urban-film-and-video

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 2:21 pm ¶

50. Jamerican Muslimah wrote:

    Wendui Musse said “it still floors me that people don’t seem to understand the multiple levels of identity. i think it’s equally disturbing, however, when one group tries to assert one aspect of identity over others, ignoring or belittling their respective country’s/region way of self-identifying. ”

    Thank you!

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 2:41 pm ¶

51. Secret Sociologist wrote:

    Amanda & Fiqah said this better than I did. The “questioning” is exhausting!

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 2:55 pm ¶

52. aimerrouge wrote:

    “regina wrote:

    Not to be a jerk or annoying the word Latino refers to men and women. Shouldn’t it be something else? Something less male normative-y.”

    Romance languages use masculine and feminine words. English doesn’t have the same structure. As a french speaker with limited spanish capabilities, I don’t understand your question, are you saying you have an objection to Romance languages having masculine and feminine words? What is male normative?

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:19 pm ¶

53. c.n. edaw wrote:

    ” Will we see a rise in Black Asians and Black Native Americans as more people who “look black” decide to honor all of the people in their family tree?”

    Probably not. First of all there seems to be a concerted effort by all non black ethnic groups (besides whites ) to distance themselves from black African ties or African Americans.
    For example, the Cherokees expelling their before recognized black tribe members. I believe there have been similar moves within other Native American tribes with large rates of intermarriage with black slaves, like the Seminoles.

    I have to ask the following question as many of the respondents felt the need to distance or distinguish themselves ethnically from African Americans –and I am going on record as saying I am a person who was vehemently opposed to the term African American as I think it is terribly inaccurate and confusing as far as labels go- if we must have them– but WHAT really is the ethnic difference so many of you speak of that makes Carribbean blacks or Hispanics, for example so much ethnically different than most black Americans??? I get culture and nationality, but not ethnically.

    For example, I have great grandparents on both sides are mixed black and Native American of varying tribes who married white people in some cases who also had kids who married other mixed black and Indian people.
    I located birth certificates of my great great ancestors which had them listed as “mulatto” and born in Mexico.

    However, all these folks in the latter generations having been raised in the American South identify as nothing more than black, as I do.

    While I grew up being asked what I could be
    ” mixed with “due to the long thick wavy texture of my hair –my medium brown skin always kept me firmly within the ranks of black folk in the south. And despite these people being very well aware of their mixed ancestry and some of them more fair skinned , straight haired, and light eyed than many American born whites…they all identified as black, quite angrily in some cases LOL!

    It was not until I traveled to New York and Miami in my teens and found complete strangers speaking Spanish to me and looking quite puzzled when I did not respond or had no idea what they meant when asked if I was Dominican or Panamanian or possibly Puerto Rican…that I got interested in a lot of the things discussed here on Racialicious.

    But again, someone please explain, what is the ethnic/racial mixture so many of you feel distinguishes certain Hispanic groups from American blacks ethnically because in a lot of cases I’m not sure there’s enough difference to be classified differently racially/ehtnically ( if we MUST do so) only culturally or nationally.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:35 pm ¶

54. politicallyincorrect wrote:

    Why blame others for this situation, I live in NYC and a lot of black Latinos don’t even call themselves black. They acknowledge that they are Domnican or Puerto Rican but they never use the term black hispanic. If they don’t use why should anyone else do it?
    I do notice some Panamanians call themselves black but that b/c so many of their families came from Jamaica to Panama b/c they came from a black country

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:37 pm ¶

55. c.n. edaw wrote:

    My post reminded me of something an older relative once remarked that might deemed offensive, but perhaps explains my question better than I laid out.

    On a trip to New Orleans we met a young girl whom my grandfather thought was Mexican or Puerto Rican but she said she was “Creole” when he asked her what she was.

    His reply, “What’s the difference?”

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:41 pm ¶

56. bianca wrote:

    This is an interesting thread and after reading all that I wrote below, I think it may spend some more time writing about this, versus leaving such long responses here (apologies in advance)!

    I identify as LatiNegra/Afro-Caribbean/Afro-Latina etc. Many of my “friends” have challenged this identity. My racially Black and White friends have teamed up on me saying: “you could pass [for White]” so I can’t identify as a LatiNegra. Other Latinos have spoken to me regarding how “light” my skin color is so I could not identify as such either. I don’t know if these comments come from spaces of wanting to include me in a more racially ambiguous space, wanting to keep the racial classification of Black and Latino static, or their attempts to “school” me on my own identity. I’ve always thought (and felt) that they were telling me “You can’t claim an identity that is so othered” and “Don’t try to take someone else’s identity when they really are Black.” There was almost a level of protecting a “Black” identity for people who can pass for no other racial classification but “Black.” Funny how there is such policing.

    One thing that has not yet been mentioned, and is extremely important to my identity, is the history of colonization among places that experienced exploration, conquest and colonization in Central and South America and the Caribbean. My family is from Puerto Rico, several of them are politically conservative and swore our family had roots from “pure” Spanish noble blood. Then I come along, a throwback, and am a constant reminder of this lie, illusion. Needless to say, growing up was not always “fun” being called ugly, having my curls cut from my head (watching my curls fall from my head to the floor is one of my earliest memories), and being told to stay out of the sun at the beach unless I wanted to “look Black.” There’s a fear of Blackness in my (extended) family that I don’t think is exclusive to just us.

    There are so many issues with the language used to discuss race, ethnicity and especially Latinos. It is limiting. Several folks have asked about terminology. I’m not sure, even when the US Census defines “Hispanic/Latino,” that folks from Suriname, Guyana, and/or Belize identify with the term. In this way it is a faulty term. I prefer “Latino” to “Hispanic,” mostly because Latino can be feminine, such as Latina. Yet, I also don’t mind people saying “Latino” to include me, as I don’t see myself separate from the men, trans and genderqueer people in our community. However, I prefer to be identified as Caribbean.

    I was not raised in a Latino home. I was raised in a Puerto Rican home. I am a Latina. I am Puerto Rican. I am a woman of Color. I am LatiNegra, but the history of colonization, struggle for independence, cultural transmission, rituals, and ideologies I embrace and was raised with are more similar to people in the Caribbean than to people in Central and South America.

    Finally, just as there are a range of skin colors, hair textures, bodies, accents, and religious beliefs, there is diversity in language as well. Regionally language, especially Spanish is different. I dread it when folks want to “correct” my Spanish without me asking for assistance. My homegirl in Arizona, an 8th generation Chicana, is no less Latina because she doesn’t speak Spanish than I am who is multi-lingual. I will say that there are times when I do have a sigh of relief when folks speak to me in Spanish. It shows they KNOW, they know who I am, they see me, we are not as invisible as they think we are or want us to be. It was not what I looked like that made me stress; it was not knowing the right words in Spanish that stressed me out. Anxiety around language is something I’ve been coping with my entire life and have found a place of comfort with it and ask for clarification if I don’t understand. This has been a huge accomplishment for me.

    side bar: Did anybody else notice the marketing and media of Miracle at St. Anna, Spike Lee’s last feature film, did not address the Black Puerto Rican who was at the center of the story? I noticed this when I saw the film and realized there was NO Latino media whatsoever around the film.

    Thanks to you all for triggering such thoughts and ideas for me!

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:50 pm ¶

57. Ruchama wrote:

    Out of curiosity, I just looked up on ancestry.com some immigration records from the thirties of immigrants from Mexico with Spanish-sounding surnames. (I just picked Garcia and Lopez as my search terms, since they were the first two I thought of.) The forms from those years have separate spaces for “race” and “color,” and I wanted to see how those forms got filled in then. The first bunch I looked at all said “white” for color and “Mexican” for race. (I’ve mostly found with those forms that they use “race” for what we’d now mostly think of as ethnicity — most of my ancestors have race listed as Hebrew, and I’ve also seen things like South Italian, Magyar, and Moravian listed as races.)

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:50 pm ¶

58. Zahra wrote:

    A question: Are Portuguese-speakers and other non-Spanish-speaking Latin Americans included in the terms “Hispanic” and “Latin@”? I’ve heard that Hispanic means Spanish speakers, maybe including Spaniards, maybe not, but that Latino means everyone from Latin America. Any thoughts?

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 3:57 pm ¶

59. Nin wrote:

    Great article! It seems that Latinos can only be brown, if you are white or black, then you must be something else for most people.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 4:29 pm ¶

60. Jacqui wrote:

    Shout out also for Andre Royo (Bubbles in The Wire), whose mother if African American and father is Cuban.

    He once said that he’s had trouble finding work as he apparently (that is, according to casting people) doesn’t look ‘black enough’ for some parts, and not ‘Latino enough’ for others. And considering his a) talent and b) his attractiveness, that’s a very sad thing.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 4:36 pm ¶

61. Wendi Muse wrote:

    zahra,
    brazilians are sometimes offended by the term “hispanic” bc they feel it lumps them in with spanish speakers when they are not. portuguese speakers, also known as lusophone, usually just refer to themselves by their country. as brazil is the only predominately lusophone country in latin america (some uruguayans and brazilians speak portanhol, which is a mix of spanish and portuguese), they just say brazilian. i have heard some brazilians based in the states (esp those born in the states) refer to themselves as latin@, but it’s still not as commonly used as with other spanish speaking countries. i have heard my students, for example, refer to spanish speakers as latinos, but not always include themselves in that category.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 5:00 pm ¶

62. Wendi Muse wrote:

    as far as other portuguese speakers are concerned, i.e. from african lusophone countries (angola, mozambique, cabo verde) and portugal itself, they would not refer to themselves as hispanic or latino either.

    latino in its basest root just means based in romance (latin) language (italian, spanish, portuguese, french, and romanian),and a portuguese teacher once informed me that its earliest meaning, like long long ago, meant someone who was neither enslaved nor free. with that said, most of latin america, as a region primarily made up of iberian-run colonies, fit into that category perfectly.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 5:05 pm ¶

63. BSK wrote:

    I agree with the general premise of the article, but are you sure Manny Ramirez is black, or has African ancestry? I am well aware of the way in which black and Latino are not mutually exclusive (though we must also think about how people use black and African-American interchangeably, and this can lead to further confusion, because Manny, even with African ancestry, would not be African-American in the traditional way we use the word). One just needs to look at Manny’s former teammate David Ortiz to see a man who is both black and Dominican. I just don’t know if we have enough information, either phenotypic or genotypic, to determine the entirety of Manny’s background. Your greater point is still very relevant and salient, but I guess I am just curious about the assertion that Manny is “black”, when nothing I have witnessed of him as I have followed his career has indicated this to me. The dreads may be a bit misleading, since we typically associate them with blacks, but they are A) a fairly recent addition to Ramirez’s style and B) not limited to people with African heritage.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 5:30 pm ¶

64. BSK wrote:

    To clarify, my point is not to necessarily argue that Ramirez is not black. Rather, I think it is important that we do not make inaccurate determinations about someone else’s racial or ethnic make-up because it supports our argument. I do not know much about the other people mentioned, but I have followed Manny Ramirez’s career for some time, and have never seen any indication that he has black ancestry, either based on his appearance or any other information. It is entirely possible he is, but I don’t know that it’s our conclusion to draw because he has caramel skin, dreads, and him being black would help demonstrate the existence of black Latinos.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 5:33 pm ¶

65. Denise M. wrote:

    I’m embarrassed, as a black woman, to say that I didn’t know until college that Africans had been enslaved in Central and South America and that Latinos of African descent existed. I didn’t learn about them in my mostly white high school, and mainly “white” Latinos are shown in the media. Also, as its been said above, Americans tend to think of Latino as a race, rather than an ethnicity. I imagine most Americans don’t completely understand what the word “ethnicity” means, and that’s a big part of the problem.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 6:00 pm ¶

66. Penni Brown wrote:

    BSK – I’m curious.

    What indication would you need from Manny Ramirez to feel comfortable drawing the conclusion that he has black African ancestry?

    You’re counting out his brown skin and curly hair – his appearance. What ‘other information’ would you need see?

    …Is it that you don’t know any black people that look like him?

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 6:30 pm ¶

67. laromana wrote:

    Kat, bianca, and Blackivy,
    Thanks for helping to clarify what it means to be AfroHispanic/Latino .

    As an AfroHispanic/Latina American (of Dominican descent) born and raised in the U.S., what most annoys me about the racial classification GAMES that are played when it comes to AfroHispanic/Latinos, is the practice (of many Americans across the racial spectrum), of attempting to DEFINE AWAY the unique ethnic/cultural characteristics that make up this identity just because of our African ancestry. AfroHispanics/Latinos are racially mixed people primarily of African, Spanish, (and/or other European ancestry) and/or Indigenous/Native ancestry, who originate from several Latin American (SPANISH SPEAKING/SPANISH COLONIZED) countries (eg.Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Panama, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, etc.). AfroHispanic/Latino culture is a combination of African, Spanish, and Indigenous influences. The Dominican Republic, for instance, is the oldest Spanish colony in the Americas.

    It seems that to many Americans and certain Hispanics, only “LIGHTER/WHITER LOOKING” Hispanics or Hispanics who “LOOK” stereotypically Hispanic (whatever that is) are allowed to classify themselves as Hispanics WITHOUT HAVING THEIR IDENTITY CHALLENGED.

    When my sisters and I were children and attended a majority African American school, we were treated like aliens because we “LOOKED” Black but spoke Spanish, didn’t speak Ebonics, didn’t style our hair in an African American way, and didn’t eat the same foods as African Americans. It seems these African American children noticed that we had a diffierent culture but didn’t know what to make of us because they only had a Black or White box to put us in and they didn’t feel we fit either.

    I am especially offended by Latinos with the EXACT African, Spanish, (and/or other European ancestry) and/or Indigenous/Native racial mix as me or who are of Indigenous/Native Spanish ancestry who classify themselves as White just because they are not PERCEIVED as having any AFRICAN ANCESTRY. For example, there are famous Latina women like J.Lo, Vida Guerra, and Eva Mendes (WITH THE SAME AFRICAN/SPANISH and/or NATIVE/OTHER MIX AS ME ) but who are “LIGHTER/WHITER LOOKING”and are classified differently than more “BLACK LOOKING” Latinas, like Zoe Saldana, Arlenis Pena Sosa, or Sessilee Lopez. This is RIDICULOUS AND RACIST! We all know that
    in many families of MIXED AFRICAN descent there can people “WHO CAN PASS FOR WHITE” and others “WHO LOOK BLACK” but they are all part of the SAME FAMILY.

    AfroHispanics/Latinos essentially continue to be told to dismiss their ethnic and cultural backgrounds and identify as “JUST BLACK”. I am very proud of my African descent but it is not the ONLY part of my identity and I don’t feel that I should have to DEFINE AWAY my language, culture, and customs to conform to the limited perspectives of certain people in America and Latin America who are UNCOMFORTABLE with my AfroHispanic/Latina identity.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 7:52 pm ¶

68. deb wrote:

    I saw that picture and thought, did Veronica Chambers change her name? But, I see that she’s mentioned in Nadra’s piece.

    I’m a little slow.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 8:53 pm ¶

69. n wrote:

    @BlackIvy

    Interesting comment on Uhura. Is it more important that she be black or that she be African American?

    I know we all see things differently, but I for one don’t see Zoe Saldana as being less black appearing than Halle Berry or Nia Long or may other African American actors. And Miguel Nunez and Alfonso Ribiero certainly don’t qualify as less black and less nappy.

    And while the experiences of black folk in Latin America may not be the same as those of black folk in the USA, black folk in Latin America are also the descendants of enslaved Africans.

    I dont see many people who complain about AfroLatin actors being inauthentic also complain about Africans or Haitians or Jamaicans playing African American roles.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:29 pm ¶

70. n wrote:

    @BSK
    WHAT? Are you asking if Manny Ramirez has african ancestry or are you challenging the one drop definition of the word black? Manny is most definitely a man with African ancestors. And I doubt we need to use Manny to make a point with Sammy Sosa and Roberto Clemente to use instead.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 9:34 pm ¶

71. Cecily wrote:

    I was just going to weigh in on the Uhura issue with the Geek perspective. Namely, Uhura’s supposed to be African. In the episode “The Changeling” she spoke Swahili and it was implied it was her first language.

    Wikipedia says that in the episode “The Man Trap” it’s mentioned she’s from “The United States of Africa.”

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:20 pm ¶

72. BSK wrote:

    To reiterate, I personally have no investment in whether or not Ramirez has black or African ancestry. Rather, I was surprised to see how quickly the author concluding that he is, when I personally never saw any indication, and furthermore, did not see any indication from any other sources. I am fully aware that many/most individuals from the Caribbean (and other areas of Central and South America) are a mix of African, indigenous, and European ancestry, to varying degrees. From what I saw of Manny Ramirez, and new of his life, I always believed him to be of Mestizo background. Even if Manny does have African ancestry, I do not know that this would necessarily classify him as black, in the context that we currently use the word. David Ortiz is clearly a black man. Manny Ramirez is not *clearly* a black man, as far as I’m concerned, and I do not feel it is appropriate that any of us conclude that about him based on his hair, skin tone, and Dominican background. I am not saying he is absolutely not a black man; just that I feel it is irresponsible to draw that conclusion based on the data that the author provided.

    Again, I understand her point, and realize that her friend’s response (”Is he black or hispanic?”) demonstrates the issue at hand. I just don’t know that there is enough evidence to conclude that Manny Ramirez is black (and again, I have no investment in whatever his heritage ultimately is).

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:46 pm ¶

73. Jamericuban wrote:

    I am a 1st generation American-born female of Jamaican and Cuban heritage. It always strikes Americans as “fascinating” when I speak Spanish with my Puerto Rican boyfriend or Dominican best friend; they assume I learned the language from one of them because they “look” Hispanic. People don’t believe me when I tell them I’m half Cuban. I’m tired of pointing out that half of Cuba looks like me, dark with kinky hair!

    At the same time, you have the other end of the spectrum..a college roommate who was White, Jewish, and Cuban. People never believed this preppy-looking girl that went to temple was *gasp* HISPANIC.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:56 pm ¶

74. BSK wrote:

    To respond more specifically to N’s point:

    1.) I can not say definitively that Manny Ramirez has African ancestry, based on what I know about him and the data provided here by the original author.

    2.) And I suppose I am, indirectly, challenging the use of the ‘one-drop’ rule in this situation. Even if, as you say, Manny is “most definitely a man with African ancestry”, I do not now that this makes him ‘black’ in the way that we use the term today in America.

    Posted 09 Jun 2009 at 11:58 pm ¶

75. anna wrote:

    @ Cecily, – she’s supposed to be Bantu, from Kenya specifically.

    (But I loved Zoe! Those doe-eyes make me swoon.)

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 12:29 am ¶

76. Kara S. wrote:

    To BSK,

    How would you necessarily classify as a mestizo? I would not. He has obvious African heritage? He’s Dominican, so you can safely assume that some of his family may be as dark as David Ortiz. I’m just curious how he could be mestizo when there are little to no indigenous people on the island of Hispaniola? It’s not Puerto Rico.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 1:57 am ¶

77. Aiyo wrote:

    i don’t see latinos as being a “race” south america is no different to america in racial groups you have your white people who orginated from spain (or portugal if we include brazil) your native metizo who were already there the black people that were brought from west african as slaves and east asian people.

    people get race and ethnicity so confused

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 5:57 am ¶

78. Aiyo wrote:

    also many afro latino still pratice the yoruba religion of the orisha

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 5:58 am ¶

79. Celeste wrote:

    @BSK: I’m morbidly curious. So what do you mean by black?

    Even if, as you say, Manny is “most definitely a man with African ancestry”, I do not now that this makes him ‘black’ in the way that we use the term today in America.

    1. We use the term as a one drop rule “in America today”. That needs to change but I still don’t get how you’re defining the term.

    2. So if you have African ancestry you’re not in any part black? I’m confused. Does black to you mean that only African ancestry is discernable?

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 8:20 am ¶

80. N wrote:

    @BSK
    You said- “I agree with the general premise of the article, but are you sure Manny Ramirez is black, or has African ancestry?” and then

    “To respond more specifically to N’s point:

    1.) I can not say definitively that Manny Ramirez has African ancestry, based on what I know about him and the data provided here by the original author.

    2.) And I suppose I am, indirectly, challenging the use of the ‘one-drop’ rule in this situation. Even if, as you say, Manny is “most definitely a man with African ancestry”, I do not now that this makes him ‘black’ in the way that we use the term today in America.”

    Well, I’m quite sure he has African ancestry based on what I know about him. Whether that makes him black or not depends on who is making the call and the rules of the game where they live. Since race is a social construct, it is quite appropriate to assign him a race based on phenotype and country or origin pending further information. Brown skin, nappy hair, mulato features, Dominican=Black in the US. Even if it doesn’t mean black, its almost a given that he has African ancestors.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 9:32 am ¶

81. N wrote:

    @Celeste
    Hey, EVERYONE knows there are no black people in the DR, dark people are all “Indian”. Ask one.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 9:33 am ¶

82. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Umm, people?

    I had a dream last night that I interviewed Manny Ramirez and asked him if he identified as black, latino, both or something else.

    I was wondering why I had that crazy ass dream, and then I logged on to the comments.

    No more Manny comments, please.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 9:41 am ¶

83. N wrote:

    @ Latoya
    Sounds good to me, I was noticing a tendency to get bogged down on ONE point and forget the big picture.

    For those who are interested, there are plenty of sites that discuss afro-latin identity and a journal “Negritud” that has writings about Latin “negritude” from scholars throughout the Americas.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 9:58 am ¶

84. aimerrouge wrote:

    Not a question, but a comment, as Black person whose nationality isn’t African – American and whose first language isn’t English who shares the caramel complexion of Manny Ramirez I’ve heard from others either I’m not Black or I’m mixed with something else. I just figured the people who offered those observations had such a low opinion of being Black they belived that they were offering me some sort of compliment. I just exhaled moved on, I know what I am.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 10:08 am ¶

85. aimerrouge wrote:

    @ Latoya -> You dream about us?

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 10:09 am ¶

86. Brandon wrote:

    Latoya, your sense of humor is ON today. Thanks for adding a light touch when needed. You rock.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 10:13 am ¶

87. jen* wrote:

    I just remember when our family had an exchange student from Barcelona, she would get very highly upset if someone referred to her as Hispanic. So, I got the impression that that term does not apply to people from Spain.

    The explanation of the terms as being continental/regional makes more sense to me [Latin@ - Latin America, Hispanic - Hispaniola and surrounding Caribbean islands, Spanish - Spain].

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 12:09 pm ¶

88. Talis wrote:

    n said:

    I dont see many people who complain about AfroLatin actors being inauthentic also complain about Africans or Haitians or Jamaicans playing African American roles.

    —

    I am of Haitian of descent and choose to typically identify as Haitian American, Carribean American, or Black. It’s different because while Jamaicans, Hatians, Trinidadians, etc come from a different culture we still, and I’m generalizing, identify as black or at least with having African heritage.

    It often seems like a different case with Hispanics.

    I love Zoe so this is not a slam against her and I don’t claim to know how she personally identifies, but i think the problem many have (myself included at times) with casting Afro latin people in African American roles is the fact that many afro latin people refuse to to acknowledge that they have any african heritage what so ever. They have no problem claiming the Spanish and/or Native Indian parts of themselves but completely disown the African part of the mix. They act like its an insult to be black. So when they express this attitude and then are selected for and accept ‘black’ roles it is like a slap in the face.

    I think another facet of the problem is that in the hispanic acting community darker complected people are passed over in favor or lighter/whiter folks.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 1:17 pm ¶

89. Luis wrote:

    According to the U.S. (where these terms were first employed):

    Hispanic means you come from a Spanish-speaking country. This does include Spain. Does not include Brazil.

    Latino means you come from a Latin American country. This includes Brazil. Does not include Spain.

    The distinction is often more political than categorical. Each word has taken on local shades of meaning depending on where you are in the U.S.

    Neither term denotes a person’s racial background, or even their previous ethnic background. Latin Americans are not only descended from Spaniards, Portuguese, West Africans, Central Africans, and Amerindians. They are also descended from British, French, Italian, Lebanese, Jewish, German, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and many other peoples. For example, 60% of Argentines have some Italian ancestry, and there are more Japanese descendants in Brazil than in any other country in the world outside of Japan.

    The End.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 2:33 pm ¶

90. hola wrote:

    Okay, Hispanic does not refer to “the island of Hispaniola”, I have no idea where some of the commenters here have gotten that information. Although Hispanic and Latino seem to be both interchangeable and nevertheless imbued with different political meanings to those who choose to identify with one of these terms over the other, the bottom line is that there is no such thing as a mainland Latin America/Caribbean divide inherent in these two terms. The island of Hispaniola, which is at present divided between the Dominican Republic and Haiti, has nothing to do with the terms Hispanic and Latino, the island and the ethnic demonym share only a Latin root word.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 2:36 pm ¶

91. hola wrote:

    @Luis: cosign!!!

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 2:38 pm ¶

92. Luis wrote:

    @Talis

    All very true. Zoe is one of the (a growing number) of Dominicans who recognizes her African heritage, which is why, as a Dominican-American, I feel comfortable seeing her play African-American roles.

    It is frustrating that she gets predominantly Af-Am roles, while her contemporary Dominican-American actress, Dania Ramirez, gets Latina roles because she looks more middle of the road mixed. It’s like Alexis Bledel (Rory Gilmore): if you look “too” white or “too” black, you’re excluded from playing a Latina on screen. That needs to change.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 2:38 pm ¶

93. Zahra wrote:

    @ Wendi

    Thanks for the clarification. I knew the term lusophone, but I have to admit I’ve only ever seen it written, never heard it used aloud. Your point about some second-generation Brazilian-Americans using the term “Latino” is an interesting one–it begs the question, when can we use terms to build bridges for political solidarity and when do they just ride roughshod over very different identities?

    @ Cecily & anna– Thanks so much for the Uhura clarification. Satisfies my inner geek.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 4:42 pm ¶

94. karak wrote:

    You know what’s weird? I’ve taken three classes on Latin America, I’ve done in-depth papers on largely black hispanic populations… and I could totally see myself asking that same dumb question.

    I don’t know why. There’s just some default assumption in my brain that says you can’t have more than one identity at a time. If you’re hispanic, you are not white or black, but brown. Period. Even though I know better.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 5:50 pm ¶

95. RCHOUDH wrote:

    This post has broadened my understanding alot about the Afro-Latino/a identity. And I agree with posters above who mentioned that (North) Americans have to change their understanding and perception of who qualifies as being Latino/a. The predominant misconception is that Latinos are predominantly “brown”. And what’s even more annoying is to hear people categorize all Latinos as being Mexican, as if that’s the only Latin American country out there! I’ve also become fascinated lately with the way Latinos classify themselves and the racial hierarchies that result thanks to posts like this on Racialicious. I remember taking a college class with a Dominican American professor and she once casually claimed that Dominicans looked down upon Haitians because they were “black”. I always wondered why that was so and now I’m discovering some of the reasons.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 7:00 pm ¶

96. Ana wrote:

    “Hispanic” and “Latino” mean the same thing here in the United States.
    Latin Americans at home do not use the term” Hispanic” to refer to themselves. I think the term Latino is more accurate because it links a people to a region .

    I am a proud Afro Latina/ Panamanian/Afro Panamanian. I was born in the beautiful and enchanting Republic of Panama.

    Afro Latinos always identify first with their native country, or the homeland of their parents if they are born outside of Latin America.

    I do not see why identification with one’s place of birth or parents’ homeland is anti-black.

    Black people in Panama, Haiti, Cuba,Colombia, Venezuela,Puerto Rico,Brazil and the Dominican Republic have more African traditions than any other ethnic group throughout the American continent.

    Black latinos are often accused of denying their blackness; but let us face the truth, blacks who are non-black Latinos do the same thing too.

    The majority of Afro latinos or blacks from Latin America do not deny their black identities.African traditions are too strong in Latin America to be denied. The culture of Black Latinos encompasses African,Spanish and Native American traditions.

    Someone mentioned that Panama is a black country. Panama is a predominantly mestizo country with a sizeable black population that is highly educated.

    In Panama along the Atlantic coast there is a “Reina Congo”( Congo Queen) , a tradition from the post slavery days in which a woman is selected and then groomed to be queen of her community.
    Alejandrina Lan, “Reina Congo “is more than a cultural representation of black Panamanians, she is a vital connection to our African traditions.

    It does not bother me when Latinos or anyone else deny that they are not black . I don’t understand why it bothers some people.
    It sounds like they are some kind of racial KGB.

    In Panama, with all the racial mingling, I have seen Chinese, Native American,white, and black people say they are not what they looked like.
    It is not my business to fuss about that.

    I don’t even know if my compatriot, New York Yankee relief pitcher, Mariano Rivera identifies himself as black .

    I think he sees himself as Panamanian only.And both he and his wife are dark skinned.In no way I view Mariano Rivera and his wife as anti-black.

    Many black Panamanians often jokingly say: “I know I am black, I don’t know about you”.

    Latin American countries are famous for their “regionalismo”, provinces that have African, Native American, or Spanish traditions, influence the way how people living there see themselves.
    Being caught up with the way how people look can be deceiving.

    In Panama we had a black president long before the United States.
    Carlos Antonio Mendoza was president in 1910,and the United States government masterminded to get him out of office.

    Juan Materno Vasquez, a black man, served as “Magistrado Presidente” (equal to Chief Justice, this position is not for life )on Panama’s Supreme Court during the years 1978-1982.

    Panama had a black woman on its Supreme Court as Magistrada Presidente. Graciela Dixon de Cerrud served as Magistrada Presidente from 2006-2008.

    Panama had a black woman as “Primera Dama” (First Lady).
    Ana Mae Diaz Chang de Endara was Panama’s first black First Lady when her husband Guillermo Endara (a member of the white elite ) was president during the years 1989-1994.

    Being proud of my Panamanian culture and traditions is in no way a denial of my blackness.

    As Ruben Blades said in one of his songs, “allá está mi casita y mi mamita” (there is where my house and my mom are).

    Un cordial saludo,
    Ana

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 7:15 pm ¶

97. soreal789 wrote:

    Man, this really hits close to home! I am Dominican and half my family are black skinned while the other half are on the lighter scale, with me being the lightest.

    Frequently, people look at me and kind of do a double take and try to determine what my “race” is. Usually, people just assume I am 1/2 white and 1/2 black and then get stunned when I speak fluent Spanish back. But as we all know (or should know), Dominicans are a mix of a lot of peoples, so it’s more accurate to say that we are of mixed racial heritage.

    The looks are even more bizzare when I walk with my sisters who are much darker than I am (one with an afro, too)! Then it’s the ” how can you possibly be related?!” questions. HA!!

    Love all my black Latinos and Latinas out there! Y’all are my family!

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 8:25 pm ¶

98. Alex wrote:

    THANK YOU for this post. I should stop being baffled at this point when people express disbelief that someone can black and Latino, or of Asian descent and Latino, or even lily-white and Latino. It’s, like, caramel or nothing to some people. Which is especially disconcerting in New York because there are so many Latinos of all shapes and colors and backgrounds here. I think it’s a matter of “non-Brown” Latinos not really being represented in the media, (this is a big one) not having their own readily-identifiable stereotypes associated with them, and a case of people simply not opening their eyes and minds to others around them.

    Posted 10 Jun 2009 at 11:05 pm ¶

99. BSK wrote:

    LDP-

    Apologies. My point was less about Manny specifically, and more about how we assign characterizations to people, accurately or not, for our own benefit. Manny’s heritage is not the point. My bad if I somehow lead to this point being overblown.

    Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 12:37 am ¶

100. Sally wrote:

     This is just a small example of this topic, but last year there was an episode of ‘Scrubs’ where in which Carla (a light-skinned Latina), the wife of Turk (an African-American man), was concerned that people would not know their baby daughter was Afro-Latina at a glance, setting their kid up for having to explain herself/ have a hard time connecting to her Latina heritage. The moral of the episode was, of course, “And it all worked out for everyone”, but I did appreciate that they at least tried to discuss a racial dynamic that you rarely hear about in pop culture.

     Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 11:14 am ¶

101. BlackIvy wrote:

     I just wanted to clarify re my earlier Uhura comment. Props to the star trek geek who knows she is supposed to be Kenyan. I lived in Kenya for 6 years and loved that about her character. However, historically her character has meant alot to black americans because she was one of the first black women to have a tv role where she was not a nanny or a maid. She was glamorous, beautiful, and even shared the first interracial kiss on tv (ignore the fact that Kirk was under some kind of spell when he kissed her and ignore that she was really just a glorified secretary ). At anyrate, I think she resonated with people because htey saw a beautiful woman like them on the screen. I guess I just dont feel like Zoe is “like me” in the same way. Just like Peurto Rico and Mexico or Boliva and Chile have different cultural identifications I guess I dont see the harm in wanting my specific black american icons preserved as such. And I also anticipate people saying (which I have often heard) “oh, shes cute cuz shes not really black, shes hispanic.” I know we are all mixed to some degree but black americans, unless they are extra pale, just arent seen as such and we get “full credit” as it were for our blackness. I know how ridiculous that sounds but that is how it is. I just want to see a brown, nappy girl be the one to kiss the captain for once. But thats not all. If she were nappy hispanic I would mind less, but I would still mind. For me and alot of older women Uhura was more than just a character — she was a civil rights icon of sorts. I know we all share in the struggle, but in some ways I feel like this was our victory to enjoy. I mean, what if they cast a Mexican to play Bolivar? I dunno, im not mad at Zoe, I just wish a black american actress could have had that opportunity. Knowing hollywood I guess i should just be happy they didn’t cast Megan Fox

     Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 3:19 pm ¶

102. BSK wrote:

     I have a question regarding indigenous/aboriginal individual or those with indigenous/aboriginal heritage. I know people who come from areas close to or on the equator who demonstrate phenotypic traits similar to African blacks, but who do not have any direct African lineage. These people hail from countries like India, Australia, and Southeast Asia. Many of these people are mistaken for being black or African-American because of their dark skin and/or the texture of their hair. Are there any groups from South America that could be described as such as well?

     Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 3:34 pm ¶

103. Daniel Jimenez wrote:

     I don’t think that afro-latinos who prefer to identify themselves by their nationality rather than their race are negating their blackness. As some commenters pointed out, many afro-latinos believe that in the U.S. the words “black” or “African-American” are generally understood as “black-american: born and raised in the US”. Therefore, afro-latinos do not feel that words like “black” or “African-american” are representative of their life experiences, and they may feel that their national identity is much accurate to define them.

     I am a white Spaniard who has been living in the U.S. for the last three years, but I was born and raised in Spain until I was 25. And I also think that the term “white” (in the American sense) is not accurate to describe my life experiences. Just like “black”, the word “white” has a cultural baggage in the US that is very different from other regions of the world. To me the word “Spaniard” is much more effective to define my life experience than the word “white”. That doesn’t mean that I am betraying my roots or anything like that. It’s just that the term “white” doesn’t speak about my experiences as effectively as the word “Spaniard” does.

     Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 8:44 pm ¶

104. Emmeaki wrote:

     Celeste wrote: I wish that more black Latinos would openly identify as such. It’s such a big slap in the face when someone who looks like me asserts that he or she is *not* black, he or she is latino only.

     But, what would them identifying as black accomplish? Why are Americans trying to force antiquated ideas of race on other groups of people? Why can’t a Cuban just be Cuban and a Puerto Rican just be Puerto Rican regardless of skin color? If they don’t classify themselves by race, then why should we?

     Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 10:27 pm ¶

105. Emmeaki wrote:

     There’s also the “Manny Ramirez” and whether or not he has black ancestry issue. What’s so hard to understand about Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans, etc. having mixed ancestry? Slaves were taken to Latin America too, so a lot of Latinos are mixed to various degrees, hence various skin colors and hair textures. There are also Latinos who look white or black in the way Americans define race.

     I am a black (American) woman with brown skin and curly hair and people regularly mistake me for being Latina. (especially here in NYC.) My Spanish is good since I’ve been speaking it since I was six and I don’t have much of an accent. People are surprised to find out that I’m NOT Latina!

     There was a time when I was at a restaurant with my coworkers, a Colombian guy and a Dominican women and I noticed that all three of us had the same skin color and hair texture.

     I had another coworker from Honduras who had brown skin and dreadlocks and without knowing his heritage one would just assume that he was African-American or Jamaican. In any case, what matters is culture and people can’t let skin color and hair texture alone define who they are.

     Posted 11 Jun 2009 at 11:00 pm ¶

106. Celeste wrote:

     @Emmeaki: So these people consider themselves raceless? Really? Or is it that they are a member of the not-in-any-way-shape-or-form-black race? I guess if someone doesn’t claim *any* other race in their heritage then I’d have to respect that. However, I wouldn’t approve of someone who identifies as a raceless Cuban, Puerto Rican, etc. playing a part that’s for a black person of whatever ethnicity. None of this everything but the burden business, please. Identifying as a black latino would be acknowledging that an ancestral connection exists. It just seems a bit silly that if I go to the Dominican salon and everyone’s getting relaxer but *I’m* the only black one. I’m not saying that I’ve had that experience, most of the black Dominicans (especially at the salon) I know easily handle the concept of being both. Also, how is the concept indentifying all parts of your racial heritage antiquated?

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 9:01 am ¶

107. N wrote:

     @Ana
     Not all Afro-Latinos identity first by country then by race. My husband identifies as a black man. One day we were talking to an Afro-Panamanian friend of his about someone and we commented “Bob is not latino,Bobis African Ameican” and the friend said,”Same, thing”.

     Afro Latins intermarry with African Americans at a high rate. Afro Latins intermarry with other Afro Latinos regularly. I said intermarry because they are often mixed nationality. A black Cuban may be more likely to marry a black Puerto Rican than marry a Mexican or a white Colombian.

     So there can be a sense of black identity and of being part of a larger community of american afro descended people, even though in general racial identity is secondary to national identity.

     So there are examples of

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:13 am ¶

108. N wrote:

     @Black Ivy
     Zoe Saldana isn’t brown and nappy?

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:15 am ¶

109. N wrote:

     @Black Ivy again.
     Why was Uhura’s victory to you a victory only for African American women and not all black women? I’m not saying you are wrong to feel that, but I suppose I always saw it as a sign that women of African descent were making progress.

     Is Obama’s victory less a victory for you because he is the son of a white American woman and a black Kenyan? I presume you are black and descended from Africans brought to the USA, and if so then Obama isn’t one of yours.

     I do know people who DO feel that the Obama victory is not one for African Americans in general. Colin Powell is Jamaican, Obama Kenyan- when can a regular old USA slave descended brother get that high?

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 10:23 am ¶

110. cara wrote:

     i don’t get what’s behind the confusion either! “Black” and “Hispanic” are not mutually exclusive catagories. Also, what’ the difference b/t being a Black woman of Asian, Native American, and White descent and being “American.” Is just symantics or what? By considering myself black that does not negate my “American-ness” – or does it? hummmm…..

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 3:38 pm ¶

111. BlackIvy wrote:

     Zoe Saldana is brown but certainly not nappy unless she gets a relaxer right before every picture she ever took . Also, while a victory for brown girls is a victory for brown girls, there are differences that, when ignored, undermine our unique experiences. A Japanese person might prefer their history be represented by one of their own regardless of whether or not an Asian American star achieving prominence is a victory for all Asian Americans.

     Similarly, while I love Obama and do see is victory as one for black america, I obviously would feel even more strongly about his victory if he were black american. The fact that he so strongly identifies as black and has married a black american woman helps me to accept him as a representative of our people. Additionally, he has no conflicting identification as he did not know his father’s family, and, as we all know, blacks in america, even when raised by whites, find it difficult/impossible to identify as white. Thus, he defaulted into/chose black american culture.

     Actually, I think the issue of choice is important. I think I have a sense that if you have a dual identity you prefer the one that is not black american. I feel, and this im sure is not universally true, but I feel that there is often an effort to distance ones self from black american-ness. Thus, if I examine my feelings, I think part of my frustration is from a feeling that Zoe is benefiting from playing black americans while at the same time she would prefer not to be seen personally as such. Obviously this may be unfair, but it is a defensive response born from years of feeling like everyone wants to be everything but black american.

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:15 pm ¶

112. BlackIvy wrote:

     Also, interesting note: Born Zoe Yadira Zaldaña Nazario to a Dominican father and Puerto Rican mother, the New Jersey-native moved to the Dominican Republic at age nine after her father passed away in car accident. It was then that Saldana’s mother encouraged her to embrace her dark skin and curly hair: “When we were little, my friends and cousins ironed their hair, but my mother braided or teased ours.”

     Curly does not equal nappy

     I just want to confirm that I am not saying that she isn’t black (which is the real topic of this thread) but that as a black american I just wanted to see a black american in a role historically played by a black american. I think shes great though.

     From Zoe:

     When I go to the D.R., the press in Santo Domingo always asks, “¿Qué te consideras, dominicana o americana?” (What do you consider yourself, Dominican or American?) I don’t understand it, and it’s the same people asking the same question. So I say, time and time again, “Yo soy una mujer negra.” (”I am a black woman.”) [They go,] “Oh, no, tú eres trigueñita.” (”Oh no, you are ‘dark skinned’”) I’m like, “No! Let’s get it straight, yo soy una mujer negra.” (”I am a black woman.”)

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:24 pm ¶

113. BlackIvy wrote:

     ALso, check this out http://jayfingers.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/angelina-jolie-is-the-hottest-black-woman-on-the-planet/

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 4:27 pm ¶

114. Emmeaki wrote:

     Celeste said : Also, how is the concept indentifying all parts of your racial heritage antiquated?

     I think that it’s antiquated because it’s a continuation of the slave master’s one drop rule that was used to keep black people enslaved and inferior, even those who were 1/4, 1/8, 1/16th black, etc.

     Race isn’t just about biology, it’s about politics and our American political notion of blackness isn’t shared all throughout the world.

     Again, we can’t expect people from other countries to define themselves the way we do in America. They know where their ancestors came from. They don’t have to call themselves black to acknowledge this. If a Latino/Latina has kinky hair, full lips, brown skin and such, it’s clearly obvious that they have African ancestry.

     Posted 12 Jun 2009 at 5:04 pm ¶

115. Ron wrote:

     I know my family has Ethiopian, Arab, African, Cuban, Trinidadian, Jamaican, and Puerto Rican in it. The children of these unions usually see themselves just as black people.

     Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 1:31 am ¶

116. Adrianna wrote:

     That ’s funny How you said that Latino = Mexico in the US , because I saw a commercial on Univision where this white American men buys a round of beers for a bunch Latina women and he asks them where they a re from and they say various cities in South America And Of course the guy says viva Mexico and the girls all say with annoyed expression looking at him Olale! As fro the reason why some black Latino won’t claim Black heritage it could internalized racism. darker skin people are not that popular around the world. Lighter whiter is better for some. I met a few Chicanos who despised being called Hispanic because for them the word is dripped in colonialism. I live in Haiti and come in contact with Dominicans. as I say In the Caribbean most people are mixed anyways . but mostly to everyone outside of the Caribbean if you look black then that is what you are period and adding Latino to it won’t change how people see you.

     Some Haitian don’t identify as black because some have colonist issues unless but some Haitian don’t identify as black because They are from Syria , Lebanon They rarely mix with other Haitian and mostly keep to themselves. My friend are mix black and German and identify as black Haitian, get mistaken for Latinos when they travel to the US.

     Posted 15 Jun 2009 at 3:21 pm ¶

117. DR wrote:

     I understand why some people may get confuse, I myself am Dominican, born and raised there, yes most of us have African ancestry, but we also have Spanish, Indian, Asian, etc thats why is so hard, i wont say hard but impossible sometimes to say i am half this and half that, because most of us don’t know the answer.

     I live predominately in a Dominican town, and i went to this party and some guys acted really surprised when they heard me speak Spanish, they thought i was Asian because of my eyes (trust me i was asking them if they was high or something, because i have big lips and nappy ass hair), but it hasn’t been the first time it happened.

     The other day a girl stopped my boyfriend and asked him where he was from, she thought he was from Turkey or something like that.

     For other countries like Mexico or Salvador, is easier to say what they ancestry is because they are not as mixed as other countries.

     So next time a Dominican or Puerto Rican or whatever says they are not Dominican and Black, is not because we are ashamed is because we ourselves have no clue what race is running through our blood.

     Posted 17 Jun 2009 at 2:56 pm ¶

118. Hibbs4Prez wrote:

     BSK, if you aren’t able to tell just by looking at Manny and knowing the country of his origin that he is a black Latino (or of African descent) then you are clueless. The Dominican Republic is joined at the hip with Haiti. Both were flooded with African slaves after the native populations died out because of disease brought by Europeans. But somehow a French surname ensures one is black (Haiti) while a Spanish surname gives you a get-out-of-jail card (Dominican Republic). It all goes back to the silly notion that Hispanics/Latinos are a race of people when they are not. But because of that ignorance or that copout many “black” folk from Spanish speaking countries place themselves under the Hispanic umbrella when they have to declare what racial category they belong to. I’m not sure if Manny feels the same way. What I do know is that he looks like plenty of African Americans that I have seen in my lifetime. For you to suggest he doesn’t suggests to me either you have had very limited exposure to African Americans or that his surname determined how you viewed him. If his last name was “Robinson” you wouldn’t even question this. Hell, manny isn’t even trying to hide it considering the dreads he sports these days.

     By the way ARod said in an interview to Sports Illustrated that he himself gets a bad rap from the press at times because “he’s black.” ARod is also from the Dominican Republic and I guess you were in the dark about his racial origins as well.

     There’s a great movie out about baseball players from the DR. Its called “Sugar”. If you see it you would understand very quickly the dominating racial group of most of its citizens .

     Posted 19 Jun 2009 at 6:46 pm ¶

119. LeMaur Baez wrote:

     Tell em girl. My mom is a black Dominican and my dad is white, and I came out looking black with dark caramel skin and “white people” hair. And people always ask me, so are you Black or Hispanic, and i always get so mad, I’m like both, and so they’re like “which parent is black and which is hispanic?” SMH at these ignorant americans.

     Posted 22 Jun 2009 at 11:54 pm ¶

120. Brothel Poet wrote:

     I am annoyed for some reason. I am African American and my ancestry is- on both sides- African, European and First Nations (Canadian term for Native American.) When I was in my sister’s mostly Spanish speaking neighborhood in New Jersey, my mother and I were often mistaken for Spanish speakers as well. (And we both sorta kinda speak French, which is a part of our ethnic heritage). Know why? Because people in Cuba, South and Central America and the Carribean are a mixture of – African, European, First Nations – as well as Asian, and Southeast Asian. I also suspect my family has Southeast Asian ancestry. So what? Nobody wants to be related to or identified as black because a number has been done us for so long. It’s kind of sickening. When will we stop tripping and realize that blackness was denigrated because of its beauty as well as despite it? Black is beautiful and I think the editors of Racialicious need to start talking about why this hatred of dark occurs. I think it has to do with how beautiful aesthetically darkness is, and the amazing contributions of dark skinned people across the globe. I think this post gets obsessed with how we are perceived and needs to start reclaiming why Asian, Southeast Asian, First Nations, Arabic, South, Central, Carribean Americans have become so threatening to the European populace. I think this is a healthy way to heal the internalized inferiority complex that has come to characterize almost every single last person of color on this planet. Not to reverse racism but to look at its roots. Maybe if we look at the fact that Africa is truly the cradle of civilization and humanity, so many people around the world would not fear and loathe their African heritage.

     Posted 01 Jul 2009 at 4:23 pm ¶

121. Brothel Poet wrote:

     PS
     I just read an interview of Alex Haley when I googled the Roots of Racism, because I find this whole thing intriguing. One thing he noted is that racism is ancient and pervasive. And you can go to a country where everyone “looks alike” and find racism. Yet, somehow, in modern society, we are left with the fact that blackness is the worst thing to be. And that people from everywhere never want to be identified as Black American, sometimes out of accuracy and pride in one’s Carribean or Latin heritage, but sometimes because people simply have contempt for black Americans in general. But my question is- wh is blackness sooooo uncomfortable for people? Historically, subconsciously, aesthetically…. why? I know blacks who will claim anything- any other “hated” group of people in order to not be aligned with blackness. Is this because of slavery? The slave trade? I am curious.

     Posted 01 Jul 2009 at 4:42 pm ¶

122. Toni_Bahia wrote:

     The most black people in the whole the america’s speak portugese (Brazil)
     The the second biggest language would be spanish then english then french
     (If I am wrong someone please correct me)

     I find it amsuing when afro americans tell me i’m not really black i am brazillian I tell t hem I am afro brazillian long kinky curly hair and darker skin than most of them LOL

     and many afro brazillian still pratice arfican yoruba religions and brazillian probably has the largest black population in the world outside of africa of course.

     A lot of people need to be educated because many african slaves were brought here.

     Oh and i find it funny when people say how native americans are extinct when there are many idigenous people but just happen to speak spanish there are still hipatchi tribes here in Brazil.

     Oh by the way does anyone doubt Christina Millian’s blackness? Since she is Afro Cuban

     Posted 04 Jul 2009 at 7:57 pm ¶

123. Lola wrote:

     I think that sometimes people can not identify as black without necessarily being ‘anti-black’, especially since its often associated in America with being African or African American. For example, my grandfather is Colombian and has very dark skin but if you ask him where he is from he’ll say he’s Colombian, not black-colombian because his dark skin comes from having ancestors from various latin american indigenous tribes that also had dark skin. Another reason is that he is already aware that you can have different people from one country with varying skin colors (ex. his father was very light skinned with blond hair and blue eyes because of the Spaniard that came over to latin america but they are both Colombian). I also think alot of people identify themselves by what country they grew up in, as opposed to pointing out every single detail of their heritage. My mother is Colombian-Austrian (Colombian father, Austrian mother) and she identifies as Colombian because that is where she grew up, not because she is trying to hide the fact she is Austrian. I identify as American, even though i am American-Colombian-Austrian because it is the simplest answer (its what is on my passport) and I don’t like to get into the lengthy explanation of where I’m from and why I have never lived in any of those countries (except for a couple years in Austria in middle school). It doesn’t mean I’m hiding my Colombian or Austrian heritage (if someone asks for a detailed answer I’m more than happy to give them the explanation) but it just means that I have no desire to detail my entire heritage.
     Another example is people who are American who’s great great great great grandparents imigrated from, say, Italy. They typically say they are American because thats where they lived and they have no cultural ties to Italy anymore, even though if you go way way back there is Italian blood in them.

     Posted 21 Sep 2009 at 3:24 am ¶

124. Alberto wrote:

     i ama a black latino myself my family is from panama and that is the culture we know best .i COnsider myself hispanic as a black person of african heritage. I dont see why peopl are so confused on this topic that hispanics can be BLACK its 2009 you people need to get over it. I think its just because the american viewing of a hispanic is one of light skin , so when they see a black person speaking spanish they get all confused. I for one had situations where people get all confused when i say im panamanian because they expect me to be either african-american or something else. I think it has to do with the lack of knowledge people have for LATIN AMERICAN history . TEACH IT IN SCHOOLS!!

     Posted 26 Sep 2009 at 4:32 pm ¶

125. Safronia JnBaptiste wrote:

     Well! I am a black panamanian and a Spanish teacher. My students are confused no matter how I explain the situation to them. They would ask, did you learn Spanish enough to teach us. They want to know if I am black or Hispanic and I tell them that I am fortunate to share two cultures. My hispanic kids that are white at times will tell my non-hispanic students that they aren’t blacks in some of these hispanic countries. I believe that some of the stereotypical that are in our communities come from our people itself. I have had Cubans, Dominicans and Puerto Rican say, you don’t look Hispanic. Can some please give me the Hispanic profile and how Hispanics should look in order to be considered Hispanic. Can we say that we want it to reflect on this perfect European look. False… I hope when Soledad O’Brein features the Latinos in America, she features every aspect of the Latino Spectrum. Black and White.

     Posted 06 Oct 2009 at 9:18 pm ¶

126. Raymond Paterson wrote:

     This all comes down to ignorance. Black latinos
     are treated like garbage in their own countries,
     so when they come to Canada or the US, they want nothing to do with black culture. White
     latinos are some of the most racist people in the world. The CNN feature did not focus enough on the black latino experience. The
     Spannish slave master fooled a lot of these
     black latinos to give up their african heritage.

     Posted 26 Oct 2009 at 8:32 pm ¶

127. sasha wrote:

     I am a dark Hispanic, and I hate it that people refer to Hispanic or Latino as if it is a race, its a cultural reference. Because we live in race obsessed America. it’s har for many people toknow how toclassify people becuase most in the U.S. are ignorant of how dispersed Africans have been through out South American and the Caribbean. Most Hispanics know they have black blood but they always try tomarry lighter and hide it,

     Posted 28 Oct 2009 at 9:40 pm ¶