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1. Going Back Like Babies and Pacifiers; Why I Love Mariah at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 01 Jun 2009 at 8:00 am

   [...] about a week ago, while discussing Nick Cannon’s accusations that the Mariah-inspired Eminem song “Bagpipe…, the discussion that fell out of the post made me wonder if, after all, there was some need to [...]

2. the music of my life « Molecular Shyness on 03 Jun 2009 at 12:26 am

   [...] and of course there are all those posts about MC on Racial-isshas which have had me a tad fired up sometimes.  Mariah’s been part of [...]

Comments

1. Jeremy wrote:

   I have a pdf screenshot of Cannon’s post in its entirety…email me for a copy.

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 1:18 pm ¶

2. Karen wrote:

   I’m not a fan of raunchy rap lyrics to begin with so I kind of wish rap music in general would fade away to obscurity. The only kind that I like is nerdcore and rap-rock, all else is a big no thanks. And lastly, I think Mariah Carey and Nick Cannon make a nice couple. Shame on Eminem for saying those kind of things.

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 1:38 pm ¶

3. Persia wrote:

   I don’t know, but I’m kind of in love with Nick Cannon now, boytoy or no. Damn!

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 1:39 pm ¶

4. Shadow And Act wrote:

   *GROAN*

   Is any of this even real, or just more celebrity stunts?

   Go away Eminem… go away Nick Cannon and Mariah Carey…

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 1:58 pm ¶

5. Jeremy wrote:

   Here’s the screenshot of the full post before Cannon took it down:

   http://2dopeboyz.okayplayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/20090508-cannon.jpg

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 2:03 pm ¶

6. Rob Schmidt wrote:

   I didn’t know Mariah Carey was black.

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 2:08 pm ¶

7. Lizzie (greeneyedfem wrote:

   Celebitchy has the entire post quoted here: Nick Cannon says Eminem is Racist.

   It ends with: “So Miss Marshall, I’m going to make you wish you never spoke my name and regret the ungodly things you said about my wife. This is going to be fun! It’s however you want it! Just remember, you did this to yourself! Your legacy has now been tainted from this day forth! You will now be known as the rapper who lost to Corny-ass Nick Cannon!!!”

   I could do without the anti-woman “Miss Marshall” dig, but the last two sentences are hilarious.

   I see Eminem’s lyrics as disrespectful to women (Carey in particular since she’s called out by name), but I don’t know if I see what Cannon means in calling them “racist”?

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 2:25 pm ¶

8. SarahNicole wrote:

   enduring desire to convince everyone that she really should be mascot for radical mixed race women of colour everywhere.

   Thea, I will not hate, but can you explain just exactly how those feet and back-killing spiked heels are “radical,” other than in their actual height and effects on the feet, legs, and backs of those who wear them on the sort of regular basis that Ms. Mariah does???

   *snerk*

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 3:10 pm ¶

9. Fiqah wrote:

   Two things:

   1.) Is anyone else weirded out to see Eminem on Racialicious twice in one day? Reading the song lyrics and taking in Eminem’s whole “fuck Black America” thing I’m kinda shocked at the tone. So much for “some of my best friends/producers/fans are Black.” Shades of Asher Roth.

   2.) “Black queen”? For real? Since when has Mariah Carey self-identified as Black? I know that embracing/celebrating one’s multi-ethnic heritage is complicated, and can often take a whole lifetime to do, so I’m really not trying to be an asshole here about this. BUT – part of what enabled Carey’s initial image packaging was the fact that she wasn’t TOO “Black.” So I’m more than a little bit irked to hear someone (albeit her Black husband) describe her this way. Michelle Obama? Oprah Winfrey? MARIAH CAREY?! Stop playin’, Nick. A “Black/Colored When the Shit Comes Down” policy is just shady and disingenuous (and yes, I’m talking to YOU, J.Lo!). I’ll keep in mind that she didn’t actually make the statement…but.

   (For what it’s worth, I’ve always thought she had an extraordinary voice – hey, those Grammy’s don’t lie – and I’m glad she quit smoking so now most of it’s back.)

   Posted 22 May 2009 at 3:10 pm ¶

10. Thea wrote:

    @ Jeremy and Lizzie:

    Thank you for the full post!

    @ Lizzie

    I think Canon perceives Eminem’s comments to be racist because he’s attacking a black woman in a very sexually violent way…and there is a such a long history of white men doing that to black women that it just seems to fall in step with that. Considering the cultural context I do agree that there is always an undertone of racism that goes along with the disrespect of women of colour, as there is usually an undertone of sexism that goes along with racism against women of colour.

    @ Rob Schmidt

    Mariah Carey is as black as Barack Obama.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 3:33 pm ¶

11. Thea Lim wrote:

    @ SarahNicole

    My adoration of Mariah Carey is a long and involved convo that prolly deserves a post on its own…and honestly I’m not sure if I can justify it politically, or if I even need to! But for the moment I will say that I don’t think dressing as a high femme should necessarily negate being seen as radical…

    @ Fiqah

    Ahem. I’m not particularly comfortable with vetting Carey’s blackness. I think that’s pretty problematic. I would feel that way about any multi-ethnic person (as a multi-ethnic person myself), and one thing that I really appreciate about the Racialicious community is that generally we are not into trying to define how “black” someone is, and support self-identification.

    But to answer your question, Carey openly identifies as a woman of colour, and since she is ethnically black and since the mid-90’s mostly worked with black producers and artists and made R&B, which I suppose is considered “black” music; I have never had a problem with her identifying as a woman of colour.

    When she surpassed Elvis to hold the 2nd highest number of #1s in American music history (after the Beatles) I was particularly touched by her comments:

    “Carey said being in such company was gratifying not only because of her personal success, but what it meant for women and minorities.

    ‘For me, in my mind the accomplishment is just that much sweeter,’ she said. ‘In terms of my ethnicity, always feeling like an outsider, always feeling different … for me it’s about saying, ’Thank you Lord, for giving me the faith to believe in myself when other people had written me off.”’

    So that’s not exactly only identifying as black or multi-ethnic when you’re down.

    (link here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23918924/)

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 3:53 pm ¶

12. N wrote:

    Why isn’t Mariah black? From the moment I saw the Vision of Love video on BET I thought she was black. I’ve never seen her NOT self identify as a woman of color, I’ll overlook the hair and nose since she isnt the only woman of color to get a nose job and go blonde and straight.

    I can’t stand the girl, but she sings black music, collaborates with black artists, and married a black man. I do grow weary of people jumping on the beige. If you say you’re black you’re an impostor, if you don’t you’re racist and/or self hating.

    Identity is a personal thing and quite clearly Mariah has chosen to identify culturally with African Americans. Let her be.

    I love the angel and devil code switching of Nicks original post.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 3:54 pm ¶

13. Thea Lim wrote:

    Oops, one more thing and then I’ll stop: I am sure Carey’s whiteness has helped her success – in the same way that me being half-white makes some part of my way in the world a lot easier than it might otherwise be. Alicia Keys, another biracial artist, often speaks to knowing that she would not be as successful if she wasn’t “just black enough, but not too black.” I think that light-skinned privilege is something that a lot of mixed race people benefit from and struggle with. Nonetheless that’s no reason to invalidate our ethnic heritage.

    And thanks to Jeremy and Lizzie here is what Canon says about Carey’s heritage (from here)

    “Some people may not realize or tend to forget that my wife is a Black woman. And she has had enough difficulty in her life dealing with racial and ethnicity issues. Believe it or not, Mariah is the same racial mixture as our beloved president Barack Obama.”

    So yeah, part of my sticking with Carey has to do with mixed race solidarity And I have to say that I find it very moving that Canon, as a black man, goes out of his way to validate his wife’s ethnic mix. For me as as half-whitey, I have very much benefited from the support and validation of my community of colour.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 4:00 pm ¶

14. Tracey wrote:

    You know, usually when I see “men defending the honor “of women rhetoric (especially in the abscence of them making a statement theirselves) I am a little put off.
    However, this is freaking amazing, and the thought of Nick Canon tainting Em’s honor makes me think of Cannon in a jersey and running pants on a horse with a jovlin (I hope there’s an All That sketch to that effect). Also, from what I understand Em has made very racist comments, before he was major, in a song about a black woman he felt wronged by in a relationship before and black women in general(please correct if not true, last I heard he was ignoring/denying it.)
    Anyway, even if the earlier song with him calling black women n-words and gold diggers is not legit, he does have a history of completely bashing and demonizing the women in life he feels wronged by. I never liked him as an artist, but feel he does have real talent when it comes to writting lyrics (not always evident in the singles). But I am beginning to see he has a very mysigonistic pattern that does not appear to equally target men. Given his relationship with his mother and the way he talks about women who have supposedly wronged him…
    I think Nick Cannon may be pretty close to a bull’s eye (wish I had followed the story about the earlier tape). I think he goes a little far in his veneration of Mariah Carey and feel that may have been just a way to get support and appeal to people, but I think the racial factors do give it a different dimension.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 4:02 pm ¶

15. Tracey wrote:

    Oh. Here’s a post from when he owned up to the earlier song and apologized
    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,556826,00.html

    And some of the lyrics:
    Blacks and whites they sometimes mix
    But black girls only want your money cause they’re dumb chicks
    So I’ma say like this
    Don’t date a black girl, take it as a diss
    If you want, but if you don’t
    I’ma tell you like this, I surely won’t.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 4:07 pm ¶

16. Aine wrote:

    Nick rubbed me the wrong way. Granted, I haven’t read the lyrics, but…I’m always a bit put off when race is brought up when defending a woman. What does her racial background have anything to do with it? Yes, she is your wife, I am happy you think it is your duty to defend her, but she’s a “queen”? No. Em can’t have at her because of her blackness? WHAT?! Until Em starts solely attacking black women, who cares?

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 4:13 pm ¶

17. Aine wrote:

    Also, from what I scanned from Nick’s complete blog entry, he is making some pretty racist remarks himself.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 4:21 pm ¶

18. Kaonashi wrote:

    LOL, Nick Cannon is ALWAYS going off on someone regarding his wife; one night he had a huge Twitter fight with one of Mariah’s fans who dared to criticize her. As for Eminem, he’s always had a disgusting misogonystic view of women, but he seems to pick on Mariah A LOT and hr husband has finally had enough. Good for him.

    Mariah must have really worked some mojo on Eminem because its years later and he’s STILL writing song lyrics about her. I think the major issue that sticks in his craw is that she has never publicly acknowledged a relationship with him.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 4:28 pm ¶

19. Fiqah wrote:

    @Thea Lim:

    Ahem. I’m not particularly comfortable with vetting Carey’s blackness. I think that’s pretty problematic. I would feel that way about any multi-ethnic person (as a multi-ethnic person myself), and one thing that I really appreciate about the Racialicious community is that generally we are not into trying to define how “black” someone is, and support self-identification.

    Okay. I’ve been reading Racialicious for long enough to know that “vetting” Blackness is Not Cool. This is a sensitive issue, and I really don’t wish to offend anybody’s sensibilities, particularly with something as personal as self-identification. Which is why I stated that I wasn’t sure if Mariah Carey self-identified as Black in the way that Barack Obama – or Halle Berry, or Prince, or (multi-generationally biracial) Vanessa Williams, or any number of biracial Black people – do. She has stated from the beginning that she is a woman of color; I NEVER said she wasn’t a WoC, and just to clarify, I would never say that a self-identifying WoC wasn’t one. That’s not my call, and that’s not my way. I know that a lot of self-identified Black folks do this, so if you’re a little on the defensive here, I get it. I wouldn’t invalidate her ethnic heritage; that’s silly, since as a self-identifying Black American, I have NO IDEA what it feels like to be a first-generation biracial Black American WoC. I have not lived her life; it is beyond my power to know her story. Finally, benefiting from White skin privilege is something she can’t exactly help. Being light doesn’t make her any less of a WoC if this is how she sees herself; I know the “looks White” issue can be a particularly painful one, and if I touched a nerve with anyone by stating that the exploitation (by Motolla and Co.) of Carey’s heritages was a key factor in her early success then I am very truly sorry. All of us looks how we look, and whatever privilege we have or don’t have because of it is largely beyond our control.

    HOWEVER, Nick Cannon stated that Carey is “one of the most notable BLACK females of our time.” NOT “notable women of color.” BLACK females. In caps and everything. Mind you, Cannon then goes on to refer to Carey as a woman of color, and I DID say that Carey herself DID NOT make this statement. (Seriously, my comment was not an attack on her; if anything I was questioning Cannon.) He then goes on to state that folks would be up-in-arms at similar treatment of the FLOTUS (BTW, mainstream media was absolutely slamming Mrs. Obama ’round this time last year…but okay) or Oprah Winfrey. Not Halle Berry. Hell, not even BARACK Obama. Two self-identifying Black women. I can’t be the only one who finds that odd. In terms of experiences of racism, we have an apples-and-oranges situation here. I’m not gonna do that whole (Lord, I’m writing it) Oppression Olympics thing because it kills any healthy dialogue…but these things are not the same, and I resent them being paralleled in order to strengthen what would otherwise be a sturdy argument against sexism and probably racism on the part of Eminem.

    Oh, and regarding the whole Black music thing…sigh. I dunno, I’ll leave this alone, even Duffy was up (against ESTELLE) for a MoBo (Music of Black Origin) award not long ago.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 5:13 pm ¶

20. embarcader0113 wrote:

    Anytime a Black man wants to defend a Black woman and respect her honor, I am with it.

    Whenever a Black man says something WRONG about a woman, we * are the first ones to criticize and discuss how Black men oppress sisters. But when he does the right thing, we want to qualify it.

    Doesn’t work that way. I’m glad to hear him stand up for Black women, and his woman in particular.

    Good for Nick Cannon.

    * By “we” I mean all of those who blame hip-hop for all racial/ gender issues.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 5:37 pm ¶

21. GeeLennox wrote:

    I have no problem with a man defending his wife. Plus, I can’t stand Eminem.
    So, Team Carey/Cannon FTW!

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 6:09 pm ¶

22. elle the elephant wrote:

    This is just wrong all around. While I always been a Eminem and D12(I have the first two D12 albums,Devils Night and D12 World) fan when I was younger, as I get older I can no longer take their mysogynistic, homophobic, and juvinal rhymes. Eminem needs to evolve with his lyrics, move on to bigger and more mature things beyond attacking his mom and female popstars. And while Eminem’s attack against Mariah Carey are disgusting, I wouldn’t call it racist. Nick Cannon is right to defend his wife, but to turn this into a charge of racism seems going a bit overboard. I know racism when I seen it, and this just ain’t it.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 6:23 pm ¶

23. Ruchama wrote:

    I’ll overlook the hair and nose since she isnt the only woman of color to get a nose job and go blonde and straight.

    I don’t think she had a nose job. Nose jobs have a tendency to change your voice slightly, and sometimes drastically, so most serious singers wouldn’t consider it.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 6:28 pm ¶

24. Mahsino wrote:

    Okay, so the most important part of this rant to me was :

    But I guess it’s going to take a corny, wack rapping, boy toy from Nickelodeon to set you straight.

    Way to be self aware Nick Cannon!

    As for the song itself- I chalk it up to being just what Eminem does. I’m just so used to his particular brand of shock value that I’m indifferent.

    In the particular case of Eminem and his lyrics/music as a whole: I really think if Nick Cannon and Mariah just ignored his mere existence he’d stop and go away. He, like Howard Stern and Ann Coulter thrives on attention- without it they’ll all just go away.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 6:37 pm ¶

25. cb3n wrote:

    I dunno, I hear a lot of people saying this is misogynistic and sexist and so on, white at the same time denying Cannon’s assertion that Eminem’s lyrics towards Carey are racist, but I actually see his point although I think he did a crappy job explaining it. Or at the least there is an argument to be made about this type of hate speech being racist as well as sexist and misogynistic even if Nick Cannon isn’t consciously making it.

    Given the history of interactions between white men and women of color and the portrayal of women of color as exotified sexual fodder or prey not just as women but specifically as women who happen to not be white, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a white male to make this type of misogynistic comment about a woman of color and not have it be racist by default. So when Eminem calls Mariah Carey a whore, he is not only invoking a sexist legacy of men exerting power over women by calling them whores and treating them as sexual objects, he is also invoking the legacy of white people treating people of color as erotically exploitable and expendable.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 7:35 pm ¶

26. SarahNicole wrote:

    Thea — no, not necessarily, but those shoes of hers give me hives. Or, would give me bunions and make my back that much more sore. And stuff.

    This comment brought to you by my utter lack of ability to wear anything but flats at all comfortably. If I could wear flip flops forever and ever, I totally would…

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 8:14 pm ¶

27. nina wrote:

    @18 – a twitter fight? jesus christ…

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 9:46 pm ¶

28. jen* wrote:

    Thea, I’m totally feeling you on the MC-fan tip – I’ve been a fan since Vision of Love.

    I remember how she talked about her mixed heritage from day one, but for some reason, a lot of people didn’t pay attention, and then the Sandra Bernhards of the world wanted to put it out there that she was only black when it was convenient. [like there's a time that's it's really convenient to be black ::shrug::]

    I’ve heard her refer to herself as black in at least one interview, and while I’m not denying that she certainly has light skin privilege, she doesn’t have to prove anything to me.

    I love MC for lots of different reasons, and I’d love to hear more about her as the “mascot for radical mixed race women of colour everywhere.”

    As for what Nick said? I love that he’s ready to serve up a corny beatdown. The racist label may or may not be apropos, but I’m def on team MC/NC.

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 10:18 pm ¶

29. TMD wrote:

    Sadly, only black women who look like Mariah are worthy of having their honor defended.

    Nobody defended the Rutgers basketball women when they were called hoes. In fact, many ignorant black male entertainment Negroes jumped on the insult bandwagon.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 12:50 am ¶

30. n wrote:

    @Ruchama

    Mariah had her nose done a LONG time ago.At least once. I remember when she had hers done and when Halle had hers done, its not hard to tell.

    @Tracey
    I have no problem with any person regardless of gender defending a loved one. And Mariah seems to need (and not neccessarily in a weak helpless pathological female victim way) a champion, someone down for her and on her side. It seems everyone in her life has been using her to further their own goals and she has been taking care of people. If Nick wants to take care of her and stand up for her, I think she deserves it.
    I don’t “like” her, I think she is silly and simpering, but she seems selfaware nowadays and I respect that.
    And Nick seems more mature and self aware than I gave him credit for.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 12:55 am ¶

31. andalusia wrote:

    Man, Nick Cannon did NOT write that. It’ll come out sooner or later that the letter is a hoax.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 4:05 am ¶

32. Arabi wrote:

    “it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a white male to make this type of misogynistic comment about a woman of color and not have it be racist by default.”

    I don’t know, such an assertion seems to contribute to the stigmatisation of African-Americans. According to your model, any sort of conflict btw black/white or criticisms of a black person by a white is automatically a “race”issue and that I believe is far more problematic.
    Don’t overplay the role of a particular history in the our day to day consciousness.
    Given Em’s constant ripping of female celebrities that he finds annoying, to suggest that his tirade against Mariah somehow has an added dimension because she is a WOC is to assume ones own valuation of a certain social representation is the same for others.
    It reminds me of those comedians who are afraid to joke about Obama for rear of a racial blacklash, suggesting that his ethnicity and race trump even his position as Commander in Chief, the one man who is in the prime seat to receive our collective score, snarkiness, criticism, projections, etc.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 4:22 am ¶

33. Arabi wrote:

    Upon reading the lyrics, it seems like this is a really imaginative, violent and misogynistic break up letter(whats new for rock n roll)
    However, he makes numerous references to Nick himself which may in fact be Cannons main motivation for firing back,. Perhaps he is sticking up for his wife but he’s just as much sticking up for himself. So it doesn’t appear to be all self-less, Knight coming to the rescue of his Queen.
    And racialising the situation may in fact be an attempt to garner support from the black community in his coming “war” with Eminem because we all know that the winners in today’s’ rap battles are determined by units sold.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 4:29 am ¶

34. deathblossom wrote:

    Well, considering Eminem decided to ONCE AGAIN take his response from the ?-ist handbook with “I didn’t think you guys would get offended at being offended!” play, Nick can call him racially motivated all he wants and I won’t stand in his way. That said, Eminem talks about all women in that manner, so Mariah is not special, but good on Nick for finally saying something about it.

    Yes, it’s irksome Nick has to say something on behalf of his wife and it’s playing out like two guys fighting over a woman, but one, this is MARIAH, she is a bit…precious and probably did not want to deal with this and two, Eminem would have just found a way to be even more dismissive and offensive in a response to her.

    Also, this is probably just a poor choice of words, but I don’t think it not being racist makes it “simply about grudges & personal relationships, and maybe a smidge of male posturing” which sorta implies that what Eminem said is okay and there aren’t larger problems with both sexism and those things being seen as okay reasons to be a prick to an ex, especially in public.

    And on a final note…that song is damned near incomprehensible and Eminem should have stayed retired.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 4:40 am ¶

35. jvansteppes wrote:

    I’m confused about his reference to Michelle Obama, does he have a history defending her against media attacks? If so, right on. Mariah found someone nice.

    Not that Eminem’s stunt is a surprise. In addition to his racist, homophobic, misogynist lyrics he also consistently depends on getting attention by mocking other celebrities and using shock tactics like that vile album cover.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 6:25 am ¶

36. Lizzie (greeneyed fem) wrote:

    I think Canon perceives Eminem’s comments to be racist because he’s attacking a black woman in a very sexually violent way…and there is a such a long history of white men doing that to black women that it just seems to fall in step with that. Considering the cultural context I do agree that there is always an undertone of racism that goes along with the disrespect of women of colour, as there is usually an undertone of sexism that goes along with racism against women of colour.

    I absolutely see this — cb3n at #25 also says it right.

    I think it’s hard for some folks to recognize the way racism and sexism are layered together here because Eminem writes horrible lyrics about women in general and other (white) women in particular: his mom, his ex, other celebrities/singers like Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears, etc. So Cannon sees it as part of a pattern targeting WOC, but others may see it as simply part of a pattern about women (most of whom are white).

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 11:30 am ¶

37. Lizzie (greeneyedfem wrote:

    To be clear, #36 should read:

    “So Cannon sees it as part of a larger cultural pattern targeting WOC, but others may see it as simply part of Eminem’s pattern of targeting women in general (most of whom are white).”

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 1:57 pm ¶

38. Fiqah wrote:

    @TMD: While I do think that Cannon was being a good husband and defending his wife (with a lot of hyperbole) but his Imus reference gave me some serious pause.

    Calling my wife a “c-word” and a “whore” is way worse than anything Don Imus could have ever said

    Okay. Is everyone aware of what the word “ho” is short for? (Here’s a hint: it’s not a gardening tool.) So, um…not only did Imus actually refer to those young women at Rutgers as whores. He called them whores with a historically-racist qualifier. There wasn’t anything subtle or ambiguous about it. It was an in-your-face, balls-the-fuck-out racism/sexism twofer.

    Now, Eminem’s stunt is atrocious on levels. I think a boycott by various communities of his new album would not be a bad idea, since at the end of the day no matter how offensively loony tunes he gets, it’s about money. Further, I think a public vendetta against your ex-girlfriend is just tacky. BUT there are ways to publicly defend the person you love in a way that properly and sensitively addresses her experiences of sexism/racism as a WoC WITHOUT invoking the experiences of other WoC who endure a very different, very specific brand of racism. Nobody has ever called Mariah Carey “Stokely Carmichael in a dress.” Nobody has ever ridiculed Mariah Carey for her dark brown skin and phenotypically Black features. Nobody has ever called Mariah Carey a nappy-headed ho. And you know what? Nobody ever will.

    BUT. That doesn’t mean that anybody with a pulse, a conscience, and an anti-racist bone in their body shouldn’t be disturbed about this incident.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 2:16 pm ¶

39. RCHOUDH wrote:

    Even though the song is catchy the lyrics to that damn song make absolutely no sense. I mean why is it titled “Bagpipes to Baghdad” and what does that have to do with Mariah Carey and Nick Cannon??? When I first heard the name I thought it was a war song with some deep message attached, like how America’s warmongering is destroying its youth, sort of akin to similar past songs by Green Day, Mike Shinoda, etc. I think he was smoking something while concocting this song!

    As for Cannon’s smackdown, I have no problem with him coming to his wife’s defense. It’s pretty pathetic of Eminem to dig up past alleged relationships for his new album. I mean does he have nothing else going on in his life right now? Is there no other woman in his life for him to lyrically bash on?/sarcasm. At first I also thought Cannon was stretching it with bringing up race in this, but now that I’ve read everybody’s else take on this, I can see how Em’s bashing on Mariah can be construed as being racist.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 6:49 pm ¶

40. bdsista wrote:

    Co-sign:
    Arabi wrote:

    “it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a white male to make this type of misogynistic comment about a woman of color and not have it be racist by default.”

    I am so glad Nick is defending his wife and Mariah is a WOC. there is a joke that says “Once you’re on the cover of Jet magazine, you’re black.” Well she’s been on there several times.
    I hope there is a boycott and they shut Eminem down! I have never liked his music and really dislike his attacks on Black women and women in general.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 7:58 pm ¶

41. DreaD wrote:

    Wow, Nick Cannon’s got balls. Who knew?

    Regarding race:

    I’m so tired of people not realizing that an individual’s perpetuation of racism can often have little to do with that person’s conscious intentionality. Eminem’s words absolutely reflect racism, whether or not he meant them to. (no need to repeat – See cb3n’s post) Additionally, Em’s true colors should be obvious given his past lyrics which denigrate Black women. Not to mention that rap/hip hop is a traditionally AA artform. A white dude – especially one who has gained notoriety and acclaim within that artform – saying some craziness about a Black woman is of course racially loaded. It’s not only about race; perhaps not even primarily. But race, as usual, can’t be ignored.

    I think it’s always interesting when folks in the Black community are willing to defend Black women when the insult/abuse/harassment, etc. comes from White men. White men, specifically. Not White women. And not when that abuse/denigration is at the hands of Black men. Makes me think that the issue is about Black men defending their Black masculinity, and less about actually empowering/honoring Black women. Not to say that Nick falls in this category. But I am interested in seeing how other famous Black men react to this situation, if at all.

    In conclusion, Em is disgusting. I mean, he already was. But damn, Em. You’re a mess. SHE DON’T WANT YOU!

    Oh, and yeah, Nick Cannon’s alleged letter is slightly problematic…the pattern of feminizing Em in order to insult him = problem.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 8:54 pm ¶

42. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Re “Mariah Carey is as black as Barack Obama”: Not quite. He’s half black by ancestry. She’s less than half black by ancestry–maybe 1/4 or 3/8. They’re similar but not the same.

    http://www.nndb.com/people/115/000023046/

    One of the most commercially successful pop performers of the 1990s, vocalist Mariah Carey was the third child of black/Hispanic aeronautical engineer Alfred Carey and Irish opera singer/voice coach Patricia Hickey–a mix that made her the target of persistent racial prejudice throughout her childhood.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 9:14 pm ¶

43. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Self-identification is another matter. How does Carey identify herself overall: as a multiracial WoC or as a black woman? Either one is great, but they’re not the same thing.

    Since Cannon is playing the race card on Eminem, this issue is relevant. If Carey has identified herself as a black woman and lived as a black woman, more power to her. But if she hasn’t, maybe Cannon should ease up on associating her with Sojourner Truth, Rosa Parks, and Michelle Obama.

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 9:27 pm ¶

44. jaye wrote:

    Not the biggest fan of Eminem…but with his latest video making fun of Sarah Palin and Jessica Simpson, I don’t really see it as racist. Mariah Carey does set herself up as an easy target, but I also don’t think Eminem comes across as racist in any way, shape or form. Every time a white guy criticizes or mocks a WOC it has to be racist? …maybe I just really personally dislike her and see her more along the lines of Paris Hilton and Britney Spears rather than a Michelle Obama or Oprah, so it doesn’t really bother me. But does that make it ok to criticize them then, am I participating in sexist behavior because I don’t mind it?

    Posted 23 May 2009 at 11:41 pm ¶

45. Mike wrote:

    Im glad to see Nick Cannon stand up for his wife, despite the way he expressed it.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 3:41 am ¶

46. Subtlyshy wrote:

    @Rob Schmidt wrote:”vocalist Mariah Carey was the third child of black/Hispanic aeronautical engineer Alfred Carey”

    Sorry, but Hispanic IS NOT a “race.” You need to look up for its definition. Hispanic can be of any “race.” Her father is a Black Venezuelan. He’s all black but of a different NATIONALITY. Venezuela is not a “RACE.” Therefor Mariah IS half black not “maybe 1/4 or 3/8. ” You seem to have a SERIOUS issue accepting part of her identity?!

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 8:13 am ¶

47. chicagorose wrote:

    Looks like, smells like, walks like, talks like, a pissing contest between two testosterone driven male egos. Don’t care how Mariah identifies herself, would be ashamed to be attached to that mess by way of any sort of reply. It was a brush off your shoulders moment, and Cannon, whether induced by Mariah possibly having been hurt by the lyrics, his own splintered pride, or both, rose to the bait like a 6 year old. Eminem got what he wanted.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 8:51 am ¶

48. Carmen wrote:

    When I saw this story a couple weeks ago I was torn obviously because it was Nick Cannon and it reeked of publicity stunt especially after he identified Mariah as a black woman . After giving it a little thought I no longer questioned Nick’s motives he was simply defending his wife as any loving husband should. I give him much respect for that. As for the racial identity of Mariah Carey it’s never been an issue for me she’s always identified herself as a woman of color. In the early 90s the record company played up her whiteness to generate sales, but if you look at her collaborations on remixes for her pop songs she usually worked with Black and Latino producers and artists. She has never hid her love for hip-hop or denied that black portion of her multi-cultural identity. It doesn’t matter to me if Mariah calls herself black or multi-cultural or just plain Mimi, I think the bigger issue is Eminem’s disgusting and misogynist rants towards this woman who just didn’t want him. It’s like seriously get over it man.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 9:09 am ¶

49. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Thanks for the news flash, Subtlyshy, but I know Hispanic isn’t a race. Nevertheless, a term such as “Afro/Hispanic” implies a combination of ethnicities. If Carey’s father were black and nothing else, sources would identify him as a Venezuelan of African descent, not as “Afro/Hispanic” or something similar.

    Yes, this term could refer to someone who’s 100% black by ancestry. It also could refer to someone who’s half black and half “other” (white, Indian, etc.) by ancestry. Do you know what he is for a fact, or are you just guessing?

    If you know more than the sources I mentioned, please fill us in. Show us the evidence that Carey is half black by ancestry and has consistently identified herself as black. Then I’ll agree her situation is identical to Barack Obama’s.

    You seem to have a problem with the question I asked: “How does Carey identify herself overall: as a multiracial WoC or as a black woman?” That was a real question, not a rhetorical one. If you have an answer for it, I’m all ears.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 11:03 am ¶

50. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    P.S. As I think I said, it doesn’t matter to me if Mariah calls herself black or multicultural or just plain Mimi either. But I question the claim that her situation is the same as Obama’s. It should go without saying that multiracial is more than just a code-word for “half black.”

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 11:10 am ¶

51. browne wrote:

    Mariah is a woman of color and she’s never said anything to the contrary. I think it’s awesome that Nick is saying something. Something needed to be said about MM, this is a good reason to finally say it. Amazingly Nick Cannon seems to be the only black man in the rap game that has no problem going after MM, I guess the rest of the rappers want to work with MM, so maybe not so good of an idea to piss him off.

    Money will make you ignore some very horrible things, like to me Dr Dre and anyone associated with that jerk should be critiqued with no mercy. Dr Dre and everyone who he produces openly hate women, black women in particular and yeah they have a right to say what they want, but we have a right to say this is offensive. And we should exercise that right more often.

    I don’t like Mariah Carey’s music. I hate pop ballad singers. I probably don’t like Nick Cannon’s music either, I’ve never been “lucky” enough to hear it…but they seem like nice people.

    The more I think about this the more I think the real brains behind MM is Dr Dre. He produced that album and that’s who we should be going after that pig Dr Dre.

    Browne

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 1:35 pm ¶

52. cb3n wrote:

    Alright, just to be clear, I don’t think anyone in these comments is making the assertion that anytime a white male criticizes a woman of color, it is automatically racist.

    I think the point of the argument that Eminem’s misogynistic and immature lyrics also carry a heavy racial undertone because of the history of attitudes held by white men regarding women of color.

    It isn’t like he said “Mariah isn’t a very nice person, I think she treated me poorly and I am not very happy with her.” Clearly, if he had, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Instead he chose to call her a cunt and a whore, invoking not only the history of men treating women as sexual objects, but also the history of white people regarding people of color as sexually disposable. This happens whether he intends it or not, he doesn’t get to turn off his white privilege so he can be misogynistic without being racist. You can’t dump privilege and then pick it up later when you need it. Does this mean white men can’t “criticize or mock” women of color? No, but Eminem clearly could have chosen to criticize Mariah without using gendered hate speech, and because of the history of white men wielding misogyny against women of color in specific ways, the argument here is that this PARTICULAR type of gendered hate speech also becomes racist by default. Not that anytime there is conflict between white people and people of color, the white person is automatically being racist.

    It is extremely problematic when we declare the things which our history has made unequal to be equal. Colorblindness through ignoring the history of white men treating women of color as sexual playthings because of their race when looking at this incident is not helpful.

    Further, calling Eminem out on his racism and sexism in this situation doesn’t mean he ‘can’t’ say anything. Before anyone starts, no one here is denying the rights of white men to say whatever they want about women of color. We are simply denying their assumed privilege to say whatever they want and not be called out on it. I’m sure Eminem will continue his childish misogynistic, heterosexist and yes racist rants in the future, regardless of what we, Nick Cannon, or anyone else have to say about it.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 1:45 pm ¶

53. pinksghetti wrote:

    Eminem does have a history of racist and sexist language. I know he may be friends with black men but he ,IMO ,doesn’t like black women. I don’t know if this makes him wholly racist or half-racist. I read and heard the lyrics to his song from “when he was a teenager” (I only have his word on when this was recorded) he calls black women the n word and say we are all golddiggers and b’s. His excuse is that his 15 year old girlfriend dumped him for someone else. If his girlfriend were white would he have wrote such a hateful song describing all white women? In all honesty I don’t think so. His own mom was physically abusive and on drugs (his words) but yet he said such hateful words against black women because of a teen girl but nothing against all white women (which would be just as hateful and wrong). He hates women period and black women specifically, IMO.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 3:25 pm ¶

54. pololly wrote:

    Co sign cb3n. Apparently many other people are too busy victim blaming Mariah. Apparently she forgot to sign the black register at some point. Ridiculous.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 3:36 pm ¶

55. c.n.edaw wrote:

    @ Rob Schmidt A simple google search would solve the problem of which you speak. I’m not going to do the work for you, but I know (as I am sure other Mariah fans do ) that Mariah was on the cover of Essence Magazine (a black female publication) when she realeased the Emancipation of Mimi.

    In that article and others printed around that time , she calls her father a “black Venezuelan”. She also talks about the fact that she herself never denied being biracial, but that she was marketed as “a white girl who sings black” because the record company thought that was wise. She talks of going to church with her “black grandmother” in NYC which is where she says she picked up much of her vocal stylings. Now, if she has ever talked about her Hispanic or Latin heritage– separate from being black– I have yet to see it.

    It never bothered me one way or another whether Mariah self-identified as black, biracial or whatever. That’s her business. She could call herself whatever, but anyone of color and more discerning whites could tell from the get go she was not “100% Caucasoid”.

    I am from the South and from the time she sang “Vision of Love” on the Arsenio Hall Show– I recall coments about “she doesnt look ALL white to me” from blacks and whites at the time. I think the problem and where some may question Cannon’s intent is that some people perceive Mariah being black or “of color” when it is more advantageous to her career or garners sympathy or good p.r.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 5:11 pm ¶

56. jen* wrote:

    Rob – Mariah’s “pedigree” is not the point of this post. She has repeatedly talked about being mixed, mentioning that if she just says she’s black, she’s questioned, because she doesn’t look “just black”. Which I understand, myself, having been asked repeatedly, “but what are you?”

    I can’t find anything to speak to whether Alfred Roy [who died in '02] had further mixed ancestry or not, and I find it kinda crazy that the discussion has devolved into proving whether MC is “as black as Barack” or not.

    Interestingly or not, this convo has already happened here: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/the-blackness-of-mariah-carey/. The conclusion was that MC has referred to herself as black, but I’m sure the debate will continue.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    At first I wasn’t quite getting how the Eminem song was racist, but the more I read the comments here I see Nick’s point. When that kind of language is pointed at a black woman, there is more than just misogyny loaded in it.

    Additionally, the lyrics seemed really bizarre. So when Em said that he actually meant that he wished the Carey-Cannons all the best, I figured he must’ve been really high when he wrote it. And still high now.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 6:27 pm ¶

57. jaye wrote:

    Ok cb3n, thanks for answering my question. I wasn’t being rhetorical either.

    And just for the record, I am not ok with Eminem mocking her because she did or didn’t identify as black. I’m fine with it because she sets herself up as superficial and ridiculous and objectifies herself. I know that that is an issue with the wider culture as well, and we shouldn’t blame the victim…but at some point, people need to take responsibility for their behavior, especially when they have so many resources at their disposal. If we’re going to criticize men for their sexist behavior, then I think women should be criticized as well…with an understanding that the criticism would be different given that men are doing it to women, while women are doing it to themselves.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 8:18 pm ¶

58. c.n.edaw wrote:

    I can’t find anything to speak to whether Alfred Roy [who died in ‘02] had further mixed ancestry or not, and I find it kinda crazy that the discussion has devolved into proving whether MC is “as black as Barack” or not.

    Sad isnt it? I lost focus too, but for the record…I think Eminem is both sexist and racist to some extent. And in my opinion the worst kind of racist because he hides behind the notion that his appreciation /appropriation of a certain aspect of black culture makes him immune or incapable of being racist.

    Posted 24 May 2009 at 9:19 pm ¶

59. xripperx wrote:

    Firstly, I am a big eminem fan, so maybe you should know that.

    1. Eminem did definetly say some fucked up shit about Mariah, and women (conjoined twins, well I never!) in general.

    2. In terms of him “needing to let it go” or “having nothing else to talk about”, I think he’s fully aware that he’s digging up old bitterness that is probably irrelevant to anyone but the parties involved. It may be based in sincere resentment, but… that’s what he DOES. How many of you don’t have some ex from 5 years ago that you are still bitter about? Just because he airs it out (granted, very publicly, very vulgarly) doesn’t mean that he’s any more “stuck in 2004″ than anyone else.

    3. What the FUCK does Mariah Carey’s ethnicity have to do with any of this? As a black/white biracial person myself, I am supportive of self-identification: someone doesn’t need to look “black” in order to identify that way, or as a POC. But, I think it is hypocritical to decide that Eminem’s lyrics are more loaded, hurtful and insensitive because he is a white male speaking about a WOC WITHOUT acknowledging Mariah’s “passability”. She benefits from white privilege as well as “urban” acceptance and “authenticity”. I doubt that the majority of people who would read NC’s blog even realized that she is a WOC until they read the post. I bring this up because if we’re going to agree that his words carry heavier weight due to her ethnicity, than… I’m loosing my argument on this one. moving on.

    3. I don’t like to say that people play the race card, but he just played the race card. I can’t speak for anyone else, but if my lover defended me by repeatedly praising my blackness (Black Queen?? really NC?), I would not be entirely comfortable with them overdefining my biracial ass just to make a point.

    4. In response to Pinksghetti: I am unsure, but suspect that you are referring to the song “Foolish Pride” (I googled “eminem racist song”). I didn’t hear an n-word, but i only listened once. But, my point is, I don’t think anyone’s ever accused eminem of keeping his anger to himself. I’m not that surprised by this song, and think it’s one of the tamer of his mean-spirited work. He was young when he recorded it; people ARE allowed to change, mature, regret, after all. So he was mad at a black girl and freestyled a shitty song about it. That doesn’t mean he did, or does hate black women. Then again, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 12:22 am ¶

60. Charles J wrote:

    Thank you Nick Cannon (did I just say that

    Racist? Yes
    Sexist? Yes

    I am glad somebody finally called him on his stuff.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 12:22 am ¶

61. Jessica wrote:

    Eminem is running out of money so he wants attention so he can get it. Typical. Remember his first single (I don’t even know the name) that failed even though he talked about Sarah Palin and other people.

    I’m not a fan of Carey or Cannon but bigs up to Nick for putting Marshall Mathers on blast.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 12:55 am ¶

62. Pheagan wrote:

    Late to this but– I always hated Eminem. My cousin and I pinky-swore we’d never watch 8 mile. And remember when he was hot and MTV would put out the top ten rappers of all time and he’d always be, like, 2? That was some bullshit. And I think I just fell in love with Nick Cannon– calling himself a corny wack-rhymer from Nickelodeon? Lurve.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 1:49 am ¶

63. Pheagan wrote:

    Jare– “I’m fine with it because she sets herself up as superficial and ridiculous and objectifies herself.” And the women are doing it to themselves.

    WOW, man. I’m no fan of MC, but are you aware of the difference between wearing little pink dresses and calling someone a c— and a w—? What harm has she caused? No, REALLY, a woman makes a PG-funtimes sex icon of herself and she deserves to be called a c—? What do you find wrong about sex or high heels or Hello Kitty that she deserves to be basically verbally assaulted? OK, she’s superficial and ridiculous, I agree. But how is that bad? How does that cause harm? I mean, I think women should take responsibility for my behavior, but if I was Mariah, I’d be like, “Yeah, I sing annoying songs and wear ridiculous high heels and dresses two sizes two small and I’m superficial and ridiculous and I’m obviously having more fun than you are, the hell’s your problem with that? I don’t make a career out of tearing people down and not being able to take shit from Insult the fucking Wonder Dog, maybe you should smoke some weed and see a therapist.”

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 1:58 am ¶

64. AC wrote:

    I’m actually a pretty big fan of Em – content aside, the guy is good at what he does and I respect that (also I would happily dance to fart sounds over a Dr. Dre beat, but that’s another story). I used to hold the same opinion a lot of folks on here had, but since got over it. I’ve been listening to Encore since it leaked, here are my thoughts:

    1) Yeah, the guy has some serious problems with the ladies. Hell, compared to Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears’ voices in “Same Song and Dance,” Mariah got off easy. Sometimes I listen to his records and think “holy shit, worst case of mama issues ever.”

    2) But racist? I know all about those tracks from when he was 15, when Benzino pulled those out in that beef he got his ass kicked in. I’m sorry, but I’m going to judge people on what they’re doing/saying NOW, and not when they’re kids. How many people here never did/said stupid shit when they were 15 that they don’t agree with now? That remix cover is terrible, but even in the post it was pointed out it had nothing to do with Eminem. If anyone has recent examples of something as bad as that 20-year-old tape, please show me and I’ll take it back, but I don’t think he’s racist. And comparing him to Asher Roth is an insult.

    3) Nick seems to be saying that it’s only bad for Em to say bad things about women when they’re not white. WTF is that? Chopping up LiLo is OK but peeing on Mariah is bad? This is just weird to me. The people in here saying he “obviously” hates black women crack me up. “Cunt” is a racist word now? Again, compared to the stuff happening to the white women featured on Encore, “Bagpipes” is complimentary… in that horribly offensive Eminem way.

    4) “Bagpipes from Baghdad” is probably the most bizzarre, nonsensical song on the entire CD, and that’s including the one where he sings about his stepdad raping him and the one where Christopher Reeve comes back from the dead to challenge him to a breakdancing match. It’s him saying crazy shit over an equally crazy Dre beat, I’m honestly surprised anyone is taking it seriously.

    Don’t get me wrong, the dude is obviously severely troubled, and sometimes his lyrics even embarrass his fans, but turning misogyny into racism is just too big a stretch IMO.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 2:02 am ¶

65. Louise wrote:

    Nick Cannon is the ONLY man (of any race) to say anything about the endemic mysogeny in rap and that was provoked by the lyrical degradation of his wife.
    as for the racial element, i’m not surprised, but will it be represented by mainstream media, i’m guessing it won’t because , he is the golden boy. That white boy who schools black people on their own art form.
    this world is full of arse-hats, we have to evaluate and re-educate them one by one.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 8:37 am ¶

66. Lori wrote:

    First, big ups to Cannon for defending his wife. He should defend her against mean-spirited, malicious and unwarrented attacks. And vice-versa, if he were under attack, I’d fully expect her to leap (high-heeled shoes and all) to his defense.

    BUT, this whole bit about her being a “Black” woman and one of our “beautiful queens” strikes me as a mite disingenuous, particularly given how Mimi ushered in her career. My apologies to her fans, but she’s always struck me as one of those, “Ill be Black when it’s convenient types.”

    What irks me as well, is the manner in which Cannon chose to drag the whole Imus mess into his defense of Carey. What, pray-tell, makes
    Mim’s “womanhood” more worthy of protecting than that of the young women Imus publicly ridiculed? Sigh . . . I don’t even want to go there.

    The sad thing is, when I initially heard about this incident and reflected upon of the careers of both Mimi and Eminem, the first thing that came to my mind was the title of a collection of essays, edited by Greg Tate and that came out several years ago–”What White People Are Taking From Black Culture: Everything But The Burden.” For me, that pretty much wraps up the entire unsavory incident in a cracked and dusty nutshell.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 9:34 am ¶

67. jen* wrote:

    ok. I’m still surprised at how many people don’t know MC’s mixed, or that she’s identified as a POC since she came out. She’s talked about all this stuff – ad nauseum in some cases.

    There’s a song about it on almost every album, every time she’s interviewed it comes up – but I guess for some people, if she’s not walking around with a sign hanging from her neck that says “I’m black, y’all” she’s only black when it’s “convenient”. Way to jump on the Bernhard train, folks.

    Nobody’s denying that Mariah’s got light-skin privilege – she can definitely pass. Maybe that’s why she makes the effort to bring up her ancestry so often, cuz she runs into folks who forget/don’t know she’s black, and they say that crazy stuff people say when they don’t know you’re black. But she’s also intimated on several occasions [and albums] how her early packaging was not under her control. Remember how white she looked on the cover of Music Box? That was Columbia/Mottola influenced. Her brownness is much more visible from Butterfly on. Even though she’s not that brown.

    As successful as she is, as beautiful as she is, as much as she talks about where she comes from, she’s still gotta prove she’s black? Whatever.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 10:32 am ¶

68. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Being put on the cover of Essence because she’s part black isn’t the same as consistently identifying herself as black rather than multiracial, c.n.edaw.

    I did the additional Googling you suggested. In the following postings, you can presume “Venezuelan” is synonymous with “mestizo” (white/Indian), since that’s what most Venezuelans are.

    As I said, I don’t care how Carey identifies herself. If she thinks of herself as black, then Cannon’s calling her “BLACK” makes sense. If she thinks of herself as multiracial, then Cannon’s comments are a little over the top, in my opinion.

    But please don’t “correct” me when I haven’t said anything incorrect. Obama is 1/2 black by ancestry while Carey is something like 1/4 or 3/8 black by ancestry. Whether you care or not is up to you, but these are the facts.

    http://www.mariahdaily.com/infozone/magazines/2003/latina/index.shtml

    “My father was mostly African American, and his father was Venezuelan. But we don’t know if he was Venezuelan and white or Venezuelan and black.” Mariah says of the twisting branches of her father’s family tree. “We’re confused.”

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080624103056AAusg1M

    Her mother Patricia Carey is Irish-American and her father Alfred Roy Carey is of mixed heritage with a Black mother and a Venezuelan father.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 12:31 pm ¶

69. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    P.S. See Racialicious’s previous Carey/Cannon thread for more on the subject:

    http://www.racialicious.com/2008/05/02/mariah-carey-and-nick-cannon-married

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 12:33 pm ¶

70. Mr. Noface wrote:

    The Eminem and MC thing is not about race IMHO, but more to do with a past relationship that Eminem (according to rumors) claims to have had with Mariah, but Mariah denies. This song is not the first time that Eminem has mentioned her in one of his songs. He remains convinced (at least in his songs) that he and Mariah were involved with each other at some point and is disgruntled at Mariah for her not acknowledging his claims as true.

    The whole gist of his most recent song is that he is in crazy stalker mode in his attempts to get Mariah back. Is it misogynistic and disturbing? Yes, but what does one expect from Eminem, who has a clear track record of these types of sentiments. Is it racist? No, I feel that Cannon is reaching here, in his attempts to gain wider support for the defense of his wife’s honor.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 1:49 pm ¶

71. Nic wrote:

    Kudos to Nick Cannon. My respect for him has shot to the heavens. Yes! He should have defended his wife. Yes! He should refer to her as his black queen, if that’s how he sees her. Yes! Marshall Mathers is a weirdo with issues. I think that a lot of his issues have to do with being a white guy in a “black” field, as well as his mother issues, etc.

    However, I do find it nauseating that people want to decipher her blackness, as though that makes a difference. One drop rule still applies in my book. (call me country, old-fashioned, confused, whatever) But more importantly, self-identification is what counts most. I cannot tell another person who they are anymore than they can tell me. She has ALWAYS identified as black. I’ve never heard her deny her background or downplay it. Ever. And I’m not a huge fan of her work at all.

    Eminem was out of line with this one, and I’m thoroughly pleased that corny-azz Nick Cannon felt it was his duty to step up and step into that azz.

    Thank you NC! You’ve got a new fan over here.

    Posted 25 May 2009 at 3:04 pm ¶

72. jaye wrote:

    We get to criticize rappers when they demean women…but we can’t criticize a woman who is a role model to millions of young girls for also demeaning herself? I don’t think Eminem had such high-handed ideas when he wrote that song, but I just have little sympathy for a woman who is in such a position of power and influence who basically sells her own objectification, and has little girls mirror that behavior in their own lives. I don’t see how that is much different from Eminem calling her those names.

    I think rap music is misogynistic, but also think it is short-sighted to focus on rap without addressing the sexism within the wider culture. I think it’s a similar situation here but in reverse, I don’t condone Eminem’s name-calling of MC, I just think if you’re going to start condemning people for sexism, you’ve got to look at everyone involved, even the victim and her role in furthering sexism in our society. I think you need to tread lightly with the woman, because she IS also the victim, and so it’s a more difficult situation to address. But that doesn’t absolve her of her responsibility, and that doesn’t make her immune from criticism. I realize it’s a little off-focus from the intent of Eminem’s song, but I just basically don’t see why Eminem gets criticized for demeaning women, but she doesn’t. And you know what…I might be wrong about this…maybe I am blaming the victim without realizing it. But I’m sick of seeing a steady blur of half-naked women parade across the TV screen – and I’m not talking about anonymous video ho’s, I’m talking about the women with money and power and status…these women are not made accountable for their behavior, even as we go after male rappers for the same kind of stuff. That’s my view on it, and I might be wrong. But I think the more power you have, the more responsibility you have, man or woman.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 1:09 am ¶

73. AC wrote:

    @jen* – I’ll admit it. I didn’t know Mariah was multi-racial until a few years ago. You know why?

    Because I never cared about her enough to read an interview or buy an album. She’s got a great voice, sure, but not my style. The DJs in my area would talk about how she was mopping floors before she debuted, but never mentioned her race either way. I agree with someone that it’s not like she should be forced to wear a big B on her chest or something, but some people just don’t notice/notice wrong (I’m white as white can be and used to get called “chink” by mulleted classmates). I honestly know pretty much nothing about Mariah other than she can sing really well, she was in a crappy movie called “Glitter,” and her episode of MTV Cribs was weird.

    I guess it’s kind of like how I would bet a good majority of the people complaining about “Bagpipes from Baghdad” have never heard the actual album (and probably a lot of folks not even the track in question). I was listening to it again today, and although the c-word does get dropped, the parts about them (there are whole verses of random crap in there) sound a lot more like a trolling of Nick Cannon than a direct attack on Mariah… and he took the bait.

    Let’s hope Nick can come up with a response track at least as entertaining as the Christina Alguilera ones.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 2:24 am ¶

74. Pheagan wrote:

    Jaye

    “we can’t criticize a woman who is a role model to millions of young girls for also demeaning herself?”

    I ask you, man, what is your issue with sex? Is sex bad? Is being sexual bad? Is wearing tight dresses and high heels morally wrong? Is having consensual sex and a self-made sexual identity that falls outside the virgin identity harmful?

    I’ll be straight up about how I think as a feminist. I think men and women are equal. I think we are sexual beings and consensual sex isn’t wrong. I think it is natural to objectify the gender you are attracted to. I think a lot of people demonize objectification– all objectification is bad. I think you’re doing this and this is the basis of your criticism. But think about it– think of a girl you’re attracted to who you wouldn’t criticize, who doesn’t “demean herself”. Do you honestly deny that in your attraction to her, there is no objectification going on? That is what attraction IS. When I say I think a man is handsome or cute or hot, I am objectifying him. And that is natural, and that is NOT wrong.

    The problem is when objectification prohibits acknowledging that person isn’t JUST an object, isn’t JUST an attractive person. That’s what bothers most feminists. We like being called pretty. We don’t like it when you say we’re awfully smart for such pretty girls.

    Furthermore, what we or I personally don’t like about what men of the musical persuasion often do, and it ain’t just hip hop artists, is what I described above, but more often, straight up negative objectification. Calling a girl a bitch, a whore, a cunt, a slut. Punishing her for dressing up LIKE THEY WANTED HER TO DRESS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Because it’s crazy. It makes you feel crazy. You grow up, as a girl, and people start calling you pretty or catcalling at you when you’re eleven or twelve, but then your sex drive kicks in, and that is what my problem with your comments is all about, because WE HAVE SEX DRIVES TOO. And we want boys to like us, to want to kiss us, and God forbid, but we want them to have sex with us too. And when we dress like good girls, unless we have natural beauty, boys don’t pay attention to us. And when we wear short skirts, they call us sluts. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. It makes us feel like we’re crazy, like we can’t do anything right.

    Or, say, you’re a musician. And you know sex sells. And if you’re Mariah Carey, you’re married to your whatever that guy was– manager? Dude who ran her label? That guy. And he was very controlling of her image. Made her dress all good girl. When she started dressing provocatively was when she divorced him. It is very clear to me, and she made it very clear, that her new image, her more sexy image, was about gaining freedom from the image a man was trying to put her into. Because you know what? As a guy maybe you don’t understand, but it can be fun to wear makeup and nice clothes and yes, be provocative. And that is what she’s done.

    You know what she hasn’t done? She hasn’t dehumanized men. She hasn’t called out a guy in her song for being too sexy, for being a slut. She hasn’t talked about sex in a way that degraded the man while elevating herself. In fact, it would be well nigh fucking impossible for her to do so, because that language and that paradigm doesn’t exist for women to exploit. It’s not even possible for her to do what people have a problem with some men in the musical field for doing.

    What she has done is cultivate a sexy image. And it’s a particular kind of sexy image. It’s very playful. It’s not at all intimidating or femme fatale or man-eating. I don’t believe I have ever heard a curse word in her songs, but I’m not a fan, so I wouldn’t know. It is NOT HARMFUL.

    What men do, is not just feature women in their videos in skimpy clothes, but show them crawling on the floor, show them as animals (in “I like the way you move” women in bikinis were walking around in a safari setting– that they were meant to be animals was clear), call them whores, sluts, bitches– and it’s not like they wouldn’t fuck those women, but they remain impervious to similar appellations, similar degradations. Again, I’m NOT SAYING objectification in itself is degrading. But it can be. When it is hateful– not playful.

    What Mariah is doing and what those others, including Eminem, who after all sang a song about murdering his wife in front of his daughter and stuffing her into his trunk– it is not the same. Because she doesn’t harm anyone, not even herself. If you want to say she’s degrading herself, that’s on you. It’s clear that’s not what she thinks, and it’s not what I think. I think she’s awfully silly, but that’s because of that weak pitch she threw at that baseball game.

    In conclusion, when you say “these women are not made accountable for their behavior, even as we go after male rappers for the same kind of stuff”, you are wrong because it’s not “the same kind of stuff” at all. It may involve objectification but it is done in two veeeeery different ways.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 2:51 am ¶

75. Brandon wrote:

    @ Louise: NC is not the only man in the business to say something about misogyny in rap. Not even close.

    And here’s a question I haven’t seen raised. There’s plenty of talk here about Carey’s racial identity: how we see it, and how she sees it.

    If we’re looking at whether Em’s song is racist, though, shouldn’t we address how HE sees her racial identity. I know that this moves into potentially dangerous territory: why should he get a voice in defining who she is? But… is it anti-black racism if he doesn’t identify her as black? (And does it matter?)

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 9:50 am ¶

76. Kavita wrote:

    Oh, Rob Schmidt. Where to start? First, what if Mariah identifies as Black AND as multiracial? It is frustrating that you seem to be demanding that she chose one or the other, when in fact it is possible to have multiple, overlapping identities. Secondly, I have consistently heard Mariah’s father referred to as a Black Venezuelan. The fact that he may have white people in his family tree doesn’t mean he is not a Black man. You seem to be defining blackness in terms of the “purity” of the bloodstream. It’s a social construct. Fact is, there are many Black people in the diaspora with just as much African blood in them as Mariah. I think the reason her identity is up for debate has much more to do with social factors than her actual blood qualifications. That said, Fiqah, I hear you when you said “BUT there are ways to publicly defend the person you love in a way that properly and sensitively addresses her experiences of sexism/racism as a WoC WITHOUT invoking the experiences of other WoC who endure a very different, very specific brand of racism.”

    And @ embarcader0113 (#20), I feel you. I’m with it too.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 10:48 am ¶

77. 9jah wrote:

    @ Cb3n:

    “I think the point of the argument that Eminem’s misogynistic and immature lyrics also carry a heavy racial undertone because of the history of attitudes held by white men regarding women of color.”

    Is your argument that there is some ambiguity as to the motives when the criticsm is from a white person against a black target? This I would understand. Or that the action is a harsh reminder of the oppression black woman would have experienced given this same dynamic centuries ago. Maybe, it gives misogynist insults a little more bite coming from a white man. This I would understand.

    However, I agree with Arabi at #32 that it is very dangerous to assume per se racism just becasue white and black players happen to be involved. We can’t without more just assume Eminem harbors the same sentiments against WoC that the next white person harbors – in fact, his association to the black community would suggest this is less likely. Mariah has been a steady target in his career and his general misogyny is well documented.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 12:46 pm ¶

78. PPR_Scribe wrote:

    Or is Cannon being just as cheap, making this about race when it’s simply about grudges & personal relationships, and maybe a smidge of male posturing?

    This, to me, reveals the most interesting aspect of this whole thing–which fits in nicely with the previous discussions here about “authenticity” and “cultural appropriation.”

    I believe this is definitely a matter of posturing, and perhaps an attempt at repackaging on the part of Cannon. Eminem came to prominence largely on the backing of a legitimate *Black* rap icon. But to back it up, he definitely had some pre-existing, non-manufactured street credibility (unlike, say, Vanilla Ice) as well as some actual skills. He was packaged in a certain hardcore way, but then the way of mainstream rap seemed to go a different way: a lot more commercial, more silly and goofy, more dance-ready, more “soft.”

    Meanwhile Nick Cannon seamed to be packaged as a kid friendly, more Kidz-Bop-type, more “all-American” young Black male character. His Blackness had to be downplayed and softened a bit for mainstream consumption. But of course, that pakaging can only last so long , too, as younger males (Black of otherwise) are always there to take the stage and Tiger Beat magazine covers.

    So really, IMO, both of these guys are posturing to be “tougher”–Eminem to restart a more gangster and confrontational (and so-called “authentic”) rap persona, and Nick Cannon to fit into more adult roles, perhaps, or to at least be seen as something other than “Mr. Carey.”

    Whatever the specifics, each of these men knows that the “beef” likely will only serve to help each of their careers. Mariah Carey and how Black or queenly she is or isn’t is the least of either of their concerns, IMO.

    It’s nice to evaluate the sexism and racism and honor-defending aspects of this exchange. But in the end I doubt that it is really about any of that between these two men.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 1:21 pm ¶

79. Subtlyshy wrote:

    @Rob Schmidt wrote:
    “I did the additional Googling you suggested. In the following postings, you can presume “Venezuelan” is synonymous with “mestizo” (white/Indian), since that’s what most Venezuelans are.”

    LOL, you’re funny, and you have some serious issues with blackness. You’re so busy with the percentage of this, percentage of that — a lot of effort to dilute her blackness as much as possible. She isn’t a recipe. And your comment about what Venezuelans are mostly made of makes no sense unless you know every Venezuelans’ DNA ancestry in Venezuela.

    Once again, Venezuelan is a nationality not a race. Don’t try to make it out to be a race – that’s RACIST thinking. I’ll try not to presume that you’re a racist. Let me give you an example, American is not a race. Would it make sense if I said American is synonymous with mestizo? or American is synonymous with white? I’m hoping you’re not one of those whose image of an “all American boy” is blonde, and blue eyes. *smile*

    Oh, BTW…Indian is a person from India. I doubt you meant people from India in YOUR description on what a Venezuelano is made up mostly of…lol.

    Just so you know…I’m a Latina.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 3:15 pm ¶

80. David Cone wrote:

    I don’t care if Nick Cannon didn’t express himself all that well. Marshall Mathers talking about someone’s wife like that without provocation?

    If Nick wanted to be a REAL husband, though, you don’t call Mathers out in the media. You catch his sawed-off little butt alone without all those big old black men he pals around with and tell him either take back what he said or get knocked the eff out.

    Forget the “black queen” stuff. If Nick Cannon married a white girl and Mathers went there, Nick’s supposed to knock that punk’s block off.

    And, yes, Eminem is absolutely a punk. If he’s got something negative to say about black America, whatever that is, then he can get out of hip-hop. Screw him.

    Posted 26 May 2009 at 7:58 pm ¶

81. jaye wrote:

    Pheagan: I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. One thing I know you’re wrong on tho: I’m not a guy, I’m a woman.

    The other thing I’m really going to disagree with you on, but it’s just my opinion, is that her image is not harmful. I think it is, and that is why I come down on her so strong. But you and I are also coming from two different sides of the spectrum in regards to the power of sexualized imagery…I have no problem with short skirts or high heels (ok, except for the osteoarthritis and chronic knee pain) or cultivating a sexy image…I’m fine with all those things, I just think there’s a difference between the way MC does is and say…Madonna. Between Britney and Pink (who did the song ’stupid girls’ and then got criticized for wearing make-up and revealing clothing in her next video – as though not objectifying yourself means you aren’t a sexual being). I think one is harmful and one isn’t…what exactly is the difference?
    That is a really complicated issue and I don’t think it’s going to get resolved here.

    Ultimately, I do believe it’s harmful…you call it ‘playful not hateful’. I think that kind of naive ‘playful’ objectification is at times more dangerous than the obvious ones in rap videos. You make a distinction between the objectification in rap videos and in MC’s videos, by saying that therefore objectification CAN be negative at times…I think you and I disagree on where that line is, and we also disagree on what kind of message MC is sending out.

    Posted 27 May 2009 at 3:11 am ¶

82. Hibbs4Prez wrote:

    Mr Cannon has every right to be accept if someone takes shots at his wife. But his bringing race to the discussion is ridiculous. Especially when Ms Mariah for years wasn’t exactly parading around as Ms Black America if you get my drift. Also I have little respect for black guys who resort to the “black queens” nonsense. Its comes across as overcompensation. Besides a woman isn’t even a queen in theory just because she’s black. Sure a husband can view his wife as a queen I suppose, but really black men don’t need to defend black women by referring to them as queens. Its silly. And it suggests a black nationalist mentality which I am not comfortable with personally.

    Posted 27 May 2009 at 3:12 pm ¶

83. Pheagan wrote:

    Jaye– OK, it’s funny how finding out a commenter’s gender colors the posts in a completely different way.

    Maybe we won’t resolve it here, but I do want to know more about your stance– you say some interesting things, like “playful” imagery being harmful because it’s presented as playful, and I would like to know more about that, and about what type of harm exactly you think she’s causing with her imagery.

    And I mean, I don’t wear high heels either, I kind of hate them, but I feel like I can’t argue they’re objectively a bad thing since so many women will defend their right to wear them.

    But I do think that when you say women like Mariah ought to be held accountable, and that her form of objectification is the same thing as men objectifying women in videos, and the implication that Eminem’s lyrics are deserved in any way– I still have to vehemenently disagree. First, it’s different to objectify yourself than to accomodate to the objectification standards set out explicitly in a video made by men and starring men. And I’m sure you could argue that by objectifying herself MC is still accomadating male standards– but as I said in my last post, I think her sexy image is to her, and meant to display to her public, freedom from the good-girl persona set in place by her former husband.

    I also disagree with the statement that women aren’t held accountable for objectifying themselves. After a friend of mine was attacked walking home from work one night, she was told by police not to wear skirts in the summer– it makes her a target, even though the skirt reached to her ankles. I have another friend who never dresses nicely, even if she wants too– always a hoodie, even in the hottest weather, doesn’t wear her hair down, doesn’t wear bright colors– because she’s been attacked a few times and sees any sort of objectifying thing as making her a target. Making her a target. That’s a phrase from your post. What I think you probably mean is feminists don’t hold women accountable when they make themselves sex objects. I think the reason for that is the logical conclusion of that is my friend who does everything possible to keep herself from being a target. I would argue that men, police, many men in the music industry, and anyone throwing around words like slut and whore, hold women accountable for women making themselves sex objects. I mean, I don’t like Paris Hilton in particular, but it’s pretty clear to me that the reason people hate her so much is because of the sexual imagery and life she’s made for herself. As many people chide her for throwing around money in these times, plenty have done it before, and during it, and many are doing it now. The only difference is all the pink and making out and posing and sex tapes. So I am completely allergic to women being “held accountable” for their sex lives. And while I would take a man to task for demeaning sexual objectification of women, I actually don’t have a problem with men enjoying women, objectifying her in a non-objectionable way, even being a player, as long a he’s upfront about it.

    So, you know, we might not resolve it, but we can discuss it.

    Posted 27 May 2009 at 5:58 pm ¶

84. jaye wrote:

    Ok Pheagan, I think we’re going to have to end it here.

    But I just wanted to make one thing clear – when I said it made MC “a target”, I in NO WAY insinuated anything about physical violence, and I’m sorry if it came off that way. If a woman is the victim of violence, it is NEVER her fault, and the way women dress is NEVER the cause of violence. So I just wanted to make it clear that’s not what I intended with the word “target”. By target, I meant more to be the target of derision…but not just because you’re expressing your sexuality. For me, sexual autonomy and independence is a given…and I go from there. I want women to express themselves with RESPECT – meaning they are acting in a way that is true to themselves, whatever that means for them. But I don’t see women like MC and Paris acting that way, they seem miserable and a bit deranged to me.

    I think you and I disagree that MC is her being who she truly is…you see it as being symbolic of her freedom and independence, to choose to express her sexuality in her own way. I don’t feel that is “who she is”, I think she comes across as foolish – and really, I don’t think she’s a fool, she just presents herself that way. While I DO think the way Madonna and Pink present themselves as sexual, is a reflection of who they are authentically. Once again, I think figuring out the difference is beyond this post. I would love to talk to you about what I mean by “playful” imagery and where the line is for objectification…but I think this post is kind of over. I’m guessing that we are a lot closer on what we believe than it came off in these comments, but we’re just coming at it from different directions.

    Posted 28 May 2009 at 9:06 pm ¶

85. Huh? wrote:

    Nick Cannon is my new hero. Just read the lyrics- wtf is eminem talking about??? I just don’t understand why anyone cares about him (Eminem) anymore – it’s like, yeah you are *so* original hating on women and homosexuals- as if people haven’t been hating on women and homosexuals since the beginning of time.

    Posted 21 Jul 2009 at 9:35 pm ¶