Geishas and Whores

by Guest Contributor (and regular commenter) Atlasien

Geisha cultists seriously disturb me.

Surprisingly enough, many of them are women. They love the geisha mystique, the tinge of nostalgia for a bygone era, the careful artifice, the idea of humans as living artwork.

I’ve enraged a few of them simply by dropping the “geishas are prostitutes” bomb. They tell me they know about Japan more than I do. I’m a lowly mixed-race Japanese-American. I don’t even speak Japanese. I’m pluralizing “geisha” wrong. I obviously have no respect for the traditions of my ancestors. Geisha = serious business. Ha!

Geisha are not very relevant in modern-day Japan. They’re a fossilized archetype, almost like ninja. If you asked a group of Japanese people the burning question, “are geisha prostitutes?” depending on region and generation, you would probably get a variety of answers: “that’s an insult, of course not!” “Well, it depends on your definition.” “Yes, they’re high-end prostitutes.” “I don’t really know.”

But a lot of people, especially white people, are invested in defending geisha, in putting them on a pedestal. And when they do that, it does harm to Japanese-American women and to all Asian-American women. Appropriation is almost too mild of a word. It’s not just theft, it’s domination. Imagine a young girl, on the verge of understanding herself as a sexual being, looking deeply in the mirror… and seeing her mirror image controlled by puppet masters.

I’ll try to explain further. The geisha figure is one end of a continuum of stereotypes of Asian woman sexuality. The continuum is inanimate. Other races have different sexual stereotypes: for example, “animalistic”. But Asian women are neither animal nor human. They’re inanimate things. They’re so passive that they barely even move. On the high end, they’re beautiful clockwork dolls, to be petted and treasured and collected and shown off. The most expensive ones can’t even be bought for money; instead, you have to win them through your superior knowledge of authentic Asian culture. On the low end, they’re doormats, sperm receptacles, happy ending massage girls, completely impersonal and interchangeable, existing for nothing more than a moment’s pleasure. Common sex jokes about Asian women concentrate on the idea that they have “stripped down” bodies — neat, efficient, even machine-like — and facial features that lack human expression.

It’s a fairly simple stereotype, and all this obfuscation about geisha unnecessarily complicates it.

I’ve also been accused of being prudish and anti-sexual when I say things like this, so I’ll try and explain where I’m coming from. I used to say I was a sex-positive feminist when I was young. I don’t call myself that anymore. The plain, pragmatic variety of feminism I was raised in always gave me clear benefits and made me a stronger person, but this new extra label I’d discovered never became as relevant in my day-to-day life. One reason was that I actually worked in the sex industry for a while, in a strip club, and thought it was a horrible environment. I still don’t believe in a unique, essential stigma attached to sex work, so I’ll say that while it was a horrible environment, there are plenty of others just as bad. I did notice there was very little barrier between work identity and life identity for most of the people in the industry. But then, that’s true of plenty of other jobs: bartenders, politicians and police, to name a few. I saw a lot of the strippers get sucked into insanely negative patterns of behavior, getting high on coke all the time, subsidizing parasitical boyfriends and spending what was left of their money on $100 purses the size of postage stamps. Others were instead sending all their money back to Eastern Europe and seemed deeply depressed about having to work there.

I was a cocktail waitress. My outfit, and the female bartenders’ outfit, was skimpy; it involved an ass-cape. We were all selling sex in some form.

While I’m not “sex-positive” I don’t reject all the theories, and I have sympathy with a lot of sex worker activism, so I do want to say this: lumping in all sex workers is bad, and so is splitting them all apart. It’s elitist and deeply nasty to say “I’m the nice clean expensive sex worker, not like those low-class dirty whores.” All human beings should be valued the same. But different people in the industry happen to have different experiences. I wouldn’t call myself a whore for working there, or claim that I know what it’s like for all sex workers, although I suppose I was on a kind of whore continuum.

One thing I noticed that while the environment at the strip club was pretty racist, it wasn’t any more racist than the racial hierarchies at the regular restaurants I was used to working in. And this brought up a question I still wonder about today. Do the actions of Asian-American women have any impact at all on our sexual stereotypes? Does it matter if we look or act whorish or geisha-ish or virginal or nonsexual or work in the sex industry or refuse to work in it? Or will the predominantly white media continue to import and circulate our images, reading into them whatever gets them off, regardless of our reality and our choices? The thought of such powerlessness is really sad.

Many white men (and to a lesser extent, other non-Asian men) have an obvious, direct sexual interest in controlling these images. In the case of Asian-American men it’s more complicated and involves interplay between assimilation and opposition stances, between race and sex, between power and powerlessness. For example, what’s the effect on the psyche of an Asian-American man consuming Asian woman fetish pornography designated for a white male audience? For any Asian-American, male or female, gay or straight, developing a healthy sexual self-image can be a horribly difficult battle.

But the weirdest piece has got to be white women. You would think they wouldn’t have a stake in this dynamic, but the most ardent geisha-worshippers seem to be white women who identify with geisha. They want to remake themselves into treasured objects. They want to steal a sexuality that’s already stolen. The project of arcane knowledge mastery, of transformation, of “becoming”, gives them sexual excitement.

If you think I’m making this stuff up, go to a website called immortalgeisha.com then click on “About Us” then “The Face Behind.”

These women need to realize what they’re doing and who they’re hurting. They’re just as complicit as the anonymous man who shouts a pornographic joke at a young, vulnerable Asian-American girl. But we’re not real to them. Our images provide so much more satisfaction than our reality.

To make a long story short, call me a cranky prude and an inauthentic Japanese all you want, I don’t give a damn about geisha. If you’re sexually obsessed with them, hey, whatever, I’m not going to tell you how to run your sex life. But don’t pretend it’s some kind of noble homage. It gets you off. And you need to distinguish fantasy from reality. If shoes happen to be your thing, do you go to Payless, tell the clerks how to position the shoes and then start masturbating in front of them?

Own up to your fetish and at least try to be responsible about it.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Geishas and Whores « Raven’s Eye on 13 May 2009 at 11:11 pm

    [...] crossposted from Racialicious (Read the Comments too!) [...]

  2. links for 2009-05-15 « Embololalia on 15 May 2009 at 2:06 pm

    [...] Geishas and Whores at Racialicious – the intersection of race and pop culture To make a long story short, call me a cranky prude and an inauthentic Japanese all you want, I don’t give a damn about geisha. If you’re sexually obsessed with them, hey, whatever, I’m not going to tell you how to run your sex life. But don’t pretend it’s some kind of noble homage. It gets you off. And you need to distinguish fantasy from reality. If shoes happen to be your thing, do you go to Payless, tell the clerks how to position the shoes and then start masturbating in front of them? [...]

  3. digg » Blog Archive » Geishas and Whores on 27 May 2009 at 1:54 am

    [...]  This post first appeared on Racialicious. [...]

Comments

  1. ms four wrote:

    I’m totally with you on this… except, really?
    “But a lot of people, especially white people, are invested in defending geisha, in putting them on a pedestal.”

    There are a lot of white women into geishas? Obviously the founder of that site is, but is this a pretty prominent subculture somewhere?

    But, yeah, I can see how this would be pretty annoying.

  2. MelMel wrote:

    I’ve been compared to a Geisha many times.

    At all points of my awareness of the racist and sexist implications, I’ve had a visceral sense of horror at this “compliment,” even when I laughed and said “thank you.” Even when I compared MYSELF to a Geisha, jokingly. (I don’t anymore.) The only points of comparison I can draw between myself and Geishas is that I can tell a great sex joke and that I like to drink.

    Geisha obsession is creepy. Period. Whenever a man or woman is flirting with me and starts bringing up tea ceremonies I start to inch away.

  3. Restructure! wrote:

    Daayuum good post. I love atlasien’s comments and the other atlasien Racialicious post too.

    atlasien nailed it. I have nothing else to add.

  4. atlasien wrote:

    @ms four: I don’t know if I’d say “prominent”… but yes, Immortal Geisha has a posse.

    @MelMel: the phrase “visceral horror” encapsulates the feeling nicely.

    I just wanted to add that between the time I wrote this piece and it was published here, I happened to run across this article: In Kyoto, a Call to Not Trample the Geisha. It’s a great example of the strong sense of ownership that non-Japanese feel toward geisha.

    “They have lived through the ages and remain to this day,” said Ponkka. “They are unlike anything else you see in Japan. Most of Japanese culture today is just a mixture of things from overseas.”

    That’s pretty insulting; however, there’s a limit to the negative effects on Japanese nationals. They don’t have a strong need for tourists to give them cultural validation. But attitudes like that can be truly devastating to the vulnerable Japanese-Americans who grow up surrounded by white culture…

    On a lighter note, if anyone truly has a burning desire to know what an “ass-cape” is, read this review.

  5. method wrote:

    “Geisha are not very relevant in modern-day Japan. They’re a fossilized archetype, almost like ninja.”

    Hasn’t the geisha culture just been turned into the hostess culture in Japan? Also, isn’t part of the fascination with geisha that (ostensibly like the hostesses) they don’t have sex but provide formal companionship? There are nuances in Japanese cultural perspective on sex and role-playing that just don’t translate to the American (white American, etc.) context. I think that your critique has less to do with the specifically Japanese cultural constructs than what westerners make out of them, especially in relation to Asian-Americans.

  6. Kavita wrote:

    “Our images provide so much more satisfaction than our reality.”

    Deep, sis.

  7. Fiqah wrote:

    @MelMel:

    Whenever a man or woman is flirting with me and starts bringing up tea ceremonies I start to inch away.

    SIGH. Ah, yes. The relegation of your sexuality to someone’s jacked-up, exotic erotic fantasy. The “You are a ______; therefore, I want you to be ________” is so maddening, but the worst feature of it all (for me, anway, enduring the unprovoked advances of non-Black men who want to “taste some chocolate” – BARF) is the underlying assumption of reciprocated sexual desire and sexual availability. When someone is projecting this kind of desire onto you, any contradictory reality becomes irrelevant.

  8. Anonymous wrote:

    Maybe it’s because I’ve been an anime fan for most of my life, and my south suburban Atlanta town (Morrow, in Clayton County, for those who know :D ) has always had large Asian communities (Vietnamese, Korean, Laotian, etc.), members of whom I used to go to school with, but I never got the exotification of Asian women, or at least, of Japanese women beyond “lol, schoolgirls are cute, funny, and are fanatical about celebrities :) ” At least the schoolgirl stereotype *might* (might!) have been based on reality (back in the ’90s, at least) — the other stuff you have mentioned is poisonous crap, the most recent version of which that has been around since the ’80s. I remember watching Eddie Murphy’s “Raw,” and he remarking how a Japanese wife of a friend of his (I think) was so nice, pleasant, and submissive, compared to American women (black women in particular?) — remarked how THAT relationship had some “pussy control.”

    And this reminds me of that Memoirs of a Geisha movie; that MadTV skit where the resident Asian actor (at the time?) on that show mocked it; and how Chinese people were offended that their Hong Kong and mainland actresses were in a movie about Japanese characters, and the Japanese were just as pissed off that there were Chinese women playing Japanese characters in a movie about THEIR culture. Meanwhile, what little of the movie and the book it was based on that I’ve heard of about just sounds like American warping of Far East Asian culture into unrecognizable bunk, as USUAL. I mean, ooh, pretty, dolled-up women who serve you tea! MAGICAL! And they might even have sex with you, too! Oh, WOW! Starring … Ziyi Zhang as the protagonist, also Michelle Yeoh and Gong Li as co-stars, ’cause you know all Asians look the same! The Chinese aren’t any different from the Japanese at all, not even their looks!

    Sad.

  9. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    I wonder if these white women are victims of “white people have no culture” mindset so they decide to steal another culture and try to claim it as their own.

  10. Alston wrote:

    Do the actions of Asian-American women have any impact at all on our sexual stereotypes?

    Probably no more than other outgroups, like black men. It makes me think of the “responsibility” that Asian women have to “correct the stereotype”.

    Does it matter if we look or act whorish or geisha-ish or virginal or nonsexual or work in the sex industry or refuse to work in it?

    Maybe I’m just in a mood today, but by and large, I fucking doubt it.

    Or will the predominantly white media continue to import and circulate our images, reading into them whatever gets them off, regardless of our reality and our choices?

    Absofuckinglutely. That’s just what they do.

    It’s been said by whites and non-whites alike that whites have no culture. It’s easy to believe when you see white-controlled media and white people vampirizing and fetishizing non-white people, institutions and so on.

    The thought of such powerlessness is really sad.

    Yet I don’t think that Asian women are that powerless. I believe that they and the rest of us can recognize these things and challenge them, just like the way we call bullshit on other types of images.

  11. cocolamala wrote:

    in elementary school, a friend wanted to dress up as a geisha for halloween. i asked why she wanted to be a prostitute and she looked at me, in shock and surprise, and protested. she was just as confused by my understanding of geishas as I was by her desire to be one (and that her parents would find it acceptable for her to dress up as a geisha).

  12. Leila wrote:

    Great post.

    Whenever I tell non-Japanese I used to live in Japan, I am confronted with people who claim that they are in possession of a “centuries-old” kabuki mask/samurai sword, try to correct my pronunciation of Japanese words, or seem to think that they have some inexplicable, spiritual connection to whatever drug-induced magical fantasy-world vision of Japan they hold.
    And they’ve somehow convinced themselves that relegating an entire country into their personal little toybox is “cultural respect.”

  13. quakerchica wrote:

    I wouldn’t say geisha (geiko if you want to be technical) are not irrelevant in modern Japan, at least not in Kyoto. The number of maiko (geisha’s in training) is actually growing. As an African-American female, I often tell people that geisha and black women have the same problem: people think they know us, but they don’t know jack s***. Geisha’s are not these weak fragile sex toys that people have made them out to be. I was fortunate enough to have known a geisha and I can tell you they are as independent, intelligent, and strong as any of the women we know at law firms, hospitals, and businesses in our country. When I tell guys this they alway laugh and talk about them in the manner expected of gaijin (foreigners) and how they are just high class emotionless prostitutes (by the way, geisha do not sleep with any of their clients, in fact the only way you can even meet them is if you are introduced through someone or apply for an application to meet with them). When I tell them the truth about geisha, I can’t even begin to tell you how piss they become. I ought to write book completely destroying the myth of geisha and sexual stereotyping of women but someone already beat me to it.

  14. jvansteppes wrote:

    I’m looking at you Beth Ditto.

  15. Fiqah wrote:

    SIGH. And this:

    But the weirdest piece has got to be white women. You would think they wouldn’t have a stake in this dynamic, but the most ardent geisha-worshippers seem to be white women who identify with geisha. They want to remake themselves into treasured objects. They want to steal a sexuality that’s already stolen. The project of arcane knowledge mastery, of transformation, of “becoming”, gives them sexual excitement.

    Was just mulling over impediments to establishing meaningful, progressive and engaging connections between women of color and White women.

    Will add this to the list.

  16. theboxman wrote:

    For those of you who may have access via a library or university subscription, Anne Allison has an essay from some years back on white women and the Euro-American desire for Arthur Golden’s Memoirs of Geisha:

    http://depts.washington.edu/jjs/allison.htm

  17. F. wrote:

    What did you guys think of “Memoirs of a Geisha” (both the book and the film)?

    One facet of the story I’d like to point out was that Sayuri, the titular Japanese geisha, is described as having “blue-grey eyes”– which I remember a commentator (heck, might have even been from Racialicious) remarking that they made Sayuri more “relatable” and thus more marketable to white people. Reading about atlasien’s discussion of white women geisha-worshippers totally reminded me of that.

  18. Persia wrote:

    F. I started Memoirs and got, I think, two chapters in before I decided– cultural accuracy aside– I hated everyone in the book and didn’t want to read any more. Never watched the movie.

    WTH is the ‘proper’ pluralization for ‘geisha’ anyway? Or is this one of those ‘we have to follow Japanese grammatical rules, even though we’re all speaking English’ things?

  19. Daniel Jimenez wrote:

    As a student of the Japanese language and culture, I have met a lot of people like the white women described in the article. I remember when I was in an intensive japanese course that I found a few women who adopted the most submissive gestures they were capable of every time they spoke Japanese. Again, I’m not talking about the humble expressions and verbal forms that exist in the Japanese language (which, by the way, they used for EVERYTHING, even when it was not appropiate), I am talking about their body language and gestures, which were very different from when they spoke in English. I understand that sometimes you have to change your body language when you are speaking in another language, but believe me, this was extreme.

    As far as I know, their way of acting was not related to their admiration of geishas, but to their own stereotypes about Japanese women. Nevertheless, I believe that it is a very similar phenomenon.

  20. Minotaar wrote:

    Perhaps this is what everyone is saying, or perhaps it’s just in my head, but to me it hasnt been said bluntly enough to sink in. Regardless of the historical roles of geisha, I find it impossible to dispel the suspicion that these fetishists are appropriating geisha for sexual reasons.

    Why cant they just come out and fucking admit it? Its not offensive to me that non-Japanese want to be geisha; its not any different from non-Asian people wanting to practice (Asian) martial arts, or Asian people going to Renaissance festivals, EXCEPT for this sexual aspect of it.

    I think if they admit that its a fetish, then we could all just exhale, write them off as freaks, and move on. Isnt that the only thing that sets them aside from the latex inflatable costume fetishists and the furry animal costume fetishists? Those people ADMIT they are doing it for sexual reasons, and they wouldnt DARE correct anyone else about “how a cat meows”, or whatever.

    The other thing that really offends me is the idea that they believe they should be trying to correct anyone about knowing anything about Japan. Humility is a well respected virtue in Japan, and I wish these fucking biters would learn that first.

  21. Misspelled wrote:

    As Miss Suburban White American Girl, I feel like I can maybe add something to this discussion re: why white women “relate to” and obsess over geisha culture as it’s distilled and marketed by Arthur Golden and Columbia Pictures.

    I’m sure a lot of them do come it via, to quote the ass-cape post atlasien linked, the “I SO BADLY want to be Japanese” way of thinking — the generation of anime-loving white kids with fake Japanese YouTube handles who think The Last Samurai is a great movie and love any fantasy book written by a white author that includes a culture “based on feudal Japan.” That’s straight-up cultural fetishization, and obviously it feeds into this phenomenon like nothing else could.

    But with a lot of girls I know, the geisha obsession was a phase in a long series of similar book- or movie-based subcultural trends — pirates (as in of the Caribbean), Tudor England (as in The Other Boleyn Girl), bohemian culture historical (as in Moulin Rouge) and modern (as in Rent). Even the Twilight vampire thing, to a certain extent. In other words, anything that has an air of “underworld,” counterculture, or intrigue about it. Pirates were romantic outlaws; Henry VIII’s court was all about sex, marriage, politics and death; both sets of bohemians lived on the edges of society, at least partly by artistic and ideological choice, and died young and tragically of TB or AIDS; the vampire is a frigging vampire.

    With Memoirs of a Geisha, you get a lot of the same elements: an “exotic” sexual culture with its own ritual and ettiquette; a feeling of “living dangerously” in terms of the questionable social standing that goes with the job and the oh-so-romantic possibility of losing everything if your career fails and being cast out to starve to death in picturesque squalor; pretty costumes; the “let’s put on a show” aspect of the job; and, obviously, sex.

    So for some of the women have latched onto this culture, I don’t think it’s that they miss the geisha-prostitution connection, or that they’re incapable of realizing that the social scene they’re emulating, and the fact that they choose to emulate it, is kind of fucked up for the actual women involved; I think that’s the appeal. It’s back to the old glamorous idea of the female sex worker/performer/courtier/criminal who embraces her precarious, marginalized position in society, who conveniently wants for herself exactly and only what’s offered by her environment, who revels in society’s lack of respect for her and makes the most of it.

    I do think that, in just wanting to fetishize a scene they’ve “discovered,” they miss the fact that there are already real people and real cultural baggage attached to it. They’ll probably never have thought critically about the issue of cultural and ethnic fetishization and sexual stereotyping, and all of the other groups I’ve seen them fantasize themselves into — 1890s Parisians, modern-day New Yorkers, colonial pirates, Renaissance nobility — are also white and share their European cultural background. They’re thinking in attractive images, not in cultural settings. I can see how a white girl from my school would imagine her “geisha” persona as quiet, doll-like, demure, polite, acquiescing — and never realize that she was casting herself in an image of Asian female sexuality and not just in a certain personality type that interests her at the moment. As ever, sheer ignorance plays a big part. They encounter it out of context and just go, “Oh, fascinating,” without sparing a thought for how it fits into anybody’s life other than their own. I’m sure they also don’t think about how bohemian culture emerged out of Victorian repression or how European colonists brought piracy to the Caribbean in the first place, but at least those fetishes don’t have immediate and current social casualties in the same way that obsessively preserving the sexual objectification of Asian women does.

    Sorry about the length and the slight off-topicness.

  22. Erika wrote:

    Very, very interesting point by Misspelled — I’d never looked at this particular phenomenon from that angle before. And it makes so much sense.

    But yeah, Geisha/s are not irrelevant in modern Japanese culture at all, and modern geisha are not prostitutes, either. They’re still looked at with respect, though, and their profession is glamorized in the media. As it takes a lot of money and detachment from a normal teenage life (geisha aren’t allowed to date), not many girls actually do join the business, but they still romanticize it.

  23. maus wrote:

    “But the weirdest piece has got to be white women. You would think they wouldn’t have a stake in this dynamic, but the most ardent geisha-worshippers seem to be white women who identify with geisha. They want to remake themselves into treasured objects. They want to steal a sexuality that’s already stolen. The project of arcane knowledge mastery, of transformation, of “becoming”, gives them sexual excitement.”

    While this is all true, quite a bit of similar fetishes are designed to be fantasy alone, the reality is a lot more gritty and less sexy. But hey, that’s what role-playing is for.

  24. Claudia Leung wrote:

    @ Daniel

    I think your comment speaks also to another issue of cultural appropriation (or performance?) in second-language acquisition and use. I wonder if someone could/would do a post about this.

  25. kate wrote:

    agree with Claudia- would love to see a post on cultural appropriation in second-language acquisition and use. As a student of Chinese, I have sort of always felt a little bit bizarre studying a language that I have no connection to – at least when I was studying Spanish I felt like I was reaching back to my cultural roots and the current social/political situation in the US. but why is a white american studying chinese if not to …try to make money off it or something? :P And it really wasn’t until I actually studied in china and got to travel within the country that I fully realized the diversity of the country, the richness of the language and the culture I encountered, etc… but I’ve encountered a lot of people who don’t seem to think about that much– not to mention a LARGE number of laowai (foreigners) men who seem to just be learning Chinese so they can better attract a Chinese girlfriend….

    Anyway, I also agree with Misspelled. Thanks so much for this great post.

  26. karak wrote:

    99% of all people who claim to “know more” than a member of an actual cultural group are filled with shit. Damn weeaboos.

  27. Anonymous wrote:

    @method (#5)
    Hasn’t the geisha culture just been turned into the hostess culture in Japan?

    Or maids. I don’t know if hostesses will play games with you but maids will and drinking games are part of a geisha’s r0utine. Not that I’ve ever been to any places where any of the three above work though. I only know what the TV mini-documentaries and a friend that works in a job like a hostess (but isn’t) say.

    And in a different but similar vein, we have Maiko-haaaaaaaan!
    http://www.maikohaaaan.com/index.html

  28. method wrote:

    I wish that Misspelled’s comment were part of the original article. It describes what is likely the actual phenomenon, which I feel is obscured by the rhetoric and passion in the main post.

    The post doesn’t really deal with the simple idea that people like to fantasize about joining other cultures, especially traditional cultures. The idea that young girls are attracted to “underworlds” is also a valuable psychological insight, especially when it’s considered that these underworlds are supposed to be liberating (immortalgeisha: “I admired them for their strength and willpower to achieve in a male dominated culture.”). The fantasy of a traditional life, whether it’s a male’s desire to be a “warrior” or a female’s desire to be in a treasured or protected role, has to do with feelings of social anomie–lack of social connection, missing sense of purpose, etc. Before you can understand why people like geisha you should try to understand why people like Renaissance fairs.

    There is also a lot of comparison of apples and oranges in the post. I think that atlasien is mainly concerned with sexual objectification of Asian-American women, or sexual objectification of Asian women in general by white men. But to appearances the white women are only objectifying the Japanese geisha, whose identities are already largely defined by being sexual objects for the Japanese (by sexual I mean in the broad sense of fulfilling desires). They are not interested in being like Japanese prostitutes, or like Japanese “hostesses”, who are the contemporary version of geisha (not many geisha left, but many hostess bars in Japan).

    This suggests that the white women aren’t interested in owning or controlling the image of Asian-American women at all. If she’s not wearing an obi and white makeup they aren’t interested in her, right? White male fetishists, on the other hand, don’t really care if an Asian woman is American or not. This is the connection that’s left dangling in the post. How does some white woman’s interest in an outmoded Japanese custom convert directly into the equivalent of “the anonymous man who shouts a pornographic joke at a young, vulnerable Asian-American girl”? Maybe there is a connection, but it’s not made very clear in the post.

    Finally, there is this idea in the post and several comments here that there is an either/or choice between sexual “fetish” and cultural activity. Lots of things we do involve fantasies of “becoming”. It’s okay to say they’re sex, but then they’re not “merely” sex. It’s a common anti-gay talking point to say “only gay people define themselves by who they have sex with”, that is, their cultural activity shouldn’t be “sexual” (”and their parades!”).

  29. Aiyo wrote:

    great post and I agree with you people need to own up to their fetishes and learn how to seperate fantasy from reality

  30. little mixed girl wrote:

    [quote]That’s pretty insulting; however, there’s a limit to the negative effects on Japanese nationals. They don’t have a strong need for tourists to give them cultural validation. But attitudes like that can be truly devastating to the vulnerable Japanese-Americans who grow up surrounded by white culture…[/quote]
    From some of the stuff I see on tv here, I feel like a lot of times Japanese nationals DO want validation of their culture from overseas tourists. Especially Western ones.

    I feel like the Japanese government has a huge interest in selling culture.
    4o some years ago, geisha, samurai, ninjia, kurosawa were all the big thing; but now it’s anime.

    Books written in English about Japan by Japanese people often have words like “beautiful ancient culture”, “refined”, “traditional”, and whatever else that can be used to exotify.

    So, what you get is Japan using highly charged images and words to attract foreigners to Japan, those foreigners then come (and the local news acts “surprised” at the foreigners who are interested in samurai and anime).
    The foreigner is shown the aesthetically pleaseing parts of Japanese culture, and told to tell friends and family back home.
    For men, this usually translates into “Japanese women are more feminine, thin, beautiful, caring, etc than American women”. This is of course brought back and spread as gospel.

    Of course the two groups aren’t thinking or caring that they are helping to spur on stereotypes.

    As to white women, I think the geisha thing is used because geisha are used to represent all that is good about Japanese culture and women:
    cultured, educated, clothing with “tradition”, movement that is more focused on aesthetics and having meaning than just “pouring tea”.

    I think that to those that try to emulate the geisha image, it’s because they are feeling the pain (?) that comes with being unwanted or inferior in some way.
    I guess if you put on the clothes and whatever, it’s your way of trying to get back those men that admire geisha?

    I admittedly don’t know much about geisha. I was never really interested in the geisha/samurai/ninja part of Japanese culture…and I thought that the only non-Japanese Americans who were really into that were in their 40s and older :x

  31. Jo wrote:

    Geisha was a very popular halloween costume when I was a kid and most parents didn’t know better than their children. There were several other Asian adoptees besides myself in my community and despite none of us being adopted from Japan, it was a popular choice for our mothers to dress us up as geisha for halloween or the equivalent here in Denmark. I was never dressed as geisha and back then I resented it because I didn’t know better. The only none Asian who was dressed as geisha was a Danish American girl (like myself) whose dad was African American so she was mixed and apparently that was enough excuse to dress her as geisha.

    You’ve raised some questions regarding Asian women’s sexual identities (because we don’t all have one sexual identity) that I haven’t thought of before because my life experiences and reality is different from that of Asian American women. Denmark is very homogenous (it pisses other Danes off when I state this matter of factly) relative to many other countries so there are many experiences I’ll never have here as a none-white person but just as many unpleasant experiences that’ll repeat themselves more often for me than perhaps for someone living in a diverse country who have people of their own background to support them.

    I feel very vulnerable when forced into a sexual stereotype whether it’s intentional or just plain ignorance on the other person(s) part. The only coping mechanism I have learnt is to play on my poor hearing which usually results in people assuming I don’t speak Danish fluently and therefor am not as Danish as them and that makes many people feel they have a right to look at me, talk about me and even touch me in ways you don’t usually do with people you don’t know intimately.

    That sort of behavior is sort of on the decline because I don’t go any where to socialize without my husband. It’s not worth the hassle!

  32. atlasien wrote:

    @method: my piece is centered on Asian-women, not white women. I think Misspelled’s comment is a great analysis that fills in a lot of blanks for me, but it’s explaining the behavior of white women, not the effect of their behavior on others.

    The connection you’re looking for is pretty clear to people like MelMel and myself because we’ve experienced it directly. Geisha worshippers tend to create exactly the same [Asian-American woman = Asian woman = Japanese woman = potential geisha] symbolic that a heterosexual white man would.

    So let’s say you’re a Japanese-American woman who feels like wearing a yukata around the house (informal summer kimono, very comfortable).

    “You look like a geisha!”

    Or you’re getting ready to go out at night and put on more makeup than usual.

    “You look like a geisha!”

    Or you’re just walking around being yourself.

    “You look like a geisha!”

    I’ve seen geisha worshippers bitching about how it’s so SAD that some Asian-American women won’t embrace her geisha heritage, how in fact they’re better at wearing geisha outfits than Japanese-Americans and they appreciate it more and blah blah blah. It’s like they think Asian-ness is a precious gift wasted on Asian-Americans.

    It’s all part of an extremely racist ownership complex where white people feel they own the culture and can judge everyone else on how they conform to that culture. I’ve been experiencing it all my life… judgements that I should speak Japanese fluently, that I should have greater knowledge of obscure anime, that I should appreciate the rich tradition of geisha. And supposedly I’m less of a person for not having conformed to certain stereotypes in this regard.

    I don’t believe that culture and fetish can always be neatly separated. I just hate it when they’re enshrined so that the sexual element is denied… it’s the height of hypocrisy. Misspelled’s comment about vampires is a great example of the mixture of culture and fetish. It’s a lot easier to get people to admit that being into vampires involves a heavy dose of sex.

    Oh, and when it comes to samurai, I’m similarly iconoclastic. I once made a warrior-mystique-of-the-samurai-believer almost cry when I told him they were just a bunch of thuggish social parasites with psychopathic tendencies and bad haircuts.

    I don’t want to get too much into a debate about the exact degree of relevancy of geisha in modern Japan as a whole, I’ll just say again that relevancy is going to depend heavily on region (Kyoto at the epicenter, obviously) generation and social grouping.

  33. method wrote:

    Okay, thanks, atlasien. I don’t really know about the experiences you’re talking about, so I’ll take your word on them. The one thing I wonder about, though, is whether it’s the fetishism or the specific symbolic you describe that is damaging. Can’t someone be passionate about an aspect of a foreign culture, even an outdated aspect, and still not subscribe to that kind of symbolic?

  34. Joseph wrote:

    @atlasien
    This is fascinating and I am still thinking it through but I wanted to add something. You wrote,

    “It’s all part of an extremely racist ownership complex where white people feel they own the culture and can judge everyone else on how they conform to that culture. I’ve been experiencing it all my life… judgments that I should speak Japanese fluently, that I should have greater knowledge of obscure anime, that I should appreciate the rich tradition of geisha. And supposedly I’m less of a person for not having conformed to certain stereotypes in this regard.”

    I think that is the flip side of the forced assimilation/fear of the perpetual other that is a particularly Asian version of orientalism in the West. It is a classic catch-22: Assimilate! Speak English! Reject an ethnic identity in favor of a national one! (PS: no matter how hard you try we will never truly believe you are a thoroughly western person at heart, but we will still hold your successful westernization–which we can revoke at any moment!–against you.)

    There really is no way to win, is there?

  35. Minotaar wrote:

    [q]Oh, and when it comes to samurai, I’m similarly iconoclastic. I once made a warrior-mystique-of-the-samurai-believer almost cry when I told him they were just a bunch of thuggish social parasites with psychopathic tendencies and bad haircuts.[/q]

    ROFL

  36. bococalady wrote:

    although i dont know the culture, i always thought thats what they were. can someone explain the difference? i really want to know.

  37. Safiya Outlines wrote:

    “It’s like they think Asian-ness is a precious gift wasted on Asian-Americans.”

    Jackpot!

    Either your culture isn’t good enough (for example the way Arab culture is mocked and viewed as backward), or you’re not good enough for your culture.

  38. Restructure! wrote:

    atlasien, Can you submit this post to the Asian Women Blog Carnival #2?

    http://oyceter.dreamwidth.org/828184.html

    I think it is awesome, and other Asian women would benefit from reading this, all laid out like that.

  39. atlasien wrote:

    Sure, Restructure, I went ahead and left a comment at that link. I think that means I submitted it…

  40. octogalore wrote:

    Atlasien, great post.

    Interesting link between geisha and stripper — in some ways closer than geisha and prostitute, IMO, having been both a geisha-type hostess in a Japanese hostess bar and a stripper.

    The stripper who cultivates a “regular” forges a relationship similar to a geisha and her “danna.” That can involve sex, going from a lap dance to the full shebang, but is most often characterized by the woman molding her actions and words to cater to certain telegraphed desires on the part of the customer (who prefers to think of himself in other terms).

    So, cannot agree with you more that the fetishization of geisha is problematic — it fetishizes an erasure of the self in the interests of catering to another’s desires. In a way all jobs involve a component of this, but very few in so enveloping a way as with the geisha or stripper who has regulars.

  41. Zahra wrote:

    Atlasien, thank you much for this post.

    As a white woman and feminist, I’ve struggled with sex-positive feminism…I agree with so many of its ideals, and yet it so often seems filled with racialized dynamics. Some of it is what Misspelled discribes above; some also seems rooted in a white-women-weren’t-allowed-to-embrace-their-sexuality-in-specific-ways-so-now-everyone-should-embrace-them-like-we-are, which quickly shades into a not-listening-to-woc-who-are-struggling-with-being-oversexualized-and-other-experiences, which snowballs.

    This gets particular ugly in debates about sex work/prostitution, and it troubles me how very, very white and educationally privileged the pro-sex work side has been (in my experience). It seems to reinforce racial hierarchies that already play out in US sex work, with white & college-educated women filling the “high-end” part of the spectrum not wanting to talk about the violence faced by women working the street, who are overwhelmingly of color…I’m still trying to make sense of what I’ve seen and figure out where I, as someone who aspires to being an anti-racist, stands.

    I don’t really understand the geisha, and where/if they fit on the prostitution/sex work continuum, expect for the vague sense that geisha has meant very different things at different times in Japan. (Wasn’t it originally a male profession that women took over? I’ve read that, but like everything I read about geisha I’m not sure whether to trust it.)

    But institutions that look similar, at least to me, have been a major part of Western culture for centuries. Courtesans in Italy, qiyan in Muslim Spain (who were captured and imported to France), and–probably the best example–hetaera in ancient Greece all provided paying men with not just or necessarily sex, but female companionship, highly skilled performances culturally important arts (music, poetry, dance, etc), and the illusion of love.

    Except of course these women were slaves who had no choice in their profession, and far less power than has previously been claimed. Greek literature paints a very idealized picture of the hetaera, but archaeology has undercut that portrait considerably.

    Still, if white women are after that fantasy, why not draw from a white source? Western culture claims Greek culture as a foundational source in lots of other ways.

    The fact that there’s cultural amnesia about these traditions, and that they are projected exclusively onto Japan and maybe other Asian cultures, really disturbs me. It seems symbiotic with the type of othering and appropriation you describe.

  42. A. wrote:

    For me, this article hits very close to home.

    My roommate and best friend has this problem. She’s from Japan, and has the problem of random guys coming up to her and saying that she should “Act more Japanese.” or “Say something to them in Japanese.” I tend to get the residual effect of that, as I generally am around her much of the time – and we get some creepers. We get the guys that are like, “Wow, a black chick AND an a Japanese chick that are good friends” and somehow think that we should do something to turn them on (weirdass interracial lesbian porn fantasy). The other problem that she comes across when we hang around each other is that white men and women think that she shouldn’t hang around me because I’m black, and therefore should be overly aggressive, and my aggressiveness is rubbing off on her, and if it weren’t for me, she’d be a docile/submissive Japanese girl.

    White people are very possessive in regards to her even *daring* to be best friends with someone black, to the point that when we were looking for apartments, we both had the issue of white MEN coming up to us and asking us “do you ladies need a third person to help you with the rent,” often times looking at her. The white women generally just glare at me for hanging around her, or try to correct me on my Japanese (Japanese, which, BTW, I’ve learned from said friend and already know what the damn pronunciation is), particularly when these women only speak one or two words of the language (usually no more than “Hajimemashite” or “Kawaii!”

    This post, for me, is not simply about the sexuality of Asian women period, but instead one of ownership. And it’s not just my roommate that has this problem – it’s my other friends that deal with this too.

  43. Aris wrote:

    A. (comment #42): WOW.

  44. WeCareALot wrote:

    Zahra,

    LOVE your comment. I’m a black woman and feminist and I have had the exact same problems with sex-positive feminism. You really echoed my sentiments perfectly.

    Atlasien,

    This was a great post. Both thought-provoking and inspirational judging by the insightful comments that followed. Please write more!

  45. ElleDee wrote:

    A., omg, YES. I’m a white woman who studied Japanese and lived in Japan for a while. There’s weird competitiveness between Westerners living in Japan anyway, but I frequently ran into these Japanese fetishist guys that hated my guts because I was there being too American white woman-ish in their personal erotic fantasy. You could just see how their mind works: they love Japanese women because “all” Japanese women are quite and submissive and and way hot and probably willing to do crazy, kinky things with them because they all loooove American guys… that’s the whole reason they love Japan; they have this racist, misogynistic, erotic stereotype in their mind. And they hate me because American chick = loud, aggressive, ugly female = the worst! thing! in the world who dared to make Japan less Japanese with my very presence. Oh, and I usually fit in with my community better because I had better language skills and dealt with people like they were individuals and not all replicas, so being bested at their own game by a girl made them extra mad.

    Anyway, so of course these guys are invested in maintaining geisha culture; they want to fuck geisha (their inner concept of them anyway, they would never let people’s real experiences ruin their vision) and won’t let you take that possibility away from them! It’s like a personal assault to them. And it’s not just geisha, but any kind of sexualized Asian woman archetype. I’m not doing much ex-pat related reading lately, but one of the biggest problems I had with it is that too much of it is coming from Western guys who just straight up get off on it it made me want to throw up.

    (I’m not indicting all male ex-pats in Asia at all, but if you are one and don’t know the kind of guy I’m talking about, well, think about it a little longer and get back to me.)

  46. jaye wrote:

    @ A. #42: Thanks for your post. You get to see people’s real beliefs come out when you step out of your perceived “role”. A lot of times it’s people in your own life that you would never imagine would have these beliefs, until something triggers it and they start saying these unbelievably crazy things. All I can do is stare at them in disbelief, and just walk away.

  47. A. wrote:

    @ElleDee and jaye – That’s EXACTLY it. A lot of the white guys here (and I go to school in the middle of cornfields) are absolutely preoccupied with not just her, but pretty much EVERYTHING that the Asian women on the campus do. I could comment on her facebook with something in Japanese (I asked her if she was alright) and this one guy just started freaking out on me and her, asking us “What did ‘I’ just say to her, and is this some sort of inside joke or they feel left out.” He basically made it about him and how left out he feels, when really, it’s nothing more than just two young women speaking to each other in Japanese.

    Just as I said, with not just Western men, but some Western women, they attempt to own this culture that they know little to nothing about, and some generally don’t care to. If they did, they’d know that people like my friends are not docile little dolls. They’re women – with their own ideas and their own attitudes and pet peeves, and holy shit – they even demonstrate ANGER.

    I also think that it is a fear of said Asian women thinking for themselves and being able to make their own judgments without having to consult with white people. Asian women should only deal with the type of Westerners who “care” for them, rather than having friends that care and that they can talk to when they need to root out the disingenuous pricks from the ones who are actually genuine.

    And, me being black, apparently if I help her out with that, I don’t know my place or I’m stepping outside of my role, because god forbid that a black woman should ever deal with any Asian woman.

  48. D. Cho wrote:

    Ok, so Racialicious now condones using sex, gender, and sexual preferences as discriminatory slurs? Yes, let’s all marginalize and malign those sexual “freaks”, Minotaar. And let’s also all chime in and judge and degrade sex workers as untouchable, lower class “whores”. Atlasien’s objections to exotification and race-based fetishism are well founded, but does this justify your demonization of prostitutes? You are slandering (mostly) your own gender. Sex should not be shameful- you are reinforcing misogynistic ‘purity’ and ‘virginal’ standards.

  49. Tapthepope wrote:

    I cringe every time I see or hear the word “whore”.

    Geisha, Just another piece of culture and history that White America has mocked and fetishized.
    Although I am not particularly fond of it myself.

    I haven’t seen anyone else say it so I will.

    There’s nothing wrong with prostitution.
    Maybe not in the Geisha’s case because it may not have been voluntary, but Consent is Consent and no one should be reviled for it. EVER.

  50. Zahra wrote:

    WeCareALot–

    THANKS. It’s really hard for me to articulate these things, and I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who’s seeing them.

    And atlasien, I just want to thank you again for this specific passage:

    “lumping in all sex workers is bad, and so is splitting them all apart. It’s elitist and deeply nasty to say “I’m the nice clean expensive sex worker, not like those low-class dirty whores.” All human beings should be valued the same. But different people in the industry happen to have different experiences. I wouldn’t call myself a whore for working there, or claim that I know what it’s like for all sex workers.”

    We need more of this acknowledging a range of experiences in the conversation about sex work/prostitution.

  51. NancyP wrote:

    I am not trying to soften the obnoxious nature of the geisha fad, however, I wonder if some of the appeal for white women is the stylized somewhat ritualistic performance aspect in association with dating and sex. Is there something in common with the uncritical Jane-mania where women imagine themselves in Regency gowns flirting with or rebuffing Mr. Darcys? Dating scenes in modern “everywhere” have become informal and without well-understood rules which can be used to signal intent in a less obvious and direct manner.

  52. Jess wrote:

    OK, I am late to this.

    altasien made me think of a number of things that played out in my grandparents’ marriage, of all things, and when I read a great book (if dated) called The Japanese Mind for a Japanese history class.

    The upshot is that many things white Americans see aren’t what really is.

    For example, geishas were a complicated thing, not simply sex workers and not simply dolls, any more than strippers are simply sex workers and prostitutes, you know? It’s more complicated than that. Same with samurai or any other bits of Japanese culture. Some of it just doesn’t translate, and you get the fetishization stuff as a result.

    Then there’s women. Well, the simplest way to put it is that much of what American men see as ‘passive’ is really just the Japanese thing of not pushing confrontation in an obvious way. Many marriages between American men and Japanese women fail for this reason.

    For instance, in Japan women (the mother) has the say in where the kids go to school and a lot of home-stuff, kind of like how in the states it’s sort of expected that men will be the ones with the lawnmowers. Anyhow, one of the interactions that happens will go something like this:

    Man: Honey, I think the kids should go to X school.

    Woman: That’s nice, dear. [Now I am going to ignore you completely, because you have just asked something that any self-respecting man back home would have left to me completely].

    Man is suddenly shocked that he was ignored.

    These kinds of cultural disconnects can create all kinds of problems.

    (I’m just using this as a small example by the way, I am not making any sweeping assertions about Japanese culture, just trying to give an idea of how the mechanism of misinterpretation and ignorance happens).

  53. Cate wrote:

    thank you for this incredibly powerful post.

  54. Michelle wrote:

    I realize this is a rather late response, but this post stuck to me (followed it here from the Asian Women Blog Carnival) and I thought of it again when I read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jaemin-kim/lets-call-it-what-it-is_b_163698.html

    It talks about the link between the fetishization of Asian women and anti-Asian hate crimes, specifically rape. Like the article says, sexualization, fetishization, and objectification are neither flattering nor harmless.

  55. SuperGrouper wrote:

    It’s a bit much to say that everyone at immortalgeisha has some sort of “fetish” for geisha. It’s nothing sexual- geisha are an interesting topic of study.

    In my case, my interest in the history of geisha stems from my hobby as a textile collector and student. The kimono traditionally worn by geisha use many types of intricate textile art techniques, which would be a topic of interest for any artist. Much of my own design is inspired by ancient far-Eastern textile patterns.

    Perhaps your construance that people who are interested in geisha have a sexual interest in them is, in itself, a sign of over-sexualization? :/ I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but it’s kind of weird how everyone these days seems to slap a “this is sexual!” label on everything. I like marine fish, too- but I’m not attracted to them. *shudder*

    History, anthropology, art and textiles are all interesting subjects (to me, at least) and the subjects converge in the history of geisha. I have absolutely no desire to be one, be with one or objectify one- I simply find their history (particularly regarding textiles) interesting.