How Do We View Global Hip Hop Culture? [Series Introduction: On Cultural Appropriation]

by Latoya Peterson

Today, I got three text messages in rapid succession from my friend Hae.

“Check out the new MV from 2ne1 called Fire!”

“Song is addicting!”

“Street version is better than space version!”

I knew YouTube wouldn’t let me down, so I headed over there to see if someone posted an English translation:

2NE1 is just one group in a long line of Korean hip-hop (or hip-pop, according to some, but more on that later*) artists that I have enjoyed thanks to JYP Entertainment and YG Entertainment. While YG is credited with popularizing the hip-hop sound in Korea, both companies have received major success with their artists.

There’s the Wonder Girls:

And Big Bang:

Back when I first discovered Korean hip-hop, I was quite fond of showing my friends this video by 1TYM, called “Do You Know Me?”:

After watching the video, my friends had a range of reactions everything from “Who knew Koreans rolled hard?” to amazement to laughter. But some people weren’t quite as accepting, posing the question “Why do they have to take our stuff?”

Is there a such thing as “our stuff?” I grappled with this question in the specific context of a global hip-hop culture. Six years ago, I was looking up scholarly articles on hip-hop for a research paper when I stumbled across an obscure article in a random journal about the spread of hip-hop in Japan. The article posited hip-hop’s growth was fueled by young Zainichi who keenly felt their second-class status and could relate to the lyrics and culture of American hip-hop.

Ever since then, I’ve looked to see where hip-hop flourishes around the globe in hopes of understanding its appeal. Before hip-hop was recognized as a major influence on youth culture , I found articles, documentaries, and mixtapes from places like Palestine, Thailand, Cuba, South Africa, and Haiti. Seeing what I felt to be “my culture” reflected back at me in so many ways was a jarring experience – everything, good and bad had been replicated and remixed and each hip-hop scene emerges with a style all its own.

While preparing this series on Cultural Appropriation, I realized that the dialogue around cultural appropriation and global hip-hop culture follow similar lines of argument. What constitutes appropriation and what is an homage? When are we borrowing versus flat out stealing? What are the power dynamics involved in this conversation?

The idea of cultural appropriation is one fraught with misunderstandings, minefields of misinterpretation, and other issues. I’ve been struggling with how to launch this series for a while now – exactly, what can one say? The Angry Black Woman opened up a conversation back in January, asking her readers to define cultural appropriation. After 103 comments, there were still more questions than answers.

So, in launching this series, I hope to provide points for discussion, but not necessarily firm solutions. The idea is not to provide a go to guide on appropriation, but to illuminate some of the issues in these types of conversations.

—-
*I’m not talking about the different views on what’s “real” hip-hop in this post. Later, when I started taking a serious look at the trends and representations of hip-hop abroad, I found out that the same battles that happen here occur elsewhere. While reading some back information on Jinusean, I saw the message boards filled with those who claimed that Jinusean was hip-pop and the real hip hop in Korea was represented by groups like Drunken Tiger and the whole Movement crew.

Here’s one of Drunken Tiger’s videos, called “Do You Know Hip Hop”:

It’s also worth noting that Drunken Tiger had a mega-hit in Korea from their song “Sweet Talk,” which uses the same melody as Camp Lo’s “Black Connection.”

—-

“Fire” actually isn’t 2ne1’s debut song – their first one was with the boys of Big Bang, called “Lollipop.” I have no idea why this video makes me so happy. Maybe it’s all the colors. Maybe it’s because one of the girls is obviously getting her Snork on. Or maybe it’s because the whole video is 80s-a-licious. Either way, I love it so here it is:

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Trackbacks & Pings

Selling Hip Hop Back to the Americans: The Wonder Girls « threebillion.com on 13 May 2009 at 6:22 am

[...] If you want to learn more about Korean Hip Hop just click here [...]
Who owns hip-hop? on 13 May 2009 at 6:20 pm

[...] Racialicious recently posted a blog raising the question, who owns hip hop? In light of the Asian hip hop movement that is clearly infused with American hip hop flavor, how do we feel about it? Are we more excited about seeing a hip hop movement go beyond the US, or are we more gripped with sense of propiety? [...]

Comments

Wendi Muse wrote:

i admit to not having read this article in its entirety (yet), but wanted to note that back in my college days, i did a research project on asian american/african american connections via hip hop, and i listened to a TON of drunken tiger (both in english and korean) and man, they use “nigga” a loooot. i’ve always waivered on how i felt about this aspect of cultural appropriation. the same happens a lot of brazilian funk carioca actually, except that the terminology sometimes is translated into the portuguese equivalent of the word (which is not quite as strong, and more commonly used by everyone)

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:23 am ¶
Luis wrote:

Another question that needs to be asked in tandem with this is where do the Puerto Rican and Jamaican-American pioneers of hip hop in the South Bronx figure when we’re talking about the “we” in “our culture,” which usually implies African-Americans?

If hip hop was multiethnic and multiracial from the get-go, and continued to be throughout its history, then how do we deal with claims of ownership? Is hip hop then owned by racial minorities, like its first participants in New York? So, what does that mean for hip hop by Japanese kids instead of by Zainichi kids, by German kids instead of Turkish-Germans?

It’s much more fraught than “they’re taking what is ours.” It’s more of a “who did it belong to, who does it belong to now, and who should it belong to in the future?”

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:31 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Wendi –

Trust – I’ll be covering that, but I’ll be using a Japanese artist as my illustrating example. The good and bad reflecting back that I referred to is in part the n-word, in part, some other things.

And yeah, DT does use nigga a lot. It’s even more interesting when you check their bio:

In 1992, rapper Ice Cube released a song called “Black Korea,” a song made in response to a shooting of a 15 year old black girl by a Korean shop owner. The song specifically degraded Koreans to what Ice Cube called “Oriental one-penny-countin’ motherfuckers,” but not many from the Korean community responded to the song. However, it inspired one young Korean to break the stereotype.

After hearing the song, Tiger JK (at the time 18) made it his responsibility to show that these stereotypes were untrue and had to be broken. At a hip-hop show that promoted racial harmony, JK spoke his feelings in lyrics rather than a speech, and despite the criticisms he received from that crowd, he still caught the interests of some Korean record labels. (JK had some experience beforehand when he performed at a hiphop show with Micki Eyes). He was signed and then released his first solo, “Call Me Tiger.” Unfortunately, JK’s title song, “Hide & Seek,” didn’t do too well due to censorship placed on the album.

After minimal success, JK returned to his home in Los Angeles. While in LA, JK attended many hip-hop shows, where he eventually ran into DJ Shine from Elmhurst, NY, and DJ Jhig, another LA native. All three shared a common passion for hip-hop culture, and felt that there was a need for a breakthrough Korean hip-hop artist to change common misconceptions about hip-hop and Asian rappers.

A common reflex answer about the use of the word nigga in rap that originates overseas is “They don’t really know what the word means.” But in many cases, a lot of the pioneers of hip hop in other countries spent a significant amount of time in America. It’s interesting how Druken Tiger began as a response to what Ice Cube was doing, but still heavily employ the word nigga in their lyrics.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:34 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

*oh and did you still have that paper Wendi? Would love to see it?

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:35 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Luis –

And I would also ask “Can we say it belongs to any one group?” But again, I’ll get more into this a bit later. But good opening thoughts on that.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:37 am ¶
queerhapa wrote:

I’ve also long been interested in American hip hop artists’ invocation of “Asian” culture. Wu-Tang Clan, of course, being the prime example, but there’s also Foxy Brown, Russell Simmons, etc.

It’s a dialectic!

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:39 am ¶
WestIndianArchie wrote:

>What constitutes appropriation and what is an homage?

All depends on the ear of the audience. Only a very conservative hip hop listener would not consider what the Koreans/Cubans/Venezeulans/French/Nigerians are doing is hip hop.

>When are we borrowing versus flat out stealing?

A true hip hop conservative wouldn’t go down this path, because it only begs the questiion of our own borrowing and stealing.

>What are the power dynamics involved in this conversation?

The globe is in deference to the States, but the States really have no control over how they perceive what the States do.

There is already a healthy debate going on here about what is hip hop, with the conservatives looking in 1 direction, and the liberals looking in the other.

The mass (ie average person who doesn’t think about these things) usually takes a reductionist view that simply states

“as long as it sounds good”

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:40 am ¶
Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

… or maybe modern music today happen to be a form of lingua franca and that NOBODY really owns it? Isn’t modern music just a way of reaching a global audience? It doesn’t matter if you can’t understand the lyrics– it’s the music that counts, right?

I don’t know, to be honest. There are always white, black and Latino folks experimenting with modern Indian music (like Bollywood Hindi pop songs or bhangra), but I really don’t see it as cultural appropriation.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:57 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

Global hip-hop culture – as music, as a market, as a movement – is problematic. I’ll confess that my knowledge and familiarity of international rap is limited. In many ways, I feel that the global embracing of hip-hop culture has helped validate it, something that as late as 1989 was a challenge. Remember when Salt-N-Pepa, The Fresh Prince and DJ Jazzy Jeff, Young MC and a whole host of other CROSS-OVER ARTISTS (?!) couldn’t catch a break on MTV? I do. A whole lotta media critics were convinced that rap was just gonna dry up and blow away; dry up it didn’t, but blow around the world it did, so credit where it’s due. ::: raises fist :::

However, one thing the globalization of hip-hop is partially responsible for is the internationalizing of the n-bomb. I’m serious. I heard that shit so much abroad I thought it might have been someone’s name. From the streets of Dakar to the bars of Rotterdam, I heard the n-bomb dropped – in songs, in conversation – with an ignorance of its impact that appalled me. Worst was hearing it in unedited American hip-hop on the radio (no FCC regulating done). I actually got in a fight with two friends, one West African and the other originally from Lebanon, who argued that the n-bomb was not harmful outside of the United States because it somehow meant something different. My opinions on the matter where summarily-dismissed (because I have a vagina and a lot of folks around the world consider that an impediment to my thinking ability), but it highlighted how dangerous consumption without comprehension can be.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:00 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

ROFF, okay, this is what can happen when you take too long to comment, I see Wendi picked it up.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:03 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

Personally, I don’t like abstract definitions of cultural appropriation.

It’s a concept like “art”, or “fetish”… impossible to define everywhere, any time, for every possible circumstance.

I think it’s much better to define cultural appropriation based on the people it affects. Does it hurt them in some way? If so, it’s probably cultural appropriation. If not, it’s probably just cultural borrowing or cultural drift.

There’s never going to be a 100% sure way of deciding that something is cultural appropriation, because the people being stolen from/borrowed from aren’t always going to agree. But you can make decisions informed by their arguments and weight of numbers.

There was a good conversation about this a while back at Rachel’s Tavern… someone who didn’t believe in cultural appropriation came up with the example “what about cooking Italian food if you’re not Italian?” The counterargument was that there’s nothing wrong with cooking Italian food if you’re not Italian… but if you go to Italy and start lecturing Italians that their way of cooking food is inferior to your more authentic Italian cooking style, then yes, you’ve crossed the line and turned into a rude and obnoxious cultural appropriator.

If you use this standard for global hip-hop, you could ask a series of questions… how is it hurting the group of people from the originating culture? How are these people being damaged or insulted or disrespected or taken away from, and to what extent? Are the people who view it as appropriation versus borrowing a minority opinion, or a majority opinion? And what is the level of power disparity between the originating culture and the appropriating/borrowing culture… the power disparity that determines the relative attention being paid to people who complain?

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:19 am ¶
WhatANightmare wrote:

I don’t remember who mentioned this earlier, but I always feel that this cultural appropriation/is it really ours? talk seems to only come up when it revolves around music with (possibly) African American/Black origins. I want to know why it is that other groups are allowed to claim their heritage, while everything that *we* (may or may not) create is up for debate?

I don’t know much about global hip hop either, but I don’t feel bad for wanting to claim SOMETHING considering all of the history and culture that was taken away from us with slavery.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:29 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@LDP:

A common reflex answer about the use of the word nigga in rap that originates overseas is “They don’t really know what the word means.” But in many cases, a lot of the pioneers of hip hop in other countries spent a significant amount of time in America.

SIGH. Cosign. They know what it means.
They just don’t know how it feels.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:29 am ¶
Michelle wrote:

im not gonna get all eloquent about this, but bottom line, i DIG it. im in my mid 30s and can remember as a little kid all the talk about how rap/hip hop was noise that wasnt gonna last…that it was a fad. i makes me supremely happy to know that it has been embraced to the extent that it has, and i dont really care to read into, or deconstruct it. i also find it incredibly refreshing to see that something thats not so euro-centricist being embraced by all since it would seem that so many things that are widely emulated today are euro-centric…

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:38 am ¶
Camilo Smith wrote:

Just wondering what people thought about this:
http://iknowhuh.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/winner-is-flex-or-nigga/

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:39 am ¶
Sean wrote:

When are we borrowing versus flat out stealing? What are the power dynamics involved in this conversation?

IMHO, it boils down to whether or not the originators of a given cultural contribution are properly acknowleged and/or credited.

Sure, the Wu-Tang Clan borrowed heavily from Asian cultures to create their style, but there is no imminent danger of society forgetting the Asian cultural origins of the style BECAUSE OF the Wu-Tang Clan.

Moreover -and not saying that Asian hip-hoppers are doing this specifically- once an indigenous artform is adopted by society at large, there is this tendency to marginalize and minimize the indigenous people as originators of the artform.

How often do we hear “___________ isn’t about being black or white, or yellow, or brown…. it’s about being human.” As altruistic as that sounds, it’s often at the expense of exploiting the people who created “________.”

From the standpoint of having grown up in the south Bronx in the 1970’s, and remembering the impromptu block parties, it’s nothing short of mind-blowing to see how hip-hop has become a global phenomenon. This is especially gratifying since I remember how it was considered a “fad” that would soon disappear.

However, in the march toward globalization, I hope that it doesn’t go the way that jazz, blues and rock went, such that the indigenous creators have no knowledge of their legacy.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 12:12 pm ¶
PPR_Scribe wrote:

“Why do they have to take our stuff?”

Who is “we”? If I am a 40-something, middle-class/suburban/never-raised-in-the-ghetto, Black woman do I get to be the gatekeeper for Black urban cultural artifacts? Do I get to lament the fact that the world equates “Black culture” with the gangsta posing that the young people on these videos are adopting?

My answer is no to the first question and definitely yes to the second.

This kind of appropriation “hurts” precisely because it does not become divorced from its referent, but instead comes to symbolize all aspects of a wider culture.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 12:41 pm ¶
Ebony wrote:

@ Latoya- Have you ever read Hip-hop Japan? It touches upon reappropriating hip-hop to Japanese culture (and how many believe it really can’t be done). I’d say the larger focus is on the business of hip-hop in Japan, but a decent read nonetheless: http://www.amazon.com/Hip-Hop-Japan-Paths-Cultural-Globalization/dp/0822338920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242146316&sr=8-1

Posted 12 May 2009 at 12:43 pm ¶
PPR_Scribe wrote:

Re: the power dynamics of cultural appropriation:

Power is always central to discussion of cultural appropriation, just as it is in discussion about racism. If we agree that appropriation exists, but it is just a question of where to draw the line (and I am not saying that all of us do or should agree on this point) then we acknowledge that there are those on some cultural “outside” attempting to push over some line and those on some cultural “inside” who may push back.

What tools are available to those pushing and what tools are available to those pushing back? Traditionally, White mainstream US culture, for example, has had the institutional, financial and other societal power to both push in and to hold the line on its own cultural/institutional boundaries. “Appropriation” was problematic because of the power imbalance.

It gets much more interesting and complex when we are dealing with two non-White culture producers.

With hip-hop I am largely undecided. In the end, I do not think it “belongs” anymore to those people who originated it so perhaps the whole discussion is moot.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 12:58 pm ¶
Wendi Muse wrote:

haha re: the paper…it ended up taking a huuuge shift. bc it started off via tokyo breakfast, this super weird skit about a japanese family that likes hip hop culture…google it. then i shifted from that to japanese appropriation of american hip hop culture (huuuuuge project bc i would need to go back to unpack the early connections with blackface in japan, all that stuff)…so i abandoned ship and got more specific…apa folks and the connection to the black community via hip hop…and decided in the end to focus solely on the abc rapper jin as his body of work was relatively small, super media friendly (lots of tv appearances and articles), and bc i had the chance to interview his marketing folks. in the end, it sort of became a paper about the assertion or reclaiming of masculinity for apa males via hip hop and whether or not that hurt or helped community relations between blacks/latinos, whom rap was supposedly meant to reflect and address, and apas, who are relatively located/seen on a higher level in terms of acceptance, but as more foreign. could hip hop be used as a means of bridging that gap/evening the scale? that was the main question at the end…whew..
unfortunately
i.have.no.idea. where the paper is lol. there were lots of computer mishaps, resaves, and rewrites going on. and while my professor has the final edition, i have no idea where mine is lol.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 1:07 pm ¶
CrzyCatDC wrote:

2NE1 sounds like straight pop to me. Wonder Girls sounds like R&B. Just because they use styles historically used by African-Americans doesn’t make it hip hop.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 1:14 pm ¶
Clara wrote:

Latoya, seeing 2NE1’s music video when I clicked on my Racialicious bookmark made me SO happy! I admit, the song itself is kind of silly, but the Street MV? Dang these girls can dance! I’m Chinese American but I’ve always found the Korean music scene a lot of fun.

Anyway, I’d just like to add that Korean popstars undergo a lot of intense training to get to where they are now. I believe Racialicious linked to Jeff Yang’s article on JYP and the Wondergirls sometime last year, and I think it does a good job of illustrating how much work both the artists and the production company put in.

It’s interesting to me that so many Korean popstars began as trainees. 2NE1 didn’t learn how to dance on their own. They’re singing hip hop because that’s what YG Entertainment wanted from them. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it appears to me that a lot of music in the Korean music industry is manufactured. So when I watch the MV of Wonder Girls’ “Nobody,” it’s not just the girl group on my screen, but the training, publicity, and their superstar manager JYP.

This brings more question to mind when I ask myself, who really is doing the appropriating, and why? If 2NE1 is actually stealing (not borrowing) from hip hop, or if the Wonder Girls are really stealing (not borrowing) from Motown, are they really the ones to blame? Although, I guess this question is more pointed towards the global music industry, rather than musicians.

For the record, I don’t actually think 2NE1 and Wonder Girls are stealing.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to this series!

Posted 12 May 2009 at 1:19 pm ¶
Brigit wrote:

As someone who
loves hip-hop pretty much regardless of where it comes from, I’m really glad to see this post. I just finished an entire class that dealt with pop culture in Japan/cultural appropriation/authenticity, and the only thing I can come away with is that your position related to what you’re studying is the thing that will most influence your views of its authenticity.

Korean hip-hop is interesting because you have these YG artists like Se7en (currently debuting here in the US), Wheesung, and Big Bang, but you also have more almost underground acts like Outsider, and acts that were once underground but got really popular, like Epik High and Verbal Jint. Korean hip-hop/pop runs the gamut almost the same as the American scene does.

The most interesting difference I’ve found is between the hip-hop produced in Japan and that produced in Korea. In Japan, you might have Okinawan, Ainu, and Zainichi hip-hop, but what is most popular is that which is mass-produced: the Teriyaki Boyz, for example. There, it seems harder for those without a connection to a marginalized group to connect with the raps those groups produce.

When it comes down to it, hip-hop to me has always been about giving the marginalized in society a chance to give a voice to their struggle. That the dominant cultures gave appropriated that which they can most handle/find most appealing is in and of itself a part of the dominant culture’s MO and yet still interesting at the same time.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 1:42 pm ¶
lakergrrl wrote:

It’s interesting how Druken Tiger began as a response to what Ice Cube was doing, but still heavily employ the word nigga in their lyrics.

Big Bang just seems like a Korean Nsync to me (right down to the cornrows). The only ones out of the group I would consider close to real hip hop would be Drunken Tiger and 1TYM. But Drunken Tiger is very problematic for me. He’s from LA, says he was trying to break sterotypes and yet he still says nigga. Don’t disrespect the culture your appropriating from.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 1:46 pm ¶
fruitoftheloon wrote:

If anyone’s interested, there’s a book called ‘Kickboxing Geishas’ by Veronica Chambers that has a chapter on Japanese women and hip hop. She talks about hip hop in Japan in general terms, but also more specifically about what it means for women who, like the zainichi, feel marginalized by mainstream Japanese society. Some of the women she talks with have some interesting things to say about their interest in hip hop; if I remember correctly, one of the women ended up studying abroad at a historically Black college. The book is intended for mainstream audiences, so it’s a pretty quick read.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 1:56 pm ¶
cytoken wrote:

Yeah, its everywhere. It’s always funny to see how other artists emulate American rappers. Like French rap

you’ve got a rapper named Booba
who is pretty much the 50 Cent of France. http://www.myspace.com/booba92i
One of his better songs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih3ITd0ZvOg

Then you’ve got more conscious rappers like Diam’s http://diamsofficiel.skyrock.com/

Then you’ve got eminems like Orelsan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2j1BLL0cpg

Same with Japanese rap, Polish rap, Italian rap, UK rap/grime.

The dumbest thing about foreign rap is how they appropriate the culture of violence, when many of them live in relatively safe countries. It’s dumb because many American rappers are faking or no longer live “gangster” lifestyles. So the foreign rappers are faking something fake.

Anyways, Vive le hip hop

Posted 12 May 2009 at 2:12 pm ¶
Jamerican Muslimah wrote:

I don’t have a problem with music being the lingua franca as someone said but I DO have a problem when people appropriate aspects of Jamaican and African-American culture, for instance, but still hold a negative view of Black people. It’s good enough to sample patwa or borrow from Black American slang but dealing with the people themselves…not so much.

I know we’re talking about music but let provide an example that illustrates my point. Shortly after 9/11 I and many other Muslim women who don the headscarf we victims of harassment as a result of our religion. Even though we represent many different nationalities we were viewed as Arab- part of “them”. So I’m in the mall and I notice line leading out of one restaurant. Guess what it was? Middle East Connections…ugh!

Posted 12 May 2009 at 2:30 pm ¶
QueensPie wrote:

This is a tricky issue. I’ve often found Latin@ and white folks more widely accepted into the hip hop fold than Asian Americans, at least in the U.S. I’ve also found this true internationally (use of hip hop to organize in Latin America and Africa, even Europe, but not in Asia). I’ve found that domestic Black-Asian tensions often inform the organizing tool vs. cultural appropriation discussion. I think it’s also important to elevate the mainstream/pop co-optation of hip hop which in it’s truest form is a grassroots cultural expression. Wonder Girls and the other KPop groups can hardly be taken seriously; they’re the Gwen Stefanis and JTs of hip hop, whereas some other groups may be speaking from a place of resistance to oppression and the mainstream. But most importantly to me (at least while I’m writing this) is the critical need to be aware of and expose power dynamics — Whites who enjoy race and maybe class privilege and the corporate executives profiting from the exploitation of POC cultural/artistic expression (here we can add salsa, bhangra, martial arts) is not the same as Asian and Asian Americans or other POC imitating other racially oppressed groups. An anti-racist educator I trained under called it “crabs in a barrel.”

In a nutshell, imitation is not the same as appropriation.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 3:17 pm ¶
foshothoyo wrote:

@ whatanightmare: CO-SIGN!!! Hip hop is OURS (african-american slavery-surviving diaspora) and everyone else who is using it is appropriating from US. Period.

Hip hop was something before it was co-opted by the mainstream and white-owned media corporations. Post co-opted hip hop is what has been sent around the world, and is what these “global hip-hoppers” are copying from. They are taking from the disney/viacom/mtv-ification of hip hop as profitably subversive pop music directed specifically at teenage girls and boys.

For instance, I don’t care what anyone says, Justin Timberlake is not hip-hop no matter how many times he collaborates with timbaland. He is a post-co-opted pop artist who uses bits and pieces of “hip-hop inspired” hooks and themes in order to fill a certain niche of the international pop music market. Same goes for the Robin Thickes of the world and the Eminems and Rap-Rockers like Kid Rock and all of that crap.

There is a core of hip-hop, that carries on below the radar (because 50-cent is pop, let’s face it here) that maintains and elaborates on the heritage and traditions that come down through blues, jazz, bebop, on down to hip-hop.

I know there are those who say “well, there are all-kinds of hip-hop”. I disagree. Hip-hop inspired, emulating, or appropriating music styles need different names than hip hop, because hip-hop can’t be appropriated or mimicked or emulated by the nature of the music. For instance, trip-hop is a perfect example of how these things should be named so we don’t confuse people about what hip-hop is/was and what pop music has always been – stealing from black people and taking it as their own.

I really don’t see anything different here that warrants a debate on “who owns hip-hop”, because what most people are doing isn’t hip-hop anymore.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 3:27 pm ¶
deb wrote:

Awww-yeah! I have Big Bang’s “La La La” on my mp3 player, but I hadn’t seen the video until now. Thanks for posting.

I was on a K-Pop kick a couple of years ago. (Actually, I still listen to it.) I’m familiar with Epik High, Se7en, Big Mama, etc.

Oh, and Rain–of course.

Tasha (Yoon Mi Rae) sings in Korean. Does she get a pass because she’s Korean and African American?

Posted 12 May 2009 at 3:35 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

I love the exchange of ideas and the different interpretations of music depending on location.

What I don’t like is when the exchange isn’t mutual and when people have biases and a lack of respect for the same groups that pioneered what they’re emulating.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 4:21 pm ¶
Miss Girl wrote:

What about Asian *Americans* (or exilic/refugee Asian people in the US) and hip hop? Anyway…

I don’t feel well versed enough to touch on hip hop, its history, etc., but I feel like there could be some parallels made with the twlf movement where people inspired people around the world and used/borrowed/expanded on each other’s political tactics and strategies. Or am I reaching here?

Posted 12 May 2009 at 4:28 pm ¶
SMS wrote:

My concern is when they make music and wear styles that most people would identify as “black,” but then say racist things about black people, as did one of the guys in Big Bang. When things like that happen, it makes me wonder.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 4:34 pm ¶
Tokyo Kiss wrote:

(This is SMS, by the way.) Oh, here’s a link to the comment made by the member of Big Bang, if you would like to discuss to add it to your discussion in the future.

http://nycseoultokyo.com/2008/01/02/seungri-did-you-really-say-that-aigoo/

Posted 12 May 2009 at 4:43 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@SMS – Thanks for that!

Posted 12 May 2009 at 5:01 pm ¶
eccentricyoruba wrote:

First I should mention that I have been waiting for the cultural appropriation series and am so glad it’s finally here.

I’m coming from the African perspective, I’m Nigerian and I do not like Nigerian hip hop but love South African kwaito. Kwaito has been referred to as South African hip hop but there are many different styles depending on the musician.

I haven’t read through all the comments so I’m not sure if someone has mentioned America’s influence on the world as a whole. It is only logical that African-Americans will have an amount of influence by their virtue of being American.

My theory on global hip hop is two-fold, firstly hip hop is seen as music for the oppressed and as a means of expression. That’s the impression I get when I listen to Palestinian or South African hip hop and this to me is a form of paying homage. Secondly, the hip-hop culture has become a sort of aspiration where people want to be seen as ‘cool’ or ‘hip’, most people who believe this just imitate the hip hop videos they see on MTV without really understanding or necessarily respecting hip hop or even African-Americans. To me another issue is copying where authenticity is seriously lacking.

I claim not to like hip hop or RnB and the only form of hip hop I listen to is kwaito, Eagle Nebula and Q-Tip. I don’t enjoy 2NE1’s track or even Big Bang but I do love Rain, SS501 (limited to their latest album) and DBSK.

I’ve listened to a few Japanese and Korean hip hop tracks and have heard the n-word so I’m looking forward to your post.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 5:18 pm ¶
coloredhoney wrote:

hip hop super percolates discussion and the dance floor. it’s hard to not wanna think you can rap and harder to not want to own its groove. I’m reading tricia rose’s hip hop wars, which I read about here. the book is so on point on the socioeconomic damage that has been wrought throughout black and brown urban and rural communities via an egregious hip hop industry machine. i believe that because african americans, caribbean, and latino consumers are far more vulnerable in their reality to the violent content in the music and because the music did begin in these communities, it’s harder to extend a lense of global generosity where hip hop is concerned.

theories of appropiation vs. stealing abound and are interesting and are true, yet they rarely trump or create equality of understanding where territorial emotions run hot and deep.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 5:36 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

SMS: I didn’t want to point any fingers but…yeah. :/ Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t one of the Wonder Girls or a Korean Girl group say something equally as stupid about Alicia Keyes?

I also heard some whispers about Blacks being mistreated in certain hip-hop clubs in…Asia (trying REALLY hard not to profile people/locales here) because they were “scary” (it’s always a “friend of a friend” story and haven’t found anything concrete online) and it’s stories like these that make me angry.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 6:14 pm ¶
Miles Ellison wrote:

Sean is right. The issue is not the “right” to perform music with specific ethnic origins. There’s nothing wrong with the globalization of music. The real issue is the obscuring of the music’s roots and the exclusion of the people who created it. This is EXACTLY what happened with rock and roll.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 7:02 pm ¶
johnjihoonchang wrote:

I’m not interested in defending DT’s use of the word, but I do find it interesting to note over the seven albums, the usage of the word has essentially vanished. I remember reading an interview early on (early 2000’s) when Tiger JK (of DT) was talking about his use of the word and how it was because he was routinely called the word by African Americans “brothers” (his words) in Los Angeles, so he adopted the word himself. Not saying that it’s right, because I don’t think that the word should be used at all, but that’s his explanation.

Also, the first two DT discs are full of blatant lifts from existing American hip-hop records (the most egregious to my ears was a melodic lift from A Tribe Called Quest’s “Scenario” on their second album), but I think that’s a common thing in American hip-hop as well (referencing existing hip-hop work in new hip-hop work), so I feel it’s just part of the culture. Can it be called stealing when re-using and borrowing are part of the culture of the music-making?

Later DT work, I feel, has been more original, even after DJ Shine’s departure. Much of the Movement Crew, with whom DT is associated with, is underground (despite the occasional hit) and I think a lot of the indie/underground hip-hop in Corea is more interesting (in both lyrics and production) than the dance-pop of the YG/SM/JYP entertainment complexes. But, that doesn’t stop the pop from being fun to listen to.

@LP – Despite the fact that I don’t like the song, I find the “Lollipop” video so amusing to watch because of its colorful visual madness.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 7:10 pm ¶
Jean wrote:

like Latoya pointed out, many (I would even go as far to say most) of these artists have spent a good deal of time in the U.S., and some of them are actually Korean-American, which makes the idea of appropriation with these groups a lot more complicated.

However, a lot of these groups mentioned are more or less pop groups… they’re videos, style, and probably even lyrics are often determined by the industry. Why this style seems to be so popular I guess is another question.

On the other hand, all the more local hip hop artists I’ve met are very aware of cultural appropriation and are very engaged in defining their genre while reocognizing its roots and the issues associated with it. I also have many Korean friends who listen to American hip hop because they relate in some way to being marginalized or to the social message that many artists have to offer. It’s too bad that this type of music isn’t as highly represented in pop culture, but at the same time, it’s pretty absent from American pop culture as well. Anyways, that’s just my two cents.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 8:47 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

Cultural “ownership’(if there is such a thing) should be predicated on practice not racial descent.
Those who practice and keep a particular art form alive should have ultimate say in any conversation about “Cultural appropiation”.
Period.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 8:51 pm ¶
tck wrote:

I would love to get your take on some of the Khmer hip hop. Most of the popular artists songs are just remixes of Khmer oldies and include traditional beats, as well as direct remixs of American popular hip hop songs. relates as well to what #32 said about refugee/deportee populations

Here is an example of what I am talking about. Take popular DJ KDEP involved in projects that seem completely Khmer like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4C-KQHYc14

Or this remix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ATGrXS8vEM

Compared to his involvement in recent projects that border more on straight appropriation like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcFMK_6a0Jg

Posted 12 May 2009 at 9:26 pm ¶
Erika wrote:

Whenever I see videos where Asian rap artists are acting super thuggish it makes me feel awkward. And non-Black folk using “nigga”? That’s just Not Cool to me, no matter in what context it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD3r5C1h0gw
I found a song by a half-Korean, half-Black female artist named Tasha about the prejudice she experienced. The lyrics made me cry.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 9:31 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

@foshothoyo
Gatekeeping much? you ready to go close down all those “Chinese restaurants and Dojos in the “hood”.
Do you know where all that equipment came from that DJ’s and Producers used to make their music?
It’s attitudes like yours that serve to petrify artforms by stifling creativity and innovation.
Hip hop thrives precisely because so many others have taken up its forms.
Another thing, if anyone gets to regulate on hip hop it’s is the originators. Are we to leave ownership up to the original creators?
Most are still alive, and they are individuals, not a “race”. One should go ask them.
As far as rock? Please, black folks gave that up calling it a “white” thing and ostracized blacks who expressed themselves through rock music. The same goes for breakdancing which was seen as a fad till Puerto Ricans took it up and innovated to the max.
Graffiti has been practiced since forever and the INDIVIDUALS who created Wild Style, which is associated with hip hop, are still around as well.
Hip Hop itself is created from the detritus of other musical forms. It owes so much to non-black and non-latino artist(Kraftwerk anyone) and the originators continually point this out.

In the age of high speed information sharing, declarations of ownership are to be ridiculed.
I say, be pirates and shamans. Borrow, steal and invent whatever helps you and yours and don’t worry about the rest. There is no time to whole up on some island and hoard wealth. It would be nothing but a conceit and an empty gesture cause nothing can stop the critical mass of sharing.

Ever saw that episode of Boondocks where Huey calls Grandpa out for claiming to be apart of something when he really wasn’t?
Yeah, non-practitioners who try to lay claim to an art form on the basis of racial heritage are just playing themselves. And it goes both ways, because Bruce Lee called out those bigots who didn’t want to teach non-Chinese the Art forms.
It wasn’t protectionism, it was bigotry.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 9:39 pm ¶
elle the elephant wrote:

co-sign with coloredhoney

the issue isn’t for me and many others is does do this Korean,Japanese etc. hip-hoppers understand the reason why hip hop was born? The poverty?The violence?The drugs?The gangs? Because if they don’t than hip-hop loses all its meaning and becomes like Jazz and Rock n Roll have become, if it already hasn’t. Its the same issue I have when non-Blacks use the n-word, do they understand the history and power of that word?

Posted 12 May 2009 at 9:44 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

“Nigga”
Middle-class black folk who find this word distasteful are going to have to suck it up and real-eyes that this word,(like all others) is polysemic.
Many Black People refer to other, non-black people by this word all the time. And non-black people use it among themselves often.
Within hip-hop, it has been used so much in the lyrical forms of the genre, that it is basically a convention of the art form. I’m sure many do not know much about the history of that words usage. A curious mind should hunt down an article written some years ago by an African-American Journalist who, while traveling through Africa found a Hip Hop themed store called ‘Nigga. It saddened him but I doubt it meant the same thing for the store owners and their patrons as it did for the American.
The truth is, American Rappers have profited and benefited from peddling their art around the world and the tropes and lexicon of the streets have become intertwined with the form of Hip Hop music as a result.
However, there are many Emcee’s who use “nigga” in their lyrics who would never use it in real life.
Acknowledging this does not mean it is not a painful word for many. However, the funny thing is about words, the form may stay the same but the meaning often changes. Maybe this is a good thing.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 9:49 pm ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

omg, k-pop? here?
i saw 2ne1, and was like “waitaminnit”, and yes, the article is about korean hip-hop.

i think that there are a lot of good rappers/r&bish singers coming out of korea. however, one thing that sticks out is that a lot of these groups usually have one korean-american member (ie-born & raised in the US)….and for whatever reason, they never consult with the native speaker before putting the final OK on the lyrics.

jyp is korean-american, and has a number of connections with artists here in the US.
and if that wonder girls song is “nobody”, then i think it’s appeal to mainstream america is that it sounds familiar.
at the same time, i don’t really see them as an r&b group. they have slow songs and poppy songs, they have the one girl deligated to the “rapper” role, that all girl groups seem required to have.

within hip-hop/rap itself, in the US (and abroad) it goes from very poppy to more serious.
and in some places abroad, it’s been taken as a form of identifying with the underdog, perhaps?
and the music gives you the space to really express something.
i mean, who couldn’t be moved by tasha’s “black happiness” or “memories”?

as to cultural apropriation, i don’t know.
are we going to fine people for wearing clothing from a different culture? lock them away if they cook foreign foods or something?
no matter what you do, culture isn’t something that can be contained in a box and saved.
the best you can hope for is that the people who are borrowing do it respectfully.

as to the n-word in korean/japanese hip-hop.
i would say the americans totally know what the word means, but *some*of them might feel that it’s ok for them to say it because they are not white.
on the other hand, i think that using the n-word shows that they are creating “authentic” hip-hop.
i don’t really follow hip-hop in japan because the lyrics are crap and the beat is even worse, but the main images and words i see associated with hip-hop are:
“real” (said by every japanese rapper, on all of their tracks)
“n-word” (used to show that their rap is “real”)
baggy t-shirts, baggy jeans, and magazines that have african and black/japanese girls in little more than panties (again, to show that they are “real”. and black (african)= hip-hop, because the black/japanese girls never make it into mainstream fashion mags).

anyways, hip-hop has spread across the world, and people from different cultures are going to interpret it differently.
i wouldn’t have known that hip-hop was big in bhutan, but apparently it has a market there!

Posted 12 May 2009 at 10:24 pm ¶
superchunk12 wrote:

Forgot about my boy Rain! He was the “bad” Asian guy in Rain. He and another artist called Seven have actually worked with American Hip Hop Artists like Omarion and Jay-Z, which puts a very interesting spin on cultural appropriation and the positives and negatives of globalization. You can find Rain at YouTube, it’s worth it, boy can dance.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:47 pm ¶
superchunk12 wrote:

in the sentence “bad” Asian guy in Rain,
Rain=the recent Speed Racer movie.

Up waay past my bedtime.

Posted 12 May 2009 at 11:49 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

@elle the elephant
It seems that your holding these Asian hip hoppers to a standard that I’m sure you probably wouldn’t apply to yourself.
Do most black folks know the history of “Nigger” or Jazz and Rock?(NO!)
Is it necessary to know the history of a cultural art form or product before practice or use?
If that was the case, most of our lives would be spent doing research.
How many Yoga “practitioners” or two-day a week martial artist know the history of their arts?
How about the food we eat or clothes we wear?
My hunch is that most of us, including those critiquing these artist, appropriate cultural forms without even knowing it.
Time to critique ourselves before critiquing others.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 1:24 am ¶
Clara wrote:

Adding on to what Superchunka12 wrote, I believe JYP (the guy responsible for the Wonder Girls fame) worked with American hip hop artists as a producer. His wiki page said he worked with Will Smith and Mase. I don’t know much about Mase and I know some find the labeling of Will Smith’s music as hip hop problematic, but JYP has still contributed to the industry.

Also, Asian Americans have made contributions to hip hop as well. Jeff Chang wrote the ground breaking book Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop for example. Also, the music of Blue Scholars is grounded in community and activism, as is Magnetic North and Koba Sounds.

And I do believe that South Korean crews are very prominent in the global b-boying scene.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 2:08 am ¶
Clara wrote:

Oh yeah, and Se7en just collaborated with Lil Kim for his American debut: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT2W-SXSHMA

I’m not crazy about the song, but the pairing of musicians is still intriguing.

Boa also collaborated with African American hip hop artists for her US debut singles.

(Mods, sorry for the double post.)

Posted 13 May 2009 at 2:27 am ¶
Ric Reyes wrote:

I’m mexican and if i ever saw, say, a british guy playing mariachi music i wouldn’t even dare to say he can’t play that because “we” created this music. I love hip-hop and I aknowledge their creators but just as I’m not Alvaro Carrillo I’d bet that most of the american people that hate the fact that people from other countries use hip hop are not Herc, Flash or Bam.

This subject is weird, because I, for instance, know more about hip hop than I know about mexican music. And I bet there are koreans, mexicans, africans, etc. that have more love and respect for the art form than many of the artist that are sell-outs but they look “legit” because they are from America.

I think it’s unfair (though understandable) for americans to get angry because we take what “they” created but it’s unfair that most of them won’t pay attention to what “we” are creating, hip hop or not.

I’ve got this story: years ago I heard an instrumental song sampling an older song on the internet, I have no idea who made it or if they’re black or american. Later I posted on an american hip hop forum a song by a mexican rapper. Someone said the mexican rapper sucked because an american artist had already used the sample. I listened to the american artist’s song and found out it came two years earlier than the mexican rapper’s song, but two years later than the song I first heard on the internet. No big deal for me anyway ’cause it was a sample in the first place. Like american rappers sucked because they use and already-used sample, right?. But the guy that posted that the mexican rapper sucked also implied that the rapper might also be copying the american rapper’s lyrics (even if the guy who posted wouldn’t know since he stated he didn’t know spanish) Now if you know both spanish and english tell me how easy would it be to translate a rap song from one language to another and make it rhyme.

So it’s kind of wack that the world should listen to America but America won’t listen to the world (not just in hip hop). Rock artists that come from anywhere in the world are rock artists but somehow you’re not a real rapper if you don’t come from America. But at the same time American rappers can sample music from wherever they want! Like back when it was wrong to be a white rapper but it wasn’t wrong to be a black rapper over a sample from a song from a white artist.

About the gangsta thing or the N-word usage: I dislike it but I wouldn’t blame it on the people from other countries since mostly that’s what they’re sold that hip hop is. The american artists’ albums most of the time don’t put a context on these things so foreign listeners just get from it whatever they can understand. The guys it’s coming from are succesful worldwide artists so how could it be that wrong? And of course if they don’t get it right it comes back to american eyes as a bad caricature but let me tell you, the mirror is a little warped but it doesn’t lie. Gangsta rappers are mostly caricatures that should dissappear.

I miss the days when hip hop songs were about life and not just about hip hop, now most songs are about how the mc rocks, how other mc’s are fake and how hip hop this and that. I loved those days when hip hop songs were like a friend talking to you about life and I could relate a lot to what these kids that lived in a distant part of the world were feeling.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 2:39 am ¶
luckyfatima wrote:

I don’t think anyone owns hip hop…American cultural trends penetrate everywhere because the power dynamic involved in globalization, so if hip hop is popular in the US, it will be popular in other countries and we will see it adapted into local musical styles as well. I agree though that it is frustrating to see people affecting styles that are typically associated with black American hip hop culture, when the group doing the appropriation is happily lapping up the music but holds quite racist attitudes towards black Americans and people of African decent in their own countries.

Where I live in the Gulf, there are several different groups of local people who have heavily African heritage, they are the decendents of slaves brought directly to the Gulf, immigrants from East Africa who have some ancestry and were given local nationality at unification time, and immigrants from Balochistan who are the decendents of African slaves brought there by Omanis who ruled that region for some time… Anyway…these groups are stigmatized locally and their blackness is a part of their stigmatization. Interestingly, you see young guys of these backgrounds very heavily into black American hip hop culture and even some sort of commercialized Rastafarian culture. They actually get a lot of empowerment from appropriating this widely loved foreign black American culture, somehow it uplifts their black identity since hip hop is associated with blackness and they are black even though their own culture is world’s apart from American culture. Since there is underlying racism in the American context of “black hip hop culture manufactured for the masses=hip, trendy, cool” it is just interesting to see how that plays out far away from America.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 3:16 am ¶
luckyfatima wrote:

oops, I re-read this, this one line should say:

“immigrants from East Africa who have some mixed Arab ancestry and were given local nationality at unification time”

They are locally known as Zanzibaris.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 3:18 am ¶
Nan wrote:

Isn’t there an American enka singer named Jero? Isn’t enka style music identified with Japan? I could say that enka is “not really” Japanese originated so that I could market Jero to a more mainstream audience. Pretty soon, people who know nothing of enka, and it’s cultural origins, will believe that Jero created enka…I’m pretty sure that would piss alot of people off.

Noone is saying that hip hop can’t be emulated, and appreciated, but, its roots need to be recognized. To me, West Africa is the mother of hip hop, and America is the father via BLACK descended people and their experiences.

Anyway you slice it, it is, and always will be, a creation of black descended peoples in the Americas. African American, Brasilian, Puerto Rican, Cuban, West Indian, Haitian, Panamanian. All have HEAVY West African influence expressed in their food, music, religion, art, and just general culture.

@ eccentricyoruba: I looooove kwaito!!! Do you like Zola?

@Arabi…YES alot black folks know the history of nigger, jazz, and rock. I grew up in a “ghetto” environment, and knowledge of these things were passed down to me via elders. How stupid do you think we(black people)are? Why does it even matter if these things are widely known amonst black folks or not?
So just because some people may not learn every single minutia about their own culture means that someone else has the right to hijack it, and obscure its origins?

I’ve known people in the “‘established” cultures, who have not even known the basics of their own cultural upbringings, but noone is attempting to take their history from them.

So why is it ok for the little bit of cultural history we have, to be taken and distorted, and I’m supposed to feel that somehow I and my fellow black people deserve that? Please answer the question.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 6:28 am ¶
MelMel wrote:

I like how the last video tortures some kid with its own music.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 7:55 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

I’m going to (hesitantly) re-enter this discussion and address what may be at the painful heart of discussion about appropriation of Black culture in general and Black American culture in particular.

A number of posters have brought up the past globalization and appropriation of the blues, jazz (swing, big band and improv – with the latter’s raison d’être resting on the earlier appropriation of the former), and rock-and-roll as examples of what could happen – or may be already happening – to hip-hop. Appropriation of (Black) “subculture” as a means of reinvigorating and reifying dominant (White) culture is not new. The methodology employed has not changed in decades:

1.) Subculture creates a new form of art

2.)Dominant culture first observes, then dismisses the new art form

3.) Subculture’s new art form persists and is enjoyed and created almost exclusively by members of subculture

4.)Dominant culture responds positively to the subculture art form as presented by some members of dominant culture

5.)Value of original subculture art form is subsequently confirmed as “authentic” and a valid form of cultural expression by dominant culture

6.)The subculture art form is honored as an authentic but no longer relevant originator

7.) Now properly divorced from its roots, the new dominant culture hybrid is packaged, commodified and enjoyed globally

The most irritating and arguably most damaging aspect of Black cultural appropriation is this: until mainstream (White) culture recognizes what Black folks create, it is deemed worthless; and when mainstream culture GRUDGINGLY acknowledges that Black culture has contributed something unique, and valuable, and authentic, and singular and worthy, we can no longer claim it as our own. Suddenly, it belongs to “everybody.” Dominant culture’s position as the final arbitrer of what is creatively valuable remains unchallenged. Last but not least, so the hegemonic structure is not disturbed, the subculture that created the art fom is still viewed as inferior to the dominant culture in every imaginable way.

If Black folks seem a little up-in-arms about hip-hop slipping away, well… it’s understandable.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:13 am ¶
Jolivette wrote:

Does Hip-Hop ignore history and historical context? Whether Jamaican, Asian, Hatian etc. this artform is informed by and rooted in the history of oppressed people in the U.S. and it is a response to that oppression by generations who refused to handle or respond to their oppression the same way their parents and grandparents did. If one identifies as Jamaican and you Black and in the U.S. then you have become a part of the African American struggle because it was Black folks who took it to the streets to change this society (yes there were other folks but let’s stay focused here). Once Black folks start talking to each other in the absence of others is when I become Black American and you become Jamican-American and the competition ensues.

The cultural code in this country dictates that we still look to everything white as the ‘norm’ or the ‘right’ way to be, no matter how many songs, raps and poems we write. Until the real work of changing the culture that oppresses through subtle images that tell us we are ‘less than’ because we have color in our skin Hip Hop simply is what it is… a tool to get to where we need to be… a place and sense of being called Human.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:35 am ¶
Kepler wrote:

I finally manage to get to the bottom of all the comments (enjoying the great insight I’ve come to expect from Racialicious) and I keep hearing a common thread: Others (non-Americans) don’t know the history of hip-hop and fail to show the reverence it demands, but we do. Maybe it’s just me but I’m not convinced hip-hop has the vaulted esteem amongst Americans as we like to think.

A couple of years ago, I worked with several young African-Americans (late teens to early twenties) who coincidentally were all interested in entering the music biz. They were very dedicated to this career decision. They had released EPs, performed in concerts all over the state (Texas) and made an occasional trip outside, had been on the radio a few times, had their own record label and studio; they were fully committed to this dream. One even moved to LA to attend a college geared towards entering the music biz (something considered monumental as most people from his community didn’t/don’t leave Texas). When I asked why they did this, they all (despite their different backgrounds, interests and talents) said the same thing: Money.

Hip-hop/Rap pays big bucks, that’s nothing new. People gravitating towards hip-hop as a means of earning an income, whether they are the quintessential black American urban youth or from the opposite side of the world (figuratively or literally), are pursuing it because it pays extremely well. Granted there are people who are in it for the love of the music and are in touch with the history and show it due respect, they are far few, and are rarely heard about at the mass level. And thus, if you turn on your TV, turn off the sound and play a variety of hip-hop songs from around the globe, you wouldn’t be able to truly differentiate between what is ‘authetic american’ and what is an ‘imposter’. They look the same, sound the same and are crafted from the same dwindling pool of ideas, because that is the formula that works (with minor variations).

I just recently moved to Kenya, and trust me, while channel surfing through music video channels, it can be a bit of a challenge to figure out which song is American and which is African (not trying to diminish the rich diveristy of the continent, but my exposure to African hip-hop so far is primarily Kenyan and Tanzanian and maybe a sprinkle of Ugandan), if you are judging solely on the cinematography (though I doubt Americans are chanting “piga makofi”).

So I guess my take on this is that the ‘authetic hip-hop’ that many people on this thread are holding onto is quietly being ignored. That hip-hop wasn’t a fad, it just is fading into the distance.

NB: Hip-hop is also viewed as being cool, but I suspect it’s because it pays so well. The videos show people in glamorous clothes and settings surrounded by expensive material goods. With that approach, even polka bands would be the sh**!!!

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:45 am ¶
Kepler wrote:

P.S. Huzzah for Latoya getting the cultural appropriation series together!

I can’t wait for the next installment!

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:47 am ¶
deb wrote:

And I do believe that South Korean crews are very prominent in the global b-boying scene.

Good call, Clara. Anyone interested should check out the documentary “Planet B-Boy.”

And speaking of appropriation, has anyone seen the Japanese double-dutch teams?

I went to the annual double dutch tournament at the Apollo Theatre many years ago. I was rooting for the Japanese team. Okay, revoke my Black card. :/

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:49 am ¶
deb wrote:

Isn’t there an American enka singer named Jero? Isn’t enka style music identified with Japan?

Good call, Nan. I was gonna mention Jero in my first response.

I work in a very international setting. When I realized that I didn’t have a lot of international music in my collection I went in search of it. That’s when I became familiar with K-pop, and as eccentricyoruba mentioned above, Kwaito just name a couple of international genres.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:55 am ¶
CVT wrote:

Let’s be clear here: other cultures performing hip-hop (no matter the level) IS cultural appropriation. But it’s not bad in every case.

Eccentricyouruba hit it – in a lot of countries, hip hop’s appeal comes from its status as “music for the oppressed.” When that’s the case, how could you possibly say it’s a negative thing?

Of course, it’s not always like that, but let’s not focus on the Asian folks before we acknowledge that what 2NE1 et al. are doing is the same bastardized version that’s been in the States for the last 15 years or so. So, is it still “their bad” when what they’re appropriating was ALREADY appropriated (”appropriation twice removed”)? It gets tricky.

And if we’re going to talk about the international hip-hop culture, can you please mention the b-boy scene? Because I’d say what the Koreans (and Japanese) have been doing in that arena can’t be called negative appropriation, considering how far they’ve pushed that element in the last decade. If it wasn’t for Asian appropriation of b-boying, it may very well have “died” by now . . .

Posted 13 May 2009 at 10:04 am ¶
CVT wrote:

@Arabi -
“Practitioners” of yoga and martial arts who don’t know the history are MOST DEFINITELY appropriating it. If you’re not even aware enough to honor those who came before you (whether it be in cooking, music, or physical arts), then that’s a negative thing, and that’s when folks get – deservedly – pissed off.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 10:13 am ¶
Sean wrote:

Nan, you hit the nail on the proverbial head with the enka analogy. What you are describing is nothing short of re-writing history.

Of course culture can’t be confined, and it’s a silly notion to propose levying fines against practitioners ‘not of the tribe’ so-to-speak. Yet again, when the ethnic origins of a cultural artform are marginalized to the point of being an historical footnote (compounded with that pesky issue of ‘loving the culture while hating the people’ …a subject worthy of a thread all it’s own) then understandably some people will get irritated with the situation.

I am a black man who is WELL-AWARE of the histories of blues, jazz, rock, etc. (Paul Whiteman was the Elvis of his day… he was coronated ‘The King of Jazz’) It’s more than a little ironic that when these types of music were first issued on vinyl, they were labeled as “Race records.” Today, “I have a right to sing the blues” is a knee-jerk response to the appropriation question.

Blues musician Adam Gussow wrote a fascinating article about the appropriation question. Given what’s happening with hip-hop, I got a sense of deja-vu reading this. Worth a read.

http://www.thirstyearfestival.com/features/blues.html

Posted 13 May 2009 at 10:30 am ¶
Ebony wrote:

deb wrote:

“Tasha (Yoon Mi Rae) sings in Korean. Does she get a pass because she’s Korean and African American?”

@deb:

I suppose so! She’s also regarded as the most influential woman in Korean rap, which is interesting considering she’s not even Korean born and also under 30, which I think speaks volumes about the status of women in K-hop (her flow is tight, though).

She’s also the wife of Tiger JK. Wonder how she feels about his use of “nigga”….

Posted 13 May 2009 at 10:58 am ¶
Ebony wrote:

@Nan:

Regarding Jero, I see what you mean, however most K-hop is done in the Korean language, whereas Jero performs enka only in Japanese and is popular only in Japan.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 11:02 am ¶
Miss Girl wrote:

I wonder what the “n” word will mean in 20-50 years?

Does it just all boil down then to education, recognition, and respect?

I’m really conflicted on this issue.

I think everybody interested in profiting financially, spiritually, or musically from hip hop should learn about its history – and that should be the ideal for any genre or subgenre of music.

But some of the rhetoric (ownership, purity vs. distortion, motherland, etc.) here bothers me – are some specific groups of people going to have to start filling out permission slips? To whom?

And what about the factor of class? Does an African-American person from an upper-middle class neighborhood have more a stake in hip hop than a *fill-in-the-blank* American from a poor neighborhood?

Posted 13 May 2009 at 11:07 am ¶
fuzzylogic wrote:

a friend of mine was on a fellowship and travelled around Korea to study how “Korean hip-hop” looked like. Although the Korean diaspora in the U.S. and global capitalism has a lot to do with how forms of black culture circulate around the globe Korea today, his research showed that the u.s. military or rather the evil empire was also a major source of their knowledge about black culture and black people. That is, as far back as the 50s during the Korean War and during the Vietnam War, black service men brought jazz and funk to Korea, which was later picked up by the locals as they gradually created clubs that catered strictly for U.S. military. so, i think its hard to abstract cultural appropriation as “stealing” when the often undiscussed form of globalization, U.S. colonialism, has a lot to do with it. hence, there are small pockets of korean funk communities…

On another note, I worry about the discourse about “owning” hip-hop because it merely follows the rhetoric that capitalism is the key to liberation. i.e. your taking my money. We talk about non-black “theft” only in terms of money “lost” by black artists. I mean, there’s obviously a lot of historical and contemporary reasons why this is a big concern, but the idea of ‘ownership’ seems to stop at the level of capitalism and who’s historical “right” to profit as opposed to “why does hip-hop matter to people” as a form of identity formation, social justice politics, racial politics, gender, etc. Why hip-hop is picked up, in my opinion, and for what reasons, is what makes “cultural appropriation” interesting because it tells us a lot about what society thinks about itself and then how to approach that issues more strategically.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 11:46 am ¶
foshothoyo wrote:

Wow. Arabi is talking some crazy mess right now.

@ Arabi: please. we’re not talking about intellectual property rights, we’re talking about credit and heritage. What the F are you thinking? Do you even KNOW black history?

your arguments make zero sense.

1. it doesn’t matter where the electronics are made, it has no bearing on the music produced with those electronics. If a Korean makes a beat on an apple, does that make it an American song? GTFO.

2. “Get rid of the dojos and chinese restaurants in the ‘hood’” What? There is such a thing as lineage in “dojos” (as if it’s all karate) where even the masters respect the handing down of knowledge and technique. You think any of these little poplets know jack about the history of the music their songwriters are appropriating? Also, if an Ethiopian restaurant opens in the middle of Shanghai, what the hell does that have to do with hip-hop? GTFO.

3. My favorite: “The truth is, American Rappers have profited and benefited from peddling their art around the world and the tropes and lexicon of the streets have become intertwined with the form of Hip Hop music as a result.”

Wow. The truth is, most american rappers are broke right now. They got played out by white CEOs and record companies, which has been happening since white people stole the blues and called it rock. How the hell has the black community benefited from a cacophony of slurs, stereotypes, and dumbed-down drivel? Don’t you even know how the record industry works? Does the word Blacksploitation mean anything to you? When you know your history, then we can talk about the trifling, pseudo-intellectual attempts of uninformed and overconfident blowhards to justify their own misguided assumptions. Tropes of the street? Really? GTFO.

Oh, and to state the obvious, everybody knows where every martial art originated from, just like everybody knows where hip-hop came from. Kraftwerk never lived in the South Bronx, and as far as i know, never put out a hip-hop album.

This isn’t about ownership, it’s about respect, which from the words “detritus” and “peddling” you use in reference to rap and rappers, you obviously don’t have for the originators and innovators. If you even read past the first three lines of my post, you would have understood my argument, which is that “original” hip hop was appropriated by white executives, which was then disseminated to the world, and appropriated again by these hip-pop lip-synchers. Not to say there isn’t an army of artists who know what’s really good, but they usually get drowned out by this mass-produced garbage. (but i digress)

You can’t separate hip-hop from black people just like you can’t separate wushu from the ancient chinese. Your mother will always be your mother, and anybody who says otherwise is a fool. Anything after that is whatever…sure, steal, remix, “be a shaman” (whatever that means), but you have to pay your respects if you want to be respected in the art form. Indeed, you probably can’t make good hip-hop if you don’t.

How does that tickle your idiolect?

Posted 13 May 2009 at 11:48 am ¶
eccentricyoruba wrote:

@Nan it is nice to see another person that likes kwaito. I love Zola! I listen to Mafikizolo, Bongo Maffin and 2 by 2 as well.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 1:10 pm ¶
Clara wrote:

Also, Jero is one quarter Japanese. I saw a youtube video somewhere that said he grew up singing Enka with his Japanese grandmother. Singing Enka was his grandmother’s way of retaining her Japanese culture in America. Jero speaks Japanese fluently, as does his half black half Japanese mother.

If you watch Jero’s music videos and performances, though, he infuses it with hip hop elements, such as some hip hop dance, fashion, and grafitti. He has stated that he deliberately mixes in hip hop with enka in order to make it more appealing and fresh to Japanese youth, who mostly perceive Enka as old-fashioned and boring.

Here’s a link to his “Umiyuki” music video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqZElmsmhM

I’ve always been a little confused about what sort of cultural appropriation is happening here. He’s inserting hip hop into a completely different genre. Is he appropriating hip hop? But he is 3/4 black, and I expect he has more “claim” to hip hop than Enka. But he clearly is well versed in enka and appreciates it. He is 1/4 Japanese, so he can “claim” Enka as well. Is it problematic that he’s basically using hip hop as a way to freshen up another industry? But, by doing so, he’s changing Enka into a different sort of animal. Is this change a bad thing if it revives the industry and makes it popular with a different demographic (youth), or is it another form of mainstream comodification?

(Mods, I hope this comment isn’t inappropriate)

Posted 13 May 2009 at 2:11 pm ¶
DanL wrote:

I don’t have much to add to the comment, just wanted to say two things:

1) I’m way excited for this series, been waiting a while for it.

2) These threads look like they’ll be putting out a ton of new music styles and artists I have never heard of before. I might just be slightly more excited about this part.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 2:39 pm ¶
Steve wrote:

Is the rule:

(1) performers who are unaware of the history and cultural significance of the musical styles they are performing are misappropriating that style.

or is it

(2) performers who are unaware of the history and cultural significance of the musical styles they are performing are misappropriating that style; provided however that if such performer is from the ethnic group that originated that style by definition that performer can not be misappropriating.

I think even though it sounds weird, its #2 right? Because how can an African American misappropriate African American music?

Posted 13 May 2009 at 3:08 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

Fiqua #59

You could write a book there: “How To Separate An Ethnic Group From It’s Culture And Claim It -In Seven, Easy Steps.”

I really don’t see anyone here arguing about what’s “authentic” hip-hop, vs what’s not. And no one is petitioning a movement to sign a permission form to use a racial group’s culture. I think the fact that these Japanese and Korean artists are expressing themselves with these creative hybrids are a great thing.

However, like foshothoyo said, this ain’t about intellectual property rights. Basically, we’re trying to figure out why is it that when we as Black people/African Americans claim our heritage, we’re dismissed as not “owning a culture.” (ironically, a culture that we created out of necessity, since we were stripped of our original one)

Yet somehow, not only is it that a few Steven Segal movies aren’t making anyone forget that martial arts originated in Eastern Asia, Mr. Segal doesn’t feel an apparent need to say “No one owns martial arts.”

But when it comes to Black cultural artforms, sheesh….

Posted 13 May 2009 at 3:19 pm ¶
Theora wrote:

What about Afrika Bambaataa and his Universal Zulu Nation? Should he be denounced as some sort of race traitor for being the one man most responsible for spreading hip-hop culture outside of the US back in the day?

Posted 13 May 2009 at 3:23 pm ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Sean: Work to be subtitled “If you can make it, we can take it!” ::: sad head shake :::

Related tangent: I’m disturbed by how closely the cultural appropriation of Black art forms mimics slavery’s Black-labor-for-White-benefit model.

Prolly just me, though.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 4:04 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

Fiqah, Sean (nice list/link)

~at the end of the day many people -who may love our music – don’t see us as a REAL people. As a culture, or even an emerging ethnic group.

We are still just [descendents of] SLAVES. In their eyes, we don’t have a land/language/dress.

You can’t take something from nothing right?

Posted 13 May 2009 at 4:22 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

Clara:

I don’t think Jero is appropriating or trying to “freshen up” ANYTHING. I think he’s being true to who he is and his roots. He shouldn’t be forced to play the “pick a genre” game because both of them are equally important.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 4:32 pm ¶
Ric Reyes wrote:

I’d say that today Hip hop is more worlwide recognised as music originated by black people than rock or jazz ever were. I don’t think that you can be a fan of korean hip hop or whatever and deny that it comes from american hip-hop. I don’t think that anyone making hip hop anywhere in the world can dettach their stuff from the black originators of this music.

I said I understand that black people can feel alienated from something they created, but at the same time, did “they” create it? How many hip hop songs ore dance moves have you as individuals created? And all this music and stuff that’s been created worldwide, isn’t it also unfair that it might not be considered as part of “the culture” as much as they might be bringing to the table?

As I said before, this subject is weird, because we could think too that, well, to stop this maybe people of every country that’s not America should not even be listening to hip hop.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 4:43 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

Fiqah wrote:
Related tangent: I’m disturbed by how closely the cultural appropriation of Black art forms mimics slavery’s Black-labor-for-White-benefit model.

Prolly just me, though.

Actually, it’s not just you, Fiqah. I’ve long considered that same angle. The parallels ARE uncanny.

gatamala wrote:

You can’t take something from nothing right?

Wow! You may have just neatly summarized the “y’all don’t own anything” attitude in one sentence!

I want to re-iterate again, it’s awesome that artists like these from around the world have taken hip-hop into their hearts, and made their own thing out of it. I wholeheartedly support this type of cultural exchange.

However, I don’t think there’s a large-scale effort to marginalize, gloss over, and deny the legacy of White Americans because Darius Rucker’s country cd is hot.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 5:07 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

Ric Reyes wrote:

I’d say that today Hip hop is more worlwide recognised as music originated by black people than rock or jazz ever were. I don’t think that you can be a fan of korean hip hop or whatever and deny that it comes from american hip-hop. I don’t think that anyone making hip hop anywhere in the world can dettach their stuff from the black originators of this music.

Ric, that’s true, but at this point we’re still early in the transition stage. God sparing my life, I’d like to be around to attend a Hip-Hop Heritage Festival in about 30 years.

Dollars to donuts the majority of the artists and audience will be overwhelmingly white, with, say, Snoop Dogg as the benevolent old legend. He will come out on stage last, and thank these new artists who are keeping the music alive… or “keepin’ it real” as it were.

And what of the young black kids? History being an indicator, hip-hop will be either their grandparents music, or they will think that it’s music by and for white people and they will have no idea that it’s music of their cultural heritage. Likely they will be grooving among themselves to something new they created, and no one outside of them will know about it.

The big wheel keeps turning…

Posted 13 May 2009 at 5:26 pm ¶
johnjihoonchang wrote:

This is an interesting discussion, but being a child of an immigrant puts me in an interesting position when it comes to the idea of cultural ownership. After all, I am the son of two Corean natives who moved to the United States. I was born here and lived here my entire life. Does that mean that I own American culture? Does it mean that I cannot own Corean culture because I didn’t grow up there? Or is my ownership of my Corean culture predicated by the fact that I have Corea blood? Does that even make any sense?

We also need to recognize that culture doesn’t exist in a bubble. Nor is it anything specific–because what’s defined “culture” morphs and changes. Tomatoes, for example, are a significant part of cuisines all around the world, but it was originally a part of the culinary culture of the Mesoamerican people groups. Is the usage and adaptation of tomatoes in culinary cuisine, an act of appropriating a cultural element? I know it’s a discreet and concrete thing, but its usage as a cooking ingredient started with Mesoamericans. That might not seem like a big deal, because it’s just a tomato, but people question the cultural appropriation of cuisine.

Or look at the development of cinema. Many of the nations in the world have their own cinematic history now, but the primary style of cinema that people create is the kind that is fully adoptive of Hollywood style. Cinema cultures all around the world have created some alternatives, but the bulk of creation is mostly of the type that emulates the style originated by white Americans. You can’t argue that it’s not a cultural style, because if you look at early usage of film in some cultures, before being exposed to Hollywood-style film, it was very different.

At the same time, you can definitely say that while the Japanese use Hollywood-style editing and lensing techniques, it’s hard to argue that their cinema is not their own. When the Italians made Westerns set in the American West, was it cultural appropriation? Was it adoption? I don’t know if I have the answer.

Every cultural aspect has a birthplace, but I feel like I’m of the position that the true owners of the culture are the authentic practitioners, for better or for worse. When it comes to hip-hop, it is undeniably a type of music originated by Black Americans. I would have a problem with anyone that denied or didn’t respect the roots of the music. At the same time, I also feel that if a kid in Laos connects with the beats and lyrics of Public Enemy, listens to De La Soul fervently and spits rhymes like old-school LL Cool J, he is a part of hip hop.

When Eminem first came onto the scene, I had a problem with him, because I thought he was entirely a poser (that and I despised his often homophobic and misogynist lyrics). But despite my problems with his message, he seemed to be acutely aware of his position as a white man practicing a form of art originated by Black Americans. In his song “White America” he throws the mirror on the racism that causes tons of suburban white American youths to buy his albums, but not those of his peers. In one of his acceptance speeches for, I think an MTV award or something silly like that, he takes the time to point back at all the (predominantly Black) artists that inspired him to create the music that he does. I don’t have to like Eminem or his music, but is he, a white American, an authentic part of hip hop? I would have a problem saying that he isn’t. For better or worse.

I worked a little bit with urban youths when I lived in Boston. While the youths I spent the most time with were predominantly Black Americans (with half of them being children of immigrants), there were a substantial amount of white Americans that were part of their social circles. Say what you will about race in Boston (and it IS intense at times), these kids got along. Almost all of the kids, black and white together, were adepts of the hip hop culture. Several of them were amateur emcees, two black youths and one white youth. They grew up in the same subculture, same neighborhood and were friends and compatriots. Do the black youths automatically own hip hop culture and is the white kid, despite growing up in the same environment with the same peers and the same overall culture, still a non-owner? Is he not a part of hip-hop? He’s not denying it’s roots, that’s for certain.

I think about it this way: if a black youth, who grew up in the suburbs and had only before casually listened to hip-hop, but was bright enough to create music that perfectly emulated mainstream (or even non-mainstream) hip-hop and came out as a hip-hop artist after graduating from a prestigious university, would he be an owner of hip-hop? If, yes, is it because he’s black? Or is it because he practices the culture? If no, it is because he wasn’t authentically a part of the culture before? Is it because his entitlement as a suburban college graduate?

In some ways, I have to see culture as something that’s not exactly fixed, like a person’s personality. Some of it is influenced by circumstance, but it can also be influenced by choice. I consider myself an owner of Corean culture, because I choose to practice aspects of it, but I could easily choose not to. At the very start, I had an initial connection to it from my parents, but I frequently chose not to practice it, practicing predominantly mainstream American culture instead. Some, I know, choose predominantly mainstream culture and, yes, despite that they are not white Americans, they own the culture as much as any white American.

If a white child of American parents grew up entirely in Corea, would I say that he or she is culturally appropriating Corean culture? What about the thousands of Chinese youth that grow up in Corean culture? There is a power dynamic there, yes, since the Chinese are often oppressed minorities in a mainstream Corean culture, but is the (also minority) white child any less an owner of the culture s/he grew up in? It’s not like s/he’s going to deny that it’s Corean culture, but if s/he feels more Corean than American due to her/his choice to be a part of the society around her/him, despite the existence of an alternative, is she denied ownership strictly on the basis of blood?

While a lot of Latoya’s examples from above are examples of mainstream Corean entertainment’s adoption of hip-hop music, there are plenty of creators of Corean hip-hop out there that aren’t part of the machine. But even if you’re a part of the machine, if you truly love hip-hop and practice it, doesn’t that still make you a part of it, for better or worse?

I think we do need to clarify what we mean by “cultural appropriation”, because the phrase itself assumes taking of what belongs, but does culture actually “belong” to anyone? I’m not arguing that we ought not respect the originators of a cultural form, but I think that the Beatles owned rock music as much as Jimi Hendrix did, both owing genre originators like Chuck Berry for creating the music they loved. And yes, a lot of the music does go back to West Africa, but I’m also not going to downplay black American’s contributions to take those roots and create new forms out of it, from doo wop, to blues, to rock and yes, to hip hop. Nor am I going to ignore that prominent musical instruments in blues and rock are Indoeuropean in origin (guitar, bass). Blues and rock didn’t just automatically appear in a bubble isolated from European influence and while American culture wasn’t chosen by black slaves, it was a part of them. But, it was how they played these Indoeuropean instruments that made it blues and rock and roll, yes? If you listen to hip hop from elsewhere, they are making the form their own too. Corean b-boy groups develop their styles differently than French b-boy groups, also differently than their American peers, who originated the form.

Okay, I wrote too much. I guess I’ll conclude by saying that before we can even discuss whether something is or isn’t cultural appropriate, we should work to come to an understanding of whether culture can be owned and who is entitled to ownership, and even more importantly, why they can own the culture. Because without building consensus on these questions, I don’t know if we can get build consensus on the actual matter of whether or not someone is appropriating anything. We might as just be yelling at each other with our ears plugged.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 7:18 pm ¶
johnjihoonchang wrote:

*last paragraph–”cultural appropriate” ought to be “cultural appropriation”, but you probably knew that.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 7:19 pm ¶
Nan wrote:

@Sean and Fiqah:

Thanks for seeing my point^^. I have absolutely no problem with people from other cultures doing forms of hip hop music. I don’t care about who is getting paid x amount for hip hop. I only want for people to recognize and RESPECT its origins. I dislike the fact that an Asian, white, and or Indian, etc. person can lay historic claim to aspects of their cultures, but if we do the same, we are questioned, and made to feel silly. Or worse we’re accused of being angry afrocentrists attempting to rewrite history in our favor.

And don’t give me the ”we’re all one world and one culture” bs because if that were so, this blog wouldn’t exist.
There are ENTIRE libraries, and museums dedicated to preserving the histories of various cultures, and make no mistake about it, in this world, ”who made what” MATTERS…though it shouldn’t.

@eccentricyoruba , try Dlozi Lami by Mzambiya, and I’m gonna try 2 by 2!!^_^

Posted 13 May 2009 at 7:40 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

@foshothoyo
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that your not heavily involved in any Hip Hop scene. if you were you’d know the only criteria for respect is SKILLS(which is why Eminem is beloved even in the hood’) No one is giving out history tests at MC battles the last time I checked.
Heritage, F-Heritage. Probably the singular concept that gets more folks killed than anything else. “Lets hold on this land, turf, etc. because we have blood rights to it and all others are illegitimate” Please, you don’t have a right to anything simply due to BLOOD except for perhaps your mothers love.
And if it really was about heritage, than why base it on Race. How bout geography. Than only folks from uptown and South Bronx would have “claims” to hip hop. (Or New Yorkers, Or Americans, depending on where you want to put your boundaries. However, just because the creators were “black” doesn’t make it a black art form. Black artists have been fighting the racial marker for decades yet black folks are the first to slap it on somebody so we can take credit for something we didn’t have nothing to with. And blacks are not the only ones guilty of this by no means.)

“it has no bearing on the music produced with those electronics”
Right, cause it would be no difference if he was scratching on porcelain plates. You GTFO!
You dismiss the instruments of an artform as insignificant. Maybe you need a lesson.
The instruments shape the artform and determine it’s direction. And just as there is a distinction between good mc’s and bad mc’s there is a awareness of good equipment(Technics, Adidas, SP-12’s) vs. not so good( Gemini)
And the Dojos, (Shoosh, you missed the point) If a dojo is in the Black Neighborhood’ who do you think is going to there practising. Probably not too many Asians. And if Kung Fu, Karate, Hapkido, etc. are Asian cultural forms(This is a ridiculous notion as well), than would African-Americans practicing the art a form of Appropriation(by the definition being tossed about on this board anyway) Who said that it’s necessary to know the history of a particular martial art in order to practice. And most of those histories are myths anyway, just like there is a myth surrounding the origins of hip hop (Oppressed inner-city youth resisting the man by throwing a myriad of sounds on turntables and pumping up the ground with clever rhymes.
Through in the rebellious graffiti artists and acrobatic b-boys and you got a great legend that re-inforces )
“They got played out by white CEOs and record companies, which has been happening since white people stole the blues and called it rock. How the hell has the black community benefited from a cacophony of slurs, stereotypes, and dumbed-down drivel?”

How does this contradict what I said? I guess you missed the Ludacris concert in Japan.
And btw, cry me a river, all artist get shafted by those with more business sense than them.
As do inventors, designers, thinkers, etc.. The creative/intellectual class is always going to be a few steps behind the merchants.
But you missed a crucial detail. In the climate of capitalism, early Hip Hop artists were quick to find ways to profit off the art once they figured out that other folks were listening besides the kids down the block.
All these notions of “origins” and “true hip hop” are part of the myth. Tell me, what does real hip hop look/sound like and when/where did it begin? Do that and we can begin to have a real dialogue.

@Nan
Hijack! people hijack planes. How do you hijack “culture”. Tell me what culture is first, than we can talk about hijacking.
The fact is, your mind set is so stuck in a modernist capitalist orientation you think everything is an object that can be “owned”. Reflect on that.
CVT: Other cultures! People are “cultures” now. Explain that.
Hip Hop is the invention of a journalist an outsider just like all cultures are inventions of outsiders. The pioneers were throwing records on tables(made in Asia) to entertain crowds nad had not intention of creating a “sub-culture” called hip hop.
Only in the age of Western Anthropology do people talk about “culture”. It’s a unit of measure for social scientist and even they can’t wrap their hands around it. Know the roots of your own intellectual heritage and how it affects the way you perceive the world.
Of course, when it comes to culture, why do we always set “race” as the primary and most significant arbitrator, especially since is always referred to as a construct?
@Fiqah
“when mainstream culture GRUDGINGLY acknowledges that Black culture has contributed something unique, and valuable, and authentic, and singular and worthy, we can no longer claim it as our own”
Upon reflection you may realize that once something because dominant and popular it’s roots are forgotten and it becomes UNIVERSALIZED.
Do you think white folks should be claiming computers, jeans, sneakers, the internet, etc.
or are these collectively owned in the social consciousness? If we think about our own “culture” you’ll realize that some things have origins and others have origins as well but they are just “forgotten”. And hip hop is not different, especially considering that it was a commodity (like money, the origins of commodities are rarely “remembered”) from the get go.

Man so much to discuss with so many folks.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 9:11 pm ¶
grace wrote:

Okay, I don’t exactly know what this will add to the conversation, but some Korean singers who use the N word do so in a context where the Korean word “니가” (pronounced Ni-ga, meaning ‘you are’) would also make sense. I’ve had instances since back in the day where I would be listening to a song and do a “woah, did they really say that” and the lyrics book in the CD would have the Korean world “니가”.

Posted 13 May 2009 at 10:12 pm ¶
coloredhoney wrote:

i watched the videos posted in the discussion and feel like whether they can be construed as cultural appropriation, homage, korean and japanese specific hip hop steez, urban pop style cultural rebuttals, these artists’ are affected by a rabid culture of american globalization that obscures an authentic possibilities of international hip hop creativity. i mean damn, these young korean and japanese artists are clearly in the infamous words of 50 cent trying to get money. i think it is always easier in a society that accepts as reality, racism and sexism and enacts an oppressive hierarchical power to uphold such detritus to watch artists who dig up the roots of black and brown yet are brighter and bouncier in complexion and mannerisms. it’s an odd social design, but it continuously finds success.

i just want any of these groups or folks making comments in defense and artistic legitimacy of the word nigger to come to my block and begin a discussion. i would be curious as to the result of the conversation. i do not under estimate the capability of open mindedness inherent in all peoples. i live in an area of brooklyn where hip hop abounds in public spaces and many young black and brown are bored, unemployed and at risk to the criminal justice system of new york city. rikers prison for some of my neighbors is like overnight camp. the good folks of gentrification in all their boldness, do stop at a certain level of familiarity. i guess if you know a lot of big words, have read a lot of books, traveled around the world, and think it’s all good, nigger has all kinds of great dimensional meanings and is a “staple aspcet of technique” of the artform called hip hop. i’m willing to be down. why not? let’s get this new day started by empirically experimenting in crown heights using japanese and korean rap as prime examples of how far we have come. who’s with me?

Posted 13 May 2009 at 11:33 pm ¶
Miss Girl wrote:

@johnjihoonchang: well articulated, thank you!

And let me be the first to say that I am wary and critical of any group that attempts to exclude/discount/undermine the efforts and contributions of others simply because of racial or ethnic differences.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 12:01 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Arabi:

Upon reflection you may realize that once something because dominant and popular it’s roots are forgotten and it becomes UNIVERSALIZED.
Do you think white folks should be claiming computers, jeans, sneakers, the internet, etc.

Either you’re deliberately missing my points, or I’m not making myself clear enough, in spite of multiple comments and a list.

Since the dominant culture in this country IS White, White people don’t have to “claim” things. They are a given. They shouldn’t be, but they are. That’s how a racial hergemony works: good/valuable things are White until proven otherwise. Not “raceless” or “universal” – White. WHITE. (I’m not gonna get into the problematic notion of “Whiteness” on this thread, but if you’re looking for the root of the problem there it is.)

As many of the other posters have already pointed out, many other groups are able to collectively “claim” cultural contributions to dominant culture that began with them. Since the overall “value” of a subculture group is often determined by what the dominant culture believes that said group has to offer, just what do you think that the social implications are of dominant White culture’s repeatedly refusing to acknowledge the value of Black cultural contributions? I think that gatamala ( # 80) summed it up perfectly in her comment: “You can’t take something from nothing right?”

Right.

Hmm. Maybe you’ve got some reflecting of your own to do. I mean, it tends to be more conducive to real dialogue than, say, snarky condescension.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 12:43 am ¶
cytoken wrote:

By Fiquah<<>>

Just wanted to co-sign. I’m not even African-American, but this happens constantly.

However, look on the bright side: after the dominant culture accepts and globalizes the subculture, blacks create something different.

So when hip hop is completely stultified by Asians, Frenchman, AND black Americans…then maybe we’ll get something fresh.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 1:13 am ¶
sammy wrote:

Hi…..if you haven’t already ms peterson you should read patrick neate’s where you at….offers a look at hip-hop in japan, south africa and brazil.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 1:46 am ¶
AC wrote:

Interesting article. Most of my experience with Korean hip-hop has been DJ OZMA’s direct ripoffs of it, but I like a lot of Japanese rap from living here, and some other more random discoveries like Russian hip-hop (we used to play Detsl at parties in college). I think it’s great that young people all over the world are enjoying and being influenced/inspired by hip-hop. It might be my naive white-ness talking, but I think it would be doing art injustice to not let others play in the sandbox and see what different things they can create from that. What, are we supposed to tell Rip Slyme they gotta sit around and play shamisen instead of rapping? The world is getting smaller and smaller these days, for better or for worse, and speaking as someone who has lived in Asia for most of her adult life, how we as westerners view race is not necessarily how other cultures view it, and I’ve seen it start a lot of useless, endless fights based on misunderstandings on both ends.

On the flipside, any of y’all heard of Jero? He’s an African-American from Pittsburgh who is now probably the most popular Enka singer in Japan at the moment – Enka being the traditional-style music (see end of either Kill Bill movie for examples). He goes out there in “hip-hop” styled clothing, Japanese folks all thought he was going to break out into some Jay-Z, and he made jaws drop. He’s huge over here right now, and hopefully undoing some of the dumb-guy image some African and African-American TV personalities have left Japan with.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 2:06 am ¶
fish wrote:

I’ve read this whole commentary thread – great topic!

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t hip hop just another form of music? I’m not downplaying its value, or making implications as to its origin, but isn’t hip hop defined as a progression of rhythms set to a certain progression of beats? If so, then I don’t understand why “authentic” hip hop is defined by social activism or community action. Authenticity would be defined by the technical merits of the practitioner – not the practitioner’s politics. In the same way, the only cultural appropriation I see in k-pop is the borrowing of clothes, fashion, and lifestyle. There’s nothing wrong with using a technical craft – especially when it has been explicitly made universal – but borrowing the lifestyle or a culture that is associated with the craft, without belong to that culture, is offensive.

I don’t get into hip hop in a big way, but parts of this thread have drawn parallels between the appropriation of hip hop and the appropriation of martial arts. Martial arts and hip hop are the same in the sense that both are based on technical practice, rather than cultural origin. People associate kung fu with China, but the term is misleading. Kung fu is a broad general term for hundreds of different styles and schools – the word doesn’t even translate to martial art in Chinese, it just means “skill”. Kung fu also didn’t originate in China, it was brought over from India before evolving into the hundreds of different forms it has today. The term kung fu can also be used to describe taekwondo or judo, because Chinese colonization brought martial arts to what is now modern day Korea and Japan. As far as I know, judo practitioners don’t trace their lineages to China, and nobody from any kung fu school credits India as their cultural birth place. The technical merits of the practice didn’t have to be packaged with the cultural context.

I’m Chinese American, but I don’t begrudge white people for practicing karate or kung fu. I’ve been boxing for several years , but I love to work out with any and all martial artists, and I mostly get irritated when people call me “Bruce” or ask me if I kickbox or if I meant to say that I do “Chinese boxing.” I met a half white half Asian kid who practiced a blend of wing tsun and boxing that originated in Ireland.

To me, African Americans claiming hip hop is weird – I’ve been trying my whole life to not be associated with kung fu or Bruce Lee or any other orientalist stereotype. Bruce Lee himself was born out of a mode of third world resistance – as an immigrant and an Asian American facing racism in Hollywood. His struggle against racism and outsider status resonated with marginalized communities around the world, he became an icon, and kung fu movies became commercial and universalized. I would love for everyone who likes kung fu movies, or who has every watched any choreographed fight scene in any movie, to know about Bruce Lee’s resistance to the mainstream, to what his struggle meant to Chinese/Chinese Americans specifically. But just because they don’t, doesn’t mean that they’re stealing kung fu or the kung fu flick. I’m satisfied as long as they don’t automatically take Bruce Lee and turn him into an Asian stereotype.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 2:20 am ¶
Westerly wrote:

Luis wrote:
“Another question that needs to be asked in tandem with this is where do the Puerto Rican and Jamaican-American pioneers of hip hop in the South Bronx figure when we’re talking about the “we” in “our culture,” which usually implies African-Americans?”

Yes, this. There never seems to be room for *this* particular conversation, because to hear most people talk it was as if those early Puerto Rican rappers and those Jamaican immigrants in NY with their toasting and their love of bass and loud sound systems (which funnily enough, they not only used in Jamaica but also took with them to the UK) NEVER existed, let alone contributed anything to hip-hop which apparently is the sole property of African-Americans.

Take this from fothoshoyo:
“@ whatanightmare: CO-SIGN!!! Hip hop is OURS (african-american slavery-surviving diaspora) and everyone else who is using it is appropriating from US. Period.”

Oh really? Well, I’m sure that a mere Jamaican immigrant DJ Kool Herc (who is a member of some “other” ’slavery-surviving diaspora – so clearly doesn’t count) would love to hear all about his ‘appropriating’ ways and probably needs to take back the break-beat and his use of b-boy and b-girl to refer to his dancers pronto, since he wouldn’t want to contaminate the African-American purity of it all. *eye-roll*

It’s actually become damn annoying to me that Jamaicans and Puerto Ricans are conveniently ‘disappeared’ from the hip-hop narrative (even if their contributions were ground-breaking) almost as if acknowledging the wider roots are a threat to the African-American roots of the music.

And when these artists are acknowledged – like let’s say KRS-ONE, Doug E. Fresh, Slick Rick, Afrika Bambaataa and so forth their Jamaican roots/origins are simply ignored as they are ironically enough, ‘passed’ off as being solely ‘African-American’. (Let’s just pretend that Slick Rick wasn’t born in England to Jamaican parents why don’t we?) Then of course many female rappers have been elided from the narrative as well and so forth.

The attempt to make the history of the music monolithic is disturbing.

I also haven’t failed to notice that there is little talk of ‘appropriation’ when african-american hip-hop artists use Jamaican patois in their verses (and no, Lauryn Hill marrying a Marley and being in a band with Haitians *doesn’t* make her an honorary Jamaican), throw in some pan music or soca beats or incorporate dancehall in their choreography – sometimes overtly, at other times with an unacknowledged dancehall ‘inflection’.

I am not saying that is ‘is’ appropriation but it seems to me that when its African Americans borrowing from some ‘other’ black diaspora it is just par for the course. Often it seems to me as if select aspects of Jamaican culture are treated by African Americans as if it is an extension of their own culture or something that merely exists to furnish their own (up there with tailored references to Egypt I guess.)

Almost as if in the minds of African-Americans ‘black’ and ‘African-American’ are interchangeable. Let me tell, it’s not.

With all that said, I don’t buy into the argument that if an art-form is popular and globally shared that that is an excuse to simply ignore the creative roots and pretend that the originators didn’t exist under the ‘it belongs to everybody now’ guise that gets levelled at black diasporic groups whenever they have the temerity to suggest that they are the originators of anything….

Nor does the fact that hip-hop does beg, steal and borrow from other forms of music detract from it’s creativity or the fact that it is a unique genre in it’s own right.

But I do think there needs to be a wider consideration of who was involved in pioneering those early days…

Lastly, in regards to the OP I think that many non-whites/POC are more than happy to embrace or mimic “black” cultural expression be it from North America, the West Indies, South America, Africa etc. but aren’t so keen on black people themselves or allowing themselves to think too hard about that aspect of it.

Black caricature and the fun that it provides is fine. Black people – not so much. (Again, I am not saying that that is the case with these artists or videos since I don’t know enough about them, but I have seen that play out once too often.)

One of the things that I remember about living in Korea was how many K-pop groups were imitating white American boy/girl bands, yet seemed to be unaware that those white boy/girl bands were, in turn, pale imitations of African-American r ‘n’ b groups… (It depressed me how many young Koreans I encountered attributed “September” to white Aussie boy-band CBD and had *never* heard of Earth, Wind and Fire.)

I suspect that people will have less problem in at least identifying the African-American roots of hip-hop.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 4:59 am ¶
Nan wrote:

@AC:Yes I absolutely adore Jero, he just seems really sweet and gentle, and his Nihongo is the biz. When I slack off on my Japanese lessons, I often wonder,”What would Jero do?”lol. But seriously, I do enjoy his music, and it’ll be cool to hear the depth and experience come through his enka once he’s like 40 or 50.

”Miss Girl wrote:

@johnjihoonchang: well articulated, thank you!

And let me be the first to say that I am wary and critical of any group that attempts to exclude/discount/undermine the efforts and contributions of others simply because of racial or ethnic differences.”

You can be as ”wary” as you’d like, but it won’t change the fact that hip hop’s origins are mired in black urban life. This doesn’t mean that hip hop is ”black only” or that it is owned by anyone. In fact, I listen to international hip hop all the time. As long as the music is good, I could care less about the color of the person rapping or
singing.

Arabi wrote:
”just because the creators were “black” doesn’t make it a black art form.”

Word? In one breath you (albeit grudgingly)admit that black people created hip hop, but in another you say that doesn’t make it a black artform? If what you mean is that hip hop is not exclusionary, then I agree. But, it IS a black artform.

”Black artists have been fighting the racial marker for decades yet ‘black folks are the first to slap it on somebody so we can take credit for something we didn’t have nothing to with”.

Wow. What are these things that black people ”had nothing to do with” that we are attempting to take credit for? That whole statement is just suspect, and icky. And, if according to you, cultures can’t be ”hijacked” then why would it be bad for black people, or any people for that matter to take credit for some things? Aren’t you exhibiting the ” modernist capitalist orientation ” mindset you accused me of, by even suggesting that certain things can be taken credit for in a cultural context?

Posted 14 May 2009 at 6:42 am ¶
CVT wrote:

@Arabi -
That should have read as “people from other cultures.” Outside of that, I’m not even sure what you were arguing. Please don’t try to tell me that cultures aren’t real. “Race is a construct,” but it’s most definitely REAL on a significant level. And I specified countries of origin and ethnic identities in my writing, so the reference to race wasn’t relevant.

Although others have been attacking you – I’m not. Just making some observations. As far as I’m concerned, it’s “misappropriation” when you don’t honor the history (or aren’t aware of it). Period. Respond to that, please.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 9:54 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Westerly, Luis: I’m glad you both mentioned the Puerto-Rican and West Indian roots of hip-hop. I’d like to gently point out that back in the late 1970s and 1980s, first-generation children of Caribbean parents were not exactly reppin’ their heritage at street parties. In fact, many (not all, just a lot) first-generation kids of Caribbean parents who grew up during this period didn’t embrace their cultural heritage until adulthood. A lot has changed in three decades, and second and third-generation kids now openly express pride in their Caribbean heritage, but back in 1983, it was Operation: Get In Where You Fit In. That’s always been the story with immigration, to blend and assimilate. This isn’t to say that there weren’t groups – from community organizations to artists collectives to street gangs – who didn’t identify proudly as Puerto Rican or Jamaican, but to quote a a first-generation Jamaican-American acquaintance who grew up on 192 and Valentine circa 1979, “Nobody was talking about that shit at the jams.”

Posted 14 May 2009 at 10:12 am ¶
Miss Girl wrote:

@Nan #98:
I agree that it’d be ridiculous to claim that hip hop is *not* rooted in urban Black American culture.

Just to clarify, I wrote earlier:
“Does it just all boil down then to education, recognition, and respect?” (#70)

I had meant my question to sound rhetorical. And later in my post, I pretty much answered *yes, yes it does*.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 11:48 am ¶
m. wrote:

I hate to say this, but I have to be honest: I’m almost-sort-of doubtful that many of these comments are actually coming from people involved in the community (hip-hop). Sorry, but that is just me. It is important to recognize that hip-hop is a black art form, but people can do this without completely undermining the contributions of BROWN people from it’s INCEPTION. One need only have a basic knowledge of hip-hop’s history to know that some pretty… no, why am I downplaying this? …VERY important contributions to the community have been made by Asian American, Indigenous, Xican@ and Boricua people. I am not talking about those who are new to the game, either – I’m talking people who have been there since hip-hop’s very beginnings. DJ Q-Bert/Frost/Chino XL/apl.de.ap/Frances M, anyone? I think these folks are owed just as much respect and attention as Grandmaster Flash or the Soul Sonic Force. (The latter are big-time cultural appropriators in the truest sense of the term, and rarely does anyone outside of OR within the hip-hop community talk about it because us Native peoples are ignored or erased from every space we’re in. It’s nauseating, so I’m not even going to get into that.)
Oh, and a lot of those video examples? Yeah, those are pop. Not hip-hop, not RnB and I’m sure artists like the Wondergirls would never proclaim to be anything BUT bubblegum music. Hence, ‘K-Pop’. I’m just wondering what this has to do with hip-hop and cultural appropriation? Two totally different mediums, there.
Also, I don’t know if anyone noticed comment #89, but it is very useful and makes a lot of sense. @grace: Thanks!

Posted 14 May 2009 at 11:49 am ¶
annie wrote:

@ fuzzylogic re: how black culture first circulated in Korea. Thank you for bringing in that key tidbit about how Korean cultural appropriation of black music got started in the first place. “That is, as far back as the 50s during the Korean War and during the Vietnam War, black service men brought jazz and funk to Korea, which was later picked up by the locals as they gradually created clubs that catered strictly for U.S. military. so, i think its hard to abstract cultural appropriation as “stealing” when the often undiscussed form of globalization, U.S. colonialism, has a lot to do with it.”

There is a fabulous Korean film called Go Go 70 that came out last year based on the true story of the first band in Korea to make it playing “Soul Music.” (Yeah there was a cheesy Seoul-Soul pun.) One scene has the male lead stealing LPs out of an African American officer’s quarters, while another scene has the female lead defending the Korean women who worked in camptown clubs as more than just Yankee whores.

Sadly, re: Big Bang member’s racism, Koreans have learned racism from America too well. That said, a not insignificant number of African immigrants to Korea choose to self-present as African American because it’s better to be typecast as a rapper (at least you get some cultural cachet and maybe a gig DJing at a neighborhood nightclub) than being discriminated against for being Senegalese.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 11:50 am ¶
Sean wrote:

@ Westerly

You are correct in your assertion that Jamaican and Puerto Rican immigrants were there, and contributed to the nascent music that came to be known as hip-hop. I’m a South Bronx native, so I well remember who was “on the block” when it all went down. Actually it’s kind of surreal to hear all the various “histories” of hip-hop, having seen firsthand the DJ’s toasting in the park and often getting harrassed by the cops. I liken the experience to being in New Orleans at the start of the 20th Century and watching this new-fangled thing called ‘jazz’ taking shape -but I digress.

Black people from Jamaica who immigrate to the U.S. are generally considered African-Americans -NOT Jamaican-Americans. These are politically-correct labels that, quite frankly, make no sense, and certainly were NOT created by black people.

While on the subject of “African-American” labelism, it’s interesting to note that once co-opted by the dominant culture, “African-American” artforms are considered simply “American” art-forms. It’s as if we only become Americans when conveinient.

@ Fish

Excellent post. No one here is actually “begrudging” non-black people from practicing hip-hop, as we well know culture can’t be contained. Perhaps you find it strange that African-Americans claiming hip-hop only because the origins of certain Asian cultural artforms are generally not questioned and/or denied as consistently as black artforms are?

My (mis?)understanding of the dilemma that many Asian-Americans face in the U.S. is that they are still considered as “perpetually foreign” by the dominant society, hence Asian cultural contributions are still viewed as “exotic”?

Posted 14 May 2009 at 12:00 pm ¶
foshothoyo wrote:

@Westerly/Luis:

edit: (african-descended slavery-surviving diaspora)

Posted 14 May 2009 at 12:20 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

Fiqah wrote:

“…to quote a a first-generation Jamaican-American acquaintance who grew up on 192 and Valentine circa 1979, “Nobody was talking about that shit at the jams.”

LOL! I might have bumped into your acquaintance and not know it. That was my admittedly 30 + years old recollection: the DJ’s were largely trying to get the party started and boasting on themselves.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 12:22 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

@ Fiqah
You said “Since the dominant culture in this country IS White”
Just think about this and realize how far fetch this claim is
The majority of individuals in this country may identify/be identified as white but to presume there is some sort of White culture is stretching.
Explain what culture is too me and we can go from there.
What is this white culture’s relationship with black culture. Can one be black be culturally white and vice versa? “Blacks ” in a America tend to eat the same food, speak the same language, wear the same clothes, drive the same cars, go to the same schools, live in the same dwellings, etc. however, they are culturally different. In what fashion and how is this related to differences with other nationalities?

“Since the overall “value” of a subculture group is often determined by what the dominant culture ”
I disagree. If we granted their are cultures and subculture than we can assume that they may have different criteria for awarding value. What you claim is not possible if the sub-culture and the dominant culture differ in this regard.
Punk rock, hip-hop, beatnicks, hippies, etc. all had their ways of assessing value that contradicted that of the “dominant” culture(which really just means the culture the mass media caters to) thus the dominant could not determine value for them but it could evaluate the sub-groups on their own criteria but again this often does not match that of the sub-groups.
IN SUM: A whole lot of “lily” white suburbanites still detest hip hop.

believes that said group has to offer, just what do you think that the social implications are of dominant White culture’s repeatedly refusing to acknowledge the value of Black cultural contributions”

@Nan
“black people created hip hop”

NO, not possible. Races cannot create, but people do, and yes hip hop as we understand it, was first put to the table, mic, wall and floor by individuals of African descent. If anyone can claim it, they can but not others who do so based on something as arbitrary as blood descent.
White folks who attempt to rewrite hip hop history to give “white” actors a more prominent role as a predication to their own involvement and as a way to make them feel legitimate in its practice are just as silly. Don’t necessarily have to share a racial “heritage” with the founders of an art form to be able to lay claims to its practice. It’s akin to black folks making up stories about Plato stealing “black” knowledge so they can feel better about themselves for studying Greek thought. NO, the heritage we all share that allows us to partake of the inventions of man is our humanity. And that’s on the real. I’m not Greek, but Greek thought is mine because I engage with it and it belongs to all others who engage with it as well(consciously or unconsciously) same for hip hop. That’s my ideology.

What are these things that black people ”had nothing to do with” that we are attempting to take credit for?
No, this is about black folks taking credit for the work of other black folks simply because their black.
I love my sister and she makes some beautiful jewellery but I’m not about to take credit
On the real, the idea of “white” art forms or “black” art forms make sense only in an essentialist framework. If you really do believe race is a construct you should realize why such concepts don’t work. Now if we want to get into the who sociology of culture and historicize hip hop thats another thing but calling it a “black” art form almost implies that its in our blood or something, which is ridcolous.

@CVT
IF you truly reflect on your own “culture”(Why do you presume this is real when thinkers have been grappling with this idea for centuries? Anyway, I’ll say this would include your language, fashion, architecture, diet, mannerisms, stories you hear and tell and how their told, etc) you might realize how ridiculous the notion that “misappropriation ” when you don’t honor the history”
Your basically holding others to standards you may not hold (most people don’t) for yourself.
This despite the fact that many of the pioneers of hip hop only get gigs in Europe and Asia. How many lil’ emcees round the blocks of Chicago or Atlanta really know the history. They don’t but like all other B-boys round the world, they’re living it.

@Sean
“African-American” artforms are considered simply “American” art-forms. It’s as if we only become Americans when convenient”
Is this not true for everyone. Who really thinks Pizza is Italian or Thinks of Scotland or China when they play golf.
Many of us don’t really want to become just American (whatever that means. Nationalism, the other pillar next to race that must fall) anyway.
“origins of certain Asian cultural artforms are generally not questioned and/or denied ”
Honestly, what makes you think that.
If you are African-American perhaps you feel this way because any discussion of African-American “culture” is salient to your consciousness.
Anyway, here is something to think about.
Why is it that racial minorities always fret about their “culture” forms being stolen while white people always fret about not having a “culture”?
Both are deluded in my opinion. But I think it relates to the whole “normalness” of whites. Minorities secretly want to be “normal” but don’t really while Whites secretly want to be “different” but don’t want to give up the privileges of being “normal”
We’re all still playing by certain rules and don’t realize it.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 3:01 pm ¶
johnjihoonchang wrote:

To play more of an optimist when it comes to the appropriation of hip-hop:

Rock and roll’s black roots aren’t very well known because the popularizers of rock music were white: Elvis, etc.

But since the popularizers of hip-hop are black, it may just be that everyone will just have to acknowledge that hip-hop was originated by black Americans.

The rapping Corean girls in the music videos above are given music to learn from (or if they’re already into it, they already know the music) and I am most certain that when they look at album covers and watch the music videos, they’re unable to ignore that what they’re learning, they are learning from black Americans.

That may not resolve all the racist tensions that exist in their hearts, but I doubt that any of them could ignore the black roots of the artform that they practice.

One good thing about hip-hop going mainstream is that the face of mainstream hip-hop is still black and that might mean that no one’s going to forget that. Not like blues, jazz and rock. (Although it’s arguable that blues is still understood to be originated by black Americans, due to its limited mainstream exposure and that many of its icons are black.)

Posted 14 May 2009 at 3:50 pm ¶
Squidfly wrote:

I’m Ok with it. As two cultures-African American/Carib and Asian-that have been culturally ransacked for centuries, it works out nicely.
If you’re going to sing the Delta Blues, you have to sing in a Mississippi dialect as you’d sing Wagner in the German and Verdi in the Italian. So I get the use of Hip Hop verbal stylistics ( One of the great great groups).

Posted 14 May 2009 at 5:09 pm ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Arabi:

Oh, good grief. I have no desire to futher derail this thread (and apologies to the moderators) by going off on some tangent about the normative construction of Whiteness/White culture. Works on this topic abound; a simple Google search will return all the information you need if further education on the topic is what you desire.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 6:30 pm ¶
dani wrote:

Okay so if its obvious that Hip-Hop has Black roots than why are we arguing and getting sensitive on giving respect and credit? It still seems like some people have issues with giving African-Americans props for orginating this globalized genre and culture. I’ve read everyone’s comment in this section and no one said anything disrespectful of other ethnicities culturally appropriating Hip-Hop and having an issue. The main issue is that people get extremely defensive when giving respect to African-Americans for their contributions to American music. African-Americans are actually more inclusive than what others believe and we don’t have a problem with other ethnicities enjoying it and vibing to it. We just get tired of the disrespect thrown our ways whenever it comes to our culture.

@johnjihoonchang

Rock and roll’s black roots aren’t very well known because the popularizers of rock music were white: Elvis, etc.

I don’t know about that. Little Richard and Chuck Berry were still very popular when Elvis was out. Oh yeah Elvis stole Jackie Wilson style lol.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 7:01 pm ¶
milan wrote:

From all the discussion here I’m surprised that the appropriation of hip-hop culture beyond just the music has not been discussed. Rapping/MC’ing is just one aspect of hip-hop. The elements of graffiti, breaking and general street fashion have always been a cultural phenomenon and continue to this day.

Case in point – the streetwear culture originated by Bape in Japan was influenced by American Hip-Hop, yet only recently have American artists begun to embrace it (Kanye, Pharell, Lil’ Wayne) and now skinny jeans, bright jackets and old-school dunks are completely mainstream in American Hip-Hop.

Moreover, my personal opinion is that although international hip-hop may not be aware of the historical roots of hip-hop – they (more than most mainstream American hip-hop artists) have kept the initial values of hip-hop alive. Case in point: M-flo. Again, nobody seems to have mentioned it here but M-flo’s emcee is Verbal, a zainichi and their music often incorporates jazz and old-school rap samples.

Although their music has become somewhat more pop, I would put the quality of their music at equal level if not above what American hip-hop has produced in recent years. Check ou their M-flo loves… series, featuring international artists from Korea and the U.S. as well as Japanese RnB artists like Crystal Kay (half-black, half-zainichi)

In conclusion, as some mentioned earlier – hip-hop was created in a historically American environment but its contributors came from all backgrounds and cultures and global hip-hop artists are only continuing this.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 8:09 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Milan –

Shhh! You’re ruining the surprises for the next post!

Posted 14 May 2009 at 8:17 pm ¶
Miles Ellison wrote:

@johnjihoonchang

Rock and Roll’s roots aren’t that well known because there have been generations of whitewashing of its origins. Rock and Roll predates Elvis Presley. He was chosen as the face of the music once it was discovered that white teenagers (particularly female ones) liked it, and having white girls infatuated with black male performers could not be allowed. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, and Bo Diddley were contemporaries of Elvis, and unlike him, they actually wrote their own songs and were accomplished instrumentalists.

That said, Elvis and other white performers popularizing Rock and Roll was not the real issue. The crux of the issue was the exclusion of later generations of black musicians from Rock and Roll, and the relentless attempts to de-racialize the few standout black performers (like Jimi Hendrix) and the relentless revision of history to turn Rock and Roll into a white invention.

The appropriation of art always follows the same pattern in America. A marginalized and ignored group creates a unique mode of expression. The majority group copies it, popularizes it, then denies that the original group had anything to do with creating it, taking all the credit for themselves. Given the glacial pace of attitude change, it’s very likely that 40 years from now, we’ll be reading about how Eminem invented hip hop and black people had nothing to do with it.

Posted 14 May 2009 at 8:43 pm ¶
Arabi wrote:

@Fiqah
Yes, don’t engage me, just point me off to mighty”Google’ where presumably the last word on “White” culture has been spoken.
To speak of “white” culture in this context is not a derailment since the whole notion of Cultural “Misappropriation” as a concept was in reference to “cultureless” white folks adopting signs associated with other “cultures” for their own personal use

Posted 14 May 2009 at 9:05 pm ¶
John Jihoon Chang wrote:

@dani – Good point re: Little Richard/Chuck Berry. I think I should do some more reading into who got big in early rock and roll, who was listening and how they got there. Brings me back to my college ethnomusicology days….

@milan – There was some mention of b-boying, but way to spell out the fundamentals of hip hop culture: scratching, rapping, tagging and b-boying. (And accompanied fashion and so forth.) Internationally, but also even just in America, many different people groups have contributed to what hip hop is today (and to some degree, was, even early on, if you think about the dance influences of early b-boys).

Posted 14 May 2009 at 9:34 pm ¶
Ric Reyes wrote:

@dani

“Rock and roll’s black roots aren’t very well known because the popularizers of rock music were white: Elvis, etc.

I don’t know about that. Little Richard and Chuck Berry were still very popular when Elvis was out. Oh yeah Elvis stole Jackie Wilson style lol.”

Yeah, but this was known in your country. What I mean is, americans in general tend to think people from other countries know the same things that you know. Elvis was sold (by white media, I suppose) as “The king of rock” just as Glenn Miller was sold as “jazz”. The real cultural appropiation is to be blamed on the powers that be, not the foreign people that can’t see the whole picture.

Once in the 90’s I read in a magazine that hip-hop was already white since they could cancel the shows or the broadcasting of the songs, I remember Vanilla Ice being dubbed as “The king of rap”, That’s how they play. Mexican radio stations played Hammer and Vanilla Ice, never N.W.A. or P.E. “Those who control our past…”

People are miseducated about their oun countries’ history, let alone other countries. I´m not saying this is right, but I’ve read in this blog comments from americans like “What? Don’t you know about Malcom X (for example)? you gotta be lying!” but I wouldn’t raise an eyebrow if an american told me he doesn’t know who Gaspar Yanga or Morelos are. Sometimes americans really expect us to know about their culture in a way that’s weird, since they often know little about other cultures.

I was born in Mexico in 1977 and, telling by whichever american media (tv, movies, songs) I consumed I actually thought America was racial paradise, the only place in teh world where blacks and whites lived in harmony! It’s funny it was my interest in Hip Hop that got me into non-mainstream stuff that I started educating myself with whatever information I could find about the real deal. And the big or little knowledge that I got made me respect african-american people more and more.

But my point was, media miseducates people. But I think that the internet makes a big difference now than when whites or others took credit from jazz or rock. Media isn’t that monolithic now and it’s easier for those interested to dig into the origins of art forms like hip hop.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 12:15 am ¶
Tokyo Kiss wrote:

@ Kaonashi: Yes, a member of the Korean girl group Girls Generation said that Alicia Keys was pretty “for a black girl.” I don’t know any og their music, so I can’t say if they “borrow” from hip hop or Motown, but I would not be surprised if they had. It’s common to have Korean groups/singers do live performances of American songs, a lot of times songs sung by African-Americans.

The girl who said it did get in a bit of trouble, but from my reading it seem that people (in Korea, at least) were more upset that she said some negative things about nurses in the same conversation, rather than anything about Alicia Keys.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 12:24 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

just looking back at the questions asked in the original article:

>What constitutes appropriation and what is an homage?

i went to my electronic dictionary to make sure what i knew as “appropriation” was “appropriation”.

the dictionary sez:
“The act of taking something which belongs to somebody else, especially without permission”.

i really don’t know if “cultural appropriation” or “homage” fit in these cases.
people around the world creating hip-hop to fit their region and what they know probably are not thinking about paying homage to hip-hop or its creators.
on the other hand, if you are a in nepal and hear some songs on the radio that you like, how do you get permission from black americans to re-create that in your own style?
obviously we can’t get all of the people seriously invested in hip-hop in north america to grant patents to people abroad…

>When are we borrowing versus flat out stealing?

can we really say that they are “stealing”?
there are some pretty blatent cases of white americans stealing music styles that originated with black americans.
in many cases, going so far as to copy the song itself, but tweak some of the beats to appeal (?) to mainstream white america.
but the wonder girls were not sneaking around NYC with jyp looking for beats to steal.
they didn’t jump the supremes and take their outfits or anything like that.
they aren’t making the claim that r&b, hip-hop, rap, etc were created in korea by koreans.

i don’t know what to say about borrowing, but maybe remolding to fit the local area is better?

however, i am quite certain that hip-hop and the images associated with it around the world are linked to black americans.

>What are the power dynamics involved in this conversation?

i wonder, too.
i don’t think that asia or africa can really do anything to directly disenfranchise minorities in america.
certainly there are people in those countries who think that black people are scary or whatever stereotypes they have been fed, but i don’t think that those would be the people listening to hip-hop or whatever.

even though you can find hip-hop in a number of countries, in asia at least, it’s still pretty subculture.
you might get an artist who wears the clothes and does an r&b-ish song, but nothing to the level of popularity that it has in the US.

anyways, i’m disturbed at the “why are they stealing from us” type of comments.
because it’s really only within the last 10 years or so (i think) that hip-hop has spread throughout the world.
and unless you go back in time and stop motown records and all of those companies that promoted back music since then to not allow the music to be played abroad, there’s not much that you can do.

even saying that “they need to know the history” is nice, but in reality it’s not going to happen.
because as americans, we’re not expected to know the history behind latin american music or chinese new year. so, i don’t think it’s too fair to say that they MUST know our musical/cultural history before they use our music.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 12:44 am ¶
Westerly wrote:

Ugh – Tokyo Kiss do not get me started on that “pretty for a black girl” “black…but pretty” nonsense. My favourite was hearing about how ugly Sarah Vaughn was but this Korean woman priding herself on being able to admit that she was a ‘good singer.’ *eyeroll*

Nice post Rick Reyes. I don’t think it pays to take it for granted that everyone is intimately familiar with the history of African-American music. Like I said in my own post, met one too many people in Korea who really seemed to think that N-Sync was the real deal. Came across comparisons of Justin Timberlake to Usher, and guess who won out?

And yep, alot of that stuff looks like K-pop and variants on r n’ b to me. I’ve heard that BOA is hip-hop but…yeah.

Miles Ellison, I fully agree with your account of how the critical problem with the appropriation of rock n’ roll was not only the act of appropriation but the way that it was systematically constructed as a ‘white only’ space (visually and labelling-wise) to the point where even African Americans began to perceive the music in this way.

It’s the difference between acknowledging a creative and cultural space that people have constructed and hoping that there is some room for you to share in it and even contribute, as opposed to marching in, claiming it as your own, evicting all of the original residents and then to add insult to injury putting up a “no _____ allowed” sign.

I do think however that there is so much ‘cache’ in hip-hop being identified as an African-American or in some instances ‘black artform that I don’t think that the likes of Eminem are going to get to play the role of Elvis this time around.

In regards to tye bissue of Jamaican and Puerto Rican contributions being acknowledged, Luis was the one who raised the issue in the first place. I merely co-signed. (See how easy it is to acknowledge when somebody gets there first?)

@Fiqah: “I’d like to gently point out that back in the late 1970s and 1980s, first-generation children of Caribbean parents were not exactly reppin’ their heritage at street parties.”

…And? Still doesn’t change their roots or in some instances where they came from. Nor does it change the fact that you can be both West Indian and “American” too, and that part of what they were reppin’ was ALSO their heritage. Let’s say Slick Rick decided to pretend he wasn’t born in England and insisted that his parents were African-American rather than you know, Jamaican. What then?

I am not American so I am not into hyphenates, but is it possible for someone to be let’s say Jamaican, Hatian (ala Wyclef Jean), Cuban, Trinidadian, Bajan etc. AND be American at the same time without having to be an ‘honorary’ African-American’ by either having to assimilate as one or benignly regarded as one?

@Sean:
Black people from Jamaica who immigrate to the U.S. are generally considered African-Americans -NOT Jamaican-Americans. These are politically-correct labels that, quite frankly, make no sense, and certainly were NOT created by black people.

Hmmm. Generally considered *by who*? African-Americans? White Americans? Or perhaps more critically themselves and other Jamaicans in the US?

It’s that last question that interests me. I am Trinidadian – not Jamaican, so I am not presuming to speak for other Jamaicans, whereever they maybe. So it might be just as you say in the case of Jamaicans.

However, from my own experience my grandmother who has lived in New York and Florida for most of her life regards herself as Tobagonian, then American – not ‘African-American’ or worse, Tobagonian-American. Just sometimes, one and at other times the other and at other times again, both. (Again, you might be surprised to discover how many West Indians have no use for fixed hyphenates.) She does not claim African-American identity for herself.

And most of my other family members who live in the states tend to see themselves as Trinidadians, or Trinidadians *and* Americans. Not because there is anything ‘wrong’ with being African-American but because they have a history and culture of their black diasporic own that is at times parallel but at other times very different to the African-American experience – one that can’t simply be subsumed under the African-American experience.

Likewise with my firend in Barbados, who lives in West Virginia. Sometimes he’s Barbaduan/Bajan at other times American. I’ve never heard him claim to be African-American.

I live in New Zealand – have lived here for the vast majority of my life but I don’t feel ‘embraced’ when Pakeha give me an indulgent, knowing smile when I tell them just how many years I’ve been here and then and deign to hoist ‘kiwi’ identity upon me. (”Oh – so you’re *really* a kiwi then.)

They are always taken aback when I refuse it because I have a history and identity of my own – and it has nothing to do with my white ancestors from the UK sailing to NZ, trying to divest Maori of their language, resources, culture and land by any means possible, urbanising it – and then strategically naming themselves after an ancient, indigenous, endangered almost-to-the-point of extinction brown bird that lives in the great NZ bush – which they always claim to feel such a great spiritual connection to.

(Because they’re ‘really’ tangata whenua too, and just as indigenous as any Maori etc.)

Sorry – that’s not the history or the narrative of myself or my ancestors struggling with the cross-Atlantic passage etc.

*coughs* Sorry.
So anyway, to get way back on track, irrespective of who was downplaying what aspect of their immigrant national/cultural or who was trying to assimilate into African-Americaness, the fact of the matter remains that yes, Jamaicans and Puerto Ricans were not only involved in creating this music but bought aspects of their own culture background, and musical influences (i.e. Jamaican and Puerto Rican styles) to it, whether or not they were reppin’ Puerto Rica or Jamaica from the roof-tops.

Yet, acknowledging this doesn’t make it less African-American either. To me it’s: “Yes, this music, this creativity *is* African-American – and some of the early contributors were Jamaican, Puerto Rican etc. too”

Posted 15 May 2009 at 6:49 am ¶
Nan wrote:

m. wrote:

”I hate to say this, but I have to be honest: I’m almost-sort-of doubtful that many of these comments are actually coming from people involved in the community (hip-hop). Sorry, but that is just me. It is important to recognize that hip-hop is a black art form, but people can do this without completely undermining the contributions of BROWN people from it’s INCEPTION.”
Word m.? So because those of us who would defend hip hop’s roots, aren’t saying what you, and a few other posters would like to hear…we’re not involved in or don’t know shit about hip hop? Who the eff is ”undermining” the contributions of brown people? Have you read something I haven’t? How the hell is me and a few others, pointing out the fact that black roots(COMPLETE DIASPORA, but particularly american)being the FOUNDATION of hiphop undermining brown people’s contributions?

m. wrote:”VERY important contributions to the community have been made by Asian American, Indigenous, Xican@ and Boricua people. I am not talking about those who are new to the game, either – I’m talking people who have been there since hip-hop’s very beginnings. DJ Q-Bert/Frost/Chino XL/apl.de.ap/Frances M, anyone?”

Believe me dude, compared to The Last Poets, who were rapping and freestyling before my mama was was knee high to a grasshopper, and Gil Scott Heron; every last one of those artists you named, including Grand Master Flash, came late in the game as far as I’m concerned. Chino XL is garbage, and shouldn’t even be mentioned. Even his being half *gasp* black doesn’t get him a pass from me. He might as well be making songs with Lil Wayne. I’m more of an Immortal Technique and Brother Ali girl myself, if we must name people who aren’t black, but contribute to hip hop. Oh and apl.de.ap is half pinoy/half again *gasp* black, but he was raised in the Phillipines til he was 11, so I’ll give you that one. m., what did Grandmaster Flash and the Soul Sonic Force appropriate? And for Westerly, Grand Master Flash is Barbadian American, Busta is Jamerican, some old head who’s Hatian American, name is slipping me(no not Wyclef)who was around in the ”hey day” of hip hop, and many others who are black, but not black American deserve credit. Happy now?

@Arabi…I am not a revisionist. I have no need to claim Egypt’s pyramids(I hate the desert anyway)or Plato’s knowledge, to give me a sense of self. I will never be one of those crazies who claim the Olmecs were black, or any that nonsense. BUT in the world we live in, human worth is based on what your people have accomplished culturally. At least that’s how I see it. Perfect example(long story alert): A few years ago, my paternal great grandmother passed, and after the funeral, my stepmother, best friend, an aqquaintance and myself, came across some photos while we packed up the house. One of the photos was of my great gran’s parents, one was her as a toddler, and another was of her mother’s parents. I had never seen my great-great-great gran before, but I had been told that her mother was a slave, and her father some nameless asshole white guy, and she had left her mother behind to escape slavery. That was all I was ever told, and I never pried because it seemed to be a painful subject for my great gran. So, in this picture my 3x great grandmother is standing next to this Native guy who’s wearing a cowboy hat, over his two long braids, and some chaps, and I’m like, who the eff is this guy? My stepmother tells me,” oh that’s your 3xgreat grand father. You never knew?” I explain to her how I don’t know jack past the 2xgreat grans, and how I’m going to try and find out more about the woman and man in the picture, particularly, the woman. This is when shit gets ugly because the aqquaintance(white guy)starts to lecture me on how I should be more interested in finding out about the Native grandfather, and his people because, and I quote,”I’ve always found Native culture to be fascinating and very noble.” His words, not mine. To this guy, one of my ancestors is completely worthless as a person because she is the child of a slave, and therefore has no history or culture. I’ve also had people tell me for no apparent reason, while discussing man’s accomplishments; how blacks worldwide have accomplished nothing as a people. This sentiment is reinforced constantly by the dominant culture, so sue me if I want to hold on to a small piece of culture for my folks. Doesn’t mean that you can’t be a part of it, but it does mean that credit needs to be given where credit is due.

dani wrote:

Okay so if its obvious that Hip-Hop has Black roots than why are we arguing and getting sensitive on giving respect and credit?”

EXACTLY!!! I could tell you some of my ideas on why, but I think you already know. We can sit here and explain til we’re blue in the face, and they still won’t get it, cuz they don’t want to. You can lead a horse to the water…

Posted 15 May 2009 at 7:09 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Arabi –

Go reread my post. No where in there did we define cultural appropriation as something exclusive to whites. Don’t argue against an assumption that isn’t being made.

@M –

See my note on “hip-pop” in the piece, and how I am going to get to that later.

Big Bang and the Wonder Girls are hip-hop influenced – Big Bang with aesthetics and language, Wonder Girls with their one rapper. However, I choose Nobody specifically for the Motown reference; if I had gone with Japanese artists, I could have selected Namie Amuro for her references. The same basic questions arise.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 8:42 am ¶
Sean wrote:

Westerly wrote:

Hmmm. Generally considered *by who*? African-Americans? White Americans? Or perhaps more critically themselves and other Jamaicans in the US?

Westerly, they are considered “African-Americans by many U.S. institutions, i.e. the Census Bureau for one. They are also “charitably” considered African Americans when they can’t hail a cab in lower Manhattan.

I understand where you’re coming from as far as these types of labels. I’m a first-generation American from parents who are from Central America. That’s why I said earlier that these labels make no sense. (are Caucasians in the U.S. considered European-Americans?)

Actually, one of the few things I enjoyed about living in the “burned-down Bronx” was indeed the diversity of the people living together, ass-to-elbow in near poverty. Gatherings on the block usually saw Jamaicans, Haitians, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, and Black Americans partying… and acting up occasionally.

I remember distintcly that this unusual (at the time) music often featured a DJ chanting in patois over the LPs they played. So rap indeed was birthed from Black creole diasporic roots.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 1:43 pm ¶
Asha wrote:

I haven’t gotten the chance to read all of the coments yet so hopefully I’m not repeating anything.
When we were younger me and my brothers would collect international hip-hop and in the last year I’ve really gotten into East Asian pop, especially Korean but also some Japanese and Chinese stuff (mmmm Wang Lee Hom). So I’ve been interested in international intepretations of “black music” for a long time. I just wrote a paper about the the consumption of Asian R&B by African American youth. This post is totally interesting in relation to my paper because part of my argument was that seeing signifiers associated with blackness on Asian bodies unsettles the “naturalness” of these signifiers for black viewers, which is positive in that it opens up the possibility of questioning stereotypes and assumptions about how black people are expected to be/act. A really helpful theorist for talking about these issues is a dude named George Lipsitz who, among other things, has written a book called Dangeroua Crossroads which is really accessible and also really intellectually sitimulating. So there’s a little recommendation for people interested in this subject.
One last thing, about the n-word. I’m sure sometimes people are saying the n-word, but other times it’s a homophone problem. “Nega” means “I” or “me” in Korean. I learned this because my brother is teach in Korea right now and it lead to a startling incident for him when one of his students really wanted to be called on. “Nega” is also the equivalent of “um” in some Chinese dialects (there is a russell peters joke about this but I can’t remember where I saw it).
Anywho, check out Lipsitz. For real. What a cool guy.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 2:50 pm ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Sean: Thank you for explaining what I couldn’t. It’s really difficult to explain how “Blackness” as it pertains specifically to New York to people who have never lived here. Thanks for the cab example! Cultural and racial dynamics, from what I have been able to glean from folks I know who grew up in the Bronx at that time, took a back seat to poverty and all its ills. I dunno, I tend to grab a seat and take a lesson when people WHO WERE THERE chime in. From what my buds have told me, it was just kids having a good time, forgetting about the broken glass and burned-out buildings. (PS, I was just on the Bx5 a few hours ago; in many places it’s STILL broken glass and burned out buildings…sigh.)

Posted 15 May 2009 at 4:11 pm ¶
Nan wrote:

@Asha…Why the quotations on black music? Is it really that hard to just say black music? It seems to be the equivalent of passing a kidney stone for some. I can say Celtic music, Tamil music, Russian music, Samoan music, with no problems. I’ve mentioned, ad nauseum, the contributions by non blacks, non american blacks, and whoever else to hip hop, and STILL there are some who refuse to just recognize that it is an artform borne of a particular people, and practiced by many.

It actually pisses me off, and saddens me, that on this same blog, there is a piece on the whitening of the Last Airbender movie, and most of the posters(some from this piece)can grasp the general wrongness of distancing “Group A” from aspects of their culture, so that ”Group B” can take credit for it. And what’s effed up is,, even though I’m arguing hip hop’s black roots, I’m not even mad at seeing Korean hip hop/r&b. To me, it’s a beautiful thing seeing something I love, being loved by so many.

…So, a few things I’ve learned as a ”black”(thought I’d try the quotations) person during the course of this discussion: I can’t say that hip hop’s roots are black, I don’t know shit about hip hop, and I have no culture. Thanks, it’s been enlightening.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 7:09 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

No surprise there, Fiqah. :^(

It’s funny because this conversation brought back so many memories of that time. I remember there was a huge block party on Kelly St when one of the infamous late-70’s black-outs (no pun intended) in NYC occurred. The guys running the sound system had extension cords running into either someone’s apartment or one of the old-school streetlamps with the electrical sockets. One minute you had people dancing, drinking and generally merry-making, next minute, BOOM! The cops came with flashlights and had everyone disburse since it was after dark.It was “aww mannn”’s and “wtf”s and f-words every which way.

I was freaked out because the Son of Sam was still on the loose, but I figured “if he comes here, he’s gonna have a mob of p.o’d people to try to shoot! lol

Posted 15 May 2009 at 7:41 pm ¶
dani wrote:

@ Nan

I got you homie. It just proves our point when it comes to African-Americans in American music, people do not want to give credit to Black Americans.

Posted 15 May 2009 at 10:33 pm ¶
Fiqah wrote:

@Sean: This is for you.

http://www.rapradar.com/focus/rr-exclusive-2020-hip-hop-special-from-1981.html

Posted 15 May 2009 at 10:40 pm ¶
Asha wrote:

@ Nan
I put quotes on black music because calling something black music is fundamentally different from calling something tamil music or somoan music because black = race and tamil = ethnic group (not that there aren’t differences within ethnic or national groups that are worth acknowledging). if i wrote african american or black american then it wouldn’t have been in quotes. I also don’t think putting something in quotes means that what is in quotes isn’t valid; the quotes were meant to indicate that black music is a huge and unweildy category.
so I really wasn’t trying to disavow the african american roots of hip hop at all though I’m sorry if that’s how it looked. i absolutely think that there is a problem with trying to disassociate african american music from african american people and life and culture. but i also think that black refers to Africans as well as the whole diaspora, which has produced tons of different musics that are all “black music” and are taken up by the rest of the world it lots of different ways.
i hope this clears up that i don’t actually disagree with you, Nan.

Posted 16 May 2009 at 1:46 am ¶
Sean wrote:

@ Fiqah

LMAO! Thanks so much for that link. I started to tear up. Gosh, life was simpler (albeit impoverished) back then.

It made me realize how far (mainstream) hip-hop has simultaneously progressed and regressed at the same time. Not to slam the young ‘uns, but it goes to show you what happens when an artform becomes commercialized and commodified. That’s another reason why I view an infusion of different cultural perspectives and contributions as necessary for development. However, you can’t know where it’s going until you know where it’s been…

Interestingly enough, this report also confirmed the historical means of crossover via the Blondie segment. Rap didn’t really gain mainstream attention until she did her famous “Rapture” rap. The segment with the lady in the park discussing many white people’s fear of black expression is also telling. Hence, black culture is often rendered acceptable only when it is expressed by a non-black artist.

It also proves conclusively that BLONDIE was the Elvis of Hip-Hop! lol

dani wrote:

@ Nan

I got you homie. It just proves our point when it comes to African-Americans in American music, people do not want to give credit to Black Americans.

Have you ever noticed that despite considering himself Black, a lot of people will PAINSTAKINGLY insist: “Obama is NOT Black… he’s BI-RACIAL”? lol

Nan wrote:

Is it really that hard to just say black music? It seems to be the equivalent of passing a kidney stone for some.

LOL! Sometimes you just want to say: “Sound it out with me: B….Bllllll…Bllllllla…”

Posted 16 May 2009 at 11:28 am ¶
Ric Reyes wrote:

@Asha

I’ve read in several forums and blogs by several posters the notion that only black americans are black. Some even say that africans can’t be called black because only black americans have lived the black experience. I find this really weird even if I kind of understand what they mean. I wonder if, on the other side, some africans would disagree with black americans being called african-americans.

Posted 17 May 2009 at 4:39 am ¶
m. wrote:

@ Nan:
I am not disagreeing that hip-hop has black roots, I just feel like a lot of the comments in here make hip-hop out to be some monolithic game. Where would all of the Black artists who’ve either learned from or even appropriated from those groups I mentioned earlier be without us? This really reminds me a lot of when people talk about cumbia, saying it’s purely a product of the African diaspora…when in actuality, it wouldn’t exist in the first place without the Indigenous peoples of that region.
Sometimes I feel like people are so focused on certain art forms’ black roots, they forget that some of these mediums have SHARED roots – black AND brown roots. I’m witnessing a lot of these attitudes in the knee-jerk responses to certain comments, actually. The ones where someone says something ridiculous about intellectual property (by the by, I don’t agree with said commentor), but someone else posts a response along the lines of, “Hip-hop has black roots, period, end of story.” Yes, hip-hop DOES have black roots – someone else on here may have, but *I* never denied it. I just don’t agree with people who are implying those are the ONLY roots it has.
Anyway, if you really can’t be bothered to figure out how f-cked the Soul Sonic Force’s image(ry) was, then I really don’t know what to say. Don’t tell me you haven’t seen the get-up? MC ‘Pow Wow’? (Okay, the name is actually more stupid and appropriative than straight-up racist, so let’s focus on the “costuming” here.) I thought most people knew this, but then again, everyone and their brother is numb (or just blind) to redface. Oh, and since some people consider/ed them “hip-hop” (why, I have no idea) – here’s something you can liken the SSF’s schtick to: Outkast’s 2004 Grammy performance. That was a Soul Sonic Force remix. Then again, it’s not uncommon for Black MCs (yes, even the “wordy”, underground ones) to do things like sample different “ethnic”/”exotic” beats for their songs, take appropriative stage names (WTF ‘Papoose’ and ‘Saigon’ – that is seriously creepy that they took those names, esp. considering their “reasonings”)…I could go on.
Oh, and just because I brought up well-known artists as examples doesn’t mean you have to go to task on them (or me). There *are* people who truly love hip-hop that occasionally do things like listen to the radio or mainstream artists. (God forbid we have souls.) Guess what? Immortal Technique bores the living daylights out of me. Why? He talks a whole lotta nothing and, personally, I’d rather listen to Chino XL or–*gasp!*–Lil Jon than some run-of-the-mill “socially conscious” diatribe. Anyway, I’m more of a BRWN BFLO, Bambu, Blue Scholars, Kiwi…and I really could go on…kinda girl, myself. There are hella intelligent MCs that aren’t contrived lyric-slinging, up-tight, pseudo-”revolutionary”, homophobic, sexist, downright oppressive white Hispanic guys stuck on the cross. (Hey, just being real about him.) At least MCs like Lil Jon don’t proclaim to be anything special or different. Ain’t nothing special about Immortal Technique. Ain’t nothing different about him, either…nothing different about yet another macktivist MC with an out of control ego for the backpackers.

Posted 17 May 2009 at 5:12 am ¶
Nan wrote:

@m.: Ok…Soooo, its impossible for Bambu, BRWN BFLO, Blue Scholars(I actually listen to them)and Kiwi, to be appropriators because according to you, where would us ”darkies” have been without you to help us create this art . KK, I gotcha. Soooo when I see a Mexican kid, who’s donning(and where I’m from would just as quickly call me a ”mayate”)hip hop gear as they bump that latest cut by whomever, he’s not appropriating cuz he’s part of the brown cultures that helped the ”artistically challenged black folk create hip hop.”

You point out Saigon and Papoose as appropriators because these artists aren’t Viet or Native, but you give the artists you mentioned a pass because people from their cultures were all ”chillin and mixin beats with the black folks” at its inception. Yeah effing right.

Then you say,”This really reminds me a lot of when people talk about cumbia, saying it’s purely a product of the African diaspora…when in actuality, it wouldn’t exist in the first place without the Indigenous peoples of that region.” AND IT WOULDN’T EXIST IF THE BLACKS HAD NEVER ARRIVED THERE EITHER. So never get it twisted.

I’ll say this slowly: In order for hip hop, and many other forms of music and dance to have happened, black people, from Côte d’Ivoire, Ghana, and various other countries in the West of Africa, had to ”take that trip” to the various existing slave hotspots throughout the Americas and Carribean of the time. Depending on the area, they might have merged their cultures with what was left of the indigenous population’s cultures, as well the European cultures.

I understand the mixed roots of some cultural arts, but hip hop, at least the original american brand, is almost PAINSTAKINGLY black american rooted. It came from blues, jazz, and other BLACK AMERICAN MUSIC. I see NOTHING relating to Asian, or Native culture in hip hop’s roots. Just because some idiots(Soul Sonic Force and Outkast) decide to run around stage in a distorted version of native ceremonial dress, doesn’t mean that you get to say Native cultures helped create hip hop. Asian cultures didn’t either. And, ftr, I do find redface problematic because it’s disgusting and offensive; just as much as black, or yellow face. Even offensive mascots and team names like Washington Redskins(can’t believe they won that case), Kansas City Chiefs, and that’s just one sport, and one aspect of media. I could go on and on about this offensive shit.

Carribean, and a few hispanics(South Bronx remember?) contributed to creation yes, but as far as anyone else, THE GROUNDWORK WAS ALREADY LAID BY AMERICAN BLACKS.

Immortal Technique is ignorant, and flawed, and that’s why I like him. I never said he was a perfect MC. At least he says what the f*** is on his mind instead of pandering for radio play. And I listen to radio rap from time to time too, and… so? Chino XL is an over hyped attention whore, a coward who disses dead men not around to defend themselves. I’m glad his 15 minutes are up. Never seen him in my hood.

The closest I normally get to ”backpack rap”(when listening to american artists) is Del tha Funkee Homosapien, or Blackalicious because I normally can’t relate to some guy/girl who has never seen what I’ve seen. I grew up in Deep East Oakland, and since you say ”hella”, I’m gonna assume you’re from somewhere in the Bay too. Apparently somewhere where people allow you to ‘’smell yourself” on hip hop’s creation without checking your ass. Well not me. And another thing, when I was growing up, nobody other than blacks and a handful of ”others” who thought they were black, were thinking about hip hop. Now everyone jumps on the bandwagon to take credit for its creation. Just be happy you’re part of it now and stfu.

Posted 18 May 2009 at 1:47 pm ¶
mireh wrote:

Factors to add into these considerations:

-The assumption that these Korean music groups are wholly foreign and then crossing a line into taking American music, which is then more easily to grapple with, but even your own research points out that Tiger JK was raised in the US. Likewise, many of Korea’s prominent artists today are Korean American or have spent time in America. Not just artists, but artist/producers such as Teddy Park of 1TYM (Korean is his second language!).

-Understanding that “nigger” or “nigga” is a politically-charged word, but putting that in context and respecting that the use of a word does not define a person. For example, Tiger JK’s wife is another Korean African American artist, Tasha (or T). Check out her song “Black Happiness.” It talks about life as a multi-racial person growing up (her father is African American and her mother is Korean).

Also, consider the presence of US army in South Korea and other countries. If one wants to start pointing fingers about who is appropriating what (and I strongly feel this is a futile style and strategy for argumentation) then “we” in the US might not be so confident to assert that “other” people are stealing “our” stuff.

I love music. But I especially love hip hop. I think it’s because of the politically charged stories that can surface more often within this genre than some other genres of music. And those struggle and arguments are part of poetry. Come on, world. Poetry and spoken performances are a part of what people do in general. There are cases of appropriation in which legal action can be taken, but when credit is given where its due then let the music be re-thought and re-sung. Even within “our” culture you can see a prominent artist such as “Lady Gaga” being remixed by artists such as Queen Latifah, Kayne, Common, etc. I love Coolio’s Gangsta’s Paradise, but I also love DJ DOC’s parody by the same name translated into Korean. It’s part imitation, part re-creation. If it bother’s one on principle, they can simply not listen. But I don’t think there are grounds to call it wrong or to feel entitled to eradicating “copyism.” Then music as we know it would have to come to a halt. Who’s original? Noone, just that some are more delusional in thinking they are. We are specific and particularly us, and yet who we are comes from history, environment, and so on.

A quote:

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is nonexistent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery—celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: ‘It’s not where you take things from—it’s where you take them to.’ ”
-Jim Jarmusch

Posted 20 May 2009 at 4:53 pm ¶
mireh wrote:

please excuse the grammatical errors and try to glean my gist!

mille grazie~

in Korean,
GAHM-sah-HAHB-ni-DAH!
(iambic pentameter?) lol

Posted 20 May 2009 at 4:57 pm ¶
Nan wrote:

Lol, now nothing is original because noone wants to leave the roots of hip hop be. I’ve figured it out. Because these Korean artists are CLEARLY appropriating(although its no biggie)everybody and their mama’s bending over backwards to point out that ”blacks do it too”. Or they’re trying to say blacks didn’t create hip hop without their help. I’m gonna run around rocking a hanbok, while playing what would be considered traditionally Korean music. I’ll make sure that I say I’m not appropriating because black folks helped create it. See how well that goes over…meh
btw, Yoon Mi Rae is half black?WOW… I always thought she was Korean(ethnically). Well, I can’t understand what she’s saying, but her Forget Me(or is it Did You Forget Me?) is one of my favorite songs, sad song. How is her being half black a factor though? She seems to be more immersed in her Korean heritage. ah well.

Posted 22 May 2009 at 12:40 pm ¶
Olivia wrote:

Don’t mind people playing historically black created music (there’s LOTS of it, now that I think about it, most of it is), but then they gotta drop their stereotypical view of black people and stop their racism. Cos that REALLY pisses me off

Posted 28 May 2009 at 2:12 pm ¶