Comments

1. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

   AP classes, what a joke… people in my high school who took AP classes weren’t even THAT smart. I knew more about history and politics than those morons ever did yet I was never enrolled in any AP classes. I’ve heard so many stories about stupid, ignorant, privileged white kids enrolled in AP classes, from my brother and his friends.

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 12:01 pm ¶

2. vodalus wrote:

   The thing about AP courses is the standardization of the evaluation. Taking the AP exam at the end creates a national comparison of what people have learned.

   That said, the standardization and the “teaching to the test” aspect is pretty limiting in terms of what goes into the curriculum. This is particularly the case for teachers who don’t feel comfortable (or compelled) to branch out to cover interesting, irrelevant topics.

   AP classes are incredibly advantageous to kids relegated to low quality schools (urban or rural) because it gives them an opportunity to demonstrate to colleges that they are competitive on a national level. It isn’t about being “that smart”.

   Frankly, I just take offense at your insults. Its one thing to criticize the lack of social awareness in the AP curriculum, but there’s no need to stereotype AP students as morons who aren’t as good as they think they are. I know of many AP students who were all too aware that their previous classes had left them under-prepared and who were incredibly insecure about their classwork. I know of many who were into socio-political causes and history. There were also plenty of privileged, ignorant white kids.

   What you get in any class in a high school is a slice of that high school’s population, in turn a representation of the school district. I’m not going to argue that your experience at your high school isn’t true, but I am going to argue that it isn’t true everywhere. And I argue that it isn’t acceptable to insult kids who are just doing what they can to pursue an education by calling them stuck-up idiots.

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 1:48 pm ¶

3. Aishtamid wrote:

   I took AP classes in high school, and they were mostly white and privileged. But AP classes look a hell of a lot better on college applications, and I don’t think you can blame them for taking APs. I would go so far to say that it is a right. People should be allowed to take what classes they want. I also think that it’s patently unfair to deny some students the benefit of an AP class on their college applications because their schools don’t have them. I’m sure this affects poor and minority students disproportionately. I feel the same way about art, science and gym classes: some schools have them and some schools don’t. The kids in the schools that don’t have them absolutely deserve the opportunity to take them.

   And BTW, DIMA should reconsider making blanket judgments on the people who take AP classes.

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 1:49 pm ¶

4. spacedcowgirl wrote:

   @DIMA! –I am white, and I am certainly privileged, and I’m not trying to be confrontational at all here–I’m just not sure I am understanding why you have seem to such a negative view of AP on the whole. I do think it should be more inclusive, as the article suggests, because then even more kids can test out of basic college classes. Why pay exorbitant 4-year tuition rates to take English or 100-level chemistry or calculus when you have already demonstrated that you know the material? A lot of those types of classes are no more difficult at a university or community college than they are in high school, so it makes sense not to have to sit through them again.

   I agree, if in practice it is rich privileged white kids that are getting into the classes, and therefore gaining even more benefits than they already have by skipping ahead once they get to college, then that would be a bad thing. But do you think it is possible to set up an AP/college prep type system that could benefit all kids, or is the whole premise flawed in your opinion?

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 2:28 pm ¶

5. spacedcowgirl wrote:

   Oops, Aishtamid’s comment wasn’t up when I was writing mine. Sorry for any redundancy or appearance of piling on.

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 2:28 pm ¶

6. Paz wrote:

   I took a number of AP classes and in general I felt that the students were more willing to learn and engage in concentration. My school is overwhelmingly Asian (esp Filipino) so I never experienced the white privilege thing in those classes.

   -”Mommy, why is she following us?” Brilliant.

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 2:56 pm ¶

7. Paz wrote:

   Sorry. That meant to read “engage in discussion.”

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 2:56 pm ¶

8. vodalus wrote:

   Even though I have a comment that isn’t up yet, I sense the trend. Its going to be an interesting day for Latoya, I’m sure.

   Anyways: new topic! Chinese Drywall?

   I saw a Yahoo article on this story several weeks ago and my immediate thought was That’s Racist! And then I read the article and saw that it really was just a problem with Chinese suppliers and had to do with the minerals present in the Chinese mines. I’ve poked my nose into other articles and most of them didn’t really dwell on the Chinese aspect as much as the Deadly Drywall aspect.

   So, for once, this doesn’t feel like a xenophobic scare perpetuated because its so easy to hate on China. But at the same time, most people probably don’t bother to read the articles and just see the headlines. So the information being provided in those headlines (China makes dangerous drywall) is pretty racist. The problem with the drywall is the result of geology and has nothing to do with China as a nation or a culture.

   I don’t know. I find the dichotomy of anti-drywall content and anti-China headline to be interesting.

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 3:02 pm ¶

9. queerhapa wrote:

   Re: the Boston review article: Speaking as a social scientist here, “How much to blame were the Jews for the financial crisis?” is a freaking HORRIBLY designed question. “How much to blame” implies that the group in question is to blame, at least a little bit. And using the term “the Jews” is a deliberate provocation of stereotyping, reducing a extremely diverse group of millions of people into a monolithic entity. “The Jews”? Come on now. Seriously.

   Would they have gotten different answers had they asked “Do you think Jews were to blame for the financial crisis?” or “Do you think any particular groups were to blame for the financial crisis?” or the more open-ended “Who do you think was to blame for the financial crisis?”

   Posted 08 May 2009 at 5:07 pm ¶

10. ktrujillo wrote:

    My neighborhood high school is 75%Latino and offers a great selection of AP courses that are populated by mostly non-white children. Far from being “a joke” they are very important to the kids who take them and have helped to significantly increase our college acceptance rate.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 5:36 pm ¶

11. B wrote:

    I’m one of those “morons” who took AP classes, (thank you very much, DIMA, blanket statements like that really provide deep analysis!) and different ones were handled in different ways at my school.

    History and Gov’t, presumably based on their popularity, required a test to get in. This always seemed really, really pointless and counterproductive to me. I took each of those tests and thought at the end, “I didn’t know a single thing!” It was mostly based on information that you’d learn IN the class. It was so clear to me, even at 16, that the proper way to handle the situation was to provide more spots on the schedule for the classes, rather than culling down the number of students who took them.

    I also took AP Lit. It was so unpopular (it was only offered senior year, and by that time, most people wanted to go a less-challenging route) that only 22 people out of my class of 500 signed up. No one had to take any tests or pass any requirements. It was the most difficult class I took in high school, and from what I saw my dorm-mates doing in college, more difficult than freshman-year English 101 classes. I didn’t do so well, but I felt like I learned so much. This seemed to me the proper way to handle AP classes – if it’s a subject that a student wants to be challenged in, they should have every right to sign up. If they get their ass kicked, like I did, it’s up to the student to decide to keep trying or else transfer to a regular English class at the end of the quarter.

    I opted not to take any science AP classes, since science bored me (I wish that back then I’d had the desire to tackle difficult things or things that I’m not familiar with), so I’m not sure what the entry process was for those. But it aligned with my view that each student should get to choose the difficulty of the subjects they’re learning.

    In the end, my outlook on AP classes means that all high schools should be able to offer all students the chance to give themselves an extra challenge in their chosen subjects. Measuring the “success” of the AP program in my mind ties directly to the number of high school students in the country who are able to choose to participate.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 6:30 pm ¶

12. B wrote:

    I forgot to add, in my rant about the pointlessness of the tests for my school’s AP History and Gov’t classes – I passed both and made it into both classes. And I have no idea why, because I guessed on almost all of the multiple choice questions (as I said, the tests tested on what we would learn in the class!). To this day I think it was an arbitrary and poorly-thought-out method of dealing with the number of students who wanted to take it.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 6:33 pm ¶

13. Sobia wrote:

    @queerhapa:

    As a fellow social scientist I concur.

    Re: Melissa Harris-Lacewell and being followed while shopping

    Just today while shopping I couldn’t help but notice the lack of friendliness among retail clerks. Its quite off-putting and you don’t want to assume its racism but when you see them treating white customers differently you can’t help but wonder….

    Re: Muslim in Europe

    Instead of the article writing “”European Muslims have much more loyalty to the countries they live in than is generally believed, a survey says” it should say

    “”European Muslims have much more loyalty to the countries they live in than is stereotyped…”

    I mean, really? Many of those Muslims only know Europe as home. What the hell else did people expect? A more pertinent finding is the Islamophobia of the non-Muslim Europeans.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 6:59 pm ¶

14. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Oh wow, that link got a huge reaction. Yet everyone focused on DIMA’s comments, and no one looked at the question posed in the article? Should AP classes be limited to kids with previously demonstrated aptitude, or should they be open admission?

    AP classes are great – if you can get them. However, in some ways, DIMA is right; they can be tools of segregation – in both of my predominantly POC high schools, there was a very high level of white students in AP, less so in the other courses I took. Some of that was aptitude of students, some of it was discouragement of the gatekeepers of those classes, and some of it was a method to segregate.

    AP Classes are important – they can be very beneficial, even if the students just take one class. But there are a lot of race/class obstacles to AP.

    For example, I took three AP classes in high school, and took the AP test for two, aced one, passed the other. To me, AP tests always felt a bit more fair than the SAT. The folks in my school were all going to Kaplan to boost their score, and if you didn’t have hundreds of dollars laying around, you were out of luck on that front.

    With AP classes, you had a much longer time to absorb the material and the test focused on those skills. While there were prep books for AP tests, I don’t remember using those books – I just went to class and did well enough.

    But AP was an economic hardship – I had wanted to take six total AP classes and the tests associated with them, but my need to work afterschool coupled with the cost of the exam (and even though my household income reduced the price of the exam by half) severely limited how far I could go into the AP world.

    While I really enjoyed the AP courses I took in school, and believe more kids would benefit from taking them, I have serious issues with how they are set up and presented, as well as the associated costs.

    As for the college benefit, it was useful – but not all that useful. It was great to skip freshman English, but I didn’t go straight to school right away; many of the kids in my AP class *still* ended up at community college or working straight out of high school. The fact that AP benefits you in terms of furthering your education works, but also feeds into the idea that only college bound kids should have access.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 7:12 pm ¶

15. Paz wrote:

    @B – Wow, that’s so weird that you had to take a test to get into the class. In my school, if you passed Honors English you were automatically placed into AP English. If you were in regular English I think you had to get an A and obtain permission from the instructor.

    @Sobia – Thanks, I totally forgot to comment on the Muslims in Europe article. Hey, look at that! Turns out many of them might actually not want to bomb us!
    How about a study revealing how many white Europeans are loyal to Europe? And what do they mean by loyal anyway? Willing to die for your country? Thinking it’s the best place on Earth? Yeesh.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 7:39 pm ¶

16. vodalus wrote:

    I think that comment got so much attention because it was the first thing anyone saw in response to the links–and it full of insulting stereotypes. I also think that the fundamental question in the article isn’t something that can be as easily discussed as addressing DIMA’s comments.

    The AP courses as they stand are a valuable if imperfect tool. The trouble about making them more accessible is to me a question of money. It takes money for the school to hire capable teachers, to meet accreditation requirements, and to host multiple classes of the same course. It also takes money for the student to have time to do the necessary homework, to take the exams and to follow up on those exams by going to college…

    I don’t know. Even if all the money issues were resolved, the direct question of whether a C student should be admitted to an AP course is still tricky. All students deserve an interesting and informative education. But not all students are prepared (or encouraged) to pursue higher level coursework. Since its not possible to drop an AP course before its too late, there’s not much incentive to take academic risks. No one wants to a student to fail, particularly the student!

    Maybe that’s the reason that there’s racial disparity in fast-track courses. Black and latino kids are told that they aren’t as smart or that they won’t do well, so they avoid the classes from the beginning. Asian kids are often told that they will succeed in classes, so there’s a disproportionate number in Honors/AP classes.

    Its tricky to parse out anything about the problem. There’s money issues, stereotype issues, probably gatekeeper issues and a whole host of others.

    I’d personally like to see more students in fast-track classes, but I don’t want to let in someone who won’t succeed in the program. That does a disservice to everyone. But filtering out who’s a good prospect is going to be inherently biased.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 7:48 pm ¶

17. Miles Ellison wrote:

    Blaming Jews for the economic crisis? Really? I wonder if the people responsible for this survey took AP classes, and if so, did they learn anything?

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 7:51 pm ¶

18. B wrote:

    @Latoya Peterson:

    I definitely tried to answer the question posed (AP classes should be for any student who wants to challenge themselves), but your comment made me start thinking about who AP classes are perceived to be for, or more to the point, who education is perceived to be for. The responses of some of the teachers and students in that article seem to align with what I’ve been feeling so often, that education is for the educators, not the students. Standardized tests, AP tests, grades, etc. all are considered to reflect on the educator first, and students second. School funding and teacher performance reviews hinge on how well the students do. Whereas my response to the AP article was, “The AP program is a success if all students get to choose to challenge themselves in their chosen subjects,” which is student-centric, the answer that some of those respondents had was, “The AP program is a success if all the students do well in it, and we can ensure it’s a success by only letting in those who will succeed.” That’s educator-centric, and completely not who our school system should be focused on – and yet there were people surveyed for the article who completely disagree with me on that point. Which just blows my mind.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 8:14 pm ¶

19. kate wrote:

    I don’t think that AP classes should necessarily be open to everyone… My AP classes, particularly Spanish, Chemistry and European History, were SO valuable to me because I was surrounded by students who were working hard, cared about the material, and made coming to class fun. AP English was less exciting in large part because the class dynamic was different. To get into AP Chemistry you had to have taken “Advanced chemistry” earlier on – although this wasn’t set in stone! I hadn’t taken advanced chemistry but I had done well in the “regular” version and asked the teacher and because she knew I loved the subject I was still able to take the course. AP Euro had a reputation as being really hard because it was only one semester long. But AP English was a year long, it had no requirements, and half the class was there because they wanted to be in a more advanced English class while the other half was there so they could put it on their resumes.

    what about the rights of the kids who ARE doing well, have demonstrated they can do well, and DO value the class time with kids who care about the work and can do higher level work? I think that the idea of a pledge before the start of the class is a really good one. That way kids will be held accountable to actually do the work, participate meaningfully in class, come prepared, and not waste time. But in some cases some people (and in my case all those people were white and I hated them being in class with me..) just aren’t prepared to have as in-depth discussions as AP courses should (IMO) require of students. I am sorry if kids feel stupid because they don’t have the prerequisites or gpa or whatever to get into the AP class that will look good when they are applying to college, but they aren’t the only kids who should be considered. Some people will blossom when they are given challenges. Some people just aren’t up to the challenge. I’m so tired of the assumption that the ones that care about their work, suffer the teasing and insulting of other students because they’re nerds, enjoy their AP classes for the material rather than the prestige, and actually do the reading instead of the sparknotes will just take care of themselves. Opening AP classes isn’t going to change the culture of anti-intellectualism pervading American society right now.

    Also: I didn’t get any college credit for my AP tests even though I had 5’s and 4’s, but that’s the nature of my college…overinflated ego. But for what it’s worth, at this school anyway, if your school doesn’t offer AP’s then not having AP classes doesn’t hurt your application.

    That said: I recognize that race comes into play far too often when determining who is up to the challenge and who isn’t. And like Latoya said, there is a serious problem with them in that the tests are wildly expensive (coming in at $75 a pop if I remember correctly!). I guess I just… I got so much out of my AP courses and I would hate to see that watered down. They were so important to me in reinforcing that being smart was OK and not some kind of…disease… especially in science. But I know not all AP courses are as good as mine were. And I know it’s not fair. And even a pledge wouldn’t fix that, because students of color would probably be more likely to be targeted as failing to uphold their pledge. I just.. I think the problem runs deeper than AP, and for me (and I’m sure others) AP was one way to get away from a culture of idiocy/sports being okay but liking literature analysis and science wasn’t, and opening AP won’t fix that.

    Also: for what it’s worth, my AP English class did a lot more reading by authors of color and queer authors than any of the other English classes. Maybe that’s why our class discussions were never as good… a lot of the people in the class hated having to read “diversity” books… I was probably a little prick about it too but looking back I feel really blessed that my white, straight male teacher just happened to have a deep interest in making overprivileged white kids read that stuff.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 8:31 pm ¶

20. Sobia wrote:

    @ Paz:

    “How about a study revealing how many white Europeans are loyal to Europe? And what do they mean by loyal anyway? Willing to die for your country? Thinking it’s the best place on Earth? Yeesh.”

    Good questions! I’ve always been confused by what ‘loyal’ really meant. My understanding has been that loyalty means supporting your country unconditionally.

    Speaking in regards to recent immigrants, or children of, specifically:

    So many cannot fathom that people can have multiple loyalties. That is seen as treasonous. But this also demonizes the nature of immigration. People can have multiple loyalties for a number of reasons.

    When one migrates it can’t be easy to cut ties with the country in which one was born, or in which one’s family lives. I was born in Canada but I still feel a strong attachment to Pakistan as well. I couldn’t cut ties with the country – and I’ve tried.

    The assumption regarding those who immigrate is that we/they came here for “a better life.” Therefore, it follows that the country one came from must be worse somehow. Therefore, of course your loyalties will be with the “new” home. Forget the fact that so many do not experience a “better life.” Uzma Shakir, one of favourite Canadian activists has said “I was liberated in Pakistan, based on my class and family support. In Canada I feel very oppressed, marginalized. ” If you are oppressed in the country you live in how much loyalty will you feel to your oppressor? Nonetheless, despite the fact that so many of us are oppressed we still do feel loyal to our country – the one we live in. Not sure exactly why, but a part of me suspects its a healthy stubborn desire to make our own space here – we’re here to stay damn it so you sure as hell better make room for us!

    But the problem of doubting our loyalty still remains. It can be extremely complex for those with the multiple loyalties as well. For instance, what happens when the country you live in, and identify with, is at war and killing people in the country you, or your family, came from?

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 8:33 pm ¶

21. Aishtamid wrote:

    About that Boston Review survey:

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I agree with Sobia and queerhapa in saying that the question is poorly designed. I would have been much more concerned by this had the question been worded “what group of people is most responsible for the economic crisis” and a third of them had picked Jews. As it stands, I think the old Jewish financial cabal stereotyped was placed over people’s heads through that question. It seemed as if the survey was meant to provoke; they dangled the stereotype in front of people to see who would bite. I’m more concerned about those who can come up with Jew-hating on their own with no encouragement, like the Wesleyan shooter who’s been all over the news.

    The only thing that got to me was that twice the number of Democrats as Republicans bit on the blame the Jews thing. Do you guys realize that 80% of us voted for Obama?

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 9:02 pm ¶

22. vodalus wrote:

    See, I was scandalized at just how many people did take the bite and blame “the Jews”. It seems to me that the ease with which they were able to dig out anti-Semitism is truly frightening. What really kills me is to look at that graphic and realize that the white part includes people who blamed Jews just “a little”. As if blaming a whole race of people “just a little” isn’t still being racist.

    my response to the AP article was, “The AP program is a success if all students get to choose to challenge themselves in their chosen subjects,” which is student-centric, the answer that some of those respondents had was, “The AP program is a success if all the students do well in it, and we can ensure it’s a success by only letting in those who will succeed.” That’s educator-centric, and completely not who our school system should be focused on – and yet there were people surveyed for the article who completely disagree with me on that point.

    See, I disagree that limiting access in order to promote success rates isn’t advantageous to the student. A student in high school who isn’t able to handle the workload doesn’t have the ability to option out of it. They’re stuck and will be penalized with a low grade, which will in turn affect their future. I think that educator resistance to admitting low-performance students is partially a reluctance to deal with someone who will need extra help and also a reluctance to punish someone who’s aspirations exceed their ability.

    Which of course, runs right back into racism/sexism. The ways that educators guess about who will be successful are notorious for being biased against POC and women.

    All this makes me wish that high schools could constuct themselves in such a way as to allow kids to drop or ascend a level in instruction within the first few weeks. That way kids could try a course and see if it met their needs before spending a whole semester (or year) taking it. But, ugh, can you imagine the logistics for that?

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 10:18 pm ¶

23. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @voldalus –

    Even if all the money issues were resolved, the direct question of whether a C student should be admitted to an AP course is still tricky. All students deserve an interesting and informative education. But not all students are prepared (or encouraged) to pursue higher level coursework.

    No one wants to risk a student failing – but does that stifle success? To be quite honest, a lot of kids disengage from school because they aren’t challenged by the material. I was lucky – I got the mark early on in my school career to be considered gifted, so I was often offered things that would normally be closed to students. (I also moved a lot, so I would normally spend about 6 or so months in regular classes before teachers caught on and moved me somewhere else.)

    I think this duality – being assigned to both gifted and regular classes is what makes me wary about trying to chop kids up into kids who are motivated and unmotivated. When I took AP Language and Composition, they offered two of those classes, taught by the same professor. One was for kids in an existing program, which was deemed by some to be a way to separate the richer children from the poorer district they lived in (now, all that is relative, and it isn’t an accurate picture of the program, but the criticism is valid on some levels). The other was for kids like me – not in the program, but with aptitude. Caring about the subject and being invested in it varied from book to book and we got to exercise a little autonomy in what we did. Contrast this to other classes where you were generally forced just to do some work.

    Also, kids marked as gifted tend to get a lot more slack from teachers. Lazy with potential meant my teachers tried to challenge me more; if my friends were lazy, they were told to go to vocational school.

    There is also the question of what past grade performance actually means. I’m a lazy student – this is why I didn’t finish college. My report cards are generally A/Ds, not much in between. Either I’m engaged or I am not. In some places, AP classes are locked into a sort of curriculum where you have to take certain things to excel to others. I do well with English, psych, composition, anything having to do with essays and analysis – so those are the AP classes I took. I don’t do well with the maths and the sciences (beyond theory) so AP Calc and AP Chem where things I was never interested in. However, some schools mix these all together, requiring you to take a mix of AP classes if you are in that track. That’s what I think is unfair – I shouldn’t be prohibited from taking AP US History if I can’t get past basic algebra. It’s a different skill set. But some places don’t see it that way.

    @B –

    That’s educator-centric, and completely not who our school system should be focused on – and yet there were people surveyed for the article who completely disagree with me on that point.

    Exactly. Past performance is just one indicator of success. And teachers can make all the difference in a child’s life. In my junior year, I was approached by one of my former teachers and asked to take her AP US History course. I hadn’t done amazingly well in her class – I think I had a b average – but she said that I would benefit from it and was saving a spot for me.

    (I later moved, so I was unable to take the class.)

    It wasn’t a class I would have sought out – but sometimes, an instructor has the power to influence your life in ways you don’t realize until later.

    @kate –

    what about the rights of the kids who ARE doing well, have demonstrated they can do well, and DO value the class time with kids who care about the work and can do higher level work?

    We’re the kids that will do fine in life. What about the kids who need more help discovering what they are good at? Lots of schools build in provisions and programs for the best and worst students – but what about the kids in the middle?

    I got so much out of my AP courses and I would hate to see that watered down.

    What makes you think opening the courses to students who *want* to take these classes would water things down? You can’t dumb down an AP curriculum – the final exam sees to that. Your comment speaks to AP classes as sanctuary, which I don’t really agree with. That’s part of the reason that I felt DIMA’s comment – you said that you didn’t think just everyone could handle AP and they can’t. But I recall the privileged white kids DIMA referred to being in AP just because. They weren’t interested in the work. They never even came close to my scores. But they were white and well-off with parents who did shit like come to PTA meetings, and they were in the classes too – even if they just cracked jokes or took naps. (Minority kids in AP? We knew we couldn’t play that shit in our class.) So I feel like the requirements are put in place to discourage “the wrong people” from access AP courses and heaven forbid, learning something. And as someone who has seen the difference when people think you are gifted versus when people think you are average, I say open it up.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 10:21 pm ¶

24. kate wrote:

    mmm touche. I suppose you have me convinced there.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 10:34 pm ¶

25. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @kate –

    I want to make sure I’m clear – I hear you on your frustration, and I understand why you would want to keep AP for those who are motivated – it works best that way. But the ways in which we determine motivation are really flawed and it really isn’t anyone’s fault – the school system is flawed and doesn’t provide good support to teachers or students.

    But, because of my patchy school career, I do get a little wary when people start ranking kids. I’ll write a piece someday about the differences in the schools I went to and how the school’s attitude toward the kids it was educating made such a large difference about the quality of learning.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 10:39 pm ¶

26. B wrote:

    @vodalus – is it not normal to be able to drop to a lower-level class in most schools? My senior year of high school, I bit off more than I could chew with an honors trig/calc math class, and the teacher was not willing to give me any extra help (she actually told me that it was an affront to her as a teacher that I didn’t understand the things she taught the first time around!), so I went to my guidance counselor and she moved me down to a non-honors version of the same class before the first quarter was even up. It saved me so much grief.

    @kate – I think your concerns are misplaced – opening the AP door to the students who want the challenge and yet generally have lower grades is not going to water things down. I’m really skeptical that too many students would sign up for a class that they know is extra work that they’re not willing to do. Like I said, my AP Lit class didn’t have ANY prerequisites because so few people took it. It and the teacher were notoriously hard. The only people who signed up weren’t mindless I-want-AP-prestige drones, they were game. My high school classmates that I can think of who would have disrupted the academic environment – they were filling their senior year with every easy out they could think of.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 10:47 pm ¶

27. vodalus wrote:

    I actually agree with a fair amount of what you have to say, Latoya. I’m just so verbose that I don’t get it out the right way.

    What I mean by “underprepared” is kids who want to take Calculus when they barely finished Algebra. One blog I read is by a college adjunct who basically every two days discusses a student like that trying to beg his way into a class he won’t be able to pass.

    A lot of what you discuss is what I tried to allude to by way of lack of encouragement. Whether its from home, peers or teachers, kids without socio-economic privilege are routinely discouraged from pursuing academic challenges. Or have been instilled with low self-esteem such that they believe without being told that they shouldn’t even try.

    I really do agree that AP needs to be made more accessible. I just feel cynical our educational system and the resources available to it.

    I think that what really forces the use of gatekeepers is the fact that once a student is in a course, its either pass it or fail it. As far as I know about high schools, there aren’t many options for a student to transfer into something at a different level without special effort. This makes educators reluctant to admit people with poor past performance. It also makes it daunting for smart kids who don’t feel secure in their abilities. Those two elements are going to conspire against a good number of people.

    But I am going to fight tooth and nail about calling AP students as a group insular morons. Especially when I’ve known it to make a real difference for so many kids. The people who have really benefited don’t deserve to be maligned like that.

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 11:01 pm ¶

28. kate wrote:

    yeah, I’m clear Latoya and I do think you’re right. And you as well, B. I especially agree that the ways we measure motivation are flawed, and I do agree (and said before, though maybe not clearly) that the ways we measure motivation are flawed, and kids of color are disproportionately marked as “unmotivated.” And I want to be clear as well, that at no point was I trying to insinuate that people who had never taken hard classes or had academic success definitely shouldn’t be allowed in… I think maybe I come from a slightly different perspective because at my high school, the AP’s that didn’t have prerequisites were the ones that everyone took junior or senior year to slap them on their resumes- AP Psych, AP Bio, AP English, etc… they were “jokes” and everyone knew it…. so that’s why the classes that were open just weren’t on the same level as the classes that weren’t. Which sparked a visceral reaction in me because I had a HORRIBLE high school experience and my AP classes -were- a sanctuary. So in sum, I think B that maybe my concerns are misplaced for many places with APs. And I’m not disagreeing with either of you!

    Posted 08 May 2009 at 11:02 pm ¶

29. Jess wrote:

    The AP class thing hit me a bit because I had an interesting job interview question when I applied to be a teaching fellow in NYC.

    “Do you think minority and disadvantaged kids should be held to the same standards as others?”

    I told the woman that was a bit loaded as questions go. She asked why and I said that in a white suburb Kaplan is a cottage industry, and there’s all sorts of stuff you get (whatever color you are) and that gives you a big leg up. If I am dealing with kids who are behind already I can’t be expected to work miracles.

    That is, if I were teaching a math class and none of the high school seniors in the class has managed to pass or demonstrate skill in basic algebra, there is no way I can get them through to calculus by the end of the year. It’s just too much to cover, even with motivated students.

    That doesn’t mean you can’t make progress, and kids should be expected to get through the class, and master the material. It is hard, and some kids won’t do it. But anything worth a damn is hard.

    But it was interesting what she meant by standards. I look at it as getting someone to master certain things — I’m less concerned with how far you get than that you get right what is in front of you. Maybe this comes from teaching martial arts– you just can’t go on until you master, absolutely, the first steps. It doesn’t work.

    With AP classes, I always remember in my school the tracking system was such that you could move down, but it took a lot of fighting to move up. It created some odd situations, like a kid in AP history (when they offered it — budgets were dicey) who was in the voc-track math. (the track where they give up on you after 10th grade).

    It seems to me the problem is not just AP classes per se, but local school budgets (at my school, whether we even had an AP class depended on the town’s budget meeting that year, it was pretty hit or miss because the school was small — 800 kids or so — and offering a class for five people wasn’t considered worth it), whether there’s a support system in place to get the students the relevant help (hit or miss in every school) and how tired the guidance counselors are. I had one who was pretty engaged but I could tell that some days the poor guy was like “You know, I don’t feel like dealing with this, here’s the classes you should be in, goodbye.” He was, by the way, the only one in the school available to help anybody.

    Then there was the issue of how much the AP stuff mattered. My high school boasted that 90% of the kids went to college. Well, we had one kid (of 200) go to Harvard, one to Williams, one to MIT. A couple to B(oston) U.

    But most ended up at UNH or Salem State. Or Bridgewater. So it wasn’t like we were graduating scads of ivy leaguers. Now, I admit my biases here, coming from New England, but it seemed a shame that we had many top tier universities at the time within a couple of hours drive, were in a relatively wealthy (if small) town, and couldn’t get our shit together to produce anything more than so-so students. I felt like there was a real missed opportunity here, especially for the more working-class kids. Of course, the neighboring schools were a complete unmitigated disaster zone, so I guess these things are relative.

    On a larger issue, personally, I don’t think it would be a bad thing if they divvied up high school by subject– you don’t move on until you demonstrate you know the material, so you would take, say, algebra in 9th grade, and do it again until you get it right (say a B grade). Other kids the same age are ahead of you? Tough. You might be ahead of older kids too.

    It’s a disservice to set it up so that when you move up a grade your class choices seem, to me, to set some kids up for failure.

    I never recommended a promotion for a kid in my class who I didn’t trust to know the material.

    (For the MA enthusiasts reading this, that meant the relevant kata, the basic exercises, a certain amount of sparring technique, and knowing that stuff cold — no hesitation).

    I don’t see why academic subjects should be any different. The process for many is similar — you just can’t do calculus or trig without algebra, and you can’t do advanced science without the math.

    I’d also change the order of the sciences taught — I’d start with physics, then do chem, and then bio, which requires knowledge of the first two to make any sense at all.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 9:16 am ¶

30. Jess wrote:

    By the way, on the Jews and financial crisis thing — the question is not only worded badly, but I honestly don’t think it reflects how the majority of Americans think. That’s because the people who don’t blame Jews will respond with “What the hell kind of question is that?” and not answer.

    Not that the Jews/financial crisis connection isn’t there among the more right-wing populists — the Ron Paul crowd in particular. But it hasn’t gotten a load of traction with the electorate, as far as I can tell. The GOP leadership in this sense is in a bit of a bind, having built up “the base” since Goldwater and now having to fact the fact that your party is populated with pseudo-fascists.

    That segment could become more important, or not, depending on a load of things that aren’t necessarily connected. How the economy performs, for instance (if things get better the fascist fringe loses support), whether there is another war someplace to get people’s attention (if Obama says we need to send 100,000 troops to Pakistan you can bet the economic crisis might take a back seat, at least briefly) and how the GOP leadership reacts (are the Olympia Snowes and Susan Collinses of the party dead and buried?)

    Interestingly, when it comes to blame for the financial crisis, the attempts by many on the right to blame minorities –or any other group– don’t seem to have gotten much traction either — certainly the point appears in publications like Investor’s Business Daily or the Wall Street Journal, but it’s not something that I see too much of anywhere else– not even on FOX News.

    I haven’t got any scientific backing for this — It would be interesting to check — but perhaps the housing crisis, because it hit so many people, makes it harder to blame any one group. I mean, all those ads for low-rate mortgages were filled with white folks, and that says to me that that is who they were aiming at.

    Also, whenever they have a foreclosed person on TV, it’s as likely to be a white person (perhaps more so– I haven’t counted, but I can’t recall seeing a minority on there except here in NYC, where they make up much bigger chunks of the population than in say, Iowa).

    I mean, most folks don’t even know the Community Reinvestment Act exists. And it had nothing to do with subprime lending in any case.

    And while McCain’s surrogates tried to pin the blame on minorities during the campaign, well, we see how well that worked for him. You would have expected the places worst hit by the housing crisis to vote in greater numbers for him — and the opposite was true (Florida and Nevada in particular were both relatively big wins for Obama).

    But it would be interesting to ask just who people think is to blame without leading them to choices and see what they say.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 9:51 am ¶

31. SarahNicole wrote:

    Oh. I have so many thoughts re AP and education as a social right. I have a baby who is not taking his morning nap, and I have not had breakfast nor coffee, so I will have to ponder and attempt a contribution later…

    But mostly I think co-sign what Latoya said. I may have to get a t-shirt with that sentence on it, at least until I start getting my sleep back…

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 9:53 am ¶

32. Sobia wrote:

    @Jess:

    “That’s because the people who don’t blame Jews will respond with “What the hell kind of question is that?” and not answer. ”

    Not necessarily. If you have someone in authority asking you this question it is possible that respondants will somehow rationalize it by assuming that this person in authority must know what they’re talking about and must know something they don’t. They could assume that there MUST be some reason its being asked, even if they would normally not blame Jews. People will do the oddest of things when in the presence of an “authority” figure.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 10:44 am ¶

33. spacedcowgirl wrote:

    The discussion here about the biases and issues associated with AP has been much more in-depth and intelligent than anything I can contribute, so I will try not to ramble on too much about my opinions–I did try to address the question in the article in my first comment by saying that I do think AP classes should bias toward inclusiveness rather than selectivity, if only because of the point others on the thread have made–schools’ methods of deciding who “deserves” to be on the fast track, to go to college, or to be considered “gifted” are often flawed. It would be worse to withhold opportunity from a student who would benefit from it than it would be to just run the risk that some kids who can’t handle the material will end up enrolling.

    (Maybe there could be some kind of amnesty for students to transfer out into regular or plain college-prep classes if they get into the meat of the AP class and discover that they truly can’t handle it, due to the concerns about bad grades on one’s permanent record as voiced above.)

    But really I know it’s easy for me to say “admit all kids” (I’m sure most people would agree–and teachers would love it if this could happen–in principle) even though by doing so I am ignoring the financial, class size, and other constraints that would come into play. It’s just a complicated issue that I’m sure is exacerbated by the economy and poor school funding.

    I did want to respond to the following @Latoya because it confused me a little:

    The fact that AP benefits you in terms of furthering your education works, but also feeds into the idea that only college bound kids should have access.

    Well, I do think that only college bound kids (or kids who think they might eventually go to university or community college) should be taking AP classes. My understanding is that the concept of “Advanced Placement” on its own has only one useful purpose, and that is to allow you to place out of higher education classes in the subjects where you do well on the AP exam. In that respect an AP chemistry class would not be useful to a student who was not going to attend college (nor would it to a student who was undertaking a degree program that did not require any chemistry classes). I feel like the class and exam would just be a waste of money if you were in that position.

    That is NOT to say that non-college-bound students shouldn’t have access to challenging classes, honors classes, intensive classes, etc. if they want to take them–whatever an enhanced curriculum would look like in a given school. And if the AP class is the only such “advanced” class that can be offered at that school due to administrative constraints, then maybe a non-college-bound student could take the class to get the hopefully more advanced level of instruction (though I’m not even sure that would always be the best option because of the danger that the class ends up being more “teaching to the test” with less room for creative thinking or exploration), but opt out of taking the exam. I guess I just don’t see why a student would take the class plus the exam unless the ability to place out of the subject in college was actually of use to that student.

    I didn’t know that some schools require you to have a minimum GPA in all subjects to take any AP class. That does seem like a bad idea. I wasn’t eligible to take calculus in high school at all because I moved out of state and an extra year of math was required in the new state, so had my school required me to have a certain GPA in set classes across the curriculum just to take *any* AP class (and if one of those classes had been pre-calc/”advanced math,” which I didn’t take until my senior year), I may not have been eligible for the AP U.S. History and English that I did take.

    Funny story about being knocked down a peg: I always considered myself a good writer in high school, and I got a 5 on the English AP. But when I arrived at my undergraduate alma mater (a large state university) and took the writing placement test, I placed into the mainstream writing requirement rather than the honors class I fancied myself qualified for, which really bruised my small-fish-in-a-big-pond ego. I didn’t have to take the course anyway because of the AP credit, but at least it made me reexamine whether I was actually as much the shit as I had apparently thought.

    OK, the whole not rambling thing clearly did not happen. Sorry.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 1:03 pm ¶

34. spacedcowgirl wrote:

    Eh, I meant “big fish in a small pond,” but I suppose the other way is actually more accurate since I was not as big a fish as I thought.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 1:05 pm ¶

35. Matt wrote:

    using the term “the Jews” is a deliberate provocation of stereotyping, reducing a extremely diverse group of millions of people into a monolithic entity.

    That’s actually the point. When the question is framed “are Jews to blame..” as it has been elsewhere, the criticism is that some people will answer “sure, some Jews are to blame.”

    As for the question suggesting that the Jews are to blame at least a little, I agree with vodalus:
    

    See, I was scandalized at just how many people did take the bite and blame “the Jews”. It seems to me that the ease with which they were able to dig out anti-Semitism is truly frightening.

    Btw, the overall number there is pretty consistent with other surverys. Of course, they all get criticized by people who don’t think it’s likely, but still they show similar numbers.

    More importantly, I almost always focus on relative proportions in polls. Almost twice as many Democrats as Republicans “bit” on the question. That is what I think is far more important because it runs so blatantly counter to the notion that antisemitism only exists among white supremacists.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 2:49 pm ¶

36. queerhapa wrote:

    That may be the point, Matt, but it’s still bad science that produces unreliable statistics. You can’t build bias into your research design and then act outraged that people are expressing bias.

    “How much are the blacks to blame for crime?”
    “How much are the Muslims to blame for terrorism?”
    “How much are the gays to blame for pedophilia?”

    There is no logical way to answer these questions without falling into the bias trap of the question, other than to refuse to answer, as Jess suggests. Even answering “not at all” on the Likert scale still implies some sort of fundamental agreement with the framing of the question. That is, if I say “No, the Jews are not to blame at all,” or “No, the blacks are not to blame at all,” or “No, the Muslims are not to blame at all,” etc., my answer implies that I understand “The Jews” et al as monolithic categories.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 6:10 pm ¶

37. queerhapa wrote:

    This is from the Wikipedia entry on loaded questions:

    “Loaded question, also known as complex question, presupposition, “trick question”, or plurium interrogationum (Latin, “of many questions”), is an informal fallacy or logical fallacy.[1] It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner’s agenda.[1] An example of this is the question “Are you still beating your wife?” Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife, and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 6:16 pm ¶

38. Ruchama wrote:

    On the AP classes and kids wanting to take them: at my high school, the rule was that each year’s teachers would recommend which level each kid would go into the next year. If a kid wanted to take a higher level class than the one recommended, they were allowed to if their parent signed a form. From what I saw, there were FAR more cases of the parent wanting the kid to have a course that looked better on a transcript, and the kid reluctantly agreeing (and then doing not so well in the class), than there were of the kid wanting to take the higher class and asking the parent to sign the form.

    Also, I teach college math, and in my first-year calculus classes, I usually ask at the beginning how many students took AP calculus in high school, and always, at least 75% of the students raise their hands. And I think that many of those students would have been much better served by taking precalc or some more algebra, because really, a lot of them don’t understand the algebra stuff, and it doesn’t make any sense to have kids take the same class twice when they don’t know enough of the prerequisites to actually learn anything either time.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 7:17 pm ¶

39. deathblossom wrote:

    Well, the AP class thing is hard for me. Ideally, I don’t think that everyone should be allowed to sign up for them. I sat in non-AP and non-Advanced classes for makeup quizzes and I would have died if I’d had to take them because they were so easy and slow-moving. But I don’t think the classes had to be that way and as such, I think students should be allowed to sign up (and drop down if they need to). This is because I did not feel that the AP classes were so much about merit and being smart as they were about offering an alternative learning environment devoid of rambunctious and disruptive behavior. So that basically, the classes existed not entirely to benefit the students, but to benefit teachers who wanted a more stable classroom environment (and that this desire is the actual reason why the teachers in the survey chose B, instead of a desire for higher standards of learning).

    What this meant for my highschool was that out of its 70% black, only 5 black students were in the AP classes during my years there. In other words, there were no formal tests to get into the classes – all you had to do was sign up. Signing up, however, meant having a guidance counselor that did not think you were a student with a bad attitude (which people are more likely to automatically think you have if you are a minority student).

    The other problem we had was that you have to be encouraged and educated about these options – and if people don’t think you’re worthy, they won’t tell you. This was a huge problem for my school because the most of the people who were encouraged (or rather, expected) to sign up were those who had been identified as academically gifted children and placed in the school system’s gifted program. This program starts in the third grade and runs until highschool starts. You may test in at any time, however – no one really knows about the test to ask for it because it is a teacher-recommended test and even then, the test itself is some form of an IQ test (I actually ‘failed’ it in the 3rd grade, but was re-recommended and passed in the 5th).

    So what you essentially have is that first and foremost, teachers are picking out children at a young age that they think are intelligent. Then, they give them some stupid IQ test and separate those that pass from the general population. They give them the best teachers and the best opportunities and basically let everyone else fend for themselves. In the end, you have a false sense of elitism because the smart AP children aren’t really that smart – they’re just the children you thought were worth putting time and effort into. And it’s not fair.

    I don’t think this is indicative of all school systems, but I think it touches on what I think is an aspect of AP – school systems not having to deal with kids they don’t want to have to deal with, i.e. minority children, and how easy it is for teachers’ biases to determine a child’s future. Students should be encouraged and given all opportunities at all levels, not just the ones their educators feel like they can handle.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 9:56 pm ¶

40. Yonah wrote:

    The question was loaded, but I don’t think that means the results should be discounted. I’m not willing to cut people that much slack just because the question lead them to believe they might have had a sympathetic ear from the questioner – in fact, that could be really valuable.

    Besides, the loadedness of the question can only cover so much… if you asked “How much are gays responsible for increased internal efficiency in government?” you would get nowhere near the response you would for something like Blacks being responsible for crime.

    I have had so much antisemitic bullshit thrown my way – the most blatant ones being that my shul was firebombed when I was young, one of my bosses gave me grief in the workplace about it, harassment from a professor made me leave my grad program but I was told not to risk MY career by fighting him on it – and yet I still have trouble convincing people that antisemitism is a problem. Or maybe it’s a problem, but only among those freaky other people.

    It gets really frustrating, the standard of proof is sometimes completely nuts. So for those who are understandably shocked and/or really want such studies to not be true, please do try listening.

    Posted 09 May 2009 at 11:25 pm ¶

41. Yonah wrote:

    Aw man, I need to get on these threads earlier.

    Posted 10 May 2009 at 6:52 pm ¶

42. Whitney wrote:

    I took three AP classes in high school, and the only I had to test into was AP English in 11th grade. The point of them is to not only get an A to boost your GPA, but also to learn enough to be able to pass the test and get college credit. AP classes are difficult, so I don’t think it’s a good idea for students who aren’t academically inclined to take them, they’ll just end up swamped, but I do think every school should offer at them. AP classes are good for students who are exceptionally smart and who get bored in regular classes. I think it’s a good idea to have a required GPA, and if a student doesn’t have it, then that gives them motivation to get better grades. Another option is to take a test to get into the class, which is what I had to do to get into AP English in 11th grade. I felt so successful when I found out I got into the class.

    By the way, anyone can take the test at the end of the year, regardless if they took the class. I almost took the AP History test but decided against it because I didn’t want to pay the money because I wasn’t positive i was going to pass. All a student really needs to do is buy the book for the class and study on their own time and then take the test.

    That being said, I am ecstatic to see a link from The Orion. I am a CSU Chico alum and am well aware of the diversity issues our campus has, simply because there are mostly white students, a lot of has to do with our location (which is a bit rural in Northern California). There are a lot of clubs like the Saudi Student Organization, and they’re becoming more well-known and bigger as the years go on, and in turn, more students are becoming aware and less ignorant about stereotypes and such.

    Posted 11 May 2009 at 12:56 am ¶

43. Matt wrote:

    queerhapa, the problem, as I said, is that a variety of ways of asking the question are all problematic. It’s awkward to ask about “the Jews” but also awkward to ask just about “Jews.” So some surveys have used split sampling to test questions. This is from the 2007 ADL survey: “I am going to read you a list of statements about Jews. For each one please tell me if the statement is probably true or probably false. ” I’d expect social desirability to result in an underestimate of antisemitism there. And yet, 20% say too much power in the bussiness world and 18% too much power on Wall Street. And what about the other questions in the Boston Review article? Those are simple controlled experiments, but they are, to my mind, far more enlightening than the overall.

    Posted 11 May 2009 at 9:29 am ¶