Michael Baisden is a Misogynist Pig

by Guest Contributor M.Dot, originally published at Model Minority

I was riding through Ohio the other day on a road trip to Michigan.

Filthy was looking for NPR but we settled on the Michael Baisden show. I was intrigued because the show was about whether a woman, a wife, has the right to “Go on Strike” and hold out on sex from her husband. Seeing as my research interests are women and sexuality, I was intrigued about the possibilities that the discussion presented.

So, I am listening to the show, and at 6:40 Baisden says to a caller, “If you were my woman, not feeling like it is not a reason to give me some.” Word?

At 7:53 Baisden says, “If you are not in the mood, just lay there and take it.” [Laughter].

The woman caller says that if she doesn’t feel like it she isn’t doing it.

Then Baisden’s co-host says, “Your feelings are obselete, your feelings don’t matter for 30 minutes.” [Laughter].

Record scratch.

I understand that withholding sex from your partner is a very serious matter and typically indicative of other issues going on in the relationship.

However, “You should just lay there and take it” is a very serious line of thought and action for Black women for many reasons .

Think about it this way.

We are raped at a higher rate than all other women in the United States.*

We are murdered at a higher rate than all other women in the United States.

We are beaten by our intimate partners at a higher rate than all other women in the United States.

According to study conducted by the Department of Justice, African American women:

* …were victimized by intimate partners a significantly higher rates than persons of any other race between 1993 and 1998. Black females experienced intimate partner violence at a rate 35% higher than that of white females, and about 22 times the rate of women of other races. Black males experienced intimate partner violence at a rate about 62% higher than that of white males and about 22 times the rate of men of other races.

According to the study published by the Africana Voices Against Violence, Tufts University:

* The number one killer of African-American women ages 15 to 34 is homicide at the hands of a current or former intimate partner.

* In a study of African-American sexual assault survivors, only 17% reported the assault to police.

I was waiting for Baisden to insert some kind of disclaimer, and say, “Ya’ll know I am just playing, I don’t want you all to call here
cursing me out”, but he didn’t.

Baisden’s comments got me to thinking. I am currently in the middle of writing a review to Steve Harvey’s Act Like A Lady, Date Like a Man and I couldn’t help but think about about how the Black male talk show hosts are just as patriarchal as some of the rappers.

Really what is the difference between Snoop saying “Bitches Ain’t Shit But Ho’s and Tricks” and “Just lie there and take It?”

Granted the show mellowed out a bit when Baisden brought on a therapist, Dr. Gail Saltz who specializes in relationships and sex, but the statement had already been made.

Baisden’s comments are also interesting because, in the United States, it has historically been permissible for a husband to have non-consensual sex with his wife.

We had no legal standing to refuse to have sex with our husbands.

The court’s position was that getting married meant a lifetime of permanent consent. This meant that a wife could not be raped.

So you mean to tell me we have rappers, blogs and talk show hosts trashing us? I’m cool on those.

My contention is that every time you visit a site, play a tape, listen to a show, you are voting.

Why vote for a man who thinks that non consensual sex with your husband is okay or that you should just lie there and take it, is okay?

Why do we passively accept Baisden’s actions?

What does a healthy Black Female sexuality look like if we are just lying there and taking it?

Who is he getting money with?


*Latoya’s Note: This statistic is actually a bit inaccurate. Indigenous/Native American women actually have the highest rates of rape out of any other ethnic group. However, most statistical analysis leaves out Indigenous/Native American women because of small sample sizes and/or a focus on the four main racial groups (Black/White/Latino/Asian).

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Asher Roth and the Politics of Race in Hip Hop at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 05 May 2009 at 12:10 pm

    [...] my post, “Michael Baisden is a Misogynist Pig“, ran on Racialicious. The post is about the fact that Michael Baisden stated on his radio [...]

  2. Asher Roth x Don Imus x Nappy Headed Ho’s « Becoming A Woman on 17 Jun 2009 at 3:02 pm

    [...] my post, “Michael Baisden is a Misogynist Pig“,ran on Racialicious. The post is about the fact that MichaelBaisden stated on his radio show [...]

Comments

  1. R. A. Rector wrote:

    This goes to show just how selfish men are. Why would a man even want a woman, sexually, if she is not consenting to having sex with him. Oh, I forgot… POWER over a woman.
    I live in Ouagadougou Burkina Faso West Africa. I never heard of Michael Baisden until last year in August. I had fallen in love with his broadcast and him for what he stood far, and how he was encouraging blacks to get out an vote. Now, he has taken all of that away. He is just like the rest of the black male population, disgusting!!! Would you want someone to do that to your, daughter, mother, sister?

  2. intheknow wrote:

    this isn’t a racial issue by any means. and i’m pretty sure this joker isn’t on NPR. that should be clarified.

  3. Myles wrote:

    Why is he on NPR?! And who cleared wife rape as a topic?

    Eh, I guess this is a good reminder that CONSENT needs to be stressed a lot more in everyday life. Which is why I frequently use the phrase:

    “Remember kids, it’s not sensual unless it is CONsensual.”

    And while we are at it, can we change the definition of masculinity, marriage, and sex to something that is a lot more healthy for both partners? I really think that if we just stop filling boys’ minds with this crap at a young age they won’t grow up thinking that women are property.

  4. Brandon wrote:

    @ R.A.

    “This goes to show just how selfish men are.”

    Sweeping generalizations like that aren’t going to fly here. Your overall point is well taken, but try to qualify it more.

  5. Xay wrote:

    This is only one example of his misogyny. I tried listening to his show once since it came to my market and I was disgusted with his and his co-host’s attitudes towards women in every single segment. Specifically, he talked about going to Brazil to have sex with locals in a manner that was disgusting and degrading towards both women in the United States and Brazilian women.

  6. Chris Chambers wrote:

    Bravo, but some black women will still stand behind these folk. I blogged on Steve Harvey and caught Hell; I linked to it on facebook and also hinted that for this worship of people like Harvey and Baisden, black women often are their own worst enemy. Normal woman applauded me, but many others went batsh*t. Would I be a snob if anecdotally it seemed to be the least educated women who largely were NOT on my side?

  7. Jo wrote:

    Nothing like getting yet more confirmation that women are only receptacles for male incontinence. Ugh.

    I wish these guys would take five seconds and think, not about whether they’d want that to happen to a relative/friend, but would they want that to happen to themselves. Until then, they will not treat women as fully human.

    I wish I could say I couldn’t believe that got past editors and censors. Sadly, I’m not surprised at all.

    “Remember kids, it’s not sensual unless it is CONsensual.”

    LOVE. THIS.

  8. jen* wrote:

    I can’t believe anyone would say “just lie there and take it” in a place where they could be recorded. What???

    Last time I heard Baisden I was on 95, driving down to HH, but I liked the bits of the show that I’ve caught. But this – this is no joke.

    Steve is cool [as in, I haven't heard him say anything that sounds like "rape is ok - if you're married"], but the vibes I got when he was on Oprah last made me turn the show off. It was right when he was telling a group of successful women “by all means, be successful, don’t stop being successful, but…” *click*.

    More and more, I just listen to NPR.

  9. Nina wrote:

    I wouldn’t ever approve of non-consensual sex. However in a marriage one often does have sex with one’s spouse to meet the spouse’s needs, not one’s own. Just like sometimes one cooks when not hungry to feed the spouse or kids.

    I HATE Michael Baisden. And I do NOT think of women as merely sex objects. Having said that, if stated “correctly”, the idea of partners having sex with one another when only one partner currently REALLY wants it is not something I have a problem with. As long as its reciprocal. There are times my husband has been summoned to help me out, so to speak, although he was tired and not in the mood. There have been times I have returned the favor.

  10. Kandeezie wrote:

    @Chris – I think we spend too much time trying to “educate” women to not be abused rather than educating the perpetrator(s). (See: http://tinyurl.com/d4mtmk)

    @Myles – I think you are so right. Starting at an early age to ensure that these ideas of power over women don’t take root inside their heads. These boys need to be raised with more self-confidence. A confident person does not define themselves so dependently on other people’s shifting opinions. If they’re confident, being respectful and reciprocal won’t be such as big deal.
    ——–
    But these boys don’t want to be called soft. What the hell is wrong with soft? Do you think I want a partner who’s going to be as gentle as sandpaper? What type of warfare are we preparing them for when we want our boys to be tough, but then turn around and want peace on earth. Being confident doesn’t mean you’re tough, it means you negotiate with those around you without compromising yourself for the sake of others. No wonder these kids are confused. There’s more to being a human being than aspiring to dominate and conquer all. Relax. Be proud of using words to resolve conflict and confidence/love/respect to enjoy a relationship.

  11. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    It’s a small step from “If you are not in the mood, just lay there and take it” to “If you won’t just lay there and take it, I’m gonna beat you.” Whether Baisden realizes it or not, he’s promoting violence against women.

  12. CVJ wrote:

    Those are terrible comments, but I’m going to go against the crowd here and say that I still like Michael Baisden.

  13. Beth wrote:

    “I wouldn’t ever approve of non-consensual sex. However in a marriage one often does have sex with one’s spouse to meet the spouse’s needs, not one’s own. Just like sometimes one cooks when not hungry to feed the spouse or kids.”

    No. First, sex is not food. Second, while children may not be able to feed themselves, my partner certainly is. If he’s hungry and I’m not, he knows where the stove is. To extend the metaphor, this is what toys are for.

    I am so tired of hearing this same crap over and over, how if women would just learn to unlace their legs men wouldn’t cheat, and how when marriages fall apart it’s because the woman wouldn’t put out, and how not wanting to have sex (no matter what the reason you don’t want to have sex) is depriving your (male; always male) partner of something they deserve.

    It’s not true. Sex is not an obligation, and if you don’t want to you shouldn’t have to (which goes for men as well). If marriage means women are obligated to submit their body to fulfill their husband’s “needs”, well, it’s one more reason not to get married.

  14. Seattle Slim wrote:

    R.A. Rector,

    Don’t you think you are generalizing a bit? My brother is a BM and he would never do that.

    I will add this much, and I may get flack for this but whatever. I would love to know what the married women have to say about this comment because having been married before I understand what he means. I may not have wanted to do anything. Wanted to watch t.v. but hubby wanted to. He never pressured me or twisted my arm, but I figured to myself, “all I have to do is just lay there, let him do his thing and keep it moving.” Most of the time I ended up having fun, but sometimes in marriage it happens.

  15. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @Nina,

    Well put. My bf did that on Saturday night. But before you knew it, he was wide awake lol. Bless his poor heart, he was dead tired too lol.

    I think he worded it wrong, true. But marriage is about compromise, and it’s funny because you know at some point this will happen going into it.

  16. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Jo wrote:

    Nothing like getting yet more confirmation that women are only receptacles for male incontinence. Ugh.

    I wish these guys would take five seconds and think, not about whether they’d want that to happen to a relative/friend, but would they want that to happen to themselves. Until then, they will not treat women as fully human.

    ============================

    Jo,

    Many men are okay with that. It’s a fantasy for them. They would love nothing more than to just lay there and take it. It’s called “the cowgirl.”

  17. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Okay.

    Instead of focusing on men’s wants or marriage maintenance, how about we reframe this to focus on M.Dot’s question:

    What does a healthy Black Female sexuality look like if we are just lying there and taking it?

  18. msday wrote:

    If one were to look at that comment”lie there and take it” and think about scenes from the color purple, especially the ones between Cely and Mister, there is definitely a parallel. However, that movie was criticized for bashing black men. Why is it that when these issues of sexist behavior and abuse towards black women are raised, people turn a deaf ear.
    It’s amazing because I have noticed that people only speak out when the issue is, for example, Jamie Fox’s comments about Miley Cyrus or Eminem’s video depiction of Sarah Palin. Black women are always expected to endure abuse, lie there and take it, and not complain because when we do, we are angry, have an attitude, or “confused”.
    I am leaving this site, and canceling my membership in his website as a result.

  19. NO_ID wrote:

    Understanding the seriousness of domestic violence, but I’ve listened to Michael Baisden many times and he does do an entertainment show. I think he was joking, as some of the married women have said on this post, it happens like that sometimes on both sides.
    But the patriarchy of black male hosts is certainly true….although I think it’s wrong to separate them out as though we don’t live in a patriarchal world, period…

  20. Fiqah wrote:

    @LDP: “What does a healthy Black Female sexuality look like if we are just lying there and taking it?”

    I’m somewhat of the opinion that a lot of us don’t know what a health Black female sexuality looks like because we’ve never seen it. Yeah. Damn. :(

    Finally, a thought on the issue of resistance versus acquiescence : sex is for having/enjoying. PUNCHES are for taking. So, um, no. Just “taking” it – in so many ways – is Just Not Fucking Cool.

  21. CDF wrote:

    Doesn’t he have a show on TVOne?

  22. Tracey wrote:

    @Nina and Seattle Slim :Yeah, however, I think one of the problems is the way Baisden said it and what is implied by those words. “Just lay there and take it”, “Your feelings are obsolete, your feelings don’t matter for thirty minutes” is beyond disgusting and can been seen as legitimizing marital rape and at the very least making women who don’t have sex on demand take the blame of bad relationships and feel like bad spouses. I think it absolutely happens, and is sometimes even encouraged by sex therapists/ marriage counselors that if it’s been a while it would be nice if the partners would have sex even if not in the mood (Dr. Sue rocks my socks). But “your feelings are obsolete” doesn’t reflect that. There is a difference between having sex with a partner when you’re tired because you want to and Baisden’s comments that make sex a woman’s obligation. In your example’s I think it showed considerations of both partner’s where as Baisden’s attitudes see the women only as receptacles. And if a woman is straight up on strike, then clearly there are some very serious problems in the relationship that should be addressed.

  23. Tracey wrote:

    What does a healthy Black Female sexuality look like if we are just lying there and taking it?
    I don’t think those two things can coexist. B/c even if you are having sex when not in the mood for your partner’s sake it should be active, not “just lying there and taking it” which conjures the words of rapists. I think that to be healthy sex must be: active, pro-active, and safe at the very least. What I mean by pro-active is that it is not done for the purposes of getting or keeping a partner. I also mean that it should be controlled by the woman and not viewed as something that is solely to please a guy and that it is not seen as a reflection of the woman’s worth (Madonna/Whore complex).
    I think the Madonna/Whore complex and the notion of some women thinking they have only sex to offer is extremely detrimental to healthy female sexuality.

  24. Colin B wrote:

    It seems to me that a healthy Black female sexuality is formed similarly to how a healthy relationship should be formed: through consensus and power sharing. If one side dominates a relationship, the relationship is strained and likely breaks. If one person or group dominates sexual relations, it’s rape or at the very least, terrible sex.

    Also, the the first commenter, R.A. Rector, I must say as a black male I am taken aback by your vitriol against me.

    “He is just like the rest of the black male population, disgusting!!!”

    That’s deplorable, reeks of internalized racism, from my perspective at least, and contradicts all the good righteous indignation from the rest of your post. Please take that back.

  25. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Tracey,

    I see you and I agree!

    So question:
    “What does a healthy Black Female sexuality look like if we are just lying there and taking it?”

    Oooh it depends on the scope. If we are talking folks who’ve been married several years or more, have kids and are burnt out, and there’s no violence or coercion, then I would say it looks normal.

    If we are talking about a relatively new couple or even an established one with lots of issues, and he is telling her she’d better lay there and take it, I would say it looks patently unhealthy.

    My question would be, what if she doesn’t want to just lay there and take it, then what? If he would beat her or hurt her verbally, then we’ve got a problem

  26. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @23 Tracey,

    You’ve got great points. I admit I believed a lot of what you said, but having tried to think that way and having my marriage end in divorce, I reevaluated and am always reevaluating my views on these things. Then of course I got married at 18 years old, and my views on men were “Lil’ Kim-ish”. That doesn’t work so much.

    A healthy BW’s sexuality, and any other woman’s, should be based on equality. Everybody should be out to please each other. That’s what makes it really fun, really worth having. I would be bored if he only was out to take care of me and got nothing in return. Vice versa.

    This is why I don’t let anyone, be it feminist society, patriarchal, religious, any society for that matter tell me what I should do and how I should react when it comes to intimacy. I do what I do and I like what I like and that’s it. It’s not really up for discussion.

    So therein lies my answer. A healthy BW’s sexuality is one in which she is completely happy with her choices and how she chooses to operate intimately, regardless of who that may offend. It is also not selfish or overly sacrificial. It sees intimacy as a way for two people to reach a nirvana like state for a brief, climactic moment (even leading up to it or maybe several moments. lol) as opposed to expecting to be propelled alone or propelling someone else alone into said state.

  27. fruitoftheloon wrote:

    Re: healthy black female sexuality
    It seems like ‘lying back and taking it’ feeds off of the idea that black women are supposed to subjugate their wants and needs for the sake of black men, just like they’re supposed accept physical abuse. There’s a sense that black women are supposed to ‘take one for the team,’ so to speak. And raising questions about rape wouldn’t exactly be ‘uplifting the race,’ either. Although expecting women to be a passive sexual partner is a universal problem, it seems like women of color in general are expected to maintain a higher degree of tolerance/silence surrounding partner abuse so they don’t ‘betray’ their race.
    We need to fight the idea that female suffering is an acceptable sacrifice in the struggle for racial equality (or sexual equality, for that matter), as well as create a positive model of female sexuality that doesn’t revolve around passivity.

  28. Nina wrote:

    @Beth-
    Whether sex is a NEED or not is debatable.

    And to refer to MY comment, not Michael B’s, I said that it has to be RECIPROCAL.
    My feelings are-
    I am not obligated to have sex with my spouse because he wants sex, he is not obligated to have sex with me when I want. As an act of loving generosity, we have had sex when one wanted it actively and the other wasnt in the mood, for the sake of the one who didn’t.

    And sometimes I’ll watch a movie I dont like because he wants to see it with me, and he’ll watch one with me that I don’t want to see.

    I understand that my philosophy will cause some to say, “SEX ISNT THE MOVIES”. The point is not sex and it is not to EVER say one should be coerced. But that one can also reframe it to say, “People, can we sometimes do things we don’t feel like for our spouse?” Yes, even sex.

  29. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Having said that, “relations” are never a black or white thing. That is the biggest most enduring lesson I have learned. It is not something that is easy to define. What works for some women, may not work for others. If someone is totally okay with “laying there” and taking it then, it is what it is. We have got to stop defining what we believe women’s sexuality to be. We’ve been doing this for centuries. I mean, if someone is reckless with it, it’s kind of hard to not chime in especially if it’s self-destructive or destructive to children and others. I guess what I’m saying is I would be terribly offended if someone called my ex-husband, a wonderful human being and good friend of mine, a “rapist” because I just laid there a couple times. I would be terribly irritated if someone said that about me because I told BF he could lay there and take it on several occasions.

  30. Nina wrote:

    “@Nina and Seattle Slim :Yeah, however, I think one of the problems is the way Baisden said it and what is implied by those words. “Just lay there and take it”, “Your feelings are obsolete, your feelings don’t matter for thirty minutes” is beyond disgusting and can been seen as legitimizing marital rape and at the very least making women who don’t have sex on demand take the blame of bad relationships and feel like bad spouses.”

    Yes, I do disagree with his attitude. I think he can go too far. And if the point is,”shut up and get screwed”, I don’t like it. If he is engaging in a bit of hyperbole and being outrageous to make a point- there is merit to the suggestion that we ALL be accomodating.

    Perhaps because I think of him as being like Chris Rock, someone who exaggerates but often has a bit of wisdom at the core of the shit talking, what I hear is the kind of thing many men say when alone. And there is the risk that he goes to far OR that listeners will take it as gospel and not hear it as hyperbole.
    I hear it as hyperbole, my brother and friends hear it as hyperbole but that doesnt mean everyone does.

  31. Nina wrote:

    @fruitoftheloon We need to fight the idea that female suffering is an acceptable sacrifice in the struggle for racial equality (or sexual equality, for that matter), as well as create a positive model of female sexuality that doesn’t revolve around passivity”

    If I agreed to give my mate a mercy fuck, I wouldn’t characterize it as “female suffering”.

  32. Nina wrote:

    @seattle slim

    well,i’ve taken one for the team plenty of times. plenty of times i just didn’t want to

    i’m 38 most of my female friends are in their late 30’s or early 40’s. trust me, at this age the women want it more than their spouses who are often a few years older. and yes, sometimes hubby has to turn off the tv and forget about the game and go hook wifey up. is he OBLIGATED? nah. but when there is an imbalance as far as desire, is it ok to negotiate and for someone to SOMETIMES do things they dont feel like doing

    what does it say about sexuality to be passive? sometimes i’m passive, sometimes i’m aggressive. sometimes i want an aggressive partner, sometimes a passive one

  33. Alyssa wrote:

    “What does black female sexuality look like if we just laying there and taking it?”
    Unfortunatly this is a common scene on TV. When coupled with violence, it shows up as rape (like the scenes in Roots). When that violence is absent, it shows up in comedy routines (two of several examples are Chepelle’s “wrap it up” sketch where a very bored looking women holds up a sign saying wrap it up; and the recent episode of Scrubs where Carla is laying there reading a book, and turns to Turk asking oh you aren’t done yet?)
    Even in the later cases that I wouldn’t classify as rape, we see an unhealty version of female sexuality. We see women who are disinterested in sex and rather than asking why and trying to fix the problem, we disregard the woman and try to cover up the problem. This only perpetuates the idea that women aren’t interested in sex. In order to have a healthy sexual relationship, both parteners should be interested. If one isn’t, both partners should be trying to understand the underlying problem and taking steps to fix it.

  34. fruitoftheloon wrote:

    @ Nina
    I’m not talking about making a free, conscious choice to have sex with a SO. Every relationship is about compromise, and that includes sex. But telling women to ‘lie back and take it’ suggests that women have an obligation to always accept their SO’s sexual advances or else they fail in their ‘womanly role’. It puts the onus on women to adjust to their partner’s sexual demands, without expecting any reciprocity. Women are told to have more sex to accommodate the male libido. How often are men told to have less sex to accommodate the female libido?
    (BTW, I don’t agree that all men have higher sex drives, but most relationship advice does assume this to be the case.)

  35. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @Nina: Eye to eye, madame!

    @Alyssa,

    The issue with those two scenarios in Scrubs and Chappelle’s show is they are trying to go for the joke. They are not necessarily going to show the resolution to her boredom nor do they care to. I also think that they sincerely didn’t really think about it because there are plenty of couples who are doing this. So for me, keeping that in mind, it comes down to balance to counter the perpetuation you mentioned.

  36. Micah wrote:

    While he is mysognist, he also does have a number of female therapists on the show that debunk his humor and whom he often sides with on the show on similar issues. Though I didn’t hear that particular show, I do think that Michael Baisden operates on both sides: saying that a man can control his place but also saying that women can be independent. Sure, we’d like to see more of the latter, but Baisden also caters to a larger black male audience that does feel the need to be mysognistic in order to feel like they have power. I think you should call into his show and let him know what you think. As much as its great to write about it on a blog, he probably doesn’t read it. Call him or email him and get on his show and tell him what’s up if you want him to change his tune.

    Also, Steve Harvey’s book’s title is Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man, not date.

  37. Angel H. wrote:

    ThankYouThankYouTHANKYOU!for this!! I can’t stand Michael Baisden. His show is incredibly sexist, and I can’t stand to listen anymore. Unfortunately, I carpool with my dad and he’s crazy about the show. (Yay, iPod!)

  38. Westerly wrote:

    Beth wrote:
    “I am so tired of hearing this same crap over and over, how if women would just learn to unlace their legs men wouldn’t cheat, and how when marriages fall apart it’s because the woman wouldn’t put out, and how not wanting to have sex (no matter what the reason you don’t want to have sex) is depriving your (male; always male) partner of something they deserve.

    It’s not true. Sex is not an obligation, and if you don’t want to you shouldn’t have to (which goes for men as well). If marriage means women are obligated to submit their body to fulfill their husband’s “needs”, well, it’s one more reason not to get married.”

    Amen. No-one is ever going to convince me that sex is a ‘right’.

    fruitof theloon wrote:
    “Women are told to have more sex to accommodate the male libido. How often are men told to have less sex to accommodate the female libido?
    (BTW, I don’t agree that all men have higher sex drives, but most relationship advice does assume this to be the case.)”

    And this. Female libido – what is that? It’s always about ‘teh menz’ and of course their (assumed) libido is all that really counts. And who exactly gets to decide what is a supposedly ‘healthy’ level of interest in sex? Is there some kind of gold standard (just as there is one for beauty) that we all have to attain?

    I just love the assumption that a disinterest in sex is like a disorder that needs to be explained and then “fixed” pronto. *eyeroll*

  39. Westerly wrote:

    Oh – and thanks for the disclaimer on the stats because when I was reading through I thought – hang on a second – that’s not what I heard. I wonder what Native American Indian think about there own situation and the perpetual focus on the four ‘main’ groups that excludes them…

  40. elle the elephant wrote:

    @Westerly

    I co-sign with you wholeheartedly. As an asexual young men, I don’t understand the pressure it is to have sex, nor do I understand the length people go to have sex. Sex is a “want” not a “need”. People can and have gone without it and remained perfectly sane.
    On Michael Baisden and the patriarchy of Black male talk show host, it appears to be an extension of the patriarchy found in the talk show host circuit in general. Because the radio companies stereotypically believe that most people that listen to talk shows are male, they look for male talk show host and exclude talented females. From Opie and Anthony(God I hate them) to Howard Stern to that jerk Tom Leykuss on the eastcoast, talk show hosting is a White male-dominated field. Not to sound sexist, but how many female or non-white talk show host can you name off the top of your head that is popular? Not very many.

  41. Lio wrote:

    I wonder if most of the people making comments on this blog even heard the show. I listened to the entire show. The show was talking about people using sex as a weapon. For example, if a woman tells her husband if you don’t buy me a Gucci Bag then I’m not going to give you sex or if a man says if you don’t give me sex, I will not give you child support. Both of these situations are wrong regardless weather your a man or a woman.

    Mike made a comment that he thought that constantly denying your partner sex is wrong and even the bible tells you that. As a woman, I do agree that a woman shouldn’t be force into sex but to go a long perios of time without having sex with your mate is not healthy. One man call in and said that his wife hasn’t had sex with in in over a year. I don’t think a woman should be force, but, if your having sexual problems in your relationship, maybe the couple can seek professional help.

    Someone asked Mike if his wife didn’t want to have sex with him what will he do and he said that she didn’t have to work at the sex that all she had to do was lay there and he would do most of work. To me he sounded like he was just kidding. I don’t feel that he was serious. Mike is alwasy kidding around. He does a Domestic Voilence show every week and he encourages women not to stay.

  42. gail wrote:

    What about the question on the other side of this relationship? What does a healthy black male sexuality look like? Does it look like Michael Baisden and Seve Harvey? And by that question I mean, does it include a benign form of patriarchy that allows them to characterize women and their sexuality as something to be taken and possessed? And then lets them off the hook for those attitudes and opinions because they share their platform with black women who speak to empower women?

  43. Nina wrote:

    @fruitoftheloon

    neither partner should treat sex like a commodity to be traded

    for those who say sex is a want and not a need- i dunno. sex is considered a pretty urgent need by most professionals. its one of, if not THE, strongest biological urge humans have

  44. Nina wrote:

    Alyssa wrote:

    “When that violence is absent, it shows up in comedy routines (two of several examples are Chepelle’s “wrap it up” sketch where a very bored looking women holds up a sign saying wrap it up; and the recent episode of Scrubs where Carla is laying there reading a book, and turns to Turk asking oh you aren’t done yet?)
    Even in the later cases that I wouldn’t classify as rape, we see an unhealty version of female sexuality. We see women who are disinterested in sex and rather than asking why and trying to fix the problem, we disregard the woman and try to cover up the problem. This only perpetuates the idea that women aren’t interested in sex. In order to have a healthy sexual relationship, both parteners should be interested. If one isn’t, both partners should be trying to understand the underlying problem and taking steps to fix it.”

    LOL, thats IMO idealistic. And presumptuous IMO to tell others what is healthy or not. The fact is, no 2 people share the same level of sexual desire. One partner generally wants more than the other. It is ALSO healthy and loving to participate when you arent interested because it pleases your partner. Not just in sex- in going to movies, seeing the ballet, going fishing.

    I’m kind of laughing because the same joke is always told about women- the man working away and asking “is it going to take FOREVER for you to come?”.

    Is it unhealthy for a man who is at the point of orgasm or who has already come to continue pleasuring her partner so she can, though he has already been satisfied and lost interest. Or should he finish for her sake? If he didnt, then he’s a dog who doesn’t care about her pleasure. So why is it only a problem when women accommodate men?

  45. Nina wrote:

    coincidentally, a friend emailed this a minute ago

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/22/365-nights-charla-muller-sex

  46. M.dot wrote:

    Team Racialicious,

    Thank you for all of your comments. I have read each and everyone one of them.

    @ Latoya, Thank you for the editor’s note re: Native American women. You are absolutely right, and I will qualify that stat in the future.

    -Baisden isn’t on NPR, we were looking for NPR and settled for his show.

    @Xay
    Specifically, he talked about going to Brazil to have sex with locals in a manner that was disgusting and degrading towards both women in the United States and Brazilian women.
    ====
    I am not surprised by this. To be clear, after I posted this piece on my blog a reader contacted me explaining personal knowledge Baisdens sexual harassment towards coworkers. I have not received confirmation of its accuracy and Im uncertain of what do with this information. I am praying about it tho’.

    @Chris Chambers
    I blogged on Steve Harvey and caught Hell; I linked to it on facebook and also hinted that for this worship of people like Harvey and Baisden, black women often are their own worst enemy.
    =====
    I wouldn’t say that we are own worst enemies. I would say that we need to constantly redefine what loving ourselves looks like. It is hard work, but it means having a less depressed and more satisfied life.

    @Nina,
    Thank you for your honest response and your willingness to engage. I took some time to comment on your comments. They made me think.

    It is hard to bring ones on personal life into the foray, but as bell hooks teaches us, thats where real ‘ish hits the fan.

    Making my partner barbqued jerk tofu when I don’t want to is not the same as having sex when I don’t want to. Cooking when I don’t want to, at its worse, will leave me grumpy and resentful. Having sex, or being forced to non consensual sex with my partner could leave me scarred and I would imagine, change my life forever.

    You have said that you have done “the mercy fuck” and you have taken one for the team. I would push you to thinking about Black female sexuality BOTH as it pertains to you and to all of us. Given the fact that historically, during slavery our sexuality was tied to creating the wealth in this nation, and give the fact that Black women have publicly responded with Silence around our sexuality, how do you conceive of drawing the line between the “mercy fuck” and “non consensual sex” and rape.

    I am going to push again.
    Would you feel comfortable telling a 16 year old young lady that “sometimes you have to lie there and take it?” Would that be healthy for her? Conversely, would you feel comfortable telling a 16 year old young man that sometimes he may be able to have sex, or obtain sex, that isn’t clearly consensual, with his partner.

    What is the line of rape between partners? Heterosexual folks and LGBQT folks?

    I hear it as hyperbole, my brother and friends hear it as hyperbole
    =========
    Let me ask you this, do you think Don Imus was being Hyperbolic when he called the Rutgers women’s team Nappy Headed Ho’s?

    If he wasn’t being hyperbolic and was being racist, why should Imus not be tolerated but Baisdens comments are hyperbolic?
    Often times, I have found that people hide behind the defense of laughter when in reality it constitutes hate speech.

    Can’t sprinkle sugar on shit and call it ice cream.

    Sex, is not a biological need, you will not die without it. Food, water, sleep, yes. Not sex. Sex is necessary to reproduce our species.

    @msday
    Thank you for your insightful comment
    and for taking it back to Ms. Celie and Shug.
    Those two women are on my heart, always, and their relationship, the tension and how Alice was treated for criticizing Black men publicly remains on my mind as well.

    I want you to know that I hear you. You may like this piece I wrote as well, The Silence of Black Female Writers. http://modelminority.blogspot.com/2008/12/silence-of-black-women-writers.html
    Its about how Charles Johnson started saying that Toni Morrison should “STOP” writing about slavery.

    @LP,
    I love this

    Latoya Peterson wrote:
    Okay.
    Instead of focusing on men’s wants or marriage maintenance, how about we reframe this to focus on M.Dot’s question:

    What does a healthy Black Female sexuality look like if we are just lying there and taking it?

    @Seattle Slim
    I mean, if someone is reckless with it, it’s kind of hard to not chime in especially if it’s self-destructive or destructive to children and others.
    =====
    This reminds me of how I answer when someone asks me what my sexual orientation is and I feel that it is none of their business I say, “So long as I am not giving anyone THE BUG [no one is giving it to me], and I am making healthy sustainable choices, what I do with my body is NONE of your business.” Most people are like. Okay. You have a point.

    @Micah,
    The proof is in the pudding. Check out the show. I linked to it.

    @Tracey,
    Thank you for hanging in there and trying to articulate what a healthy Black female sexuality is. Trust me…its hard work.

    @Fruit of the Loon
    We need to fight the idea that female suffering is an acceptable sacrifice in the struggle for racial equality (or sexual equality, for that matter), as well as create a positive model of female sexuality that doesn’t revolve around passivity.
    ======
    Thank you. This is why I write.

    @Gail
    What about the question on the other side of this relationship? What does a healthy black male sexuality look like?… does it include a benign form of patriarchy that allows them to characterize women and their sexuality as something to be taken and possessed?
    ===
    Wow. Thank you for bringing this up. Your point shows me that I have MORE work to do especilly in light of Lil Waynes recent comments about being 11 and raped by a 14 year old woman.

    Real spit, in the eyes of many, both Black men and Black women ARE unrapeable. Thanks to the legacy of slavery.

    I did a google search on women killed by their husbands.
    15K Women Killed by their Husbands in Russia.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/15000-women-killed-by-husbands-1591705.html

    No, its not racial, it is about humanity.

  47. brownstocking wrote:

    Wow. This was so powerful. As always, M.dot: GET. THAT. SAID.

    I have hated Baisden since his first book came out, and Black women, who I loved and respected, waxed on and on about it. I felt his work was misogynistic, and wondered about our collective “self-hate.” I was younger, then, and way less mellow or forgiving.

    I don’t know, even as a joke, I have low tolerance for rape humor. Some don’t, and that’s okay, too…I guess. As someone who’s own assault included “just lie there,” that shit will never be funny to me.

  48. kerrita k wrote:

    of course there were also his panoply of “why light skinned black women don’t cook” jokes. the man is a pig – and every time we (black people) support his shit we (black women) are legitimating his crap…

  49. brownstocking wrote:

    yeah, totally should have said “whose own” but ah well. I was in the moment.

    @48 I’d heard about that, from a friend who thought it was funny, and yes, she could pass the paper bag test.

  50. Tracey wrote:

    26 “A healthy BW’s sexuality is one in which she is completely happy with her choices and how she chooses to operate intimately, regardless of who that may offend. It is also not selfish or overly sacrificial.”
    Wow. Sums it up. I also think you touched on important issues especially when including the perspective of some feminists, esp. 2nd wave ( how many women were told having sex with men was upholding patriarchy and how many women in same-sex relationships were butch/femme roles were held were told they were traitors?)
    Also, I do listen to Michael Baisden and have heard him make several comments that make him look like a total misogynist or at the very least dismissive of women, which is really unfortunate given that he does do a lot of inspiring and uplifting shows for the general population and black females in particular. That’s why when I hear him say things like this I think it stings more because it is like a betrayal. On one show he’s telling young black women to dump the thugs, to dump men that are not contributing financially and are not even trying to, is doing a series of shows on how to realistically realize your business plans, etc. and then every once and a while he’ll say things like this without so much as adding a j.k. Had these comments come from Hannity or Limbaugh, I would not be having the same reaction. Someone who does such meaningful, insightful, much needed tough love shows really needs to try and make sure there comments don’t reinforce the kind of messages they are supposedly trying to combat.

  51. Roxie wrote:

    Please add FrankSki of Atlanta’s V103 to this list. He routinely preaches the the lack of “real” black men in the community is the fault of black women.

    Just yesterday they were “debating” which sex was better at accepting truths (as opposed to white lies). His argument was that because men are logical and women are emotional that women could not be better at accepting truths.

    He really makes my head hurt

  52. Bukkakelypse wrote:

    Beth wrote:

    “I wouldn’t ever approve of non-consensual sex. However in a marriage one often does have sex with one’s spouse to meet the spouse’s needs, not one’s own. Just like sometimes one cooks when not hungry to feed the spouse or kids.”

    No. First, sex is not food. Second, while children may not be able to feed themselves, my partner certainly is. If he’s hungry and I’m not, he knows where the stove is. To extend the metaphor, this is what toys are for.

    Well you sure sound like quite the catch.

    Women like this are yet another reason men should avoid marriage in the modern West like the plague – at least then if you’re seeing a woman like this you can kick her to the curb and get one with a normal libido.

  53. Nina wrote:

    @M.dot

    I assure you, I know the difference between a mercy fuck and rape. I have never advocated NON-consensual sex! THe problem is that you and others seem to think there are right reasons to consent and wrong reasons.
    As an adult female, I have the right to consent to sex for reasons of my own. And if that reason is “because HEY, the man wants to do it”, I am free to consent. I am free to NOT consent.

    The bottom line is I have the CHOICE, and that goes both ways. I can choose NOT to have sex when I am not in the mood, I can choose TO have sex when I am not in the mood. (Though I will say this, once initiated the mood magically appears.) Sometimes you are already aroused or eager, sometimes you aren’t but know that you will become aroused.

    How you have manage to equate what I am referring to- consent without existing desire with lack of consent, I don’t know. I have CLEARLY stated at all points that I am speaking of CONSENSUAL sex.
    If I felt I would be angry, resentful, hurt or traumatized I WOULD NOT CONSENT.

    Regarding teenagers- I would say that one should NEVER have nonconsensual sex and that neither partner should badger the other for sex. I would say that one may consent FREELY, without fear or coercion, to have sex for any reason of their choosing. That both men and women have variations in their level of desire and energy. That in an adult loving relationship there will be times when one person AGREES to perform certain sexual acts that they didnt not neccessarily feel like doing, but are willing to do for the pleasure of their partner. It may be agreeing to a quick one for the sake of the man. It may be a tired man agreeing to 15 minutes of oral sex to help his partner get off, though he’d be content to have at it for 3 minutes and go to sleep.

    I would explain that one can willingly and lovingly do things that maybe they didn’t feel like, or that they don’t desire as much as their partner. But not to do it if they feel coerced or harrassed or think they will be resentful.

    As far as sex being a need. People live without it. But it is a VERY strong drive, strong enough to be considered a need though not for survival. Touch of all sorts is a need- most of us have heard of the chicken wire mom and the baby monkey experiments.

    All I’m saying is sometimes it is kind and loving to ease your partner’s misery, even if they aren’t going to DIE from lack of sex.

  54. Nina wrote:

    “We need to fight the idea that female suffering is an acceptable sacrifice in the struggle for racial equality (or sexual equality, for that matter), as well as create a positive model of female sexuality that doesn’t revolve around passivity”

    Honestly, do you equate agreeing to have sex when you weren’t in the mood with suffering? I for one have never suffered during any sort of consensual sexual activity. My god its like some people hear this as, “let him rape and brutalize you, give up your right to ever say no”.

    Mod Note - Nina, please focus on what M.dot is saying. She is focusing on the fact that women are expected to be passive. This is not about your particular relationship dynamics, it is about forming a healthy black sexuality when some folks are making it clear our opinions don’t count. -LDP

  55. Hombretubes wrote:

    You don’t ‘vote’ by tuning into a radio station or buying a product. The free market isn’t a democracy, it doesn’t work like that. If you want to stop this guy, or change his attitude, you’ve got to do something more direct.

  56. Uncle Rosy wrote:

    This Michael Baisden and George Wilborn is not bringing anything new but more stupid stuff and dirty sex talk.For both of them to be fathers,they should be ashame of themselves acting like to grade school little boys,and the way they try to hustle people of diffrent races too call the show after they made off the backs of black people.Love,lust and Sin.

  57. Uncle Rosy wrote:

    Baisden and Willborn are part of the reason why black radio is dead and I bet they’re daughters are not happy with they’re views.