When a Man is the Victim: A Second Study in Rape Apology

by Guest Contributor Cara Kulwicki, originally published at The Curvature

I’ve previously done an in depth analysis of victim-blaming and rape denial, and how it varies and how it stays the same, in a case of rape where a man was the victim of a female assailant. After seeing this video at Sociological Images, along with the questions Lisa poses about the attitudes towards sexual violence it reveals, I’m compelled to do a second one. The results are a bit long and wandering.

Below, rapper Lil’ Wayne appears on Jimmy Kimmel Live and (starting at about 2:40) is asked by the host whether or not it’s true that he “lost his virginity” at 11. After looking shocked and attempting to laugh it off, Lil’ Wayne tells his story, and it may be triggering to some of you.

I do not know what Lil’ Wayne would call his own experience, but though he does not use the word, the admittedly few details he provides do indeed portray this quite clearly as rape, for reasons that I hope are obvious to most readers here, and which will be delved into in more detail below. Lil’ Wayne seems to me to be uncomfortable with the line of questioning, and yet Jimmy Kimmel and the other man on the show continue to laugh and joke around about it, even after Lil’ Wayne says very clearly that the experience was harmful to him.

It seems like a reasonable question, to ask what the hell is wrong with Jimmy Kimmel. But the problem is, while not excusing his actions for a single second, that he has a whole culture (and audience) backing him up.

In the majority of sexual assault cases, where a woman is the victim of a man’s violence, rape apology is rooted primarily not in the denial that male violence exists, but in the denial that male violence means something and needs to be stopped. Conversely, in cases where a man is the victim of a woman’s violence, rape apologism is strongly rooted in the denial that women’s actions can count as violence at all — and especially that their actions can count as sexual violence against men, who are routinely construed as incapable of being victims.

In cases of both of these two types of sexual violence (though hardly the only two that exist), the victim is accused of “wanting it.” But while the female victim is also, when that reasoning fails, accused of deserving it, this seems to not be the case with men. No, they just always wanted it. (Again, talking only about male victims of women — gay male victims of other men are routinely portrayed as “deserving” it as well as “wanting” it.) There are no sneers about what he should and shouldn’t have been doing. Just jokes about how awesome the assault must have been for him. Like we see Jimmy Kimmel engaging in above.

Over at Sociological Images, the assertion is made that if Lil’ Wayne was a white female, what was done to him would be seen as rape or sexual assault. Seemingly, this assertion is made with certainty.

While I absolutely agree that if Lil’ Wayne were a white woman, Jimmy Kimmel would not be joking around on national television about the experience — because it wouldn’t be seen as “cool” — I remain unconvinced that it would necessarily be called rape by the majority of the viewing public. As argued partially above, the tactics of rape apologism shift as need be — but with only a few extreme and/or notable exceptions, the intensity varies little.

I am unconvinced that many people who do not see Lil’ Wayne as a victim would see a woman with his same circumstances as one, because the fact that he was assaulted does not rely on age — which, while still subject to rape apologism, is one of the cases where you most commonly see sympathy for female victims. While 14 is significantly older than 11 (since age differences matter more the younger you are), I’m not sure that the majority of people would be comfortable outright calling it rape based on that age difference.

If we were talking an 11-year-old girl and a 24-year-old man? Most people, though of course certainly not all, would probably call that rape. And I know for a fact that significantly fewer people would call it rape when we reverse those genders.

When watching this video, my mind was instantly drawn to another famous musician: Anthony Kiedis, the lead singer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I remember hearing long ago that he “lost his virginity” at the age of 12 to his father’s girlfriend, with the blessing of his father, and it always haunted me. I’ve never heard him or anyone else refer to that as rape, even though this seems like an even “clearer cut” case by popular standards than Lil’ Wayne’s above. In fact, it’s almost always told as though the story is “cool.” If Anthony Kiedis was a woman who “lost her virginity” to her mother’s boyfriend at age 12, I think there’s little doubt that most people would see it as anything other than seriously fucked up at worst, and correctly as rape at best.

But it’s not the case here. No, the (primary) reason that this was rape is because no affirmative, let alone enthusiastic, consent was obtained, and this would be the same even if both people were the exact same age. Understanding that “surprising” someone with “sex” is in fact rape is required to understand that rape is what Lil’ Wayne seemingly endured, and far too many people don’t understand that.

So I ask, really, how many people of the sadly few people who are progressive and educated enough to see enthusiastic consent as a standard, are ignorant enough to think that it only applies to one gender? I’m sure that they exist somewhere, but I doubt that they’re a large group.

On the other hand, there is a certain, entirely different group of people who would in fact see this as rape if it was done to a woman, but not see it as rape in the case of Lil’ Wayne. These people are paternalist types. Paternalist types who don’t oppose sexual violence because of a belief in bodily autonomy, sexual rights and social justice, but because they believe that women are delicate little flowers who need protecting, and that men are big boys who really need to suck it up. They wouldn’t see this as rape if the victim was a woman because they note the lack of enthusiastic consent — they’d see it as rape due to a combination of her age, the idea that girls are helpless, and that age-old and totally unhelpful believe that teenage boys “only want one thing.” And they wouldn’t see it as rape if the victim was a man because boys are supposed to be tougher than that — and anyway, teenage boys “only want one thing,” and there you go, he got it, so why’s he complaining.

These people? On their face, they might seem very slightly better than the kind of person who would also claim that the 11-year-old girl wanted it. But they’re still not on our side. Not even close.

The final consideration in analyzing the reaction to this story is the question of race. Again, Sociological Images asserts that the reason people do not see this as rape is because Lil’ Wayne is not only male, but a black male.

It’s certainly true that black men are hyper-sexualized, and that anyone who is hyper-sexualized is instantly construed as unrapeable, all other considerations becoming irrelevant. But at the same time, while Lil’ Wayne’s race surely plays a part not only in the failure to interpret his “virginity loss” as rape but also the prodding by the while males for him to brag about the assault he endured, I’m unsure that this would necessarily be interpreted as rape if a white male was the victim. For an example of why, you can again see above.

Then again, Anthony Kiedis is also interpreted as hyper-sexual both due to the image that he has created for himself and by virtue of being a rock star. Take that away and leave his situation with clearly older predators in tact, and you may have a situation where a white male would be seen as a victim, but a black male (or perhaps other male of color) would not be. It’s not easy to say. While we can say with certainty that racism plays a role in the reactions we see to the story that Lil’ Wayne recounts, we can’t say how exactly the reactions would be different when racism is taken out of the picture.

Again, rape apologism shifts according to its needs. When racism helps its cause, racism is used. When it doesn’t help, or actually hurts, new means are brought in to serve in its place. Similarly, when stereotypes about masculinity serve rape apologism, those stereotypes are also used, and denied when they don’t.

That’s the thing about rape apologism. Strangely enough, for a philosophy that relies entirely on lies and prejudice, it’s actually incredibly nuanced. That’s why it can be so convincing to some people. And it’s why it needs to be analyzed and picked apart.

Latoya’s NotePlease make sure you click on and read all of Cara’s links before you comment. Some people will want to immediately dismiss this conversation as if it is impossible for someone like Lil Wayne to engage in unwanted sexual contact with a woman, much less to be raped by one. But this is one of the things I’ve been thinking about a lot since the Not Rape Epidemic was published in Yes Means Yes. I was prepared for men to challenge my piece, but I was unprepared for men to come and say they could relate, or that they also had “not rape” stories. Please make sure your comments allow these men the room to speak. – LDP

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  1. links for 2009-04-15 « natthedem’s domain on 15 Apr 2009 at 11:06 am

    [...] Racialicious – When a Man is the Victim: A Second Study in Rape Apology [...]

  2. links for 2009-04-15 « natthedem’s domain on 15 Apr 2009 at 3:36 pm

    [...] Racialicious – When a Man is the Victim: A Second Study in Rape Apology Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Merry Christmas Us.Rachel Maddow Interview…Mystery Girl [...]

  3. Why Rape Jokes Aren’t Funny « Gallivant by POPPY GALLICO on 02 Aug 2009 at 2:07 pm

    [...] Google ‘why rape jokes aren’t funny‘.  You really don’t need to take my word for it, when so many other amazing, strong feminists have written about it.  (warning: some are [...]

Comments

  1. Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    Many people think that rape can’t happen to males because they’re, well, MALES, and males must LOOOVE sex and would like to have sex with an older woman. *rolls my eyes*

    I’ve always been appalled by U.S pop culture celebrating young boys’s crushes on older women (Stacy’s Mom, anybody) and pretty much encouraging the older woman to make a move on the young kid.

    It’s pretty sad that nobody takes male rape seriously. Unless, you know, he was raped by another dude.

  2. gatamala wrote:

    Gruesome. This is really cruel. In their eyes he is just a caricature and not a person.

  3. Vee wrote:

    I saw the interview the day after it aired and was shocked. He definitely admitted being raped and was clearly not joking.

    I caught this article a little while back and was shocked when I got to this line that was not clearly explained and can be easily misconstrued.
    It’s certainly true that black men are hyper-sexualized, (PAUSE)

  4. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Vee –

    Here’s Cara’s response, from her blog:

    # Anonymous on March 30, 2009 3:07 pm

    “It’s certainly true that black men are hyper-sexualized.”

    Serious?
    I’m wondering, do you mean that black men are hyper-sexualized?
    - just hyper-sexualized beings?
    - stereotypically hyper-sexualized
    - hyper-sexualized in the media

    —-
    I saw this video a while back and was kind of shocked because he announced that he was raped as a child. He didn’t use the word, but I did sound uncomfortable even talking about that experience.

    # Cara on March 30, 2009 3:12 pm

    Anonymous — “hyper-sexual” would be the term that one would use if they thought that black men (or any group) were actually far more sexual than any other set of people. “Hyper-sexualized” is a term used to describe the act of making a person or group appear more sexual than they actually are. So when I say that black men certainly are hyper-sexualized, I mean that our culture sees them as hyper-sexual (which is a very offensive stereotype), not that I personally think they are hyper-sexual.

    Is that more clear?

  5. Elton wrote:

    Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    It’s pretty sad that nobody takes male rape seriously. Unless, you know, he was raped by another dude.

    Since when is male-on-male rape (e.g. in prison) taken seriously? Seems portrayed more like a punchline (e.g. “don’t drop the soap”) than anything else.

  6. Cara wrote:

    Hey Vee,

    Yeah, what I said earlier. Or, to make it more clear, when I say, as feminists are prone to do, that little girls are regularly hyper-sexualized, I don’t mean that little girls are often hyper-sexual beings (UM, NO). I mean, our culture regularly, falsely and dangerously treats them as though they are hyper-sexual. The “-ed” at the end of the word really does make a difference.

    Though I agree once it’s been pointed out that it would have been better, more clear and less problematic to write “It’s certainly true that our culture hyper-sexualizes black men” instead.

  7. fruitoftheloon wrote:

    Ugh, I hate the logic people use to legitimize male rape. If anal sex isn’t explicitly mentioned, people assume it was vaginal. If it was vaginal, the male must have had an erection, so *clearly* he must have enjoyed it. Never mind that science repeatedly tells us people can’t control their own sexual responses, and that sexual response doesn’t equal emotional or mental consent or enjoyment.
    And since society defines ‘men’ as having sexual experience (and the ability to throw a punch) boys who are raped are just super-manly men who made the transition from boy to man at an early age.

  8. Lainad wrote:

    Cara, thanks for this.

    I watched the video and it disturbed me. I had heard this story before but yes, there was something about the interaction between the men that rubbed me the wrong way.

    I think L’ill Wayne is in a real predicament. It obviously affected him but he has no voice to articulate to others exactly how much it did and provide a narrative to others about this problem. I might be being a bit negatative here, but is the Hip-Hop community really interested in his experience? We’re still scratching our heads over female victims of domestic violence.

    While Jimmy Kimmel does not come off as the most sensitive man in the clip, I understand how what he perceived as a juicy news tidbit went horribly wrong – I don’t even know if he even realizes that Wayne’s ‘experience’ was a sexual assault. Wayne is supposed to be this street thug , macho and has lived in such a hyper-masculine lifestyle that is emulated within Hip-Hop culture, and Kimmel (and his producers) were / are more wrapped up in his public persona verus him as a human being.

  9. Asada wrote:

    Watching Lil’ Wayne on Jimmy Kimmel is like watching Paris Hilton when she was on David letterman. It was just embarrassing to watch. They didn’t ask him anything about himself other than sex, his appearance and well as past incidents and then product placement.

    I guess this is just a mans way of talking about the issue?

  10. [dave] wrote:

    Good piece.

    I think a lot of men struggle with a really simple part of “male rape” in a male-female situation. I’ve had to explain, slowly even, to anti-oppression sensitive, open-minded guys that you can have an erection and still not “want it.” The easiest example I use is how someone might want to have oral sex but not want to have intercourse — thus, there is an attraction, there’s the physical reaction that makes further sex “possible” (i.e. an erection), but if it goes beyond oral sex without consent then its rape. This applies to all straight/gay/gender-nonconforming relationships.

    But then this leads into the stuff that Cara was getting into …. does society “believe” men when they say they didn’t want to have sex? There’s a belief that unless you’re being penetrated it can’t possibly be traumatic. And that’s another place where people can’t step out of their own heads/situations. “THEY” wouldn’t feel traumatized therefore anyone who finds it traumatizing is “less than” or lying.

  11. cb3n wrote:

    Great post,

    not to get too personal cause personal experiences seem to more readily derail comment boards, but the topic reminded me of a conversation I had a few weeks ago while visiting a friend. I was in a group of queer men and for whatever reason the concept of consent under the influence came up and the consensus of the group I was talking to was that if a person is sober enough to have an erection then they were sober enough to consent. Further, if they had an erection they were implying consent. The argument being that if an unwanted sexual situation were to occur, one would lose their erection (and if one was too drunk to mount or maintain an erection one was too drunk to consent).

    I just wanted to share that because I think it has relevance to the idea that male on male violence is viewed as more serious than female on male which has come up in these comments. It was implied to me that we were talking about whether or not a person with an erect penis can be raped regardless of the identity or genital configuration of the aggressor and the general feeling amongst the group was that physical arousal, in the case of an erect penis, implies consent. It seems like a no-brainer to me that it doesn’t, but I was surprised that amongst this particular group of queer men, it does.

    So, if this particular group’s opinions can be broadened to represent cultural norms (a risky proposition at best, I’ll admit), it seems as though we culturally believe that if a person has an erect penis, anything can be done to him/her/hir and it won’t constitute sexual assault or rape. That seems to jibe with my sense of cultural norms, but maybe I’m generalizing this single conversation too much.

  12. Desirae wrote:

    That article was an eye opener. Thanks for that. I have a lot going through my mind about the ways in which gender, age, and race inform the discussions about rape and other forms of sexual assault. Though I was disappointed to find, when I visited the original post over at Curvature, that the poster who shared his experience was completely shut down…

  13. PPR_Scribe wrote:

    I couldn’t even get to that point in the clip. From Kimmel mispronouncing his name (it’s “lil” not “little”) in the intro, to Gibson helping himself to Carter’s hat, to the long bit about how much his teeth cost… The whole interactions just rubbed me the wrong way. I thought that if I kept watching I’d hear them ask if they could touch his hair. Then I’d really be through.

    @Elton: I agree that adult male on male rape is not taken seriously. It has even become normalized slang/metaphor for any situation in which someone feels they are being taken advantage of. But adult male-child male rape is taken seriously, IMO. Not saying that it is not still highly stigmatized and that victims do not still have a very difficult time with disclosure because of this.

  14. jordan wrote:

    I don’t want to be the Jimmy Kimmel defender in the crowd, but I do think he immediatly realizes that Lil Wayne’s talking about a negative sexual experience rather than a positive one. The thing, as everyone notices, is that he and Lil Wayne have absolutely no language, literal or emotional, for talking about. I think Kimmel is really stuck in a way that is familar and troubling. How do you acknowledge a man’s sexual assault, molestation or rape without emasculating him?
    On the other hand, asking a person to talk about how he lost his virginity at 11 and not being prepared for it to go someplace dark seems crazy to me. I agree with those who are suggesting the only way it makes sense is if you see your guest as a sexualized persona rather than a person.

  15. B. Canseco wrote:

    I don’t want to be the Jimmy Kimmel defender in the crowd, but I do think he immediately realizes that Lil Wayne’s talking about a negative sexual experience rather than a positive one.
    =======

    Hey Jordan, if Lindsay Lohan were talking about a similar sexual experience at age 11, would you feel the same way?

    For all, let’s ignore personal experiences or songs like Stacy’s Mom, for example and just look at the popularity of Female Teachers Raping Students in the last 5 years. How outraged has any of us been by these cases?

    How many “Where we these teachers when I was in school?” have been attached to these cases?

    If you want to extend this further lets look at the concept of MILFs and Cougars, etc. Call it a guilded cage, golden handcuffs, or flatout double standard, but there’s an underlying wisdom that says women, particularly older women can’t be predators; and when they are, it’s so shocking and out of the norm that there must be some mental illness, abuse or some larger issue at play.

    But guys on the otherhand, hey, “predator” = male.

  16. Titanis walleri wrote:

    “Many people think that rape can’t happen to males because they’re, well, MALES, and males must LOOOVE sex and would like to have sex with an older woman. *rolls my eyes*”
    See also: any case involving a female teacher taking advantage of a male student…

  17. Eva wrote:

    “I don’t even know if he even realizes that Wayne’s ‘experience’ was a sexual assault. Wayne is supposed to be this street thug , macho and has lived in such a hyper-masculine lifestyle that is emulated within Hip-Hop culture, and Kimmel (and his producers) were / are more wrapped up in his public persona verus him as a human being.”

    I agree with this.

    For people who don’t think it’s rape when the perpetrator is female, think about how you would feel if it was your 12 year old son or nephew with an older person. It’s not funny or cute when you look at it like that.

    I believe race is key here because of what some people see as a “child.” Some people don’t see a child living in the “hood” as a child, because of the things that child may be subject to. But that doesn’t change the fact that 11 is 11 no matter where you live. If the law doesn’t respect that then we’re in trouble.

  18. natalie stites wrote:

    My own brother “lost his virginity” at 9 y.o. to his 16 y.o. babysitter. This was not regarded as a rape, but just an indicator of his (later) sexual prowess.

    Since finding that out when I was 19, I have heard SO MANY stories just like my brother and Lil Wayne…and the jokes in many popular films about these types of rapes (i.e. Meet the Fockers)…has dismayed and disgusted me to no end.

    I am very encouraged that someone is talking about this, and has a theory in place to situate this phenomenon within our society’s tendency towards sexual violence and grossly unbalanced gender relations.

    And as usual, Jimmy Kimmel nauseates me with his wealthy-white-male-superiority complex.

  19. D. Mati wrote:

    I remember many years ago in my deviant behavior class in college (around 1995)we talked about male sexual assault. The professor explained that a male can be assaulted by a female even if not sexually attracted to the female. He stated that the male would be shocked/ frightened of the attack/situation & wouldn’t have too much control of their bodies since male arousal can be triggered by stress.

    I mention this from hearing other men speak on the situation with lil’ wayne: ‘would of beat her *ss, etc’ type of comments.

    I think most men need to stop deluding themselves & take male sexual assault seriously, especially since it’s under-reported. Be they children or adults, male or female, no one should be forced into sex, period. The blowing off for that tough guy image isn’t helping anyone.

  20. Free wrote:

    Yes, this story is triggering and highly offensive. Who were those people in the audience? Disgusting. I’ve never liked Jimmy Kimmel’s show. I wonder how people would have reacted if Lil Wayne would have said, “Hey man, rape ain’t funny.” Would the audience have continued laughing? Would TMZ come after him for not playing along? Of course, that didn’t happen, so there’s no way to know. But people, this shit is fucked up.

    I remember one serious attempt in popular culture to take male rape seriously. I don’t know if anyone else will remember, The Rape of Richard Beck, a TV movie in the 1980s about the rape of a male cop by two males. Richard Beck, (portrayed by Richard Crenna), was an insensitive cop who made crude remarks to and about female rape victims, (I suffered through a cop like that).

    Speaking of female rapists and male rape: http://www.newswatch50.com/mostpopular/story/Gouverneur-prison-worker-admits-sex-with-inmate/q-dyZXrcdUqASKjG5NkGNg.cspx

  21. L. wrote:

    ” just look at the popularity of Female Teachers Raping Students in the last 5 years. How outraged has any of us been by these cases?

    How many ‘Where we these teachers when I was in school?’ have been attached to these cases?”

    I know this hasn’t been reflected in the public, but both the cases and the responses in the media have disgusted me to no end. For me, the person that comes to mind when thinking about the reactions is Jay Leno. I used to flip between him and Letterman to pass the time before Conan, and after nearly every case like this hits the media, Leno made either the exact remark above or one quite similar to it. The fact that rape, in any form, is lauded and encouraged by anyone– especially celebrities with their level of influence– is deplorable.

  22. Mariella wrote:

    Thanks for this post, Cara.

    The whole video was racist (I only watched up to the point where the rape comes up). Gibson annoyed me by taking his hat and by advising him like a lawyer. Before the details of the rape came up (I think?) their racist hyper-sexualization of Lil Wayne was clear to me when Kimmel said something like “WE couldn’t [lose our virginity at that age], HE could”

    It’s interesting to me that Kimmel knew to ask if it affected him negatively. It makes me wonder if Kimmel realized in that moment that it was rape. I suppose he could have thought the subject would be interesting, realized it was rape, then made a terribly tasteless joke to save the comedy (NOT cool to ask if the baby is a virgin). That does NOT make it ok, in fact it might make it worse, but I just wonder.

    I think Lil Wayne is incredibly courageous for not only describing the incident the way he did (instead of making it sound like he was into it to save face, which would have been understandable), but also for admitting that it affected him negatively.

    It’s so, so wrong that male survivors are never taken seriously. My own mother (who has been so supportive of me as a survivor), when I brought up a male survivor of female rape recently blurted out “how is that even possible?”

    We have such a long way to go.

  23. Elahater wrote:

    this is unbelievable. I’m also really disappointed in Charlie Gibson who should know better.

    @ jordan
    “On the other hand, asking a person to talk about how he lost his virginity at 11 and not being prepared for it to go someplace dark seems crazy to me. I agree with those who are suggesting the only way it makes sense is if you see your guest as a sexualized persona rather than a person.”

    I agree. How could Kimmel have not been prepared for this? An 11-year-old was an 11-year-old, period.

    This is a great post and discussion.

  24. Free wrote:

    @jordan – An 11-year-old was an 11-year-old, period.

    I agree. But in a “sick fckn country,” (Three Kings), that ain’t true if the 11-year old is black.

  25. Paz wrote:

    I think the fact that he admitted the rape came as a shock given his very casual (almost stoner-like) attitude and body language during the interview. When he started telling the story he got a bit more serious though. (WTF was up with audience members laughing though?)
    This reminds me of an interview with Michael Jackson where he revealed that when he was young and touring with the Jackson 5, sometimes his brothers would bring girls back to the hotel rooms and because they shared beds, sometimes his brothers would have sex with a girl in the same bed that Michael was sleeping in. Even though that’s not rape, that has to be traumatic.

  26. Lxy wrote:

    These types of interviews are usually vetted and planned (in terms of topic) beforehand, aren’t they?

    Kimmel’s handlers must have prepped him on the details of Lil’ Wayne’s story, so he knew what was coming.

  27. Grace wrote:

    Probably no one is familiar with this case, but it happened in my town a few years ago. A 29 year old woman (Tammy Imre) was convicted of raping an 8 year old boy who was a friend of her daughters. She claimed they had a relationship, she wrote him “love letters”, and raped him. Though if you look this up, it says she “had sex” with him. Sorry, but you don’t “have sex” with an 8 year old, it’s rape. I remember hearing comments about it (I was in high school when this happened), people saying that this kid was “lucky” and that he wouldn’t suffer any negative effects in the years to come, because of course, all 8 year old boys want to be raped by older women. /sarcasm

    Anyway I just thought it was definitely related to this. I can’t believe that people would make light out of either situation, just because these acts were perpetrated against males. Call it what it is- rape. It doesn’t matter if the person in question is a male; if you’re 11 or 8 years old, you don’t have sex, male or female- it’s fucking rape.

  28. Ruchama wrote:

    Kimmel’s handlers must have prepped him on the details of Lil’ Wayne’s story, so he knew what was coming.

    My guess was that Lil’ Wayne had given some interview earlier where he was asked how old he was when he lost his virginity, and he answered 11 without really going into it further, and Kimmel (or whoever planned the question) figured that it would just be a weird factoid sort of question.

  29. lynn wrote:

    Medcialy it’s IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to rape a man- only by instrumentation via the rear. But against consent- that’s the issue, isn’t it?

  30. Kitten wrote:

    this is so sad. the number of black men i know who’ve had the same thing happen to them as kids…smh, whats wrong with the world?

  31. Myles wrote:

    One day I was rather annoyed and I turned to one of my guy friends and said:

    “You were so lucky you were ugly when you were middle school age and no girls wanted you”

    I think a girl was standing next to him at the time and she was about to say something in response to that, but my friend interrupted her with a solid:

    “Yeah, I was.”

    No sarcasm, no joking.

    I think, okay, know, that for a lot of guys (especially straight guys) this is a huge fantasy for them. One day they just wake up and all of them women around them want them for purely sexual reasons. I’ve heard more than a few straight guys talk about how hot it would be to have a sexy female teacher want to do them when they were in High school, or assorted sex-on-demand-in-middle/highschool-would-have-been-great fantasies.

    Yeah, been there, been under that.
    P.s. Wasn’t fun.

    I think what a lot of guys don’t really get is that they are in control of their fantasies. They pick the woman they want, their mental harem, and set the sexual scenes.

    When you’re a guy and a girl or woman decides that she wants you, or just wants to use you, you don’t have any control. You don’t pick who, when, where, or how.

    I’ve had more than one guy tell me I lived the fantasy. I hit puberty pretty young, I got. . . erm, sexually assaulted the first time when I was 9 years old. And had to put up with her sexually assaulting me on a pretty much daily basis for a few weeks. From then most of the girls and women I was around treated me like I was some whore God placed in their path for their comfort.

    This lasted until I was about 14-15 and a girl actually tried to go for the rape, on my best friend’s younger sister’s bed.

    That’s when I decided that I wasn’t going to put up with girls finding me to be attractive or useful anymore. I gained large amounts of weight, learned to act gay with the right amount of bitchiness, and girls magically left me alone.

    Of course many of the guys that I have told, or who have overheard me talking about this tend to have a fanboy, if-only-it-had-happened-to-me response. I have had more than one conversation to the tune of:

    “Eh, I got molested by a female doctor when I was 12.”

    “Dude! That is so hot! Lucky!”

    “Not really. My mom was in the room, and I didn’t want to freak her out because I thought it would lead to awkwardness. It was pretty gross.”

    “. . . . that sounds pretty hot. I wish I was lucky enough to have stuff like that happen to me.”

    *facepalm*

    One of my guy friends that actually understands how messed up things like this are referred to it with something to the effect of “every straight guy’s best nightmare.” And it is.

    On the surface it sounds so wonderful and sexy. Every girl you’re around wants to grope you.

    The reality is that you’re dealing with some stank breath girl you don’t like, who is extremely heavy handed and doesn’t give a damn about if you get off.

  32. Lauren O wrote:

    Medcialy it’s IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to rape a man- only by instrumentation via the rear. But against consent- that’s the issue, isn’t it?

    I think you are a little confused about the definition of rape.

  33. Myles wrote:

    29. lynn

    Nope, there are a number of ways you can get a guy to have an erection even if he doesn’t want to. And lets’ take a moment to refer back to paragraph that many articles about rape contain:

    “Many women experience physical arousal and even orgasm while being raped. This can be confusing for many women and may seem to conflict with their ideas about rape. But arousal and orgasm are not a sign of consent or that the woman “enjoyed it.”

    Some guys (human and other primates) get erections when they feel any form of excitement, even fear. I have heard of guys that were really worried that they were weird because they got erections whenever there was a thunderstorm.

  34. B. Canseco wrote:

    lynn wrote:

    Medically it’s IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to rape a man- only by instrumentation via the rear. But against consent- that’s the issue, isn’t it?
    ======

    Lynn that’s a pretty stunningly false and cold statement, tho not uncommon.

    For example, the great pedophile Roman Polanski raped a 14 year old victim not with his genitals, but with a wine bottle. He never actually penetrated her genital area with his genitals hence he only ever pleaded to “corrupting a minor” and simple assault. The word “rape” has never been used. He promptly fled first to Haiti then to France and has since been hailed by Hollywood as a victim of overzealous prosecutors.

    There are countless similar cases involving both genders as assailants and victims. And they all have one thing in common:

    Rape is rape is rape.

  35. Nathan wrote:

    Thanks for th psot, Cara, a lot of food for thought.

  36. Medusa wrote:

    @ B. Conseco-I don’t want to speak for someone else, but my interpretation of what Jordan said is that masculinity is such a (ridiculously) important part of a man’s public image, especially in the music industry and Lil Wayne would completely be emasculated in the public eye if anyone came out and (correctly) identified what happened to him as rape. I imagine there wouldn’t be much (if any) public support for him, just people ridiculing him for “whining” about getting lucky at the age of 11. I think if it had been Lindsay Lohan, because she’s white, Kimmel wouldn’t even have had the urge to bring it up on TV because he would at least have respected her right to keep quiet about something sexual that happened to her when she was 11, even if he wasn’t able to correctly identify it as rape.

    Kind of unrelated, but I doubt that more women have been raping their students in the past 5 years. I think news outlets are just capitalizing on it now more than they have in the past.

    @ Elton and Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist: I sort of agree with both of you. On the one hand, I don’t hear straight men talking about how “you should enjoy it” and similar bullshit that I hear any time female on male rape comes up. On the other hand, it usually is something that is played for laughs, like “cock-meat” sandwich scene in Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay anyone? I thought that scene was disgusting and couldn’t believe that everyone involved in making the movie thought it was fine to put men being assaulted in prison in there for laughs.

  37. Medusa wrote:

    Er, I should’ve mentioned that what I was talking about when responding to Elton and Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist is male on male rape, in case that wasn’t clear from my wording.

  38. elle the elephant wrote:

    I think alot of this apathy towards male rape victims, especially Black male victims, has alot to do with our perception of masculinity in this nation, as other people have said. Men are supposed to want sex all the time, its impossible for men to turn down sex, and it seems to me this limiting ideals to sexuality are imposed by men and women alike, alot of men like to measure each other on our sexual exploits. This can be awful for a young gay or asexual or low libidoed men who are just figuring out their sexuality, or want to focus on more intellectual pursuits and ignore sex. I can sympathize as I am a young man who is not that interested in sex and relationships right now, and my friends just hang on me all the time.

  39. Eva wrote:

    @Free:

    I remember that movie, “The Rape of Richard Beck.” I remember it very well because it really hit me; I think it was the first TV movie that really dealt with male rape (ABC Movie of the Week).

    What was interesting about that movie, was how insensitive he was when, in the beginning of the movie, a woman was raped and didn’t want him to touch her, she wanted to talk to a female police officer. Beck got pissed off and didn’t get it, but when he was raped, he didn’t want the male officers to touch him.

  40. Cara wrote:

    Thanks all for responding to Lynn. I saw that and was about to . . . only to read on to see that you folks had already done a great job.

    But yeah, whatever it was supposed to mean (it’s not rape because he has an erection? It’s not rape because only being penetrated is rape?), whoa. Fucked up. Sadly, though, also not uncommon.

  41. Lamees wrote:

    Kimmel got wind of the story from a recent interview Wayne did with Playboy i believe. its making the rounds on gossip blogs and response and writing in the posts are incredibly insensitive and downright racist.
    he describes the rape at age 11 and i cant believe after reading this, someone would t hink it an appropriate or funny topic for a latenight tv show.

    http://www.playboy.com/articles/lil-wayne-dirty-dozen/index.html?page=2

  42. jordan wrote:

    @Medusa – thanks and excellent elobration on the point about masculinity.
    @Myles – I’ve always had a certain level of respect for guys, who I perceive to be able to deal with the embarassment of well, involuntary erections, with a certain degree of shared humor. But, I’ve sensed that it’s not always funny, and that’s more difficult to talk about. Basically, thanks for your comments, which illuminate some of the less-than-funny, more confusing aspects of being a boy negotiating adult sexuality. Even if one is naive about how a boy can be raped, it becomes clear that is possible for a girl to rape when she is aroused by and pursues an unwilling partner in the way you (and Lil Wayne) describe.

  43. anonymous wrote:

    Cara, thanks for posting about this. I’m a regular commenter here, and my husband was a victim of sexual assault by an adult woman at about the same age (I think he was 10, actually), and it is always really triggering for him to hear the constant jokes and trivializing remarks that people make about this kind of situation. I hope he doesn’t see this clip. People need to know that trivializing these assaults is really hurtful to survivors.

    I don’t think there is any contradiction between teens and young men having crushes on older women (Stacey’s Mom, etc) and people recognizing that adults should keep their hands off of kids — just like there’s nothing wrong with a preteen girl having a crush on Johnny Depp, but it would obviously be wrong for a guy his age to take advantage of that. I agree with the person who said that fantasy is something you can control. There’s a huge difference between fantasizing about something and actually consenting to the reality of it.

  44. Pheno09 wrote:

    I don’t have much to add to the cnversation except this: I am truly sorry for lil wayne that he had to suffer this as a kid and I’m sorry that the audience and host made a laughing matter out of something that was obviously incomfortable for him.

  45. Abu Sinan wrote:

    It is pretty sick. At age 11 one cannot make an informed consent to sex, so any sex with an adult is rape, no matter what gender the victim is.

    As a father of two boys you better believe me I’d be filing charges against any woman who abused them, not giving high fives to everyone around me.

  46. Ashmo wrote:

    So the video wasn’t up today when I read this article, but even after reading the post I think I got the general idea of what happened, and I was absolutely disgusted. It definitely sounds as though Jimmy Kimmel doesn’t recognize Lil Wayne’s rape as an actual rape – the fact that he laughs at him & makes in into a joke makes that clear! Living in a world where Black men being hyper-sexualized is part of the normal discourse of society is a huge problem, which leads me to another problem – people don’t want to consider woman-raping-men as a real issue and it goes hand in hand with society thinking that men (especially Black men) always want sex and they are always turned on. Why people don’t want to believe that the female can actually be the predator is beyond me! I feel quite bad for the men in this society because it’s as thought they are no longer a man if they admit that a women raped them, because they’re supposed to be the tough/masculine guy who can dominate anyone, and they of course would live to have sex with an older woman. In Lil Wayne’s case, I think its especially hard for him to talk about and admit what happened to him because as an audience, we are cultivated into thinking that rappers are hyper-masculine and that they want/have sex all the time with many different women. I feel like people such as Jimmy Kimmel don’t want to believe that he was raped because they just go with the mainstream view of how we see these rap artists. I totally agree with #18 Natalie states post when she said “Jimmy Kimmel nauseates me with his wealthy-white-male-superiority complex” because I totally see Kimmel as making fun of a traumatic event that happened to a young Black male, even thought it was clear that the line of questioning is making Wayne uncomfortable. People need to start taking this issue seriously, or else it’s just going to be a reoccurring pattern and no one is going to want to step up and get help for themselves because they are too afraid.

  47. Myles wrote:

    I’ve been thinking about this piece for a while and I think that if Lil’ Wayne had been a white the reaction would have been the same. I know more that a few white guys that have had similar experiences with girls and most of them are treated by other men with the same “I wish I had your problem” ideology.

    I remember when I was talking to one guy that “lost his virginity at 12.” I was pretty quick to relate to him because I was hoping to have someone to talk to without having to constantly sugar coat and dance around. . . . issues.

    But he was pretty quick to cut off my comment and tell me that is was with his female babysitter and that it wasn’t the best and most enjoyable of situations.

    This seems to indicate that he has had more than one guy immediately assume that he was so happy and thankful to “lose his virginity at a young age.”

    When he found out that I had similar experiences, we became a little but more comfortable around each other.

    A lot of the guys that I know who have been sexually harassed, assaulted, and/or rape tend to have that “I know it’s your fantasy, but it wasn’t ‘hot’” chip on their shoulder when they are talking to other guys. I think being treated like a hypersexual He-man/Manwhore is a pretty common experience across races.

  48. NO_ID wrote:

    i saw this when it aired and didn’t think twice about it, since that’s the usual line of questioning a white male host will give a rapper. but watching it again, i do think he admitted that it wasn’t exactly consensual and seemed really surprised to have the question even asked. However, given what Wayne did say, was the JK Show going to be an appropriate place to take that line of questioning any further. It’s and entertainment/comedy show. It would have been worse had their been more conversation about what was apparently a relatively sensitive issue that appeared to be sprung on him.
    I do think however, that many men experience a similar situation and yes, I think they are taken advantage of. The movie “Antwone Fisher” really illustrates what happens to some young men who experience their first sexual experience in that way, and I’d recccomend it to anyone struggling with this issue.

  49. laura wrote:

    poor guy probably never got the help he needed. I’m glad you guys are writing about this and trying to deal with the stigma of male rape victims!

  50. kerrita k wrote:

    i love this post. and truly believe that rape is neither male nor female – but culturally constructed like race and gender…

  51. Christine H wrote:

    I don’t really know anything more about the Lil’ Wayne case than I’ve read here, but I am a Red Hot Chili Peppers fan and read about Anthony Kiedis’ situation in his autobiography. It sounded like when Kiedis lived with his dad as an adolescent, there was pretty much a complete lack of age-appropriate boundaries. There’s a picture in the book of Kiedis holding his first joint, which was given to him by his father, on his eleventh birthday. So I think he was basically thrust into the adult world of sex, drugs, etc. at a ridiculously early age.

    As an adult, Anthony Kiedis has unfortunately had a pattern of being sexually involved with much younger women. He has a toddler now, and the mother was 18 when she and Kiedis got together. (Kiedis was in his early 40s.) I wouldn’t be surprised if the lack of boundaries between him and his father as an adolescent, and all the situations he therefore had to deal with before he was developmentally ready, contributed to his drug addiction later on. I’m very happy that he eventually quit the drugs, but I hope he can also learn about healthy boundaries between people of different ages while his child is young.

  52. diana m wrote:

    found the article quite interesting, but the video of the interview with kimmel doesn’t seem to be available anymore.

  53. Terry McCall wrote:

    The video of the whole interview can be found here:

    http://vodpod.com/watch/1406050-lil%E2%80%99-wayne-jimmy-kimmel-interview-3-3-09

    And wow. I know it’s easy to hate on Kimmel but dang.

  54. Celestia wrote:

    “Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! wrote:

    It’s pretty sad that nobody takes male rape seriously. Unless, you know, he was raped by another dude.

    Since when is male-on-male rape (e.g. in prison) taken seriously? Seems portrayed more like a punchline (e.g. “don’t drop the soap”) than anything else.”

    I seriously doubt Jimmy Kimmel would EVER joke around with Joaquin Phoenix or Axl Rose about their childhood sexual assault experiences. Both were abused by men.