Russell Peters: Still Got It?

by Special Correspondent Thea Lim

A little over half a year ago, I wrote a fawning article about Russell Peters, trying to justify why I love him in spite of the fact that he could easily be criticised for making racist comedy.

I said that I loved Peters because his comedy is (unintentionally?) subversive: it highlights the relationships communities of colour have with each other instead of speaking to, or centering the experiences of white folks. And many commenters on my original piece pointed out, Peters often talks about his sibling communities of colour with fondness rather than ridicule. But then the other night I sat down and watched Red, White and Brown, Peters’ 2008 DVD.

Russell, you cut me deep.

So what’s wrong with Red, White and Brown? Last year Latoya posted an excerpt from a Kate Rigg interview, where Rigg explained very eloquently what makes racist comedy racist:

I’m offended when I see comics get onstage going “…and then I went to the Laundromat. Ching-chong, ching-chong, ching-chong!” Then I’m fucking offended. When someone tells a joke about Asian people and there’s no actual joke – the joke is the Asian people. The joke is [racist-comic voice] the funny way they talkie-talkie! “They don’t use proper diction! Only verb and noun! Verb and noun!” I just heard a comic that I respect doing that fucking joke the other night. An Asian comic. And I was like, “Dude! Write a punch line or you’re just being racist!”

Peters’ seems to have lost his punchline. There’s lots of different things you could criticise in Red, White and Brown. Peters throws in some shallow Michael Moore style criticism of the war in Iraq that still manages to be Arab/Islamophobic. Sepia Mutiny has an interesting analysis of Peters’ jabs at deaf people. Red, White and Brown gave me a lot to think about, and I’d like to address Peters’ “hatred” for deaf people and his comments about Indian authenticity in a later post. But right now I’m gonna focus on that stupid “Chinky” accent.

Peters opens Red, White and Brown with five minutes of his Chinese accent. And hey, I guess people love his Chinese accent. But where it once highlighted a very funny bit about the way Indian and Chinese people do business together, it’s now become the joke. When the only thing Peters is doing is talking Chinky, it’s not a joke anymore.

He starts by pointing to random Chinese-looking people in his audience, and talking in his Chinese voice. But chances are at least one (if not all) of the Chinese people in the front five rows of his New York audience are Chinese Americans. As in, they don’t talk like that. They’re Americans, you jerk.

But you know what? There is a Chinese American accent. Just like there is an African American accent. There’s a WASP accent: I think Dave Chappelle is famous for having perfected it. So why can’t Peters learn the Chinese American accent, and then do that? That would be bringing it back to the arena that Peters once did so well – giving us something in mainstream comedy that we can relate to.

But it’s almost like success has made Peters sloppy. He doesn’t have to learn how to do a Chinese-American audience, he doesn’t have to work as hard with the rare and affectionate insight. He’s already packing houses, so why should he try harder? And the sad fact of the matter is that in North America, you can fill a house just by doing a stupid racist accent.

So I guess my second criticism is moot. But the next misstep Peters makes, distancing himself from his old lovable self, is when he talks about playing Dance Dance Revolution in Singapore. And then he does his Chinese accent again. Ok, Chinese people in Singapore don’t talk like that.

(Sidebar: the accent Russell does well is some imitation of a Cantonese person who speaks English as a second language. But the Chinese diaspora is huge! There’s probably at least 20 different Chinese accents. You can’t just use one to fit everybody. We’re a complex people, thankyouverymuch. It may seem strange to ask a comedian for racist accent accuracy, but part of what made Peters’ act so genius was the accuracy.)

And what kills me is that Peters is talking about his time in Singapore. In other words, Peters has been to Singapore, he knows Chinese Singaporeans don’t talk like that.

The Singaporean accent is very distinctive and easy to tell apart from the Cantonese accent. (In fact Singlish is a pidgin language that is studied and marvelled at by linguists all over the place. Just Google it: you can even find multiple online dictionaries.) Almost anyone, but definitely someone with Peters’ ear for accents and culture, can hear it.

Yet he still chooses to make the joke. Because he assumes that for the most part his audience won’t know the difference. And then he goes on to joke that a Chinese Singaporean makes fun of his DDR skills, suggesting that he should go play a game his people are good at – the Taxi Game. Again, the joke fails, because the South Asian taxi driver is not a stereotype that exists in Singapore; it’s unlikely a Chinese person in Singapore would use that to insult an Indian person in Singapore. And he chooses to make the joke anyways because he assumes his audience wouldn’t know that.

So he’s gone from making inside jokes that are all the funnier if you’re a person of colour familiar with the context, to making jokes that are only funny if you don’t know the context. Le sigh.

And you know what? It’s not just that it’s racist. It’s also just bad comedy. Good comedy takes a fact of real life and magnifies it, holding it up for us to see it and laugh. But when a comedian like Peters gets lazy, their comedy begins to base its jokes on inaccuracy. It’s good comedy gone bad. And that’s why ableist/sexist/homophobic/racist/… jokes aren’t funny: it’s a skewed version of real life.

I’m not gonna say I didn’t laugh a few times during Red, White and Brown. It wasn’t so awful that I would organise a boycott. And if I’d never seen Peters’ earlier stuff, I probably would’ve liked it a lot more. But it seems like that good-natured ribbing and clever analysis that was once the hallmark of his act is gone.

And Peters not even particularly subversive anymore. The one edgy joke he makes is about Jewish people and Arab people, and that’s not exactly an original joke. It lacks the unexpectedness of his early acts, where his nudging of the status quo was subtle and smart; a joke about Israel/Palestine is not uncommon ground.

Ok Russell. Maybe you are not a Racialicious reader. But if you are listening, I have something to say to you. If you’re not just in it for the money, if you’re really trying to make brilliant comedy, do something new with that tired accent. Those people who loved you solely for the Chinese accent you did? They were missing the pure, buoyant genius of your act. Don’t let them dictate the kind of comic that you are. You’re better than them, and I still believe you can come back.

In your own Chinky-ass words: be a man and do the right thing.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. To be like, wtf Epik High? « motivations. on 29 Mar 2009 at 10:41 pm

    [...] showed me this post on racialicious, which criticizes Russell Peters for stepping over the.. well I guess it should be [...]

  2. To criticize Epik High. « motivations. on 29 Mar 2009 at 11:23 pm

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  3. 8Asians.com » Epik High’s (Bad?) Attempt at Humor on 31 Mar 2009 at 2:32 am

    [...] to the way they present their material, but if you don’t buy that, Thea Lim at Racialicious why she thinks Russell Peters stopped being funny and became offensive in his newest act, and I buy it. Thea claims that when the “jokes” lack a certain punchline, they become [...]

  4. POP 88, A J-Pop and K-Pop Podcast » Epik High’s (Bad?) Attempt at Humor on 31 Mar 2009 at 2:57 pm

    [...] to the way they present their material, but if you don’t buy that, Thea Lim at Racialicious posts on why she thinks Russell Peters stopped being funny and became offensive in his newest act, and I buy it. Thea claims that when the “jokes” lack a certain punchline, they become [...]

Comments

  1. mistersquid wrote:

    I remember seeing a Russell Peters DVD and thinking it was mostly entertaining but far from enlightened. Sort of a multy-culty punch show for minoritized yuppies and the whites who like them.

    Now the (il)logic of why specifyin’ (”chinky” language) is (not) so funny comes back to haunt you and you’re crying foul? I applaud you for coming to your reason but am surprised it took you another look see.

    I bet if you went back to the “old” Russell Peters you’d see just as much of what irritated you as you did in the “new” Russell Peters, with the exception that the jabs weren’t quite as close to “chinky” as they are now.

  2. Sobia wrote:

    Aww…Russell Peters. I have to admit I’m a Russell Peters fan. My objections to his work are more regarding his sexism and ableism. (What the hell was up with him making fun of hearing impaired people??!!)

    But as far as accents go, there are so many Indian/South Asian accents and he does just one. Its the most familiar one to the Western audience. I guess he does the same for the Chinese. And I’m sure many of his Indian audience also have American/Canadian accents.

    Though to be honest I liked his bit on Arabs. I didn’t see it as Islamophobic because he wasn’t talking about Muslims, but Arabs. And he was actually criticizing the ways in which Western media portrays Arabs. I thought he actually did a good job on that one.

    I have to admit I didn’t enjoy this DVD as much as the first.

  3. Fiqah wrote:

    From the clip: “The fans have spoken, making Russell Peters the number-one comedic draw on the planet.”

    ::: folds upper lip into mouth :::

    Mmnph.

    I am pondering what this implies for the state of global race relations. Co-sign, as I am also saddened by Peters’ angle-shift.

  4. Restructure! wrote:

    What does an African American accent sound like?

  5. macon d wrote:

    Yeah, looks like he’s gone downhill.

    I posted about a race-talking comedian today too, Louis CK. In one clip, at least, he does good work–a white comic getting laughs while talking honestly about white male privilege–which seems pretty rare, for a white guy. Are there other comics who do that?

  6. queerhapa wrote:

    I’m confused, Thea. What is a Chinese American accent? Do you mean the accent of a 1st generation immigrant whose first language is Chinese? Is this “accent” distinct in itself, or is it not shaped by the particular dialect of Chinese they speak, the part of the diaspora they emigrated from, and the region of N. America they settle in? And doesn’t describing something as a “Chinese American accent” imply that most Chinese Americans speak with this accent, regardless of their immigration status and whether English was their first language? Would it have been less offensive for this guy to speak in a more “authentic” Chinese accent to his Chinese American audience members even if they were, say, third or fourth generation and didn’t speak a lick of Chinese?

  7. Xay wrote:

    @Restructure

    I would also like to know what an African American accent sounds like. Especially since I’ve noticed that if you close your eyes and listen to an African American and a white American who were born and raised in the same area and have similar backgrounds *gasp* they sound almost exactly the same.

  8. Thea wrote:

    @Restructure & Xay

    That is a good point! I admit I am not well versed on American linguistic variations, I haven’t spent much time actually in America (though I’ve watched a lot of American TV/movies…not the same thing!) Maybe like Xay suggested I am thinking more of regional variations. So maybe I am associating an African American accent with a region where there are lots of black folks.

    However I think there is definitely a different set of vocabulary in black and non-black America. I think linguistics is one way that people differentiate themselves, especially in a racially heterogenous society. What do you think?

    @queerhapa

    I’m Chinese Canadian (among other things) and I don’t think I speak with a “Chinese Canadian” accent. I do think however that 1.5 and 2nd generation Chinese Canadians/Americans sometimes have a similar lilt to the way they speak. (I am probably thinking of people whose families are Cantonese – when I was growing up in North America Cantonese people were the largest dialect group.) There are linguistic generalisations (stereotypes?) about many ethnic groups. Usually, while I stand by the fact that these ways of speaking exist, these accents are not super noticeable and not everyone speaks that way.

    And yes essentially you’ve proved my point that the “Chinese accent” is not one thing and is very complex. I don’t think Peters is going for racial complexity, but I do think it would make more sense for him to talk like a Chinese American – and yeah, that would still be a generalisation – than essentially someone new to the country from Southern China, if he’s trying to describe a North American Chinese population.

  9. F. wrote:

    Can we talk a bit about how appropriate it is to use “chinky” as a descriptor, even if the speaker (Thea Lim) is Chinese American themselves? Actually, Angry Asian Man is a Korean American, yet he has coined the phrase “the chink-eye” to describe the act of people pulling on the corners of their eyelids to imitate “Asian eyes.” And Margaret Cho in a recent blog post also uses the word “chinky” in reference to the Miley Cyrus incident.

    Maybe this isn’t the completely right post to ask this, but: in pointing out and discussing racism, do we really have to use the word “chink” or variations of it ourselves?

    PS: I’m only mildly disappointed to hear that Russell Peters has gone downhill. I knew it would happen. The more press and fame he gets, of course the cheaper his jokes will get, to appeal to a wider, usually dumber audience. The audience lapping up the imitation of a Chinese accent (”Wow, how hilarious and original!”) reminds me of that Latina comedian who is famous for doing a Vietnamese accent she picked up from living in Westminster, CA (her audience laughed as soon as they HEARD the accent, nevermind what she was actually saying with that accent).

    Because Asian accents are inherently hilarious, right? I suppose the rest of the word is lucky that at the moment its not more important to learn Mandarin, because God help them if they had to learn that. Maybe Chinese comics could make fun of their accents, too.

  10. Thea Lim wrote:

    @mistersquid

    Alas I have watched the old RP stuff and I still like it…I think there is a marked difference between the old and new stuff.

    @Sobia

    I felt like his piece on Arab people was a caricature (rather than based on people he actually knows) and also fed into existing stereotypes about Arab people (ie that mofos are crazy and will eff you up). And I thought his comparing Arab terrorists to American “rednecks” totally oversimplified and even obscures the motivation behind terrorist attacks on the US.

    I think again if it was anyone else I would’ve been like Hrm, interesting – but because it was Peters I had much higher expectations.

  11. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ F-

    Good question. Derail granted.

    I’ll drop back in later and explain my thoughts on the matter, but I’m interested in hearing what everyone else has to say.

  12. Lola wrote:

    I think there may be an African American accent as I’ve been told my entire life I don’t sound black, by both blacks and nonblacks. Perhaps not an accent but a deeper tone seems to be expected.

  13. A.D. Nix wrote:

    I’ve never heard of Russell Peters (does this mean I’ve been under a rock? I feel like I’ve missed something) but . . . I don’t like what I’ve seen or read thus far. I’ve reflex-laughed at a lot of terrible things (people falling down, for example) but I couldn’t squeeze out a single guffaw.

    So, for me, Russell has failed on the most basic level. But maybe this clip just didn’t include the jokes.

    Imitations of racialized people when not explicitly individualized (Deepak Chopra vs. Indian Guy or My Dad vs. Some Black Man Talkin’) are a very tough sell for me. The tumble into gross caricature and stereotype is almost guaranteed.

  14. queerhapa wrote:

    @ Thea: You wrote, “And yes essentially you’ve proved my point that the “Chinese accent” is not one thing and is very complex. I don’t think Peters is going for racial complexity, but I do think it would make more sense for him to talk like a Chinese American – and yeah, that would still be a generalisation – than essentially someone new to the country from Southern China, if he’s trying to describe a North American Chinese population.”

    I’m still struggling with the logic here. How could he “talk like a Chinese American” if “the ‘Chinese accent’ is not one thing and is very complex”? I’m 3rd generation Chinese-Am (also among other things) and speak with a New York accent, but I haven’t heard this supposed Chinese American accent among any of my 2nd generation family members or friends.

  15. Elton wrote:

    Is this what Dave Chappelle was so afraid of doing (going from making people laugh at racism to making people laugh at minorities) that he quit his show?

  16. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ Lola
    Don’t be so quick to buy what those people are trying to sell you. I think those are faulty goods.

  17. Lauren wrote:

    African-Americans do have a deeper tone, as well as speech patterns that are very close to those of West Africans.

    It’s not a bad thing, people. Geez.

  18. Thea Lim wrote:

    @queerhapa

    As I said I don’t think every Chinese American talks the same. Many Chinese Americans don’t share anything in common linguistically – if (as Xay suggests) you closed your eyes you would have no idea what their race was. If my post seemed to be implying that I apologise and you are right to question that.

    I don’t talk like that, you don’t talk like that – BUT that doesn’t mean that there is no way of speaking that many Americans/Canadians born in America/Canada and descending from Chinese lineage sometimes pick up. There is definitely a tone unique to Southern Chinese North Americans. Again not everyone shares it, but it’s there.

    Comedy and esp RP’s comedy is not about particularising – it’s about generalising. My argument was simply that if RP wants to do an accent for his Chinese American audience, there is one that is more accurate than the Hong Kong one he always does. Is it totally accurate and spot on for all Chinese Americans? No way! But that was never my point.

  19. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Using the word “chink” and its variations…here’s my take: I get the reasons why Thea, Phil at Angry Asian Man, and Margaret Cho use the word. I don’t think any of them are dropping it casually, like a form of greeting other folks of East Asian descent or referring to another person of East Asian descent in confabs–sort of the way the N-word is used nowadays among some teenagers. And I don’t get the impression that any of them are on a Word Reclamation campaign, either. To me, they’re using the word to point out anti-East Asian racism because, in the US, the word “chink” is a slur against anyone with what the insulter believes to be “(stereo)typical ” phenotypical traits, i.e. “all Asian folks have slanted eyes.” In other words, Thea, Phil, and Margaret are uisng the word in a very particular context.

    Now maybe, F., you’re concerned that East Asian writers/thinkers/creatives/folks in general using the word “chink” will go the way of the N-word. As my gurl Fiqah described in a post:

    As late as 2004, when I tried vainly to make the argument that the kids in my predominantly Latino neighborhood used it with an impunity that was just unacceptable. The person I was talking to, a biracial man who self-identifies as Black, argued back that the word, which could never be reclaimed, was viral and out of control, and that Black people using it amongst ourselves had made that possible. I’ll never forget that discussion, where I defended my use of the Word That Would Not Die with the usual lame-ass rationale. Of course, I have made it a point to try and not use it ever since; it’s hard.

    Dunno, F. I have no answers for you. But I do see your concern around the word. Personally, re: the use of the phrase “chinky-eye” to describe the anti-East Asian insult….damn, I’m partial to calling it The Miley Cyrus from now on myself. Like Dan Savage successfully getting post-anal sex secrections santorum, after the anti-gay Congressman Rick Santorum. Just a thought.

  20. Fiqah wrote:

    @Elton: Word to the third. Chappelle stepped back when he realized that his satire wasn’t being processed as such by the vast majority of his viewing audience. Satire, of course, ceases to be satire at the moment it perpetuates what it intended to skewer/mock. Or something like that.

  21. brdnbutta wrote:

    I’m not able to watch the video right now, but do want to repsond to the African American accent. The word “accent” was probably not the most accurate descriptor, but linguistically there is a dialect spoken by Black Americans particularly in the South and regions that Southern Blacks have migrated too, which is called African American Vernacular English. I would also agree that generally speaking the tone of both male and female Black Americans sounds deeper overall. I wonder if there is any scientific evidence to support? I have always been told I don’t “sound Black” over the phone and Ithink it is in large part due to the fact that I have a voice that is in a higher range (it’s not squeaky but it’s kind of close).

  22. Fiqah wrote:

    @The Cruel Secretary: Awwwww! Props on a Friday – WHOOT! That’s all I need. :D

  23. Thea Lim wrote:

    @ A.D. Nix

    Aw, I would recommend you watch the videos from my original RP post. (see first link) You might not find them funny at all (like mistersquid) but I’ll always have a soft spot for them…whether or not I should! That was basically what my first RP post was about.

    @queerhapa/brdnbutta/everyone

    I’m realising that my original discussion of accents among different ethnic American groups was maybe a bit too quick. Maybe “accent” isn’t the right word – maybe tone or lilt would work better?

    I think that people often align themselves with their ethnic group linguistically. These differences are very subtle and maybe are only obvious when people are all together. Maybe you can’t hear them over the phone. But I do think they exist. Think of the movies Better Luck Tomorrow or Tokyo Drift for example of the very slight East Asian American lilt.

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with showing your ethnic solidarity via the way you speak – in many cases it could be a point of pride. But maybe it’s wrong to call it an “accent” because it’s not something that applies to everyone and perhaps it’s more of a change in tone?

    I dunno, what do people think? Do we project an accent onto people as soon as we see their ethnicity – do ethnic lilts or tones not actually exist? Or is it an oral way to show solidarity?

  24. Thea Lim wrote:

    @F.

    I’m glad you asked this question and it did cross my mind as I was writing the word “chink” over and over in the process of putting together this post.

    (Btw I was also concerned about using “be a man” – that’s a ref to an old RP skit, but that’s not a phrase I would ever endorse myself.)

    I think The Cruel Secretary really hits it on the head – the word “Chink” has become shorthand for all the nasty stereotypes and the history of racism experienced by East Asians in the West. I use the word because it has very particular connotation that quickly expresses what I am trying to get at. I only use the word when I am talking about racism – and the twinge it creates (even in me!) when I speak/write it, reminds me of why anti-racist work is so important.

    Because it creates a twinge, it’s a word that has power. So we live in this “politically correct” era – what that means is that people will be racist, but won’t want to seem overtly racist. When people are being covertly racist sometimes I feel like they are just stepping around the word “chink.” Sometimes throwing it out in the open blows open the whole charade and makes people own up or at least consider the fact that they are being racist.

    I would never use it as a form of address for another East Asian person – it just has too much pain embedded in it. I think the words “Chinaman” and “gook” are similar. I don’t know what I would think if it did start to get used as a friendly term between East Asian people.

    I get pretty upset when the word “chink” is used outside of a discussion about racism. I don’t really think it’s appropriate for a non-East Asian person to use it.

  25. Lola wrote:

    Do we project an accent onto people as soon as we see their ethnicity – do ethnic lilts or tones not actually exist? Or is it an oral way to show solidarity?
    ————————————
    I think some blacks have a deeper tone that they learned from their family. My mother does not have this tone so I do not. The problem is that the expectation of this particular tone has been projected onto all black people so that black people with other tones or accents are told they “don’t sound black”. A friend of mine is from central Africa, here he has been told by some that he “does not sound black”, and his response is “What do you mean I don’t sound black, I’m from freaking Africa, idiots!” Many ignorant people do not understand that language is a function of culture and not a product of race.

  26. Xay wrote:

    @ Lola and Lauren

    I wasn’t saying that having an African American accent is a bad thing. Simply that it isn’t true.

    I’m African American, raised by in the Southeast US by a South African mother. I barely have a Southern accent and I have been told that I sound “white” on the phone. why? Because I learned English from a woman who learned the Queen’s English as a second language.

    Furthermore, there have already been studies on this issue. There are more similarities as far as accent within regional groups than ethnic groups. Slang is different and even then, there are significant regional differences.

  27. Sobia wrote:

    @ Thea:

    “And I thought his comparing Arab terrorists to American “rednecks” totally oversimplified and even obscures the motivation behind terrorist attacks on the US.”

    Good point. However, and this totally could be a result of my poor memory, I don’t remember him comparing Arab terrorists to American rednecks. From my memory, and again I could be wrong, he was speaking of the Arabs Western news often show who are burning flags or protesting in the streets. Not the terrorists, but rather the angry and emotional protesters. Personally, I know that has always been a complaint of mine and many Muslims I know. We’ve always felt that whenever the news talks to Muslims in Muslims countries they ALWAYS talk to the most emotional person and the one who speaks the least English, almost as if to purposely portray us as hotheaded, inarticulate people who no one should take seriously. That is what I pictured and thought of when he said that. That is why I was glad to hear him compare “that Arab guy” to “that American redneck.” He showed how ludicrous it was to assume that particular Arab voice is representative.

    But if one were to read it as a comparison between Arab terrorist and American redneck then, yes I can understand your criticism.

  28. Paz wrote:

    Re: Accents
    It’s not just about geographic region, it’s also about your socialization. Think about a city like LA, where accents vary, even among those who are native Angelenos.

  29. foshothoyo wrote:

    he blew up because he learned that vaudeville works for white audiences, and audiences that wish they were white. He wanted the big money, so he got more racist, and BOOM all of a sudden he’s got his own special and a worldwide tour…

    anything that is based in vaudeville racist garbage is always going to be awful, and it will always get the big money.

  30. mistersquid wrote:

    Lots of good posts about the nature of accents, epithets, and humor.

    I also wanted to say, Thea, that I also find earlier humor by Peters funny. I am sure I would find parts of the newer material similarly funny, laughing at the implications of my own racist/racial stereotypes.

    I would also be troubled by it, which I’m guessing you are (to some extent) also.

  31. Restructure! wrote:

    Thea,

    If you agree that you can’t tell someone’s race over the phone, but you claim to hear an ethnic lilt when you watch movies featuring Asian Americans, it means that you are projecting an accent on people as soon as you see their race.

    I’ve had people mistake me for having a Chinese accent when I had a cold and couldn’t pronounce nasal consonants. I seriously doubt that white people get mistaken for having Chinese accents when they have colds.

    *sigh*

    A year ago, there was some comment on Racialicious by an American asking what a “Chinese Canadian accent” sounds like. I said that there’s not such thing as a “Chinese Canadian accent”.

    However, for the past year since then, I’ve been testing this informally. I would be in a crowd and sometimes hear a person talking who made me think that the person was Chinese Canadian but not a “FOB”. I would then turn around and check their race to see if I was right.

    Most of the time, I was right, but sometimes, I was completely wrong. One time this person who I was sure was Chinese Canadian turned out to be a white girl. Another time, I was sure the voice belonged to a black girl (not faking it like how people fake AAVE), and the girl turned out to be completely East Asian.

    It might be that I was picking up a Markham/Richmond Hill accent combined with a higher-pitched voice and assumed that it was a marker of ethnicity.

    Anyway, Xay’s point is better. There have already been studies on this issue.

    We Torontonians have Canadian raising (which we can’t hear it ourselves), while Vancouverites apparently don’t have Canadian raising. There are tons of studies about regional accents.

  32. Clara wrote:

    Hmmm, I’m a fan of Russell Peters’ older comedy, I will admit. I’m with the camp of people who found his comedy subversive and more affectionate than hateful. I actually laughed a lot at his “chinky” accent (as he used in his early comedy acts) because it really sounded Cantonese to me. I come from a Cantonese-speaking family (by way of Hong Kong) and I swear, Peters’ accent really sounded like a native Cantonese speaker who was speaking English as a second language. Like, that accent was familiar to me. I know people who talk like that. I’m just used to hearing comedians (and people on the street) use the generic “Asian” accent; my reaction to that is, “I don’t sound like that and I don’t know anyone else who sounds like that either.” So hearing Peters use this accent that actually sounded Cantonese was a strong moment for me.

    And while faking languages is really problematic, I actually thought that Peters got the tones right when he was doing his Cantonese gobble (this was in a skit in which he interacted with an immigrant from Hong Kong). He wasn’t actually saying any Cantonese words, but the tones he used really did sound like Cantonese ones (we have nine tones yo, as compared with Mandarin’s four).

    My point is that I was a Russell Peters fan because he showed that he really did take the time to observe and polish his imitation, rather than spew out an accent that sounds vaguely Asian, at least in the case of his Cantonese accent. I appreciated this, a lot.

    Judging from the video Thea posted here… it seems like I’m not going to appreciate it anymore. I’m going to have to watch more clips in his act, but just from the clip here, his jokes weren’t really that funny.

    About the “Chinese American” accent– I actually think there is a bit of a lilt that some Chinese Americans (regardless of whether they came to the US by Hong Kong, Taiwan, Beijing, etc) I know do use, but I think it’s more of a regional thing. In the Silicon Valley of CA’s bay area, where I live, there is definitely something in their speech that sets them apart. I always noticed that the way I spoke was a little bit different from my non-Asian friends. But then again, in the northeast where I go to school, my friends who are from NYC’s Chinatown have a completely different accent from me. So I think there is definitely an accent (of some sort) that Chinese Americans have, but it’s not homogenous and it depends on the region.

  33. Lxy wrote:

    The mockery of Asian (and particularly Chinese) American speech is a recurring feature of anti-Asian racism.

    And it can be seen as related to an enduring American tradition: Minstrelsy.

    Popular thoughout the 19th-century and into the 20th, minstrelsy of course involved Whites (and even Black) performers donning blackface to mock, denigrate, and ridicule African Americans.

    This minstrel sensibility is alive and well in America today–albeit in somewhat more subtle forms.

    And ambitious minority performers will always face pressure to pander to it and pimp for it.

  34. Miles Ellison wrote:

    The minstrel sensibility isn’t subtle. The problem is that people either don’t recognize it when they see it, have any idea what it is,or think it’s inoffensive when produced by people who are its targets (the work of Tyler Perry comes to mind).

    The problem with racial comedy is that its practitioners usually lack wit and are ignorant about ethnicity. This turns their material into a collection of racist jokes and impressions. And let’s face it, that’s what a lot of people actually want; to say racist things in the name of “humor” and not have their racism be challenged. Like it was in the “good ol’ days” before political correctness ruined everything for the hardcore white supremacists.

  35. sk wrote:

    I don’t think much of Russell Peters. The accent jokes are very lazy and I can’t bring myself to even smile at any joke made at the expense of persons who are deaf or who have hearing impairments.

    I’m Indian and I don’t think he sounds Indian when he tries to speak like someone raised/educated in India. It’s a caricature, meant to make us the object of ridicule. I don’t think I sound funny and I don’t enjoy people making fun of the way I speak. I have an American cousin who used to mock my speech, but he stopped when I started correcting the grammar and spelling in his emails (for instance, he spelled “hassle” as “hastle” and I never let him forget that!).

    I also dislike the jokes about the immigrant parents. Seems nasty to me.

    The only actors who are able to sound like people educated in India are the ones on Goodness Gracious me-their accents are usually not exaggerated just to get easy laughs.

  36. sk wrote:

    Oh, and I HATE the generic “Chinese” accent.

  37. edna wrote:

    Restructure! wrote:”It might be that I was picking up a Markham/Richmond Hill accent ” . . .I like that.

    If you listen carefully, you can catch the Queen West accent. . .Tthere’s a Canadian singer (sorry, can’t remember her name) that has this accent. . .I’ll try and remember.

    Also, Margaret Atwood has the upper class Leaside accent.

  38. Taryne wrote:

    “Dialect” is the technical term that everyone is reaching for here when talking about accents, tones, and lilts. Dialect accounts for all the variation in how people actually speak a language. There being no one true English, it is represented by lots of different dialects. Each of us speaks a dialect and whether we are speakers of the prestige variety like the mysterious “proper mid west” dialect or some more stigmatized variety, we each belong to a community of dialect speakers. That of course doesn’t mean that just because many African Americans do speak African American English (a dialect) that all do or even that some people of other races don’t speak that variety. I think that what people are responding to when they say “hey, you don’t sound X”, is that you are not speaking the dialect most associated with your race/gender/region and that is surprising to them. –why that should be surprising is another discussion, one of perception and perhaps stereotyping- That said, describing things like “Cantonese English” is tricky because, as other have noted, different generations speak something different and CE in areas of California is different than CE in NYC. Often when 3rd generation Americans have lost their heritage language and have become monolingual speakers of English, traces of the heritage language are present in their English in the form of certain pronunciations and word choice. This is super apparent in south Texas. It is important to talk about these things though because language is so connected to identity (racial and otherwise) and I think that is what a good comedian can tap into.

  39. Taryne wrote:

    P.S. Much like the many discussions here about the dangers of color-blindness and avoiding talking about race, I think that saying “there is no such thing as talking African American or Cantonese American” misses that fact that communities of practice have certain ways of speaking, but that it is never as simple as X=Y

  40. Paz wrote:

    Actually, I do hear slight accents by some Asian-Americans, specifically Chinese, Filipinoo, and Korean. There is also a Mexican-American accent that I’ve heard by some people, such as George Lopez or Constance Marie. I’ve never taken a linguistics class, so unfortunately I don’t know how to really explain how they sound like. Obviously though, not all people of any given ethnicity has the same accent. (As a Mexican American myself who doesnt have that accent, I don’t really understand how that accent developed, but I’m guessing it’s all contingent on a person’s community and family and upbringing.)

  41. Medusa wrote:

    @ Lauren-

    Are you joking? African-Americans do not at all have speech patterns similar to that of West Africans. Not even close.

  42. Rchoudh wrote:

    It’s a shame that Peters opted to cheapen his act for the sake of gaining fame and fortune. It’s kind of like a good movie that churns out crappy sequels. I don’t know much about different accents in general but I agree with Thea that using a generic Chinese accent as a way to “communicate” with Chinese brought up in the Americas is really dumb. It keeps the “perpetual foreigner” label intact on them. Peters is a disappointment in that regard.

  43. MelMel wrote:

    I’m so disappointed. Peters’ first stand up was spot-on. This one looks mediocre as far as the comedy goes. The Deaf joke sounds idiotic too.

  44. Lxy wrote:

    Re: Accents
    It’s not just about geographic region, it’s also about your socialization. Think about a city like LA, where accents vary, even among those who are native Angelenos.

    I agree with this point. It’s ultimately about socialization. Regional geographic area can be an influence, but there is significant hetereogeneity of speech within a region.

    It’s a question of what forces figure in a person’s linguistic socialization process.
    Ethnic and racial identity can be factors.

    And let’s face it, that’s what a lot of people actually want; to say racist things in the name of “humor” and not have their racism be challenged. Like it was in the “good ol’ days” before political correctness ruined everything for the hardcore white supremacists.

    Yeah. It’s interesting so see how racism and White supremacy mutate over time.

    This “new” (White) racism is just a more cowardly form of the old racism.

    Instead of coming out of the closet, as it were, it hides behind humor.

  45. c.n.edaw wrote:

    I am so glad I am not the only person who wondered what an “African American ” accent is. I was hoping to be enlightened.

    Someone has already explained dialect pretty well. It should be noted that there are certainly variations in black dialect. My Southern black friends sound nothing like my black friends in Chicago or L.A. or New York, UNLESS those people were raised by parents from the South.

    The tone thing is a bit trickier. I am a black female broadcaster, and definitely have a deeper feminine voice, but I KNOW people say I “sound white” because I enunciate my words and use correct grammar– the implication being (stereotypically speaking) that blacks as a whole normally do not.

    I recall from a communications class that white women in the U.S. tend to speak in higher tones, NOT because there is something genetic that makes their voices higher, but that white women back in the day (especially in the South and those of higher classes )were socialized, to speak “softer” and in higher tones to be thought of as more feminine and so as not to antagonize or threaten men and it sort of stuck as a cultural marker of good breeding.

    I recall being told there generally was no real difference between races in pitch and tone but we often speak or talk a certain way due to socialization and create expectations of people based on that as well. It’s the reason we are shocked when Mike Tyson speaks in his squeaky pitch; or when a big fat woman says she can’t sing ; or a short slight man has a deep resonant voice.

  46. Thea Lim wrote:

    @ Taryne

    Thanks a lot for the informative discussion of dialects! And co-sign on this:

    “I think that saying “there is no such thing as talking African American or Cantonese American” misses that fact that communities of practice have certain ways of speaking, but that it is never as simple as X=Y”

    @Restructure

    I am SO aware of my Canadian raising! It drives me bananas. Also it’s really hard to learn any tonal language (like Mandarin) – I feel like it’s a wrestling match to get my voice to behave, when it always wants to just go up at the end of my sentences.

  47. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ Thea Lim
    I’ve been having a really hard time relating to male stand-up comedians of any kind as of late but I’ll investigate earlier RP. Anny recommendations?

    @ Taryne #39
    I agree.

    I think it’s also important to acknowledge that telling someone they don’t speak AAVE and telling them they don’t sound “black” are two drastically different things. I have a (black) friend born in Mexico (just like her parents) who came to the States when she was 13. Expecting (and sometimes demanding) that she sound like a black woman who was raised in Chicago by the children of Georgians doesn’t make any sense to me. AAVE isn’t the only sound of “blackness.” And no one tells white New Englanders that they don’t sound white because they don’t sound like Minnesotans. Actually I don’t know that for a fact. But I think it’s a safe assumption.

  48. Ike wrote:

    The Chinese-American accent in Houston is a faux Mexican-American accent. =P

  49. Lisa wrote:

    Thanks to F for bringing up the usage of the C-word.

    It’s a tough topic. As Thea said, the strength of its offensiveness can highlight how bad the “Miley Cyrus” and other such behaviors are.

    Sometimes, warily, I use “chinky” or “ching-chong” as a way to describe cliched racist Western depictions of Chineseness. (And in how China sometimes markets itself to the West.) It does effectively highlight that they’re playing upon offensive stereotypes. But, when not in an in-person context, I worry about it contributing to the “making the word alright to say”. And I’m not ethnic-Asian, so my using it even for anti-racist intents is precarious.

    I always thought dialects were much more pronounced than accents. “Dialects” are usually mutually unintelligible, and are pretty much languages in their own right, like Basque vs Catalan, or Cantonese vs Shanghainese.

    I don’t think there’s an “Asian-American accent”, but there definitely are specific pockets, ie there’s a Taiwanese-East Bay accent, distinct from the Taiwanese-SoCal accent or Cantonese-East Bay etc. It’s that mix of the local accent plus having parents who are not native speakers and then some imports from the Taiwanese language as well as the Taiwanese accent in Mandarin.

  50. Daniel wrote:

    I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but I also have a bit of a hard time wondering about this “Chinese-American” accent. My family is Cantonese speaking but I was born and raised in the Midwest. I don’t even know if there if there are actual studies regarding this particular speech, so I can only refer to how many of my relatives, friends and aquantinces (born and raised in the US but of Chinese background) who live pretty much throughout the country…both Coasts, the South and Midwest, even Hawaii.

    So far, it sounds pretty much like whatever the local speech is. My cousin from Flushing has a very obvious New York accent (I don’t know which one per se, but it’s quite distinct for a Non-New Yorker’s ears) even his Chinese carries similar tones. The same thing with my American-Chinese friends who live in Texas and Hawaii. Since I moved to Southern California, I’ve heard a few people mentioned how the way I talk seems a bit distinct from the other ABCs in the area, but I’m really not sure how.

  51. Daniel wrote:

    Actually, I do agree with Lisa’s assessment regarding the Dialects. I do notice only a tad bit difference of some American-Chinese if they speak like Hakka, Min Nan, Mandarin, etc. but I’m still not sure if it’s enough to call it a general Chinese-American accent. It’s just their upbringing.

    I guess, it goes back to whatever you all were talking about regarding the complex diversity.

  52. lunanoire wrote:

    Re: influence of socialization

    A close family friend has a weaker NYC accent/dialect compared to her sister b/c her sister has more friends from the Bronx (the close family friend’s explanation).

    Yesterday I saw a group of young women laughing (all from the same race, ethnicity unknown) on the inhale. I wondered if it was cultural or social b/c I am more used to people laughing on the exhale.

  53. kmtown wrote:

    @ Thea:

    “I don’t think there’s anything wrong with showing your ethnic solidarity via the way you speak – in many cases it could be a point of pride.”

    I second this. However, you must realize that for many AA’s ethnic solidarity through language often amounts to rehashed, post-reconstruction caricatures of “Slave English” and so-called “hip” lingo (which is quickly becoming the pop culture norm among American youth of ALL races). Even still, this is not representative of how the group labeled African American speaks. The whole AAE vernacular business accounts for an outsider’s notion of IDIOMs intermittently used by a sub-culture within the African American group. Ethnic solidarity through region, music, food and other elements of culture is a different story… (ie Louisiana creoles )

    “However I think there is definitely a different set of vocabulary in black and non-black America.”

    So, when those of “non-black” descent pronounce some English words DIFFERENTLY it’s of little consequence in the way of vocabulary, but the way some black people pronounce English words, well, that constitutes a “different set of vocabulary”. Throughout history statements like yours are preemptively used to assert those similar to this one: “…I ‘sound white’ because I enunciate my words and use correct grammar… blacks as a whole normally do not.” (#45) Hmmm…. Sigh.

    “But maybe it’s wrong to call it an “accent” because it’s not something that applies to everyone and perhaps it’s more of a change in tone?”

    You may be on to something … ;)

  54. kmtown wrote:

    @ Taryne:

    “It is important to talk about these things though because language is so connected to identity (racial and otherwise) …”

    The problem lies in the logic of some of you people who are prone to thinking that your voice represents everyone else’s (or the truth even). It is fact that people who belong to the “race” that is categorized as African American are not 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation Africans in the Americas. Many AA’s have roots (tangled-with some Native, European and other admixtures) in this country that reach as far back as the 16th century, time long enough to acquire the new language and lose all traces of their former language(s). There are no West African resemblances in the way people of African American heritage pronounce any words…Where word choice or even tone is concerned, that is merely the product of social rearing (ie class, region, gender, etc…) or low and behold – personal preference.

  55. Sobia wrote:

    All this talk about accents reminded me of a conversation I had with a South Asian friend of mine. Both him and I were raised on the east coast of Canada. He know lives in Toronto and I close-ish by. He was telling me that there exists a Toronto South Asian accent that he noticed when he moved to TO. At first I thought he meant maybe among first generation immigrants who would have been raised in South Asia. But no, he meant among South Asians who were born and/or raised in Toronto. He demonstrated it to me and I recognized it as something I had heard from a couple of South Asian Torontonians I had met. Its odd because from what I know nowhere else in Canada will you find something like this. I’ve met South Asians from various parts of Canada but have never encountered a South Asian-Canadian accent.

  56. Taryne wrote:

    @kmtown

    You point out an important distinction between AAE and other dialects or varieties of English that are associated to a community through racial/ethnic ties rather than say region or other factors. I in no way meant to imply that AAE was the direct result of a foreign language accent passed down from speakers of West African languages. The history there is clearly not one of immigrants choosing to live in or near ethnic enclaves and passing on phonological and grammatical features from the heritage language to their children learning English, as is the case with so many varieties of English.

    John Rickford wrote a great piece outlining some of the different theories on the genesis of AAE. What makes the research difficult is that AAE was not a written dialect of English until more recently, so there are few letters or books to turn to for a historical perspective. I am most intrigued by the “creolist perspective” that he outlines:

    http://www.stanford.edu/~rickford/papers/SuiteForEbonyAndPhonics.html

  57. Nat wrote:

    I totally agree with you! I frequently watch Russell Peters on youtube and was shocked when I heard his “Singapore accent.” We don’t talk like that! at all! He’s just dumbing down for the audience instead of truly presenting a Singaporean accent. Perpetuating Chinese generalisations can get old……….he can be funny while being authentic………I bet he didn’t even play DDR in Singapore.

  58. m wrote:

    I attended Russell’s show in San Jose Improv. I thought his humour is getting gross and senseless. He made fun of latino women (vagina) and it was ridiculous. Russell has crossed the line…imho!
    My question is.. why he picked on latino women and not on Indian or middle Eastern women?.. I don’t think he can get away with it, if he aimed similar comments at Indian or middle eastern women!

  59. vet wrote:

    I think the accent/dialect topic begs some clarification…in casual speech the terminology is pretty loosely defined, but in linguistics, an “accent” refers ONLY to pronunciation, whereas a dialect refers to the accent in addition to vocabulary, syntactic constructions, etc. Neither is a stigmatizing word – everyone who speaks does so with a particular accent and dialect, be it Queen’s English or General American or African American Vernacular English (AAVE or AAE).

    Notably, AAVE is a well-studied dialect of English (wikipedia it!). As a dialect it has certain pronunciations, and yes, certain vocabulary as well, not found in General American English, although some of the AAVE vocab does find its way into mainstream American English – it’s just the nature of language.

    One’s dialect is a function of many things: for one, region. We all know this – it’s why there’s a British accent, a Boston, Jersey, Philly, SoCal, etc. accent. And although ethnicity doesn’t define how you speak, there’s usually a fairly good correlation between ethnicity and your cultural surroundings growing up. That means who you are around, what languages you’re exposed to, and so forth. So yes, it is possible for a dialect or accent to appear to be a function of ethnicity. Of course, it’s important to remember that no rule is hard and fast when it comes to these things. Not all black people speak AAVE, just as not all New Yorkers have New York accents. A lot of times it just boils down to a case by case basis.

    As a linguist, you don’t make judgments as to what accent or dialect is superior to what others, and you don’t use labels like “correct grammar” or “correct pronunciation” and so forth. I mean, who’s to say if British English is superior to American English? It’s a subjective matter you can debate all day. But in the end you can agree that it’s *socially* appropriate for American newscasters to speak American English, and British British. Society dictates what accent/dialect is advantageous in what contexts. Generally, linguists only want to describe what variation exists, and ethnic dialects definitely DO exist. Not just in a deeper voice, but there are AAVE-specific pronunciations and syntactic constructions. For more, wikipedia “prescriptivism” vs. “descriptivism”.

  60. Sergio wrote:

    HI Thea, I found your article while looking for Russell Peters’ videos (agree with you, the guy used to be funny but know that he’s going to Vegas his new material is not that good anymore, lot of pre$$ure to be funny).
    I was born in Lima, Peru, and had a lot of PBC (peruvian born chinese) friends at High School.
    Almost all of them were 1st generation peruvians (meaning both parents were chinese, mainly people from Guangdong)
    They all speak perfect spanish, but there was always something a little different in the way the speak, a little tone, I don’t thing it qualifies as an accent but a little tone for sure.
    I was told later that it happens to everybody (not only chinese) who learn the local language as a second language. I mean most of this PBC friends spoke only cantonese at home until they turned 3 years old, then learned spanish in kindergarden. Even if you master the language (spanish in this case) your brain is marked with the first language you learned, the mother tongue, so unconsciously you will always drop some sounds of your mother tongue into your second language, it is really minimal, as I said it doesnt qualify to be called an accent, but it is there.
    I’m pretty sure my 5-year old daughther, born here in Vancouver-BC, will have that little spanish tone when she grows up, even if she speaks perfect english.
    PS: If you think my written english sucks, you should listen to my accent, really strrrrrong spanish accent

  61. Sergio wrote:

    …and I’m trying to convince my wife to put my little one into mandarin classes in a near future, so she can speak the 3 most importants languages in the world: english, spanish and mandarin…