Comments

1. Restructure! wrote:

   It’s not quite like it was before, when there were only two Asian kids in your school — you and this other boy/girl — and everyone thought you two should go together to the prom. Forced coupling. Now half the school is Asian, so it’s not such a big deal. Something like that.

   LOL!

   Also, since half the school is Asian, maybe marrying another Asian doesn’t seem so incestuous.

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 10:37 am ¶

2. Restructure! wrote:

   If a Japanese American marries a Pakistani American, is that considered marrying a person of the same race, since both are Asian Americans?

   In the article, a Chinese American dates a Korean American, and this is used as an example of an Asian American dating within the same race.

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 11:00 am ¶

3. Ike wrote:

   “Conventional wisdom has it that in the open-minded Obama era, they will begin choosing spouses of other ethnicities as the number of interracial marriages rises.”

   That’s funny, because Chinese and Korean are different ethnicities…

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 11:53 am ¶

4. Chris Chambers wrote:

   “open minded Obama era” appears to be a fluke as folks, down deep, are as parochial, racist, nasty as ever.

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 12:13 pm ¶

5. Alpha Asian wrote:

   Yeah, the first time I remember this conclusion being drawn (that
   Asian outmarriage is decreasing) was in the 90’s. Although back then,
   the reason for the decrease was there was more inter-Asian
   intermarriage. Nowadays, the reason for the decrease is because
   people are marrying within their own ethnic group. I see it here in
   the Bay Area, because there is such a huge Asian population. If
   anything, I’m noticing more interracial dating between Asian men and
   white women than Asian women with white men. But that’s only in the
   Bay Area.

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 12:23 pm ¶

6. Asada wrote:

   There are so many reasons this is/could be happening. I get skeptical when I read a blip of it.
   Where are the actual studies and the authors?

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 12:56 pm ¶

7. JC wrote:

   I see this as a positive trend, as Asians grow in number and influence, the number of people believing in “marrying up” to whites will decrease. A lot of second and third gen AAs have developed the AZN identity, that anyone with ancestry from the Asia-Pac region is a brother and sister, so they start “intermarry” more. My parents would not consider Koreans or Philippines the same “race”, but today’s AA kids would. More positive self-image will do that to you.
   I don’t mind seeing Asian marrying whites for love (I just wish the number of AM/WM and AW/WM ratio were closer), I just want the subconscious idea of marrying whites to get higher social/financial status to end. This is the mentality of many first gen immigrants, especially women, but people with this kind of mentality is decreasing rapidly (especially with this global financial meltdown).

   I think with the advances in telecomm technology many have helped many AAs who grew up in white isolation. They can now be exposed to real Asian culture (yes, hot Asian men and women do exist) and online comraderie (like this forum) which would help foster a positive self-identity. This may have contributed the higher Inter-Asian marriages we see today.

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 1:52 pm ¶

8. Minotaar wrote:

   I stopped caring about the rates of Asian interracial dating. What I care about now is the percentage of Asians who make informed decisions about the racial implications of their dating patterns. Maybe this corresponds to an increase in a certain type of racism over another type of racism. Or an increase in one type of sexism over another.

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 1:55 pm ¶

9. LU wrote:

   You ever wonder if it’s a cultural and not a racial issue? Personally, I believe there are certain serious downsides when it comes to being a woman, for example, in Korean culture (my background). These are things such as practices or attitudes expected of a Korean woman that I fundamentally disagree with. I’ve gotten into fights with Korean elders, some related to me and some not, about such things much to my parents’ dismay. I and they believe it’s much better for me to avoid dating Korean/KA men because we both know I won’t act a particular way to satisfy cultural norms. Anyway, my two cents…

   Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 3:14 pm ¶

10. h wrote:

    Dating within different ethic Asian groups is inter-ethnic dating. Do people forget this? Society doesn’t always recognize the ethnic breakdown of “Asian”. I feel this lack of cultural understanding is a fundamental problem in dealing with the Asian American community. As a Korean American woman, dating a Chinese American man is much different as dating a Korean American man.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 5:17 pm ¶

11. Ejunco wrote:

    Lol@ ” open minded obama era

    I’ve never really noticed a difference wether it be a decrease or increase, I do agree with one of the comments above that there is an increase of asian pride especially with my Filipinos.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 7:04 pm ¶

12. Vik wrote:

    Why does it always break down to Asian and White like there are no other types of interracial relationships?

    @ h: I agree with you there. Within the broad scope of the Asian race there are vast differences in cultural feelings, beliefs, and tolerances.

    Where I live I see Asians, both male and female, dating any race and ethnicity across the board. There’s no dating up or down. For the most part it’s just dating. I’ve never really witnessed a couple based on an Asian fetish and for the party of the specified race want to participate in that relationship probably means they’re as wacked as their pursuer.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 7:34 pm ¶

13. Lisa wrote:

    As a Filipina in an interracial marriage, I’m a bit skeptical of the “research” trends, especially with the issues raised by other commentors concerning how Asians are all grouped together under one umbrella. A Filipina and a Caucasian man is just as interracial as a Filipina with a Chinese man.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 7:58 pm ¶

14. Don wrote:

    Of course there are inter-ethnic differences among the Asian groups, but some of us share more common experiences growing up in America and still being a member of a minority group. This of course applies to 1st generation Asians who grew up in the states. As an Indonesian-American I have attracted other Asian females in my life as well as other races. Otherwise I am glad to here this news if it is true. I admit to glancing and staring at mixed Asian/white couples. I am not against this per se, if you happen to fall in love with someone, but if you have sex with him because you think being with a white guy will improve your status in society. then something is wrong with you.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 8:46 pm ¶

15. John Jihoon Chang wrote:

    I definitely remember the occasional hinting of pairing with one of the few Asian girls in high school, that is, within the same high school social circle. That was a long time ago.

    Now that I live in LA, no one hints at me pairing with anyone. Which can be a good thing or bad thing.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 9:11 pm ¶

16. vodalus wrote:

    Just to be the devil’s advocate here, but if a Korean-Chinese pairing is interracial, then is a Spanish-Swedish pairing? I’ll buy inter-ethnic, but I am unconvinced of interracial.

    Of course, this plays directly into the question of what makes a race? Chinese-Korean, inter-ethnic. Chinese-Malaysian, inter-ethnic? Chinese-Indian, interracial? Chinese-Afghani, interracial? Chinese-Persian, interracial. I imagine that all of these labels could be argued ad nauseam.

    Posted 18 Mar 2009 at 11:01 pm ¶

17. Lxy wrote:

    Regarding this issue, sexuality–like everything in the USA–reflects the broader social hierarchies of American society.

    This includes race as one important factor among other things that subtly though powerfully shapes what is deemed attractive, desirable, etc.

    The popular Mainstream refrain that “Love is Colorblind” is at best naive if not disingenous.

    And addressing how race and White Supremacy impact sexuality is a topic that not a few people would rather sweep under the rug, as it would raise uncomfortable questions about America’s racial caste system.

    But then again, one can always keep drinking that Post-Racial Kool Aid.

    @ vodalus

    Uh, the Post article did not say that a Chinese-Korean American pairing was interracial.

    In fact, it said the opposite. It was an example of an Asian *intraethnic* pairing, just as a Swedish-Spanish example reflects an intraethnic European pairing.

    Posted 19 Mar 2009 at 12:18 am ¶

18. Mr. Kedi wrote:

    While dating a white men do somehow mean moving up the social ladder in North America (esp back in the days); it is nice to point out that that some Chinese do secretly tend to look down on all the other race/ethnicity/region. Being a Chinese (Hong Konger) myself, I was told from my community that only Chinese is my true and only suitable mate, because “white people are promiscuous, hairy and actually pretty darn barbaric blah blah”; “Indians are smelly”, and all the things are can imagine.

    Posted 19 Mar 2009 at 4:27 pm ¶

19. vodalus wrote:

    @Lxy, I know. But several of the commenters seemed to disagree with that and argue that a Chinese-Korean or Chinese-Filipina relationship is interracial. Thus I asked the question and posed a series of origin combinations for analysis. I’m interested to see where Racialicious commentators decide to draw the lines.

    @Mr. Kedi, funny you should mention that. When my boyfriend (Hong Konger) told his mother about me (white woman) and my family, she had the funniest reaction. She thought for a moment and then told him in all seriousness, “well, if she was Chinese, she’d be too good for you.”

    I just think that was a hysterical thing for her to say. It just encapsulates so much.

    Posted 19 Mar 2009 at 5:02 pm ¶

20. Mr. Kedi wrote:

    vodalus: my bf’s mom is being pretty nice actually, which is kind of sad. My bf (tiginya ethiopian/czech), whom I’ve dated for five years, saw my Asian ex-friends and decided to give them a ride. My ex-friends accept the offer, until they saw his dad, an Ethiopian man, who is also in the car (or driving the car, can’t really remember who my bf told me). My ex-friend suddenly decided to turn down the offer ASAP and got away from my bf and his dad ASAP.
    Then they decided to disown me from the friend group (a clique) ASAP too.

    Posted 20 Mar 2009 at 12:36 am ¶

21. Lxy wrote:

    @ vodalus

    Are you referring to no. 13 Lisa’s and no. 2 Restructure’s posts? They are the only ones that I found suggesting (or questioning whether) interethnic Asian American couples are “interracial.”

    In the USA context, the Chinese-Filipino or Chinese-Korean American pairing would be *interethnic*–not interracial.

    Posted 20 Mar 2009 at 3:00 pm ¶

22. vodalus wrote:

    Yes, those are the specific posts. And I wish that they were still reading the comments so that I could learn more about their arguments.

    A common theme on Racialicious is that “race” is not always clearly delineated, as exemplified by people being told “oh, you don’t look X”. While ethnicity is a function of culture as well as phenotype, race is much more nebulous. US popular culture indicates the presence of white, black, Middle Eastern, Hispanic, “Asian”, Indian and Native American races. I was taught in a history course that anthropologists recognize “Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid” races based largely on bone structure. (I have no idea just how dated/racist these categories are.) At various points in history, certain European ethnicities were not recognized as “white”. “Hispanic” people vary in ancestry from largely European to largely indigenous American. And what about the many people groups in the Caribbean who have been “mixed race” for 200 years? Or Australian Aborgines? Are they “black” or “Polynesian” (which is generally considered Asian)?

    What I’m trying to convey here is that there are many conceptions of what constitutes a race and where the boundaries between races lie. 10% of the commenters here indicated that the “Asian” race category is too broad. When I considered the scope of what counts as “Asian”, this seemed a legitimate complaint. But at the same time, distinguishing between Chinese and Korean people based on race didn’t make sense to me. So I tried to put forth the question of which ethnicities fit into a given race–where do we draw the lines?

    Frankly, I don’t appreciate the dismissive tone that you’ve taken to my inquiry. Although no one else has felt inclined to discuss this notion, it is a valid line of questioning and relevant to the mission of this blog. In other words, you didn’t need to respond to me if you were just going to say “be quiet, you’re wrong.”

    Posted 20 Mar 2009 at 3:53 pm ¶

23. Lxy wrote:

    @ vodalus

    How was my post “dismissive”?

    In terms of your question, Michael Omi and Howard Winant have addressed the issue of racial formation in the USA and how, while it is “socially constructed” and mutable over time (as you assert), it also has *real* world effects in enforcing and promoting White dominance and racism.

    One thus has to look at a specific historical contexts and situations for definitions of race. There is no absolute definition.

    But this is also true of *most* other forms of social identity like American national identity, for example.

    For East Asian Americans, we are formed as a race due to common phenotypical attributes and the experience of dealing with American Orientalism, among other things.

    Secondly, the idea of Asian American itself arose as a political identity promoted by Asian American activists in the 1960s-70s who worked to envision a broader coalition of Asian American ethnic groups to combat a common enemy in the form of White racism.

    It drew inspiration from and was allied with similar movements like the Black Power and and Chicano movements of the time.

    Posted 20 Mar 2009 at 4:34 pm ¶

24. vodalus wrote:

    I don’t want to get into an argument about semantics, so I’m going to accept that I misread your tone. I do, however, want to clarify that I would *never* say that race lacked real life implications just because its a social construct. But, not being a person of color, I don’t want to impose my understanding of race when it contradicts the understanding of actual POC. So I wanted to hear why these women of color called something interracial that I would call interethnic. I’m still curious, but I’m more than willing to accept that my first impression was the “correct” one.

    Moving on to the content of your latest response, could you add some context this statement:
    For East Asian Americans, we are formed as a race due to common phenotypical attributes and the experience of dealing with American Orientalism, among other things.

    Specifically, do you think that this classification applies to other racial groups? And is it specific to East Asian ethnicities living in the US?

    Similarly, a common thread in Racialicious posts is the idea of “passing”, where an individual does not conform to the typical appearance of their ethnic/racial origins. Do you have any comment on this self-determination aspect of racial identity? I mean, do we have a right to tell someone that they can’t claim an aspect of their heritage because they don’t look the part? If a Fillipina feels that she is not the same race as a Chinese person, where do I get off correcting her?

    The lines are drawn somewhere, I agree. I’m inclined to draw them at phenotype–a pale girl with blonde hair and green eyes that’s 1/32th Cherokee is a stretch for me to consider interracial. But even if she doesn’t look the part or participate in the culture, she’s still a tiny bit Cherokee. I just find it problematic (as a European American) to tell someone what “race” they are. And I’m not certain if that inappropriateness is because I’m white or if its because racial identity is a self-determined quality.

    I’m really not trying to challenge your statements; I just want to learn what other people think.

    Posted 20 Mar 2009 at 9:25 pm ¶

25. Lxy wrote:

    “For East Asian Americans, we are formed as a race due to common phenotypical attributes and the experience of dealing with American Orientalism, among other things.”

    Specifically, do you think that this classification applies to other racial groups? And is it specific to East Asian ethnicities living in the US?

    If you mean Orientalism, it impacts people of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and SE Asian American descent–though in different ways. I should have probably included SE Asian and East Asian Americans together, as the racial formation of these groups is similar.

    The racialization of Middle Eastern and South Asian Americans is related to that of East/SE Asian Americans but also distinct, given differences in culture, history, and the social effects of physical phenotype distinctions.

    Other racial groups like African Americans have their own history and experience of racial formation.

    Similarly, a common thread in Racialicious posts is the idea of “passing”, where an individual does not conform to the typical appearance of their ethnic/racial origins. Do you have any comment on this self-determination aspect of racial identity? I mean, do we have a right to tell someone that they can’t claim an aspect of their heritage because they don’t look the part? If a Fillipina feels that she is not the same race as a Chinese person, where do I get off correcting her?

    Race and ethnicity are often confused as concepts. They are related, overlap, but they are not identical.

    I think the Filipina woman above who stated this was mistaking the term “race” with “ethnicity.”

    As it is used today, the idea of ethnicity denotes the customs, language, food, or other socio-cultural traditions that bind a group together. The concept of race usually denotes how a group is conceived as distinct predominantly based upon phenotype–though this is not absolute.

    Moroever, ethnicity can be racialized, and race can impact the process of ethnic formation.

    And ethnic groups can be comprised of people of different races, as in Latin America–though often in a hierarchical manner with Whites at the top, mestizo/a people below them, with Blacks and Indiginous at the bottom of the social ladder.

    Regarding “passing,” multiracial people often deal with how they are accepted (or not accepted) by a given group. A multiracial individual who “passes” may claim some other aspect of their (ethnic) heritage, but they will also have a different experience of racialization than someone who does not pass.

    Posted 22 Mar 2009 at 4:55 am ¶

26. Restructure! wrote:

    I suggested that a Chinese American and Korean American pairing may not be intraracial, because race is a social construct, and people from China and Korea appear to think that Chinese and Koreans are different races. To think of a Chinese American and Korean American pairing as intraracial is to accept US-centered racial categories.

    One of the ways why interracial pairings are interesting is to see whether people marry outside their race. Usually, family pressures have some influence, so the more relevant racial concepts here are the racial concepts of the families and the person, not the racial concepts of White Americans who think East and Southeast Asians all look the same.

    Posted 22 Mar 2009 at 11:57 am ¶

27. theboxman wrote:

    @Restructure

    “and people from China and Korea appear to think that Chinese and Koreans are different races.”

    I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. If I’m not mistaken, the term most often used translates most closely to “international” and not “interracial.”

    Posted 22 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm ¶

28. peters wrote:

    i agree with h’s comments – the article (not to mention angry asian man’s comments) are pretty blatantly shallow. it inadvertently assumes that all “asians” in the u.s. are the same–meanwhile disregarding some significant difference across gender lines. case in point, it identified iranians, indians, and chinese (women) specifically for supposedly out-marrying more. however, if “lu’s” essentialist anti-korean male rant is any indication… not all asian ethnic groups are the same. case in point, most east asian/asian am females continue to “marry up” with white men – whereas mostly south/south asian women (and arguably “west asians,” as well) tend to marry within their ethnic groups… not to mention, chinese women marrying korean men is certainly quite common – as are korean women with chinese men (although not mentioned in the article).

    ultimately, while the stats the article is referring to may indeed be true – “outmarriage rates” are lowering – it’s too damn vague to be of any real merit to the on-going discussion of interracial coupling.

    one thing is for certain, however. in a post-obama age – race… especially in dating – STILL matters.

    Posted 25 Mar 2009 at 11:25 am ¶

29. peters wrote:

    CORRECTION (oops case in point, it identified iranians, indians, and chinese (women) specifically for supposedly out-marrying LESS.

    Posted 25 Mar 2009 at 11:26 am ¶

30. Lxy wrote:

    “I suggested that a Chinese American and Korean American pairing may not be intraracial, because race is a social construct, and people from China and Korea appear to think that Chinese and Koreans are different races. To think of a Chinese American and Korean American pairing as intraracial is to accept US-centered racial categories.”,

    The “US-centered racial categories” would apply to Chinese Americans and Korean Americans, as they are … Americans–not Asian nationals.

    Moveover, as I mentioned earlier, the very idea of “Asian American” itself was conceived by Asian American activists in the 1960s/1970s as a way to bring together different Asian ethnic groups to form a racial political coalition.

    The Asian American category was born of *political solidarity*–not the uncritical acceptance of “racial concepts of White Americans who think East and Southeast Asians all look the same.”

    It is this radical political dimension of Asian Americanness that has been forgotten by many people today, who mistakenly believe it is only a generic identity category of some sort.

    It was not.

    As for race being a social construct, don’t get me started. This idea–to be blunt–has long ago been reduced to a meaningless mantra and applied in politically problematic ways.

    Implicit in certain applications of social constructvist thought is the idea that because some identity or phenomena is “socially constructed,” it thus is not real. It’s a fiction, a myth. Merely a matter of individual whim and choice.

    The question could be asked, however: what form of identity ISN’T socially constructed?

    National identity (as an American or Canadian); religious identity (as a Christian or Muslim); and even supposed “biological” identity like gender are all socially constructed–as Judith Butler has suggested in her work Gender Trouble.

    http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Trouble-Feminism-Subversion-Identity/dp/0415924995

    As such, would one suggest that national identity, religious identity, or even gender identity are not “real”–given that they too are socially constructed? Of course not.

    Posted 27 Mar 2009 at 8:15 am ¶

31. Jess wrote:

    My identity and sense of unity with other Asians is based on the type of harassment that I have experienced.

    Even thought I’m Chinese, I was called other racist names that pertain to other Asian ethnicities.

    It’s like the Vincent Chin incident. He was Chinese but killed because they thought he was Japanese.

    Posted 29 Mar 2009 at 7:47 pm ¶

32. eli wrote:

    angry asian’s comments veer dangerously close to neo-liberal “post-racial” musings…

    it’s problematic that the article suggests that the trend is consistent within all asian/asian american groups. it’s not.

    look at east-asians: predominantly chinese, japanese, and especially korean and the trends are arguably the same – if not increasing–again, with regard to the women. and usually with white men. karen pyke, kumiko nemoto, and karen kelsky address these trends to some extent.

    east asian men are the ones–predominantly–who are still “intermarrying” with south/south asian women.

    it’s mostly south/south asian women (i know that the article mentioned a chinese woman “preferring” to marry a korean man, but it’s statistically insignificant… not to mention a whole other thread–see “east asian women hierarchical notions of east asian men”) no longer marrying as much “out.”

    but there are clear gender and ethnic differences within asian americans that should be addressed.

    the article, as it is, is pretty superficial anyways. i don’t buy it.

    Posted 02 Apr 2009 at 7:11 am ¶

33. Snake Oil Baron wrote:

    If the number of first generation immigrants is rising compared to second and third generation immigrants it would explain the decline since interracial marriage increases over generations.

    Would an Asian who marries a person of mixed Asian and European parantage be counted as interracial?

    A “mere” 20% rate of interracial marriage means that when 100 Asians (for instance) marry, 20 marriages are mixed and 40 are not (IOW – a non-interracial marriage “uses up” two of a given race). Any interracial marriage rate over 33% yields more mixed marriages than non mixed.

    Posted 12 Apr 2009 at 5:41 pm ¶

34. Snake Oil Baron wrote:

    Actually the 100 marriages scenario is only if the entire population is 100. It works as an analogy but not as a random sample.

    And the middle paragragh could have used a proof read. Sorry.

    Posted 12 Apr 2009 at 6:00 pm ¶

35. t.hardy wrote:

    asia is a large area and encompases a great many places, and nations. so all nations within asia are considered asian.

    Posted 20 May 2009 at 12:27 pm ¶

36. Mr. Kedi wrote:

    t. hardy:
    How about Iranians, Afghani, Kazak or Yakutians? Will they be considered as Asians in North America?

    Posted 28 May 2009 at 9:22 am ¶

37. Marks wrote:

    The explanation is pretty logical.
    I also think it’s interesting to see how there’s more Asian gay couples. A decade ago it was almost unimaginable.

    Posted 15 Sep 2009 at 12:47 am ¶