What is the Cost of Racism?
Excerpted by Latoya Peterson
Over at Resist Racism, there are two excellent posts up discussing the damage racism does to white people.
The first talks about a loss of empathy:
I often think that one way racism does serious damage to white people is by stripping them of their empathy. Privilege has long taught them that white is right. White people are given constant, regular reinforcement that their opinions are superior. They receive validation for their viewpoints. And they typically live in environments in which they do not have to pay any attention to people of color.
Subsequently, when people of color talk about racism, white people are quick to issue denials. Not only do they deny that the opinions or feelings of other people are valid, but they deny even the right to have those opinions. Look at some of the comments people made after Miley Cyrus’ racist “slant-eye” gesture. Remember the one about the rabbits?
What about kids who hold up their fingers and do bunny ears in photos? Should rabbits start holding town meetings to cry racism??
Translation: Asian Americans complaining about racism is as ridiculous as if rabbits began to talk. In other words, Asian Americans are not fully equal. They are being equated with rabbits. And who would imagine that rabbits might dare to bring up racism?
The second discusses critical thinking skills:
Another way that racism harms white people is by denying them the ability to develop their critical thinking. This is due in part to the constant, regular reinforcement that white is right. White people are raised in an environment in which they are regularly assured of their superiority. Their experts are white, like them. And they often live in segregation, thus denying them the opportunity to be exposed to other viewpoints.
What happens in a culture of white supremacy? White people assume that they are the experts. Even in the absence of any history, education or knowledge.
The most blatant example of this is when a white person (typically a white man) is pontificating about a subject and is challenged when a person of color expresses an opinion. The white person will assume that the person of color knows nothing about the subject and will strive to “correct” him or her. I’ve had this happen when a white person who was not in my field was speaking with authority about something in my field. They never assume that you might actually be knowledgeable on the subject, nor do they assume that you might have professional credentials. (I’d also note that this is a very common experience on the part of people of color. And I recently heard a anecdote about this happening to a writer of color with a white man who was discussing her book. Only he didn’t know she had written it.)
It does not cross their minds. This is racism.
Go check them both out. Just make sure you read “We’ve heard it before” and “Racism 101” before commenting.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
BellaNoire wrote:
This rings TOO true. I’m a black female graduate student. On two separate occasions during the past week, I’ve had classmates (one white, one South Asian) completely disregard me during group discussions, even though my assertions were correct. It continues to astound me that people question my intelligence even though we were all admitted to the same program and all have similar credentials. Are there any other grad students out there facing similar frustration? Some days I just want to scream. No matter your level of education, many folks assume that b/c you’re black, you can’t possibly know what the hell you’re talking about… unless it’s specific to black folks, and then you’re the ambassador for the race.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 2:06 pm ¶
Jamerican Muslimah wrote:
AMEN!!!
That’s all I can say…
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 2:25 pm ¶
ty wrote:
BellaNoire, Im so sorry that the South Asian disregarded you during group discussions. As a south asian male i am not blind to the fact that some South Asian people believe that they dont experience racism or that it isnt directed at them. But most dont, I belive that more and more of the younger South Asian generation born in America gets a good view of the way America views them and therefore empathizes more with other minorities. There are alot more of us that feel this way then there those of us that think like Bobby Jindal.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 2:31 pm ¶
Jess wrote:
Maybe another cost of racism is that it can become self-reinforcing.
For instance, racism leads to all kinds of bad essentializing assumptions on the part of whites (or I guess, whatever privileged group, but so often racism as we discuss it here is focused on the US).
That in turn leads even those who want to fight racism to respond with some essentializing assumptions of their own, which comes from sheer frustration.
One example, whenever I hear “white people will never accept (insert here) as equals.” If that’s true, what’s the point? Why not give in to all the violent nasty urges and just have a society that’s nasty, brutish and where life is short, where the strongest get to rule? (This is one of the reasons I never responded well to racial separatism. It seems to me to be giving in and admitting defeat).
Then the privileged people say “see! they self-segregate!” or some nonsensical variant, and we’re off again, even though it’s their fault that the victims of racism think that way because the white folks have given them no reason to think otherwise.
Before anyone flames me, I am NOT saying it’s the victims’ fault. I am saying that a perfectly natural response to the loss of empathy and bad treatment is to defend oneself, and what I’m trying to describe is one of the more insidious effects of having that mind-set forced on you.
Thus racism becomes self-reinforcing, and why its important to break those feedback loops of despair.
Another cost is economic — you can’t hope to have people who will do things that a society needs (like teaching, being a fireman, or whatever) when you cut away a chunk of the potential pool of people to fill those jobs/functions. Just like when women were excluded form many areas — there’s a whole bunch of talent there that we can’t afford to throw away.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 3:18 pm ¶
ceecee wrote:
@BellaNoire, I had the exact same experiences over and over again in undergrad as well. I eventually transferred to a different school and the students there behaved the complete opposite from what I experienced, I was pleasantly surprised.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 3:43 pm ¶
B wrote:
The second paragraph about critical thinking skills strikes me as highly ironic, since a fellow white woman snapped at me that I wasn’t using “critical thinking skills” because I refused to give any credence to her defenses of the recent Obama/monkey cartoon.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 4:18 pm ¶
Lola wrote:
Racism also puts them in danger. They spend all the time being wary of big scary black men or people with turbans that they ignore the obvious threats in their own backyard. The school shootings of the past 10 years are prime example. Emotionally disturbed young males were threatening people, committing petty crimes, expressing violent fantasies, and stockpiling weapons. Yet they were repeatedly ignored because they were white suburban males.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 4:20 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:
@BellaNoire & ceecee, I feel you, I had some similar experiences in college and witnessed them. I recall one class that was about European Politics and one black female student often made many salient relavent points throughout the semester on the Maastricht treaty that was being debated in the EU at the time, and some butthead (white male) was always muttering too himself but loud enough for us to hear, “shut up” everytime she talked! He had NOTHING of substance to add to the class but didn’t want to hear a black woman who did. Unfortunately, the teacher said nothing, the other girl ignored him and I, being young, didn’t say anything though it annoyed me. Grown Lisa J would have given him what-for and lived up to his angry black woman sterotypes.
It is also funny b/c I had one class where this white girl, blonde-haired, blue eyed conventionally what would be called pretty but I thought she was ok- if she had the same looks but brown hair or dark skin no one would look at her twice, but I heard about how she was so beautiful and she complained she didn’t like a certain bar b/c guys were always hitting on her. Anyway she was always going on and on about men silenceing women’s voice blah,blah, blah (not that I didn’t agree but it was her mantra, every single class) then she had the NERVE to silence me during a discussion we had when the professor was out of the room (we were having a class only discussion about the class to give her feedback that would be anonymous per the prof’s instruction, so that we wouldn’t be intimidated, etc) so I was in mid-sentence and she cut me off and said, “oh we don’t have anymore time to talk” but there were five minutes left in the class . I think what bothered her was that the teacher often called on me, even when I didn’t have my hand up b/c I had a lot to contribute b/c I loved the class. THis was not good enough for this girl who cared about women being stiffled and silenced, but not blacks. Killed me. I never spoke to her again, even though she tried to talk to me a few times afterwards. Hypocrite. I also got a letter from some university women’s group shortly after that talking about men silencing women and trying to get me to join. I thought about the white women who tried to silence me (this girl wasn’t the only one) and I crumpled it up and threw it away.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I do have a little bit of a hard time with this one, overall. I can see it more with how men suffer from patriarchy, ie. when they don’t fill the stereotypical role of masculinity or want to step out of its confines, but not as much with racism. If you are less empathetic or you have an inflated sense of superiority, and society backs you up on it, doesn’t see or care about the lack of empathy, and fosters and encourages it, along with the superiority, how does that really hurt you in how you live your life and navigate the world? I mean unless we turn the society upside down or these people go somewhere where they have no power and get the same treatment themselves, and have to deal with this for some decent amount of time, I don’t see how it “hurts” them so much. Affects them, yes, but hurts, not so much. Now in the case of big time white supremisists I can get it b/c living with that much anger and hate etc , has to be hard and it probably indicates some crisis of the soul, self-hatred, lack of happiness and/or lack of self-esteem to be to that extreme. Also, in this day and age, being supremely racist, casts you out of the mainstream in many ways and limits some of your opportunities if you don’t keep it to yourself and are too blatant with it.
Ok, enough, I’ll be quiet now.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 4:24 pm ¶
Sarah wrote:
I am white and am aware that I do have internalized racism. That prejudice is not something I nurture or defend, and it is unsettling and shocking when I recognize it in myself.
Due to the fact that in the US today whiteness is still often seen as the default category, I am rarely forced into the position of examining my own behavior. I know this is the essence of white privilege and is, in some ways, a luxury; however, I also run the risk of operating under a pretty delusional and isolated worldview.
Racism can damage white people by sheltering them from certain types of knowledge (both in terms of the world and themselves), and inhibiting their learning and growth as individuals. Basically, although many racists seek to infantilize People of Color, racism really infantilizes and limits the racists themselves.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 4:34 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:
@ Sarah, sounds like you are on a good path though. Cheers for you.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 5:13 pm ¶
Mahsino wrote:
@BellaNoire,
I have found that sometimes we people of color aren’t even deemed worthy enough to talk on the subject of race. Exhibit A, I had a fellow (white) design student try and argue with me that ethnicity and race were the same thing. All the while trying to tell me that racism doesn’t exist.
We’re having a “stunna shades” party tomorrow- it’s an all-white class, they look at me like I’m crazy whenever I open my mouth to speak about white privilege and cultural appropriation.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 5:16 pm ¶
AsadaDoesNOTcare wrote:
People take feel good messages and apply it where it hurts. they take IT WHERE THEY NEED IT . See what they do with the information.
Be formless…..GENDERLESS, faceless, raceless…..
Demand the truth, and know how to ask for it.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 5:33 pm ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:
Good stuff. This is the type of material we need for the “rebuttals to apologists for racism” wiki.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 5:34 pm ¶
gail wrote:
@ Sarah: “Racism can damage white people by sheltering them from certain types of knowledge (both in terms of the world and themselves), and inhibiting their learning and growth as individuals. Basically, although many racists seek to infantilize People of Color, racism really infantilizes and limits the racists themselves.”
Yes. And this is one of the strongest arguments, from my perspective as a white woman, for resisting racism, however uncomfortable it feels or how “easy” going along may seem. Most white people have no idea how much they are giving up in order to remain racist: self-knoweldge, self-acceptance, a sense of safety in addition to all the public good that is lost to racist practices and institutions. Racism keeps white people fearful, judging, and ultimately alienated from their own identities.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 5:41 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:
When this happens with an acquaintance, and they stubbornly insist on positioning themselves as the “teacher”, I just think, “forget it, why did I try to help you in the first place?” and let them wallow in their ignorance.
Having an education does not protect people of colour from racism.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:05 pm ¶
Casual Observer wrote:
Good thread
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:09 pm ¶
Mahsino wrote:
@Restructure!
Exactly. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles. I learned that the hard way.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:21 pm ¶
MeowKun wrote:
@ Sarah and gail: althought im a POC myself (Chinese and a bit of distance Turkish blood); I also see how racism cost damage on white people after spending eight years in Canada (in the prairies provinces):
a. all white people are lumped in the same categories while a high poportion “white” Canadians i know are actually “invisible minorities”, like ukrainians, dutch, mennonites, polish etc.
b. these invisible minorities are also being assimilated (at least being forced to) before the multicultural-regime pops up; but thanks to the fact that now people just sees them as white, people haven’t given enough attention to them. their heritage is also have dissappeared somehow, but because they are not visible like POC does, if they face discrimination (or racism for that matter), their voice is less heard.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:26 pm ¶
Monie wrote:
It’s gotten to the point where I don’t even respond to questions from White people anymore.
Several months ago I was walking down the street and a White man and women stopped in their car to ask me how to get to a particular street. As I was explaining, a White guy who was standing near by interrupted me and told them the exact opposite of what I was saying.
They listened to him and made a u-turn heading in the wrong direction.
I walked on and some minutes later the same darn car pulled up to me AGAIN and asked me to finish telling them how to get where they wanted to go since they realized the White guy didn’t know what the heck he was talking about.
I just walked off.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:32 pm ¶
timarasa wrote:
@BellaNoire, ceecee, & others: totally have the same experiences in my biology doctorate program all the time. out of all faculty doing research, tenured & non-tenured, there is 1 black principal investigator. in my entering class, there were only 2 of us black students. one instance that particularly got under my skin was a seminar course i took with other grad students where we had to present our ongoing research and anonymously critique the content & execution of the presentation. out of the class there were only 2 poc: me and another asian student. no one else in the class was doing extensive research in my field. i had to slightly ‘dumb’ down the presentation intro, but did not sacrifice content nor discussion of the rationale of my experiments and results. a majority of the critiques were positive (e.g. “wow! you made the subject matter so comprehensible and i learned so much”), but there were one too many that questioned the veracity & rigor of my knowledge base, not even my research (e.g. “i don’t think you even know what a B cell is”. no other explanation as to why they thought my background was lacking). and b/c the critiques were anonymous these people felt they could say even more blatantly ridiculous things on paper i knew they wouldn’t have the courage to say to my face (or at least with more subtle finesse).
and it never stops–only gets worse the higher up you go. the one black faculty member i mentioned earlier, has much more hair-curling stories about going through the tenure process and grant applications.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:35 pm ¶
Maria_Elena wrote:
@ Lisa J: Your examples basically shot me back in time to my own college experience. It was always difficult to act in the moment, but I’ve found now that the more I open my mouth to say anything, it gets easier every single time. I’m not a smartmouth-badass yet, but I’m on my way. (Not that you have to be a smartmouthed badass to make things right, or that that helps your cause. I’m just a shy kind of girl.)
In response to the last part of your comment, specifically:
“If you are less empathetic or you have an inflated sense of superiority, and society backs you up on it, doesn’t see or care about the lack of empathy, and fosters and encourages it, along with the superiority, how does that really hurt you in how you live your life and navigate the world?”
I see what you are saying, and I agree. I’m just going to use this as a jumping point to give my thoughts.
I do think that when white people, (on the occasion that their insular bubble gets popped) are confronted with “other” and are reminded they are not the only kind of people around, they experience a great deal of agita. I suppose that’s neither here nor there and I don’t say it in their defense, but who wants to live like that? How can that be pleasant? I also think those feelings, through lack of critical thinking, get morphed into something else. I think a lot of people spend their lives being agitated, and angry, and never really know why. I believe that white-American sectarian culture has the ability to dumb you down. You choose people who are like you because you aren’t comfortable with anything else. You’re never encouraged to grow or appreciate or understand non-white culture, (unless it’s to appropriate it.) I’m not trying to play a sympathy game, just trying to share a thought.
I specifically remember one time in college when my girlfriends went clubbing (2 white, 1 Asian and 1 Latina:me) and we happened on a club playing reggaeton and hip-hop. (I went to a overwhelmingly white college in the middle of nowhere and we’d made our way to the nearest city.) My two white friends begged off after a song or two, and I will always know that it was not just that they didn’t love the music, but more that they were made uncomfortable by the non-white presence in that club. I’ll never have hard evidence to back that up, but I’ll never forget that my other friend leaned over and whispered as much at that exact moment. I have the ability to listen to “Blister in the Sun” every weekend, but those girls didn’t have the ability not to.
So basically, I think you’re right in that they aren’t “hurt” by white racism in the way that minorities are. But I also don’t believe that they’ve exactly made their own lives any nicer.
I think racism does limit white people in the ways that were pointed out. Incidentally, one of the things I enjoy most in this life is talking about race, and exploring why things are the way they are. I enjoy weeding out what makes me angry, or uncomfortable, and why. I know that commenters and writers like Latoya make me smarter and I revel in that (and am also quite thankful.)
Anyway, sorry for my novel. The end.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 6:54 pm ¶
BellaNoire wrote:
This is a great dialogue, but my question is: what can we do to counter this ignorance? For many years, I felt a responsibility to “enlighten” folks–to be a walking contradiction to negative stereotypes. The older I get, the less inclined I am to do so. It’s a dilemma b/c on the one hand, I don’t feel it’s my “job” to educate folks. On the other hand, who will if I don’t? Is it a cop out to feel like people just need to figure this ish out for their damn selves and if they don’t, that’s their problem? But, wait… that’s the point of this discussion, isn’t it? How “their” problem becomes a problem for all of us?
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 7:57 pm ¶
Ejunco wrote:
great post made sense to me
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 8:03 pm ¶
Elton wrote:
Here is an exchange I had with an online acquaintance:
him: Why are you so preoccupied with race?
me: because i’m not white
him: that’s healthy.
me: don’t have a choice.
why aren’t white people preoccupied with race? i mean, they invented it and benefit from it. they benefit from it so much that they don’t have to be preoccupied with it.
him: You have lost your mind.
me: if you want to provoke me, you’ll have to do better than that.
Even though I try to act tough, this sort of thing never fails to put some emotional turmoil in the back of my mind for days while the other person goes on their merry way. Such is the one-sidedness of fighting racism as a person of color. You can be hit, but you can’t truly hit back.
Why should white people care about racism if it doesn’t hurt them? I’m still struggling to answer that question for myself. In a sense, I’m glad some people aren’t afraid to openly oppose the anti-racism movement, so we know where they stand and where we stand, but I feel like this sort of “why are you so worked up about racism” attitude is the very reason I’m so worked up about racism and I don’t know what to do other than tell people the truths I’ve figured out. But it’s not like it’s my responsibility to change their minds or like anything I attempt to accomplish is going to result in anything but setting them further in their point of view. My problem is that the harder I work and worry, the worse it is, as my acquaintance perhaps rightfully points out, for my mental health, and there’s nothing I can do or say back to him that could ever knock him back as hard as he’s knocked me because the playing field isn’t level in the first place, which is the point of racism.
I’m not entirely convinced that racism really does hurt whites–the creators, perpetuators, and beneficiaries of racism–in any sense other than it’s simply bad to close one’s mind. Consequently, I’m not sure how we can convince them they have a personal stake in the matter. Why would they want to stop something they ultimately benefit from? (No offense to the white anti-racists out there–both of you.)
I don’t see any other choice for myself but to continue the fight against racism, but as a young person, it depresses me to think that what I have ahead of me is a life of heartbreak, suffering, and frustration, while those I’m fighting against–on whose behalf I’m ultimately fighting for, since anti-racism must benefit whites as well–are invincible to the pain of racism and can only reap the rewards of our battle while feeling none of the wounds.
Whites can only be helped. They can’t be hurt.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 8:04 pm ¶
Slow L. Roll wrote:
In a lot of ways, racism forces detachment from reality.
Like when a white person says, “Racism doesn’t exist anymore,” they are actually denying themselves any connection to reality. Because if they cannot see such a basic, ground level fact about the society they operate in, there tether is really loose.
Unfortunately you don’t seem to require being tethered to reality to succeed in the white patriarchial society. In fact it seems to me that its really quite the opposite.
And just as an ironic counterpoint of life in response to Lisa J, I have to agree as a white person that I’m not sure racism “hurts” the perpetrators. Except perhaps by circuitous proxy, where connections are refused on racial grounds that might have proven to be beneficial or there is a reduced work pool. But these things wouldn’t be recognized by the racist anyway, so they do not count. While the posts present valid points about the brain damage racism induces (in fact they may present a unique angle for attempting to open a bigot’s mind), I think that the damage their racism causes to society in general, and to PoC specifically, far outweighs the “damage” to the individual racist themselves. It is incredibly asymmetric.
No, racism doesn’t really “hurt” whites until they lose their blinders and begin the process of becoming antiracist. That’s when it hurts, when you actually begin to feel the racism surrounding you and sometimes even coming from you and it disgusts you because it is not invisible anymore but it used to be and you couldn’t see it, you used to perpetuate it without second thought by virtue of your ignorance. Maybe you didn’t have a choice, you were programmed, but it is small comfort. Like a PCP fiend that was enjoying some lovely visuals only to come to and see blood everywhere. Horrifying. And then realizing it is nothing compared to the experiences of those at whom the maddeningly pervasive racism is directed…
Just another one of god’s loving ironies, I guess.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 8:15 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:
That’s a sad/funny story. You were doing good just to walk away. I can’t believe they had the nerve to come crawling back.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 8:26 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:
That last one was directed @ Monie.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 8:26 pm ¶
Manju wrote:
whites lacking empathy or critical thinking skills due to an invisible (to them) superstructure of white racism and privilege?
those anecdotes don’t ring true to me. So much so that I’d say one of us is divorced from reality. Either I’ve been brainwashed by the system, like frantz fanon described, or your all indoctrinated into a self-contained ideology of victimization, like the horribly wrong Marxists.
or its somewhere in between. there’s racism that i don’t notice because its so normal while your universalizing the personal. i did think Obama caught a lot of this nuance in his big race speech, which was briliant (by policial standards) if that helps.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 10:39 pm ¶
elle wrote:
@Elton, I couldn’t agree with you more Elton. The more I think about racism, the angrier I get, and it really hurts my relationships. Back in my first year of college last year and much of this year, during the primary and general election, I became so depressed,stressed, and bitter I didn’t talk to anybody, I was so obsessed with the election,the racist attacks of John MCain and Sarah Paylend, the apathy of people on campus,and have been mean to everybody in general. I began to hate this nation and the world. Now with Pres. Barack Obama, I have some of my hope in humanity restroyed, and am trying to build new friendships with people and be nicer to people in general.
Also, about white people assuming I’m stupid because your Black, I hear you. I’m a big guy, 6′3,260 lbs, played football in highschool, and many people are shocked to learn that I actually went to college, not on a athletic scholarship, but on my own brains,not brawn. And when I say I’m in college, people assume its a community college, whether than the large Massachussetts university I’m in know,majoring in political science. I mean, I actually had one white man say to my face “I look like a criminal”, I’ve had cops look at me, even though I’m the son of a cop,and assume I carry or use drugs. If white people could walk in my shoes just one day,please God,one day…
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 11:06 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:
@Elton:
I’ve given up on trying to convince random white people that racism still exists. I’ve narrowed it down to writing about racism, etc. from a ‘geek’ perspective, since I can see why the mainstream soc sci presentations are a turn off (or incomprehensible) to science/math/computer geeks.
I also think that online idiot places like Digg are bad for one’s mental health and not worth it. Even if you convince one white person, the Internet will spawn new ones, forever, who have the same arguments over and over again.
Right now I’m more interested in having discussions with other PoC who share the same experiences, who share the pain. I used to be very bothered by people being wrong both offline and online, but I don’t care about what a large part of the population thinks anymore. I care about what they think as an aggregate and about the systemic effects, but not as individuals.
I’m not entirely convinced that racism “hurts” whites either, since they are benefitting from it. It “inconveniences” them, maybe. On the other hand, our intellectual progress as humans is being seriously impeded by racism, sexism, etc. Of course, it still ends up hurting PoC more than whites, since anything that hurts humans hurts PoC as well, and PoC have to deal with the other effects of racism that whites don’t have deal with.
I also find it problematic that racism has to be framed as something that hurts white people before it is considered a legitimate problem that must be solved. It’s as if PoC don’t fully count as humans, as if our pain doesn’t really matter.
Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 11:26 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
In my experience as a white woman, merely being female tends to make your knowledge and opinions less heard, less valid, and less credited as one’s own work (rather than repetition of a man’s opinion). And, believe me, this applies across all racial groups and ethnic origins (not for *all* people or *all* men within each group, obviously).
Yes, POC are likely to be considered less knowledgeable, less original, less worthy of attention as compared with whites. And it’s very often additive with regards to gender, generally (but not always) in a predictable way leaving WOC at the bottom of the “considered expert” scale, as narrated here by personal experience of the majority of writers in this thread.
Timarasa (#20), you really have my sympathies, the biomedical research culture (at least in academia) is not exactly conscious of or welcoming of blacks or Hispanics, and both whites and API people can be offenders, in my personal observation.
Restructure (#30): Yes, it’s pathetic that racism needs to be framed as “hurts white people too”. Pragmatically, there is still a place for arguments to some aspect of self-interest. If something isn’t a personal problem, people tend to ignore it, and to consider it outside their responsibility. I make arguments to white well-off conservative peers in this manner: wouldn’t you rather have a pool of literate and numerate job applicants that are able to adapt quickly and read instructions, than a pool of poorly educated job applicants that need significant on the job training before they become productive? Normally these conservative peers consider K-12 public school quality outside their residential area not an issue. Their own K-12 schools are good and their property values are high (a relative term nowadays). Appealing to their business needs gets their attention. It would be nice if they considered quality universal education a matter of national pride or ethical justice, but that’s not the conservative mindset. So you argue for the right thing using an argument designed for the listener’s baser rather than better nature.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 12:33 am ¶
Elton wrote:
elle,
What university do you go to? I myself went to college in MA and felt a lot of liberal, politically correct, covert racism.
Anyway, you gotta find an outlet. I use writing and music (two things Asians are stereotyped as not being interested in except in a very narrow sense). We all have to realize that when we get angry but don’t do anything constructive with that anger, the terrorists^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hracists win.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 2:37 am ¶
Elanor Brachwasser wrote:
It’s absolutely problematic that racism might need to be framed as something that hurts white people before being considered a serious problem, but nevertheless if framing it that way helps in the fight against it, maybe it’s worth it? Personally I don’t believe racism particularly hurts white people – it certainly narrows our experience of the the world to the extent that we’re often delusional, but we can spend spend our entire lives in that delusion without knowingly suffering from it. As Slow L. Roll said, it’s when a white person realizes their ignorance that racism starts to hurt, and even then hardly to the extent that it hurts PoC.
I believe strongly that every human being has a responsibility to advocate justice for others if they expect to receive equality themselves. Prejudice is so pervasive, the victimized need help, or at least an open ear, from other groups to get their voices heard. How can I ever expect to be treated equally as a lesbian, a person with a disability, a female, or a gender nonconformist if I don’t do my very hardest to battle my own internalized racism and classism? I also can’t afford to jeopardize my own relationships with the beloved PoC in my life through my own ignorance.
I agree that racism causes a lack of empathy and critical thinking in white people, but empathy can also teach them to question their ignorance. The problem is, what person of color wants to be the one to educate people who clearly don’t respect her? Of course, I can’t speak for any racial minority, but as a lesbian I can partially understand the frustration involved.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 3:17 am ¶
Daniel wrote:
The first part about loss of empathy is very well-written and straight forward. There’s not much to add. I whole heartily resonate with the statement ” to deny others their humanity is denying your own humanity”.
This attitude goes both ways. Sometimes, if you witness and experience enough bigotry, one can become very defensive and in turn, belittle others. I haven’t experienced racism to actual violence (just threats) but even those actions will mess up the mind.
I have mixed reactions to the critical thinking part. I think people (white, privilage class, elite, majority, etc.) do develop and used the critical thinking skills, but stop halfway and/or not touch the uncomfortable parts. The judgemental mentality eventually reflects on itself. At that point, people may start hating themselves and find little reason to be happy.
If people actually think hard enough, there’s a lot to be ashame of and disturbed aside from racism regarding their own societies. (In this case, the US in general). Many philosophers and teachers mentioned how and why a lot of people don’t study history or different societies/cultures. Many people end up learning too much about themselves, which can make themselves uncomfortable.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 4:46 am ¶
Lxy wrote:
From Angry Asian Man: Hate groups are on the rise:
“It’s a frightening, alarming fact. There is hate in this country. Serious, ugly, targeted hate. So much hate, in fact, that the hate takes the form of groups. Rapidly growing groups who are finding every excuse to direct their anger at something, anything. And they’re growing: Growing hate groups blame Obama, economy.
According to The Year in Hate, the Southern Poverty Law Center’s annual report on hate groups, the number of hate groups has grown by 54 percent since 2000. The study identified 926 hate groups — defined as “groups with beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people” — active in 2008. That’s a 4 percent jump, adding 38 more than the year before.
What’s fueling the rise in hate groups? Obama, apparently. The nation’s first African American president, and a busted economy, as well as the issue of Latino immigration, are creating backlash among those who want someone to blame for their troubles. Obama has become sort of a “visual aid” that is helping to respark a sense of purpose among the haters.”
http://www.angryasianman.com/2009/03/hate-groups-on-rise.html
And as the US economy plunges deeper into recession/depression, there is likely going to be an upsurge in racist American nationalism and nativist sentiment.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 5:23 am ¶
island girl wrote:
before i went back to graduate school, i did freelance catering. i am a culinary school grad, “classically” trained (read: european cuisine, mostly french) and an accomplished pastry chef as well. i agreed to cater a five-course, sit down wedding reception for 25 at the home of a friend of a friend. to lower my margin, i asked my husband to help me prep. the even was a success, but as guests entered the kitchen, they all thanked my husband for a lovely meal and completely ignored me. i guess because he is a tall white guy, he appeared more chef-like to them; i imagine that they thought i was the dishwasher.
thing is, at first, my husband accepted their expressions of gratitude without question. i think that, being a white man, he was simply accustomed to people praising him for a job well done. after the fourth or fifth person thanked him, he finally realized what was going on and directed the guests to thank the person who had planned the menu, figured out the cost and actually cooked the meal.
when we talked about it later, i realized that there wasn’t any malice on his part. he was just being clueless. he would never *consciously* do something to hurt me. it took him a while to see things from my perspective, but when he did, the whole cycle of agita (as one poster put it) began. once we got to the other side of that, he did see how privilege was so invisible to him, even as he benefited from it. he’s learned better since, and continues to learn….that’s one person, very incremental change. but at least i don’t have to swallow this shit at home.
–island girl in a land without sea
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 8:06 am ¶
nonogirl wrote:
One of the most thought provoking posts on any blogs I’ve read in a while. Bravo! As a Asian American female, I wholly agree with Restructure that its interesting that the argument had to be made that racism hurts whites too, before it can be recognized as a legitimate problem. All of the experiences of the other POC above ring true to me. I’ve had a friend of a friend (who happened to be a first generation Indian girl with a valley-girl accent from TX) argue with me over real estate trends in this city. I’ve lived here for over a decade. She’s lived here for about three years. I’m also a licensed real estate broker. Ha. I’ve had professors ignore me in class, blatantly, even though my hand was the only one raised. I’ve had professors not “really” answer my questions, then when someone else cuts in with a comment, the floor goes to that person (usually a non-POC). However, it’s also interesting to note that these days, whenever for example the media is a little bit inclusive (maybe they finally did their market research), the white people are totally up at arms. I had one friend of a friend (a different one, ha – maybe I just happen to know a lot of racists in the second degree) go nuts after she, a WASPY upper-crust female, see a commercial featuring, gasp, two people of color in a row. The rest of the commercial, like a dozen other actors, were all white. She made the comment, loud and clear, for everyone to hear, “apparently, white people aren’t allowed to buy furniture anymore.” This while we were sitting in a living room in a neighborhood that was 80% POC, and in a city that is probably 40% POC. I nearly choked on my artichoke dip – laughing. Stupid people are everywhere.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 8:09 am ¶
Jess wrote:
@Restructure!–
I wouldn’t worry about the way racism is framed as hurting whites in one way– to some extent that’s just a political tactic to help people understand. Sort of like when environmentalists try the “you might save money” angle on people who wouldn’t otherwise respond. When all is said and done you are about maintaining a planet that isn’t hostile to human civilization, and some folks just can’t think long-term. Doesn’t mean it’s not an important method, just that ultimately, it’s one of many.
Look at it another way: Many societies have structures which benefit a few — for a while. But then they fall apart. Because he benefits aren’t sustainable. Corporate capitalism benefits a few people, but those are the same people who will be just as dead when the food runs out because we’ve destroyed enough of our agricultural base that there isn’t enough.
So I don’t think it’s so much that you have to say PoC aren’t human any more than it was saying workers weren’t human when you point out that robber-baron capitalism will eventually kill the beneficiaries of that, too.
On a separate note, something I noticed in this and other discussions. As Americans in articular, we tend to individualize things. That’s an old Calvinist thing, I think — there’s a sense that all the interactions with people are individual, just like the idea that if you worked hard God or whatever would reward you — no reference to any outside influence, no reference to the way structures can affect people.
That’s why I think for white people it can be hard to get the head around some concepts. Like, someone says “Well, I didn’t do anything and I try my best to be decent, why are you attacking me?” This is why I think folks have a tough time with the idea that you can have a racist structure in place even in a society full of non-racist individuals. Take segregation. Even if every southerner was suddenly struck on the Road to Damascus with enlightenment, the legal structure would still exist and be racist (assuming for simplicity’s sake that it was enforced to the letter).
This is why many white people don’t get that histories aren’t equivalent, and why they say well, if X said this would that be racist?” and just reverse the colors. People see racism as playing out at an individual level. Like it’s all about your feelings.
This is also why I always took the position that speaking of a black racist in the US is almost silly. (In other countries the situations are very different). A black man can hate all he wants, but there has never been and will probably never be the equivalent of a Charles Stuart case where white kids are rounded up as suspects on the word of a black guy. As a white(ish) dude, I can make life tough for loads of black people at a stroke, the reverse isn’t possible.
I also can’t get too angry at individual people for certain kinds of racist behavior anymore. I mean, I will try to point stuff out when it happens, but I try a little mental judo to get people to see. I find calling someone a racist never does anything because it is seen as an individual attack and a lot of the time it isn’t their fault — they weren’t trying to be malicious. Nobody asks to be born who they are.
And while I understand that people feel it isn’t their responsibility to educate anyone, that’s the only way change is going to happen. I mean how else? Magic?
The issue (I think) is that the libertarian mind-set has done a lot of damage, I think, by making everything a one-on-one interaction. Maybe that’s one way of attacking it. (?)
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 8:38 am ¶
Baiskeli wrote:
@Restructure!
I used to be very bothered by people being wrong both offline and online, but I don’t care about what a large part of the population thinks anymore.
For you
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
But on a serious note, I understand where you are coming from. I’m a geek and a scifi fan too and mainstream Geek culture sometimes seems to be a combination of arrogant white privilege and extreme liberal ideas. And I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t care to have the same discussions over and over again.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 9:19 am ¶
Baiskeli wrote:
The post on the loss of empathy addressed this but I wanted to add something from a class basis and also personal experience.
Not having empathy can also be a defense mechanism to protect one’s self esteem and view of the world. I grew up middle to upper middle class in a country that had a massive divide between rich and poor. Growing up, everything I was told was that we were doing okay because our parents worked hard (which they did) and never about chance, social capital etc etc. As such, I never really thought much about the poor, I just internalized the meme that they were poor because they didn’t work hard enough. My parents would sometimes drive me to school and we would see a river of humanity doing the 2 hour walk from their slums to the industrial area to work.
When I came to the U.S and was dirt poor and faced a taste (just a taste) of what the poor in my home country go through, then suddenly I understood how people can be poor, how hard it can be to dig out of poverty even when one works like a fiend (as I did) and just how badly society treats those who are poor (the U.S treats the poor badly, and being black adds an extra dimension, but where I come from the poor are treated like dirt).
I just went back home and 2 things have happened. Our family has fallen down the rungs, we are sort of lower-middle class, and I just had a really hard time with the divide between rich and poor (which has continued to increase).
So I guess growing up not having empathy for the poor meant that I did not have to question what was wrong with our society. And it also had the added benefit that I could attribute my accomplishments to hard work rather than the privilege that was mine by an accident of birth.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 9:37 am ¶
Jaya wrote:
As someone currently dating a pretty stereotypical white male, I think this is a little over simplified.
I don’t think he’s internalized any idea that “white is right”. I mean, we’ve been dating for three years. And he’s got friends of all colors and backgrounds, or as many as he can have, being from a tiny rural town. He’s also one of the most empathetic, loving people I have ever met.
I think its more of a personal defense when he argues against the concept of systemic racism. He looks at it as a form of collective guilt, and does not want to be tarred with the same brush as “actual” racists, because of the color of his skin. He does not recognize the concept of white privilege because he has never overtly seen how he benefits from the system.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 10:17 am ¶
Restructure! wrote:
@Baiskeli: Being a geek, I’m naturally an XKCD fan, and the “Duty Calls” pic is on my “About” page of my blog.
I would say that Geek culture favors libertarianism rather than liberalism. I also find that male privilege is relatively more concentrated than the white privilege in geek culture.
There is the joke that “geeks don’t have girlfriends,” as if all geeks are male (and heterosexual) and there is no such thing as a geek who is female (and heterosexual). Ugh, when it comes to geek communities, my feminist side is more prominent than my anti-racist side, because the sexism is worse.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 10:58 am ¶
Baiskeli wrote:
@Restructure!
I would say that Geek culture favors libertarianism rather than liberalism.
Doh! That’s what I meant to say. Haven’t had my morning coffee yet.
There is the joke that “geeks don’t have girlfriends,” as if all geeks are male (and heterosexual) and there is no such thing as a geek who is female (and heterosexual). Ugh, when it comes to geek communities, my feminist side is more prominent than my anti-racist side, because the sexism is worse.
There is definitely a lot of misogyny and male privilege in traditional geek circles, who can forget the whole ‘fondle boob’ (The Open Source Boob) stupidity. I would agree that in Geek circles male privilege triumphs racial privilege, but the doozy is when someone is both both female and black.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 11:20 am ¶
Baiskeli wrote:
@Restructure!
Cool blog!
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 11:24 am ¶
jo wrote:
Sure, in a general what-you-get-out-of-life sense, racism hurts white people, homophobia hurts straight people etc. But depending on where they happen or choose to live and whom they happen or choose to socialize with, many are unlikely to notice. (How do you notice that closemindedness is bad for you if you’re closeminded?). Sexism can hurt men to a much more palpable degree, but concern about this has never been a truly driving force in eradicating it–despite the fact that almost no one lives in a gender-segregated environment. So I wouldn’t bet on “racism hurts white people” as a statement that’s going to change much of anything.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 11:48 am ¶
jo wrote:
That is, of course, from a practical, political angle. From a more spiritual angle, this more or less sums it up for me:
The Prophet Muhammad said: “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed.” The Prophet was asked: “It is right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?” He replied: “By preventing him from oppressing others” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Hadith 624).
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 12:26 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:
@Jaya, can you please be a little specific with what exactly is being oversimplifed. You bring up your boyfriend, but that is one individual and we are discussing a larger societal trend. I think before you make dismissive statements that we are oversimplifying things or that the post is oversimplifying you give a little more explanation of why you think that, rather than what your boyfriend may or may not do or think.
@elle. I can so sympathize with you having had similar things happen to me. I also have a good friend who sounds like he has a similar build to yours (may be a wee shorter) who is also black and fairly dark. He is one of the smartest people I know and in a well-rounded way, he is the type of person I always said I “hated” when I was a kid b/c they were good with math &science & with English/history/humanities -jealous b/c I am only good with the squishy English side. Anyway, he says he aspires to be a Geon, jack of all trades, master of none. He has a good education, was an officer in the Air Force etc. He has told me many times of people treating him like the stupid negro b/c they assume he doesn’t know what he is talking about. He also mentioned that his late mother, who was a pharmacist, went to Yale and had tons of big acheivements, who always had people talk down to her, once tried to have someone who wasn’t remotely in the medical field explain how medicine works on the body to her, etc, etc, etc. He also said that she, and he by learning from her, often go SUPER EDUCATED on people with as many big complicated terms and as much detail as possible to put them in their place. My Mom also told me later, that my 5th grade teacher, who I thought was the so wonderful at the time, assume that my Mom was going to community college when she said she was going back to school and looked stunned when she said she was going to Rutgers for her masters. As the late, great, Marvin Gaye said, “make me wanna holla, way they do my life”.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 1:30 pm ¶
Lxy wrote:
One point that should be emphasized is that White Supremacy and racism go beyond the limited Civil Rights vocabulary of “discrimination” or “segregation” and ultimately are premised upon European American hegemony–cultural, political, social, and economic.
And racism may or may not be “damaging” to White people, but it’s doubtful that they will give up this racial dominance without a major struggle.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm ¶
Elton wrote:
Jaya,
I’m gonna reply to your quotes with quotes from http://resistracism.wordpress.com/racism-101/ for convenience.
“As someone currently dating a pretty stereotypical white male, I think this is a little over simplified.
I don’t think he’s internalized any idea that “white is right”. I mean, we’ve been dating for three years.”
4. People must own their feelings and expressions. Ventriloquy is not helpful in discussions of racism.
“And he’s got friends of all colors and backgrounds, or as many as he can have, being from a tiny rural town. He’s also one of the most empathetic, loving people I have ever met.”
9. A claim to anti-racism cannot be made based on any variation of the “black friend defense” (Mexican boyfriend, Asian wife, children of color, etc.).
“I think its more of a personal defense when he argues against the concept of systemic racism. He looks at it as a form of collective guilt, and does not want to be tarred with the same brush as “actual” racists, because of the color of his skin.”
14. It’s not all about you.
“He does not recognize the concept of white privilege because he has never overtly seen how he benefits from the system.”
1. White privilege exists.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 2:18 pm ¶
Winn wrote:
@Jaya,
One of the most difficult things to grasp about white privilege is that it operates at an invisible and often unconscious level. It is not about direct monetary gain or social status, but more about freedom of mobility, inheritance of social capital, representation as the norm or standard by which other traditions, practices and belief systems are judged, and the ability to dimiss the idea of systemic, structural inequality as “collective guilt” or a culture of victimization (yes, we heard you, Manju). As several others have noted, the insistence on reducing racism to the level of personal interactions allows one to insist, “I’m not burning crosses on anyone’s lawn or calling anyone racial slurs, so this dicussion not only doesn’t apply to me, but is probably illegitimate anyway”. Talk about “universalizing the personal”.
If your boyfriend is actually ever interested in figuring out what is really meant by white privilege or how systemic racism works, there are lots of resources, including Peggy McIntosh: http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html, the works of Tim Wise, especially “White Like Me”, Allan Johnson’s “Privilege, Power, and Difference”, “White Privilege”, an anthology by Paula Rothenberg, and one of the best books on the subject by an old prof of mine, “The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism, and White Privilege”, by Robert Jensen.
You mentioned that you thought this discussion was oversimplified. Actually, the issue of privilege is anything but simple. If it were, all these good-hearted individuals with diverse friendships and no personal racist animus would have dismantled those structures maintaining racism and inequality decades ago. But, as others have mentioned, when you can afford to either deliberately ignore or be oblivious to social structures and forces that both directly and indirectly benefit you and members of your group, even if you didn’t ask for it and don’t consciously recognize it when it happens, then the suggestion that these concepts are simplistic falls flat. It is the very complexity, nuance, and risk embedded in these ideas that keeps the privilege wheel turning. After all, if you accept that you benefit, even unwillingly or unwittingly, from something, then conversely that means someone else is being marginalized, exploited, or excluded. And in order for that to end, you’ll have to give up some of that privilege, some of those benefits. It also throws into chaos many other internalized memes: “My family and I worked hard for what we have, and if other people work hard too, then they can achieve just like we have”, “Why should I have to pay the price for what my ancestors did? I’ve never _____ (insert “owned slaves”, “lynched anybody”, exploited and massacred Native Americans”, “interned the Japanese”, whatever)”, “All this ish happened a long time ago. Can’t we just get over it?”, “If you look hard enough for racism, you’ll find it. People preoccupied with race are the ones who perpetuate it”, “How come Irish (or Italian, German, Greek, etc.) immigrants could come to this country with nothing, work hard, and succeed? They didn’t get affirmative action”, and on and on ad nauseum. As I’m sure the whites who have struggled with this issue and commented here can attest, it’s a whole lot simpler to unquestioningly buy into ideas like those than to actually confront what privilege means, how it operates, how it manifests, and how it can be exposed and ultimately rejected.
I know nothing about your personal relationship and don’t presume that I do. But I am a mid to late 30’s black women who has been in relationships with white men most of my adult life, and have dialogued and collaborated with many other interracial couples. If you (not you personally, the collective you) have any consciousness and sense of identity around race and social justice issues, then a day of reckoning almost always comes in the relationship in which the world views and disparate histories and experiences of the couple clash with each other, no matter how much love, mutual respect, shared interests, years together, or whatever else they might have. That is when the costs of racism become clear, and often, one party ends up paying much more than the other.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 4:15 pm ¶
JC wrote:
I think another way racism hurt white people is that PoC will always in some way be suspicious of them being racists in some manner. This is especially true of white men. It makes it difficult for PoC to befriend whites. Even if the white person is anti-racist, the negative stereotypes such as “enjoy racist humor”, “believe in white supremacy”, and “ignorance of white privilege” will be placed upon him or her, at least initially. I know that right now I have been guilty of assuming these stereotypes against white people, even people I know for years. I don’t believe all white people are guilty of these stereotypes but right now the evidences is out there that they are pretty common. I think they hurt every non-racist white people out there.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 5:05 pm ¶
Kavita wrote:
“No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck.” — Frederick Douglass.
Cosign with Sarah and Gail. As a light-skinned, privileged WOC, I find that the process of recognizing my own privileges and un-learning my own prejudices is as important to my liberation as resisting the oppression directed at me.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 5:15 pm ¶
Sarah wrote:
JC,
Thank you–your comment really spoke to one of my latent fears! As a white person, I am very afraid that PoC will think that I am racist and judge and avoid me as a result.
Kavita,
Thanks for the Douglass quotation. It reminds me of how, in Narrative of the Life, he illustrates the ways in which slavery warps and degrades the whites who perpetuate such an abhorrent system.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 6:46 pm ¶
Reiter wrote:
I think this article hits the issue right over the head. While the issue of systemic racism and the dynamics of covert and overt racism are major issues for POCs, for most whites, it’s merely a minor inconvenience for them, if that. If it doesn’t affect them personally or directly, why should they care, is the feeling I get with most whites, be they hard line conservatives with overtly racist ideaologies or so-called “color-blind” liberals who still partake in covert racism under the guise of being above such “petty” things.
In either case, they’d rather not deal with the whole issue if they can help it. Diverting, avoiding, skirting, ignoring, satirizing (I hate this latest trend in hipster racism), anything and everything EXCEPT addressing the issue. Because it takes white people out of their comfort zone and makes them realize that, yes, the system is rigged against POCs and because whites can and do benefit at the expense of others, whether they realize it or not.
There are no easy answers to it all, but all I know is that pretending that the elephant in the room doesn’t exist won’t make the problem go away.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 7:23 pm ¶
Rchoudh wrote:
Except for diehard white supremacists, most whites may not be aware of the insidious nature of systemic racism because of its essentially psychological nature. Since racism stems from one’s psyche, it is harder to detect and diagnose, much like mental illness.
I also believe that so long as systemic racism succeeds in letting whites live within a bubble of sorts, they will not directly feel any negative impact of racism upon their lives. It’s only when the bubble starts to deflate at times, like when one’s livelihood, pov, culture, society, etc are shaken up and drastically worsened, do white people start to realize how racism has really hurt them in the long run. For example, due to the economic crisis Americans are beginning to realize that America’s competitive economic edge over the rest of the world has long since been eroding due to Americans’ smug indifference towards the competition from newer countries not from Europe and the belief that America’s consumer economy was forever sustainable.
Of course recognition of the problem doesn’t always lead to a solution unfortunately. Humans have a tendency to cause a backlash too, so like someone posted upthread, instead of recognizing racist assumptions and correcting them, people may instead become even more stubborn in their beliefs and values, eg. blaming the competition from Asian nations for Americans losing their jobs during this sluggish economy instead of acknowledging that Americans should learn to better compete with others around the world.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 7:56 pm ¶
Katie wrote:
@Rchoudh – I do not think that systemic means what you think it means.
Systemic racism means embedded in the system, like overly punitive laws against crack cocaine possession, or three strikes laws, not internalized racism.
The way you’re talking about it makes it seem like some sort of PoC-specific mental illness, which it most certainly isn’t. It’s a very real set of social structures that reinforce racism even where no interpersonal racist feeling may exist.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 8:47 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
Katie, I think there might be a partial misunderstanding here. I took Rchoud’s comment about psychology to apply to psychology of whites, specifically, the perpetuation of obliviousness. “Mainstream American” culture, including news, entertainment, existing patterns of racial and economic residential (and educational) segregation, niche marketing, etc. , makes it possible for whites to perceive ourselves (whites) as “the standard” and regard POC as relatively undifferentiated groups at the margins of our consciousness. We often know few POC, and instead get our info from the media, where POC are presented as “problems” and not individuals. So there is a psychological result of “structural racism”: perpetuating the typical white inability to remember that there are POCs, unless the POCs are viewed as “causing a problem”. Out of sight, out of mind. The consensus culture and consensus psychology is self perpetuating – people who don’t “see” POC in the “default” position are not going to be able to identify white-preferential informal and formal societal structures – those structures look “normal”. It is difficult for most well-intentioned whites to unlearn thought patterns and notice: there aren’t any black graduate students or postdocs in my lab. building, and there are 35 grad students and postdocs working in this building.
Posted 05 Mar 2009 at 11:18 pm ¶
Sarah wrote:
I commented earlier about my realizations of my own racism, and I thought I would clarify what I meant.
Tonight in the women’s weight room of my gym, I was looking at these enlarged black and white photographs from the 1940s of women in fitness competitions. The women were wearing vintage bathing suits and had a variety of healthy body types. I was feeling strong and pretty and thinking how nice and positive these images were, and then I glanced smilingly over at the weight room’s only other occupant, an African American woman. Suddenly I realized a) There were no pictures of women of color. b) The beaches where these photos were shot were probably segregated in the ’40s and ’50s. c) The whole idea of the healthy white body gained its power in part from comparisons with bodies that were considered abnormal.
I suddenly felt kind of embarrassed about my unthinking identification with the photos and acceptance of them as somehow universally appealing. It doesn’t sound like a big deal, and maybe it is reading too much into the Gold’s Gym decor, but now I notice stuff like this all the time.
I’ve never been an overt racist. My parents are progressive in and I graduated from Roll of Thunder Hear My Cry to The Color Purple. Nevertheless, I have these little moments where I realize my own complicity in racialized hierarchies. And then I wonder about all the stuff that goes right over my head–what I don’t notice is what really scares me. Sorry to be so confessional. I know this blog is not a forum for white people to work out their issues, but I’ve found this thread really helpful and interesting.
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 1:36 am ¶
D. wrote:
Hi Latoya & other readers,
I read your blog almost daily, but I don’t think I’ve ever commented. I live and work with mostly white people(in an elementary school), who really see themselves and their ways as superior to others. It is so frustrating to me. How do we expect our students to develop critical thinking skill when the educators can’t be critical about what and how they’re teaching. I really, really like the piece and I think everyone should read it!!
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 3:04 am ¶
Rchoudh wrote:
@Katie
I want to clarify by what I meant when I equated racism with mental illness. I was talking about how at its root racism is psychological, much like mental illness is. Because of its essentially psychological nature racism, unlike physical illnesses, is harder to detect and diagnose so that the ones suffering from it (racists both overt and covert) and the ones close to the racist (fellow whites) would find it difficult to believe that they are suffering from its effects. I was in no way referring to POC’s and internalized racism when I was equating racism and mental illness.
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 4:59 am ¶
PatrickInBeijing wrote:
There are clearly negative impacts upon white people from racism. People who are racist deny themselves friends and connections who might be of value to them. They lose the ability to think clearly, because they wear blinders. They walk in fear much as people who believe in ghosts walk in fear. They make bad choices, because the values used in making choices are irrational. They are irrational.
I could go on and on. Just because folks don’t recognize their damage doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
The damage affects all of society (certainly the victims, POC, are affected the most by a large amount). An unjust society is an unjust society. A society based on oppression requires the fear of the oppressors to continue.
Personally, I am not interested in guilt as a motivating factor. I am more interested in justice, because I TOO want to live in a just society and believe it will benefit me. Racism harms me (though not as much as it harms POC) as well as benefits me.
(Certainly racism benefits me, though not by my choice, but the benefits are there, and are not even my to accept or deny, as long as society is racist, they exist.)
The cost to me, is that I can not always be trusted. The cost to me may be friendships that could otherwise exist. The cost to me is that instead of finding friends on the basis of mutual interests and common values, I have to struggle to move out of the skin-color cocoon that surrounds me in order to find real freedom.
Do I think it is helpful to talk about costs? I dunno, in honesty. I certainly believe that when white folks speak up, it matters (if only because it presents an alternative to the mainstream narrative for those white folks searching for one, and may also tamp down the other white folks a bit.)
My own personal preferred metaphor is my desire for justice and fairness in my life, which cannot exist for me, if it is denied to others. How does that communicate? Sometimes well, sometimes not at all.
But, I am cheating, cause I bailed out of the states to live in China. Here I talk about race in terms of US culture (one of my students said to me that I sure talk about it a lot, and have lots of books about POC, I replied that unless one talks about race, one cannot talk about America, some folks get it, and some don’t).
Great discussion as usual folks, I want to thank people for their thoughtful postings and sharing. It really matters a lot to my life (you don’t know how much, but it does).
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 9:39 am ¶
Hid wrote:
I totally agree. Being a philosophy major, and reading much of what Nietzsche wrote about the “herd” morality, the herd or majority turn against anything that is considered different or a threat to their way of life. I think that education as a whole needs to change… starting in the home. People need to be open-minded, embrace change and realize that people are different, embrace that, and reach out to those who are different because they can help us better ourselves. I am a white male, and I know that what has been said is true, but there are some close minded people out there, and it makes me feel sad that I am part of a group that is mostly made up of ignorant close-minded people, who try to sweep this racism under the rug, and pretend that it doesn’t exist so they can feel better about their lives. I think that it should be brought up, and discussed, know matter how much it hurts.
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 12:31 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
Winn, your response was a primer unto itself. Thanks.
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 12:48 pm ¶
Katie wrote:
@Rchoudh – whoa, my bad. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 5:58 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
Thanks, all, for a thoughtful discussion.
Posted 06 Mar 2009 at 7:12 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:
@JC
I just assume that white people are not antiracists until proven otherwise. Non-antiracist people are by default racist in the “everybody is a little bit racist” way that comes from systemic racism. I don’t think that it makes sense to assume that white people are antiracists until they prove that they are non-antiracists, since being non-antiracist is the path of least resistance and requires less effort.
White people who are not antiracist enough usually show their true colours as soon as I meet them, because they ask “Where are you from?” or do something else that others me. I react coldly, and they think that I don’t like them because they’re white.
Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 11:44 am ¶
jvansteppes wrote:
It’s so depressing that people feel the need to argue that racism also has harmful consequences for white people in order for it to be considered worth working against on a universal level.
Jo’s Prophet Muhammad quote sums up for me one of the reasons why as a white person I care about ending racial oppression, aside from the limited parallels I’ve been able to draw with homophobia in my life. It definitely dehumanizes me as a human being to be part of a racist system. But (especially coming from a partially middle class background) the limits placed on my individual intellect, integrity and so on by racism BARELY compare to its consequences for people of color.
Re JC:
Suspicion of anti-racist whites seems pretty natural to me. Yeah, meeting people who are suspicious of me as a white person doesn’t feel good, but it doesn’t unsettle me on the level of people who are suspicious of me as a homo, to give a parallel example of suspicion. Anti-racist whites still owe it to the people of color we encounter to prove ourselves, and I don’t think that’s really a problem. We don’t have the right to expect that everyone will automatically trust us. Building trust takes time. Among other things, it takes the knowledge that we (the white folk) can handle being critiqued without having a hissy fit. I don’t think we ought to take that suspicion personally…
Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm ¶
This is wrong wrote:
I was recently talking to a colleague after work about the massive Spanish speaking population in California – I have voluntarily learned it in order to better do my job – that, and every Mexican in a 100 mile radius looking at my “ethnic” features and assuming I speak it anyway.
I told her how angry I was that certain people were “expected” to speak Spanish in California, ie – you’re not visibly WASP or black, and immediately she said “Oh, you’re talking about ME, right?”
I wasn’t, but her snappy response surprised me. Whites are the first to play the victim when it comes to accusations of them being not so saintly.
But the first time a black, brown, yellow or red fucks up – bring in the cavalry. Because we commit all the crimes, right?
We even use white created color schemes to describe our skin tones, even when they barely represent reality.
Check this out – where I live, Mexican-American men are shooting each other daily over gang “territory.” These multiple murders no longer make local news – HOWEVER, when a Mexican gang banger stabbed a white high schooler to death it was race riot 09 up in this bitch.
No joke.
Posted 09 Mar 2009 at 2:29 am ¶
amy wrote:
wow. that just changed my whole view on things.
Posted 09 Mar 2009 at 6:21 pm ¶
shah8 wrote:
My god…I know about this exact topic and I come and find this thread already dead…
Okay just in case anyone still is looking, a few examples of how racism hurts white people:
1) In the Post-Reconstruction South, literacy tests were promoted as a way to solve the fact that black people voted (not that they could as a matter of practice, but Republicans liked to stuff ballot boxes with “black” votes). The elites used racism to get bill passed, and promptly used it to disfranchise illiterate white people with land. Some of the white people who left for the West were victims of land grabs that racism directly made possible.
2) Again, in the Post Reconstruction South, but a bit later, and spread out to the 1920s, the kind of severe racism as practiced in the South led to prison labor projects that encouraged and empowered rural police people to be holy terrors, kidnapping any stranger or offending black people and shipping them off to mines and logging projects as well as public works roads and bridge projects. Rule of law collapsed in many of these areas, and stranger white folks started getting arrested and sold to labor camps as well. Middle class and poor white farmer were unable to get extra labor for their own farms, because they could get kidnapped for some corporation.
3) Black people were routinely used as strikebreakers and routinely used to undermine living wage ambitions of white workers because white people’s racism would prevent them from coopting black labor into any lower class angle for higher wages.
4) The Union movement was delayed for a long time because of major internal fights within the early progressive labor unions like the Knights of Labor. Racism also prevented Southern farmers from joining with Western progressives in counteracting Railroad Co’s abusive practices.
5) Southern Dixiecrats watered down The New Deal and nixed National Health Care outright because they didn’t want black people to be able to recieve any benefits. That was probably a mistake…The disastrous effects of poor whites getting cash and inflating prices while poor blacks were left behind was a key element in unifying black politics into a solid civil right campaign. Anyways, the US lack essential social democratic elements like most of the rest of the first world precisely because of racism…to the large detriment of white people.
5) Racism destroyed public education in many areas after desegregation, and poor whites could not afford a real education in their private schools. Education is very, very expensive.
6) Something modern? How about the costs of security theater as a response to anti-Arab racism? The delayed times, tyranny of Homeland Security, the inconveniences of taking off shoes and not having bottles with liquid in them. The loss in tourism from overseas as well as international business and conventions having meetings elsewheres as a response.
Racism….is….a….maintained…feature…of….the…
American Life. Yes, white people get many “benefits” from racism, and many profit from taking land, assets, etc, etc, etc, but the opportunity costs of racism have been *huge*. The average white person would have been vastly richer, more secure in their property rights, and happier if racism had been absent since, say, the Civil War. However, the super-rich and corporations would not be nearly as rich and powerful, and that would be very, very bad to some people very used to having a big voice.
Posted 16 Mar 2009 at 3:00 am ¶