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1. International Women’s Day — Fabmexicana on 09 Mar 2009 at 3:36 pm

   [...] intersections of race/gender in communities of color, specifically around gender based violence, Tricia Rose on Fighting Sexism in a Community Assaulted by Racism Quoted: Tricia Rose on Fighting Se…. [...]

2. Beyond Gossip, Good and Evil : The New Agenda on 14 Mar 2009 at 3:47 pm

   [...] Community told me for the Vibe piece. Recently, Racialicious’s Latoya Peterson wrote in a blog post called “Fighting Sexism in a Community Assaulted by Racism”: “I notice on a lot [...]

3. Beyond Gossip, Good and Evil at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 23 Mar 2009 at 8:16 am

   [...] Community told me for the Vibe piece. Recently, Racialicious’s Latoya Peterson wrote in a blog post called “Fighting Sexism in a Community Assaulted by Racism”: “I notice on a lot of [...]

Comments

1. Fiqah wrote:

   Chord-strike moment:

   ” This community wide standard – which asks women to take the hit (metaphorically and literally), to be content with dynamics in which they sacrifice themselves and care for others’ interests over their own – mimics the terms of an abusive relationship.”

   At this very moment, I’m working on a follow-up post about Black women, Black men and notions of romantic entitlement. (I needed a break from it because it has become kinda emotionally-draining, so back to Racialicious I went!) I was quoting Hortense Spillers (again), and I had just written this: “I can say, without hyperbole, that between enduring/battling the twin demons known as racism and sexism, it does often feel like sisters are in an abusive relationship. With like, the whole fucking planet.” Maybe it’s not as deep as that…but I also know too well that sometimes, that’s exactly what it feels like. Just my two cents.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 11:48 am ¶

2. atlasien wrote:

   If you’re an Asian-American woman who identifies as a feminist online, you’re going to end up being called a sell-out whore at some point.

   There is a loud , vocal contingent of Asian-American men who really poison the atmosphere in a lot of places. If you say “I’m a feminist”, they hear “I worship white men and wholeheartedly support the castration of Asian men”. I used to try to argue with this, but I got tired of being accused of having hysterical and having “hissy fits” and so on. It’s tragic and maddening.

   Of course there are plenty of Asian-American women who are damaged by internalized racism enough to depreciate all Asian-American men. But they don’t necessarily benefit from it… it hurts everyone. For example, I know an older Japanese-American woman who married a fetishizing racist, and is only just now breaking free of a decades-long marriage that was emotionally abusive and financially devastating. When she was younger, she might have turned down some Asian-American men who asked her out, which hurt them, I’m sure. But then she suffered decades of abuse. If these people really want to weigh our separate pain, they need to take stories like that into account.

   All of this does, however, make me REALLY appreciate the Asian-American men online who DON’T act like this. Kai at Zuky, the guys at Poplicks.com, C.N. Le, Angry Asian Man, Jeff Yang… these are just some men I read that prove you don’t have to bash or silence Asian-American women in order to advance the progress of Asian-American men.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 12:08 pm ¶

3. MDM wrote:

   Black women walk a tightrope every single damn day. I see it my neighborhood as well as experienced the insidious propiertary attitude of Black males and how contemptuous the rest of the global world is to Black women that renders us invisible.

   I have come to the conclusion that since Black women do not support each other and of course Black men are out for their own interests as they step on the Black women who many are the walking dead, waiting for validation, love and acceptance that will never be adequate enough.–that I think many of us have no choice but to walk alone. Why is it Black women are often alone, buying houses alone, toiling in silence without respite.

   I honestly think that most people can’t even relate to us as even remotely human. Why is it people see the mammy, the sympathetic asexual friend without a life, the strong woman to carry everyon else’s load, the welfare mother, OOW statistic, the HIV vector and cultural drain. I have experienced the see through stare too many times to believe that its overreacting, hypersenstive race card victimology.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 12:12 pm ¶

4. Monie wrote:

   I think in order to discuss this we have to talk about the different groups of Black women. I think that class and education make a difference.

   Also we need to weed out the usual media narrative that says Black men are bad and Black women are bad for supporting them.

   In truth I, at least amongst educated and middle-class Black women, don’t see any sort of blind support for Black men.

   I think that’s a stereotype that’s perpetuated by constantly showcasing poor under educated Black women, who are by far the minority in the Black community at-large.

   So yes there are Black women supporting Black men who shouldn’t be but I don’t think this is something that is pervasive in the entire community.

   I think if you look at any ethnic group that poor and undereducated women in that group are more likely to support the men who don’t deserve support.

   In other words this is not Black pathology, its human pathology.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 12:27 pm ¶

5. lunanoire wrote:

   THANK YOU for discussing this. I have seen certain problems up close and personal– a woman who was looking to ensure that no physical violence occurred that it took her years to ask for the emotional abuse to stop.

   On one website for black men, I have noticed that the women and men often seem to have a different notion of “equality.” For many of the women, they mean equal rights, equal in the eyes of the law, no job discrimination, equal pay for equal work, etc. For many of the men, they refer to equality as meaning that men and women are exactly the same and refute it by saying that the average man is stronger than the average woman. Many responses to women’s expressions of their pain often get responses like, “why did she choose & stay w/ a lowlife?” and “Boo Hoo. Black men have it hard too.” Where is the empathy from men who think this way, many who think it’s a woman’s role to support, cater to, and look up to her man?

   “these are just some men I read that prove you don’t have to bash or silence Asian-American women in order to advance the progress of Asian-American men.” – Exactly. It is NOT a zero sum game. Why do people treat it as such?

   One common thread I noticed was that some of the men on the board valued a man’s feelings over a woman’s physical well-being. For example, a man whose feelings are hurt when a woman turns him down vs. a woman who has to deal w/ the daily gauntlet of unwanted rude comments and gestures that may turn violent. Also, one man implied that he thought a woman should wear high heels for her man even if she found them painful. I mean, if you’re with someone and share health insurance, it’s literally not worth it. If you respect the person, it’s not worth it. Comparing a man’s hurt feelings to a woman’s twisted ankle is ridiculous!

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 12:28 pm ¶

6. Kandi wrote:

   Sexism has directly affected me way more than racism has. Both are wrong, I get that. But people feel no ways about openly saying that I have inferior intelligence because I’m a female. They’ll think twice about saying that because of my race. I have to suffer the experiences of sexism, complicated by racism, magnified by black male support of sexist oppression, and it makes me pissed! For black men, as a chorus and not individuals, to not see, then be disgusted by and fight against gender oppression with the same passion as they fight against racial oppression is upsetting. It makes me wonder if their desire for acceptance and fairness is too strong for them to fight against the patriarchy. Are they trying to show some sort of commonality by supporting sexism – as in, ‘yeah, we’re the same, I know what you mean…those crazy females’.

   It seems as if they don’t know how it could be them. They could be the victims of violence. Should I name all the ways in which people, especially those within law enforcement, justify their violence against racialized men? This may not happen within an intimate partner setting, but it’s hard not to connect the dots between this and racially motivated violence. When it happens, we hear the chorus of racism-deniers ask what he did to deserve this sort of treatment, what was he wearing, how was he walking, what was he saying, etc. Same devaluing of human life. Same excuse and justification for violent responses.

   There are many other similarities to the way minority men are represented in society: subhuman objectification of body, suspicion of inferior intelligence, group characterization, scientific pursuits to biologically prove inferiority. The list goes on and on.

   As I said before, for them not to draw parallels and get angry about gender oppression and violence, it makes me upset.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 12:28 pm ¶

7. gogojojo wrote:

   I was writing someone on this issue yesterday. Thanks for posting. Like I responded to your twitter I believe that we as WOC need to start believing that combating these issues are just as important as combating racism. Of course, here is preaching to the choir–however, too often in my conversations with other women of color (and particularly Black women in myexperience) tackling issues like domestic violence has been seen as a fringe issue or a conversation started outside the community to start internal conflict.

   One of my frustrations is that wide-spread consciousness-raising about “feminist” or women’s empowerment issues don’t happen more amongst the young Black and brown women that I have known. Like we all seem to take for granted that we are empowered and yet there are many women who still don’t believe that a Black woman has the right to value her own emotional and physical health over “making it work” with a Black man.

   Personally I think part of our problem is an over-investment in creating a heteronormative revolution where the indicator of our progress as a people is the state of Black heterosexual, romantic relationships. Especially since we seemingly are unwilling to talk about some of the major issues affecting the stability of said relationships like domestic violence and abuse.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 12:29 pm ¶

8. Rob Schmidt wrote:

   Latoya, you gave us notes on how women and men of color should respond, but not how white men like me should respond.

   To generalize a little, I’m always a bit mystified when men get defensive about our male-oriented culture. As one article memorably described it, “A culture that confirms the stereotype of the individual as solitary gunslinger and society as a hostile frontier.” Isn’t it obvious, even to macho men, that a feminist-style critique of this society has a lot of validity?

   Similarly, I’m always a bit mystified when whites get defensive about our white-oriented culture. Isn’t it obvious that a culture that allowed genocide and slavery for 400 of its 500 years is somewhat flawed? Do we really still need to discuss this?

   The point is that people should stop being so defensive about the shortcomings of their culture or subculture. In other words, they should stop thinking so much about their own self-interest and self-preservation. Admit the problems, deal with them, and move on.

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 1:04 pm ¶

9. atlasien wrote:

   @gogojojo: “Personally I think part of our problem is an over-investment in creating a heteronormative revolution where the indicator of our progress as a people is the state of Black heterosexual, romantic relationships.”

   That sounds right on! Not being black, it’s not my place to prescribe specific solutions here, I’ll just note that what you’re criticizing fits into a general pattern:

   “We as a community have X internal problem, and to solve it, our women need to behave in Y way to our men, and our men need to behave in Z way to our women…”

   I don’t think that’s the right path… in fact, it’s going to get lost and trail off before ever reaching a solution. Instead, how about:

   “We as a community have X internal problem, and to solve it, individuals in our community need to respect and value other individuals in the community in the following ways…”

   Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 1:31 pm ¶

10. Oli wrote:

    About time this has come up. All I’m gonna say is black women should put themselves(and other black women) first, ‘cos no-one else appears to.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 1:32 pm ¶

11. atlasien wrote:

    @Kandi: I understand what you’re saying but I have a different perspective. I personally can’t say that one is worse than the other, because I experience racism as a woman, and experience sexism as an Asian. So any particular nasty thing I’ve gone through may be 50:50, or 90:10 or 99:1 but never 100:0.

    The main difference I’ve noticed is that sexism is more overt, and works to put the woman in her place. She still has a place, but it’s firmly below the man. Racism is more covert and aims at excluding entirely… in other words, there is no place given. Of course, my observation is a generalization that might be totally different for other people, depending on their race, gender, orientation, environment.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 1:45 pm ¶

12. Katie wrote:

    @Monie -

    I am not trying to negate your personal experience, but it seems that your response is demonizing working-class Black women at the expense of middle-class ones. I challenge the idea that working-class Black women somehow have more internalized sexism than middle-class women do. Education, as we all know, can propagate some really messed up ideas, and also doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is educated in feminism too. There are working-class WOC feminisms and there are also lots of reasons for middle-class women to be complicit in the sexist system, so I do not buy your argument that somehow middle-class women are more enlightened.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:02 pm ¶

13. Invasian wrote:

    atlasien-

    Good points. I definitely know there are A-A men out there who bash A-A women for being, what they call, “traitors,” and the like. It’s quite unfortunate.

    I think it is important for women to take a stand against any bad shit that happens to them from men of their own race. Nobody needs to conform to our racist and sexist society’s view that you must always stand behind men of your race while they are brutalizing you.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm ¶

14. Kavita wrote:

    Sometimes poetry says it best for me:

    won’t you celebrate with me
    what i have shaped into
    a kind of life? i had no model.
    born in babylon
    both nonwhite and woman
    what did i see to be except myself?
    i made it up
    here on this bridge between
    starshine and clay,
    my one hand holding tight
    my other hand; come celebrate
    with me that everyday
    something has tried to kill me
    and has failed.
    –Lucille Clifton

    This poem has gotten me through so much–despair at the welfare office, physical and emotional abuse by my child’s father, intrusive searches by airport security….Sometimes we just have to remember to celebrate our own survival, because the attacks come from all sides. When we celebrate together, there’s strength.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm ¶

15. truthbetold wrote:

    Good lord.

    Real talk here people.

    Aren’t a large number of black women already nursing strident femminist impulses anyway? (Even if not sprinkled with the Betty Fridan/ Naomi Wolf blessing of mainline/anglo femminist thought? )

    Since that answer is ‘yes’, might I, as a male, offer a market-oriented question to what this ‘me, glorious, me’ posture offers large numbers of those women?

    Anyone seen the numbers on black female marraige rates lately?

    Or the rates of HIV infection?

    Or the out of wedlock birth rates?

    And which one of these horrible, soul-crushing stats wouldn’t be reversed if a true understanding of the utmost necessity of a solid, stable, respectful man in their lives wouldn’t ebb and dissolve in time?

    Pardon the aghast but, given the current condistion of black male and female relations, who in their right minds wants to pour some kind of militant gender-based isolationsim disguised as empowerment
    on that pool of gas?

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm ¶

16. moshoeshoe wrote:

    The connections between sexual trauma and domestic abuse cannot be ignored here. women in abusive relationships “take the hits” for varied personal reasons which revolve around self-worth and unmet desires for love and validation (as MDM mentioned). The reasons for staying in these relationships stem from personal histories of abuse as well as social and economic pressures (as i’m sure we all well know).

    The unifying factor across all poor black women is:

    lack of education -> low earning power -> need to have a man -> end up being financially dependent on a man or The Man -> once dependent, is vulnerable to be exploited and abused.

    I really think that this is an issue of education and class within the context of race and gender.

    “But Rhianna is paid!” True, but that doesn’t immunize her against her personal history or the psychology of abuse. Education about women’s rights and domestic abuse (or therapy) is required for healing, and earning power is necessary for independence and security. Both are essential to guard against ever being in a position vulnerable to abuse.

    There is a spectrum of states between completely powerless, unhealthy, and alone to being healthy, self-sufficient and connected to a network of support.

    MDM said: “I have come to the conclusion that since Black women do not support each other and of course Black men are out for their own interests as they step on the Black women who many are the walking dead, waiting for validation, love and acceptance that will never be adequate enough.–that I think many of us have no choice but to walk alone.”

    1. Black women inherit the trauma of self-hatred that is shown in “the barbie test” (where the black child chooses the black doll as the ugly one).

    2. Since they are not automatically validated for their attractiveness or femininity by white society, that sentiment is internalized (or branded into the mind), making it necessary for them to compete with each other for limited resources of validation as an individual of beauty and worth.

    From Wikipedia: “According to the “Contingencies of Self-Worth model” (Crocker & Wolfe, 2001) people differ in their bases of self-esteem. Their beliefs — beliefs about what they think they need to do or who they need to “be” in order to class as a person of worth — form these bases. Crocker and her colleagues (2001) identified seven “domains” in which people frequently derive their self-worth:

    1. Virtue
    2. God’s love
    3. Support of family
    4. Academic competence
    5. Physical attractiveness
    6. Gaining others’ approval
    7. Outdoing others in competition

    3. Since black men are often the source of validation, there is no shortage of black women ingratiating themselves to please them, especially those whose fathers were themselves unable to provide love or validation for them in childhood. I know girls who describe themselves as “down-ass hoes from around the way”. For those who know this phrase and the people who self-describe that way, it is telling of where their sense of worth comes from. Being “down” denotes a sense of loyalty and a willingness to do what’s necessary or asked of them. “Hoes” shows that sexual validation is a core source of self-worth. “Around the way” shows their lack of social mobility, lack of education, which contributes to their sense of being available and dependent, which is attractive to men (unfortunately).

    4. Because there isn’t enough internalized self-worth, external sources become the only way of meeting those needs, which are rarely met to satisfaction by outside sources alone. The byproduct of this dynamic is an extreme vulnerability to abuse by those who provide validation for these women’s long-starved egos.

    5. Until attitudes of self-worth are internalized, no external source can ever provide enough self-regard, no matter how much it is. (see Rhianna)

    6. In general, if no human source is reliable, or too many sources have resulted in bad outcomes, these women may eventually turn to “God’s Love” and “Virtue” to make up for all of the other areas that cannot be met. This can result in asexuality and deliberate self-isolation, or a pathological self-sacrificing dedication to the care-taking of others.

    The other extreme in this strategic spectrum (albeit subconscious for the most part), is one of predation on men through sex, an attempt to take advantage of “what men want” by exploiting sexual desire for material remuneration in sham relationships with rich men. The reason why these two “strategies” are related is that in both cases, the women are not being exploited by men because they do not seek approval from them any more. In the first case, it is the “choice” of a lonely subsistence over what seems to be an impossibly bleak pool of potential partners. In the second, it is the “choice” of using empty sex and empty relationships for self-validation through socioeconomic mobility over what seems to be an impossibly bleak pool of potential partners. I put the word “choice” in quotes because it is not really an option chosen from an unlimited field, nor is it a completely conscious process.

    While much of this discussion is made in sweeping generalities, the actual unfolding of the trends concerned takes place on the level of personal relationships that are varied and unique. Every black individual has to go through the same processes of trauma and recovery, but hopefully, as each individual struggles through that process, the whole of the community will eventually be better for it. I believe that the dynamics of domestic abuse, race-loyalty, and sexism are not limited to the black community or to America, but occur most prevalently in communities of poverty and low social status (tempered by race/religion/culture) all over the planet because education and economic independence are the keys to women’s liberation from cycles of domestic abuse.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:09 pm ¶

17. Niki wrote:

    @truthbe told… I don’t even know where to start with your comment… I going to have to come back to this one… just, wow….

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:20 pm ¶

18. queerhapa wrote:

    Oh Latoya, this issue is close to my heart. And it’s one that people in many marginalized communities (POC, immigrant, LGBTQI, people with disabilities, and on) must deal with: being commanded not to air “dirty laundry,” not to subject your also-marginalized abuser to the oppressive criminal justice system. Facing further abuse yourself from social services, police, shelters, etc.

    I worked for almost ten years in mainstream anti-violence organizations and the racism and classism just left me with an extremely bitter taste in my mouth. The good news is that there are a lot of us who *are* organizing against violence at the intersections and on the margins, locally, nationally, internationally. If you’re not familiar with Incite!, please check out the website: http://www.incite-national.org.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:39 pm ¶

19. Lauren O wrote:

    Niki, I don’t know where to start with truthbetold’s comment either. I guess the easiest place to start would be to tell him that he needs to look up the words “strident” and “aghast” in the dictionary, because they don’t mean what he thinks they mean. I’ll let others handle the more difficult parts.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:42 pm ¶

20. Monie wrote:

    @Katie

    My experience along with anecdotal evidence tells me that middle-class Black women and women in general are less likely to allow themselves to enter situations of abuse and even less likely to stay in an abusive relationship than under-educated women.

    Yes, this is mostly from my personal experience. I was raised in a family of educated middle-class women. I never saw these women in my family allow themselves to be abused by men nor did I see them making excuses for Black men simply because they were Black men.

    The flip side to this is seeing women in college who were not from middle class backgrounds struggle with abusive relationships as they entered college life. These same women left college, by-in-large, with a different perspective which prevented them from entering into those types of abusive relationships.

    Those experiences lead me to believe that education and financial well being are indeed keys to avoiding or not allowing abuse in relationships.

    I really don’t think this demonizes poor or under-educated women as much as it identifies a possible set of reasons why some women stay in abusive relationships.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:47 pm ¶

21. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @truthbetold–for all of the rates of “black female marriage” (do you mean the rates of black women getting married for the first time, by chance?), the HIV rates, and the out-of-wedlock rates….where are you getting this “large” rate of Black women “already nursing strident femminist impulses anyway?” And how exactly are you defining ‘feminist” anyway, esp. coupled with the word “strident?”

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:49 pm ¶

22. gogojojo wrote:

    @kavita I LOVE THAT POEM.

    @moshoeshoe okay i haven’t made it through you’re entire comment so i’ll have to come back to it but I’m kind of frustrated with you’re linkage between “lack of education -> low earning power -> need to have a man -> end up being financially dependent on a man or The Man -> once dependent, is vulnerable to be exploited and abused.”

    mainly because it makes domestic violence and abuse in lesbian relationships invisible. what then makes those women stay? is it simply about economic vulnerability? what about women who are involved in abusive relationships that earn more/have more education than their partners? why are they doing it? I’m guessing from what else I read of your comment its psychological dependency. I’m not sure I disagree with that, but I don’t know if it really captures the entire systemic nature of abuse. To me it still sounds like staying is about the individuals personalities and histories. And not, as I believe as much attributed to norms of society that pressure women and particularly Black and Brown women to stay in abusive relationships.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:51 pm ¶

23. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ gogojojo
    One of my frustrations is that wide-spread consciousness-raising about “feminist” or women’s empowerment issues don’t happen more amongst the young Black and brown women that I have known. Like we all seem to take for granted that we are empowered and yet there are many women who still don’t believe that a Black woman has the right to value her own emotional and physical health over “making it work” with a Black man.

    I share your frustration – although I also recognize that feminism does not always look relevant to young non-white women the way it has been framed (primarily by the media) and the way a lot of its proponents behave (see: the election season). So all things attached, even something more innocuously worded like “women’s empowerment” ends up painted with this privileged-white-women-who-hate/fear-men-of-color brush thereby deterring even more women of color.

    @truthbetold
    Aren’t a large number of black women already nursing strident femminist impulses anyway?

    The answer is actually “no.” Unless, of course, you’d describe believing in one’s value as a human being as a “strident femminist impulse.” Which, sadly, it sounds like you just might. Actually, the answer would probably still be “no.”

    And which one of these horrible, soul-crushing stats wouldn’t be reversed if a true understanding of the utmost necessity of a solid, stable, respectful man in their lives wouldn’t ebb and dissolve in time?

    What on does this mean? That black women start out understanding the “neccesity” of this man but . . . it dissolves in time (somehow)? And that if she just resurrected that, her HIV would go away? She would spontaneously marry? Or something?

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 2:56 pm ¶

24. Tracey wrote:

    @Niki, I’m hoping you disagree in which case please do. please do. Because the most concise response I could come up with that would not take up the room of a 10pg essay would probably get my post deleted. I don’t like that that’s what I’m thinking but its true. And I have a feeling anything anyone says will just be dismissed as:” a bunch of assimilated femi-nazi’s who don’t recognize Divine order and what’s best for them complaining while sipping lattes and reading Dawkins and/or the most efficient ways of castrating males.”

    @moshoeshoe: excellent post. I’ve often felt this way but haven’t been able to adequately express it. I feel that a lot of women see their only value as being getting the affection of others and the feeling that their only worth is as a man’s partner and a mother. That their sexuality is something for men to enjoy. Their is also the other extreme that you pointed out. Often people will advocate complete chastity/abstinence instead of the idea that women should be empowered enough to make decisions based on their feelings and not on the hopes of winning the approval of others. It’s the Madonna/Whore complex run amok.

    I do sometimes wonder about the history of movements. Particularly the African-American movement and the first two waves of the feminist movement. The early feminist movements were not at all inclusive of WOC and poor-women for the most part. For instance, the heavy emphasis on work tended to ignore the fact that a lot, if not most, WOC were working jobs outside their home ( their b/c at one point I think it was like 70% of jobs available to black women in the south were of a domestic variety, it might have been give or take 10%). The early feminist movements were defiantly focused on the needs of upper/middle class white women, and some of the members of the early suffrage movement even used the argument that denying white women the right to vote after it was given to black men was insulting. Again you see a dichotomy that leaves WOC out: white women v. black men.

    To tie that into the posts, looking back at some writings of black men and white women the focus was on getting the same rights as white men. Some early MOC wrote how they wanted the ability to basically be able to treat their women the way white men treated theirs meaning being able to keep them in the house and basically turn them into domesticated birds in cages. There was sometimes emphasis placed on how one of the horrors of discrimination was that it took away the ability of black men to control black women. It is understandable that these men would want to model the relationships had by white men with white women as their was privilege and status with being able to keep women domesticated and in the household. However, that doesn’t mean it was right, just, or fair to women.
    To sum up, I am trying to get across that perhaps MOC feel that control and subjugation of women is a man’s natural right that they have been denied. And I defiantly do think American culture has created a situation in which men may come to think that in order to be “real” men they must control and protect the women in their lives.
    I also feel that there is a lot to the statement “Black men have borne the brunt of racism, more so than black women.” That statement annoys me on a lot of different levels because it implies that one of the greatest wrongs done to black men was their inability to control and protect “their” women. The idea that this wrong was so great that the inability of black men to exercise control over the bodies of black women and to protect their women from rape/sexual exploitation was greater than the rape/sexual exploitation experienced by the women. And I am defiantly not saying that everyone means for that statement to covey that. There are those who use it in reference to police brutality and perceived threat, which I understand the argument for. (However, I still think it downplays the experiences of WOC by making them seem not as harmful.)

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:04 pm ¶

25. truthbetold wrote:

    Niki/Lauren O,

    Pardon the tone of that post.

    But don’t ignore the aghast.

    At some point in this thread, the stream of debate is going to land on the topic of the kinds of choices that large numbers of black women make in their relationships. If it’s not there yet, it’s coming. ‘Soon and very soon’ as the old hymm goes…

    And every single person who reads this blog, who actively continues to educate themself post college knows exactly what the root of our cultural problems are: a skyrocketing out of wedlock birth rate.

    And if we’re honest, and frank, we don’t need some Tavis-Smiley-hosted-talk-a-thon to admit that poor mate selection is the dividing line between the current condition of black women–an dthe black community as a whole–and their ethnic counterparts.

    It is the bright, shining explanation for the absuse stats. And the HIV stats. And the out of wedlock birth stats. And the single-parent household stats. And, if taken to it’s logical tenth, the poor graduation rate stats, and the black on black violence stats.

    We know it. And we deny it.

    But it’s true no matter how often we pretend it’s not.

    This empowerment question? An entire generation of white women asked some version of it of themselves in from the late 60’s and onward. Their answer?

    It was all well and good to think of onself as an independent entity, and demand that the culture at large respect one as such.

    But you will be hard pressed to find large numbers of women who consider themselves femminists today.

    That ‘me, glorious, me’ posture was seen as cheifly reponsible for a skyrocketing divorce rate in the late 70’s that continued unabated until the mid 90’s.

    And all I’m saying is, the dominant culture in this country already played with this ideological matcbox, and got burned by it.

    And given the stats, black women simply cant afford to dabble in such foolishness.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:14 pm ¶

26. atlasien wrote:

    The extra “m” in “femminist” means they’re twice as mman-hating.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:21 pm ¶

27. Tracey wrote:

    @truthbetold:
    a skyrocketing out-of-wedlock birthrate is more of a symptom than a root cause. A study showed than when assured of economic stability they divorced their husbands b/c they were in the relationships b/c they could literally not afford to be single (this was in the 60s when women had very little options in terms of a steady income).
    And truth be told, thanks to that last sentence, I’m about 5 sec away from violating one of the core tenants of my faith.
    “And given the stats, black women simply cant afford to dabble in such foolishness.” There is much to be said and discussed for the other things you wrote but that was just condescending. If you really think a large number of women already have a feminist mentality, what do you think a man telling black women what they and do not have time to do is going to do.
    If you really think we’re playing with matches, then on a discussion board were the people are less cordial than they are here, that statement would have been the equivalent of dousing yourself in lighter fluid. Not that I think you care.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:27 pm ¶

28. Monie wrote:

    @truthbetold

    “…It is the bright, shining explanation for the absuse stats. And the HIV stats. And the out of wedlock birth stats. And the single-parent household stats. And, if taken to it’s logical tenth, the poor graduation rate stats, and the black on black violence stats…”

    I think you are a victim of the mainstream media’s love for stats that portray Black people as being less than in everyway.

    The problem with these so-called studies that give birth to the stats that you seem to think justifies your argument is that often they are problematic in that no one has ever tried to replicate them. Also it is possible to look at raw numbers and draw all sorts of conclusions.

    Once again these stats are being used, in this case by you, to tell Black women that all of our problems are organic and if we just do this or do that we too can be ‘normal’ like White women.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:28 pm ¶

29. lunanoire wrote:

    @ Tracey:

    Exactly. Stating that a man’s emotional pain from being unable to protect a woman in his life from violence/rape is greater than or equal to the pain experienced by the woman’s physical and emotional pain from experiencing the violence/rape is ridiculous and rarely true.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:36 pm ¶

30. lunanoire wrote:

    truthbetold,

    You do realize that the stats you mentioned all require human interaction to occur (assuming HIV transmitted through intercourse is what’s referred to here). Domestic violence requires an abuser and an abus-ee. HIV requires intercourse. Out of wedlock births require intercourse. Clearly, there is someone abusing these women, contributing sperm, and infecting them.

    Do some black women make unhealthy choices regarding their interactions? Yes. But instead of blaming them, let’s ask why they do and how they can heal to make better choices.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:43 pm ¶

31. Eva wrote:

    “poor mate selection is the dividing line between the current condition of black women–an dthe black community as a whole–and their ethnic counterparts.”

    “That ‘me, glorious, me’ posture was seen as cheifly reponsible for a skyrocketing divorce rate in the late 70’s that continued unabated until the mid 90’s.”

    There seems to be a contradiction here. If you’re saying that poor mate selection is the issue, then what’s wrong with a woman thinking, “me glorious me?” If she thinks she’s worthy, then she’s less likely to choose a lousy mate.

    Maybe the problem is this emphasis on “finding a mate.”

    As for the divorce rates: Isn’t it still true that half of marriages end in divorce?

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:48 pm ¶

32. Niki wrote:

    I am co-signing with Monie’s reply to truthbetold.

    @ truthbetold I think things such as the out of wedlock birthrate, HIV, etc. are symptoms of a problem and I don’t think that “y’all chicks need to learn how to find a good man” is the cure-all solution you seem to think it is. Do you think that men may have a part in the problem/solution as well? I am not trying to assign “blame” as you seem to want to do, but honestly would like an answer to this question.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:49 pm ¶

33. Jennifer wrote:

    I just finished dinner with a well educated, well traveled, Black male who is a financial adviser. He does so much work and was advising us on finance and our futures. It was a very random , chance meeting. He was just getting dinner.

    I was first shocked by my own ignorance. At first when he joined the table, I was like…..”Why is this guy here. We don’t even know him? ”

    And he kept us so captivated. I couldn’t imagine a man so well put together hitting a woman, but then I realized, that’s how it happens. I don’t know this person , and he sure does have enough self confidence to come up to a table with two strange women and one he barely knows. He has some kids, but didn’t speak of marriage or anything. He was 33 (we are college students-juniors).

    I felt bad about my first reactions to him, because so much information on black men is about how dangerous they are, not how talented, skilled and considerate they are. Or how they are willing to help a person who needs information and guidance. Who knows, Maybe it was the guy in him come to help 3 young ladies,but still.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 3:57 pm ¶

34. Shelby wrote:

    I mean, I would really love to get married someday. And I think racism has something to do with our (BlackWomen’s) low rate of marriage… but DAMN! I just really don’t think our advancement as a people hinges on all of us being good, hetero, Christians pairing up and making “legitimate” babies for all of eternity. Is that really the key to it all? Can’t we love and support each other without having to subscribe to this all this western, heteronormative, WHITE-bred way of life?

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:04 pm ¶

35. Fiqah wrote:

    Okay. First things first.

    @TCS: I was hoping you’d show up.
    @Kavita: That poem is awesome. Thank you.
    @A.D. Nix: THANK you, supportive and brilliant MoC. You have no shortage of fans here.
    @Tracey: Precisely, too many MoC talk about wanting equality, when what they REALLY want is White male privelige for themselves, at the expense of equality for us all.
    @atlasien: Most succinct and intelligent summation of the gender relations issue communities of color ever.
    @The Editrix: Thank you for this thought-provoking topic. I am praying that you aren’t forced to shut down the thread because shit gets outta hand.
    @All listed above: ::: collective fist pump:::
    [End of polite commentary.]
    :::sharpens knives:::

    @truthbetold: You said “poor mate selection is the dividing line between the current condition of black women–an dthe black community as a whole–and their ethnic counterparts.” Wow…what year is this again? Just saying, Daniel Patrick Moynihan called; he wants his old views back. I think you should be careful with statements like that. (Just for starters, SUPER heterosexist, dude.) What I believe you’re trying to say is that if Black women did a better job at choosing their mates, we wouldn’t be in this mess -astronomical HIV infection rates, woeful woeful singleness, all the other ills that we all know, thanks to your illumination, we can blame SOLELY on Black women’s selfish, self-interested “strident” pseudo-feminist pathology. Another Black woman might argue that perhaps part of the PROBLEM is the piss- poor selection of available Black male mates…lucky for you, I ain’t her. These problems are bigger than romantic choices. The love of a Good Black Man is just that: love, no more, and no less. It is NOT a panacea. The Black community is NOT going to shit because of the declining social significance of lifelong marriage and out-of-wedlock births. These are indicators of larger social change, not the roots of modern social problems. Please join us here in 2009 as soon as possible.

    If you wanna REALLY tell the truth, truthbetold, then you need to understand that addressing the problems in communities of color will take more than your sexist finger-pointing and proselytizing.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:06 pm ¶

36. moshoeshoe wrote:

    @gogojojo: *here’s another mouthful sry *

    i didn’t address lesbian relationships because the post was specifically concerned with abusers who are black men. I would imagine that dynamics would be similar, in that both the abuser and victim have emotional baggage that is playing out in their relationship as a power struggle between victim and perpetrator roles, but I think that’s for a whole ‘nother conversation.

    Yes, i argue that psychological dependence/pathology is what keeps women who have the ability to be economically independent in abusive relationships, namely by referencing Rhianna, who is paid, and doesn’t have a reason to take Chris back. It takes both an internalized education about abuse AND financial independence to make sure that one is not in a position to be cyclically abused.

    I tried as best I could to cover everything, but I didn’t want to write a novel on the subject, so only so much could be covered in that one post. I don’t deny that social norms (see the barbie doll test) don’t come into play, but part of my point is that over-generalizing all abusive relationships between black men and women where women are the victims is useful to a point, but is ultimately a too-wide brush that ignores the nuance and complexity of human behavior.

    What i tried to provide was a psychological blueprint of psychosocial dynamics that can cause women to be caught in cyclic, often multigenerational domesic abuse. There is “Society”, and societies within “Society” and so on. Being black in New England is different than being black in rural Missouri (since we seem to only be talking about the US). Being black in brooklyn is different than being black in harlem. Even locales or race or class cannot automatically predict the individual identities or pathologies of anyone within them, but because we are generalizing for the purposes of discussion, we ultimately resort to stereotypes of Black Men, Black Women, and Black Relationships. We are talking about two stereotypes in an abusive relationship – which is a (hopefully) a functional decision, due to the number of people involved in the conversation from a wide variety of backgrounds. It serves the specific (though mostly unacknowledged) purpose of comparing personal stereotypes in a collective arena and trying to apply the outcome to our own lives and worldviews.

    However, it is important to keep in mind that this discussion is FAR different in purpose and result than a discussion about a relationship between Tyrone and Ourika, or Rhianna and Chris, or Tina and Ike, or _____ and _____, who are all black individuals with their own specific identities and personal baggage. This is why I tried to give a very light and general overview of psychological dynamics behind black female victims of domestic abuse for a general discussion about generalized, stereotypical scenarios.

    In a nutshell, all abuse contains three things:

    1. The perpetrator’s privilege, power, and opportunity to abuse.

    2. A perpetrator’s engagement in abusive behavior driven by the effects of their own victimhood at the hands of some other, yet more privileged perpetrator(s), agent(s), norm(s), or act(s) of nature.

    3. A less privileged, less powerful victim, who is driven to remain engaged in abusive relationships as a result of the effects of their victimhood at the hands of some other abuser(s), more powerful agent(s), norm(s), or act(s) of nature.

    Therefore, the more power and privilege one has, the less likely one will be abused. The less opportunity a more powerful person has to abuse, the less it will happen. It is more efficient to seek power and privilege than it is to try to limit the opportunity for abusers to abuse. Health, education, social influence, and wealth are the primary roots of privilege and power, therefore the more one has of these, the less the chance that one will be abused.

    Like a previous post asked, victims can also be perpetrators, and perpetrators can also be victims – it’s the circle of abuse. I really don’t know what else to say.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:11 pm ¶

37. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Truthbetold –

    I’m cutting you off. Don’t bother to comment anymore. If your answer to all of these complex, nuanced problems is “go get a dick,” we cannot even engage on this issue.

    Ye fucking gods. I’ve been in too many conversations this week combating foolishness. We’re elevating the conversation here.

    @Fiqah –

    “I can say, without hyperbole, that between enduring/battling the twin demons known as racism and sexism, it does often feel like sisters are in an abusive relationship. With like, the whole fucking planet.”

    There was a time last year when I wanted to build a post arguing that Lauryn Hill’s “Ex-Factor” is a metaphor for black gender relations. But conversations like that aren’t going to work right now – it appears to me that too many men of color have no idea *why* we seek out feminism in the first place. They have no idea what we are going through. And so, no matter how I write that piece, it will be construed as an attack until I can find a way to have MOC understand WOC reality.

    atlasien –

    All of this does, however, make me REALLY appreciate the Asian-American men online who DON’T act like this. Kai at Zuky, the guys at Poplicks.com, C.N. Le, Angry Asian Man, Jeff Yang

    Cosign. Most progessive MOC are listening, rather than commenting, but it is so refreshing to speak with men who get it.

    @MDM –

    I honestly think that most people can’t even relate to us as even remotely human.

    Yes, the double othering is a bitch and a half.

    @Monie –

    I think in order to discuss this we have to talk about the different groups of Black women. I think that class and education make a difference.

    I disagree. Emotions can trump education and common sense and upper class women also suffer abuse. It’s just kept more quiet. While we *must* educate women about abuse, there will still be those who understand all these principles and find themselves in that situation anyway.

    @lunanoire –

    THANK YOU for discussing this. I have seen certain problems up close and personal– a woman who was looking to ensure that no physical violence occurred that it took her years to ask for the emotional abuse to stop.

    Same here. There is also the issue of how many women draw the line at physical abuse, but accept other kinds.

    One common thread I noticed was that some of the men on the board valued a man’s feelings over a woman’s physical well-being.

    Oh yes. Here’s one we hear a lot: “What if this accusation ruins his reputation?” Not just Chris Brown, but other men as well. But the question is rarely flipped to ask what is the woman risking to bring this to light.

    @Kandi –

    Are they trying to show some sort of commonality by supporting sexism – as in, ‘yeah, we’re the same, I know what you mean…those crazy females’.

    Yes, I’ve actually seen that in professional settings. Bonding by exclusion.

    @gogojojo –

    Like we all seem to take for granted that we are empowered and yet there are many women who still don’t believe that a Black woman has the right to value her own emotional and physical health over “making it work” with a Black man.

    Very true. One of the things that informs my feminism is the women who think they have no use for it. How does what I am doing benefit them? It’s a different kind of reframing. I assume that there are some women who will never be down with women’s equality. But that just makes me think I need to focus on things that people understand as concrete. The knowledge and techniques we build and use should be around for those who want them, whenever that may be.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:11 pm ¶

38. Kandi wrote:

    @atlasien – Agreed. It’s just hard for me to swallow the ‘racism is paramount’ pill I am served so frequently. Yes, they operate in two different but related ways: overtly and covertly. I find that I am affected by sexism way more than it is acknowledged, as if I’m being led to believe that WOC don’t experience it, are immune, or are accepting of it. As you said, it’s the ‘traitor’ accusations that complicate things. We stand here and fight against racism together, but stand alone to fight sexism.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:14 pm ¶

39. Jennifer wrote:

    Anyone please answer me:

    why ISN’T marriage the answer to the problem?

    marriage sounds like a good answer, but I understand its not. Why?

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:19 pm ¶

40. 123we wrote:

    I have a mother that was told to prove her love to my father by throwing her child out of the house. That child was me and I was regularly thrown out of the house often after 12 AM to show her love for my father often until I was 16 and had had enough. I left home at 16 to never return. 12 years later there is a new man in my mother’s life who approaches me while my mother is standing in front of me and demands a menage-a-tois between all parties present. My mother didn’t flinch and it was then obvious he had discussed this with her before the request. I haven’t let my mother step foot in my house since and I barley speak to her more than once a year. My mother screams often that she is “down for what ever” for her Black Men but doesn’t realize at what cost. The Black Men she attracts are users of drugs and abusers of weak women. My mother is 57 years old and I will not be surprised if she dies alone after being abused often by these Black Men who know she has no self worth and use that to their benefit.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:19 pm ¶

41. vodalus wrote:

    Ok, truthbetold, let’s do a little thought exercise. Let’s say that black women in general do not select good mates. They tend to associate with violent, disrespectful men who won’t or can’t marry them. So these women catch terrible diseases and have bastard children.

    How is this difficulty in finding a “solid, stable, respectful man” a product of strident feminism? Seems to me that if women valued their own well-being above all other concerns, then they wouldn’t have such a hard time finding a man to treat them right.

    And why then do these man-hating feminists then stay with these abusive men? Again, a strident feminist who thinks “me, glorious me” would probably feel little compulsion to stay with a man who hurts her regularly.

    Your arguments also don’t really explain why black women also feel put upon to defend black men when those black men hurt black women. That right there is the crux of the original post: why do minority women so often feel compelled to abandon sexual equality in the pursuit of racial equality–even in the face of physical violence?

    I can see how one might make the argument that feminism is responsible for female promiscuity, single motherhood and increased divorce rates. The feminist movement did convince many women that they don’t have to be in a relationship in order to have sex, children or a livelihood. Some people even blame feminism for increased sexual violence–because men wouldn’t have to put women in their place if they weren’t so darn uppity. But feminism does not explain why women do stay in misogynistic (women-hating) relationships. It doesn’t explain why women tolerate sexual violence or excuse the men who perpetrate it. It certainly doesn’t explain why other men tolerate and excuse violent offenders.

    In short, I think that feminism and “poor mate selection” are not adequate explanations for the phenomena being explored. Not only do these explanations contradict each other, but they also fail to explain societal tolerance of sexual violence when taken separately.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:29 pm ¶

42. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Rob – I think you figured it out.

    @Oli –

    Oh, this issue is always here. Especially on this blog. The problem is carving out the time to parse it out.

    @Katie –

    Cosign.

    @Invasian –

    Also cosign.

    @Kavita –

    Also love the poem. So poignant, so true.

    @moshoeshoe –

    Interesting theory, though I would ask where societal reinforcement of said norms plays into things. I don’t feel like it is *just* a matter of economic independence. There are a variety of ways to achieve that. But there is an undercurrent message in society that says “your financial future is contingent on you landing a man with money and you need to use attractiveness and sex to get it.”

    @Queerhapa –

    It’s near and dear to mine as well. And I plan to name check Incite when I finally write on CB and Rihanna.

    @Eva –

    Maybe the problem is this emphasis on “finding a mate.”

    For real. Especially when the messages accompanying that isn’t “be a quality person and make sure your mate compliments you” – it’s all that other bs. Like settling. This isn’t just in the black community either – some white woman who wrote for the Atlantic apparently has both a book and a movie option for her ode to settling for someone you’re just blah about.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:30 pm ¶

43. March3209 wrote:

    truthbetold wrote:

    “Anyone seen the numbers on black female marraige rates lately?

    Or the rates of HIV infection?

    Or the out of wedlock birth rates?

    And which one of these horrible, soul-crushing stats wouldn’t be reversed if a true understanding of the utmost necessity of a solid, stable, respectful man in their lives wouldn’t ebb and dissolve in time?”

    Funny how you completely fail to consider the poor choices black women have. Marriageable black men are in low supply for various reasons, including the tendency of the most highly successful black men to marry non-black women. Men of other groups tend not to take black women seriously as romantic partners.

    You have a regressive attitude that a black woman should marry any male so long as he’s black. Most women want men who are equal or superior in education and income-earning power. That’s the true recipe for a “solid, stable” life. I notice you don’t quote the equally “soul-crushing” numbers for black men who are high school dropouts, in prison, or unemployed.

    High HIV rates are due to black women not insisting that black men use condoms: A great example of too much accomodation.

    (Not even bothering to respond to the absurd attack on feminism and basic misuse of vocabulary.)

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:33 pm ¶

44. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ Fiqah
    The initials throw people off but I’m actually a regular ol’ woman. But I would hope that I’d think the same thing if I were a dude!

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:34 pm ¶

45. March3209 wrote:

    Typo:
    accommodation

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:34 pm ¶

46. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Jennifer –

    Because marriage isn’t a magic potion to be pulled out to remedy society’s ills.

    Because marriages are not always perfect and take work and commitment and maintenance.

    Because even people engaged in a marriage can be unfaithful to their partner.

    Because two people engaged in marriage may mutually agree to have multiple sex partners.

    Because a marriage certificate never stopped an abuser.

    Because a marriage only works if both people want it to.

    Because suckering someone into marrying you out of obligation or duty is hurtful to them.

    Shall I continue?

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:38 pm ¶

47. vodalus wrote:

    Because a marriage certificate never stopped an abuser.

    And let’s add that a marriage certificate has frequently enabled an abuser.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:41 pm ¶

48. Fiqah wrote:

    @A.D. Nix – oops! My bad! Fist pump still stands.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 4:44 pm ¶

49. Tracey wrote:

    @ Jennifer “Anyone please answer me:
    why ISN’T marriage the answer to the problem?marriage sounds like a good answer, but I understand its not. Why?”

    I think it’s b/c marriage doesn’t solve low self-esteem, limited potential, poor self-perception, and devaluation of self. It will not be that big of a step for women who have a view of themselves as valuable only as mothers and girlfriends to see their selves valuable only as wives and mothers.
    I feel that the problem is the idea that a partner is going to complete you and that you need the validation of a partner to feel you have your own worth. Someone on here did a wonderful post about how marriage is great but before you marry you need to make sure that you are whole in and of yourself first b/c if you expect someone else to complete you then the relationship is already off to a bad start . The metaphor this person used was that you have to be the cake and look for your partner to be the icing on the cake ( not the milk or flour). Interestingly enough that is what a relationship counselor who has a ph.d in psychology said about relationships. Except ze used the metaphor of a cup with holes. If you are not complete, it doesn’t matter what you pour into your life your cup will never be full.

    That marriage doesn’t solve the problem of self-perception and worth is made apparent in one sense because it is often said that women will be forgiving even if they think their husband is cheating on them. As a matter of fact, someone who wrote a book about being on the down low said one thing he would do was try to make his wife think he was seeing another woman and not a man.
    Also, it seems a lot of time women will fight over a man with the woman he is cheating on her with. Some women will not take their frustrations out on the cheating male, but will instead fight another woman who may not even know in an effort to keep him. To me that just screams low self-esteem and I am disgusted the media plays this up as the way to go. Instead of being encouraged to get rid of a man they can’t trust or at least have a serious conversation with their partner, they are expected to go “fight for their man.” And some women really do buy this making me think that they see at least part of their worth attached to having a partner in their life.
    Marriage can be great, but only if both partners are happy with who they are going in and don’t expect the other person to complete or validate them. Be the icing on their cake they would much rather have, absolutely. Be someone they will debase themselves for, absolutely not. If and when people enter into what is meant to be a life long commitment, even though they shouldn’t feel they need that person, they should feel that it is someone they should be willingly to sacrifice dreams and comforts for. I don’t know how well equipped someone who has low self-perception to begin with will be able to do that.
    I really feel that if women were encouraged to develop higher self-esteem and get a more sex-positive attitude (women who have good sex education and consider themselves empowered to make choices that reflect their values) and understand that no one else can make you happy with who they are other than them, you will see things like unplanned pregnancies and STDs go down. Women with self respect will hopefully care enough about themselves to wait until they are ready to have sex, and if not within marriage or a committed relationship, will care enough about themselves to use protection and enough about their future to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.
    In other words people must value themselves for who they are as a human being with the potential to realize their dreams, not just as Girlfriends, Wives, Patriarchs ( b/c I think opinions like truth be told can be bred from men getting a sense of worth from controlling or sleeping with women). Also, some arguments go that marriage can provide stability, but I don’t think anyone should stay with a partner that may only weigh them down in the future be more a yoke than a companion. Should both parents be involved, absolutely. Does that necessarily mean marriage, no. Marriage just doesn’t get at the root of the problem, Girlfriends/baby mammas to Wives/baby mammas is just not the answer for me. (Not to mention I’m one of those pesky Queer radicals who signed on to the Beyond Marriage Document).

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 5:09 pm ¶

50. queerhapa wrote:

    @vodalus: Cosign! Historically, marriage has signified the transfer of ownership of women from their fathers to their husbands. Women as the property of men is Patriarchy 101.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 5:12 pm ¶

51. moshoeshoe wrote:

    @Latoya

    Because of the legacy of sexist discrimination in the educational system and the workplace (especially poor/working class black women) the norm of having a man (with earning power) for financial support has historically been a matter of survival. If we take the most extreme “Push-esque” case; if an uneducated black woman has no value to a patriarchal society except for her attractiveness, sex, and reproductive ability, then what is left for her to rely upon for her subsistence? If that woman is not deemed attractive by the norms of her society because of her race and gender (traits that cannot be changed by skill or work), then all she has left is her sex and her reproductive ability. The emotional result of a woman who is only validated from the neck down is that she has internalized thousands of messages that her heart and her mind are worthless and unlovable, which causes her to permit others to treat her accordingly. To her, it appears that she deserves what she gets because she has internalized the value assigned to her by the way that her community treats her (the most important of whom are her parents or caretakers).

    In the case of capitalist patriarchy, it’s all about earning power and wealth first and foremost as the yardstick for measuring the social value of human beings. The norms that you are talking about bombard everyone all the time, especially through entertainment media and the educational system – so much so that its ubiquitous presence is as normal as the sky being over our heads. These messages are being internalized constantly, and often subconsciously. Not to mention the problematic norms that can be handed down through the family and the church.

    But her validation as being a human being of worth is dependent on factors out of her control, such as economic class, the emotional and mental health of her parents and the social justness of her immediate environment. But, these factors are directly related to social class – the availability of therapy for the parents, the lack of competition for jobs between members of the community, lower instances of criminal activity and hate crimes, etc.

    Essentially, the message of the norm is “you better get a man that can provide, or else you’re nothing at all.” My point is that you can’t be property at all if you are an owner.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 5:33 pm ¶

52. Celeste wrote:

    @123we: My experience with a blended (poorly) family was no where near as awful as your but this mindset that a woman should choose her man over her offspring is way too common. If a man feels that his position is threatened by your children then there’s your sign that he’s not good for you much less your children. If I had children I would be *super* paranoid about bringing men into their lives because some of them still have this primitive male-lion- taking- over- a-pride attitude toward existing children. Scary stuff. So after the mother sacrifices her children she rarely gets you the love fromthe man that was promised. She finds herself abandoned and ends up trying to reconnect with the discarded child. Not every discarded child is willing to forgive, though.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 5:35 pm ¶

53. March3209 wrote:

    It’s sad that black women and black men often seem at odds with each other, but it’s not just the media’s fault. In my experience, black men, whether they be successful or struggling, don’t seem overly concerned with the fate of black women.

    Most of the highly successful black men I know are with non-black women, usually white women, and while they may be concerned about the future of their biracial children, they are not concerned about black people as a whole, and certainly not black women, whom they tend to regard as asexual or “angry” and “difficult” like everybody else.

    The comment about black men joining the Patriarchy to gang up on black women was spot-on.

    One of many reasons this matters is because the workplace, the supposed key to equal opportunity and upward mobility, is still highly patriarchal and sexist; men tend to help women who they find attractive and on some level see as wives or daughters. I have no reason to believe that young black women will even get the benefit of this “upside” of sexism. Black men are going to help perpetuate it, and black women will continue at a disadvantage because they’re not even considered part of the real game.

    Economically disadvantaged and uneducated black men, with whom I have less experience as an adult, seem content to use black women and black culture likes to guilt-trip black women for having the effrontery to want more.

    I’m generalizing of course, but I’ve seen these dynamics in practice frequently.

    If black women have to be some kind of weird transitional generation where they work as hard as men while getting fewer rewards as compared with men of all races and non-black women, the least they can do is look out for themselves.

    There should be no guilt about that.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 5:50 pm ¶

54. gatamala wrote:

    And let’s add that a marriage certificate has frequently enabled an abuser.

    YES. With official sanction.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 5:57 pm ¶

55. Sobia wrote:

    I remember reading about this in Tricia Rose’s Black Noise and realizing how similar it was for Muslims. Muslim men are already stereotyped as controlling, violent and oppressive and Muslim women as weak, oppressed, and mindless. Such damaging stereotypes have hindered many Muslims from talking about violence against women in our communities. It feels like if we talk about it *someone* will inevitably jump on it as “proof” of the stereotypes.

    Even I have felt hesitant to discuss it for fear of having my Muslim brothers further stigmatized – especially since all the Muslim men in my life are not violent in any sense of the word. However, I feel we have to address the issue but all the while making *very* sure to not fuel Islamophobia. This is a very difficult tightrope to walk and a very fine balance to keep but without it things will just get worse. So many minority women already don’t get help as it is for fear of stigmas, if that balance is not kept, these women will only be more hindered.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 6:17 pm ¶

56. Just A Thought wrote:

    This is very difficult to for me to respond to because I have propogated this kind of foolish thinking that subjugates my womanhood to my blackness. It was part of the thinking handed down to me, and never became an issue that I dealt with critically until I became a victim of domestic violence. I’d suffered emotional abuse from childhood onward, and drew the line only at physical abuse. I thought “winning” a black man to complete the “perfect” family unit was some kind of testament to my fidelity as an upstanding member of the black race. The very things that have given me personal agency have been derided by black women in my own family, let alone the black men that I dated who could not fathom being supportive of me and my achievements. The assumed privilege of white middle class feminists turns me off, simply because while I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed, I do not see any meaningful discussion of issues that are particular to me, as a WOC. And with black forums, I am a man-hating, bitter, lonely, lesbian black B**** who only lives to bring the black man down. There is a strong undercurrent of hateful perception towards black women, their personhood, their bodies, that swims jsut below the surface of our society, and black women have done ourselves a great disservice in trying to overthrow it. The majority of women that I knew who called themselves “strong black women” attacked other women, viewed themselves as only complete if they had a black man, and suffered some kind of abuse in relationships. Financial empowerment is only one part of the equation, because a lot of black women are “independent” and still taking mess off of men. I don’t know what the solution is, but I do believe we need to reconstruct the image of the black women, and black women need to start believing in it.

    Sorry that I rambled, but I sometimes find it hard to accomodate the varying complexities that come with being a pro-woman, bordeline radical Black woman.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 6:35 pm ¶

57. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @Sobia–

    It feels like if we talk about it *someone* will inevitably jump on it as “proof” of the stereotypes.

    Also,

    This is a very difficult tightrope to walk and a very fine balance to keep but without it things will just get worse. So many minority women already don’t get help as it is for fear of stigmas, if that balance is not kept, these women will only be more hindered.

    You took the words right out of my mind, Sobia. I was going say nearly the same thing in addressing what queerhapa said upthread about the “airing dirty laundry” admonition, namely that the admonition partly comes from not wanting an individual’s negative–if not downright pernicious–actions to become “proof” of a stereotype of the group to which zie belongs.

    Thanks for saying this so eloquently.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 8:39 pm ¶

58. March3209 wrote:

    Am I the only one who gets irritated by the Beyoncé “Single Ladies” video?

    After the humor and the sexy glamor, it treats women like chattel.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 8:44 pm ¶

59. NancyP wrote:

    I get the impression that middle-class immigrants from the Indian subcontinent are very reluctant to talk about domestic abuse because they don’t want their business in the street – the same shame that was prevalent in white middle-class native-born Americans a generation ago – “What if my neighbors, other mothers in my child’s playgroup, folks at church/temple/whatever find out about this?” (A friend of mine is a professional advisor for the local Indian/Pakistani/Bangla domestic abuse group).

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 8:53 pm ¶

60. Hibbs4Prez wrote:

    {Apologizing ahead of time for the ranr}

    Good grief, LaToya. Your message for men to listen first is condescending. One can argue that every person can be given that warning no matter their sex, race, class, etc. I’m sure many men have been “listening” before responding, you simply didn’t notice them. You noticed the guys you found to be defensive.

    Here’s my take. As a black man I feel no need to defend Chris Brown. I don’t care about him at all. I also care even less about Rhianna. That being said it was inexcusable what Chris did to her. And their hooking back up? Even more stupid. For both parties, but especially for her.

    My main problem though is that when a black female is beaten up by a black male and it gets media attention, some black females often want to make it out to be an issue about the abuse of black women by black men rather than an issue of the abuse of women by men. Its also annoying that some black women seem to think that any type of abuse or betrayal they by black men they deal with is more hurtful than those abuses and betrayals that non-black women also deal with from men. Its not. Abuse is abuse. No need to measure the pain of the hurt.

    Its not just black women, or women of color who deal with domestic violence. White women deal with it all the time too. Its a sickness throughout every society in the world. And regardless if the site that brings up the subject is a mainstream site, a black site, an Asian site, etc, it would be best if the people focusing on it view it from that perspective of men using their physical advantage against women.; race being insignificant in the equation. But when folks out there make the Chris Brown-Rhianna incident all about black women being beaten down by black men, it gets kind of tired. So tell me if Chris had a white girlfriend and beat her up would it have been any better? Would it be less worthy of discussion? Would the whole topic get a sick anti-interracial slant? The same could be asked if Rhianna had a white boyfriend who beat her senseless. Would a racial angle (the dominant white male trying to keep the black woman in her place, etc) had been interjected? And would that have been fair if deep down race had nothing to do with the guy going off on a black woman?

    You and others want to make this Brown-Rhianna thing a regular topic of discussion on Racealicious? Okay. I think its not the type of race-and-the-media type of topic I expected from this site. But, hey, I may be in the minority on that one. That being said I admit I tend to roll my eyes a bit when you take the discussion down this road. If a white female celebrity gets beat up by a white male celebrity I can be almost certain that I won’t read anything about white women and the domestic violence white men inflict upon them. It would strictly be about the physical abuse of women by men. Its only when a “minority” is involved does it become about more than what men do to women. It morphs into a discussion concerning what men of color do to women of color. Perhaps that’s the reason some men of color get defensive in such discussions. Race gets brought into it and overshadows the fact that no racial group has a minority on domestic violence. In the end whether the woman being beaten is a poor, Hispanic, female immigrant being beaten by her poor, Hispanic husband or a rich Anglo Saxon women being smacked around by her well, respected, rich Anglo Saxon husband the emotional and physical pain is the same. Both women may be just as likely to stay with the abusive spouses and blame themselves regardless of their economic and social conditions.

    Look, we all know that in this society often the abuse and deaths of non-white women can be ignore by the media. If the women of color aren’t celebrities like Rhianna the media may not give a hoot. At the same time we also know that the media is also more likely to, proportionally speaking, play up the negative qualities of non-white men too. Hell, black female authors have made a living off it. The book industry for years couldn’t get enough of all the novels that dealt with the poor, downtrodden black women suffering at the hands of vicious, beast-like black men. Particularly when the books were written by black women. And books written by black women in which black male characters were presented as ideal, kind hearted love interests for the female characters? Those were much more rare. Of course the reverse existed for books by white women. It didn’t matter that white females dealt with sexist behavior and violence from their spouses and lovers too. White men were not going to be demonized by female authors. The publishing industry and mainstream America would never accept that.

    . Another example of how the media works is the celebrity rags. People magazine never did a story about Puffy and Jennifer Lopez as a couple UNTIL that controversy occurred in which gunshots went off in that club. While he didn’t shoot the gun it did belong to him and he came under suspicion of having instigated everything. Well, suddenly People mag discovered the couple and put Puffy and JLo on its cover! And its cover title indicated that Puffy’s lifestyle could be dangerous for Jennifer. This is happening again with Rhianna and Chris. Even when Rhianna was at her peak with the Umbrella song the celeb mags did not put her on the cover. But now that her black boyfriend has beaten her to a pulp she is now seen as being an America sweetheart by these lily white magazines? Suddenly I can’t turn my head at a checkout line without my eyes coming across Rhianna’s image on the cover of these publications. I can’t speak for other black dudes but that’s another reason why I refuse to give this story much attention. But then again I never paid Chris and Rhianna any attention before the incident.

    Excuse me if I don’t feel guilty or defensive over what Chris Brown did. It has nothing to do with me. I think the guy is a fool for losing control and it would be justified if he got jail time. But I, myself, have not laid a hand on a girl since I was five years old. I also have never been in trouble with the law and have little patience for folks that do. So you can be sure I am not some apologist for criminal behavior. I just refuse to look at Brown’s abusive streak any different from non-famous men with major temper problems. Folks here could have easily written blogs about black celebrities that sabotage their careers. To me that would have been more fitting for this site (media + image). Instead you chose to make this singularly about black women’s ‘special” suffering of domestic abuse. Forgive me if I don’t toe the company line and think that black women or women of color’s situation are more unique when it comes to this issue.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 9:44 pm ¶

61. A.D. Nix wrote:

    Whenever I hear the “don’t air dirty laundry” argument I wonder how many loads that person has helped wash. But that presupposes actual concern for the issues affecting women of color in the first place. Typically not much of that there.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 10:21 pm ¶

62. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @hibbs –

    Let me ask, how long have you been moderating this site? Because I’ve been doing so for almost a year, Carmen was doing this for three or so years before me, and we’ve both had countless discussions end up in the hole because MOC start getting defensive. See the last Chris Brown and Rihanna thread. See any posts on dating, in general. See Jenn’s blog, Reappropriate, where certain MOC like to insist that Jenn’s already voted with her vagina in terms of racial solidarity. Check out what the women said above. And check out how many modifications we made to our comments policy before you start telling me how to run shit.

    And like I said to another male commenter on another thread: If it isn’t about you, don’t make it about you. If you aren’t doing what I called out then the warning was not for you.

    If a white female celebrity gets beat up by a white male celebrity I can be almost certain that I won’t read anything about white women and the domestic violence white men inflict upon them.

    Nope. We talk about race and pop culture here so when shit started popping up about Rihanna being “a crazy island bitch” and and “angry black woman” (and fellow blogger Afrobella being called a “Trini bitch” for having the nerve to discuss the issues) and Chris Brown being held up as “one more example of hip-hop culture” (which I haven’t had a chance to blog yet, but I will) and the reaction difference between white sites and black sites, combined with the fact that for some reason, all of society’s ills tend to rock our communities disproportionately, it means we are going to cover it.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 10:52 pm ¶

63. Liz L wrote:

    It’s already been addressed, but I did want to pipe up and say that I was very uncomfortable with the several posts that associated domestic abuse with low-income women. While it’s true that class (like any other system of privilege) will mediate how someone lives through abuse and whether or not help is available, domestic abuse is a terrifyingly universal problem. Pretending it isn’t patholigizes low-income women’s choices and lives on the one hand and silences the very difficult (and often fatal) experiences middle class women have with abuse.

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 11:43 pm ¶

64. Shelby wrote:

    Hibbs4Prez said: “Here’s my take. As a black man I feel no need to defend Chris Brown. I don’t care about him at all. I also care even less about Rhianna. That being said it was inexcusable what Chris did to her. And their hooking back up? Even more stupid. For both parties, but especially for her.”

    But especially for her? Why? I keep seeing this sentiment everywhere. I just saw it on Jack and Jill Politics. WHY do we blame Rhianna more?!! Why doesn’t anyone ask WHY women stay with abusive men? How come no one ever wants to hear that…
    1. The most dangerous time in a DV relationship is when the victim tries to leave. Why do some women stay? Because they’d
    rather wait and figure shit out than get killed.

    2. Part of the reason it’s so deadly to leave is because police won’t protect you. Especially WOC. You can get a restraining order but they’re hardly effective.

    3. If a woc DOES go to the police her community might isolate her …Or call her a race traitor… Or an angry black woman…Or a crazy island bitch…or…

    4. The abuser often threatens to harm themselves or commit suicide in order to get the victim to stay.

    5. It’s a fucking complicated as HELL situation and no one has the right to “blame” any victim for choosing to do whatever the FUCK they choose to do to protect themselves and their sanity.

    Sorry for the language, but Jesus effing Christ I am so sick of everyone shifting the blame from the abuser onto the victim!

    Posted 02 Mar 2009 at 11:45 pm ¶

65. gogojojo wrote:

    wow. i had to take a step back from the internet as all this (about CB/R and domestic violence in communities of color) was pissing me off. ummm i’m glad to come back to this post and see some positive discussion going on (though there is always at least one…) ANYWAY

    @Just A Thought “The majority of women that I knew who called themselves “strong black women” attacked other women, viewed themselves as only complete if they had a black man, and suffered some kind of abuse in relationships.”

    I co-sign all of this. It’s one of my frustrations with trying to organize with Black women (I’m still doing it but it gets me every time.) I often have to step back from myself and ask if I am making the decisions that I am making and or sizing up a sister because of my beliefs about what a SBW should or would do.

    @moshoeshoe thanks for clarifying your point. i still disagree with your characterization of abuse as an issue that is some how more prevalent with low-income WOC is highly problematic because of the way it buys into sociological pathologizing of poverty. Also being poor does not = uneducated; being not having a formal education=being unaware of/or unread in issues of domestic abuse. Many of the women I know who are involved in the DV activism are/were poor women who self-educated themselves on the issue. Also more goes into someone’s earning capacity than their education status, i.e. other forms of social capital like race, gender, language, etc.

    Another problem I feel with your argument is that it doesn’t seem to take into account abuse in middle class, educated America. Going from the extremes of talking about “Push-esque” fictional characters to celebrities doesn’t leave much room for real situations. I think that is why you said that each case is individual but that seems incongruent with your argument that all abuse either fits an economic or psychological model.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 12:47 am ¶

66. gogojojo wrote:

    @shelby “I just saw it on Jack and Jill Politics” I just don’t understand what is happening on that thread. It’s one of the reasons I had to take a break from the internet. By the time I got started reading the thread I was so disheartened that I didn’t want to comment because I felt like there would be no real point.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 12:49 am ¶

67. coloredhoney wrote:

    MDM wrote:”I have come to the conclusion that since Black women do not support each other and of course Black men are out for their own interests as they step on the Black women who many are the walking dead, waiting for validation, love and acceptance that will never be adequate enough.–that I think many of us have no choice but to walk alone. Why is it Black women are often alone, buying houses alone, toiling in silence without respite.”

    i do find many black women forging bonds of love and support for one another. i find many black women buying houses alone because they worked hard to do so and are proud of it. i find many people in this world, especially right now, to be the walking dead. multiple wars in physical and emotional forms have taken over the crux of cultural language. how can people survive in a healthy mind state when war is the primary topic of conversation? men are rarely encouraged to express anything of authentic soul value when it comes to their feelings. black men and i would make a broad assumption that other moc suffer this as well, are even more discouraged to do so. what is beautiful about living in this current time besides the obvious intimacy of the obamas, familial and romantic, is that there is so much information, so much to read about black people negotiating intimate relationships. so much to witness, and so much that is not kept quiet anymore, even if what is said isn’t always agreed with. i was in a lovely relationship with a former life partner and father to my son. he is black. the relationship took a steep negative spiral to what seemed like a point of no return to hell. today we are no longer together, but we are thoughtful co-parents and friends. both of our families and friends came together with their traditional old school and progressive schools of knowledge and compassion to help us move beyond hurting and despising each other to where we are now, more healed and dimensional than we ever were in the decade we spent together. that being said i find myself single and wanting a partner. i am often frustrated at the men i meet black and otherwise because of the antiquated expectations haloing around their heads about who women should be as feminine partners. i endure spates of loneliness that almost motivate me to choose situations that are less than my core expectations. i watch my girlfriends do it all the time. and i purse my lips in surface judgement, yet, i get it. i would probably do the same thing if i didn’t have a child. while i don’t need a man’s validation, i do want the kind of intimate affection that comes with a romantic relationship. i believe it’s an important part of living as a full human being. and the wait is sometimes tough. some books i love on the subject: black sexual politics by patricia hill-collins, sometimes rhythm, sometimes blues,- a lovely book of essays whose author unfortunately slips my mind at the moment, longing to tell by tricia rose, and the old school but lovely, sisters of the yam by bell hooks. this thread is fabulous. thank you latoya! keep rockin! peace.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 12:55 am ¶

68. Pheagan wrote:

    I swear, I get more out of the comments here than any other website I go to. You ladies are awesome.

    lunanoir: “One common thread I noticed was that some of the men on the board valued a man’s feelings over a woman’s physical well-being. For example, a man whose feelings are hurt when a woman turns him down vs. a woman who has to deal w/ the daily gauntlet of unwanted rude comments and gestures that may turn violent.”

    I remember reading that gift of fear book and there’s this thing the author says that’s something like: a man’s greatest fear is being laughed at by a woman. A woman’s greatest fear is getting killed by a man. And that just struck me down to the bone with how true it is.

    Kavita: The last line of that poem is going to stick with me too, now. Hopefully deeper.

    Sobia: “It feels like if we talk about it *someone* will inevitably jump on it as “proof” of the stereotypes–” You’ve totally and completely put into words what has been a nascent thought in mine– because I’m white, I don’t understand what it’s like to truly be operating at the intersection of gender and race issues, I’ve never had to navigate or choose or sacrifice my gender issues for the sake of my race or vice versa. But even I have avoided discussing woman issues with muslim friends– I’ve listened when it came up, but I don’t even feel comfortable asking questions, because I feel like I’m buying into stereotypes by doing this.

    @ Hibbs4Prez– I hear you on the level of not wanting to make abuse about race. But I don’t think Latoya is saying spousal abuse should be made into a race thing. I think what she’s saying is, when spousal abuse occurs within a minority that is oppressed, that either 1) people anticipate it’s going to be about race, and so they start to minimize the real damage done to the woman in order to deflect a blow to the race or 2) people make it about race and make the woman and the man and all the people who are witnesses to it choose between race and gender. I think she’s also saying that, spousal abuse aside, very often women of color feel as though, or are made to feel as though, they have to sacrifice the fight for their gender in order to fight for their race/culture.

    And, having been on the receiving end of some seriously defensive dudes here, I’m pretty grateful for the Latoya asking the dudes to shush up. It’s within context, not like a general thing.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 5:21 am ¶

69. Ayo wrote:

    Through the discourse in this thread I’ve noticed a lot of generalizations being tossed about by a lot of women, and some of the men here.

    I think this problem is a helluva lot more nuanced than: “we keep quiet for black men because we don’t want them to be perceived as animalistic – we don’t want to encourage racism.” and “black women sleep around, and are responsible for high school drop out rates, and gang violence.”

    This isn’t just a simplistic rejoinder from a defensive MOC it’s just I find the premises of a lot of these observations facile and even embarrassing.
    I disagree with voices like truthbetold and I disagree with a lot of the WOC in here.

    The silencing process that happens with domestic abuse in communities of colour is something that I see reinforced by men and women. I think it would be far more sensible to look at the insularity of communities and the problems that arise there when this issue pops up.

    With the black community, to be honest I see a firmer link here between the church, its antiquated notions of gender roles and the depressing end point for a lot of WOC who have to suffer their burdens; I do not see a link between domestic abuse and MOC being complicit with racist sexism (oppressing black women in solidarity with white men). It’s just good ol sexism.
    These problems affect the white community too but (how do I put this) the portion of white America that is less swayed by religion is acknowledged. White women are still subject to white patriarchy but steps forward are being made.
    Nowadays In film and tv we constantly see white families, comedians, political commentators who don’t have religion as their immediate moral backbone.
    There are obviously black counterparts out there but we’ve got no visibility.

    When my mother did take me to Nigerian churches and general black churches a woman’s inferior position was constantly conveyed through men of the church and women.
    These problems appear far more pronounced with us because of how (sadly) ingrained religion is in the black community.
    If you’re learning your moral lessons from a patriarchal ideology which you’ve absorbed and (foolishly) interwoven with your sense of identity; so that the idea of an atheistic black person just doesn’t make sense to you, how on earth do you expect your community not to have an antiquated view on gender roles? And not find this status quo inherently natural because of it being so deeply embedded in “blackness”.

    Until we denounce this mental shackle we’ll have this circle repeating itself over and over. Sadly I don’t see this happening as fast as so-called “Post-racial” America.

    Of less relevance is all this subtle venting from WOC in this thread irritated by MOC with white women. How on earth does a black man marrying a white woman endear him to the white patriarchy when white patriarchy deems that paring the most offensive? That paring could get a dude killed.

    Like most of you I”m not backing a statement like that up with anything other than my notion of common sense.

    Follow the crumbs and it’ll lead you back to religion.

    my 2 cents

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 6:37 am ¶

70. Celeste wrote:

    @Ayo: I’m not sure it all leads back to religion but I think a lot of it does. When I move to a new area it’s always hard for me to find a black church that has all the cultural trappings that I want without any homophobia or “submission brings freedom” ideas being bandied about.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 9:25 am ¶

71. Ron wrote:

    Black men see abuse of black women as shameful. More importantly, I think the majority of black men would never condone a black woman accepting abuse to show her racial solidarity.

    Many black men grew up seeing their mother’s abused and shriek at abuse of women. It is nothing more vulgar than seeing a woman bruised and bloodied by a man.

    However, I can see where some black women are misguided about protecting their abuser – stockholm syndrome or identifying with their abuser.

    There are organizations that black men belong to that deal with abuse of black women that need be more prominently highlighted to increase their profile.

    We can use this situation between Rhianna and Chris Brown to develop a national network to educate people within our community about domestic violence. We should have community forums discussing this issue.

    Unfortunately, the abuse of black women is an extension of the way we resolve conflicts in our community. The abuser seems to want to control the woman at all costs.

    We as black men should realize if we have to resort to violence then maybe we are not ready for a relationship with a woman. We have to be more mature in our relationships.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 11:14 am ¶

72. Penni Brown wrote:

    @Hibbs4Prez

    You wrote, “If a white female celebrity gets beat up by a white male celebrity I can be almost certain that I won’t read anything about white women and the domestic violence white men inflict upon them. It would strictly be about the physical abuse of women by men.”

    You mentioned that you’ve been following this site for a while right? Well then you’d know that when a white abuse situation is reported by the white media , it’s not a ‘race’ thing because their race is the ’standard’. They have the LUXERY of just being a man and a woman in a horrible situation.

    If you came to this site often, you would have seen this discussion MANY times. That is like Racialicious 101 dude!

    I hope I’m around to see the day when MOC hear the struggle of WOC against sexism and acknowledge that they – the men – have some work to do. Sure, one man in particular isn’t to blame for the whole epidemic. But, just like with any other priveledge, acknowledge that male privys DO exist

    Acknowledge that the poor selection of quality men to date and marry left your mom single with a son to raise and…

    because you had no examples – that you never learned how to treat a woman with respect or what it means to really be a man.

    Get angry enough with your missing fathers to hold your brothers accountable to their wives and babymama’s.

    Stop standing by silently when you see your homeboy disrespecting a young lady at the club…or on the street.

    It’s not enough for YOU to not be a sexist. You have to be ANTI sexist.

    You have to make sure that systems and social accountability are in place to protect your mothers, wives, sisters and daughters of color.

    …because protecting them will protect YOUR legacy.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 11:50 am ¶

73. Winn wrote:

    @ Hibbs4Prez,

    I hear you on some of your concerns about how the mainstream media has addressed the Chris Brown/Rihanna situation. But that has no bearing on what Racialicious is trying to do by focusing discussion on this topic. And I’m sure I don’t need to tell you that so many previous discussions on this site involving gendered violence and sexism have devolved into great ugliness and hostility. Thus, Latoya’s request that male contributors take a step back and allow WOC a safe space to express themselves, just for a minute. Was it really that much of an affront to you to be asked to be quiet and open your eyes and ears, just this once? Particularly to hear voices that are often silenced in the larger culture due to the intersectionality of racism and sexism that is persistently with us? And I’m positive I don’t have to explain that examining the cultural and social factors that may be impacting black women’s vulnerability to intimate partner violence and how a variety of pressures both within and outside the community have stymied education, awareness and discussion of this topic specifically, and the larger one of sexism in general, is not the same thing as insinuating that such violence is unique to or inherent in the black community.

    I would like to think that you don’t really subscribe to the simplistic view that “abuse is abuse”. Ultimately, perhaps that’s true, but as the smart and eloquent women here have pointed out, other factors, including family history, poverty, religious upbringing, lack of education, lack of economic options, cultural memes tied to themes of racial solidarity, distorted ideas about what constitutes independence and strength among women of color, and a very understandable desire to minimize the racist stereotypes the larger culture holds about our community, may all impact how that abuse is addressed, internalized, rejected, fought against, or accepted, and why entrenched patterns develop in which these abusive relationships are replicated over time.

    Frankly, your response is probably part of the community discourse that prompted Latoya to ask the question in the first place. You dismiss the need for discussion by presenting a false premise, that we are suggesting that black women’s suffering is “special” and “unique” from other women’s. That is by no means what has been done here, and if you are seriously going to suggest that the larger media which you seem so concerned about has given legitimate voice to women of color the same way it has white women who have been victimized, that they have done this without pathologizing the black community, and that black women haven’t internalized messages from the media as well as their families, churches and communities that we need to keep “dirty laundry’ about abuse to ourselves because “black men have it hard enough”, you’re naive or deluded or both.

    I am a therapist who has worked with domestic violence victims for years, black and white, of various economic strata. You would not believe how many of them said they were shocked that this happened to black women too, because black women are “strong” and “wouldn’t put up with the shit white women put up with”. White, black, Latina and Asian women all repeated this idea, with varying degrees of amazement that black women are indeed victimized, and in fact appear to be at greater risk of victimization, for a variety of reasons including some of the ones discussed here. You know, on second thought, I take back what I said earlier. Black female victimization IS unique. If you check your dictionary, you’ll see that there is more than one definition of that word. I’ll leave it to you to figure out which one I mean.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 3:27 pm ¶

74. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ Winn
    You would not believe how many of them said they were shocked that this happened to black women too, because black women are “strong” and “wouldn’t put up with the shit white women put up with”. White, black, Latina and Asian women all repeated this idea, with varying degrees of amazement that black women are indeed victimized, and in fact appear to be at greater risk of victimization, for a variety of reasons including some of the ones discussed here.

    I know this came up a bit during the Rihanna discussion but looks like the idea of The SBW plays into both how black women who are the victims of domestic abuse (or the victims of anything) are viewed and how we may view ourselves. And not really for the better.

    How can you be magically, naturally immune or boldly resistant to some of the bullshitiest bullshit and be its victim? It’s like the bar keeps moving for what constitutes abuse so the image of The SBW can stand unchallenged. No Strong Black Woman would stand for abuse, so X can’t really be abuse. And whatever X is, I’m sure she can manage it because she’s a Strong Black Woman.

    That was an eloquent and slightly shocking reminder.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶

75. Kepler wrote:

    As usual, the comments have been amazingly insightful and I have nothing to add on. However, I know this is nitpicking and slightly off-topic, but the notion that Rihanna is only now getting national attention due to the black-on-black angle is misleading. Rihanna has been embraced by the mainstream media/tabloids long before now. Doesn’t anyone remember how ubiquitous “Umbrella” was a couple of years ago? She may not have dominated coverage for a similar amount of time, but bad news usually gets more coverage than good news (ignoring of course the horror associated with these events). Especially when you factor in how little coverage any black woman who is not Beyonce gets.

    Rihanna daily has some of the covers she’s been on: http://rihannadaily.com/category/magazine-covers/
    *”allegedly” used for legal purposes.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 5:15 pm ¶

76. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Kepler –

    We actually discussed that in the comments to the other thread on this. Essentially some of the gap in reactions can be due to the two’s respective images in the eye of the MSM. I had asked if it would have been the same reaction if someone like Remy Ma or Megan Good was the subject.

    Someone else in the comments pointed out how it would have been completely different if it was CB and someone who wasn’t famous which is also another dynamic.

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 5:27 pm ¶

77. Zahra wrote:

    @Shelby: THANK YOU

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 5:41 pm ¶

78. vodalus wrote:

    The book industry for years couldn’t get enough of all the novels that dealt with the poor, downtrodden black women suffering at the hands of vicious, beast-like black men. Particularly when the books were written by black women. And books written by black women in which black male characters were presented as ideal, kind hearted love interests for the female characters? Those were much more rare. Of course the reverse existed for books by white women. It didn’t matter that white females dealt with sexist behavior and violence from their spouses and lovers too. White men were not going to be demonized by female authors. The publishing industry and mainstream America would never accept that.

    Somebody’s never read a romance novel; those abused white women derive great sexual satisfaction from capitulating to their abuser. It’s a classic feminist complaint about the genre.

    That said, I’d like to focus on the bit about poor, downtrodden black women and their bestial partners. That particular trope doesn’t just play into the negative stereotypes about black men; it also sets up a negative stereotype that a black heroine is necessarily a martyr to “Her Man”. These books perpetuate the mindset that a “Real Black Woman” must endure hardship, violence and neglect in order for her experience to matter. It feeds directly into the discussed mindset of enduring violence out of loyalty to one’s people.

    I can definitely see how that genre of book doesn’t help the image of black men, but its important to recognize that it also damages the self-perceptions of its targeted black female audience.

    (Please speak up to correct me if this is a fallacious understanding.)

    Posted 03 Mar 2009 at 5:42 pm ¶

79. timarasa wrote:

    i just have 4 words: the dunbar village assaults

    Posted 04 Mar 2009 at 2:18 pm ¶

80. Mendez Berry wrote:

    I’m probably too late to this conversation, but wanted to add something on class:

    There is a correlation between rates of relationship violence and economic factors. http://dvinstitute.org/press/factsheet.html Yes, it affects everybody to varying degrees (BTW: Native Americans have by far the highest rate of DV) , but the numbers are pretty clear.

    I think it’s much more complicated than educated vs. not. A lack of space is a huge precipitating factor in household conflict and violence. Also: stress, financial stress, unemployment, lack of mental health care, lack of health care. For Latinos and many other immigrant groups, you have language and cultural barriers to getting help that decrease with education.

    Basically, I think it’s important to put this issue in a broader economic and social context instead of demonizing women who “allow” themselves to be in those situations. Personal experience: when you’re stressed out and broke, it’s a lot harder to deal with conflict constructively. And maybe poverty is another form of domestic violence.

    Useful stats from the Insitute on Domestic Violence in the African American Community: http://dvinstitute.org/press/factsheet.html

    Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 10:02 am ¶

81. Fiqah wrote:

    @Mendez Berry: Without blowing your web cover, if you are who I think you are (legendary VIBE article) pretty-please contact me at my blahg. I have kinda been looking for you.

    Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 10:43 am ¶

82. Mendez Berry wrote:

    Fiqah: The same. But i don’t see a way to e-mail you on your blog?

    Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 12:58 pm ¶

83. Fiqah wrote:

    @Mendez Berry: Ah, dangit! Just remembered email link is disabled. Please post a comment, and thank you SO much for responding to this very “Chance Encounters” Craig’s List-y approach.

    Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 1:23 pm ¶

84. Just Had 2 Say This wrote:

    There are so many insightful comments here that I couldn’t acknowledge them all, but there is one that, though off the topic, resonated with me.

    March3209, your comment (#58) really struck me because the lyrics to “Single Ladies” truly bug me. Isn’t, “If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it,” a meronym? She’s using a body part–her vagina–to represent the whole–herself. That’s so creepy coming from a woman, besides the fact that she’s totally commodifying her sexual relationship with the fictitious ex by saying, “If you liked having sex with with me you should’ve secured your exclusive sexual rights to me by marrying me.”

    Posted 11 Mar 2009 at 1:39 am ¶

85. William Maclean wrote:

    As a Anglo/male, now disabled due to seisures, but formerly a professor of Educational Leadership/Administration in PA…I concur with many of the sentiments presented above regarding the inequites daily faced by women and minorities. I have had had unearned priviliges due to my ’skin’ color, not because of my merit. I have not had to endure the hardships many of you are or have have endured though I was physically and sexually molested when I was a child, leaving be scared and impacted impacted for life. I have had ’shit’ thrown my way and have to duck it, avoiding its contamination effects. I can only say to my under-represented colleagues in socieity and in the academy, persever, persever, persever. You are woth impacting our society with your contributions of intellect, passion, vision, diversity and ways of thinking that run contrary to the normative thinking of the current power structures of the predominate Anglo/male dominate culture in Academia, Congress, the Federal government and society as as whole. Currently I am finishing up my dissertation on the erceptions of under represented faculty members [e.g. female, minority including two minority graduate students] as they attend a professional conference in the field of Educational Leadership/Administration. I have successfully completed by D-1 defense and I am poised this fall to try and complete my D-2 portion for the aquistion of that terminal degree called a Ph.D. I am 60 years old, I am a little scared but hopeful. Thanks for listening to me.

    Posted 22 Sep 2009 at 11:55 pm ¶