What Does Tyler Perry Really Want From His Audience?

by Guest Contributor Nichole, originally published at PostBourgie

Tyler Perry is set to release a film version of his play, Madea Goes to Jail, which I happened to watch with my family back home in Nashville over the Christmas holiday. TP flicks are best enjoyed as a community, because as you’re responding to your mother’s giggles about Madea’s swinging bosom, you can forget about what appears to be his real message, lurking beneath all that homespun wisdom.

Almost.

(Spoilers ahead.)

In Madea Goes to Jail, Sonny, Madea’s nephew, his wife Vanessa, and their infant son, live with the outspoken matriarch. Vanessa is in graduate school, and Sonny works hard at the local jail, pulling extra hours to finance her education. The two have a deal that once she earns her degree, it will be his turn to go back to school. But it soon becomes clear that Vanessa is an ill-mannered, disrespectful, spoiled, ungrateful bitch who doesn’t want to do the right thing by catering to her husband out of gratitude for his hard work and support. She loudly complains about taking care of the baby or performing any other domestic chore, stressing the need to complete her graduate study so she can make something out of herself. She’s so out of pocket that the busybody next door neighbor, Ella, admittedly manless, irons Sonny’s work shirt for Vanessa, as she sings about how to take care of a man and keep him happy.

Of course, Sonny loves Vanessa’s dirty underwear, despite rumors of her sexual past. He’s willing to overlook her thankless behavior, in part, because she’s beautiful and that’s what good husbands do. We see more of Sonny’s good heart once he goes to work to help Madea get out of jail. He doesn’t like confrontation; he just wants to do his job and be properly compensated for it. At the jail, we meet Wanda, an old high school friend who is now a successful prosecutor for Child and Family Services. Wanda is quietly attractive, saved, and holding a serious torch for Sonny, who either doesn’t recognize it or doesn’t acknowledge it, setting his role as Good Married Guy firmly in place.

Still, things continue smoothly until we learn that his boss and good friend, Nate, is having an affair with Vanessa. As a result of this infidelity, the child’s life is put in danger, and Vanessa lands in jail, seemingly without remorse for her part in the situation. The child needs a blood transfusion to live, which is when we discover that Sonny is not the father. And neither is Nate. Poor, poor Sonny. Overworked, underpaid, underappreciated, and now given the ultimate insult to a good Black man– he’s been taking care of a child not his own! How much more sympathy can we the audience have for him? And what is more natural than for him to turn to Wanda, the less obviously beautiful, already accomplished, spiritually grounded, and — did I mention? — celibate friend, who’s been secretly pining away, waiting for him to notice her.

To be fair, it appears that the film for Madea Goes to Jail will be almost completely different from the play. However, I probably won’t see it, unless my aunt is playing the bootleg version in her nail shop the next time I go home. Finding love through salvation doesn’t sit well with me, and the possible colorism in effect (perfect, fair-skinned fiancee vs. pitiful, dark brown prostitute) also sets my teeth on edge. An internet chum, in a discussion board debate surrounding TP and T.D. Jakes, recently claimed that all Tyler Perry wants you to do is go to church. I’m not so sure.

There is little to dispute that TP’s target audience is Black women, so let’s look at the message we’ve received so far from the play. A beautiful, ambitious driven woman is a promiscuous, shrill bitch and a danger to the home. A good woman doesn’t turn heads with her beauty, is soft-spoken, religious, and will wait- sexually and emotionally- for the right man to come along. We see this play out as well in the movie version of Tyler Perry’s Why Did I Get Married?

Angela, the successful entrepreneur, drinks, is unruly, and loudly and frequently emasculates her somewhat inept husband Marcus, thereby leaving little sympathy for her during his constant forays outside of the marriage. It is only when he finally snaps, calling her out on her behavior (i.e. starts acting like a man) that she becomes soft-spoken and even takes on the womanly responsibility of cooking him a meal. Patricia has a patient, good husband in Gavin, a great career that reaches high levels of professional praise, but her busy, perfect schedule has a tragic affect on her ability to be a parent. Diane, a powerhouse attorney glued to her Blackberry and laptop, neglects her patient, good husband Terry (played by TP), is ambivalent about her relationship as a mother and, without telling her husband, has made a major decision about her body that directly affects his dreams about family. These professionally successful women just don’t know how to make a home! And finally, we have Sheila, whose beauty must be qualified with the phrase “Plus-Sized,” soft-spoken, devout, unemployed, willing to take on the emotional and mental abuse of her brazenly unfaithful husband Mike, until her friends force her to accept the truth. Sheila, once dependent on Mike, then must rely on Sherriff Troy, who gets her a job, helps rescue her from being overweight, and gives her the confidence she needs to realize he’s the man she’s been praying for.

I suppose all that would have churches swelling to capacity because in the end, the gentle, pious, overlooked woman gets her man and the career-oriented, no-nonsense, attractive woman must make sacrifices, lest she end up in jail — or worse — childless.

So getting “us” into church is not his only objective. TP wants to teach women how to have successful relationships by making sure their male partners are satisfied. His morality plays, on stage and film, scold women: Be quiet, in appearance and voice. Don’t try to be more than what you are. Serious ambition is a danger to the family. Be grateful for “good enough.” Wait for the right man to notice you. Don’t bring attention to yourself. Be appropriately thankful when a man takes care of you.

For some, it’s easier to swallow these tidbits of wisdom with humor and the comforting memories of an outspoken matriarch. TP disguises his lessons as carefully as he disguises himself in floral prints and exaggerated twang, but sometimes, the man peeks out from the caricature, and I wonder how long it will be before he has removed the mask completely.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. What Does Tyler Perry Really Want? « The Blog and the Bullet on 21 Jan 2009 at 8:50 pm

    [...] plays and movies but I’ve always felt the same as Nichole here about his portrayal of women, which is not all that great: There is little to dispute that [Tyler Perry's] target audience is Black women, so let’s look at [...]

  2. What Does Tyler Perry Really Want? « The Mustard Seed on 21 Jan 2009 at 8:54 pm

    [...] plays and movies but I’ve always felt the same as Nichole here about his portrayal of women, which is not all that great: There is little to dispute that [Tyler Perry's] target audience is Black women, so let’s look at [...]

  3. More on Tyler Perry’s Morality. « PostBourgie on 22 Jan 2009 at 7:00 pm

    [...] Two comments on Nichole’s post on the moral themes  in Tyler Perry’s movies, which was crossposted over on Racialicious, are worth repeating [...]

Comments

  1. politicallyincorrect wrote:

    TP needs to keep his views to himself. Who the hell would take advice from a single man who has never been married. (Not to mention the kind of Marriage TP really wants is only legal in Canada and Massachusetts)

  2. jen* wrote:

    I agree that TP’s message is totally and unequivocally anti-feminist.

    This brings me to a personal issue that I have. I tend to enjoy TP movies. In fact, I tend to enjoy some entertainment that is sexist, racist, homophobic, and ablist. Now sometimes, I’m just straight-up offended.

    But sometimes, I’m laughing. Sometimes, I come away thinking, ‘is it ok that I laughed, since I know that’s not how things are really supposed to be?’

    Am I just a bad person, who professes to believe in equality, but finds humor in the wrong places? I don’t know.

    I definitely believe that there is plenty that can be funny without subjugating one group of already-oppressed people. But sometimes, I still laugh.

  3. ladymaati wrote:

    “So getting “us” into church is not his only objective. TP wants to teach women how to have successful relationships by making sure their male partners are satisfied. His morality plays, on stage and film, scold women: Be quiet, in appearance and voice. Don’t try to be more than what you are. Serious ambition is a danger to the family. Be grateful for “good enough.” Wait for the right man to notice you. Don’t bring attention to yourself. Be appropriately thankful when a man takes care of you.” Nichole

    THANK YOU THANK YOU THANKYOU!!!! for posting this. I was just having a discussion with some friends last night about men, women & movies/books such as TP & their effect on PoC. I never enjoy those types of movies/books & you just summed up why.

  4. hvls wrote:

    I’ve only seen part of Diary of a Mad Black Woman, and I’ve vowed to NEVER watch anything that TP makes again. First, at best he is snicker funny. Nothing in that movie made me want to laugh out loud, or laugh period. Second, the commercials for his TBS shows make me want to through something at the screen.

  5. Monie wrote:

    Tyler Perry is a misogynistic idiot. I am so sick of this guy dressing up and mocking Black women.

    His women characters are hideous. On his TV show House of Payne one of the main characters, a Black woman, is of all things a crackhead. What? This is supposed to be a sitcom. What the heck is funny about that?

    The other women on the show aren’t treated much better. They are basically a bunch of dysfunctional idiots and stereotypes.

    It’s amazing to me that Black women are the biggest fans of his work. Are we so used to being made into stereotypes that now we are willing to support them?

    It’s clear to me that Tyler Perry hates Black women. Maybe he should have been a rapper, he would surely fit in with them.

    Oh and I also find it ironic and amazing that one of the running themes of Perry’s sitcom are homophobic jokes. The reason I think this is because every time I see Tyler Perry my gaydar goes off like crazy. If all those little old church ladies that love Tyler only knew.

    I HATE Tyler Perry so much!

    And apparently he has another sitcom scheduled to go on the air.

  6. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @All – Reminder, Tyler Perry’s sexual orientation doesn’t have much to do with what we are discussing. Let’s critique his body of work, not his personal business.

    @Jen* – M. Dot, a while back, posted on liking Mobb Deep and being able to relate to (and find amusing) the dysfunction described. I feel like that was an apt summary of why we find things problematic but still enjoy them. Tyler Perry’s movies are not my cup of tea, but I love Katt Williams comedy – which is just as bad. So, I think we all make these kinds of trade offs for entertainment. But I’ll elaborate on that more when I get back from the gym.

    @all –

    I am also not a fan of Tyler Perry’s work. I admire his hustle and what he has built, so in a strictly business sense, I applaud him.

    I am also not a participant in black church culture, so I do not seek out this kind of entertainment. (My boyfriend, however, is heavily invested and is a big fan of TP).

    Having watched/overheard most of TP’s movies, I have the following issues:

    1. I hate the good woman/bad woman dichotomy illustrated in Nichole’s piece. This is probably because I am a woman who likes working and enjoys being successful.

    2. While I can understand why Tyler Perry structures his movies around the hard working blue collar black man (admittedly a group that doesn’t get much love or respect in pop culture) I hate how he has to demonize the white collar female counterparts to prove that point.

    3. There have been too many smack-a-bitch moments in TP movies for me to ever be ok with them. In Diary, girl gets her ass beat by her Husband, goes back to him anyway. Obviously, he promised not to hit her again, but we all know how that goes down. And in the Family That Preys, a woman also gets cracked across the face. My boyfriend explained to me the circumstances of what happened when I happened to glance over at the screen, but I don’t think a “good man” of any race would just be cracking women when they get upset. There doesn’t seem to be an acknowledgment that DV isn’t something you just hope goes away.

  7. Monie wrote:

    Latoya,

    I made mention of it because I find it so ironic that he makes his money primarily from church going folk who if they were aware of ‘his personal business’ would turn on him and because of the homophobic themes of his sitcom.

  8. Jamerican Muslimah wrote:

    You have given me a lot to think about. I admit to feeling conflicted about many a scene in TP’s plays and in the movie versions. There are so many layers…I guess I’m asking myself the same question as jen. Time for some soul searching…

  9. jen* wrote:

    @Latoya – Yeah, see, I can’t stand Katt Williams. So – we understand each other.

    I think I’ll have to sit down for a moment and think about why I can enjoy something that I don’t actually agree with. I don’t know whether that’s positive or negative, either.

    Certainly, I don’t want to find humor in another’s pain, and yet – there is some slapstick that I enjoy, which is exactly that.

    This will probably end up a post of my own….

    [ps - was M.Dot's post here or somewhere else?]

  10. Kavita wrote:

    I used to be a TP fan because honestly, they do make me laugh. But I just saw Meet the Browns and it was the last straw. I am so sick of the “shut your legs and wait for a good man” message. In addition to cautioning us not to be overly ambitious, TP seems to believe that WOC are too promiscious and if we would all just stop f-ing around, we’d meet Prince Charming. I’m over the whole modern Black Cindarella theme.

  11. Renee wrote:

    First Tyler like many other black men, needs to take off the dress. I am tired of seeing black men pay homage to black women by depicting us as ridiculous caricatures. His message of salvation, patience and docility is in total sync with his Media character. He does not appreciate womanhood in all of its beauty and its flaws instead he constructs these cardboard characters devoid of the multiplicity of human experience and expects us to not only identify with them but want to become them.

  12. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Jen –

    M. Dot’s post was here:

    http://www.racialicious.com/2008/05/08/hip-hop-patriarchy-my-struggle-with-mobb-deep/

    Also, I feel like people can still enjoy something that they find problematic – my main thing is to be able to critique these things, to understand why they are wrong. I generally enjoy Harold and Kumar movies though they are heavily sexist.

    My issue is never with the presence of objectionable material but the fact this material doesn’t have a balanced counterpart. If movies with a feminist slant were made at the same rate as movies with a sexist slant, I wouldn’t be worried about it. But that’s not how things happen.

  13. Jess wrote:

    @jen*/Jamerican

    I wouldn’t worry about what you find funny. I mean, it isn’t one of those things you can rationalize. You just can’t. You aren’t a bad person (or a good one) for it.

    i find South Park funny. I think Family Guy is sometimes funny, sometimes a miss. I haven’t watched the Simpsons much lately and don’t think it’s aged all that well but who knows? I thought it was hi-larious in college (ca. 1990). My wife thinks it’s all terrible.

    I find Richard Pryor funny, but Chris Rock I have mixed feelings about. Eddie Murphy — well, he went off the rails sometime in 1995, IMO. (I mean, Norbit? Aaaarrgh).

    Can I put into words why? I dunno, it would be hard, because the racially-themed stuff Rock and Pryor do has a lot of similarities. Maybe it’s generational. (?)

    Monty Python? Yup. Friends? No. (I am evidently one of five people in America who couldn’t watch either Friends or Seinfeld and laugh). Woody Allen? Sleeper is still a hoot and I’ve seen it like 20 times.

    TP? I can’t watch his stuff for more than a few minutes. I’m checking my watch. Now, I am not black, maybe it’s funnier if you are. But for me, big yawn.

    I can’t explain any of it. If you were to ask me what makes me laugh, I am not sure I could tell you, except after the fact, and even then it would be hard to put into words.

    Sorry to ramble on this, but I see no reason for anybody to apologize for what they find funny, because you can’t really help it. You can ask people to apologize for being insulting. But that’s a different kettle o’ fish, as it were. They aren’t the same.

    You are both good people. Really.

    :-)

  14. atlasien wrote:

    @Jen: “Certainly, I don’t want to find humor in another’s pain, and yet -”

    I’ve never seriously studied it, but Greek philosophy has a ton of relevant stuff on this question. Aristotle wondered why people love watching gruesome things depicted in a play, when they’d hate the same things happening to them in real life, and he came up with some interesting answers. There’s the basic act of imitation, which can playful and pleasurable no matter regardless of what is being imitated, and also the idea that watching painful stuff is like a safe pressure valve that lets off negative emotions and keeps them from building up.

    Some of this can be extended to slapstick, and the someone slipping on a banana peel or the equivalent. The satisfaction is visceral and pretty much universal; slapstick physical comedy translates amazingly well across different cultures.

    Overly long sidetrack… anyway, here’s an interesting link on Tyler Perry movies from a local Atlanta writer.
    Andisheh Nouraee’s diary of a confused beige man: One man’s attempt to understand Tyler Perry

  15. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @Monie& politicallyincorrect–I’m confused: has Tyler Perry announced that he was same-gender-loving man? If he did, then I’d get the irony of the homophobia in his work. If not, then I’m with Latoya–the speculation of his ‘personal business’ is off the table. And, if I’m not mistaken, a straight man can be a homophobe, too.

  16. Political Pete wrote:

    Finally.

    I think this post is dead on. . .

    Interestingly enough, I have thought about his body of work as it relates to the black male professional. He is always depicted as a cheating, money hungry, family neglecting, wife-beater (Unless of course, Tyler Plays the role himself). The only exception was probably Janet’s Husband in Why did I get married, but this has been pretty consistent with his other work. There is this message of the “angelic working class man,” which is perpetuated in plays too.

    Fortunately and unfortunately, single black women comprise a HUGE market. (I could address the black romance novels and how they are reaping the benefits too, but that shall be discussed later).

    In some respects, I am very happy that Tyler has his own publishing, he doesn’t need paramount. On the other hand, his innocent entertaining plays are now produced (global) and has more penetrating and long-term effects.

    I don’t support him anymore because he does little to negate the presumption that a brother with his career together can also have his family and ish in order. But what does Tyler care? I’m not in his target audience… My single sister is . . .

  17. Eva wrote:

    I don’t like Tyler Perry’s movies because they’re all the same to me. I don’t mind the themes, they’re just fairy tales for adults.

    What I do admire about Tyler Perry is his hustle. He realized there was an audience of church going black people that had been forgotten. Mel Gibson did the same thing. I went to see “The Passion of the Christ” at the Magic Johnson theater on 125th street, and it was the only time I’ve been there that I nearly didn’t get a seat.

    So I can’t really hate on Perry for realizing there was a forgotten audience out there. Makes me wonder why it took him to figure that out.

  18. Dan wrote:

    As a queer man, I strongly disagree with the statement that Tyler Perry’s sexual orientation shouldn’t brought into the discussion.

    The man has based his entire career on an anti-feminist/homophobic message. At this point his sexual orientation is no longer “his personal business”.

    I have no sympathy for whatever personal struggle he may or may not have with his sexuality. When you start trying to dictate your own false morality to other people without regard to how it may negatively impact their own “personal business”, you have to be called out on it in every way possible. Period.

  19. Monie wrote:

    @The Cruel Secretary

    If someone is a homophobe and in being one makes my life more difficult, why would I have any desire to respect his ‘personal business’?

    He obviously does not respect mine.

    But if everyone else is willing to ignore what is obvious and relevant, for the sake of this conversation, then I suppose I will too.

  20. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @atlasien–…actually, what you said brought a Margaret Atwood statement to mind: if I recall correctly, a interviewer asked her what she found funny. She said that if a man in a 3-piece suit slipped on a banana peel, she’d laugh. However, if a homeless man did the same thing, she wouldn’t.

  21. ieishah wrote:

    i must respectfully disagree with the cruel secretary and latoya. this entire discussion is based on what tyler perry’s trying to say, which inevitably is based on what he believes. beliefs and values, in turn, spring from the well of your total experience as a human being. i think it’s the natural course of the conversation about someone’s ‘art’ to talk about their life. it’s why your 5th grade teacher made you write about the life of an author, and how his/her experiences shaped the work. or maybe my teachers were strange.

    that aside, i once dreamt that i was singing on stage in front of hundreds of people, and all my ancestors, dead and alive, were my back up dancers. coolest dream i ever had. when i woke up, diary of a mad black woman was over. haven’t watched a tp film since.

  22. brad wrote:

    Has anyone thought about comparing Tyler Perry’s treatment of black women versus Spike Lee’s?

    I think Lee’s “She’s Gotta Have It” as one of the strongest examples of a woman’s ability to enjoy her sexuality on her own terms.

  23. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @monie/dan/ieishah –

    Look – as a *mod* I start getting jumpy when people starting throwing out someone’s sexuality and mixing it with a critique of their work. That rolls down a slippery slope real quick and then I start getting ignorant ass comments.

    If you all feel that TPs sexuality is necessary to a discussion of his work, fine. But proceed with extreme caution because *I* am the one who has to deal with people thinking a thread is safe to air out their homophobic feelings.

  24. Antonio wrote:

    I’ve only seen The Diary of a Mad Black Woman and Madea’s Family Reunion, but I never made it past the bad dialogue and thin character development to contemplate the messages of his films. One spouse is always evil and the other is a victim, a couple can never be two imperfect people trying to resolve their issues.

  25. Asada wrote:

    oh boy,
    seems a women has to go to school, take care of a man, AND be greatful for it all.

    It’s pretty stressful, since the remedy seems either: don’t get married ( esp don’t have kids) or just deal with it.

    It puts women who want to be educated in a hard place ( my own mom would complain of having to do everything: cook,clean, raise a kid and go to school).

    + please tell me I’m not the only one who cannot understand the meaning of
    emasculated?

  26. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @Monie–I think what bothers me about what your comment is the idea that his orientation is “obvious,” as if one’s sexual orientation is visible, that you can tell if a person is straight, gay, or otherwise “just by looking at” him (in Perry’s case). In essence, your statements are going into the nasty territory of stereotyping. Now, is Perry’s work homophobic and misogynist? Hell yeah, and in truckloads. But basing that observation on an orientation–especially one that he himself hasn’t spoken about–isn’t the best reasoning for the argument.

    @Dan–I have to disagree with you on this one. I don’t believe his orientation necessarily dictates his misogyny or his homophobia. Just as there are some women who can and do produce sexist, if not misogynistic, works as some men, there are some same-gender-loving people who can produce homophobic artistic work on par with some straight folks. Now, if Perry comes out of the closet, *then* we can get into the complexity of sexual orientation, internalized homophobia, and all the other attendant issues. But he has said nothing about his orientation. And having lived through the “Outing 90s”, I don’t think it’s our place to drag him in or out of a place *he* may or may not be. Along with what Latoya said @ #23, that’s why I have a serious problem with your statement.

  27. Lisa J wrote:

    I’ve only seen Tyler Perry’s films unwillingly. I was getting my hair braided and the woman who was braiding it had that on so I was sort of stuck. I paid attention off and on b/c I had a good magazine that I always read cover to cover with me, but what I saw was ridiculous. I’ll admit some parts made me laugh, more snicker but it just seemed so, so wrong on so many levels. It really killed me in Madea goes to jail the way they showed the woman in grad school as some evil harpy and even before that got really established the neighbor had to chastise her for not taking care of her man b/c she wouldn’t iron his shirts and make his lunch. WTF? He is a grown ass man who can iron his own shirts, take them to the cleaners who will charge 1.00 a shirt, or be wrinkled and he can definitely make his own lunch and breakfast! Of course she did bad stuff later, which was so over the top and then winds up in jail days before she is getting her MBA of all things, but why should a woman HAVE to do these things for her husband to be a good wife. It is one thing if she wants to or doesn’t mind but if she doesn’t too bad. What did he do before he got married? If he never learned to take care of himself that is his problem. And don’t get me started on the baby almost drowning in the tub, by turning on the faucet itself and then needing a blood transfusion as the reason we find out the husband isn’t the dad?!! Someone medical tell me if I’m wrong but can you solely tell someone’s paternity by testing the blood type? And don’t you have to ask for a paternity test and sign some forms requesting it before a practitioner can just tell you a child’s paternity, even if they accidently determine it via an unrelated test or am I wrong?

    That aside, all of the silly plot contrivances, crazy coincidences, and sexist and homophobic attitudes were too much and I will NEVER watch one of those films again. Even if the person braiding my hair is watching, I will break my usual practice of not commenting on what is being watched and ask politely if they can turn it off. The singing was nice though and like Latoya said from the perspective of how ambitious he has been and creating his own business and even making mainstream films and getting someone of Angelina Jolie’s star power says a lot. Beyond that… PU!

  28. deathblossom wrote:

    My family took me to see Diary and that was enough. The obese, finger-wagging, sugah pie accented “matronly” grandmother is not funny and it’s tired.

    I am also at a loss with these comments about “respecting his hustle”? What’s there to respect? That he figured out audiences will eat up stereotypical representations of black people? Everyone knows that, it’s just that it wasn’t until Tyler Perry that someone was shameless enough to make a career out of it and had enough of a shield (being black) to make their work as outrageous and offensive as possible.

  29. Monie wrote:

    Latoya ,

    I get what you are saying. I certainly don’t want to approach that slippery slope either. Nor do I want to be disrespectful of Racialicious or you. I just feel that if someone is going to use mass media to make my life more difficult then their personal life and their motivations can be apart of the conversation.

    If Tyler Perry had a bad relationship with his mother and it turned out the she was an educated professional woman, which is the type of woman he attacks in his films, then wouldn’t that be fair game in discussing his misogyny?

  30. Renee wrote:

    I stayed away from the issue of TP’s sexuality primarily because as far as I know, he is not declared what it is, not that it is necessary for him to do so. But if perchance he is homosexual it does put his movies in a new light. As a feminist many believe that a gay man is our natural ally and I have repeatedly said that it is not the case. Sexual orientation does not necessarily mean that someone is aware of their male privilege, or the ways in which they benefit from it.
    While ignorance of privilege is something that both straight and gay men experience, coming from a man that is same gender loving challenges the idea that just because someone is oppressed that they necessarily recognize the oppression of others. There is no doubt that Tp’s work is anti woman in every sense of the word.

  31. Monie wrote:

    @The Cruel Secretary

    Yeah but, if a racist is out in the world making life more difficult for people of color then is it really our job to protect and be concerned about his privacy?

    So insert homophobe and I ask the same question.

    Ultimately Perry’s sexuality is just a point of possible irony. The fact remains that he is a homophobe. I mentioned his possible sexual orientation for irony’s sake not really as the focus of my point(s).

  32. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @Monie–unfortunately, *you* made his “personal business” (your euphemism for a homosexuality that you’re speculating about, not a fact that he addressed) a major point of critique of his work. It was that unfortunate critique that I addressed. If you would have simply critiqued his homophobia (which should be challenged) w/out getting into insinuating his sexuality, then I wouldn’t have had such a problem with your statements.

    Carry on…

  33. Madame Zenobia wrote:

    TP needs to keep his views to himself. Who the hell would take advice from a single man who has never been married. (Not to mention the kind of Marriage TP really wants is only legal in Canada and Massachusetts)

    @ politicallyincorrect,

    I LOLed at this….hmmm :lol:

    I can only take Tyler Perry…in small doses. I’ve seen the plays and of those plays I enjoyed this one the best. But when the moment came for spirituals and gospel concerts I fast-forwarded. I am entertained by “Madea”…she reminds me of Aunt who used to scare the sh*t out of me as a kid…

  34. ieishah wrote:

    actually, i never said anything about his sexuality. i personally, couldn’t care less. i just said mentioning his sexuality (for those who want to) or speculating on it is completely apropos of understanding his point of view.
    didn’t y’all publish a piece not long ago on woody allen’s romantic life and how it impacts the casting of his movies? an article, which, if i recall correctly, was mostly, if not entirely based on speculation of what he should/might/must be thinking? merely saying, ‘i think perry might be gay’ is nowhere near expressing homophobic sentiment. and it’s speculation which, if handled intelligently, could create possibilities for analysis.

    and latoya, you know you can’t keep folks from submitting ignorant ass comments, slippery slope or no. i’m not saying you shouldn’t try, i’m just saying . . .

  35. thenderson wrote:

    I’m not understanding how people who say they don’t watch movies can then say he is homophobic and anti-woman based on his movies that they haven’t watched (or only watched a few minutes of). I have seen almost all of his plays, and i’ve seen 3 of his movies and in my opinion, there was nothing homophobic or anti-woman in them.

    Also, Tyler Perry has said publicly that he is straight.

  36. allheavens wrote:

    Tyler Perry needs to stop!! I cannot for the life of me see why any Black female would pay good money to see any of his films.

    When will Hollywood stop thinking of the African American market as a monolith?
    Well never, because it is working for them and Perry. It’s made Perry one rich mofo.

    Talk about beating a dead horse? The same tired concept: the spiritual and stalwart blue-collar man vs the educated, ungrateful, greedy white-collar bitch. Because we know that the only thing educated Black women really want is a good god-fearing man to tell her who she is and what she wants. *rolls eyes*

    Homophobia and misogyny sold as faith-base positive role modeling.

    Damn! Black women we truly need to have our own sexual revolution or we will forever have the Tyler Perrys of the world dishing out Black patriarchal guidance masquerading as an Aunt Jemima stereotype who speaks with grandmotherly wisdom and authority to Black womanhood about our appropriate sexual and spiritual behavior.

  37. Titanis walleri wrote:

    “Someone medical tell me if I’m wrong but can you solely tell someone’s paternity by testing the blood type?”
    iirc, there are cases where a woman’s infidelity was revealed that way, or something similar to it.

  38. bertie wrote:

    TP seems to hate everybody above blue collar status, not just women. For every shrill career woman doggin the “good men” in his movie, there is also white collar man cheating on or beating on the heroines of his movies.

    In Diary, it was Steve Harris who dragged his wife out by her hair after revealing he was a cheater.

    In Family Reunion, it was Blair Underwood (Family Reunion) who routinely whupped his fiancee’.

    In Daddy’s Little Girl, although not a central part of the plot, there is a comic bit where the Gabrielle Union’s “perfect white collar man” has a wife and kids (who happen to show up during Gabby’s dream date).

    In Why did I get married, Jill Scott’s husband is the only character that doesn’t have a redeemable moment in the film. He is verbally abusive and brings his mistress to a retreat. It’s true, the women are certainly flawed. But so are the men…albeit to a lesser extent (Mike Jai White is an immature cheat, TP is callous in his disregard for his wife’s fears about having a kid, etc.)

    I honestly cannot comment on his other works because I haven’t seen them.

    But I think his bias is beyond gender–or at least alot more complex than just a hate for career women. Us college boys don’t fare well either.

  39. Futurebird wrote:

    How can one talk about TP without saying something about the endless fat jokes? I don’t know I just don’t find him funny.

  40. Futurebird wrote:

    Also why is a man in a dress supposed to be so funny? There is something about his movies I just don’t get.

  41. Heather wrote:

    @jen*,Jamerican – I actually think it’s important for us to be able to laugh at things (in entertainment/media) that are serious (in real life). I think it’s one of the only things that can keep us from becoming bitter, jaded, and immobilized by inequalities and injustices in the world. I also think it can provide a bridge to the other side of an issue and open up a passageway for discussion if we can laugh about something and then turn to the person sitting next to us and talk about issues that have been brought up without being so distraught/confrontational that we close the ears of another person.

    That being said, I don’t particularly enjoy TP; I far prefer equal opportunity offenders like “South Park” and “Family Guy”. However, that’s just my tastes. I don’t think we need to feel badly for what appeals to us, as long as we continue to dialogue about it and be honest with ourselves about why we like it or what messages we are consciously or unconsciously absorbing and how that affects us individually. (That was a terribly structured sentence, so my apologies, but I hope you get what I mean.) Like most things in life, when it comes to entertainment, we each need to know what our boundaries are and understand that not everybody’s boundaries will line up with ours. And although I don’t like TP’s stuff, I fully appreciate that he has helped create this kind of a dialogue.

  42. Beth wrote:

    “First Tyler like many other black men, needs to take off the dress. I am tired of seeing black men pay homage to black women by depicting us as ridiculous caricatures.”

    I’d go further, and say it’s time for the Mame stereotype to be recognized as an exploitation, not a “homage”. I don’t see why it is still considered appropriate for men to dress up as female minstrel show stereotypes even after black face is *finally* unacceptable.

    I once watched the “making of” feature for Big Mama’s House. Then I watched Bamboozled. When put in that context Spike Lee appears to be a master of understatement.

  43. A.D. Nix wrote:

    I’ve seen bits and pieces of Tyler Perry films and . . . No. Can’t do it.

    They seem wholly inspired by Fox News sound bites. The same values are present and they are not mine.

    I’m fine with black conservative entertainment existing for black conservatives. But I’m sick of being told its for me (a black liberal progressive feminist woman who likes sex and books and work -OOPS-) when it is all about, as previously mentioned, correcting my (dangerous awesome) course.

    Here is my question: Does his messaging work? Is it working? I’ve heard one person refer to a TP movie as a lesson for what happens when you ‘do wrong’ but I wonder if, in fact, TP’s terrible writing and terrible stories are changing the way black women and black men relate to their partners (and think of themselves). It seems a rehash of the same shit people have been saying forever but in a bad wig. Is the bad wig getting the job done?

    Also: Perry has been pretty explicit about his search for Mrs. Right so there’s no ambiguity there as far as the sexuality he presents.

  44. Barbara B. wrote:

    Asada said-
    “+ please tell me I’m not the only one who cannot understand the meaning of
    emasculated?”

    You’re not the only one. I’m enraged by the very notion of emasculation. It makes me think that masculinity is a very fragile thing indeed.

    BTW, does anyone know if there’s a female equivalent of emasculate? I’ve never heard it or come across it in print…

  45. gogojojo wrote:

    @brad I think she’s gotta have it is pretty good. But I think spike lee fails at (Black) women in just about every other film.

    Especially “She Hate Me” which was basically a movie about how this random black man gets to sleep with all these lesbians and impregnate them. And you know some of them like it a little. And in the end his ex-girlfriend invites him into a threesome with her partner because she still wants him soooo bad. I would give him more of a benefit of the doubt that there was a deeper message if there hadn’t been all of the gratuitous sex/nudity.

    Also I am still angry at the fact that Betty Shabazz is in Malcolm X for like ten minutes. I mean Angela Bassett makes a badass Betty. But really we spend more time seeing the development of the random white woman from Malcolm’s days in crime than we do with his WIFE!! Who also happened to be very outspoke and active in the Nation. Really I could write an essay on how bad I think Spike Lee f’d up the role of Black women in Malcolm X’s life.

  46. Lynn wrote:

    “BTW, does anyone know if there’s a female equivalent of emasculate? I’ve never heard it or come across it in print…”

    http://www.racialicious.com/2008/02/15/not-woman-enough/

  47. Shawn wrote:

    I think what is overlooked is that in most black-themed movies blue-collar brothers are primarily used as villains or the but of jokes related to how uneducated/unsophisticated/ill-mannered they are, and how wrong they are for sisters, or how stupid/aggravating they are, etc. And he is working on improving the sophistication of his movies. A lot of his stuff isn’t my cup of tea either, but you have to give him credit for getting a lot of black actors work in a venue that’s been rather thin for our folks unless you need poor people, criminals, or background people to prove you’re “diverse”.

    I don’t think he believes career women are evil, they’re actually to be admired. But just as it is with men, if you put all your energy and presence into your work, don’t be surprised when things go wrong at home. Isn’t that what’s been put forth in movies about ambitious brothers that don’t take care of the home place?

  48. merq wrote:

    @ ieishah:

    two absolutely brilliant comments. The one about the dream was brilliant.

    @ Heather:
    The argument can be (and has been on this site) that South Park and Family Guy aren’t quite as egalitarian in their mockery as they’d like you to believe.

  49. April wrote:

    Nichole, thank you. I thought I was the only one who was getting that “message”.

    After watching a few of TP’s films it became apparent (at least to me) that he has a serious problem with independent women. In every movie I have seen, the women are often penalized for being (or desiring to be) successful on her terms.

    The last straw happened upon viewing The Family That Preys. I was mortified when a scene of domestic violence occurred and the audience cheered in approval. I don’t know if his movies reflect his point of view or that of his desired audience, but either way…I want no part of it.

  50. Ada wrote:

    My problem with TP movies is that they seem to villanize women, rich blacks, and make the ghetto seem like a wonderful place to live. Every movie by him that I’ve been forced to watch by my family is full of these obvious value statements. I understand TP’s desire to change the perceptions of the average black man, but his way of doing it is very strange. I also have a problem with how dysfunctional his families are. Nobody’s family is Stepford, but it disgusts me how full of abuse (sexual, drug, etc) all of his productions are. To me, it seems he ends up giving a bad impression of black families in attempting to give a lesson on the goodness and strength of them. To his credit, I love Madea. I actually don’t find her character a caricature. More like a homage to drag haha.

  51. Renee wrote:

    I also would like to throw out that he has a disturbing penchant for showing children being whipped with belts. To me this child abuse. He puts in there as though this is funny. In both instances that In have seen he was actually the one wielding the belt. So what we see is a black man in a dress beating a female child. I find this highly disturbing. If he were beating dogs people would be up in arms about animal cruelty but when it is a child it is fine to use it as comic relief. For a God fearing man Tp needs to rethink his views on violence.

  52. JB wrote:

    I’ve never been a huge TP fan, even though my parents and nearly everyone in their chuch are, so I am constantly exposed to the movies and discussions thereof when I am visiting my folks.

    I can see the appeal to them, but for me it is still a case of villifying white collar blk men and women. The husband in one movie is an educated lawyer but a horrible, abusive, white woman loving ogre to his humble hard working black wife. The wife in this movie is a cruel monster for her lack of “biblical” submission.

    The biggest arguement I ever had with my father was over my refusal to “control” “my” household because I always include my wife in decisions that he wouldn’t with mom. If she has a good idea regarding something, I will go for it and vice -versa. No one needs to dominate or rule anything. We each contribute where we are strong. Some things I take a back seat on, other thingsshe does based on our relative understanding of a particular field or topic.

    However, therein lies the appeal of Tyler Perry and his insidious appeal to men and women.Its nothing new i is the same rural christian tradition present in white and black culture in the south. The man is dominant that is the trade off for a “godly” man. If the man isn’t dominant then the woman will go out of control. If the wife isn’t submissive then the man will cheat and be abusive until he gets a woman that knows her place.

    Its garbage, I said it to my father and I stand by that opinion of male social dominance now. Sure we can fight better and lift eavier things on average, but that doesn’t make the male viewpoint the most valid or important one in society.

    The only distressing thing I find is that when this behaviour happens in a white movie, people say its a case of ruralism. When it happens in a black movie, its said that it is black culture in general.

  53. jaden_loves wrote:

    I have a lot to say. I agree with some things that have been said, disagree with most. I wish I could site all the people I want to directly address, but I won’t because there are too many. I will tell of my complete thoughts on Tyler Perry, I may repeat some things that have already been said, please forgive me.

    I am watching Tyler Perry’s new show, Meet The Browns, right now. I think we can all agree that TP’s works are directed towards a Christian, black, young audience and not only Christian, but a Christian in the traditional sense; straight, married with children or looking to get married and have children. He wants to inspire black people who follow his works to go to church and be that traditional christian. I think what the bigger picture here that needs to be analyzed is if traditional christianity is sexist and misogonistic? Of course it is! That’s we have this new wave of Christianity that embraces homosexuality, premartial sex, and other things that traditional christians like Tyler Perry would deem blasphemy. People are feeling locked out by the selective Christian, they are creating a more inclusie Christianity to be apart of, which would also be blaspemeus to someone like Perry. Of course the show in general is homophobic, but its not always sexist; which is usually in line with traditional christianity. Gospel songs are often sung in his works, too. However, there are positive examples of women, and all the men are not displayed as excellent people. The women cater to the men because that is what traditional christian women that are married are SUPPOSED to do. That does not mean that it is ok for Tyler Perry to further his views by putting them on television, but his works are successful so there are people that agree, identify, and are inspired by his views. Tyler Perry’s works deal with many different aspects of problems that black families go through and at the end of the day it is a positive representation of us, and Tyler Perry himself is a good representation. He is making enormous amounts of money on his own terms, with the support of his own people, while not exploiting women sexually while doing it, which is how a lot of white males get rich these days.

    I think Tyler Perry’s works are funny, typical and corny, but funny still. He has expressed that his works are directly inspired by God and that he wants to show black families how to deal with the situations that society put themselves in, which he does successfully, if you want to know what you should do if you’re a “real” Christian.

    Christian privilege is something that is prevalent in this society, but it is also simply not prevalent enough for Christians. This show, to Christians, is a step forward, in that it is the first openly Christian show that express Christian values and is widly successful.

    I am not religious, I used to be, so I hope I was able to give some insight. Also, I know that I can definitely identify with the characters in Tyler Perry’s works because they go through a lot of the same struggles that my family and I go through, just without the happy ending, but sometimes its good to see that happy ending even if it won’t ever come true in real life. Its good to see black people getting married on his works instead of Soledad O’Brien talking about how we don’t get married, no matter how true it is or not. Tyler Perry is a temporary escape from reality for many people, and a well deserved one at that.

    As for Madea, I wish she could actually be played by a woman, but whatever, she’s funny. People do have people like Madea in their family. What I see in Madea is a protector, when people are molesting and threatening her family, she comes to the rescue and pulls out all the stops inculding a gun. On the other hand, a lot of people don’t have Madea’s in their family and we dream about someone who would show us how to throw hot grits on an abusive man. I had a problem with Norbit, because it was racist and had the main character had NO positive attributes, not so with Madea. Madea is empowering, she is loveable, funny, and caring. We want her to be apart of our family.

    This is just my opinion and I am going to go back and click the links that were posted. I won’t apologize for the long post.lol.Maybe I’ll post more later.

  54. jaden_loves wrote:

    PS, I think the whole thing about fat-homophobic which some say Perry I exemplifies, can also be interpreted as a plead with black families to eat better and exercise; especially sense he infuses the jokes with good advice about how to stay healthy. And about whipping kids, the Bible says “spare the rod, spoil the child”. I don’t want my comment to be interpreted as using the Bible to excuse so-called child abuse, you just have to understand the pysche of Tyler Perry’s works and who he is trying to appeal to. Christiany does allow for these type of things, that’s why I’m not religious.

  55. DivergentDana wrote:

    “While I can understand why Tyler Perry structures his movies around the hard working blue collar black man (admittedly a group that doesn’t get much love or respect in pop culture) I hate how he has to demonize the white collar female counterparts to prove that point.”

    I agree that he demonizes white collar women, but I think he demonizes white collar blacks in general. Steve Harris’s character in Diary of a Mad Black Woman was cartoonishly, mustache twirlingly evil. (One of the many reasons TP turns me off is the 2-dimensional characters) But I think it’s no different than Palin’s “real America” pandering. “Sure, those folks may have all the money and book smarts, but we’re the ones with real, priceless values.” And of course, many of those values revolve around the lionization of traditional gender roles and religion — both of which explain and allow the homophobia. The education disparity in the black community between genders is seen by many as destructive to the “natural order” of things… men are emasculated and women are masculinized by it. In mainstream culture, the “biological clock” serves as a rectifier — a common theme in romcoms is the self-absorbed career woman who suddenly realizes that her time is running out and goes for the ultimate Hail Mary. In the black community, however, the landscape is different… the Life-Affirming Baby may be present already, and Mr. Right is often the missing piece, so Perry’s works put more value on black blue collar masculinity, suggesting that Average Joe is Mr. Right, because he has those aforementioned Real Values, and a certain unique essence that white collar black men (and men of all classes of other races) may lack… an essence that single black women crave and need.

    “The argument can be (and has been on this site) that South Park and Family Guy aren’t quite as egalitarian in their mockery as they’d like you to believe.”

    Yeah. The epic number of targets on South Park is shown to be misleading when it’s broken down into marginalized vs. dominant groups. Oh, they’re so edgy, fearless and anti-status quo for making fun of transsexuals! *eyeroll* They’re also light on ridicule for those who subscribe to their pet ideologies, except for that one “Atlas Shrugged” jab — apparently it was the book that put the cop character off of reading forever.

  56. Nora wrote:

    Thank you. I nearly had a falling-out with my mother over TP. I said I thought he exploited black women and made black people as a whole look bad, for his own profit. She thought I was crazy… but then, I’m single and she’s always urging me to go to church to “find a man”, so I guess that’s why she groks his message. I never will.

  57. Eric Daniels wrote:

    I am always amazed by liberal educated Black Women and their allies who always bashes TP work as sexist, anti- gay, or whatever comes to mind. Perry’s films are like the old Frank Capra films of the 30’s -50’s that hark back to community, family and pride in a somewhat comical way. His films are morailty plays like Capra’s movies although Perry could use a better writer or two in his plays and t.v. series, he’s done it on his own terms which I do admire. And you ladies and gents criticizing his films is very hypocritical when many of you don’t partake in the working -class “black community” or have escaped to the loving arms of reason and white america and it’s cultural norms.

    I think Tyler Perry in his films is trying to bring back those things that helped Black America endure segregation, racism, and poverty by stressing that family unity is the only salvation along with faith, education and hard work and forgivness and an appreaciation of life itself will go further than that new car or riches or college degrees. But since that goes against the post-racial worldview of many of you people who have escaped Black America to the values you rail against your families values and movies.

    It must have been hard being the black oddball in a room full of relatives who laugh at TP films and movies and partake in a culture many of you can’t stand to fit in or hate to the core of your being. You people are “intergrated Americans” and instead of being truthful of your disdan for tradtional black american culture I would like to ask those people how would they solve the problems African- Americans labor under in this country w/o calls for more IR marriages or liberal odes to diversity and white cultural assimilation ?

  58. MoeHailstone wrote:

    I don’t like Tyler Perry’s movies cause its like trip to Baptist church on acid. Now that he has a production company it might be time for him to step back from the storymaking and find some other black writers to help diversify his movies in both message and delivery. Broaden his audience. All black life isn’t that of southern baptists, we’re alot more diverse than that and it seems that his movies are just focused on those principles and family structure.

    I can’t imagine a black woman with a thriving career in Philadelphia, Chicago, New York, or Los Angeles would be able to watch his movies without being wanting to throw up. If you want to be more than a woman ironing for a man or have a career his message is always one of unhappiness for her. She is either neglectful to her family or man.

    The problem for me is I dont find him funny. That same old fat, mammy look is “exploitation”. Eddie Murphy, Martin, all of them that do that stupid shit…but I digress

    The real problem is that its like his movies are only for those of us who don’t exist in a more diverse world. Those of us that do find his work like its trying to tell us to go back to the old world. Especially black women. His message is for you to return to 1957.

  59. Tiffany wrote:

    Tyler perry needs to retire his antics..

  60. Eric Daniels wrote:

    Moe Hailstone, no one has asked you or any other Black Person to go back to the 1957 or live in a Black Community, Perry’s films speak to a Black Audience that feels it is losing itself in an era of so-called diversity and intergration that many of us did not benefit from in the least. Now those who are complaining about Perry’s films and the working-class black auidence it attracts why don’t you progressive black complainers

    1. Make your own films
    2. Do what Perry did

    Maybe you can get Bobby De Niro, George Lucas or some other white filmaker who loves the “sistas” to counter Perry’s obviously racist black movies of community, faith, Pride and “Black Love” which in many of you post -racials find so distasteful. I would like to say that the majority of us are proud of being black warts and all and would love to repair our communities and selves without having to give up our culture.

  61. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Eric –

    You need to calm yourself. So-called diversity and integration is the raison d’ etre for this site. And if you have a problem with those principles, you need to be somewhere else.

    As for the bile you’re spouting –

    Black culture does not begin and end with Tyler Perry. As a person raised on a steady diet of community productions, August Wilson, and Alvin Ailey, I find your idea of a monolithic blackness offensive and disgusting.

    Compare anything that Tyler Perry’s done to a movie like Love Jones. To a play like Jitney . Tyler Perry makes movies to entertain people, and found an audience. Great for him. And it is beneficial to note that Tyler Perry employs a lot of black actors who would not be working. Again, laudable.

    But don’t EVER insinuate that Tyler Perry is the be-all, end all of black culture. There were many before him, there will be many after him, and each one will be critiqued – as we have always done – through the lens of what their art/entertainment says about the community it supposedly represents.

  62. Black Dragon wrote:

    ” But since that goes against the post-racial worldview of many of you people who have escaped Black America to the values you rail against your families values and movies.”

    @ Eric Daniels: You hit the nail on the head, I was reading this hypocrisy and thinking the very same thing. It’s the Educated Black Person versus The Uneducated Black Person debate, I can see the one racialicious member cringing in a room of family members who love and take TP movies as light comedy, wondering if the berated white collar man/woman will be compared with them.

  63. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Black Dragon –

    See what I wrote to Eric Daniels. Again, if this site doesn’t speak to you, you can move on.

  64. kim h20s wrote:

    i’m glad that tyler perry puts out the films that he does. the cinderella story is very popular in mainstream media, but as a black woman the message i got was “being rescued is not for you, you will work hard and succeed (probably alone), but you can’t depend on a black man on a black horse to rescue you”.

    almost every sitcom ends has a major story line of a white woman finally ending her single years in the big city by meeting the perfect man and getting married. didn’t we all cheer when plucky bridget jones won her man in the end?

    every story i see isn’t telling my story. but what i like about tp, is that its based in a cultural reference that i can understand.

    the plot line of the career woman who loses hearth and home is an old plot and usually resurfaces as a result of waves of feminism.

    but (and i’ve got to take it here)…tp is a movie. barack and michelle are real.

  65. Miz JJ wrote:

    TP movies remind me of all the reason I stopped reading Ebony magazine. I read just one too many articles telling white collar sistas to get off their high horse and date/marry a blue collar man. I think this belief that blue collar men are the holy grail is insulting to all those involved. Blue collar men are no better, or worse than other men. Putting them on a pedestal as the savior of the black community as TP often does is not helpful. Also, his message is anti-education. It’s this old school belief that if you get too much schooling you might never find a man. All that schooling is going to put crazy ideas in your head like your worth is more than being a man’s wife and cleaning up after him. That’s just sad because TP should be trying to promote (higher) education in black communities, IMO.

  66. A.D. Nix wrote:

    “but (and i’ve got to take it here)…tp is a movie. barack and michelle are real.”

    Imagine how those two might fare in a TP movie.

  67. Renee wrote:

    @Latoya he may be hiring blacks but it is a well known fact he is not paying them their due. He has also employed union busting tactics for his screen writers. Being black and hiring black does not mean that you don’t oppress. He has bought into capitalism just like everyone else and wants to ensure that he has the biggest slice of the pie. This of course to me is yet another reason to dislike the man.

  68. luckybrans wrote:

    @kimh2os
    The problem for me with TP’s films is that unlike Bridget Jones the good black woman can’t drink, smoke, swear, or like sex. She has to be an ideal Christian woman, which a lot of us aren’t. Why is that the black women who don’t fit that role get to have the perfect man?

    I’d rather see movies in the vain of Living Single, where there’s a diversity of black women represented.

  69. Monie wrote:

    I agree with Renee. Tyler Perry was recently sued because he did not properly pay his employees.

    I also don’t really understand those who have said they respect Tyler Perry’s hustle? Flava Flav has a hustle too. Should we ignore that Flava has become a professional minstrel simply because he’s being paid?

    To me excusing the actions of certain Black people because they are making money is very questionable and sort of condescending.

    We, Black people, are just as capable as anyone else when it comes to making money in ways that don’t negatively impact the entire community. So we shouldn’t excuse people like Perry and Flava Flav.

  70. Adrienne wrote:

    A couple of weekends ago I decided to watch my first two Tyler Perry films. “Madea” has never really appealed to me but Why Did I Get Married? and The Family that Preys looked like they might be winners. After all, he had managed to get Kathy Bates and Alfre Woodard to team up on screen! This must be good right? WRONG! I viewed both films back to back, hoping one might redeem the other, but alas, no such luck. If Tyler Perry’s target audience is women they must be some seriously self-hating ladies because I found myself terribly offended throughout both films. Given the above synopsis of Madea Goes to Jail it sounds like he keeps making the same film over and over again. I completely agree with the assessment that TP’s whole goal in film making is to teach black women, especially successful, ambitious black women, to “know your role” and “stay in your place.” He also manages to use horrible, preachy dialogue, ridiculous melodrama and predictable story lines to do it!

    @ Monie – Is there seriously a crack head on House of Payne? Unbelievable! I’ve never seen it and I definitely won’t be watching it now. Thanks for the heads up.

  71. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @luckybrans: I was just talking to a friend about how hard it is to believe that Living Single happened. And how much we miss it. I mean, come on. FOUR black women? All very different? One of them as hilariously crazy as she was smart (Max)? Can we have more, um, diversity, please?

    @ Renee and Monie: Agreed re: workers and exploitation. I heard about him not paying or crediting writers but I didn’t know about the union busting.

    I guess Latoya’s point (and I have to sadly agree) is that . . . Steve Harris should be working.* Gabrielle Union should be working. TP gives black actors work. I don’t like/need/champion that work, but that’s a something in TP’s defense? A v. small something.

    * ‘Quarantine’ barely counts. And, though I love them dearly, he should have more than voice acting on Saturday morning cartoons to show for the last few years of work. So many talented black actors getting nothing but voice work for SMCs. The hell.

  72. kim h20s wrote:

    @luckybrans – when you talk about living single, you hit my heart! we pretended we were ‘different world’ in college and to follow that up with living single while we were in our early 20s was probably the last time i saw my life as a black women accurately portrayed on tv until ‘girlfriends’.

    @AD Nix – barack and michelle would probably fare pretty well in a tp film. he would capitalize on the fact that while michelle was once barack’s law firm mentor, once michelle stepped out of the corporate world and became a housewife, barack was able to become president. tp would probably have a scene where the michelle’s grandmother makes a big soul food dinner in the white house kitchen much to the chagrin of the white house chefs. and of course don’t forget the singing…lots of gospel singing.

  73. jen* wrote:

    I noticed TP’s trend of punishing white-collar women for their ambition quite early on. I hate that there seems to always be a magical formula – finding the ’saved, blue-collar man’ makes everything alright. This is one reason why I have problems with TP.

    But I still find Madea hilarious.

    I also get ticked that usually, the only “good man” with a white collar job is usually played by TP himself. But I’m guessing he has his own issues to work through.

    I think several people are correct that part of the reason that his movies/plays/shows do so well is that there *is* a large audience that agrees with his premise. There are a lot of black people I know that believe that the man should be head-of-household/priest-of-home/decision-maker/etc. The wife is playing a support role, and they are happy that there is someone reinforcing the roles.

    Shoot, I know a lot of older women who shake their heads and say, “yeah – you can keep going and get all them degrees/jobs, but will you ever get a man – hmm?”

    The fact that he, like many others in the fairly recent past, have been able to capitalize on the Christian community’s consumerism shows that he is business savvy. He’s speaking their language, and they answer with the dollar bills.

    I’m a part of the Christian community, and grew up with many of the notions he espouses – so I am familiar with them. But I no longer agree with many of them. Maybe that’s why I can laugh and cringe at the same time.

    As for #54:
    The Bible doesn’t actually say that. ["spare the rod..."] The closest text to that is actually found in Proverbs 23:13 and says “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.” (KJV) We don’t need to get into a Biblical discussion, but that’s one o’ my peeves – saying that there is something in the Bible that actually isn’t. [Sorry for semi-off-topic, here.]

  74. Ron wrote:

    @ Eric Daniels -

    I hear you loud and clear. I think we have to understand Racialicious audience and targeted demographic.

    We should also concede that TP movies represents a nice cross-section of the black experience in America. However, the stereotypes turn people off, espeically BW.

    Where are the black catholics, muslims, budhists, new age, and spiritualists.

    TP being from the midwest should provide something outside of the Atlanta scene.

    The BW portrayals are definitely unrealistic. Oprah is BM’s TP she usually finds the most dengenerate black men to portray in her movies.

    I figure TP is going for the biggest slice that he can get so simplicity in character is key.

    However, group think is typical of some of the commenters here as well so I undertand your frustration.

    I guess the best solution is to find sites that BM can identify with more.

  75. DivergentDana wrote:

    “And you ladies and gents criticizing his films is very hypocritical when many of you don’t partake in the working -class “black community” or have escaped to the loving arms of reason and white america and it’s cultural norms.”

    Ooookay. I thought that was what this site was for… critical analysis of pop culture phenomena.

  76. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Monie –

    Actually, Katt Williams has a bit that perfectly addresses the Flava Flav thing*…(smiles at Jen).

    Renee brings up a good point – Tyler Perry is creating movies for the community for a profit and to increase his name brand.

    As a business person, as I said before, I respect his hustle. It is damn hard to build an audience, and then to keep, grow, and maintain that audience. (And please note, we’ve had variations of this discussion before in reference to Street Lit, among other things.)

    It is damn hard to make a movie (and as someone going through a part of that process, I feel that.) And so for him to make a name for himself, become a brand, locate his audience, target that audience, produce works for that audience, make enough to reinvest in a new project and do it again – it’s fucking hard.

    (I have a piece based on some of the industy trades I’ve been reading on PoCs in the film industry, directing, and selling to a non-stereotyped audience, but that’s a post that probably won’t hit until next month.)

    However, that doesn’t mean that we accept what he offers unflinchingly, or hold it up as the be-all-end-all of the black experience. People have a right to their tastes, and to what they like and don’t like. But others also have a right to critique these things, specifically if they are problematic.

    So, you can respect what Tyler has done from a business sense and have problems with it from a community representation stance.

    @Renee –

    The non payment thing is a sad reality of the film industry. I’d be interested to see Tyler Perry’s books, to see how he categorizes his films and such to get a sense.

    From the screenwriters standpoint, it is not at all uncommon to try to union bust.

    Let’s say I write a screenplay and send it to TP.

    If I send in the script on my own, unrepresented, he can probably buy my script for 5K – 10K, and I’d be glad to have that money.

    If I get in with the Writer’s Guild (which you have to sell screenplays/scripts for in order for them to accept you), my minimum for a low budget feature jumps up to 60K and includes two rewrites. And that’s for a feature categorized as low-budget.

    This was something they told us to accept in the film school class I took – that they would try to screw you on script payments until you make a name for yourself, after which you call the shots about your own work. Explotation is the name of the game, so I can’t say I am shocked that TP is being sued. Appears to come with the territory.

    Does this mean this is the way things should be? No.

    Is this a reality I walk into, just like knowing that writing progressive PoC roles isn’t going to happen for me until I make a name for myself? Yep.

    * So, in Katt William’s DC comedy special, he talked about going to a Flava Flav roast. He thought it was weird that he didn’t get the roast script in advance, and felt like something wasn’t right. Eventually, Katt gets his hands on the script, and he said it was the most racist thing he ever read. But by then, it’s close to air time. He’s struggling with what to do but eventually goes out and does his own material. When he comes in after the show, Katt and his staff are upset and they feel dirty and used. Then Flav walks in all happy and smiling. And Katt is freaking out like “What are you so happy about? They humiliated you!”

    And he said Flav said “I don’t give a fuck what they think, they got to pay me boyeeeeeeeee!” and ran out. Katt took this as a lesson in priorities.

    (Video here.

    Katt talked about how he was mad, but he had already spent the money so he went ahead and did it. And when Flav said what he said, he realized Flav was doing the same thing. So, in some cases, people want to fight for dignity in representation. And sometimes, people fight for money. This argument has been going on since Hattie McDaniel said “I’d rather play a maid and make $700 a week than be one for $7.” I doubt it will be resolved anytime soon.

  77. Jess wrote:

    Something I noticed here, and I am curious what people think.

    Tyler Perry seems to be a very conservative (not just in the political sense) view of black culture that lionizes things that were sort of myths to begin with.

    Let me give a parallel example: a lot of people (white conservatives, usually) talk about the 50s as though it was Ozzie and Harriet — yet we know from the statistical information int he US Census that the TV ideal of Ozzie and Harriet represented a very small percentage of American families, even if you only included whites. For example, once you left the upper-income suburbs, (which at that time were small) the number of women in the workforce was quite high — it was just that often it was part-time or in a local family business (this patter was quite common in New York City, for instance, especially in “white ethnic” neighborhoods).

    Perry seems to be harping on black white-collar women in a way that incorporates a few myths:

    Myth #1: There is a shortage of eligible black men. While it is true a shockingly high percentage of black men have been hit by the legal system, it doesn’t follow that they are all in prison. Most are on probation or some such, and that doesn’t usually affect the other parts of your life. Also, while the rate of death fro violent crime is also very high among black males, the vast majority go their whole lives without ever even getting mugged.

    More importantly, any way you run the numbers it isn’t like there is some empirically existing “shortage.” It reminds me of the old saw that if a woman didn’t get married by the time she was 30 there was no chance. Um, no.

    The black men shortage myth then feeds into this idea that women (if they want a black man) have to settle for less. Not true. But Perry assumes the truth of this.

    Myth #2: A woman can’t have a career and a family. I don’t think I need to get into this one too much. But, a woman can do that if the husband involved is willing to show even a minimum of flexibility. There is no objective reason a man of any race can’t iron his own shirts. Do no black men ever live away from their parents? What do they do then? Tyler Perry leaves that question unanswered.

    More importantly, if you buy into myth #1, and assume that there is a shortage of good blue-collar black men (or black men period) and further assume that they aren’t very helpful, I’d say that a black woman has to set up to make a living somehow. Well, Mr Perry, how do you propose this happens? Which brings us to…

    Myth #3: There is a crisis in black “family values.” Again, this parallels a phenomenon with white people. Many poor white kids live in single parent homes — that was certainly the norm among the Irish Catholics I knew — but nobody is talking about the crisis in the white family. And while there are plenty of statistics showing mothers who are unwed, I haven’t seen any data to break out how many have a stable partner in the house even when unmarried. This too, is a norm I see all the time in New York City. Some folks have lived together for years — decades even — without ever getting married.

    Further, a basic assumption on Perry’s part is that women have some weird gene that prevents them from caring for both children and a career. He assumes that women “naturally” want children, and that if they go against this “natural” imperative, evil will ensue.

    You have to buy into all these myths, it seems to me, to get where Tyler Perry is coming from, and as importantly, to find it funny. But the problem is they are just that — myths. None of it actually describes the way most people really live, any more than Ozzie and Harriet did. Not that myths can’t be useful, but Perry’s don’t seem to be.

    Anyhoo, I’m curious if I am making sense or if this all looks like bunkum from an “outsider.”

  78. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Divergent Dana –

    Thank you. I say this same shit every single got damn day. We criticize pop culture. Not just the stuff that you happen not to like, but pop culture in general. If you don’t want to see your favorite stuff critiqued, go elsewhere. I love Chris Rock – still posted Tami’s piece on it. And as much as I love Katt Williams, it would not be a stretch for me to deconstruct how he plays to racist and sexist ideas in his comedy. Wouldn’t take me but about hour.

    Critiques exist to make things better.

    And, once again, with fucking feeling – Racialicious is not just a site for black people. I publish piece after piece on the diversity of black thought because people still don’t understand this concept. If you *just* want to talk about black issues, there is an entire AFROSPHERE. Go there.

    @Ieshah –

    Sorry, meant to get back to this earlier:

    speculating on it is completely apropos of understanding his point of view.
    didn’t y’all publish a piece not long ago on woody allen’s romantic life and how it impacts the casting of his movies? an article, which, if i recall correctly, was mostly, if not entirely based on speculation of what he should/might/must be thinking? merely saying, ‘i think perry might be gay’ is nowhere near expressing homophobic sentiment. and it’s speculation which, if handled intelligently, could create possibilities for analysis.

    Now, I linked to that piece and I think I put it into part of my analysis for Vicky Cristina Barcelona. However, it is established that Woody Allen is in a relationship with Soon Yi Previn. The leading lady in his life is Asian. That is a fact. The rest of the author’s piece was speculation as to Allen’s motivations.

    What is not established is Perry’s sexuality, and if he says he’s straight, we can go ahead and take that at face value. I agree that it can be a good, intelligent conversation when done right, but I’ve been modding this site for a year and a half – all signs pointed to no.

  79. Monie wrote:

    @Adrienne

    Yes and it’s a re-occurring role too. They constantly make jokes about it as well.

    And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

  80. Monie wrote:

    @Jess

    “Myth #3: There is a crisis in black “family values.” Again, this parallels a phenomenon with white people. Many poor white kids live in single parent homes — that was certainly the norm among the Irish Catholics I knew — but nobody is talking about the crisis in the white family.”

    Black people in America are seen as problematic, so the narrative is that everything we do is against the norm.

    Also there is a huge industry in the study of Black people. If one does a negative study about Black people it will surely get a lot of attention (and no one will consider the source). So a lot of so-called social scientists who want to get recognition do studies on us.

    This narrative has now become apart of the Black community itself. Barack Obama stands in front of Black crowds and berates absentee fathers. Would he in a million years ever consider berating White absentee fathers? Heck no.

    The biggest problem is that the narrative has become apart of our own entertainment/ media (Tyler Perry films, etc.; which to an extent means some of us have fully accepted it as being true.

    I think this myth has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  81. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @kim h20s: Maybe with a few slaps sprinkled in somewhere?

    @Latoya: I like Katt Williams (we have our disagreements but he makes me laugh. Hard.) and that story made me like him even more. Off-stage Katt at least.

    I wish there were more transparency when it comes to figures like Flava Flav. If everyone realized that it was primarily an act it would be less . . . problematic. But people are more than happy to take Flav at face value. And maybe you need true believers to pull checks. Either way . . . you’re right. Not expecting resolution anytime soon.

    @Jess: I think you are spot on in more than a few places.

  82. Renee wrote:

    @LaToya..it makes me question in the case of Perry, how much money is enough? Arguably he can afford to pay a living wage and still exist as one of the upper class and therefore it comes down to personal greed. I take particular issue with his union busting tactics as that is one of the few places outside of the church that blacks have used to pursue equality. I understand that the nature of the business is profit but that does not mean that the man does not exist with enough power and clout to make a change. For one that claims to love blacks he seems to have no problem standing on our backs to pad his wallets. I refuse to give the man a single dollar until he starts paying a fair wage. To me supporting him would be tantamount to supporting the exploitation of blacks. It is a classic example of the masters tools.

  83. Winn wrote:

    Eric Daniels,

    You’ve made a number of…um…interesting comments over the years on Racialicious, but this one may take the cake. So it is impossible to find TP’s films problematic unless you are a liberal, educated, by implication “bourgie” black woman in love with whiteness and living in a post-racial fantasyland? You presume you can define “traditional Black American culture” and exclude from it those of us who don’t subscribe to your conceptualization of that community? How the hell do you know where we live, or what our relationship is to the “working class” black community? I don’t know how many people have expressed this on the site over the years, but it is worth saying again: BLACKNESS IS NOT MONOLITHIC! Thus, TP is not the arbiter of what defines blackness. His films, which are pedestrian in direction, amateurish in writing and execution, didactic in theme, and yes, sexist and homophobic in message, are targeted and marketed to a specific audience, which is representative only of itself. Those of us who find his treatment of education and achievement, female agency in career and sexuality, gender relations, intimate family violence, class and colorism within the black community, and many other issues very problematic are certainly entitled to critique his works in reference to those depictions. I’m certainly not going to be shut down by someone whose argument is that I’m not black enough to criticize Perry’s work. You are not the arbiter of blackness either.

    One of my biggest problems with Perry’s films is the reliance on faith as the great problem-solver and the salve for all that ails you, from drug abuse to domestic violence to not having a man. Unreserved forgiveness for heinous acts without requiring accountability is not even advocated by Jesus, so the depiction of a daughter forgiving her mother for pimping her out to her step-father in Madea’s Family Reunion was both disgusting and in no way adequately addressed the long-term trauma and neglected mental health needs of abuse victims, a problem which has particular resonance in the “black community”. As a mental health provider, as a woman, and as a human being, I have no problem with the idea of forgiveness, but acting as if “giving it over to God” is all that is required to heal from abuse and trauma is disingenous and dangerous, and dismisses the real emotional and physical effects of abuse and neglect. For this alone, Perry’s films deserve serious criticism. But, unfortunately, this is only one layer of seriously troubling messages and imagery in his work.

    In fact, seen through an explicitly racial lens, there is a definitive connection between old “happy faithful darkies whose love of God sees them through all trials and tribulations” films like “The Green Pastures” and “Hallelujah” and Perry’s contemporary work. An emphasis on faith, community, and a certain version of “family values” is not bad in and of itself, but without counterbalancing visions of black imagery and narrative, Perry’s conceptualization of blackness becomes the prevailing one, and that is most definitelya problem.

  84. Tracey wrote:

    @ Eric
    “And you ladies and gents criticizing his films is very hypocritical when many of you don’t partake in the working -class “black community” or have escaped to the loving arms of reason and white america and it’s cultural norms.”

    What does that mean. Are you saying that black community and reason are mutually exclusive? Also, the model of being which you describe as ideal is very much developed and promoted by Eurocentric values that place emphasis on the nuclear family and champion Judeo-Christian morals and standards.
    I get the whole slow down and enjoy life thing and that TP’s plays and films are morality plays, and still feel they need to be critiqued. While everyone can benefit from learning to enjoy life more and valuing the people important to them, why is it so often the woman that is demonized for being to aggressive?
    TP may feel that the Eurocentric version of family modeled on Christian values is the best form of family structure and the only functional one, one which we should all strive for but not everyone on this site feels that way and we have just as much right to critique his plays as he has to make them.
    Also, you don’t know me. You know nothing of my background or beliefs. If anything I think the black community should be just that, a community. Instead of buying into this Eurocentric Protestant work ethic ideal of how society should be. You accuse people such as me of abandoning black “culture”, whatever is meant by that seeing as how culture is not a monolithic thing and can differ based on region/religion class, because I disagree with TP’s films and plays. You are the one that appears to be advocating that black people by into a Eurocentric model of what the ideal family should be and live their lives by Christian family morals that only seek to divide people and reinforce capitalism and individualism.
    TP would have us think that behaving in an un-Christian manner when it comes to familial roles is at the root of a lot of familial problems. I disagree and don’t see how that means I have alienated myself from other black people.

    “You people are “intergrated Americans” and instead of being truthful of your disdan for tradtional black american culture I would like to ask those people how would they solve the problems African- Americans labor under in this country w/o calls for more IR marriages or liberal odes to diversity and white cultural assimilation ?”
    Again, what does that even mean. Your idea of traditional black american culture speaks more to assimilating into white cultural norms than you might like to realize and in no way do I believe we live in a post-racial society.
    I agree that when it comes to family/career balance is important, but to me TP takes it to a totally different level. I don’t think buying into the Eurocentric family model and Protestant work ethic that only works to legitimize capitalism is going to solve the problems we face.
    Let those who want to see TP’s movies do so, and let those who want to critique them do so as well. Preferably, without accusing those who disagree with them of being alienated from black culture.
    In my opinion if people want to start bettering their lives, we should begin by heeding Martin Luther King Jr.’s call to socialism, and fostering a sense of community and personal responsibility. And by personal responsibility I don’t mean the idea that it’s all about you and your family or the idea that it’s acceptable to wake-up every morning and go out to work making money for yourself or anyone else without thought to how your work effects others and without thought to your status as a worker.
    See, no IR marriage or ode to diversity. I actually feel that we should stop trying to make an unjust system just.
    I also believe that this notion that black women are too assertive and should learn to be submissive wives does ruffle a lot of people’s feathers and for good reason. The Bible, by advocating that women obey and submit to their husbands, while being respected by their husbands is essentially advocating that women be treated like children. Think about, while parents are suppose to love and respect their children, it is also often understood that children are to be obedient and submissive to their parents.
    Yeah, some women want to be treated like partners in a relationship and not children. And it is just the educated ones or those that identify as feminists.
    As for the whole accusing someone of “acting white”, get over it, especially advocating the so-called “traditional” values that you do.

  85. Jess wrote:

    @Monie–

    Yeah, I figured that narrative was part of it. I’d argue that it isn’t just that social scientists want to do “Negative” studies of black people, but that they want to know why certain patterns exist. The problem is that too often, the studies get reported in ways that if you aren’t a bit of a science geek you can’t tell what they really said. If you ever read “The Other America” — written back in 1960 — you can get a feel for this. Harrington talks about how the patterns of poverty exist no matter how upstanding the people are.

    Which brings us to Perry, and rebuking single fathers/mothers. Most people have zero understanding of stats and social science. So it’s easy to see “more black single mothers” as a headline and easier to find that datum in the studies. I’ve read the things, and it’s never that easy.

    Tyler Perry assumes there is some crisis with human moral behavior, when there is really no empirical evidence for it.

    That is, it isn’t like a greater number of black people see stealing as OK or devalue education. (Though Tyler Perry seems to do the latter, evidently he thinks WEB DuBois magically acquired his knowledge or that all those people fighting for black women to get educations were trying to destroy the family).

    But TP et. al see problems in moral terms. You are rewarded for being faithful. God will take care of it. It’s all on you if you lose your job or fail. there’s no sense of societal responsibility. That’s why even though TP would say “family values” helped people survive segregation, he misses completely the rest of the thought: values help you survive, but they were no help at all in changing a thing.

    Bull Connor did not care one whit how often black people went to church. Tyler Perry doesn’t seem to get that.

  86. Nina wrote:

    I can’t stand him because he is a hypocrite!

  87. Heather wrote:

    @merq – I definitely thought about that as soon as I posted my last comment. I think the important part for me is that they are at least *more* equal opportunity than a lot of other comedy out there. I generally take the approach that everyone has biases, even those of us who claim that we don’t or who try to be fair and open-minded. But the fact is that we are all products of many different influences that shape the particular lens through which we view and experience life and entertainment. This goes for the writers of “South Park” and “Family Guy” as well; they’re going to write jokes that appeal to their sensibilities. One of the writers is Jewish, so it doesn’t surprise me that there are a lot of Jewish jokes. But I appreciate, at least, their willingness to take on a *larger* scope than a lot of other entertainment floating out there. Maybe I’m just making justifications, but I think it may be asking too much to expect them to be totally egalitarian. It is a show where the humor relies largely on being offensive and using caricature, and to be totally egalitarian seems to slide into political correctness that contradicts their particular type of humor. Just my thoughts…

  88. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @Jess (#77)–It’s not that you’re off the mark per se–and your points are quite valid–but I just think your points need a little bit more to them in order to better grasp the whats and whys Tyler Perry appeals to some and repulses others (like me). You can’t talk about those myths w/out getting how African American forms of Christianity (roles of women, anti-gay sentiments) and how internal class struggles/dialectics (becoming “educated,” views on money) within Black communities shape Perry’s narrative universe. I think if you combine what bertie (#38), JB (#52), Jaden_Loves (#53), and Miss JJ (#65) with what you said, your analysis would be more filled out, IMO.

  89. Kat wrote:

    I’m seriously tired of black men cross-dressing to play a stereotypical black woman. It’s embarrassing for the men and insulting to the women.

  90. jaden_loves wrote:

    @ jen, I stand corrected, but whether it is explicity written in the Bible is frivilous, it still stands as a common belief that traditional Christians have.

  91. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Not just the stuff that you happen not to like, but pop culture in general. If you don’t want to see your favorite stuff critiqued, go elsewhere.”

    I guess I’m strange that way. I know my entertainment sources are often problematic, and I don’t think — can’t think — that an affinity for problematic entertainment makes anyone a bad person. The inability/unwillingness to see the problems in it and acknowledge that they come from real-life imperfect cultures and have repercussions because it entertains in a certain context, OTOH…

  92. gatamala wrote:

    Winn~

    In fact, seen through an explicitly racial lens, there is a definitive connection between old “happy faithful darkies whose love of God sees them through all trials and tribulations” films like “The Green Pastures” and “Hallelujah” and Perry’s contemporary work. An emphasis on faith, community, and a certain version of “family values” is not bad in and of itself, but without counterbalancing visions of black imagery and narrative, Perry’s conceptualization of blackness becomes the prevailing one, and that is most definitelya problem.

    YES

    ADNix ~ In Madea Organizes a Community, Barack would have an affair with Sarah Palin that would remind Michelle to stay in her place. After the big soulfood dinner, they’d start a Soul Train line through the West Wing.

  93. Fiqah wrote:

    God, not to beat a dead horse and/or open the homophobic comment floodgates or anything, but TP HAS been called on being closeted by out queer PoC who endure intracommunity oppression as a consequence of living dangerous but honest lives. In light of how much of his comedy basically throws people who are out under the bus, his success irks me…glass houses and stone throwing and all of that.

  94. Eric Daniels wrote:

    La Toya, my point was to give what some of the liberal educated blacks have been giving out on blogs, speeches, bookd and call-outs on the Black Working class and Black Poor in the past few years and it seems like Ann Coulter your side can dish it out but can’t take it when someone challenges those notions. There has been a class war in Black America since the 1980’s and Chris Rock has labeled it properly in the late 90’s “NIGGAS v. Black People and from many of these posts this is just a rehashing of old stands but a different topic Tyler Perry.

    Black Film and art like our music is diverse and there is room for many interptations, but I am tired of educated Black People criticizing people like Perry and his auidence for developing a “black underground circuit” and having the intelligence and faith that if you build it “Black People Will Come” and support you,but instead of building on what Perry has done educated Blacks like many on this post are always complaining about the sterotypes and never develop their own companies to counter what Perry does.

    And La Toya, when did I say that Tyler Perry is the “end all” to Black Culture I leave you and the defenders with a classic quote from Mo Betta Blues as it goes with your opposition towards working class and poor black auidences.

    Shadow Henderson – It’s all bullsh… Everything, everything you just said is bullshit. Out of all the people in the world, you never gave anybody else, and look, I love you like a step-brother, but you never gave nobody else a chance t- to play their own music, you complain about… That’s right, the people don’t come because you grandiose motherfuckers don’t play shit that they like. If you played the shit that they like, then people would come, simple as that.

  95. Fiqah wrote:

    Also @ gatamala: ROFF!

  96. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Eric –

    1. Tyler Perry is not the person you want to fall on the cross for. You make this huge argument around a class based rejection of Tyler Perry, but never addressed August Wilson’s work which does what Tyler Perry aspires to do, but BETTER. You can go from Jitney (a play about working class cab drivers in the 1970s) to Radio Golf (about a black politician in the 90s) and still have people understand your ideas. But, as Winn outlines above, his work is not that good. Simple as that. I acknowledged that Tyler Perry has been able to build an audience. But so has Carlos Mencia. And the guy who portrays Shirley Q. Liquor. Are they all above reproach?

    2. If it was as simple as playing what people liked, Avatar the Airbender would have Asians in the cast, there wouldn’t be a reniassance in black film every 10 years that is really just a reminder that blacks watch movies, and we wouldn’t have “a latino wave” in music once a decade because they would remember there has been a Latino audience here all the while. The Roots had a good mash-up using Shadow Henderson’s quote – I’ll find it and post it when I get back.

  97. glory wrote:

    Seems to me like Eric is the one fanning the flames of the class war. I acknowledge that there is a class war and that educated/middle class black folks throw stones sometimes. That doesn’t negate the fact that TP throws stones at them in almost every depiction of upwardly mobile black folks in his stories. And everything Eric is saying smacks of, “you’re just bourgeois – you don’t know nothing about REAL black people,” like the “it’s a black thing, you wouldn’t understand” t-shirts from the late 80’s. that’s just narrow minded and simple.

    and yeah, so what if i am one of those negroes who cringes when the family puts tyler perry on. that doesn’t mean something is wrong with me, or less black about me. my blackness is not determined by my political leanings, or whether or not i still romanticize black church culture. neither does any of that speak to whether i’ve idealized white society to the detriment of my respect for the black society i’ve grown up in. but you are willing to draw that conclusion with nothing more to back it up than that i think madea is a minstrel and most tyler perry works are minstrel shows. that’s a stupid jump to make. and a criticism of tp is not by default a criticism of working class or poor blacks, just because they make up a chunk of his audiences.

    like king, i have a dream that one day all men will recognize that black culture runs a spectrum.

  98. Squidfly wrote:

    Men have been dressing up as women for over a thousand years.
    Low Comedy is the spine of humor. Within the Black Art form there is a long history of hi-art and low art.
    Tyler Perry is low humor, simple as that.
    Court Jesters were all about the low humor. Like many in the middle class, the ability to laugh at themselves has become elusive.

  99. ahimsa wrote:

    I have not read all the comments yet but the phrase describing the character Ella as “admittedly manless” jumped off the page for me. Was this phrase written with some kind of irony? Or is the original poster really putting women into two categories, “with a man” vs. “manless”?

  100. Phil Deeze wrote:

    Not to thread-hijack, but everyone should watch that special called “Badasssss” which is a survey of blaxploitation films.

    It tackles some interesting issues that we discuss here, mainly, the images shown on-screen:

    1) Who consumes them
    2) Who perpetuates them
    3) The reality of the movie images
    4) Who benefits
    5) How damaging are those images to the groups portrayed

    The question isn’t not being a maid and getting paid $7 to do it, the question is playing a maid on TV perpetuating whatever qualities (good OR bad) is written into the part and what you’re doing with the $700 you get for acting like a maid on-screen.

    This is the argument in “Hollywood Shuffle” ALL OVER AGAIN.

    “I lovededed Tommy. He was my brutha! He was my oooooonly brutha!!!!”

    “Can you laugh like Eddie Murphy? Can you be Murphonic? Do you have a Murphyesque quality?”

    “Can you grab yourself? You know. You know how they do?”

    There’s WORK at the post office! (RIP Helen Martin.)

  101. Dee Galloway wrote:

    We, Black people, are just as capable as anyone else when it comes to making money in ways that don’t negatively impact the entire community…

    I’m afraid that when it comes to TV and movies, I just don’t see this as being true much of the time. In fact, I’m hard pressed to think of anything currently in TV or “commercial” films that DOES NOT make money in ways that negatively impact the entirety of one community or another. Indeed, most of it negatively impacts of all humanity, whether it’s the work of Black people or anyone else. Exploitation is exploitation no matter who’s doing it or why.

    I happen to have no problem being typed as “bourgie” just because I read and participate in this blog, so thanks for that. I know it was meant to be an insult, but I also happen to know for a fact that, in being a liberal, educated, by implication “bourgie” black woman, I am the current fulfillment of the dreams of my parents and many of my ancestors. This is NOT to say that conservative, differently educated, “non-bourgie” (what’s the opposite of bourgie, anyway, and would I ever want to use that term?) black women are not ALSO the current fulfillment of the dreams of their parents and many of their ancestors. This is because there are many ways to survive, succeed and thrive in this so very NOT post-racial society (who in hell coined that nonsensical term anyway?) and it is the survival, the success, and the thriving that is the dream – we all, every one of us, are the fulfillment of their dream. This even includes Flava Flav and Tyler Perry.

    Nonetheless, I fail to understand how merely discussing what in pop culture does and doesn’t work for us makes any participant on this blog somehow hypocritical and by implication some type of betrayer of Blackness. I call this the old “oreo cookie” tactic, which suggests that who and what I am is inherently wrong and not black enough. This tactic had it’s maximum effect when I was in junior high in the early 70’s. It was quite painful back then – these days, not so much.

    If I say that the work of Flava Flav and Tyler Perry makes me puke as a Black woman because of the narrow portrayal of how women think, feel, and behave, where have I been hypocritical and who have I betrayed?

    And why should I have to be out there making the films to counter their messages in order to have a valid critical opinion of their work? Matching their steps, measure for measure is not the only legitimate way of countering the negative messages in their work. My guess is that Perry’s latest film will head straight to DVD where it will die a quiet death, much like Flava Flav’s “career.”

    I can take whatever folks might choose to dish out because I’m secure in the belief that ALL opinions can be valuable, even when I disagree with them.

  102. Nina wrote:

    @53
    You said ,” What I see in Madea is a protector, when people are molesting and threatening her family, she comes to the rescue and pulls out all the stops inculding a gun. On the other hand, a lot of people don’t have Madea’s in their family and we dream about someone who would show us how to throw hot grits on an abusive man. …. Madea is empowering, she is loveable, funny, and caring. We want her to be apart of our family.”

    That is contrary to the notion of TP showing people how to be “real christians”. I say TP movies are for people who want to think they are christian, but secretly love violence, revenge, gossiping and cursing as much as anyone else. Just show a lot of it, make it ridiculous, have the offenders get punished in the name of God and its all good.
    *smh*

  103. Nina wrote:

    @84
    Excellent!!!

  104. MoeHailstone wrote:

    Didn’t know I shook Eric Daniels up so much…lol What is funny seems to be how you totally missed my suggestion that Tyler Perry should find other young black writers to diversify the stories his company produces. Other black voices to tell different stories in context and delivery. And yes its about just Christian traditional values that make one feel like 1957. Thats my thought no matter how you argue the point.

    Thank God LaToya beat me to it. Black cultural art being film making, playwrites, or musicians don’t begin and end with Tyler Perry. I find a problem when those keep trying to define black people in a tiny box and if you don’t want to stay there you’re “not black” or as you put it not living in the black community. One day there are those of us that will realize how diversified we are by, sex, lifestyles, regions, and spirituality. Didn’t see how I said how a professional woman from a cosmopolitan northern city wouldn’t agree with Tyler Perry’s idea of what and how a woman should be?

    Come at me…but once you’ve read ALL that I said. There are multiple choices in this world. Tyler Perry is alot like any other film maker where their own personal views shape what stories they will tell or how they tell them. One of the choices he can make with his production company would be to help other writers get their works done telling their stories. I’m not from that old southern Christian house so my views differ from his. He’s no more right than me, but the question was about ‘his’ message…wasn’t it?

  105. MoeHailstone wrote:

    One of the sistas on here said it true and i miss “Living Single” that show along with “Girlfriends” describe what I mean about our diversity.

    Damn can you believe “Living Single” has been gone for 13yrs now???

  106. MoeHailstone wrote:

    Dee Galloway, I’m blowin’ you kisses. Very well said

  107. Keisha for Reality wrote:

    Eric Daniels said:

    “I think Tyler Perry in his films is trying to bring back those things that helped Black America endure segregation, racism, and poverty by stressing that family unity is the only salvation along with faith, education and hard work and forgiveness and an appreciation of life itself will go further than that new car or riches or college degrees. But since that goes against the post-racial worldview of many of you people who have escaped Black America to the values you rail against your families values and movies.”

    I agree with his statements that I’ve quoted 100%. While I am not a complete fan of Tyler Perry movies (the characters have zero nuance, and the writing is pretty unrealistic), I like watching them because of the values portrayed in the stories, and I think that the message that they send is one that successful Black Americans ignore at their peril. If we don’t have strong families, our community will never do better with respect to socioeconomic outcomes that we continue to lag other racial groups in. And (bring on the flames!), I think that Black women have a bigger responsibility to shoulder more of the burden – to work harder inside and outside of the home, and to work at making their husbands feel respected and appreciated – because we’ve faced less discrimination than our husbands in this country, and because men have the need to feel respected and ‘masculated’ more than women do. (Like I said, bring on the flames!)

    I also would like to point out that I am a Ph.D.-pursuing, Ivy-league black woman who is engaged to be married to a white man in a non-black church. Just mentioned that to say that (1) we are not a monolithic group either, and that agreeing with the values espoused by Tyler Perry and Eric Daniels doesn’t mean that you reject the value of diversity and integration, and (2) just because you’re in an interracial relationship doesn’t mean you believe in some post-racial fantasy…

  108. yesand... wrote:

    wow…so tyler perry got a boatload of comments…

    to me, TP’s (same initials as toilet paper…hm.)
    work doesn’t do a good job of preaching to anyone but the choir. Similar to shows like 24, it does a bad job of being an effective piece of propaganda. Everybody knows the producers of 24 advocate torture, and at this point, it’s a running joke. Same with the Passion of the Christ, which was a disgusting display of violence (more than even Rambo) also with a white jesus that had pearly white teeth in 23 BC…(God bogarted the toothpaste only for nordic-looking palestinians apparently).

    I don’t think anyone gets convinced that any of the messages are true in any of these examples.

    the single black women who identify with TP’s movies love them because they validate the women’s experiences, and make it ok that they aren’t married or dating or happy with themselves. Like others have said (too many posts to quote here (sorry)), he capitalizes on the power of SBF despair, which the church also does by the way.

    @Keisha – so, he stresses family through scenes of domestic and sexual abuse, stresses faith by poking at the target audiences pain with a hot poker, and then having the characters go to church…(AHEM TD JAKES), and promotes “hard work” by dressing in drag as a “mammy” stereotype to make DOUGH?

    I don’t know what movies you’ve been watching, but TP is just as bad as Creflo Dollar (CRE-ate FLO-w of DOLLARs), getting these people to buy their placebo wisdom to line their pockets, instead of really educating/helping them with their struggles.

    Well, as PT Barnum once said, a sucker is born every minute. I for one refuse to pay someone to reinforce my own self-hatred, but that’s only because i was fortunate to have a decent education.

  109. Hibbs4Prez wrote:

    If liking Tyler Perry’s films proves one is “really black” then this is one African American male who wil have to hand over all my black privileges

  110. deathblossom wrote:

    “I think that Black women have a bigger responsibility to shoulder more of the burden – to work harder inside and outside of the home, and to work at making their husbands feel respected and appreciated – because we’ve faced less discrimination than our husbands in this country, and because men have the need to feel respected and ‘masculated’ more than women do.”

    Damn, it feels good to be a lesbian. Practice this ideology if you want to, but don’t come crying when you’re burnt out with nothing to show for it but a deadbeat husband and a bunch of babies. I mean, seriously. We should work harder inside and outside of the home, busting our ass making shit work, and then tell our husbands it’s all thanks to him so he can feel like he did shit? Wow. Yeah, you definitely need less respect if this is your plan because it shows you have absolutely zero of it for yourself. I also find it hilarious that you say we’ve been discriminated against less than our husbands…but then defend your agreement with Erin by saying you’re engaged to a heterosexual white man, the least discriminated against being on this Earth. But I suppose you meant our “black” husbands and in that case, if you feel so strongly that it is the Black Woman’s Burden to prop up the Black Man, why don’t you go find one to marry and prop him up then?

    “Family values” do not require religion to go along with them and for some of us, family goes beyond the heterosexual mode. It often even includes getting an education. I can’t be the only one from modest backgrounds whose education came not in defiance of my parents and desire to break away from Black America, but out of respect for my family’s wishes to better myself and take advantage of the opportunities that they could not.

  111. Jonee' Ansa wrote:

    How come when we talk about the character Mudear, we never admitted that mudear was a character that appeared in my wife’s novel Ugly Ways in 1993, way before Tyler Perry used the character folks… why do we not talk about that?
    “Ugly Ways” a novel by Tina McElroy Ansa, published 1993
    Ugly Ways is about: Three sexy, screwed-up Southern sisters come home to Mulberry to put their totally self-centered mother, Mudear, in her grave.
    Look it up, and at least say something about Tina’s “Mudear”

    Jonee’ Ansa
    DownSouth Filmworks

  112. Kendra wrote:

    Ansa,

    I didn’t know that your wife had written that novel; I wasn’t even aware of a second character named Mudear. I’m curious now. “Ugly Ways’ and several of your wife’s other novels are in one of my school’s libraries so I’ll check it out to do a proper comparison.

    Perhaps that story lines up well with Madea’s bio in Tyler Perry’s book.

  113. Dee Galloway wrote:

    @deathblossom:

    “Family values” do not require religion to go along with them and for some of us, family goes beyond the heterosexual mode. It often even includes getting an education. I can’t be the only one from modest backgrounds whose education came not in defiance of my parents and desire to break away from Black America, but out of respect for my family’s wishes to better myself and take advantage of the opportunities that they could not.

    Can another black lesbian just chime in and say “Amen! True dat!

  114. Regina wrote:

    I like and appreciate these post especially your’s “yesand” and “Keisha for Reality” …but Wow! I think the comments here are a little harsh toward T.P. I am sorry, but I don’t necessarily feel that T.P. is demeaning to black women/men any more than some of the white movie writers portrayal of blacks (and other people of color) in general.
    I actually applaud Tyler for bringing some of the (very) real issue’s in black communities, such as “crack-head” mama’s, teen pregnancy, divorce, post-partum depression, sexual abuse, etc to the forefront of television. However, I agree with many of you that his “method” of delivery frequently takes away from his well intentioned ( I believe) message. And for the record, I don’t think T.P.’s work is comparable to Flavor of Love, puleeeaze!!! LOL! Well , except for the new show, Meet the Browns… that is “bufoonery” (sp?) at its finest!!

  115. Lori wrote:

    I’m constantly amazed at how worked up folks can get in their critique of Tyler Perry’s films. For me, the depiction of Blk women is just as problematic, if not more so, in the flicks of filmmakers like Craig Brewer and Spike Lee, the latter of whom I doubt could create a realistic sketch of a grown azz Blk woman if his life depended on it. Fortunately, for him, it obviously doesn’t (smile).

    Yet and still, I routinely support Spike’s work at the box office, applaud him for what he gets right/does well and I appreciate his many strengths as a storyteller/filmmaker (I just don’t think depicting Blk women happens to be one of them). On the other hand, Craig Brewer’s work contains some of the most disturbing and demeaning stereotypes of Blk women and men that I’ve ever encountered on film, but I’ve yet to see his work ripped with the same zeal and passion as Perry’s.

    I guess it’s all about choices and mindsets. Some of the same people outraged by the sight of Perry in a dress or who find something incredibly distasteful about his comic portrayal of an elderly, gun-toting, pot-smoking Blk woman, have no problem with a perm-wearing pimp, who raps about “whopping dat trick” or the “sexually liberated” Blk woman in Lee’s She’s Gotta Have It, who receives her comeuppance in the rape scene near the movie’s end.

    I’m saying, choose your poison. For the most part, it’s all mindless entertainment.

  116. Michelle wrote:

    Lori said
    “I’m saying, choose your poison. For the most part, it’s all mindless entertainment.”

    I think that what people are arguing is that “mindless entertainment” does not mean that it is “harmless entertainment”.

    The reason why people “rip” into Mr. Perry is because there are many people who feel that his movies, along with their success, are actually measurably detrimental to the Black community. More specifically, to Black artists, who have to fight that much harder because of Mr. Perry’s body of work.

    I can’t speak for Mr. Brewer, but there is strong evidence to support that Spike Lee has ushered in many different Black film makers, many of whom have differing artistic visions. Spike Lee has at least shown to the larger establishment that Black people as a whole are capable of handling nuance and, well, art.

    Mr. Ansa, I am a true fan of your wife’s work. “Baby of the Family” is one of my favorite books in the world. However, I always understood that Mudear was a common term within the Black community for mother or grandmother or any matriarch. I never thought that he was lifting his character from your wife’s work. However, I do see that it is important to understand that there are artists out there who are using our cultural landscape as their inspiration to a much better end result than Mr. Perry.

  117. Hibbs4Prez wrote:

    Lori, I don’t think most people (black, white or otherwise) even know who Craig Brewer is in the first place. That said I’ll take his work over Perry’s. Brewer is a REAL filmmaker. Perry may direct folks from behind a camera but he is not a filmmaker at all. None of his shots are interesting, his story telling technique is clunky at best and his actors/actresses deliver safe by the number performances. I got tired of black folks doing their same old complaints about “positive” images when Hustle & Flow came out. I don’t care about positive as much as I do “interesting”. Terrence Howard got to play a flawed, troubled anti-hero and got to display a wide range of depth as an actor. Much more so than he does in positive flicks like that swimming movie he did a couple of years back. I don’t care that he played a pimp. As long as the film did not glamorize the prostitution business or make it look like a fun type of “job industry” to join (I’m looking at you, rap videos and “Pretty Woman”) then its fine with me. Society does not whine about great actors playing mafia leaders even though those guys cause much more harm in our societies than even pimps do. By the way Tarji Henson was much more interesting and impressive in both Hustle & Flow and Talk to Me than as the almost typical, stereotypical, no-nonsense mammy in Benjamin Button that she was just nominated for. In my opinion while I understand the need for positive reinforcement for black audiences, the truth is most of our stars are not playing crooks, pimps, slaves, hookers, maids, etc. They are playing mostly heroes and heroines, people who stay on the right path. Unfortunately they are also playing two dimensional characters at best who don’t have the depth that you see for white actors in the Oscar caliber roles (Guys like Jamie Foxx. Forest Whitaker and Denzel who won Best Actor Awards this decade at the Oscars won for roles that had little of the depth or complexity that Daniel Day Lewis’s character did in “There Will Be Blood”). I may be in the minority here but Howard’s in ways despicable character in H&F got to show more layers, complexities and faces than any of the black men who did win Academy Awards this decade. Just my opinion.

    My biggest disappointment with Brewer was when I learned he was white. And that’s because I was hoping a talented black filmmaker had arrived on the scene. Although I do have some issues with Brewer’s second flick (Black Snake Moan—a movie in which the characters with the so-called negative traits were primarily or exclusively the white characters), overall I really like Brewer. Based upon his work, his interviews, his upbringing he seems legit. By that I mean as a black male I feel he has a true appreciation, love for black people, especially black guys. That makes him different from a fraud like Tarantino who likes to exploit black culture but doesn’t have any use for black people (or at least not black males) in primary roles in his films. The only black lead he ever had was Pam Grier and that’s not good enough for me, especially how increasingly cartoonish and insignificant his black male characters have gotten since “Pulp Fiction”.

    By the way Brewer has only done two films which rely heavily on black characters. Perry has done more than a half dozen . So of course no one was going to bring up him in this conversation when comparing his work and characters to Perry’s. Spike Lee? Sure we can make that comparison with Perry. But not Brewer.

    Anyway…I think one thing that got typically lost in this discussion is that, as a few folks pointed out, Perry’s movies didn’t just put down black women. Black men in his films aren’t any better. I was turned off immediately by the black guy who dropped his loyal wife for I believe a white woman (you know despite al the complaints about this in black culture this happens so little its not really worth all the fuss over). That was stereotypical and over the top. And the guy was such a one-note. Plus before Idris Elba in “Daddy’s Little Girls” it seemed that all the Bad black men in his films were dark skinned. Black women here are being a little narrow in their focus or in their attention to only notice how black women don’t come off that well in his flicks. And as one dude wrote earlier in this post Perry’s films were targeted towards black women anyway and females have been his biggest supporters. So some of the blame must go towards them IMO. It amazes me that black ladies still support him. Then again it surprises me that black guys support Tarantino.

  118. Faith wrote:

    “And (bring on the flames!), I think that Black women have a bigger responsibility to shoulder more of the burden – to work harder inside and outside of the home, and to work at making their husbands feel respected and appreciated – because we’ve faced less discrimination than our husbands in this country, and because men have the need to feel respected and ‘masculated’ more than women do. (Like I said, bring on the flames!)”

    I honestly don’t get this sentiment. I’ve talked to women in my family about this and they say the same thing. It’s as if we don’t have to deal with sexism from black men as well as sexism from men from other races in addition to racism in American society. To say that black men have it so much harder in American society 1) negates the fact that black men still have male privilege and 2) makes the oppression of black women seem minuscule compared to black men.

    I don’t think black men are “less oppressed” than black women and I acknowledge some gender specific issues (incarceration rates, college attendance, etc.). Still, I don’t think black women have to sacrifice ourselves or forget our very real issues just because black men deal with some specific issues as well. Why does there has to be an oppression Olympics between black men and black women? Why can’t we just support each other without saying that one has it tougher than the other?

    This is definitely one of my gripes with TP. The “good women” in his films are always sacrificing for their men.