Quoted: Gwen Ifill on the Question of (Biracial) Identity

Excerpted by Latoya Peterson

Biracial breakthroughs have come to occupy an entirely different plane of identity. Obama and other breakthrough politicians such as Maryland lieutenant governor Anthony Brown and Washington, D.C. mayor Adrian Fenty are biracial but identify as black. Still, many white voters are clearly more comfortable thinking of them as half-white.

Do you choose to believe a thoughtful man such as actor Don Cheadle, who told Harvard historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. in the PBS documentary African American Lives, “You are what you have to defend?” (As James McBride, a biracial writer put it: “If cops see me, they see a black man sitting in a car.”) Or should we listen instead to a thoughtful man such as Harvard law professor Randall Kennedy, who argues that black identity is a choice, especially for biracial achievers such as Tiger Woods?

—The Breakthrough, p. 166

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Comments

Jess wrote:

Or to put the question posed in the post (by Ifill) another way: why should the idea of racial identity being choice and/or imposed be mutually exclusive?

They aren’t. The most obvious example is Tiger Woods. If he were walking down the street in a black neighborhood he wouldn’t look out of place. So most folks would say “that’s a black man.” I have to say i didn’t think any different when I first saw him either. (I knew nothing of his ancestry).

But if you ask him the answer will be more complicated.

I really can’t understand why people talk about identities like little boxes that we are either in or we are not. Life doesn’t work like that.

This doesn’t mean that people are always free to choose in every situation. Life isn’t fair either, and nobody should expect it to be. (You could get struck by lightning or hit by a bus, and the guy serving you coffee could be a Klansman. Fair isn’t part of the equation).

But has nobody learned the words “false dichotomy?” That’s what Ifill is presenting here.

Sometimes I think even talking about “biracial” people is a little misleading. Not because I buy the kum-bay-yah thing that says “we are all one race” — race is pretty well understood as a social category with no physical meaning by anyone wiho has the slightest understanding of biology.

But it’s misleading because I always get the sense that it conflates physicality and culture in a way that rarely fits reality. People on this blog post about that kind of fluidity all the time.

There’s a very funny experiment I heard years back when there was the whole discussion of “ebonics.” The radio station played a tape of a girl speaking, and asked people to say if she was black or white. Everybody got it wrong — she was white (Italian I think) from Camden, (NJ).

That’s an extreme example. But still, I think it shows how fluid many of these categories are.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 10:12 am ¶
CVT wrote:

My thoughts on this remain the same: biracial identity is a little more fluid than other racial identities.

Obama, for instance, is a biracial black man.

Most of the time, others will see him as (and treat him as) simply black, and so he lives the black experience. However, his background and family is NOT solely black, and so he also lives the biracial experience. It really can be both ways – and it drives me crazy how so few people understand that (or are even willing to try).

And, really – when did Tiger Woods become just biracial? Last I checked, he’s got more than just two ethnicities to his mix . . .

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 10:51 am ¶
Futurebird wrote:

Part of what irritates me as a black person about identifying people with one white and one black parent as “bi-racial” or “mixed race” or “half-____” is that lots and lots and lots of black people are half-black or 1/4th white or 5/16ths black or… etc.

But some how our mixed heritage isn’t important unless it’s recent. And before you say “but you don’t have the impact of a white parent” — those white great grand parents and grandparents have an impact. Due to the prejudices of the time not always a positive one but still. I just don’t see the difference.

Then there is the matter of how it seems Obama is being called “half-white” now that he’s in the lead– I don’t know if it is intentional but it feels like the prize is being snack from us when people do that. Everything we do that’s good is attributed to our whiteness… the bad to the blackness.

It like the teach I had who said that I seemed very light and perhaps that’s why I have such an analytical personality.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:10 am ¶
Natalie wrote:

I’m actually attending a lecture with Gwen Ifill and Michelle Norris from NPR on Jan 27th@ the 92nd street Y… I absolutely adore Washington Week with Gwen Ifill and I’m intrigued to hear more of her perspective on the presidential race and politics up close and personal. I don’t know if I necessarily agree with Randall Kennedy.. I mean the racial makeup of America is changing vastly but biracial or not.. when someone sees someone who may have both a black and a white parent they automatically assume “black” as the default race. I don’t think everyone who has this background automatically chooses black as the race to identify with. I think that decision may have a lot of influence by who the person was surrounded by most of their lives (single parent household, peers) and of course the culture that was most taught in the household.. there are many factors and its not as cut and dry as some may think. Just my 2 cents.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:12 am ¶
Jenn wrote:

Interesting. Identity must fall somewhere between – a balance between internal cultural experience and external stereotypes enforced by society. My husband is Indonesian (south east Asia), but most people he meets in the US assume he is Latino (brown skin, long hair, I guess). So in his day-to-day life, he deals with the stereotypes associated with being Latino – which are vastly different than those of being Asian in the US. Although, he certainly does not self-identify as Latino (grew up in Asia), his experiences in the US are different from his Chinese decent Indonesian friends who conform more closely to American expectations of how Asians should look. So, I guess my point is you can’t escape experiencing the repercussions of how society perceives your identity, yet your own cultural background also has a profound role in shaping your own self-identity. Obviously this would be a much more complex experience for someone who is biracial and grew-up in the US.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:39 am ¶
Lola wrote:

I think people have a right to self identify.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:52 am ¶
jen* wrote:

Shoot, I have defend my right to choose whether I am who I have to defend or whether my identity is a choice. [if that even makes sense]

When they made me choose between white or black on my driver’s license, I chose black – since I know that’s what people see. But a friend of mine (also b/w mix) chose to ID as white on his license. We look like brother and sister [almost twins, actually].

I tend to ID as black to keep the conversation short. People who know me get to know my story. They get to know that I am black and I am white. In fact, I tend to choose that over biracial. I don’t know why.

To me, race is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. It wouldn’t even need to mean anything at all if people weren’t treated differently because of it. But since we *are* treated differently based on perception, the way that others perceive you [IMO] has more bearing on things.

If Don Cheadle declared that he was white or biracial [not that he is], because that’s how he identified, what difference would it make? My friend [the one who looks like me], is ambiguous-looking, but very obviously brown [as am I]. If, in the classic example, he is followed in his car by the police (as he was this past wknd, actually), they wouldn’t know he ID’d as white until they actually stopped him and asked for the license. And there’s no telling if they’d believe him then.

And maybe it’s just cuz I live where I do [SC] – but most of the people I know don’t care *how* Tiger IDs. He’ll always be black to them. For better or worse.

So I guess I disagree with Kennedy. Self-identification is great, but it almost takes a hammer to get people to honor your choice. Maybe I should just pick up my hammer, but I feel like it’s more practical to go with the label that sticks, and let people who actually *care* know the real you. Tough question.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 12:00 pm ¶
Rona wrote:

Thanks for posting this. I love Don Cheadle even more for that quote. Although I’m not biracial, being a Filipino-American who sometimes gets mistaken for being Latina or Black or what-have-you, I totally feel that sentiment. Also, living in a multi-racial, largely immigrant (and formerly mostly Black) city make a difference in my experience, because whiteness is not the automatic non-black definition.

It seems like the key thing to remember is that for some of us, many of us people of color, this is not so much a choice that we can make without any outside influence, it is about what people perceive us as and therefore how they treat us and what we must respond to. As opposed to my biracial friends who can ‘pass’, then racial ‘choice’ is more at play and I admire the ones that choose to identify with being a person of color because that is then a political choice, with consequences (and yes, rewards, in terms of culture or community and self-fulfillment) that can be difficult.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 12:02 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

When we have these conversation I sometimes feel that people are dancing around the issue of “choice” — Unless a person is very very very light-skinned there isn’t much of a choice in the US. You are viewed as black end of story. I know people who are Mexican and black, they are also viewed as black. I know people who are Chinese and black– again they are viewed as black.

Now that’s not to say that they see themselves this way– They maybe even describe themselves in other terms that is their right– but they face the same prejudice I do as black person. And no about of proclaiming their heritage can change that.

I think it is uncomfortable to realize that we can’t just control our identities and “be what we want to be” –the way the majority see us matters. If we were in control we might already be living in that post-racial America I keep hearing about.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 12:06 pm ¶
Monie wrote:

Being Black and Bi-Racial in America is different than being anything else racially.

There is a historic component that a lot of people ignore or don’t get. That is until very recently a Black Bi-racial person was Black by law.

Also since that was a law imposed and enforced by Whites most Black Bi-Racial people felt their acceptance from Black people. This is why so many Black Bi-Racial people embrace their Blackness as they do; Ann Coulter obviously didn’t do her homework or she would have understood this when commenting on Alicia Keys and Halle Berry.

The only exception to this historical racial classification was those Black Bi-Racial people who could and chose to “pass” for White. And their lives many times ended-up with them never feeling like they fit anywhere.

So the luxury of a Black Bi-Racial person acknowledging their Whiteness as well as Blackness is a relatively new occurrence in America.

Thusly people are just beginning to examine what cultural acceptance of Black and White Bi-‘Racialness’ really means.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 12:15 pm ¶
Renee wrote:

What I always notice about these conversations about bi racial identities is that they have a tendency to support the black/white binary understanding of race. If it is black and Latin@ or Black and Asian it is still an interracial relationship producing a bi-racial child. The interactions of Latin@ and white children with systemic racism if often overlooked in a desire to present race as existing as a choice between white and black. All bi-racial bodies regardless of the mixture must negotiate a white world.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 12:29 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:

Interesting topic. I think for everyone there is always a dichotomy between the way they see themselves and the way the world sees them and it is always magnified when you are a person of color. So often white people are allowed to be many things and fewer automatic assumptions are made about them and what their background must be than the rest of us. Unfortunately for bi-racial or multi-racial people, especially if they are raised by whites and learn by osmosis almost that to a certain degree to expect a little more of that autonomy in defining themselves, people look at them assume what race they are based on what they look like and pigeon hole them accordingly. So it is unlikely for someone to look at anyone who looks black and think, that is a half-black-half white person or a half-black-half-Chineese, or half-Chineese-half -Latino. Whatever “race” looks more dominant is the one that gets attention as do all of the stereotypes that go along with that race. In Obama and Tiger Woods case whatever their backgrounds people look at them and see black. It may not be fair, especially not for Tiger who I think is only 1/4 black or something like that when his various ethnicities are included, but that is how it is and that is life. If you are a 6′5 inch guy who wears 280 pounds people are going to assume you are tough and possibly mean, even if you are as gentle and untough as the day is long, and if you are black well… lots of people will assume you are all sorts of negative things and the 6′5 guy and the black person (or perceived to be black person) can’t change that no matter what they feel inside or know the truth about their real racial/ethnic background to be.

To further my point, I had a friend in college who was half-Indian (Asian not Native American) and half Puerto-Rican but looked more Indian and had an Indian last name. Many people assumed she was Indian, and she said that when she told some British Indian friends of her Indian cousins (we were on a semester in the UK)that she was Puerto-Rican also and identified with that aspect of herself more, they told her she was in denial and didn’t know who she was. She also said that her Indian cousins didn’t trust her and always thought she was up to something and her Puerto Rican cousins thought she was a joke and too Indian. In the one class we had together the Professor did a racial breakdown of the class and told her she looked to be vaugely Mongoloidish!! She said she didn’t even want to explain what she was to him b/c he was too ignorant based on that comment to understand. It was hard for her and seemed like she was really having problems having her true identity accepted based solely on what she looked to be, not on who she was on the inside.

On another note, I find it really disingenous the number of white people and others who are running around saying they are upset that people are calling Obama black when he is really half-white. If they were alive at the time were they mad in the past when anyone with a drop of black blood was considered black and subject to segregation laws? Where they mad that Strom Thurmond’s biracial daughter always had to live as a black person and go to black schools and no one ever recognized her as a white woman? If they were upset by that, then ok, but that isn’t where most of them are coming from. Bi-racial people who have black ancestry were always considered black, even if they didn’t look black but people knew their family was black, and now they want to change the rules? I can sympathize with people who are bi-racial who want to identify as both but I don’t sympathize with people who are not bi-racial who fake outrage that a half-black, half-white man who has always been treated by the larger world as a black man, is being called black. Especially since he calls him self a black man who had a white mother and is of half-white ancestry.

Sorry for the long ramble, I’ve had a crazy morning and my mind is all over the place.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 1:24 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@Lisa J

“It may not be fair, especially not for Tiger who I think is only 1/4 black or something like that when his various ethnicities are included, but that is how it is and that is life.”

I think you reconcile this but this is nothing “new” many black people have multi-racial heritage. I think Tiger looks pretty Chinese (whatever that means) the things is blackness has been consider to be so bad that even a little bit of it “looks like” a lot. I think that the way we see people is, in this way, still distorted.

There are many many many black people who have multiracial heritages– is there any movement to recognize this? Should there be?

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 1:44 pm ¶
Nora wrote:

I think you definitely do have a bit of white privilege if you’re biracial. As I biracial person, when I go out with my Dad, people definitely trust me more, or think I’m smarter and should be talked to, even though I’m younger than he is. It’s okay to acknowledge that there is not one oppressing group (whites) and one oppressed group (everyone else). There are different levels of oppression.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 2:14 pm ¶
Kavita wrote:

As a “bi-racial” person myself, I get so aggravated by the way this issue gets discussed most of the time (not here). People refer to biracial people as half ____ and half ______, as if racial groups are clean, distinct, biological categories, when of course we know they are not. Intro to Race 101: Race is a social construction!! Not a biological or scientific or genetic category. As a kid we used to joke in my family about what half was what. Was the top half Indian, or the bottom half? The left or the right half? So-called mixed race people are not half anything—we are whole people with interesting, multicultural family trees—just like most people in the world, whether they are “officially” one race or not. Our racial/ethnic identities are mostly shaped, I think, by our experiences in the world and our choices. My experience of being an Indian woman (which is how I identify, white mama notwithstanding) and a single mother is different from my Indian cousin who grew up in England and is a doctor, just like hers is different from aunt who has spent her entire life in India as is a housewife. President Obama’s (oh, I love saying that!) experience of being a Black man is different from Rodney King’s, or Will Smith’s, or Plaxico Buress’. But I don’t think one experience should be privileged as more authentic than the next.

Cosign with CVT–we can be more than one thing at once! I’ve been the privileged light-skinned law student as well as the degraded single mother/WOC at the welfare office–all in the same day! I’m reminded of the Fitzgerald quote Latoya posted: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”

Another cosign with Lisa J on the white people who are suddenly mad that Obama’s Black. Not a word during slavery and Jim Crow, but NOW y’all show up? Please.

Loving Cheadle’s quote “You are what you have to defend.”

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 2:49 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:

@ Futurebird, I didn’t say it was new in that sentence, didn’t imply that it was new and didn’t comment on it one way or another as being new, old, or anything else so I didn’t reconcile it later b/c there was nothing to reconcile.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 3:05 pm ¶
Nina wrote:

My social and my personal identity don’t match. I’m ok with having multiple identities.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 3:39 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:

Who are these white people that are running around claiming Barack Obama by insisting he is “half white”? I have literally never heard this argument.

I’m not trying to be provocative: I am really asking. Because in my experience white people looove the fact that Obama is black because then they get to say things like “he is the promise of our country realized.” Republicans, who would have died before voting for the man love to say this–usually as the preface to an implied post-racial America argument– but I have heard it from white liberals too. In a perverse way his blackness flatters them because it confirms their own inherent goodness.

In my world the only people who ever raise Obama’s biracial heritage (besides the man himself) are African Americans.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 4:33 pm ¶
k.a. wrote:

@Renee

I am consistently disappointed in this blog’s posts about biracial individuals, because I feel excluded, even though I’m half Mexican/half white. It really makes me feel like my struggles don’t really count, because I could easily pass for white. While I recognize being half Mexican and being half Black are two entirely different experiences, with completely different sets of prejudices, I still feel marginalized when I read posts like these. Thank you for the post you linked to.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 5:16 pm ¶
ambre wrote:

co-sign with Kavita -
Huge pet peeve of mine too that mixed folk are divided into neat little compartments all properly labeled and defined as such. I also would like to emphasize that we cannot define one racial experience as the deciding factor on whether or not one is allowed to identify as such. It’s way more complicated then “everyone sees me as ______” In my case “everyone sees me as” a whole laundry list of different racial categories, so does that mean I should identify as all of those things? Of course “how others see you” has an effect on you, but doesn’t solely define your identity.

I find that people who refuse to accept my mixed identity do so because they’ve never had to think about/deal with such a situation in their own life. It’s easier to break things down to “check one box” and deny all other ties because that’s what people know. It’s somehow incomprehensible that someone could have a more complex experience.

Unfortunately we will continue to face a great deal of people who will only view us as whatever preconceived notion they have, regardless of any explanation. And I agree that sometimes you just have to pick your battles – but if I just went around identifying whichever way whoever I’m around sees fit, then how will things ever change? Accepting the status quo won’t make the issue go away.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 5:24 pm ¶
9jah wrote:

@ Jen

I concur. Since race is a perception based construct anyway, it makes sense that perception at least factor into the determination of how a we discuss this issue. I think that ultimately identity is a choice for biracial people and I think the initial point buttresses the argument for a person who chooses to be either.

@ Futurebird (.9)

I concur. What gets lost in this argument is that it was the lack of a choice that actually brought about the racial labels and its implications. For instance, in many parts of Africa and the carribean there is no racial identity at all. Ideally, we would want to all be assessed in terms of our personal identity and not a racial identity. When the right to self-identification operates thusly then we can all agree that perception is irrelevant.

@ Monie

I concur. What bugs me to no end is the fact that the historical component of this is just automatically dismissed and the people whose real sacrifices have allowed for Barack’s success are portrayed as just stupid.

The interesting thing is there are biracial people who black people don’t call black and white people don’t think of as black. i.e. slash from Guns N’ Roses. I think culture has more to do with even the labeling than people acknowledge.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 5:39 pm ¶
Casual Observer wrote:

Why is it that when a biracial person does well, Whites want to take credit for them? However, at any other time, they are classified as Black. Why the hypocrisy?

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 7:01 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“I think you reconcile this but this is nothing “new” many black people have multi-racial heritage. I think Tiger looks pretty Chinese (whatever that means) the things is blackness has been consider to be so bad that even a little bit of it “looks like” a lot. I think that the way we see people is, in this way, still distorted.”

I think that the criteria for who “looks” black is much more permissive than the criteria for a white or Asian appearance precisely because so many black people who have multiracial heritage have been categorized as indisputably black for so long. For instance, Obama looks like a regular black person to your average American of any race. But if you look at his parents, it’s obvious that he occupies a phenotypical midpoint between them — a midpoint that in say, Brazil, Cuba, or Egypt, may place him in a different racial category than, say, Don Cheadle. I think the idea that black features are “naturally more dominant” is an American pecularity and a result of ODR. If you dropped Tiger Woods into the Phillippines, Cambodia, or Indonesia, he wouldn’t stand out all that much. But, it’s definitely the reality of the system of racial classification over here that if you look even a little bit black, yet identify differently, you’ll be forced to defend, defend, defend, your self-identification, and I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to deal with that all of their lives. And contrary to the beliefs of those (not specifically pointing to anyone in particular) who want to paint black people as the sole gatekeepers, the challenges would come from all corners.

Furthermore, isn’t it troubling that biracial (specifically B/Non-black) identity may be a choice for, not all biracial people, but only the most successful ones? It seems like Brazil’s system, where the more money you get, the less you’re percieved as black or indigenous, even among people with the exact same type of lineage/phenotype as some favela inhabitants.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 7:04 pm ¶
Michelle wrote:

@ 15. I feel you about the way that we always talk about race and more specifically Bi-raciality (is that a word) in very binary terms. Black and White. I can understand your frustration, because perhaps it seems that your experience is always relegated to the sideline of what it means to be Bi-racial in America. So I can understand how maddening that must be at times.

However, if it helps, this particular post was set up that way from the beginning. The quote was from Gwen Ifill and the issue that the quote was dealing with was Black and White biracial identity. Also, with our President Elect about to take office, and many people (non-Black people) clamoring on about how is White, or at least calling into question whether or not he is the first Black president, then it stands to reason that we are continuing the conversation in such strict binary terms.

Also, race in America was constructed in those binary terms. Jim Crow was an institution that was strictly formed within our binary view of race. It seems to me that the destruction of segregation and similar institutions was based on a Black/White discussion. To be more specific, while it was about human rights, the civil rights movement had to be seen as a Black issue since Blacks were at the heart of the matter.

I think that moving toward seeing people as human in America, and not just as their individual races will take a similar track. The binary view is so ingrained in the American definitions race that I think that it will only be destroyed from that same point of view.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 7:20 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

Only in America…*sigh*

People have the right to self-identify whatever way they choose. How other people view you shouldn’t matter as much as how you view yourself because trust me, there’s enough B.S to go around. Sure, you MIGHT be accepted, but at the same time you get hit with the “not Black/Asian/whatever enough” stick constantly (when you’re not being beat with the “TOO Black/Asian/Whatever” stick, that is. :/).

It’s like being invited to a house party. The host might say “Come on in, make yourself at home!” but when the majority of other partygoers are on the other side of the room whispering about you and questioning why you are there you sure as hell don’t feel comfortable. Sure, you’re in the house…but to say people are rolling out the welcome mat is stretching it.

So more and more biracial people are saying “Fuck it, I don’t want to go to EITHER party; I’m picking up my marbles and making a home for myself. I have some sticks and some cloth and I’m going to make a nice tent over here; and if you want to come and hang out with me, fine. If not, keep going because I don’t need you to validate how I feel about myself any longer.”

And now the party people from both houses are bitching because your ass is sitting outside in a tent doing your own thing instead of inside asking for acceptance that is begrudgingly given if at all. Ok.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 7:36 pm ¶
bothandneither wrote:

it seems like it’s also a question of ownership over successful multi-racial people.

when they “succeed” (especially in white-saturated fields) everybody wants them on “their” side.

what happens to the ones that aren’t achievers?
i don’t think many people care.

@DivergentDana -> yes, it’s about the cash. I also noticed in slumdog millionare that the actors who played the characters got lighter as they got older and further from the slums.

i know the black intellectuals love it when a black person “achieves”, but i hate how they make the black/african experience in america all about “beating white people at their own game” by becoming “more like them”. I remember watching the recent 60 minutes piece on Jean Forte, as he recanted his father’s take on his success as a musician. He said “you know you’ve made it when they don’t see the color of your skin, they see the man.”

secretly, he’s talking about “making it” as being accepted by white people. I feel like that’s what this whole discussion is about. How white people see you is the most important part of your identity…like Don Cheadle said it without saying “the cop” was white.

it’s silently about the white gaze…the white judge…the white eye. How they compare themselves with their “opposite” -> black people.
As with Tiger, his other heritage is thrown aside for the black and the white parts. Anything beyond grayscale is inconsequential to his value/class/status.

And whoever said that black identity is a choice must secretly wish it was a choice. what an educated fool. what he really means is just what Wyclef’s father said. When you have enough money, it’s a choice, or at least it’s not at the forefront, because you’re not just some face in the crowd. If you’re white, you’re “a person”, but if your black, you’re a “black person.” Until you make enough legitimate money, or achieve fame that is.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 8:01 pm ¶
Titanis walleri wrote:

“Part of what irritates me as a black person about identifying people with one white and one black parent as “bi-racial” or “mixed race” or “half-____” is that lots and lots and lots of black people are half-black or 1/4th white or 5/16ths black or… etc.”
iirc, supposedly almost all black people in America have at least some white ancestors (and I’d imagine the reverse is true as well, albeit presumably to lesser extent)…

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 8:23 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@Joseph

http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/10398.html?thread=287902#t287902

see “And what race is Obama’s mother?” I get this all the time.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 8:29 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@Kaonashi

Do you think that all black people with multi-racial heritage should be more vocal about it? Most of us have multiracial heritage. In fact, I’d like to know anyone’s thoughts on this question.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 8:34 pm ¶
Gen wrote:

I agree with those who posted saying that it’s not one or the other, but both at the same time. For me personally the the split between outside perception and self-identification can be really frustrating, although my experience is the reverse of the one described above–I’m biracial, half-Japanese, half-Ashkenazi Jew; but most people I encounter tend to think that I look ‘white’ (I have light skin, freckles, curly hair) and are often surprised to find out that I’m half-Asian. The people who do recognize me as mixed are, surprise, usually mixed-race themselves. I personally don’t identify with one half over the other; I think of myself as biracial or as both equally (and I do consider myself Asian American); it bothers me a lot when people ignore or discredit my Japanese side. At the same time, though, I have to acknowledge that because of how I look, I do experience white privilege, and my lived experience of race is influenced by this. And because I know that, I sometimes worry that the way I feel myself being perceived by others–that I’m not really or not authentically ‘Asian’ because I ‘look white’ or am ‘culturally white’–is valid; and feeling that way makes me angry. I know that my position is very different from that of biracial or multiracial people who get automatically labeled as black, or any non-white minority group, based on their appearance: other people’s perceptions afford me privilege, not discrimination. But I don’t want to ‘pass,’ and it pisses me off when people force that upon me.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 9:42 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

I think the main reason why people talk so much about biracial folks only in terms of black/white is because the rest of us biracial folks (of different combinations) are so much more confusing for them.

Because of the history of Jim Crow and the multiracial aspect of most black Americans, we all think we know what “black” looks like, and what it doesn’t look like.

On the flip side, we middle-of-the-roaders are too confusing. So few people in the States actually know what a Chinese person really looks like; or Mexican; or Persian; or Hawaiian; or Southeast Asian; so they don’t even begin to have this conversation because we “other” bi-racial folks are more difficult to throw into any one category.

With black/white – the debate is simplified to: folks are either “dark enough” to be black, or they are “light enough” to be white.

The rest of us? They think we’re Latino, or “Pacific Islander” or Native or “whatever.” We get hit up with so many different stereotypes and assumptions, there’s no possibility of having any one specific experience, and so there can be no neat and tidy discussion of “how we should identify.”

Black/white? Everyone has an opinion because they think they know something. With the rest of us, people are too out of their element – so they’ll just stick to knowing that we’re “not white.”

When, really – nobody knows anything about the black/white mix, either.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 9:55 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

@ k.a. -
Wasn’t it well done how Tiger’s background got simplified to “bi-racial black/white”? Let’s just pretend that those “other” ethnicities aren’t part of his make-up, because they’re not important to this discussion . . .

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 9:58 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

The thing that drives me insane over all of this is the idea that everyone see a single mixed person as the same thing.

People don’t understand that just because You see person A as being ______, it doesn’t mean that everyone else does.

I am American, African, and European. A lot of people give me the line that since I’m part African:

“that makes you black, and everyone sees you as black, and when the cops pull you over you are black to them, so why are you even talking about being mixed?”

But a lot of people don’t see me as being a black person.

Once when I was about 15-18, a guy thought I was Asian. I was walking through the foyer of my library and it was just me and other guy. I gave him the usual dude to dude head nod, and kept walking.

And then I heard him shout the ugliest, cruelest word that you can call a Chinese person.

So I looked around, expecting to see an Asian person in the area. I knew what it was like to have people try to be mean to me for being mixed, and if I could I would like to help someone out of a racist situation. Or at least not leave them alone to deal with it.

But there was no one else there but the two of us.

And he shouted it again. This time with an inflection like he thought the person he was insulting wasn’t paying him any attention.

So i turned to look at him again. And he was staring at me. And i realized that I was the Asian person here. He thought I was Asian, he wanted to insult me for being Asian, so he hurled the meanest word he could think of for an Asian person at me.

I pointed at myself, still not believing that he was talking to me. He kind of nodded, and then I told him I wasn’t Asian.
His response was:

“Oh.”

Like he was surprised that I wasn’t Asian, and that his racism had misfired.

The fact that someone thinks that I’m Black, doesn’t change the fact that this guy thought I was Asian. Nor does it change that other people think I’m latino, or arab, or _____.

But so many monoracial people, especially within the Black community refuse to acknowledge that.

This Black-White Biracial debate centers around this. Until people can understand that their experience of person A’s race might differ from someone else, we will just stay in this stalemate.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 10:32 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@CVT “I think the main reason why people talk so much about biracial folks only in terms of black/white is because the rest of us biracial folks (of different combinations) are so much more confusing for them.”

I don’t think that’s the main reason. I think it has more to do with which races are regarded as “relatively safe” by the majority (white) culture vs. black people. I have heard of white people bragging that they have “Indian blood” (may not be true) or that they are 1/16th Chinese (from CA, probably was true) but, I have never ever ever heard of a white person bragging that they have “black blood.”

I’m just saying. It’s not that it gets broken in to “black/white” it’s more like “black/not-black” some of the time.

“Because of the history of Jim Crow and the multiracial aspect of most black Americans, we all think we know what “black” looks like, and what it doesn’t look like.”

And in fact what it “looks” like is a mixed-race person. Like Obama. I’m going to ask this question again: is it a good idea for black people to be more vocal about their multi-racial heritages and if so why?

“On the flip side, we middle-of-the-roaders are too confusing.”

I would say that they don’t set of alarm bells that are quite as loud. It’s incredibly patronizing and racist to see people as exotic– but, if you have the hair or dark enough skin that it is clear you have african ancestry you find yourself on the other side of a very high fence.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:00 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@Myles

“But so many monoracial people, especially within the Black community refuse to acknowledge that.”

I’d like to know what “monoracial people” are? I mean what is the meaning of this? I guess you mean with ancestors only from Africa? I don’t think there are many black people in the US who do not have non-black ancestors.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:05 pm ¶
9jah wrote:

@ Futurebird

“Do you think that all black people with multi-racial heritage should be more vocal about it? Most of us have multiracial heritage. In fact, I’d like to know anyone’s thoughts on this question.”

Here are my thoughts – if I was not a more rational and calculating individual with an ivy post grad degree, I would conclude that this is a strategic effort by certain elements to destabilize the shared sense of identity that fosters a commitment to the build up of the black community. kidding.

Seriously though, the fact that after 400 years of building a concrete, desirable and affirmative cultural identity with a strong racial emphasis that has proved beneficial for the psychological (and consequentially, other) well being of the people, that same identity is now being called into question by the same poking, probing and prodding hands that started the mess in the first place is rather disconcerting to me. Not all biracial people desire to be labeled “biracial”. Some are comfortable with the “black” identification with the understanding that it is as much a cultural, experiential classification as phenotype. For others it is not as applicable and that’s fine as well. For many (and most of the previous biracial posters) it is completely and consistently mutually inclusive.

There are also very real ramifications to a all blacks adopting a multiracial identity. If the worlds were made up of the Tiger’s or Thomas’ (in terms of racial ideology), there will be less people who see the cause of Sean Bell etc. (who will continue to be “black” for all intents and purposes, purposes such as being beat down by cops) as pressing societal concerns. I believe anyone of african ancestry who wishes to identify with the historical experience of being “black” should feel comfortable affirming that identity and not be confused by the mumble jumble. After all is an American with one Irish person “multinational” or American (or at most an American with an Irish ancestor)? And how far back do we go under this model?

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:12 pm ¶
9jah wrote:

Myles, I can’t argue with your experience but I would guess, if history is any indication, that as many white people view you as “black” even though they may not have had cause to state it as blacks that view you in the same way.

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:18 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@9jah But by acknowledging our multiracial ancestry we would not be saying that were not black. One can be both multiracial and black.

I guess what I’m not understanding is, given that race is a social construct anyway what is it about the new construct “multiracial” that applies to a person with a Chinese parent and a black parent, but not to a black person with less immediate mixed ancestry?

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:24 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

@ Futurebird 35

Would you prefer I say monracially identifying people?

Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 11:26 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@ Myles

Monracially identifying people… makes more sense. Still As a back person I don’t view black as a mono category– I see black people as very heterogeneous. A people united through our shared experience with racism and our African heritage be it one drop or the whole cup.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 1:50 am ¶
Myles wrote:

Futurebird 40

Okay, so monoethnically identified.

And it’s still another mono. Monoracial, monoethnic, monosexual, any other mono that you can think of all have a certain degree of privilege that bi-multi-racial/ethnic/sexual people don’t.

I’m not really sure of a nicer or fluffy way to put it but mono’s tend to be pretty sheltered. While many monoracial people will say that race is a social construct, the vast majority of them have never experienced what it is like to have the “socially accepted view of their race” change based on location.

You speak of a shared experience of racism in the name of African heritage. One experience – mono.

Biracial/multiracial people have to deal with multiple experiences of race and racism. Many of us have our races changed several times a day. We have to constantly readjust our mindsets to deal with racism and racial microaggressions, that are constantly shifting around us.

This is one of the things that monoracial, monoethnic, monosexual (identified) people find so difficult to understand.

Because it is their privilege to have outside views of their race remain unchanging. To largely go unquestioned.

This is why I say that black people are monoracial. Because they have the privilege for exist largely without their race being question. The are privileged in this respect.

And like all people who live with monoracial privilege, they have a difficult time understanding what it is like to have your race questioned and shifted constantly.

I am not saying that it is impossible for a monoracial person to understand what it is like to be multiracial. But monoracial people are faced with the same issues that White people are when they are trying to understand what it is like to be Black, and why the Black community tends to feel the way it does over certain issues.

They are blinded by their own privilege, and from their own privilege. They cannot see, or grow until they see and understand how they are privilege.

Once they know their own privilege, they can see how “others” live without that privilege. And then understanding and respect can develop.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 2:57 am ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“The fact that someone thinks that I’m Black, doesn’t change the fact that this guy thought I was Asian. Nor does it change that other people think I’m latino, or arab, or _____.”

Good point. What about mixed race people with a more ambiguous appearance, like the singer Cassie or actress Rosario Dawson? Even if they are part black, I think identification as multiracial would be less subject to dispute than in times past, and certainly no one would suggest that folks who look Middle Eastern, Indian, Latino, or Asian with no corresponding heritage should live out their lives as one of those races as a result of public consensus. In those instances, “you are what you people see you as” makes no sense. However, it can definitely impact a person’s perceptions and experiences in the world, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some multiracial people found that they related more to the experiences of groups that they appear to be than the experiences of the groups from whence they came in many situations.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 4:24 am ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@Myles

“And like all people who live with monoracial privilege, they have a difficult time understanding what it is like to have your race questioned and shifted constantly.”

But you see plenty of us live with that. There are plenty of black people who have had the experience you describe– of people questioning their race. I’ve had it happen, and people in my family have had it happen. That’s part of the black experience.

monoracial privilege? I really think the only time that that applies is if one looks unambiguously white. Unless you’re seriously saying that dark-skinned black folks who are read by others as “unambiguously black” have some kind of “privilege” — I guess in the sense that no one question them “what race are you?” but, though I have been asked that from time to time I’ve never found it to be a kind of oppression that is somehow distinct for regular racism. Ambiguous people face racism and at root is the same old fear of blackness.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 11:27 am ¶
Daniel wrote:

It is saddening to watch people like Nora and CasualObserver conflate being biracial with being half-white. As if all all cross-racial encounters and love stories in this planet of 6 billion involved a white person!

@Rona “As opposed to my biracial friends who can ‘pass’, then racial ‘choice’ is more at play and I admire the ones that choose to identify with being a person of color because that is then a political choice, with consequences”

I think it’s actually not always a choice, or rather it’s not the person’s own choice, in the sense that people end up getting pushed to identify one particular way when they’re young. I am half Black (Jamaican) and Near/Middle-Eastern (Armenian). The question of Armenian’s whiteness is one that really depends on where and when you are: based on monitoring white nationalist/white power groups, the consensus in Europe seems to be “no f’in way are Armenians white” whereas there’s disagreement in the US, which I’m sure is exacerbated by the fact that Armenians run quite the range of skin tones but are generally clearly non-European (like Kurds) yet we are historically Christian (unlike Kurds).

Anyhow, I digress. From 4th grade until somewhere around highschool, I identified, perhaps bizarrely, as white. Often this meant hiding my Black mother and identifying as Armenian (”what kind of last name is that?” being a popular way to ask what your ethnicity is in these parts) and asserting that Armenians were “Mediterranean” and therefore “white.” Why? Because my 4th grade teacher told me to. I had checked off “Other” for a race bubble on a standardized test and he asked me why after class, and told me that I should just check off White instead, because “it’d be easier that way.”

As an adult, I’ve had a fair number of run-ins with law enforcement, but I’ll share two that I think are telling:

1. Getting stopped with a group of white friends and having our IDs ran. I was the only person in the group searched (not even the driver was searched) for weapons, even though he ran me as a “white male” (but I could tell he wasn’t sure) on the radio.

2. Getting arrested with a few other white people. The cops referred to me pretty much solely as “the black guy” (also ‘ziggy marley’) without any questioning or hesitation.

So in my experience, as someone who (bizarrely) used to pass as white when he could but doesn’t anymore, I’ll say two things about people who pass as white, despite the fact that they really aren’t:

1. Their white privilege is limited. It may work if you’re wearing khakis and checking off bubbles on standardized tests in school, but it probably won’t help you much if you’re being stopped by the police. And, and hopefully this is obvious, the KKK and Nazis and the like still won’t like you, and if they find out you’re passing as white when you really aren’t they’re bound to dislike you far, far more than they dislike other people of color, because of their ideology about destruction of races, mongrel people, etc.

2. People who pass are victims of white supremacy, even if they are attempting to obtain white privilege in some aspects of our life. The fact that we have to deny who we are, our family, our heritage, in our efforts to get by inherently makes us victims, because white people don’t have to do that to enjoy white privilege. You ever watch GATTACA, about people with “natural” DNA living in fear and going through great lengths to seem like they aren’t “inferior?” Same idea.

So, I’m all for self-identification, but there are limits to it. I won’t respect the self-identification of anyone who has to hide their background or who deliberately misleads people about their background. You have to come to your self-identification honestly.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 12:37 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

@ DivergentDana-
“I wouldn’t be surprised if some multiracial people found that they related more to the experiences of groups that they appear to be than the experiences of the groups from whence they came in many situations”

Spot on. Because of my ambiguity and the random racism thrown at me, I often find myself identifying with the Latino (specifically Mexican) experience in a lot of ways – even though I don’t have a drop of Latino blood. Now, I wouldn’t then say I am Latino – but I feel that experience to a degree.

@ Futurebird -
Trust me, we other mixes confuse the Hell out of people – and people don’t like to be confused and out of their element. I also understand the history of oppression that goes into the specifically mixed-black experience, but it’s not a coincidence that we “other” races are so often completely ignored in this conversation – as well as many others when it comes to race.

And, that said, the real difference between a biracial black person with a Chinese parent and black parent versus somebody less immediately mixed is knowledge. Most black folks are mixed, to some degree, but the knowledge of exactly what they’re mixed with is missing – which makes a HUGE difference. The person with a Chinese parent (or grandparent) will have a connection to that culture and different experience than another “multiracial” black person that has no direct connection to the other ethnicities in their background – and that changes everything.

So many of the kids I teach tell me, “we have some Chinese in our family” or something like that – but they’re not sure. It’s also likely that it’s not actually “Chinese” blood, but other Asian blood (but their lack of knowledge makes them lump it all together). So they live a “mono” life with the question of what’s in the past.

Totally different than somebody who knows what’s in their past because it’s represented by a living relative that then actually talks to them about it; or that they identify with in some way.

The first kid sees an Asian shopkeeper and rolls with the stereotypes they know. The second one says, “Oh, you’re Korean, like my mother/father/grandmother/etc.” That makes a difference.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 1:35 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

@9jah and Futurebird -
To answer your question, “is it a good idea for black people to be more vocal about their multi-racial heritages and if so why?”

Those with the direct connection (like I said above) should be more vocal about it. Because, as it stands in this country right now, the various different races are mostly insulated from each other. They stand up for their own rights, then continue to stereotype the other races. I have so many black friends with whom I discuss race and rights with – who still don’t know the difference between Vietnamese, Thai, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, or Korean (food or people) – they really still are “all the same” to them.

I know Latino folks who joke about “terrorists” and “towel-heads.” Asian folks who won’t have anything to do with black or Latinos . . .

The only group of people I know who consistently throw their lot in with all PoC? Mixed folks, of course. So I think that bringing awareness to how races actually mix it up and come together and shared experiences, etc. is the only way to ever get strong enough to take a real run at institutional racism. Until that happens? Each race will get their rights at the expense of another -and we’ll just average out right where we are.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 1:44 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:

@ Futurebird
Thanks for the link, I find this very interesting. And if you say you hear it all the time I have no reason to doubt you. But I have literally never heard this sentiment from a white person even once. And, as a part-time white person myself who passes unnoticed through large groups of white people all the time, I hear a lot of things that they would not say to my face if they knew I was an Arab/American guy.

That may have to do with living in New York, where even the most jaded racists are, by virtue of proximity, more sophisticated about racial matters than people in mono-racial communities. So I am not claiming that my experience is universal but the radical difference between mine and yours makes me wonder a couple of things:

Are these conversations where white people are championing Barack Obama as “half-white” happening to you in real life or online, as in the livejournal thread you linked to? Because I would be less inclined to generalize about this based on online conversations–which (outside of this heavily moderated space) tend toward the nutty. Especially in relation to race and politics. Like I said, I’m not doubting you I’m just trying to understand.

But even if most white people are insisting on recognizing Obama as “half white”, which would be a stunning reversal of hundreds of years of one-drop rule racism…is that really a bad thing?

I get that you are frustrated–and I am saying this respectfully–but who cares what white people think? If they all got together in a giant town hall meeting and decided that Barack Obama was Albanian it wouldn’t change anything. Obama defines himself and he has consistently said he is Black AND bi-racial. The “or” only exists for other people.

I am uncomfortable with anyone–black or white–insisting on defining him differently than he defines himself based on what makes them feel better about themselves. A bi-racial identity doesn’t make him somehow less black. It means that race and identity are complicated. And if Obama’s presidency changes the conversation about race to consider the subtleties of multi-racial identities I find it really hard to think of that as a bad thing, even if it means some white people say stupid shit about it.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 1:59 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:

@Futurebird #38

(Sorry to jump in here twice but I just saw this)

“I guess what I’m not understanding is, given that race is a social construct anyway what is it about the new construct “multiracial” that applies to a person with a Chinese parent and a black parent, but not to a black person with less immediate mixed ancestry?”

Because “Black” is a social category invented by Euro-Americans (so that they could imagine themselves as “white” another imaginary construct) not an ethnic one that African Americans chose to name themselves. If not for colonialism/slavery there would be no “Black.” People from different parts of Africa would identify ethnically, nationally, tribally–or not at all–as opposed to having all of these potential categories collapsed into one monolithic one. You are absolutely right that most African Americans are multi-ethnic by default–but the category “black” is monolithic by definition, that is its function, even though black people aren’t. For whatever its worth, “white” works the same way. Scottish people and say, Croatians have absolutely nothing in common except skin tone.

@Myles #41
“While many monoracial people will say that race is a social construct, the vast majority of them have never experienced what it is like to have the “socially accepted view of their race” change based on location…Biracial/multiracial people have to deal with multiple experiences of race and racism. Many of us have our races changed several times a day. We have to constantly readjust our mindsets to deal with racism and racial microaggressions, that are constantly shifting around us. This is one of the things that monoracial, monoethnic, monosexual (identified) people find so difficult to understand. Because it is their privilege to have outside views of their race remain unchanging. To largely go unquestioned. ”

Wow. I have never heard it put so succinctly before. Brilliant. Cosign.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 2:32 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:

I agree with Futurebird, black people are NOT mono racial, we are a mixture of african, white, often native american at the base (from slavery times, I mean) and then whatever else mixes with it after that, hispanic, asian, etc. That is why I like to say that African Americans are also indigenous to America, as having travelled all over the world, there is no other group who exists in a country evolving from our circumstances that has affected the culture of this country. Every where else I have gone, POC have someplace their parents or relatives are originally from and know where it is and can go home. There is NO such luxury for Blacks. We know its Africa and that’s pretty much it for most of us. Maybe a particular part of Africa, but for most of us, even with the DNA test, we have had our connections to family irreparably destroyed. That is a part of Black Americans identity that is stolen from us, hence our desire and continuing evolution to create our own identity. Unless we passed, we could not use our white ancestors identity, and often were not free to live with our native relatives, whom where most often someone who married into the black community and not vice versa. That is why the issue of race and identity will forever be an issue, is because of the stolen identity that Black Americans have. If you want to read something interesting about passing, there is the gook, Jefferson’s children abook written by one of the black descendants of Thomas Jefferson It’s .like a picture book written for middle school level, but the photos and narrative are excellent.
I personally was offended when Tiger made up the word cablinasian, when cablin meaning caucasian-black-indian is pretty much what most African Americans are racially, so instead of having to make up some damn word to make himself different, he really should have said he was black and Asian. If you want to say Tiger is multiracial, based upon the racial mix of his Father, well every Black person in America is multiracial too. Good luck with changing that perception.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 3:27 pm ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@bdsista I picked this up from someone else online. When a person of mixed heritage is successful we hear a lot about it. And people who are successful like Wood get a little more free range to define their identities outside of blackness. Not total free range but a little.

I think it is worth noting, though that if a man robs a store and if he looks pretty much like a black man– no one will go out of their way to inform us that he’s “half-white.”

@Joseph

I agree with that you have said. But it’s not answering my question. Since race is a social construct isn’t “multiracial” also a social construct?

Also I don’t think “most” white people are saying he’s half white, just some. And since it’s so irritating it really stands out. I have had this happen both online and off… including one rather liberal fried who is an Obama supporter (big time) who argued with be that Obama is “different” from “regular” black people… and not in the sense that he’s just an exceptional guy… but because “he’s half white” –this guy was shocked to find out that many black people have white ancestors and some of us have more white ancestors than black. It didn’t seem malicious… just clueless.

@CVT

“Those with the direct connection (like I said above) should be more vocal about it.”

I know who some of my white ancestors were. I know where they lived and their application culture intersected with the black Appalachian culture of my black ancestors. The music of my religion has African influences but the words to the songs are Christian and in English. It’s not a pretty story but it is my heritage. It is black and it American and it is multi-racial. It’s also a pretty common story for black people like me. By direct do you mean “recent” — ? Would you consider the connection I described to be “direct?”

“The only group of people I know who consistently throw their lot in with all PoC? Mixed folks, of course.”

Sadly I have not found this to be the case. Though I do think being mixed race gives one the *potential* to have greater awareness it doesn’t alway impart it.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 8:11 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

@ Futurebird: When I use the term Biracial, I’m referring to people who have parents of different races (whatever combo that might be). And yes, I think they should be more vocal because being Biracial in America is a different experience from being simply Black, Asian, White, Hispanic, etc, no matter what combination you are.

So, I’m all for self-identification, but there are limits to it. I won’t respect the self-identification of anyone who has to hide their background or who deliberately misleads people about their background. You have to come to your self-identification honestly.

I agree. And that’s the flaw with “Pick one”, “One drop” and everything in between. It forces people to deny a part of what they are and lie.

I am uncomfortable with anyone–black or white–insisting on defining him differently than he defines himself based on what makes them feel better about themselves.

My sentiments exactly. Obama has said time and time again that he is a biracial man who self-identifies as Black. What other people think is their problem.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 10:26 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“I personally was offended when Tiger made up the word cablinasian, when cablin meaning caucasian-black-indian is pretty much what most African Americans are racially, so instead of having to make up some damn word to make himself different, he really should have said he was black and Asian.”

Didn’t he say that he made up that phrase as a child? I’ve seen countless people upset by this, but absolutely no evidence that he actually retained this identification through adulthood. I seriously doubt he does.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 11:47 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

@ Myles -

I am sure years of introspection and experience has nutured your perspective regarding us monos. However, please give us credit for being a little more nuanced and empathetic.

Non-mono people have a good group of people who understand them if people would open up.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 12:29 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

@ Myles, whoa, whoa whoa with the “monoracially identifed” generalizations. Even though I think what you wrote is true much of the time, it still rubbed me the wrong way because it seemed like such a blanket statement directed at a “monoracial” block that has an incredible amount of phenotypic variation. I don’t look in the least bit white but the perception of my race is fluid and causes confusion depending on the company I keep. That kind of experience is not at all unsual for monoracially identifying blacks. It’s just that we don’t have the priviledge of acknowledging the other obviously present parts of out ancestry, the end result is this “black” phenotype that Dana descibed:
“The criteria for who “looks” black is much more permissive than the criteria for a white or Asian appearance precisely because so many black people who have multiracial heritage have been categorized as indisputably black for so long.”
While some mixed race people may resent the pressure imposed by monoracial priviledge, I think some monoracially identified people resent the priviledge of multiracial people (who often look just like them) who can choose (some more than others) to acknowledge other parts of their ancestry. I think that’s why some monoracially IDing black people give multi-racial people so much crap.

@ Futurebird: I don’t know what would be the outcome of being able to acknowledge other ancestries. I’m not sure if it would be a good idea, or a bad one. It might help dismantle the ODR but I also fear that many of those who could move up on the racial totem by mitigating their blackness would, in droves. It would be like this huge abandoning of the ship with only those with no phenotypic ambiguity or financial priviledge being left on a sinking ship. I would want to change the perception of blackness first, make it only a phenotypic identifier and not a loaded white supremacist term before allowing (as if I’m the gatekeeper of of all blackness) multi-racial monoethnically identifying black people more freedom to identify as multiracial.

@ Joseph: The phenomenon of some whites whining about Obama’s white half not getting enough acknowledgment are indeed way too common. I usually request that they go through the criminal justice system first and invite all the black-white biracial black people to get aboard the”I’m white, too” bus then swing back around and pick up Obama on the way back. I usually don’t get a response.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 12:36 am ¶
Futurebird wrote:

@DivergentDana “Didn’t he say that he made up that phrase as a child?”

I think the press just made it sound that way.

@Kaonashi

“When I use the term Biracial, I’m referring to people who have parents of different races (whatever combo that might be). And yes, I think they should be more vocal because being Biracial in America is a different experience from being simply Black, Asian, White, Hispanic, etc, no matter what combination you are.”

Well, each of our expereinces are different. But I keep wincing at “simply black” or “simply Asian” … none of these things are simple.

I just feel as though people are talking about blackness as if it is a real thing– when we know the apprentice that will get one classified as black by most people isn’t fixed and it isn’t based on any kind of science. All black people are subjected to this unfair kind of binary sorting. Some of the people in my family pass for white. Others are seen as black. Some have recent white ancestors others don’t. There isn’t anything simple about it.

The socially constructed ideas of race are not simple. I’m not convinced we need another new “race” called “bi-racial” — Or we could bring back Mulatto which is what my grandma was called. I just don’t see what good this is doing…

Is it that hard to just be both Black AND Chinese or white or whatever? Answer yes to both questions check both boxes etc. ? You know be 100% of both?

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 1:07 am ¶
L. wrote:

Wow, I’m gonna need some time to think out my comment. But ummm, CVT, we need to have a little heart-to-heart buddy. I mean we really need to have it out.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 3:19 am ¶
L. wrote:

Oh, but I do want to quickly respond to Myles’s comment:

“While many monoracial people will say that race is a social construct, the vast majority of them have never experienced what it is like to have the “socially accepted view of their race” change based on location…Biracial/multiracial people have to deal with multiple experiences of race and racism. Many of us have our races changed several times a day. We have to constantly readjust our mindsets to deal with racism and racial microaggressions, that are constantly shifting around us. This is one of the things that monoracial, monoethnic, monosexual (identified) people find so difficult to understand. Because it is their privilege to have outside views of their race remain unchanging. To largely go unquestioned. ”

First of all, I can really appreciate this. I don’t think I’ve ever had it put to me that way. Second of all, I also think that this is a huge point of both confusion and resentment between some bi/multiracial people and some monoracial people (mainly PoC). Speaking from my experiences as a “monoracial” black person, I think that what you describe to be my privilege, when flipped on it’s head, would be considered by many monoracials to be yours. I think a lot of misunderstanding comes from the fact that a lot of monoracial PoC can’t see how their privilege is in fact a privilege, and a lot of bi/multiracial PoC don’t understand how much racial ambiguity would be valued for some monoracial people, regardless of how wrong it may be. What may be problematic for you could be a holy grail for someone else, and vice versa. I think if we made it known to each other the why behind these two viewpoints… it wouldn’t be useless.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 3:41 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

*sigh*
i get so annoyed when i read about people talking about multiracial people in america.

first, not everyone is half white!
not everyone is bi-racial!
and not everyone is half-black!

one thing that really grates on my nerves is black people who go on and on about how ALL blacks in america ALL have mixed ancestry…even the ones that just came over here from ghana, they’re mixed too,,,,they just don’t know it.

if a person has parents of two different races or ethnicities, their life experience is probably going to be a lot different from someone who’s great-great-great grandma was of two different races/ethnicities.

monoracial communities want to claim mixed people when they get famous, but when it’s just a regular mixed person, they have no problem saying that so-and-so is a “sellout”, etc.

why can’t whites, blacks and all americans claim obama? when did he become the sole property of blacks?

i’m waiting for the day when mixed people can just be mixed.

finally, while i think that how others see you can shape how you view the world, it doesn’t mean that you need to change your identity for them.
if it’s ok for obama to identify as black because people think that he’s black, then we should start telling young black men that because white people think that they are thugs and uneducated that they should drop out of school and become thugs.
i mean, that’s how people see them right?

why fight it?
…right?

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 8:06 am ¶
CVT wrote:

@Futurebird -
When I say “direct,” I mean having a living relative (or, better yet, relatives) that the person knows/sees on a regular basis; real exposure to another racial (or ethnic) existence through family.

So, I guess your story wouldn’t exactly be “direct” by my definition. It’s obviously not so neat and tidy as I would have it, but I think the important difference is having family and exposure to the other culture through family – that’s what I think makes the difference.

As for your comment to Kaonashi (#55): “Is it that hard to just be both Black AND Chinese or white or whatever? Answer yes to both questions check both boxes etc. ? You know be 100% of both?”

I think I’m with you on that one. My original comment – and how I ultimately see it – is that, again, it’s not an either/or thing. It’s absolutely both. And neither. Because no matter my heritage, I am absolutely not “100% white” in experience or identity in this country. And neither am I “100% Chinese.” I don’t belong to either, fully. But they both very much created who I am.

Let me just drop some links, because I’ve written about all of this A LOT:

http://choptensils.blogspot.com/2008/07/on-gray-area-in-between.html

This references other posts that talk about the other sides, if you’re so inclined.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 2:11 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

@ L. -
I’m not sure what I wrote to piss you off, but I’ll assume it’s my references to mixed folks being better “gap-bridgers” than other races.

By no means am I saying “all mixed folks fight hardest for all races.” I know just as many mixed folks who are ashamed of one (or more) sides of their mix, and do more damage to it than the worst racists.

What I am saying is that many ambiguously-mixed folks (who “pass” as Native, or Latino, or Asian, or Pacific Islander, or Arab – all in the same day) are more likely to just take on the cause of “People of Color” over the cause of “insert one race here.”

Don’t know if that helps (or if that’s even what you were referring to), but please let me know what got you, so I can explain further (because I really think it must be misunderstanding more than anything I truly believe . . . I hope).

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 2:19 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

I need to stop commenting, but I just noticed something . . .

@L.
It’s this, isn’t it? “Each race will get their rights at the expense of another -and we’ll just average out right where we are.”

That one definitely fell to gross exaggeration. I do not believe AT ALL – that, say, black folks getting more rights hurts Asian folks, or something like that. But that line definitely reads like that. I honestly believe that any time a minority group (whether by race or otherwise) earns a step towards more rights, the rest of us are winning.

I’m not even sure what I was trying to say there – I guess that it doesn’t help that we focus so much on our own battles at the expense of knowledge of another one. Meaning, if we took the time to learn about the fights of other minority groups, we could find our common ground and pool resources, instead of doing it alone and trying to steal each other’s thunder, at times (like the whole Prop 8 fight blaming black folks, for instance). So – I was talking about how groups continue to alienate each other, setting us all back, when we could do some major damage on the same page.

I hope that made some sort of sense.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 2:33 pm ¶
Kat wrote:

To what ~~Littleconfusedracistgirl~~ said on comment #58:
*************

Wow…How wrong you are!!

It seems to me you are generalizing and are no different from ignorant racists. Whatever you are spouting is 1000% wrong and highly ignorant.

Mod Note – Retro moderation applied – I didn’t see the rename the first time. – LDP

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 5:25 pm ¶
L. wrote:

“if a person has parents of two different races or ethnicities, their life experience is probably going to be a lot different from someone who’s great-great-great grandma was of two different races/ethnicities.”

And I don’t know one single person who’s saying it isn’t, therefore I don’t understand why this keeps coming up.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 5:41 pm ¶
L. wrote:

Kat: 100% cosign.

BTW, I get so annoyed when I read about people talking about black people in America.

@ CVT: Yeah, those had something to do with it. But I’ll get back to you later.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 6:14 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

62 Kat
64 L.

I think you missed little mixed girl’s point. She made several valid points. But it could be that something biased your reading of it. I think it would help if you reread it, and maybe elaborated on your feelings of what she posted.

The ending of it was similar to my post about being seen as being Asian. She is arguing about why we should fallow certain people’s definitions of ourselves or others, but not other people’s definition of those same people.

And she makes a valid point that we fight many stereotypes.

Can you two elaborate on why you feel the way you do? You know, help continue the conversation?

And I am working on a longer comment in response to some of the comments above.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 7:59 pm ¶
L. wrote:

I don’t think I misread or misunderstood anything she was trying to say. And I didn’t overlook her points. I think that what she was trying to say is valid and I agree, but I disagree with the way she tried to make her point. I don’t understand how making prejudiced generalizations about whole communities is helping her case. And it’s not just her doing it. It’s basically the tone in a lot of the comments on this thread, and it’s really disappointing. Talking about how black people do this and black people do that is not helpful in any way. It’s prejudiced. If I were to start saying that biracial people mixed with black just don’t want to identify as black because they hate black people, almost everyone would find that problematic.

I’m just saying, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

CVT: Okay, so maybe I should just start by asking that if by saying:

“Those with the direct connection (like I said above) should be more vocal about it.”

that you in turn mean that the rest of us have no need to be more vocal about our multiracial ancestry?

I want to point out that I have no desire to claim being any other race but black, and that I don’t want to lay claims to the bi/multi-racial experience. It just seems like whenever a black person starts to bring up their mixed ancestry, other people decide for them whether its relevant or not. And I think people are quick to assume that by doing so, we want to lay claim to the oppression that bi/multi-racial people face. And, at least for me, that’s not at all the case. For me, it all goes back to everybody else deciding what black is.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 8:38 pm ¶
cm wrote:

If calling a mixed person confused and racist ( as kat did in comment 62) for talking about her experience is ok on this blog then i don’t really think this is a blog i want to read anymore.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:14 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

66. L.

There is no point in having cake if you can’t eat it.

And what do you mean by prejudice generalizations? Do you mean against monoracial people?

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:26 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kat –

Not ok to call mixed people confused about their own identities.

@CM –

People are allowed to challenge people on whatever -ism they choose here. Just like people termed Restructure’s article on Generals Tsao’s racist for her specific use of the term “white american culture” among other things, kat & L can challenge LMG on what they perceive to be prejudiced/racist statements about blacks.

As we’ve said a great many times, PoCs can be racist/prejudice toward other PoCs, mixed race people can still hold prejudices about PoCs and whites (as Carmen has noted in some of her posts and in her experiences) and having interracial sex does not absolve you of any racist tendancies.

On this blog, mixed race identity is not to be challenged – people can identify any way they so choose. (Though, I am probably about to put a block on any further debates about Barack Obama – he’s already stated how he identifies, which is as a black man of biracial heritage.)

However, we can also challenge each other on ingrained ideas and prejudices that manifest sometimes – and while there are people who primarily identify with one race who have some extremely ignorant ideas about what it means to have a mixed race/multiracial identity, there are also mixed race folks who do their fair share of generalizing other races. I’ve seen both conversations play out, but as long as the conversation stays productive, I don’t see a reason to intervene.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:40 pm ¶
L. wrote:

Precisely. It’s the “black people always do this” meme, and I think it’s a little unsettling that it’s commonly thrown around in a topic that frequently talks about how everyone else stereotypes bi/multi-racial people. And, thinking back on it, maybe “prejudiced” is not the word I’d use for little mixed girl’s comment, it’s still something that I see a lot of when people (no matter their ancestry) start talking about “monoracial” blacks en masse. That’s why I basically took her whole sentence about being annoyed when people talk about biracial and multiracial people in America and changed it to being annoyed when people talk about black people in America. I don’t see how it’s okay for one and not the other. And I also don’t think that it takes away from your experiences if I call you out on stereotyping. I’m not looking for you to agree with me, I’m just stating my opinion. And no, I don’t like when reg. black people stereotype other reg. black people.

And I also didn’t mean to cosign the name-calling of little mixed girl, and apologize if I offended anyone.

P.s.- I never understood the whole “have your cake and eat it too” thing. If it’s your cake, you should be able to do what you want with it. But it seemed to fit so I used it.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:52 pm ¶
Angela wrote:

The main problem with this entire discussion is that we are continuing to use the “white” lens to view/define ourselves. Our entire discussion seems to be based on the experiences of being out of the “norm” or accepted by the “norm”. We have to stop using those glasses. They are limiting, self- defeating, ineffective, image-distorting glasses. Many of these posts are drenched in those glasses…

The US has always been multiethnic–the false black /white dichotomy that we seem to be arguing about was created pricely to force us to use those globby glasses and lose sight of how we are treated by those who use that lens for power. (Jim Crow impacted every POC. Albeit depended on how “whites” decied to view you as in the police scenarios described by other posters. There were separate schools for Chinese-Americans and Mexican-Americans. People not of identifiable African ancestry were permitted to or barred from entering the front door or drink from the fountain etc. People we all now call “white” were not always considered such…)

We have to stop allowing others to define us in the sense that we claim false dangerous labels like–”white”. If we indeed have a European parent/relative–claim the ethnicity not being part white. To claim whiteness is to claim this destructive lens that seeks to oppress by ostricizing and otherizing so called “non-whites”. We multi-ethtnic people should resist these false labels.

As someone else pointed out this otherizing can become even more complex in Brazil, Egypt and other parts of the word that decide to create other false labels for their systems of oppression which is what these labels are really about.

Claim specific identities to honor parents and other relatives–Irish, Kenyan, American as an example. Never white and…

Just my thoughts.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:52 pm ¶
Lisa J wrote:

I just want to say to everyone, bi-racial, multi-racial, African-American, European-American, Asian- American, Chinese, Japanese, Native American, Indian, African, European, Asian, and everyone I’ve left out, I want to embrace you all say am trying to have your best interest at heart and to be respectful to you all. Truly. I wish the best for you and hope the conversation continues to be the positive, intelligent and for the enlightenment of us all.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 10:15 pm ¶
cm wrote:

@ Latoya
It was the name calling bit that made me upset enough to comment, and confused as to why it would go unchallenged. Thanks for responding.

Mod Note - Yeah, sorry about that. I’m skimming, and if the comments are in not sequential order (I see all pending comments over all threads) I don’t always remember/notice when something like that is off. – LDP

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 10:16 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:

From wikipedia:

It means that once one has eaten one’s cake, it will be gone and no longer in one’s possession. It is similar to “You can’t have it both ways.”

Paul Brians, Professor of English at Washington State University, points out that perhaps a more logical or easier to understand version of this saying is: “You can’t eat your cake and have it too”. Professor Brians writes that a common source of confusion about this idiom stems from the verb to have which in this case indicates that once eaten possession of the cake is no longer possible.[2] Alternatively, the two verbs can be understood to represent a sequence of actions, so one can indeed “have” one’s cake and then “eat” it. Consequently, the literal meaning of the reversed idiom doesn’t match the metaphorical meaning.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 10:55 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

71. Angela

AGRREED!

White people are considered to be the hegemon of the United States. They are considered to have the most power and say. And they are considered to be the rule makers and ultimate authority of United States culture.

That’s why people use the argument of:

“Well, white people see you as ______”

When they are dealing with multiracial people, or “Others.”

20. L.

The reason there is a “black person always do this to me” meme is because for a lot of multiracial people, it *is* black people, or members of the black community who are harassing them.

It’s similar to a black person talking about dealing with racism and say that “white people always do this to me.”

It is their experience of coping with racism that is primarily coming at them from one front, a white front.

For a lot of multiracial people the front that they are having to cope with *is* black*.

As hard as it might sound, it might help to try to put your feelings of being hurt aside, and see where the comment is coming from. The fact that there is such a common line of “______ group gives me crap” should indicate that there is a real pattern that is affect real people.

Eh, that’s what works for me. See where the comment is coming from and why it is coming with the slant it does.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 11:11 pm ¶
L. wrote:

Myles,

I have no problems with that, and in fact I do find it helpful to put statements like that into a context that I can relate too. But my issue is that a lot of the time it’s not “_______ people do this to me and this behavior is a problem” , it’s “_______ do this and they are a problem” and then the stereotypes start flying. It’s a disservice done to both sides, especially when the convo. includes not making stereotypes and judgments about groups of people to which you don’t belong.

Forgive me for having a pretty good memory (it’s sort of creeping me out right now), but I remember you leaving a comment once about how it’s always black women who seem to think you’re exotic and try to make you into the black man they want you to be (if you’re the same Myles). If that’s your experience, then I have no problem with you stating that. I clearly didn’t have a problem when I read it and in the moths since because I didn’t call you out on doing anything wrong (or at least I don’t recall doing so). But it could have been only a hop, skip, and jump away from you saying “black women always exotify mixed people, that’s just how they are.” And that would have been an issue.

It’s the making of human flaws into explicitly “black” flaws that I’m taking issue with.

On another note, I think– to answer Futurebirds question– that if African-Americans were/allowed to be more vocal about their multiracial heritage, it might change the relationships/interactions that some African-Americans have with bi/multi-racial people for the better.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 11:51 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

76.

I’m too tired to really think straight right now, but I think I understand where you are coming from.

And yes I am that same Myles.

I’d say more but I’m just not lucid.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 12:22 am ¶
Kat wrote:

@ Latoya
I just wanted to state before I get misinterpreted that I wasn’t referring to mixed people as confused. I was referring to little racist girl’s post as confused and incoherent since it reeked with ignorance.

You are absolutely correct in stating some mixed people are just as ignorant about other races which is exactly what I addressed in my previous post.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 1:13 am ¶
Kat wrote:

@ CM

I was not name calling. We can agree to disagree about comment #58. Your reading or not reading this post is not up to me.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 1:24 am ¶
Kat wrote:

I meant blog, not post.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 1:26 am ¶
CVT wrote:

@L.

Hmmm. I think all we have to do here is change the statement: “Those with the direct connection (like I said above) should be more vocal about it.” Maybe to something more like “Those with the direct connection (like I said above) should – DEFINITELY – be more vocal about it.”

I was just saying that anybody with immediate family members – that they know and are still in touch with (in a positive way) – of another culture should absolutely be vocal about that. Otherwise, it’s a disservice to the relatives’ culture -as well as to the mixed black/other race person.

As far as “less directly mixed” black folks? I think that would be more a matter of preference for them how they identify their multiracial sides – personally, it wouldn’t bother me, either way. As far as I’m concerned, anything that gets people (of any race) to be more interested in cultures/ethnicities not their own and to see the very fluid nature of race in the world is a good thing for all of us. That said, holding on to a “single” black identity makes perfect sense to me, as well.

I’m not sure if you’re the same “L.” that has commented on my blog – but if you haven’t already read my Pan-Asian vs. Pan-African post, you should. I kind of touch on my perspective of the multiraciality (and the lack of specifics therein) that is part and parcel of the black experience in America, which seems to fit in with the rest of this conversation.

Hopefully, from that, you’ll see that I’m not trying to tell anybody else how to identify or talk about their experiences. Hell – I’m still a little unclear on how I identify and what I do or do not have a “right” to claim . . .

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 2:52 am ¶
Futurebird wrote:

I think on a blog like this one most people would agree that race is a social construct. Race is not a scientific concept, it’s a social concept. That is, your race has to do with your place in society. This is why Obama mentions the story about what happens if he tried to hail a cab. But, race is more than the prejudices and privileges you experience it is also, in part, shaped by your culture and family.

Growing up with parents of different races is a different experience from growing up with parents of the same race. I guess this is the category that is commonly seen as called multi-racial, except when it’s not. Multi-racial is a social construct too. Some multi-racial people are also black. Some may pass as white (I wonder what most white people would think of a person who says they are both multi-racial AND white? ) Some multi-racial people do not fit easily in to the mostly binary system of race that pervades most of our culture. (I think you average white American will recognize most Asian people as the same “race” and then also claim Latinos are a “race” even though they are not… “but what ARE they then?” Says the bigot… )

So, what we are seeing is the new emergence of a multi-racial social construct. There have been constructs before, like Mulatto, but the Multi-racial is different in that it’s not about percents. Ideally it would recognize that we are talking about social and cultural identities… not genetics. But, is that how it is working in practice? I don’t know. I see darker skinned more “black-looking” multi-racial people pushing to establish their identity– then often dropping it. I’m just talking about two people I know, it might not be a trend.

In media, multiracial has come to mean “racially ambiguous” rather than any specific cultural experience. I think this is where the trouble begins. Forgive me for only speaking about black and white here, but if it’s all about how people *look*, then what’s really happening is we’re going back to the days where “mulatto” occupied a place in between black and white. This implies a painful social order that we are all too familiar with. Frankly, this is where majority culture seems to be trending. Multi-racial means mostly “looks a little black but not like most black people.”

I’m not talking about what most multi-racial people do or say, I’m talking about what multi-racial means to most Americans.

Some of the friction is over this popular idea of multi-racial.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 3:02 am ¶
Marie wrote:

@L & Myles
I do think some mixed people can be overly critical of (some) black people’s reactions to them. I say that from experience because I used to be one of those people! It used to drive me nuts when black people – including my own black mother – would say that all black people are mixed. I felt my experience was so invalidated by that. And it was frustrating but when I got older I realized there’s a lot of other people who get seen as black who have a white grandfather, great grandfather or whatever and nobody’s validating them on that either and that’s where the sentiment was coming from. Is it fair/unfair? I don’t know but I had to grow up and realize the world was bigger than me to get that that was the underlying dynamic. And I can’t be mad about it. Racism sucks for everybody.

This brings me to Angela’s comment.

@Angela 71
Wow – thank you! We do need to put the whiteness construct down and try to see ourselves in another lens because whiteness is really tied up with racial oppression – and white people are oppressed by it too IMO (at the same time they of course are privileged by it).

But I just wonder if you really can take the whiteness construct out of any European cultural group – say Swedish or Irish or Italian culture? Can race really not mean anything?

I am taking the topic off in a new direction than what I think Angela intended. My question is as racism breaks down or morphs or does whatever it is it’s doing, what do you do with whiteness? I’m not white (Swedish/black American) but I am getting more preoccupied with this topic though because I am pregnant and probably will have a child that gets seen as white. And whiteness still means something even if we don’t want it to, doesn’t it? My husband is also Scandinavian (call me uncreative!) and I’m trying to figure out how whiteness can be done in a positive way because it isn’t just going to disappear even if I emphasize my child’s Scanidinavian-ness because Scandinavia is still 1) majority white, 2) racism gets practiced there too and 3) stereotypical Scandinavian physical traits still mean a lot to whiteness.

This is a tangent but I really care about this topic and need help on it. If someone could blog on this, I’d love it! That is brown moms raising white appearing children. Maybe it’s already been done over on anti-racist parent? Let me know if it has. Thanks!

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 7:42 am ¶
Futurebird wrote:

One less question for anyone who identifies as primarily multiracial: If/when you have kids do you think they will be seen as multiracial? Under what circumstances?

Will you consider them to be multiracial? How would you respond if due to their appearance they are “placed” in a racial category that isn’t what you expect?

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 9:11 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

@ L and Kat:

sorry, but i don’t really get what it was about my post that offended you guys.

before i posted, i saw a number of comments by what seemed to be black posters who were posting things that i’ve seen many times online by other black posters.

the gist of those posts by black people regarding mixed people (specifically those who are part-black) is that:
“they have no right to claim mixedness because they are running away from blackness. all blacks in america are without a doubt mixed, so why should someone with a white parent be able to say that they are mixed?, etc etc”

then later, those same people cry about who is marrying white and how mixed people have it better, etc.

i am annoyed because as a mixed person, monoracial people continuously say (online at least) that my experience is not valid.
i am annoyed because whenever a mixed person makes it “big” monoracials suddenly come out of the woodwork to claim them, while saying vile things about mixed individuals in their own communities.
i’m annoyed because anytime a mixed person experiences anything (good or bad) someone who is monoracial has to jump in and say something like “well, i am 13% native american, so can i be mixed too?” (as if being mixed is about ticking off the number of racial or ethnic groups in your distant ancestor’s past).

it’s nothing about “all black people”. i used black because for the first part of responses, people focused solely on “black and white”.
anything could be replaced with monoracial asian, or hispanics, or moon-people.

finally, i was making a point that if multiracial people should conform to stereotypes, then we shouldn’t challenge other stereotypes. we might as well live up to them.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 11:17 am ¶
CVT wrote:

@ Futurebird:

“Will you consider them to be multiracial? How would you respond if due to their appearance they are “placed” in a racial category that isn’t what you expect?”

I’ve thought about this. A LOT. I worry about the fact that, if I were to have a kid with a white woman, my kid would be – for all intents and purposes – white (seen as white, at least – and mostly live the white experience). If I had kids with a Chinese woman, then our kid would be pretty much “Chinese.” They’d still be multiracial in fact, of course – but their experience would be quite different than mine.

Otherwise – if I were to have kids with any other racial combination, my kid(s) would continue to be seen as “multiracial” on a wider scale, and would still have that “ambiguously-mixed” experience that I have had.

Of course – this all depends on how the kid looks; whatever the combinations in its blood. Much as what you were saying above.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 1:27 pm ¶
Kat wrote:

#85 said someone who is monoracial has to jump in and say something like “well, i am 13% native american, so can i be mixed too?” (as if being mixed is about ticking off the number of racial or ethnic groups in your distant ancestor’s past).
**************

You realize you are in essence One-Dropping.

You’re essentially saying screw the past especially to self-identified black as well as other people and One Drop of “black” blood makes someone black so all these modern day “black” folks stop complaining.

Are you are going to tell Latin Carribbean people that their small amount of Taino blood from the past shouldn’t matter too?

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 1:57 pm ¶
Kat wrote:

Marie said:I say that from experience because I used to be one of those people! It used to drive me nuts when black people – including my own black mother – would say that all black people are mixed. I felt my experience was so invalidated by thatwhen I got older I realized there’s a lot of other people who get seen as black who have a white grandfather, great grandfather or whatever and nobody’s validating them on that either and that’s where the sentiment was coming from. Is it fair/unfair?
******************

I have African, Danish, French and Indian(from India) blood, in other words according to some posters on here- Black.

What is the cutoff point that makes multiracial into monoracial?

When does a person cease being multiracial and is now monracial?

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 2:19 pm ¶
JoannaW wrote:

“certainly no one would suggest that folks who look Middle Eastern, Indian, Latino, or Asian with no corresponding heritage should live out their lives as one of those races as a result of public consensus. In those instances, “you are what you people see you as” makes no sense. However, it can definitely impact a person’s perceptions and experiences in the world, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some multiracial people found that they related more to the experiences of groups that they appear to be than the experiences of the groups from whence they came in many situations.”

Ha! This is me. And my sister. And we aren’t even multiracial. And no, we don’t know what to about it. And I do often wonder what people are thinking. Although, sometimes I know only too well, every time I get told it’s a shame my parents didn’t teach me Spanish, or Hindi, or that I act too much like a white girl. Or someone telling me I shouldn’t be wearing a cross. Or people questioning me closely, asking “what are you?” and telling me my grandma must have been hiding something. Or a stranger asking me if I speak English.

A lot of time it’s kind of amusing, and it’s not my entire reality, but it certainly has made me very aware of the fact of race and ethnic identity as a social construct more than anything else. It is absolutely a social construct, no question.

Which is stronger? For me, my cultural identity that comes from my family and how I was raised is a lot stronger than external forces, but I’m certainly not unaware of how I am perceived, especially in a multi-everything city like Brooklyn.

Sometimes I think I should just wear a sign. But I’ve never been able to decide if it should read “White Girl! Really!” or “I’m just me.”

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 2:57 pm ¶
lyric wrote:

Until white supremacy no longer holds sway and white privilege and “whiteness” is no longer hegemonic, “blackness” will continue to be demonized/devalued and “multiracialisim/biracialism” will be read as a form of default “whiteness”. The contested terrain remains that of white supremacy which has the chameleon-like tendency to morph and disguise itself as it erects systems of privilege that continue to, bottom-line, debase and devalue “blackness”. Until people of color recognize that the only way to ascribe and sustain healthy identities is to relentlessly challenge and undermine “whiteness” and combat the demonization of “blackness”, our conversations will unwittingly foster and legitimize the system of white privilege and global white supremacy that erodes our humanity.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 3:12 pm ¶
L. wrote:

@Marie:
Thank you for that!

@Kat: again, I agree

@ CVT: As a matter of fact, I’ll just reply to you on that particular post.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 4:41 pm ¶
L. wrote:

@Little Mixed Girl:
The fact is that most “African-Americans” and most black people whose ancestors were involved in the slave trade have a multiracial ancestry. I never go around claiming to be mixed, and the only way people know about my multiracial ancestry is when they ask me what I’m mixed with (which does happen and I don’t do anything to elicit it). I guess the point of contention for me throughout this whole thing is that I’m not trying to run around and “out-mix” mixed people. I’m not trying to lay claims to your unique experiences. But it’s a little unfair for you to continue to box monoracials into a solid identity because you don’t think that their “13%” is valid enough to claim, and all the while you think it’s unfair that monoracials want to box you into a category because they don’t think your experiences are unique enough to validate. The point I’m trying to make is that my ancestry is not all African, there’s a multitude of races in there. And that’s true for a lot (more than half in this country based on most recent estimates) of African-Americans. So for a lot of us, to be black includes having a multiracial ancestry. And a lot of what you’re saying, on the receiving end, sounds like your trying to define our identity for us. And I believe that’s a problematic issue for you as a mixed person. I guess I’m trying to say that it’s two sides of the same coin. You can’t be upset that black or monoracial people claim a multiracial ancestry because you consider them to be black, same as I can’t be upset that you want to identify as mixed and not “choose one” because I have multiracial ancestry. We have no say in how the other identifies and chooses to express that. And, if in your personal experiences, “monoracials” are claiming to have the same experiences as you do, I encourage you to explain to them (calmly) why it’s not the same (like the way Myles did). But don’t assume that just because I start talking about my grandmother and her family that I’m trying to say that we’re the same. Not everyone thinks that way.

Biracial and multiracial people striving for acceptance, recognition, and respect for their identities is different from African-Americans striving to have their whole history accepted, recognized, and respected for its depth and diversity. And you shouldn’t assume that all black people who mention their “13%” think that the two are the same. For me, the latter is done with the understanding that I am black and that I will always be black and that you rarely have to question my racial identity based on my skin color; I just want others to accept that black is a lot of things, including having a multiracial heritage and that I have experiences and personal beliefs that draw from that. You can call me black all day; just let me define it.

Just like your identity is not a matter of just one or the other (and not both), my African-American black identity is not a matter of just black (and nothing else). And just like you want me to see it from your POV, I want you to see it from mine. That’s the only way to really understand each other.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 4:44 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:

@ little mixed:
I think you’re bringing sentiments from other forums and projecting them onto the monoracial black commenters that haven’t said
“they have no right to claim mixedness because they are running away from blackness. all blacks in america are without a doubt mixed, so why should someone with a white parent be able to say that they are mixed?, etc etc”

*nobody* said anything along that line or that marrying white folks is bad and I think you’re bringing more hostility towards monoracial blacks in this thread than is called for. We have a chance to have a different conversation about this topic and you’re arguing against ideas and accusations that have not been presented. I can understand why you’d do that, I just don’t think it gets the convo anywhere. If you want to share your experiences that’s cool but please do it without putting words in people’s mouths.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 7:06 pm ¶
GOODYMAN wrote:

Angela writes:

“We have to stop allowing others to define us in the sense that we claim false dangerous labels like–”white”. If we indeed have a European parent/relative–claim the ethnicity not being part white. To claim whiteness is to claim this destructive lens that seeks to oppress by ostricizing and otherizing so called “non-whites”. We multi-ethtnic people should resist these false labels.”

*****
“If you don’t understand racism/white supremacy, what it is and how it works, everything you THINK you know will only confuse you.” – Neely Fuller, Jr.

Angela, in this present system of global patriarchial white supremacy, you are one of two things (FUNCTIONALLY)

1. White
2. Non-White

The question of function, behavior, attitude, intention, utility, is one that isn’t assumed on this blog, and really doesn’t have to be because it’s clear that all the participants have goodwill towards one another.

Unfortunately, that’s not the way the world works, nor is it how people universally behave. People tend to do and say any manner of unseemly thing to one another in the guise of liberty or the ungodly notion of “keeping it real” or being “politically incorrect”…

The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9.. “the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who knows what it is capable of?”.

So, as enlightening as this discussion may be, the key thing is to guard your heart, and seek wisdom regarding certain matters.

I’m inclined to think that whatever one self-identifies with – trumps all – as a few have already stated. They know in their heart who truly has their best interests at heart..

…as LisaJ has already written:

“I just want to say to everyone, bi-racial, multi-racial, African-American, European-American, Asian- American, Chinese, Japanese, Native American, Indian, African, European, Asian, and everyone I’ve left out, I want to embrace you all say am trying to have your best interest at heart and to be respectful to you all. Truly. I wish the best for you and hope the conversation continues to be the positive, intelligent and for the enlightenment of us all.”

This should be a sentiment that should NEVER go without saying, it’s edifying and uplifting and signifies the decency and love that one should have for their neighbor.

Dig that.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 7:18 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@lyric –

I believe sentiments like yours are similar to what chafes littlemixedgirl.

Until white supremacy no longer holds sway and white privilege and “whiteness” is no longer hegemonic, “blackness” will continue to be demonized/devalued and “multiracialisim/biracialism” will be read as a form of default “whiteness”.

I hear this argument often, and agree that we should fight against the demonization/devaulation of blackness (or speaking more globally, “browness”).

However.

I also note that conversations here tend to take place on the personal and the societal level. So while on a societal level, it makes complete sense to signal solidarity by identifying as nonwhite, personally, that choice is much more complicated. No one wants to deny part of their background or parentage. And no one should be forced to.

I haven’t spoken often about this, but my best friend is multiracial (PoC/PoC mix). She identifies primarily as black. And yet, she receives the most challenges, issues, and ignorant comments about her identity from overly politicized blacks who feel free to ask her offensive questions like “Are you only black because your other side rejected you?”

Claiming a multiracial/biracial/multiethnic heritage is not buying into “default whiteness.”

I would argue it is the choice one makes when they reject the socially constructed zero sum game and choose themselves.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 7:47 pm ¶
GOODYMAN wrote:

So Latoya…

Is it possible for EVERYONE to be edified in these matters.

I’m referencing your “..reject the socially constructed zero sum game…” statement.

When we choose ourselves.. are you saying that then, WE win?

This, in essence is a rebuff of the zero sum game mentality..the winners and losers ideology.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 8:19 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

93 Celeste

I think for a lot of people on here this is the first time they have really been confronted with how some multiracial people feel about various forms of mono people.

Sometimes I feel like monoracial people just want to whine about how hard their lives are and attempt to force their wills onto me.

What little mixed girl said earlier about monoracial people claiming mixed people after they get famous or obtain a certain level of status is true. And I think this feeds into the sense of monoracial people being condescending jerks that just want to control you.

Before I entered college, most of my experiences with someone *wanting* me to be Black largely hinged on them wanting to date me. I saw this as them trying to test my willingness to subjugate myself to their wills, to let them control my identity.

Once I entered college and was on campus, I noticed that I was suddenly seen seen as being more acceptable to the Black community, mainly if they referenced something about me that could benefit me in making money later on.

I reach a status that many people don’t, and suddenly the people that were perfectly happy to have me in that “Other” category start sniffing around.

I remember seeing a show on Mariah Carey, and some of the people that she worked with talked about how at first they were apprehensive to work with her because they thought she was just “some white girl” and then they realized that she “listen to hip hop, all day, everyday” and that she “was black” and suddenly that apprehension they were feeling went away. I think it was a producer but part of me thinks it was a guy from Boys II Men.

This is what upsets many multiracial people and makes us pathologize monos. Many of us have experiences of feeling like entire communities will never accept us. And then one day we do something cool and then the floodgates open and suddenly we are assaulted with a brigade of people that want to contain and control us and have our talents associated with their group.

But then monoracial people don’t understand were we are coming from and just see us getting annoyed by them as us “rejecting them when they are just trying to be nice.” or we are “running from identifying with them”

Like how some see Obama as running from his whiteness by IDing as Black-biracial, or partially black monoracial people as running from their blackness if they ID as multiracial.

Monos get their feelings hurt, but many of them never take the time to see why so many multiracial people feel the way that they do.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 8:58 pm ¶
CVT wrote:

@L. -
I got your comment, and I’ll continue that conversation on my blog to avoid over-commenting on this one. CVT out.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 9:00 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Goodyman –

When we choose ourselves.. are you saying that then, WE win?

This, in essence is a rebuff of the zero sum game mentality..the winners and losers ideology.

Yes.

This does not mean that we ignore the structures of society or pretend that if everyone closes their eyes to the realities that we face, everything will be okay.

But it does mean that sometimes, due to the nature of the battles, we forget what we are ultimately fighting for.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 9:15 pm ¶
L. wrote:

@ Myles:
“Monos get their feelings hurt, but many of them never take the time to see why so many multiracial people feel the way that they do.”

But do you ever take the time to see why so many monoracials get their feelings hurt and try to have an honest exchange?

That’s what I’m saying. Your experiences are real and I respect that, but you can’t complain about one without at least trying to understand the other.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 9:45 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

99. Laytoya Peterson

“But it does mean that sometimes, due to the nature of the battles, we forget what we are ultimately fighting for.”

Jeez. That needs to be on t-shirts, posters, billboards, etc.

It’s something I need to work on keeping in mind when I feel like going monobashing because I had to deal with “______________________” again.

I’m glad you are the mod of this blog.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 9:52 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

100. L.

I do see where they are coming from. But when I had shown them that I see were they are coming from, the people that I have dealt with have pretty much used it to say that I was being willfully annoying and just wanted to go against “their rules” just to be an ass.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 9:58 pm ¶
Angela wrote:

@goodyman

That is precisely my point. We should be not using oppresive language to define ourselves. When we stop wearing those glasses they lose their effect.

@marie 83

While those who buy into and need the idea of “whiteness” may call your children “white” and treat your children with that priveledge for as long as it exists, you do not have to buy into or use that label. Your children should embrace their Swedishness, Africaness, and Scandinavianess. They shouldn’t adopt the “label” white because others choose to use it. Once those who benefit from the priviledge of “whiteness” stop using it, it will cease to exist. It is an idea that hasn’t always been here and can go away just like every bad idea should.

It’s funny this post made me think of another post related to the recent police brutality/murders. Someone mentioned how protesting, marching, suing, supervisory boards, and riots have not worked. Ultimately these have not worked because the people who can make the change have not stepped up. When police officers– those who are good cops–step up and protest the actions of their colleagues, that’s when police brutality/murder will end.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 10:18 pm ¶
lyric wrote:

What you term the devaluation of “brown-ness” — the subjugation and demonization of people of color the world over—is predicated on the demonization and devaluation of blackness. White supremacy is first and foremost a system that devalues and demonizes blackness. All other systems of subjugation that involve colorism are permutations of this essential dichotomy.
Recognizing that “multiracialism” is often used to continue to inscribe the black/white dichotomy does not mean that multiracial and biracial persons should deny part of their heritage and/or fail to acknowledge the white parent. It means that ideologically/politically, the multiracial/biracial person realizes that until white supremacy is dismantled and blackness no longer demonized and despised that a multiracial identity often is coopted to further inscribe the hegemony of whiteness/white privilege. As my 26 year old “biracial” daughter often says, “It is not my “whiteness” that I defend, but my “blackness”—knowing that it is her “blackness” that is consistently demeaned, despised and diminished in a world predicated upon the valorization of “whiteness” at all costs.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 10:58 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

104. Lyric

And what about Native Americans? What about how we were demonized, what about how we were destroyed, what about how we are forever discounted and forgotten and whenever we pop up to defend ourselves we are discounted yet again.

If we are talking about who got screwed over first, Native Americans should get top billing. We have largely been eliminated from the minds of most citizens of the US

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 11:10 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@lyric –

It means that ideologically/politically, the multiracial/biracial person realizes that until white supremacy is dismantled and blackness no longer demonized and despised that a multiracial identity often is coopted to further inscribe the hegemony of whiteness/white privilege.

Your theory is sound.

However the problem with theory is that:

(1) Realistically speaking, you will find that not all multiracial people buy into the idea of white supremacy (and, it should be noted that many monoracial people are also quite uncomfortable with the term/idea/concept.)

(2) Not all multiracial individuals wish to ally politically with people of color. If you look around the internet, you find people who want to ally with PoC, people who want to deny that they have a PoC background, and people who would prefer that multiracials have their own unique movement, separate from monoracial struggles.

(3) The idea of a global brown – which I subscribe to – often stumbles in the face of internalized racism where PoC do not see themselves allied among similar struggles. Often, our own inherent struggles within ourselves and our own communities stay there at that one level, because we do not see each other as allies, rather than competitors for the same small slice of leftover pie.

To not acknowledge these things is why it is so difficult to apply ideas into worldwide practice.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 11:17 pm ¶
chicagorose wrote:

I wish I could train myself to just read the entire thread before diving in with a very long typed out response. But sometimes it’s frustrating when you know you feel a certain way but you wade through the commentary, and by the time you get through you think, “I have nothing to contribute”. It can get intimidating. But felt a pull to what Futurebird first posted, as my history speaks to that experience. My reply directly addresses that and the article, so it’s framed in the historically black/white American context.

Futurebird wrote:

“Part of what irritates me as a black person about identifying people with one white and one black parent as “bi-racial” or “mixed race” or “half-____” is that lots and lots and lots of black people are half-black or 1/4th white or 5/16ths black or… etc.

But some how our mixed heritage isn’t important unless it’s recent. And before you say “but you don’t have the impact of a white parent” — those white great grand parents and grandparents have an impact. Due to the prejudices of the time not always a positive one but still. I just don’t see the difference.

Then there is the matter of how it seems Obama is being called “half-white” now that he’s in the lead– I don’t know if it is intentional but it feels like the prize is being snack from us when people do that. Everything we do that’s good is attributed to our whiteness… the bad to the blackness.

It like the teach I had who said that I seemed very light and perhaps that’s why I have such an analytical personality.”

This. Cosign.

Whenever I read the “But it’s different for us,” argument, I dig my nails into something, mainly because it’s dismissive even as it’s only partially true. You don’t have to be bi-racial to go through a huge chunk of what gets expressed as unique to that group. Looking bi-racial or mixed, is quite enough to get the ball rolling, big time. My grandmother’s brother was listed in the military as Chinese, because the Native American strain on his father’s side presented itself as ‘chinky’ eyes. People in Europe refused to see my mother as black, even when her pressed hair ‘went back’, because they’d never seen lighter skinned blacks before. And I had a very uncomfortable, frightening experience in a grocery store as a teenager when a person from university practically accosted me with his insistence that I was Spanish. Again, my memory is faint, but I believe he was European.

And the bi-racial people ‘way back when’ had no choice how to self identify reasoning, simply put, also offends. It ignores the simple fact that distinctions and categories have always been allowed for people who were then considered to be mulatto, ones that spared them the ‘plight’ of being ‘merely negro’. It also ignores the sheer determination and mindset of people of African descent during harsher times to define their own existence rather than waiting upon a more liberal climate to assert who they felt themselves to be. MANY mulattoes were very emphatic that they considered themselves to be negro. MANY were empahatic that they weren’t. MANY felt they were the start of a great merge that would inevitably take place. Sound familiar?

What also hasn’t being examined (probably because it’s taboo), are the different sets of motivations at times being brought to the table via a black male parent vs black female parent, or, white parental concerns vs those of black, such as, not wanting their children to be “boxed in” or “ghettoized” or “seen as black”, which, I’m sorry, it’s all code for saying, “I chose to be in an interracial relationship but I buy into the sterotype of blackness being a limitation,” or “I’m black but I choose to shed that ‘burden of blackness’ through my relationship and through my children”.

The whole lightening the line issue, which I’ve seen my entire life being played out by black males, and which can be seen just by looking at any old family photo album. And yes, I have also seen the pretty baby syndrome act itself among the black female population, so we don’t get a pass either. In my great-grandfather’s case, he put forth this summation: “I did the best I could when I married your mother”. She was half white and could pass.

Of the entire family, she was the only peson to take trips back to Georgia to visit family, and that included her white relatives who were aware of her existence. She was born before the turn of the 20th century. Her father saw to her education. But for her brother it was an entirely different story. His black aunts had to take him in. Where she saw no problem in passing for practical purposes (shopping downtown where blacks were excluded or heavily discouraged), my uncle HATED white people. And HATED being mistaken as white. The fluidity of identity between siblings isn’t all that different today.

The class structure in black culture has worked very much along a colorline with an unusually high concentration of darker skinned people at the bottom and lighter skinned/mixed people at the top. Can you say caste system and white privilege? What nobody ever acknowledges is how much of that privilege was transferred over, actively, via the white parent: Petitions for freedom, land ownership, higher education, financial stability, job placement, beneficial marriages. The actual insistence that their offspring be seen differently… Um, that. This was one of the reasons Obama met with a whole ton of suspician from Chicago south siders initially, some of the other reasons being the gentrification by young black urban proffesionals that has steadfastly been taking place in, and around, Hyde Park. And it was bad enough when a certain segment of the black community wanted to severe its ties with the ‘unwashed heathen masses’, but now white people have started playing that game with Obama’s identity (and a growing number of people who self identify strictly as bi-racial), by making clearly backhanded affirmations that “Obama isn’t really black”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-calling-obama-black-is-an-insult-to-his-mother-842808.html

http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/barack_obama_isnt_black.php

http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/certificate-of-whiteness/

Do you really have to wonder why the classification (and seeming movement) of bi-racial gets met with a massive plate of side eye? And I’ll be honest. This whole attitude of “You’re either with us or against us”, and idiotic rules of blackness within the African American community, which is a nasty side effect of the black movement hasn’t helped. But neither has the at times patronizing attitude blacks have gotten from some bi-racials that we ‘just don’t get it’, as if we’re ignorant and separate fom the issues of a multiracial existence, when, dammit *headbutt* we ARE multiracial. Many of us actually know, intimately, our family histories, we aren’t just ‘clinging’ to a black identity, and the nuances and complexities of race, perception and identity aren’t foreign to us. In other words, we’ve been there and done that. You’re merely Racial Identity 2.0: The Remix. And I haven’t even touched upon heated emotions and dynamics that get triggered in families, playgrounds, high school, college, friendships, dating, and community regardless of how you identify or what your racial background is when you happen to look a certain way, or don’t ‘match’ the rest of your family.

I think, one of the critical reasons the African American community has such great emotion about Obama isn’t because he shares our ‘dna’. It’s because he ‘gets it’. He just plain gets it. He gets black culture. He gets it’s history. He gets White privilege. He gets the importance of embracing one’s entire identity and moving forward. He doesn’t play everybody’s little reindeer games. Not those of whites. Or blacks. Nor the bi-racial community. And it’s like being able to give your skull a break from bashing the walls.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 12:12 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

@ Myles: I guess what I’m asking is for, at least in this discussion, is for you and littlemixed to treat the subject of monoracial people the way you would want monoracial people to treat bi/multiracial people when you’re discussing them. That’s it. By all means share your negative experiences and how they made you feel. If that could happen without making huge generalizations and defining/limiting other people in the exact same way that monos have done that’d be great.
“It’s something I need to work on keeping in mind when I feel like going monobashing because I had to deal with “______________________” again.”

You keep mentioning your bad experiences with black people (reminds me a bit of the Mike Jones song “Back Then”). However, lots of black people have bad experiences with their blackness . I believe that if we got into a “black people were mean to me” pissing contest I’d give you a run for your money, if not beat you outright. I personally don’t have a lot of sympathy for the “the people with whom I share some heritage were mean to me so I bash them” excuse from monos or mixed people. I personally sympathize more with the unique experience of having parents of different races a lot more because that’s not something I have any personal experience with.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 2:02 am ¶
futurebird wrote:

“What nobody ever acknowledges is how much of that privilege was transferred over, actively, via the white parent: Petitions for freedom, land ownership, higher education, financial stability, job placement, beneficial marriages. The actual insistence that their offspring be seen differently… Um, that.”

This is a very good point and much larger than I think most people know. My family was given shares of land at a time when it was hard for black people to own land at all. This was due to to family ties… ties never spoken of but ties that are there. That land was used to get a loan to buy a house– our whole success is in part tied to having a skimpy bit of capitial for once. And it’s a form of priviliage, yes, and I’ll never know if it was rape, or “love” that put that land in our hands.

It feels dishonest to me to just sit around and pretend that it never happned. That’s a part of my “multi-racial story” and in many ways it isn’t “pretty” –

I’m not just saying “we’re all mixed race let’s hold hands” I’m talking about real instances of priviliage and prejudice colorism and racism. We lived in the same towns as the white people who were our cousins, half -brothers, fathers and mothers. No one could ever speak of it.

So, when I’m told to stop talking about it I feel like nothing has changed.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 3:55 am ¶
L. wrote:

I know I’m commenting a lot, but hopefully this will be my last one on this thread…

While I don’t agree with the argument that the bi/multi-racial experience is largely shared with monoracials, I am glad that Futurebird and chicagorose have brought up the point of black people who don’t look stereotypically black. It’s as if whenever you have lighter brown skin, longer hair, a smaller nose, or are deemed attractive (and in some cases smart) to any degree, it’s because you’re not all black. Well, as a matter of fact I’m not, but these qualities aren’t the result of mixed ancestry.

@ Celeste:
“I guess what I’m asking is for, at least in this discussion, is for you and littlemixed to treat the subject of monoracial people the way you would want monoracial people to treat bi/multiracial people when you’re discussing them. That’s it. By all means share your negative experiences and how they made you feel. If that could happen without making huge generalizations and defining/limiting other people in the exact same way that monos have done that’d be great.”

Clearly better than I said it and it still bears repeating.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 3:57 am ¶
vera wrote:

Chicagorose-
very elegant post and correct. All I have to say is that *some* biracials* get angry at some in the black community and I cannot understand why. The *black* community accepted biracials when their white families would not, the famous and infamous – but now all of a sudden to some biracials, blacks are *holding them back*, only accepting the famous- but isn’t that true of some in the white community?
I can say that researching my ancestry, I noticed that a lot of my ancestors suddenly “disappeared”, I know what happened personally with some, but I through my research I noticed that a lot more went into the white community and never came back. That is one thing I find so laughable about this whole biracial movement NOW, this has been going on since the stone age (*mixing* of races*), the only difference is that white america in the early days chose your race for you, but to some biracials it seems it is all the fault of blacks. Before the horrible institute of American slavery, people were identified by their culture, tribe, not the color of their skin, it was not important.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 7:22 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

ugh, if i wasn’t on the other side of the world, i could reply faster.

anyways, i do understand quite well the various sentiments that monoracials have towards multiracial people.

as the the reply to my “13%” thing, i’m not saying that a person should “forget” their ancestry.
but, hmm…i find that the people who talk about their multiple ancestries do it in the same way that they talk about buying a new shirt.

a few years ago, i was on a bus when a girl talking to her friend goes:
“i’m part-english, german and french, so, i’m just a mutt hahaha”.
i’ve heard people roll off a laundry list of ethnicities that they are, but you would never see those people caring about the issues that affect those groups.

nowadays it’s chic to pull an exotic ancestor out of your family closet, but when the day finishes, you go back to your regular monoracial life.
multiracial, multiethnic heritage just becomes, as i said, like a new shirt that someone has bought and wants to show off.

there were various multiracial communities that developed in the US south, and many of those communities are still there with their own identities.

the US has had east asians and indians who have also blended into our fabric. the country isn’t just a black/white dynamic.

so, no, i wouldn’t tell someone that they can’t explore their multiracial past.
but, again, exploring your past and telling someone who is mixed that their experience has little or no meaning because you had an ancestor of a different race isn’t something that people need to do either.

or, that people that identify as mixed are somehow running away from their “non-white” heritage (if they are part-white).
or taking pleasure in saying things like “well, people only see you as”.

that’s why i replied to this thread in the first place, because i felt like some posters were basically saying that mixed people (where mixed magically = black/white) were running away from blacks or used being half-white to their advantage.

to be clear, i for the most part have had positive experiences with black people.
i have had people who don’t know me shout things like “mulatto” or “half-indian”, etc at me.
(can we please stop using “mulatto”? it’s just a crappy nasty word that is outdated and comes off as racist to a lot of people)

i would like all communities to come together to fight racism.
but, i feel like minority communities want to brush mixed people to the side and only pull them out as examples of why not to mix.
…or pressuring mixed people to choose one identity to suit [insert monoracial group here]’s agenda.

…or something like that.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 7:47 am ¶
Myles wrote:

108. Celeste

From my experience there is a lot of overlap in the way that monos treat people that fall, or step, out of their ranks. I think there are definite patterns of behavior that monos show cross culturally when they are dealing with multi/bi people.

That’s where the generalizations come from. That’s why I sometimes feel like it is not that some monoracial people are closed minded, but perhaps I am just something they are just, through no fault of their own, incapable of dealing with. Like we are just a concept that is to strange and foreign to deal with.

That’s why I sometimes feel like it is “Us” as mixed people, against “Them” monoracial people.

Maybe it’s not that monos don’t understand where we are coming from, but it is that they can’t. Maybe I shouldn’t be upset when monos say or do mean or rude things because they can’t really control what they do when they are dealing with me.

But then I remember that I have mono friends that seem to get where I am coming from and are able to take that step back and see where I am coming from. And understand that my experiences might seem to overlap with __________, but are not exactly similar to.

As for Mike Jones “Back then,” I looked up the lyrics and they sound like something most people can relate to of having people not like you until you obtain a certain status.

Oh, and it’s better to not get in pissing contests with people, you never know how much the other person had to drink. And I think it’s a bit of a put down, like, “oh, you think you had it rough, I had it so much worse than you, you don’t know what you are talking about so you should just go in a corner and shut up.”

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 10:05 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

@ Myles: I could have used a better phrase than “pissing contest”. A better way to put it is that I think that if we went into some long detailed discussion on various slights from black people that our experiences and feelings of alienation would be very, very similar.

“And understand that my experiences might seem to overlap with __________, but are not exactly similar to.”

Is it possible in the history of the world that a monoracial black person could have have experiences that were exactly similar yours? I think so. It seems like you overemphasize the differences in your experiences to the complete exclusion of possible sameness.

I’m not saying I had it worse, I’m saying that is indeed possible to have bad experiences and still not bash and I don’t consider myself an exceptionally forgiving person at all. I’m not saying shut up, I’m saying “please stop using bad experiences as an excuse to generalize and limit when we’re trying to have a conversation in which no one’s trying to do the same to you”. If this were a different thread with people attacking you (i’ve seen such threads) and littlemixed made the same comments I probably wouldn’t bat an eyelash. However, in this thread it gives the impression that you don’t oppose generalizing and limiting people in priniciple, you just oppose it when it’s done to you. Kinda like when oppressed groups start returning the favor to the dominant group. Justified? Probably. Contructive? Probably not.

“Maybe it’s not that monos don’t understand where we are coming from, but it is that they can’t.”

Wow, that’s really limiting and condescending. You think so little of monos that no amount of dialogue will open our tightly closed minds? Really? What if I said that multiracials could never understand monos? That’s just nutty. I think if you approach dialogue with that mindset (as was the case in this thread), it becomes a self-fufilling prophecy. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. It seems to me like you’re asking me to be okay with your monobashing because you’ve had bad black people experiences (that I couldn’t possible wrap my mono mind around because there’s no could not possibly be similarity between our experiences) and that’s just not a good enough reason in my book. But then again that’s me. I do appreciate you and littlemixed sharing your feelings and experiences. Everything isn’t all kumbaya and it’s good to talk about it.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 3:06 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

I don’t think it’s because “they can’t.” I think it’s because most of the time monoracials honestly don’t want to because they’re too caught up in their own perceptions of what being biracial is like.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 8:19 pm ¶
The Human Race wrote:

I understand that social constructs such as a race have become a conflict and those conflicts need to be layed out on the table. However, the concept of race is so divisive that it is fustrating. Which is why it is of no suprise that the intended purpose of creating race categories in the first place was to divide and separate people and make people feel superior or inferior to one another based off of what was seen by the naked human eye.
People get so caught up in being specific with the labels they want to put on themselves. I love cultural diversity and I think the limit to labeling and boxing someone up should stop at culture and not what someone looks like on the outside. I have british relatives who are not mixed and are far from looking white, jamaican relatives who physically you could not tell if they were jamaican unless they opened up their mouths to showcase their accent or speak their dialect.
Now I understand that America is a complicated place filled with complicated notions and concepts because of its complicated history and cultural lines are simply reduced to black and white or black american/white American(btw whatever happened to just American? Nvm I know where that went lol) notwithstanding immigrants who migrate to this country. I just wish it was different that’s all.

Posted 20 Jan 2009 at 11:51 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:

Cosign Futurebird says “Multi-racial means mostly “looks a little black but not like most black people. I’m not talking about what most multi-racial people do or say, I’m talking about what multi-racial means to most Americans.”
Thx L for explaining my point so well.
@Angela, I am part white but to answer your DEMAND, the ethnicity of white is Scotch. Scotsman who owned my great great grandmother and fathered her children and subsequently freed them. (One of the few cases of the Love relationship).
@Human Race-I hear people say, why can’t you just be American? Its because when you are denied the rights of American citizenship, like my Father who fought in WWII and Korea and came back to biting horrible racism and disenfranchisement and couldn’t vote. It’s hard to say, what your country by its treatment, says you are NOT. That’s why I got Michelle Obama’s much maligned quote.
I have an elderly cousin who recently made me aware of my Native American heritage, but told me about why being Native and Black they downplayed the Native part because of the census takers, looking at them and classifying them as Black. When you talk to people now in their 80s, identify at times was the difference between keeping your land or losing it, sometimes, being killed or not. When it’s life an death identity and community affliation are more than just this is what I am and I can be fluid about it. I guess my question is if you consider yourself mixed, then what is your identity? is it who you are with at the time? Is it what you feel like you are in a situation? I personally look like a lot of things, but have been raised Black by Black parents, but know what the other aspects of my racial makeup are and at times enjoy cultural gatherings related to them. (Still have to track down those Scottish relative tho-but did buy the family tartan when in Windsor). Identity on a political level goes to the definition of community and boundary lines, which go to federal funding and gerrymandering which go to allocation of political representatives and resources and economic zones and a whole bunch of things that make a lot of difference to POC. If you ignore the reality of this, then all this “want to be understood” dialogue doesn’t mean a damn thing. So while we are sorting out mono vs. multi racial, how does this translate into people and children in communities getting what they need?

Posted 21 Jan 2009 at 5:26 pm ¶
Kat wrote:

#117 said: Identity on a political level goes to the definition of community and boundary lines, which go to federal funding and gerrymandering which go to allocation of political representatives and resources and economic zones and a whole bunch of things that make a lot of difference to POC. If you ignore the reality of this, then all this “want to be understood” dialogue doesn’t mean a damn thing.
*********************

A lot of people don’t understand that the real purpose of racial categories is mainly political and economics.

Back in the day, how one identified literally meant privilege or disenfranchisement. Rights or no Rights.

Posted 21 Jan 2009 at 10:09 pm ¶
Angela wrote:

@117 I definitely was not demanding anything. I think you misunderstand my comment which was directed at a specific question based on my earlier post.

If your curious, my original post was at 71.

Posted 22 Jan 2009 at 8:55 pm ¶
Amber wrote:

When asked about my racial background I tell people that I’m mixed, or bi-racial. I am black/white, and it’s pretty obvious. If people of mixed race always say that they’re one or the other, others will always assume that everybody who is mixed (black/white for ex.) self-identifys as black when that’s simply not true. No matter how “society” sees me, I will always answer truthfully—I’m mixed. Period.

Posted 22 Jan 2009 at 9:44 pm ¶
Michelle wrote:

I would just like to ask who came up with the term mono-racial? That sounds like the craziest term I have ever heard in my life. I find it insulting for many reasons.

1. It sounds like something that someone who is and/or sees themselves as outside the “group” came up with to label “us” with. I, like EVERYONE else on this blog, reject being labeled.

2. People who live in the US, who are the descendants of slaves, are some of the most racially mixed people in the world. Ethnically speaking, we are an amalgamation of many, many different ethnic groups, tribes, languages and religions. Even if you subscribe to the idea of race being biological (which we here do not) then “African-Americans” are anything but monoracial.

3. I get littlemixed girl talking about ancestors that people pull out of the closet, but what about a grandparent who raised you? Is that equivalent to a new shirt? If the grandparent who raised you is multi-racial and passes all their inherent thoughts and ideas onto you, their pretty much immediate offspring, if you call yourself multiracial are you somehow being flippant and disrespectful to someone who has a white mother or father? What about how others view you as a result of having a grandparent who “can pass”? The term monoracial doesn’t address that experience, or the myriad of experiences that are similar to the one I described. What about step-parents or adopted parents? And, who draws the line as to how far back “mono-racial” are allowed to go to express their heritage as they see fit?

4. Mono is a colloquial term for mononucleosis. It is small, but I don’t want anyone on this board or anywhere else in the world referring to me as a mono. A word that is also short for a viral disease. That is like calling me a SIDS, short for Someone Identifying Definitively Solelyblack. Oh and it just happens to also be short for Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.

5. The term Black, for me, has also captured the nuances of what is means to be “me” in this country. A descendant of horrible crimes against humanity, and yet amazing examples of the triumph of the human spirit. It says, for me, that I am an African who was transformed by the middle passage, the experience of bondage, the learning of new brain patterns to create a pidgin language, the mixing of different tribes and ethnic groups from across the continent of Africa, not to mention the Americas, not to mention Europe.

Posted 24 Jan 2009 at 3:57 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

121 Michelle

4, SIDS? SIDS?

Do you know how hard it will be for me not to use that now?

When the mixed/multi people in this comment section are referring to mono people we are not just talking about African American/Black people. We are talking about monoracial people in general.

And I feel pretty comfortable doing this. Yes, I realize there is a big difference between being from being White and being Asian. Or being Black and being Indian.

But for many multiracial people interactions with monoracial people follows a very distinct, consistent pattern.

I think this is why many of the people in this comment section are using the term mono, it encapsulates dealing with people who see themselves as being “so unique, and so diverse, and have been through so much at the hands of _________.” Dealing with people who are divided into tiny little subgroups based on something someone decided a long time ago made them so much better than everyone else. They have their different languages, foods, customs.

But they treat us the same. They stare at us. They follow us in stores, the mall, school. They cross streets to get a better look. They stop us, interrupt our days, just to ask us how we came to be. They pick us apart, treat us like we owe them an explanation and an apology. Like it’s our fault that we are so confusing they you have to take time out of your day to interrogate us.

And you devalue us. After all of your questions coupled with your incredulous stares, you make statements about how weird we are, and how special we aren’t.

When we talk about our lives you feel it is your right to tell us that we are wrong. That our identities wrong you. How ignorant and inferior we are. How we should bend to your wills and view of us. How we should change ourselves so that we confuse and challenge you less.

This is just a taste of how it is to be mixed. This is why I feel so comfortable using the term mono to describe “such a wide variety oh people.”

To so consistently get a reaction out of someone, no matter where they are from, their culture or environment that they grew up in seems to indicate that we are dealing something on the verge of an instinct. An instinct to know who is in the ingroup or outgroup.

If the multi people didn’t have these cross-cultural experiences, I don’t think mono would be used as much. There wouldn’t be the need or ability to create a dichotomy that would group billions of people into one group against millions of people in another.

And I realize that this comment will be half-read just for a juicy bit to respond to, but it is important to note that many multiracial/ethnic/sexual people understand what it is like to be a mono. We see your lives, we have learned about your histories. But to constantly acknowledge your back stories and histories makes our comments longer and the content even easier to ignore.

Posted 25 Jan 2009 at 1:26 am ¶
Michelle wrote:

Myles,

I totally get what you are saying.

I have never done any of the following;

1. Crossed the street to ask someone what they are.
2. Asked anyone that I have just met, what they are. And I am EXTREMELY sensitive about when and where I ask. I only ask if it comes up in conversation and they are talking about where they lived, where their parents are from, etc. And generally, they have asked me that question first, but more on that later.

3. I NEVER stare at people. Period.

4. I don’t follow people in malls (well, when I was thirteen I did, once, but it didn’t have anything to do with the person being multi racial)

5. I have never told anybody that their multi racial existence is wrong, or that it offends me.

In short, I have never done anything that you have accused us “monos” of doing. And yes, I have had every single one of those experiences that you speak of. But I realize that while my experiences are the same as yours, that you see yourself as separate and distinct from people that you call monos.

However, I must tell you that I am someone who you would want to have a dialouge with. My children will be mono, plain old, Black, dark, phenotypically Negroid, West African looking Black people. I am charged with teaching them how to deal in the world. I will not allow them to accept a term that someone else coined that is insulting, just because some other people were mean to him and his multi-racial brethren. So, in the interest of dialogue and forward movement and thinking, where does that leave us? I capitulate to you. I consider myself Black, and I no longer consider any one Black unless they say so. I don’t care what they look like. I don’t stare. I live and let live. Despite my playing on your court, you want to hurl insults because someone else (or a lot of someone else’s) have been inexcusably horrible to you.

Lastly, within that “mono” group that you speak of, many of those “colored” mono groups have had more than enough slurs hurled at them that we are well within our rights to resist the use of the term mono. Please, think of something else. I mean, really! Singular Ethnics. How about Unis, uni-ethnic idetifying people? See, I am trying to meet you half way.

Btw, I read your whole comment. I don’t think you read all of mine. I am going back to re-read it. Even as a uni, I strive for further understanding.

Posted 25 Jan 2009 at 6:45 pm ¶
texascowgirl wrote:

I can’t speak for other mixes, but it’s always been possible to be both black and biracial. That’s why Barack can be a biracial black man. So was Frederick Douglas and Halle Berry is a biracial black woman like my grandmother. They have never been exclusive of one another. It just seems funny that so many whites now want to claim what they have always rejected. I’m sure Barack was plenty black when the Rev Wright story broke out. That was all about making him as black as possible and a scary, angry black at that. Black people didn’t make these rules, they were made for us and now here we are a hybrid people. Black people did not say “hey white folks don’t worry about your half black offspring, we’ll take care of them oursleves and you can pretend they don’t exisit”. If many biracial black people aren’t eager to “claim” their whiteness, it shouldn’t be a mystery why. White society has made that as hard for them as possible and for the most part, they have had a welcoming home with black folks. They catch some hell, but so do dark skinned black folks. We do have our issues, but you can be black and have a white parent in way that you can’t be white and have a black parent, if you look black.

Things may change and hopefully we will get to a point where race doesn’t matter period and there are no little boxes, but for now being “white” is still a category of racial “purity” whereas being black is not. And any frustration about that shouldn’t be directed at black people or biracial people who identify as black. We/they have never had the opportunity to make the rules on this stuff. We’ve just coped with it the best we could and built a community out of it.

Posted 25 Jan 2009 at 11:03 pm ¶
L. wrote:

Wow Michelle, I think I love you.

Posted 26 Jan 2009 at 1:19 am ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

hmm…i definitely posted a reply here a few days ago that i don’t see up…

i use the term monoracial to refer to people who identify with one race and who see themselves as one race.

i use terms like multiracial and multiethnic to identify as such.

if a person has a grandparent who is a different race or has been raised identifying as multiracial, i have no problem accepting that. however, i feel like there are monoracial people who identify monoracially that occasionally feel the need to tell people that they’re 1/79th native american…princess, because it seems exotic.

and what sets off my radar is when topics of multiracial people revolve around ONLY black and white, as if these are the only 2 races in the US.

inevitably, ALL blacks somehow become mixed, but no whites are mixed.
(sound strange? it is!)

topics of mixed people in the US also seem to only revolve around biracial, half-white individuals.
trivializing the experiences of minority-minority multiracial people, and turning the topic of multiracial identity as a form of “running away” from “minority status”.

when the reality is that many mixed people want to be able to identify as mixed and have it be that.
if a mixed person wants to identify as a monoracial, i personally don’t agree with it, but…ok i guess.

but, let’s not act like multiracial people who identify as such are somehow choosing to be something “better”.
because in the end, multiracial people are minorities!
we are just identifying as multiracial minorities.
transracially adopted people also get together with multiracial individuals, because we have similar experiences.

as to “passing”. i hate the term.
if someone is half-asian, but appears to others as “full” asian, is it really passing?

i don’t see how you can “pass” for part of your own race!
i would say someone is passing if they look, say, pakistani but have no ancestors from the area. or they look black, but they are from the philippines with no black ancestors.
that to me is passing.

=/

Posted 26 Jan 2009 at 8:52 am ¶
Michelle wrote:

There are two races in the United States. Black and White.

Race is a social construct created specifically to insure that one “race” is dominant over the other. As this construct has molded and changed over the years in America it has relied on the dichotomy between Black and White. In fact, that is the only way it can continue to thrive.

There are hundreds, possibly even thousands of ethnic groups in America, but only one race. If we are going to continually spout that race is a social construct then we are going to have to charge ourselves with being exceptionally rigorous with our language.

Posted 27 Jan 2009 at 3:12 am ¶
Myles wrote:

127. Michelle

No.

Just no.

There are not two races in the United States, there never has been, there probably won’t be. Race in the United States has always dealt with all of the different races that were here at whatever period in history (usually Native American, European, and African, at least until Asians showed up a little later).

Yes, the history of the United States is often times delivered as a constant internal battle between White and Black people, but that’s the delivery, not the reality.

And that’s were the word privilege pops up again. Maybe it is your privilege as a Black person to only have to deal with White and Black people in your everyday life. Maybe it is your privilege to see race in the United States as a Black and White issue. Maybe it is your privilege to not to have to understand the history of all of the other Non-White and Non-Black people in the United States, to be sheltered from that reality.

That is what is upsetting so many people on this thread. As Non-Black-Non-White people their existence is constantly discounted in the United States. They are constantly told “that’s nice, but who cares about you,” by the White and Black community. Their history is glossed over.

Race never was a Black and White issue in the United States, the hegemons just framed it that way.

Posted 02 Feb 2009 at 10:20 am ¶
Michelle wrote:

Sorry Myles.

I only believe in race as a social construct. If you believe that humanity is really divided up into different races then that is on you. I believe in the human race.

That said, I just think it fascinating that you simply can’t read (hear) anything that I say.

I said “There are hundreds, possibly even thousands of ethnic groups in America, but only one race.” How do I gloss over other groups? How do I not include every group in the struggle for more humane concepts of who we are as global citizens? And then you go and accuse this poor old negro girl of being privileged because of her black skin, nappy hair and narrow minded ways. Hmmm, I include everyone in my concept of the human race and simultaneously managed to not care about anybody who isn’t Black or White. Wow.

I do think that a discussion about how we speak about race is merited since we are always agreeing on race being a social construct and then we slip right back into the same linguistic traps about race being real and undeniable.

I just really am fascinated by how you listen to people whom you consider to be mono ethnic. It is almost like you have a filter through which you listen to me/us through. I am actually saying something that is inline with the things that you have been saying on this thread and somehow you only hear, “I only care about Blacks! Or Whites!” Fascinating. Your pain must be really deep. I am sorry. I know that it must have been hard to constantly work to carve out your identity everyday in the face of no agreement from the rest of the world. I just want you to know that I really do feel for what you have gone through your whole life.

Posted 03 Feb 2009 at 4:55 am ¶

Quoted: Gwen Ifill on the Question of (Biracial) Identity

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