Trackbacks & Pings

1. Link from Racialicious « Just Across the Genesee on 09 Jan 2009 at 4:30 pm

   [...] need to post this link here because I think there are some really important points made, not only in the post but also in [...]

2. Dating outside the community for African Americans - Page 2 - AznLover.com - Asian/AMXF Social Networking Community on 22 Jan 2009 at 2:07 am

   [...] is going to be pushed more. On a “slightly different but not really off the topic” topic, Racialicious posted an interesting blog about the Obama being married to a black woman and people’s reactions to [...]

Comments

1. stella wrote:

   Excellent Post!

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 7:49 am ¶

2. jaye wrote:

   One thing that jumped out at me about Obama, and made me feel like he was somebody who you could trust, was that his wife was Michelle. He was with a woman who was darker-skinned than him in a world where most powerful men go for women lighter-skinned than they are. I felt like it spoke to his character…I’m not sure if I’m right or wrong about that, but I still feel it very strongly.

   As for the interracial relationship double standard…I don’t think it’s a double standard, because there’s a different history between black men-white women, than black women-white men, so I think the relationships actually signify different things.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 8:13 am ¶

3. Celeste wrote:

   I strongly identify with this post. I’m in an interracial marriage and I find that my husband and I feel the same way about our respective demographics (he’s Taiwanese American). When we’re out in public we point out other couples both monoracial and interracial that have either black women or asian men in them (we try to be a bit discreet, not literally pointing at them). We’ve never seen a couple like us in person. I am indeed a “men who really love black women” stan. I think I g0 a little too far sometimes like when I consider seeing a DeNiro movie in part because of his preference for black women (seems like a bit of a fetish, actually…Bill Maher, too). It really is about feeling that your value as a romantic prospect is higher than Monopoly money. At the same time, I get the biggest warm fuzzy when I see monoracial black couples with cute kids.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 8:42 am ¶

4. Logan wrote:

   Going off my own experiences:

   Here in China, it is very common that a foreigner who is a male will have a Chinese girlfriend, including a few of my fellow teachers here who have Chinese wives. I’ve seen in the 4 months I’ve been here thus far one time where there was a white female with a Chinese male. From other experiences I’ve had (discussions with a female coworker who lived in Korea for a couple years, reading I’ve done on Japan post-WW2), it seems this is the same across much of Asia, with a much, much higher rate of white males or foreign males with Asian women, than white or foreign females with Asian men.

   Some of this I would attribute to racial hierarchy, with gender trumping race. It is much easier for a white male (and in general, in Asia or America, men initiate relationships or are the ones to make the first move) to approach a female of color than a white female to approach a male of color. Additionally, I think there’s an unconscious stigma out there that a white man could marry someone of color and not lose his “status”, while a white female with a Male of Color marries down the ladder, so to speak.

   Personally, however, I never fully bought into it, thinking about it. Especially here in Asia, many of the guys I know here who pursue interracial relationships are mostly just thinking with their other head, and have very base “Is she hot? If yes, I wanna fuck her.” mentality. These guys don’t represent all men or myself in any respect, but there is a similar thought process among many guys, where physical attraction is a primary characteristic which can override other flaws. With women, and admittedly I don’t really understand the thought process myself, there just seems to be much more in the thought process of approaching a guy. Being over here more and more, it just seems to me that men have a much simpler checklist for what they see in a potential relationship, which in general trumps race, compared to females.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 8:50 am ¶

5. Jess wrote:

   @Logan–

   Maybe what you are seeing is a bit of self-selection too.

   That is, who are the white males (or foreign males, strictly speaking) who are likely to be working in Asia in the first place? People who skew to the young, professional and relatively wealthy. That is, lots of investment bankers, journalists and analysts, some engineers. Not many janitors or fry cooks.

   That means the mentality among those guys is going to be different than a married dude who is 50.

   I was on of those expats for a while, and believe me, the issue for me was that i was a) without friends b) lonely and c) feeling like I could do whatever the hell because i had no responsibility other than my job. (I wasn’t in Asia, BTW, but the principle still applies I think).

   I get the status thing tho, which brings us to an earlier comment about going or lighter women (I’m looking at you Clarence Thomas).

   It’s interesting that white men with a woman who isn’t white is sort of acceptable (if grudgingly so) whereas a black man with a white woman isn’t.

   In pop culture, I think about Will Smith. Now, I can’t think of a more “safe” black man than Will. No gangsta stuff, no real off-screen problems– he’s about as acceptable to white America as you can get.

   And yet, in I am Legend the woman in the film isn’t white (I think she was supposed to be Latina). And in almost every film his love interest has to be at least non-white. In <iMen in Black I don’t recall Will and the white pathologist he tries to get it on with ever kissing, for instance.

   The “racial purity” rule seems to be pretty strong in movies, by the way — I noticed it even as far back as Dances With Wolves (Which should probably be called Lawrence of South Dakota cf. Ward Churchill) where Kevin Costner’s cavalryman finds a woman of the Sioux who is of course, a captured white woman.

   There are better examples, too, of white men with PoC women and never the reverse, it seems — except when there is a point to be made, I recall one film about a black soldier who was involved with a white woman and is about to be wrongly executed for rape (anyone recall it?).

   You can also see it on news programs, by the way — for a long time the pairing of morning/evening anchors was almost always white guy/PoC woman or PoC Man/PoC woman but very rarely PoC Man/White Woman until relatively recently.

   I think that feeds into what Barrett is talking about, which in turn feeds into beauty standards and all that jazz in a nice, dysfunctional little circle of awfulness.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 9:51 am ¶

6. Jules wrote:

   @Jess

   The movie I believe you’re talking about is here:

   http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112305/

   I saw this when I was in my early teen years and thought it was a unique love affair until about the last 20-30 minutes when a huge wtf wall hit me in the face. I couldn’t abstract it all at the age of, say, 11. But I know something was wrong. Since many movies featuring adulterers don’t really end up with the non-married person being hung.

   I’ve also noticed mainstream Hollywood’s lack of interracial relationships. If yoyu want to be a success you cant really cross the line. Look at Denzel, Will Smith, Jamie Foxx, etc. Their on screen romances are almost always with someone latina or very light-skinned. Their was a great article in GQ about Hollywood’s lack of desire to make movies featuring interracial couples and the substitution of someone of a lighter race for the white person.

   I do remember it making the very true point that in Hitch, Amber Valetta would NEVER go for Kevin James and that both she and Eva Mendes would be chasing Will Smith instead

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 10:37 am ¶

7. aimerrouge wrote:

   Since I’m responding so early, I hope people, especially Black women respond to my question. I realize I don’t write as well as some of you who post here but please indulge me and answer. If you think I need to expound, please let me know. Now, on to my question.

   Michelle Obama to my eye is not “dark.” What I mean is when I look a pictures of Michelle and compare her coloring (not the race of her parents) to for example, Halle Berry, they are virtually the same “color.” Why is Halle relegated to “light skin” but Michelle considerd “dark”? Is the issue Halle’s white mother? Is this really about having 2 Black parents? And if so, if Halle (again, for example) is not authentically Black, why is Obama authentically Black? He has a biological white parent as well.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 10:40 am ¶

8. Myles wrote:

   I really like this piece.

   The end reminded me of what I learned in social psych; people think that they are awesome, and they look for things that support this belief.

   So it makes sense that the women in your family would support Obama and be fond of him for being married to a darker skinned woman because it basically supports their own belief that they and people who look like them are awesome.

   The fact that the support comes from someone who is considered to be powerful/desirable makes the confirmation of their worth (awesomeness) probably even better.

   That’s why some people (at least people I have been around) seem less threated or upset when they see a homeless interracial BM/WW couple because the man is of so low status his opinion doesn’t really hold much sway.

   I’ve always wondered about why I would hear so many Black women bring up Obama having a darker skinned wife like it directly reflected on them.

   On some level, at least to them, it does.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 10:41 am ¶

9. DivergentDana wrote:

   “And yet, in I am Legend the woman in the film isn’t white (I think she was supposed to be Latina). And in almost every film his love interest has to be at least non-white. In <iMen in Black I don’t recall Will and the white pathologist he tries to get it on with ever kissing, for instance.”

   Exactly… I don’t think Obama would have been as popular with some whites either, if he was in a white/black IR relationship — even though it would be hypocritical, based on his actual lineage — that’s one of the things that the “safe” black man just doesn’t do. There’s also the perception within the black community that a black woman has to take whoever she can get, so there’s “at least she has a man” *golf clap* no matter what race he is sentiments out there, sometimes accompanied with feelings of pity from monoracially-coupled black women, because they may think that she “had” to settle for a non-black man –OTOH, I’ve also noticed that among some black women, there’s a tendency to “talk up” men who have shown some affinity for black women, because it’s deemed a rare and precious trait. Black men are generally seen as posessing more agency, because they are socially able to approach women and they’re not totally excluded from desirable mate criteria based on their being physically black. I still struggle with feelings that black men “have it easier” on the dating front*, in part because some of them have outright told me that non-black women are all in all, more receptive to a black mate than non-black men.

   *Of course, I consciously know that it’s not that simple, and nowhere near as easy as it is for a white guy to date non-white women.

   Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 10:42 am ¶

10. Kata wrote:

    Logan,

    I don’t agree with you. In Japan, many Japanese men are very interested in dating foreign women but are scared to approach them. One Japanese guy actually told me that a white girl would be a trophy girlfriend. A lot of Japanese guys think that foreign women just don’t find them attractive so they are scared to talk to them. I don’t think it has anything to do with it being harder for a white woman to approach a man of color. At least in the case of Japanese men, they are more timid with foreigners and thus harder to approach maybe. If you go to Latin America, you’ll see plenty of white women with men of color and less white men with women of color. In Latin America, white women are considered “easy” whereas white men are considered more reserved.

    Also, I don’t think many societies would consider marrying an Asian as marrying “down the ladder.” I think it has to do more with social class and status than race a lot of times. Also, it probably depends on which part of Asia, with East Asia being superior to Southeast Asia in some people’s eyes. I certainly don’t think Asian parents would applaud their Asian child for marrying a white person because it would be marrying “up the ladder.” Most Asian parents probably prefer their children to marry within the race… at least that is the case in Korea and Japan. My friend in Japan told me that her mom said it’s okay if she marries a foreigner “as long as he is not black.” I am half-Japanese by the way.

    Sorry this is a bit off the topic of the post, which I enjoyed. I noticed that in Bahia, Brazil, dark-skinned black woman are seen as the beauty ideal. I was involved in traditional Afro-Brazilian arts and my teachers were very vocal about their appreciation of black beauty.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 10:47 am ¶

11. A.D. Nix wrote:

    I think it has everything to do with the dynamic between subjects deemed desirable by dominant culture (white men and women, for example) and those considered undesirable (black women and Asian men, for example). When it looks like the underdog has won a round (”Someone, anyone! actually wants to have a relationship with a black woman? Whaaaaaat?”) the inclination may be to quietly celebrate the undermining of that dynamic and the challenge to the hierarchies of desirability. I know I do.

    The Ever-Wanted White Woman and Handsome Black Buck pairing may seem to confirm expectations about the desirability of both subjects. Certainly no cause for condemnation but maybe less cause for celebration?

    Full disclosure: I am a black woman who has not dated a black man since high school. And he was technically a boy. This is not for lack of trying. But my world within NYC is close to lily white now (I should say, lily European – I’m dating my first American in a decade). It’s ‘diverse’ but definitely dominated by The Whites. And that’s who tries to date my chocolate ass. But it certainly wasn’t lily white when I was at university (also in NYC). So . . . yeah. Not sure what that means.

    * I messed up that last post . . .

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:10 am ¶

12. Eric Daniels wrote:

    After reading the other posts and what Ryan said here is my two cents on Barack ’s marriage to Michelle a dark-skinned (your words folks) I think President Obama benefitted by not being raised in the mainland of the U.S.A. and having to interact with African- American culture and the negative pathologies about our culture from dark-skin -light sking conflicts and until he was an adult. And being raised a global citizen and cultural outsider to an extent allowed him to develop a healthy sense of Blackness so when he meet Michelle he just looked at her as just another fine, smart sista who was interested like himself in uplifting the African- American community.African- Americans have serious issues from nearly 400 years of racism that will never heal.

    Now I am going to negative because I am a cynic when it comes to blantant hypocritical posturing by human beings.

    ” do some Black women hold an interracial relationship double standard?

    Most Black women who I am close with approve of, and even cheer on, a Black female/White male interracial relationship”

    Yes they do Ryan and by reading that post and your article you wrote your relatives and I suspect your friends do also. Many of my BF friends (yes I do have some Black Female friends) approve of these pairings and melt with joy when they see these parings with a “you go girl” and get dat whiteboy” or any other IR pairing that BW indulge in but will act with outrage if a successful BM marries across racial lines or has a light-skinned Black Wife.

    “So maybe we do hold a seemingly illogical but deeply personal double standard—one rooted in experiences that go back decades. From hearing about my grandmother’s experiences as a dark-skinned Black woman in the 30’s and 40’s to my aunt’s to my cousin’s to mine, I’ve grown an intense fondness for any man who appreciates a brown-skinned lady…

    …and I’m half-White. Go figure.”

    No Ryan it speaks to a double standard that is so engrained that nobody will challenge it without being labelled as divisive. I have come to the conclusion that dark-skinned BW are playing the “mule of the world” and it’s getting tiring because going back to Slavery and until Loving v. Virginia most IR marriages were to dark-skinned BW because if a Black Man of whatever shade consorted or married a WM in particular they were social outcasts or risked their lives or jail time everywhere particularly in the South.

    So yes there is a double standard, giving a dap to brothas like Denzel, Sammuel L and Obama who marries a dark-skinned BW when Black Men do that everyday is really patheic and sickening. I figure if a Black Singer or celebrity or althlete were married to a white woman and used her in his videos like Robin Thicke does with Paula Patton or gives his White Wife a kiss while being interviewed after a championship there would be outrage and quess from whom BW and WM whom many just got weak in the knees when Thicke did the exact same thing.

    There are double standards Ryan and that’s because we are Americans and choose to wear our own veils of hypocrisy.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:14 am ¶

13. CVT wrote:

    @ Logan – it definitely isn’t just in China where you’ll see many more white male/Asian female combinations than the other way around. Last I knew, it was 70% of Asian/white relationships were that particular combo.

    @ Jess – funny you mention Will Smith, because I kind of took the whole Hancock movie to have an anti-interracial relationships theme: every time the white woman was with the black man, they got attacked and terrible things happened? The black man had to move 3,000 miles away and let his love marry a white guy for everything to be okay? Riiiight.

    As far as Obama goes, I think it was just as huge that he has a full-on black family (wife, kids, etc.) and he got elected, as just him being black. The thought of a black family (especially the KIDS) in the White House gets me more teary-eyed than anything else.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:18 am ¶

14. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @aimerrouge: If we’re talking about pure color logic – color swatch logic, I would personally put Michelle in the middle somewhere. Browntown.

    But this ‘ish defies logic. When ‘So Light!’ is the ideal, everything else slides into the ‘Oh, Not Light, So It’s Dark’ zone with it’s own subsets ‘Oh Crap – Really Dark’ and ‘Poor Unfortunate Midnight.’

    I hate talking about ’skin tone’ (urgh) but I would not call Halle Berry and Michelle Obama’s coloring the same. But I’d also put Halle Berry closer to Browntown than Lightsylvannia so . . . all subject, i guess.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:20 am ¶

15. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @A.D. Nix: ‘Subjective”, not ’subject’, dummy.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:21 am ¶

16. CVT wrote:

    @ Kata -
    I agree with you about Asian family’s opinions on interracial relationships. My Chinese grandmother was definitely not excited about my mom marrying “up the ladder” to a white guy.

    As for your mentioning of how different interracial combinations work out depending on the races involved, I just wrote a piece with a similar theme:

    http://choptensils.blogspot.com/2009/01/on-racial-misogyny.html

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:23 am ¶

17. Tiffany wrote:

    Yes BW do hold a double standard when it comes to inter-racial dating.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:24 am ¶

18. gatamala wrote:

    I like this post, however one nitpick:

    What we did to each other is ‘our shame’.

    Not did…do. This happens today, everyday. I experience it in social settings (I live in DC btw). I watch who the boys from the local school go after. It’s the same as when I was in middle and high school (in NC). To pretend that it happenED is tantamount to saying we are in a post-colorist society.

    co-sign Celeste.

    Div~yes, can we please stop pretending that black women are the only ones obsessed with bm/ww? Last time I checked, we fought those laws, we didn’t make them. I’ve had white women mad dog me for hanging out with a co-worker!!!!

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 11:56 am ¶

19. Monie wrote:

    The only problem I have with interracial dating is when people promote a certain kind of pairing as being the best.

    There are all sorts of blogs/sites promoting interracial relationships between Black women and White men. Usually these sites trash Black men as they portray White men as being wonderful.

    Unfortunately many of these blogs rely on hatred/ resentment of a particular race to bolster their argument for interracial dating; although if you happen to point that out to these bloggers and their fellow cult members you’ll be viciously attacked. lol

    Another problem I see is ‘fetishizing’ a particular group of people. I think this is probably done most often of late to Asian women. But there are people out there ‘fetishizing’ just about every group. That’s just so weird.

    Is fetishizing a word? lol

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:07 pm ¶

20. dalia wrote:

    my friends and i talked about this the whole time the debates were going on… that obama was just a little more favoured, a little more loved because his wife was a dark-skinned black woman.

    my boyfriend, who is white (irony much?) didn’t understand it at all. “what difference does it make, she’s still black?” he would ask…

    i explained to him that it’s for the same reason men like denzel washington (while not my favourite actor) score a few “points” in my book. for little black children, the message has always been that men in power married light or white, and the successful, smart, attractive darker sisters were left in the shadows.

    dark was okay for evening wear, not your choice in a mate.

    obama’s candidacy and win were spectacular not only because he’s a black man now slated to run the most powerful nation in the world, but because he’s doing so with a dark-skinned black woman by his side. it’s a powerful message for so many reasons.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:11 pm ¶

21. Kenny wrote:

    There is no question that some women of color have an illogical double standard when it comes to inter racial dating. I have even been around some who feel no sympathy for the Black males who have been beaten or killed for being with White women! Even though they know the reverse does not happen. As far as Holywood goes , yes they are a part of the problem for sure. I remember seeing Halle Berry and Sheryl Lee Ralph actually complaining to Bill Maher on his old show about not being considered right away for roles opposite Tom Cruise, I was so embarassed. When I saw the preview for a movie starring Jamie Foxx and Jennifer Garner I remember telling someone “if you think they will be a couple in that you are not very observant”.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:14 pm ¶

22. Rchoudh wrote:

    @ Jess

    Speaking of Will Smith I remember an interesting article about how he is the only action hero who is “safest” to watch in terms of being in movies with almost no sex scenes and so forth. Also the article mentioned that besides not ever having any white love interests, in Hancock where he was supposed to have that, the storyline made it dangerous for him to be with her. Thus implying that a white woman’s love is lethal for black men…

    I find this post quite interesting because I also heard some black women say that if Obama ever cheated it had better not be with a white woman; that sort of indiscretion would make them lose all faith in him as the ideal black man. Speaking of politicians, it’s been speculated that a major reason why Bobby Jindal won the Lousiana governorship was because, aside from the religious conversion, his wife was a Indian American and not white which wouldn’t have gone over too well with the predominantly conservative white constituency.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:18 pm ¶

23. dalia wrote:

    and, to aimerrouge:

    compared to halle berry (who is positively caramel-coloured), michelle obama is certainly dark-skinnned. next to alek wek, probably not, but she (michelle) is of a darker hue, and to every woman who has ever been passed over or disregarded because she was the “wrong shade” of black, these things really matter.

    if you look at the significant others/spouses of famous black men such as blair underwood, forrest whittaker, will smith, taye diggs, derke luke, boris kodjoe, eddie murphy, michael strahan, ben harper, lenny kravitz, john legend… their choices have been/are lighter. i’m not saying this is wrong, but it sends a message.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:18 pm ¶

24. Eathan wrote:

    Interesting post…I’ll have to think about that concept.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:22 pm ¶

25. NSUKing2005 wrote:

    I really, really like this post. And the double standard definitely rings true; however, even as a black male, I understand it completely. Throughout history, black women have probably been at the lowest part of the proverbial totem pole; and the only time black women would seem to be desired by men (white AND black) is for sexual purposes, for their more curvaceous figures; and that continues to this day. Meanwhile, throughout history, even in slavery days, you have always heard of and seen white women being genuinely attracted to white men; and it became very acceptable over time…or at least much more acceptable than white men/black women. Even at my school, you see a LOT of black guys dating and hooking up with women, and you hardly see them with black women. So it’s nice to men who genuinely are attracted to black women all-around, beyond sexually.

    I think it’s the reverse thing with Asian men and women. Asian women are highly sought-after by a lot of different men (although it would probably be the more for sexual purposes like black women, I really don’t know for sure); meanwhile, Asian men are low on the totem pole.

    And you see a lot of it in the media; how many times do you see Asian men in TV shows and movies get the girl? How many times do you see Black women being the object of affection (and not just a fetish)?

    And technically, Obama/Michelle IS an interracial relationship, since Obama is biracial himself. To go slightly off-topic, why is it that people are so quick to label someone interracial, who is part-black, as being fully black? In this case, do people wanna refer to Obama solely as African-American given the whole dream of the “First Black President”? I know people of mixed race always tend to be categorized as black, so I guess that’s where it comes from. But is it really fair to consider Obama solely black? Especially when he was raised by his white grandparents?

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:28 pm ¶

26. Renee wrote:

    I am black woman in an inter racial relationship and I truly believe that part of our love for Obama is marriage to Michelle. For so long black womanhood has been neglected and attacked. We were always the ugly girl at the party. Since beauty is considered part of a womans power this can be highly destructive to our sense of self-esteem. If you are also dark skinned, or fat it can be an even more traumatic experience. I love anyone that can truly appreciate the beauty that is a black woman. It is not a common thing. More time is spent running us down and telling us what is wrong with us than truly appreciating us for the wonder that we are.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:29 pm ¶

27. thenderson wrote:

    aimerrouge, I also don’t consider Michelle Obama to be darkskinned. imo, for the women who say they like Obama because he married a “dark skinned” black woman, it is more about the fact that she is clearly a black woman; she doesn’t have racially ambiguous looks, she has obvious “black” features (full lips, broad nose).

    I also don’t consider Halle Berry to be light skinned either; i’m about the same color as she is and I have never considered myself light. I think some people consider her light because 1.) her white mother and 2.) they feel she has more “white” facial features (thinner lips). As far as people being authentically black, to me there is no such thing. If a person considers themselves black, then that is how i think of them; regardless of the race of their parents. If a person considers themselves biracial then that is how I think of them.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 12:37 pm ¶

28. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Michelle Obama to my eye is not “dark.” What I mean is when I look a pictures of Michelle and compare her coloring (not the race of her parents) to for example, Halle Berry, they are virtually the same “color.” ”

    I don’t think so… and while Mrs. Obama isn’t the same shade as, say, Naomi Campbell, she’s darker than the black “midpoint”, which is around/percieved as being around….Meagan Good’s color, and most importantly, darker than Mr. Obama. This post is useless without pics.

    Meagan Good: http://img.actressarchives.com/images2/meagan/MeaganGood12_Grant_10900055.jpg

    Michelle Obama: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebaird/2805195898/

    Halle Berry: http://www.thesunblog.com/frosting/Berry_Halle66736470_400.jpg

    To avoid (too much) Photoshop confusion, I chose candids, but the flash of the lighting that professional candid photographers usually use probably makes all of these women look lighter than they would look in person.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 1:06 pm ¶

29. Lola wrote:

    I’m on the lighter end of the black color spectrum but I am grateful that Obama is married to a beautiful brown woman. It tells the world that women like my grandmother, cousins, and sisters, are beautiful and worth while, they are a prize. I want people to know that African features are beautiful.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 1:15 pm ¶

30. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Great post. Got me thinking. I agree with “we love men who love black women” but let me go deeper (for me anyway). I’m in an IR myself. I still feel pride when I see black couples. I am happy for any sister that has found someone to love and care for her be they white, black, asian, hispanic. We are not pretending to be any mules of the world. It is an undisputable fact that black women get a raw deal. But I don’t advocate being a victim. There are days when I feel like the world finds me so worthless, but I keep it moving because I know that I am worthy, I know society knows and sees I’m worthy, they just don’t want to see me shine. Any man that can be there for me regardless of race is a keeper.

    If a brother has found happiness with a woman of another race, good! Love sees no color. I have two biracial sons, I know they will have girls of all races trying to date them, including white girls and I am okay with that…as long as they love where they came from.

    Black men who date ir while debasing black women use white women to get back at white men or black women. It’s a big inferiority complex satiated by a temper tantrum. That’s what that is. But if a brother is looking for love and just loves women who love him (regardless of race) then he’s a-ok!

    Also good point about some sisters feeling more accepted by white men. I think the black community hasn’t allowed for much deviation from the norm (think of whites at the beginningof rock and roll and its popular culture in the 50s). My mom didn’t like that I liked metal at 10. She thought of it as satanic lol. My white guy friends didn’t and they accepted me from jump, even while the african american kids were making my life a living hell. They did not seem interested that my hair was not straight yet, they did not care that my clothes were not cross colours. I’m still amazed after all these years and a tad confused.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 1:30 pm ¶

31. Squidfly wrote:

    Same old problem, skin privilege. Whose dark and whose light, keep comparing people.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 1:32 pm ¶

32. A.D. Nix wrote:

    @ Squidfly: Yeah, i have to say . . . and this may be because I’ve lived thousands of miles away from from family and have little entrenched, day-to-day discourse with black people who aren’t “like me” in their ‘progressive’ relationship with color-y things (oh, and also the aforementioned surrounded by non-blacks issue) – I haven’t thought about light, dark, caramel, coco-whatever in quite a while.

    For years, something I heard all of the time. Now? Almost not at all. Almost.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 2:09 pm ¶

33. DivergentDana wrote:

    “But is it really fair to consider Obama solely black? Especially when he was raised by his white grandparents?”

    Well, he identifies as a black man…

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 2:20 pm ¶

34. Celeste wrote:

    @ DD: ditto. Everyone has a right to self-identify although I think he identifies and black and biracial.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 2:49 pm ¶

35. Lisa J wrote:

    Intereting post. I usually read all the comments carefully before I post but I just skimmed this time so forgive me if I repeat or step on anyone’s toes. I think that Ryan’s conclusion is true, I think there is a bit of a double standard. I personally as a black woman, don’t mind BM/WF relationships much and when I see such couples if I catch their eyes, I try to smile, although some will automatically avoid me, probably expecting the evil eye. I do have a another black female friend who HATES to see black men with white women and venom comes out of her mouth when even utters that phrase, but she has dated white guys and hispanic guys too. I personally do wonder a little in the back of my mind, “does this brother like black women too or is this white woman just Ms. Right or Ms. Right-for-now, or does he not like black women?” Then I try to remind myself it is none of my business anyway so why should I care.

    I also recall seeing an episode of Oprah sometime in the late 80’s or early 90’s about interracial couples/dating and on the section with the men, there were several black men who dated just white women and one white man who only dated black women. The black women in that audience went up one-side and down the other of each and everyone of those black men, I mean they excoriated those brothers, but they loved that white man to death. He was very handsome and seemed suave and cool and he made the black guys seem nerdy. It was interesting.

    I think that as some others have said, black women really feel like we are on the low-women on the totem pole when it comes to who men of all races find attractive. So I think we get excited when we see men outside of our race who find us attractive, especially white men who in some ways are “supposed” to be at the top of the attractiveness totem pole. You can also argue though that black men are also in a way on the top of the totem pole, or pose a serious fight for who is on top, which is a threat to male whiteness in a way, which is why there has historically been so much of a stronger reaction in the larger society to black men being with white women and why it was (and occasionally still is) more dangerous for a black man to be with a white woman. I think that even though these days black women often react more strongly to black male white female relationships, it is highly unlikely they will kill or even beat up the black man (hard for women anyway) or the white woman, whereas in the past and sometimes now, white men used to, and sometimes still will, kill or beat the black man within an inch of their lives and maybe even knock the white woman around. So I guess the negative reaction of black women, though upsetting, is much more benign. It is a strange dynamic.

    Back to black women and white men though, back in slavery times, and even when many black women worked as housekeepers in white households, it was very easy for white men to access black women sexually but they seldom would or could enter into a truly romantic loving open relationship with them, so the fact that they can now and sometimes chose to, is looked upon by black women with excitement. Maybe it is hypocracy, but I think in a way it is more of a self-esteeem issue for black woman to get a boost by seeing other men like us and feel it as a put-down or a kick in the teeth when “our” men don’t seem to like us. ALso, in my experience, except when I was in the UK, I’ve seen many more black male white female pairings than black female white male pairings. Maybe if the numbers even out more some of this “hypocracy” or double standard might die off a bit.

    BTW, I don’t see Michelle as dark skinned, she is not light but not dark either, she is a medium or brown skin tone IMHO. Yes she is darker than Barack. I think if he had a white wife a whole lot of black women and white men would have been very unhappy with him and he probably would not be president today.

    Sorry for the long rant, man I’ve been chatty on this site this week.

    Oh and @aimerrouge, I think your writing is just fine and you expressed yourself very well.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 2:54 pm ¶

36. Paz wrote:

    I think another great thing about the Obamas is that they are actually affectionate towards each other! They get compared a lot to the Kennedys, but Barack and Michelle seem much more vivacious than John F and Jackie (to be fair, I’ve seen much more footage of the former, though).

    That’s funny the talk about Will Smith. I was excited when Hitch came out b/c finally a rom-com with two POC marketed for a mainstream audience. Although Will Smith is cast with a black wife/girlfriend in other films, it’s not the focus of the movie; he’s too busy saving the world from disaster. In Hitch, he works to help a white man get a white girl, but then wait, the POC has desires too, and he falls in love with another POC.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 3:14 pm ¶

37. jetessence wrote:

    One of the reasons I like Obama is not just because his wife is a black woman. I like Obama because of the QUALITY of the woman he married.

    Michelle can carry her own, and I was (and still am) impressed that Obama married someone who seems to be his equal (and at one point his superior), not just some trophy wife. THAT said more to me about Obama’s character than anything else.

    He is not afraid of a successful and intelligent woman. Michelle being black, for me, was the just icing on the cake.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 3:43 pm ¶

38. jaye wrote:

    I wouldn’t call Michelle dark skinned, but she is darkER-skinned than Barack…during a time when you usually see men with women lighter skinned than them.
    And I don’t think the point is that, wow, isn’t Barack such a great guy to take pity on poor darker-skinned Michelle and marry her…like it’s so hard to be in a relationship with her and her long legs and brilliant mind…it’s more like, he found someone he fell in love with and he married her, rather than being a coward and finding the trophy-lighter skinned wife that everyone else seems to need to boost up their insecure egos. And that would have been socially acceptable, he could have been president with a wife who was a lighter-skinned black woman. But instead, he found the person he loves, and he didn’t allow societal pressures and expectations to sway him from his relationship with her. You could compare that to the fact that she was his boss, and realize that he doesn’t have a problem with women in positions of authority either, and also see that as a reflection of his strength of character. That she was his boss didn’t make her unattractive, but most men are scared off by something like that, and like to demean women that hold authority over them…and Barack didn’t. I personally think that says something about who he is.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 3:45 pm ¶

39. Eva wrote:

    I am a light skinned black woman and I am very happy that Obama married a woman who some would consider dark skinned.

    When Michelle Obama was on The View, Whoopi Goldberg told her how on TV, too often brown skinned black women are often shown to be loud, with no teeth and inarticulate, and Whoopi was so happy to see an intelligent brown skinned woman on TV.

    A few years ago, I saw a trailer for the movie “Enchanted.” I do not remember what the movie was about, but in the trailer there was a very stereotypical cartoonish black woman. She was loud, overweight, unfeminine and had super strength, since she threw a grown man over her shoulder. I was really shocked. I saw this in the Magic Johnson theater in Harlem and there was just this collective groan that went up.

    That is why it’s so important for America to see a woman like Michelle Obama, because if enough small children grow up with her as First Lady, maybe stupid stereotypes like that will be put out to pasture.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 4:03 pm ¶

40. DivergentDana wrote:

    “And I don’t think the point is that, wow, isn’t Barack such a great guy to take pity on poor darker-skinned Michelle and marry her…like it’s so hard to be in a relationship with her and her long legs and brilliant mind…it’s more like, he found someone he fell in love with and he married her, rather than being a coward and finding the trophy-lighter skinned wife that everyone else seems to need to boost up their insecure egos”

    I can say that my mother respects the pres-elect for marrying a woman who was in many respects his equal instead of a stereotypical trophy that was what she would consider to be more physically attractive, even when the option was there. The sentiment isn’t explicitly racialized, but the idea of a successful black man’s wife is usually the black analog of the busty Nordic-featured blonde — a fine-featured, thin black woman with relatively fair skin and curly hair.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 4:06 pm ¶

41. L. wrote:

    I can easily see this slipping into a discussion about how the double-standard is a “black woman” thing without discussing that there exists a double-standard by black men as well.

    Personally, I think for both sides it stems from some sense of betrayal. As if, at the very least, your own “kind” should want you if no one else does.

    Also, in some of the comments I’m seeing people talk about the lack of IR relationships in movies, and then go on to mention IR relationships in movies between POC. Even if its between two POC, if they are from different races, it’s still an IR relationship. I’d hate to think that we are equating IR relationships with POC/white couplings, and negating the IR aspect of those with POC partners.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 4:20 pm ¶

42. MrsRony wrote:

    As an AA woman married to a white man with a biracial son, I have been aware of the double standard and simply embrace it. I cant explain or rationalize it or change it. It irritates my son and hubby to no end (especially when said son dates a white girl) but there it is.

    I see Michelle and them precious chocolate baby girls and my heart sighs because there is nothing negative or ugly about them and maybe by extension me. There is hope that one day we as black women and girls can all be seen that way.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 4:39 pm ¶

43. Oona wrote:

    I will admit that part of the reason I love Barack is because his wife is Michelle.

    Growing up it was very apparent to me that dark skinned women, no matter how beautiful or intelligent were NOT the women one would see on the arm of an equally successful black male.

    When I was in school and had to read tons of business magazines and an article about a black CEO would come up, I always knew that the minute I turned the page and saw a photo of his family, that the wife would be white or maybe biracial and I was always right.

    It didn’t matter that I personally don’t care who in in an IR relationship, it was still hard to see that over and over again. As much as I tried not to, I still took it personally on some level.

    So yeah, I too love men who love black women.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 4:41 pm ¶

44. Paz wrote:

    jaye – did you say that Michelle was Barack Obama’s boss??? That is too awesome.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 4:52 pm ¶

45. Beth wrote:

    @Eric Daniels (#12)
    In most interracial marriages that have one African American partner, that partner is male. See here:
    http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=440
    There does certainly seem to be more ire directed at BM/WW IRs, but there are also more of them. In comparing notes with friends and our experiences, the BM/WW couples are more frequently met with anger, and the BW/WM couples are more frequently met with confusion and disbelief.

    For everyone referring to film & TV, I think that part of the reason that BW/WM relationships have been hyped by the media is that they are a teeny-tiny less rare than they used to be, in addition to other reasons given here by other commenters (ie, Black women as being considered the lowest on the “racial totem pole” of desirability, etc).

    Just my 2 cents. Rachel–if you’re reading, hope you don’t mind my linking you!

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 5:09 pm ¶

46. Lxy wrote:

    @Logan, Jess, Kata

    Regarding the White/Asian interracial relationship dynamics in Asia, you ever heard of Orientalism–the White racist and sexist worldview that the West and America in particular project onto “The Orient”?

    In this neo-colonial value system, the
    Western world is coded as masculine, whereas Asia is coded as feminine. This is where the West’s instinctive hypersexualization of Asian women and asexualization of Asian men ultimately comes from, as evidenced from McCrap culture like Hollywood movies to elitist fare like Madame Butterfly.

    Add to this other issues like the reality that Western and American expatriates today are globally speaking class and racial elites not unlike, say, their British imperial predecessors and possess a sense of (White) entitlement and privilege to match–even in things like sexuality.

    Those are all some of the social factors that powerfully impact the “personal” preference of relationships.

    Hell, there was even a comic strip punking the superior mentality that not a few White male expatriates have in Japan, particularly that class known as foreign teachers of English.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma_Man

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 5:20 pm ¶

47. ty wrote:

    I guess i am confused about why anyone fantasized about white men when they are the ones that systematically put minorities down and propogate the stereotypes of unattractiveness through movies and television. I dont get it.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 5:29 pm ¶

48. octogalore wrote:

    I agree with Jaye that it’s not a problematic double standard. There is more of a sense of trophy with BM/WW going both ways, so those relationships receive more societal accomodation than BW/WM. Therefore, those who undertake the latter are taking more of a risk.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 5:40 pm ¶

49. TierList E wrote:

    I would like to say, for the black women family and friends I know, their IR reactions are actually consistent: The ones that are open to/have dated outside their race are not openly disapproving of black men dating out, and the black women who do disapprove are not interested, or thought they would be settling if they dated a non-black man.

    There’s also the context of the guy in question. If the black guy/IR couple is friendly and open to us (a posse of black women in college days), then we had no problems, but there were those who scorned our presence on sight, and we found that a lot more suspicious.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 5:50 pm ¶

50. phoenix wrote:

    @ Seattle Slim
    I agree with you on everything. especially about deviating from the norm. I’ve had to deal with that my whole life. I’m in college right now and I am happier than I have ever been because I don’t have to worry about people giving me grief because I love rock music.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 6:43 pm ¶

51. Kristen wrote:

    “I guess we just love men who really love Black women.”

    Is no one else disturbed by the idea that in this context we are allowing the value of Black women to be determined by the acceptance or rejection of men.

    I understand that the value has been and still is set by bs standards, but to embrace that idea?

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 6:48 pm ¶

52. Kaonashi wrote:

    One of the reasons I like Obama is not just because his wife is a black woman. I like Obama because of the QUALITY of the woman he married.

    Michelle can carry her own, and I was (and still am) impressed that Obama married someone who seems to be his equal (and at one point his superior), not just some trophy wife. THAT said more to me about Obama’s character than anything else.

    He is not afraid of a successful and intelligent woman. Michelle being black, for me, was the just icing on the cake.

    My thoughts exactly. The most awesome thing about the Obamas is that it’s obvious that they work together as a team. She is at his side…not nipping at his heels.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 6:55 pm ¶

53. Restructure! wrote:

    Because of stereotypes, black people are considered masculine, and Asian people are considered feminine. Thus, people who don’t question stereotypes consider a black woman as an inferior woman, and an Asian man as an inferior man.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 7:04 pm ¶

54. kerrita k wrote:

    is it unreasonable to be validated on a large scale? i must say that ryan’s 2x standard is one i support. i’ve dated men of all races and still cheer when powerful black men choose someone who looks like me! i alternatively describe myself to my students as unambiguously black, african-american and brown – each with subltey different social meanings and positions.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 7:15 pm ¶

55. David Cone wrote:

    I don’t think Michelle Obama is dark at all. She’s right in-between. I’ll avoid the normal association of her complexion with food.

    I live in the DC Metro area, and in HS, as guy, if you could date a “red bone” or a gal that was “high yellow” or “clear” and she had long hair down her back, you were considered the man. I look back on those days and then I see my brown-skinned (browner than Michelle Obama by the way,) and even she marvels at how we ended up together just based on the complexion angle.

    Then I look at her brothers, my brothers-in-law. And then I have to laugh. Both of them are brown-skinned and one married a white lady and the other married a very fair-skinned sister. Weird, huh?

    One thing, as a man, that my wife has learned about me is that complexion isn’t what I’m all about. I like women, period. Now, like many men, I have preferences about body type, sure. But hair quality? Facial features? As I got older, I never really looked at that as much as I did as a teenybopper. My wife knows I’m a sucker for women with her body type (voluptuous not fat.) When we first started dating and she’d see my female friends in designer jeans, she used to say “I’m too big to wear those Sevens/Citizens for Humanity.” My response was “Honey, I’ve seen heavier women than you in designer jeans, let’s take a look.” Went to a website, converted her jeans size to Euro and she not only could fit them, they looked great and she felt great IN them. She couldn’t believe it. Even after she had our son, there were still sizes that she could fit into very comfortably.

    I’m not Alan Alda. I can be a pig like many guys that have some swine up in ‘em. But part of being a man isn’t just trying to jam your love interest into a beauty box. It’s seeing the beauty that she’s got outside of the make-up, the jeans, the hair, and all of that. Black women, IMHO, some of us black men just don’t do enough for them on the spiritual level. I tell my wife she’s beautiful all the time. (She is.) She thinks I’m crazy. What she does for me and our family is what makes her beautiful. It’s her will. It’s her spirit. I support her dreams and goals and she supports mine. If that means moving to Chicago to help my career, she’s done that. If that means making a sacrifice of our budget for private school for our son, we make that decision together and evaluate it constantly.

    Just hearing Michelle Obama speak about Barack is something that all black women AND men should take heed of. They have a mission (family, career, life, etc.) and both of them have their role to play in the public eye. The key for them is that they are partners on and off the political playing field. And it radiates from them when they’re together. And the picture of the Obamas that leads this piece is SO sensuous. Not sexual. But it just says “love” to me. We see you, Barack. We see you.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 7:18 pm ¶

56. Rissa wrote:

    Eva, #39 – Your thoughts on the movie Enchanted are extremely similar to mine; I remember seeing the trailer with the super-strong, loud, overweight, nappy-headed, obnoxious black woman getting off the bus and yelling, “WHAT THE HELL?” or some such at the White man on top of her bus (oh yes, she’s a bus driver, too), and thinking, “Well! That’s a movie I will NOT be seeing.” And I haven’t because I am sick and tired of it. And instead of just protesting with my words, I will do so with my actions and my dollars. I don’t think it made a difference for this particular movie because everyone that saw it loved it soooo much, but I do not give a damn. I refuse to participate in that crap.

    As for Obama, someone else mentioned this: I admire him not only because he wasn’t afraid to buck societal conventions and align himself with what might move along unquestioned, but because he married his equal. Michelle Obama is not just a Black woman. She transcends color, much in the same way her husband does. And that is not to take away anything from the fact that she is a brown-skinned female.

    She is powerful, a force of nature, appealing to the senses. She comes across as confident, unassuming, polite, warm, friendly, and sensible – all at the same time. I love her not only because she is, by chance, a Black woman but because she represents Black women in such a positive way. THIS is who we are. THIS is what we (all of us!) should aspire to be. I think it’s an amazing time to be alive, and to be an American citizen especially. For better or for worse, this is progress. This is change. This is hope.

    Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 9:04 pm ¶

57. Eric Daniels wrote:

    This is really childish on it’s face, we know there are double standards and it effects careers. life choices and that spreads to the family and children. Dark- Skinned Black Women get more attention because in the white media and it’s various organs who created the steotypes of the Dark- Skinned Mammy who either sexually loose (Grace Jones) or the motherly type like (Oprah and Maya Angelou) or the ugly dark- skinned girl like (Whoppi Goldberg Alex Wek) that both sides embraced but these women have married or dated across racial lines without much criticism from either mainstream society or the media.

    If anything Americans push Black Womenof all shades to date IR because of the so-called shortage “marrigable Black Men” and celebrates the educational & social achievements of BW, nobody bats an eye when Gabriel Autry became Halle’s “Baby Daddy” without career repecussions for Berry. I wish some of you people would admit that reality instead of playing victim of the Dark- Skinned Black Woman sitting alone without love and companionship along wih her P.H.D. when it is much more grey area in this debate.

    Just last Night last Florida won the National Title for the second time in 3 years and it’s because of it’s defensive cordinator Charlie Strong who has been waiting 10 years to become a head of what I call a “big 6″ SEC school. There were two “big 6″ openings this year at Tennensee and Auburn teams that if you recruit well you can win national championships every 2-3 years and these schools passed over Strong and Turner Gill who have won as assistant coaches a combined 6 college football championships between them won’t even hire these men because they are married to White Women not because they lack experience coaching at a bigtime school.

    Michelle is not a dark-skinned Black Woman, she is a highly accomplished person who from the looks of her high school and college pictures never had to worry about dates from BM or any other race because her parents gave her a strong sense of self , pride in her race and responsiblity to the black community and society in general. 95% of all Black Men would have known Michelle was a good catch and would have courted and gave her that respect because men know a woman who is truly a lady of strength and character not someone’s shade.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 12:06 am ¶

58. Nelly wrote:

    On Hitch, I read an interview with Will Smith where he said the studio refused to hire a Black woman as his love interest. The reasoning was that “Black movies don’t sell well overseas.” And, of course, two Black leads would relegate the movie to the urban, Black movie ghetto (at least in the minds of most non-Blacks). I was hopping mad when I read the interview. To me, Smith came across as helpless and blasé in response. But, I’m sure I was being too hard on him. He’s a big star, but I’m not sure how much he could have done. I don’t know if it would have been feasible for Smith to refuse to do the movie or call out the studio on their racism (my preferences!).

    Still, I can’t help seeing Hitch as a cynical “compromise”. The studio gets a Woman of Color who wouldn’t completely turn off Black women/people (in the way that having him pine for a blue-eyed blonde might). The studio also gets a Woman of Color who is palatable to non-Blacks (specifically Whites). Perhaps that’s the reasoning behind some of Will Smith’s onscreen pairings (where romance is key to the story). It’s not solely to keep him from the prized White women. Maybe it’s also about putting him with light-skinned (often Latina) Women of Color who won’t completely turn off Black and non-Black audiences. Then again, this reasoning would assume that Hollywood cares about Black moviegoers. They’ve disproven that, time and again.

    On a related note, I can’t think about Hitch without remembering this quote from Taye Diggs. I came across it a few weeks ago (long after I’d read Smith’s interview). I’m still trying to untangle it :

    “What [black women] were happy about was that [Mendes’ character in Hitch] wasn’t white; she was Latina,” Diggs explains when asked why Will Smith’s role in the film didn’t draw as much cultural ire as some of the choices he’s made on- and offscreen. “That’s what they were happy about, if we’re gonna be real. That’s how the scale goes. First off, if it’s a dark brother and the dark brother isn’t with a dark sister that causes issues. … After that, if you’re going to date outside the race, then they go down the list of how poorly other minorities have been treated after blacks. [So] after that, you have Latino. … Like, I’ve had people say that about my wife: ‘At least she looks Spanish.’ Like that makes it a little bit better. So that’s why people accepted it. If Will Smith had been with a lily-white woman, it would’ve been a completely different situation in the black community as far as females are concerned. I guarantee you that.”

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 1:07 am ¶

59. Tea wrote:

    Just a few statements in no particular order.
    Michelle is beautiful, to me she looks “medium” brown.

    Having read the article and all the responses, I understand what many of the ladies (and some men) are saying. However I think it’s cultural insanity (all cultures not one in particular). We talk about diversity, acceptance, but we persecute ourselves and each other in action and thought. Will we never learn to see beyond the color or shading of each others skin? I think we cannot teach a nation to look past skin colors until we teach ourselves as individuals to do so first. And that does require that we put down our personal sentiments (or anti-sentiments) and hypocrisy and learn to accept every person regardless of skin tones. Black women are just as beautiful as whites, asians, hispanics, indians… and vice versa. On very personal levels we have to rise above the past, our history, and be something more. Dare I say we need to be better than what the past would have the future, us, believe. Even if the past was just yesterday. Every one of us is BEAUTIFUL! Thank god we dont all look alike!

    Obama is bi-racial, I am annoyed that he is always termed “black”. He is bi-racial. Everyone wants to overlook he had a white parent too. “let’s just not mention that white parent. If we call him black long enough everyone will believe he’s just black and forget he’s bi-racial”. GAH! This does not give full credit to the man he is, nor to any other bi-racial (black and any other) child who “appears” more black than their other ehtnicity. It seems to say “don’t celebrate your unique heritage, pick one side or the other and forget the rest of the package”. GAH
    Sorry Im on the other side f the fence on this but I think it needed to be said.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 1:53 am ¶

60. leslie wrote:

    I enjoyed everyone’s comments except for #12, Eric’s. I think his statement about black women playing the mules is just not historically correct. First of all, there was no IR marriage when black people were involved. It was illegal during slavery and definately during Jim Crow. During slavery most of these relations where out and out rape and child molestation. During Jim Crow white men enjoyed black women more freely, being they had affairs. But they didn’t have real, free loving relationships, it was all done in secret. Black women were the mistresses and whores. Even with white men light skin black women were favored. In fact, Mrs. Loving in that historical case was a very light skin black woman. His claim that back in the day black women, especially dark ones enjoyed loving IR relationships with white men is not true. But I suspect he claimed that to prove his point that there is hypocrisy, now since we’re on the loosing end in IR relationships now we don’t like it.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 3:00 am ¶

61. Tafari wrote:

    I’m a Black man married to a Black woman who happens to be bi-racial & I have to admit, I do not enjoy seeing BM/WM relationships. I guess it really makes no difference because it is not my business but it does trip me out. I feel equally the same for BW/WM relationships.

    With this said, I do not disrespect anyone for who they like but, serial conscious daters of white counterparts make me sick. In this, I mean those who have to have a white man or woman.

    Ironically, I find interracial relationships between a Black man or woman with another minority all good.

    But my bottom line is about preserving the Black man, woman & child.

    Oh, and I do no think Michelle Obama is dark skinned, but what difference does it make. She’s a Black woman married to a wonderful man, a Black man & she’s unashamed about it!

    Not trying to start a fight, just voicing an opinion like others.

    Tafari

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 3:49 am ¶

62. stella wrote:

    Someone mentioned earlier that Barack didn’t really spend his formative years in the thick of the African-American community. That could have been a good thing. I’m guessing he wasn’t exposed to the color politics within the black community, until he was man of his own ideas.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 4:02 am ¶

63. RJ Evans wrote:

    Here in the UK it was in the media a while back that black women and white men were more likely to date each other because they were in the same income bracket – or with little between them, the white guys usually earning more.

    However, for a variety of reasons, social, political and so on (you *know* the so on!), black men still earn significantly less in the UK than white men. Hence it was thought that the attraction might at least be partly financial on the part of black women towards white men. Plus they were more likely to come across white guys in the workplace.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 11:48 am ¶

64. reese wrote:

    @ SeattleSlim
    As far as Black culture not allowing for deviation from the norm, that’s something that I’ve gotten more from older folks. I’d always thought it had something to do with constantly being seen as the inferior other. i.e. “People are already thinking negatively about you because you’re Black. Why would you want to multiply that by becoming a goth/metalhead/having blue hair. etc?” And, maybe because of their past experiences, older folks view deviating from the “Black norm” as an attempt to assimilate into Whiteness. For instance, it’s possible that the Black girl with only White friends has been rejected by other Black people. But, it’s also likely that she’s isolated herself from other Black people. I think the urge/pressure to distance one’s self from what’s seen as “Blackness” is still pretty strong throughout this country, and it permeates throughout all ethnic groups. Maybe that’s where the backlash lies. Because some Black people just like classical music. And, some Black people “like” classical music because it makes them look better than all of those ignorant, unwordly Black people listening to hip-hop. That’s always been my interpretation and experience, at least!

    @Monie
    I agree with your entire comment.

    On a completely different note, it hasn’t been my experience that Whites are more accepting of Blacks existing outside of neat boxes. I find many White people – even if they tend to be less vocal – are just as comfortable policing Blackness as people who are actually Black! Check out any site where Sci-Fi geeks gather to witness this. Someone once made the astute comment that members of subcultures/geeks/fandoms etc. tend to be even more stubborn than your average person about “knowing” what it means to be Black, Latin@, Asian, a woman, etc. They think – by virtue of their interests – that they know all about marginalization and living on the fringes of society. As if being a comic book nerd ever got anyone interned!

    And, I also wouldn’t say that Obama was completely shielded from colorism by growing up in Hawaii. Or that colorism only affects the way Blacks interact with and date one another. American media is global, and there are certain attitudes you can’t get away from. At the very least, he probably saw School Daze! I also think there’s a reason Halle Berry and Beyonce are so acceptable to the mainstream; it’s not only about perceived talent. How many darker-skinned Black females are seen as beautiful in the mainstream? Maybe Gabrielle Union, but she’s always been much more popular with Black audiences. The only people I’ve heard exclaiming that Michelle Obama is “too dark” were White people. And I’ve never heard a Black person say “Michelle Obama is “pretty for a dark-skinned woman.”

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 12:17 pm ¶

65. moore wrote:

    I understand the history involved and the societal implications/rankings, but I think it’s misleading to assuming most White men who date Black women are these selfless, non-colorist anti-racists (especially considering all of the sexual stereotypes about Women of Color).

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 12:31 pm ¶

66. Miz JJ wrote:

    @eric daniels: Strong may want to blame his interracial marriage for a lack of promotion, but IMO he’s in denial. There is a lack of black coaches in all sports and at all levels and it is because they’re black not because they may have married a white woman. I can’t believe that Strong has thrown his wife under the bus like that trying to blame their relationship for his lack of professional advancement when there are other black men who have not been promoted as well. I guess they don’t have a white wife to blame. But that’s an interesting idea though. White women has a detriment to the career of a black man. I don’t buy it, or else why do so many successful black men marry white women?

    Like many others I enjoy seeing Barack love up his black wife. Black women are not always valued in our society and to see a black family in such prominence makes me happy. It’s time to show another side of black women one that is educated, beautiful and desirable.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 12:44 pm ¶

67. Squidfly wrote:

    It’s sad that so many people here judge the content of Obama’s character by the color tone of his spouse.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 1:00 pm ¶

68. lunanoire wrote:

    @ eric daniels-

    In comparing the effect of an IR on a black person’s career, isn’t it best to compare apples with apples? Maybe comparing CEOs to other CEOs, or actresses/comedians/singers/female models/talk show hosts to actors/comedians/singers/male models/talk show hosts, or successful college female coaches to successful male college coaches. Are there any female college football coaches who are black women in IR? I think racism manifests itself in different jobs/careers in different ways. This is not to excuse racist barriers that have prevented these coaches from advancing in their careers. They deserve to advance because they have the skills, but I am more concerned about the single parents of black-identified kids who suffer in their careers because of the challenges of single parenthood.

    Is the “grey” the idea that successful black men in IR suffer for their choices? Many people understand that making a decision has consequences which are rarely 100% good or 100% bad. Should these men suffer for being in IR? No.

    Like the temporarily slumming rich 25 year old compared to the status-conscious corporate 25 yr old who grew up poor, it’s easy to devalue things you have always had enough of, whether it’s food, widespread validation, etc.

    I have noticed a slightly disturbing “Michelle Obama’s not dark, she’s smart and beautiful” trend. Dark is not a bad thing. My definition of dark for a black person: would not pass a paper bag test.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 1:14 pm ¶

69. gatamala wrote:

    I love that the Obamas are open about how it takes a team to have a political career (for which HRC was vilified) and especially to be President. What many of the ladies here enjoy is how he revels in her advisory and management skills as well as her love.

    Also, it is readily apparent that they are compatible in temprament, interests, sense of humor, education, motivation, achievement, sense of purpose, values and outlook. Parity matters. It takes a hell of a man to be able to hang with that. Period.

    I’m sure those gams don’t hurt either.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 1:26 pm ¶

70. Ryan Barrett wrote:

    Hey Tafari –
    Hmmm… if your bottom line is all about preserving the Black man, woman and child, it doesn’t follow that you’re fine with Black people dating outside of their race so long as the person they’re dating isn’t White. And furthermore, that Black people who generally date White “make you sick”.

    There must be something deeper than preserving the race that disturbs you about dating “White”, as it were. Which is an interesting “double standard” to explore.

    What do you think?
    -Ryan

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 2:03 pm ¶

71. DivergentDana wrote:

    “With this said, I do not disrespect anyone for who they like but, serial conscious daters of white counterparts make me sick. In this, I mean those who have to have a white man or woman.”

    So, you don’t, but then, you do? Do you mean that you don’t notify them personally of your disgust with the way they run their lives?

    “Hence it was thought that the attraction might at least be partly financial on the part of black women towards white men. Plus they were more likely to come across white guys in the workplace.”

    Isn’t BM/WW more common in the UK, as well? And are these relationships ones of SES parity, or are the WMs making significantly more than the BFs in a way that can’t be explained by pay disparities/age/average levels of hypergamy among monoracial couples?

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 2:35 pm ¶

72. Anonymous wrote:

    First off I think this piece is great AND I the comments have been a great discussion. BUT I just have to respond to the comment by Tea that I have included below.

    One of the huge reasons that Obama is identified as Black is because HE self identifies as Black. I have read his bio book, interview articles and watched interviews with him and he never calls himself biracial. HE calls himself Black from a bi-racial family – there is nothing wrong with this. And I am glad that the media (for the most part) has respected and accepted his self-identification. Obama is NOT denying or choosing sides, he does not refuse to acknowledge or talk about his white parentage. And just as one might want to be respected for the fact that they do choose to identify as multi-racial, the same respect should be afforded to Obama’s choice to identify as Black from a bi-racial family.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 2:58 pm ¶

73. jackie.q. wrote:

    what about queer relationships? this time last year i remember taking stock of all of my gay/queer partnered friends and colleagues and out of about dozen couples, all in nyc, all were interracial. (including me, a white woman and my partner, a black transgender man)

    very very many couple configurations among transgender women and men, non-transgender women and men, black, white, asain, and latina.

    i always feel like in the gay/lesbian/bi/transgender/queer community there’s more interracial dating.

    my ideas on why were #1 there are just plain fewer of us, so chances are we’re going to meet people of different races more often (in nyc at least).

    and #2 some folks may steer clear from IR relationships due to wondering how their parents/family/friends/society will judge, but for gay folks a lot of those people are more likely to have already shunned us, so who cares…

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 3:21 pm ¶

74. MoeHailstone wrote:

    One of the reasons i love Barrack and Michelle is they compliment each other. A black couple doing things and making history. I leave it right there.

    Don’t care what shade but one of the things that strikes me about the whole “double standard” about interracial relationships in regards to black women is everyone seems to NEVER MENTION the affinity for black women clamoring for “light skinned” black men. I remember experiencing that growing up in Ohio and remember in the late 80’s if you weren’t Will Smith / LL colored and ‘up’ you weren’t desirable. I never hear anyone talk about that and to be honest I can remember fighting on both fronts
    1. To not date interracially even though we did live in the ‘burbs..neighborhood 205 homes..9 black households
    2.That always being overlooked being dark approaching black women.

    Funny thing is that as time went on and things change (work your ay up the ladder) and then those same black women that had nothing to say when you approached them are upset that you date interracially. “Get the fuck off my block!!” To me alot of black women play themselves with those attitudes that never seem to get mentioned.

    So to me life goes on and be with who is walking the same path that you are. That is the most reflective attribute I see in Barrack and Michelle is that they are a portrait of what any coupling should be. Where was Michelle when my ass was growin’ up? Thats my question…

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 4:31 pm ¶

75. Sewere wrote:

    Hey Beth and Leslie,
    re:

    In most interracial marriages that have one African American partner, that partner is male. See here:
    http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=440

    and

    First of all, there was no IR marriage when black people were involved. It was illegal during slavery and definately during Jim Crow. During slavery most of these relations where out and out rape and child molestation. During Jim Crow white men enjoyed black women more freely, being they had affairs. But they didn’t have real, free loving relationships, it was all done in secret. Black women were the mistresses and whores.

    I loathe to agree with Eric Daniel’s screed but in this case you’re both correct. I and Rachel were in discussion about interracial* and inter-ethnic pairings involving black people which lead to a number of posts on her site (I think one of which was cross-posted here). While the majority of black white pairings are Black male and white female, it wasn’t always like that. Post slavery and reconstruction, there were actually more black women/white men pairings than the BM/WW (even though it was legal in a few states). That changed over the period of two decades between the late 50s and early 70s. I will try and find the data on black white pairings by Monday.

    More recent data is showing that the trend is shifting slowly towards more parity between black men and women in relationships with whites. Some of that may be the fact that there are more black women getting college and graduate degrees than black men, as is happening in the U.K. There are other factors but I need to figure out how they will impact future pairings (more by Monday).

    *Rachel’s post on interracial couples and money shows that in BW/WM pairings, BW are likely to be more educated than the WM they’re partnered with. This is even stranger when you compare that to BW/BM pairings where they are more likely to be at the same educational level.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 4:52 pm ¶

76. jvansteppes wrote:

    Nelly: I read that interview with Will Smith too as well as another interview with some producer of Hitch who was like [paraphrasing] ‘oh, a Latina is always a great compromise because she’s not to light and not too black so everyone’s happy’.
    It strikes me that Hollywood has some kind of fucked up goldilocks complex whereby Latinas [as an undifferentiated group, of course] have their own identities swept under the rug so they can be the right-tasting porridge for movie studios…

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 4:56 pm ¶

77. Eric Daniels wrote:

    “(leslie )I enjoyed everyone’s comments except for #12, Eric’s. I think his statement about black women playing the mules is just not historically correct. First of all, there was no IR marriage when black people were involved.”

    First of all you could get married in North, Midwest, and Western United States you couldn’t get married in the South during the “Jim Crow” era. If that was the case then Lena Horne’s Dorothy Danridge, Maya Angelou and Pearl Bailey’s marriages would not have meant a thing. A perfect example is gay marriage where in Mass and Conn and Cali it’s legal everywhere else it’s illegal.

    “(Leslie )During Jim Crow white men enjoyed black women more freely, being they had affairs. But they didn’t have real, free loving relationships, it was all done in secret. Black women were the mistresses and whores.”

    Leslie, even though the vast majority of these relationships were by rape a good many of these realtionships between the Slave Master and Female Slaves were loving even if there were an open secret .I think you should read or watch Ann Rice’s “Feast of All Saints” for an example and the one main reason there are some many shades of African- Americans to this day.

    “(Leslie) Even with white men light skin black women were favored. In fact, Mrs. Loving in that historical case was a very light skin black woman. ”

    Leslie, and other posters why did you think the NAACP legal defense fund used the Lovings instead of someone famous like Sammy Davis Jr. or Mya Britt ? or an average BM/WF southern couple who wanted to be married ,Because they knew that an average BW/WM relationship would stand a better chance of getting a positive outcome in the Supreme Court than a BM/WF couple.

    ” (Leslie) But I suspect he claimed that to prove his point that there is hypocrisy, now since we’re on the loosing end in IR relationships now we don’t like it.”

    Sorry Leslie all you get is “fire and snakes”, I am tired of the hypocritical nature some BW display when it comes to this issue and an educated BW in 2009 is not in the same social postion as my grandmother, motherand other BW when 70 % of students of African- American descent who attend college are BW. And 95 % of all A.A. marriages still occur monoracially.

    And finally Leslie, NONE OF US are missing these BW who have utter contempt for us and frankly, the media reports of the Black Male’s demise is greatly exaggerated.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 5:40 pm ¶

78. Jason wrote:

    IRRs continue to be targeted by white racists, and it’s unfortunate that some of the “anti-racists” seem to be joining in. I understand where most of you are coming from; obviously things aren’t perfect, and we shouldn’t pretend to be “color-blind”. But I think some of us have made some unfair generalizations. Maybe I should be more resilient…but it’s unsettling nonetheless.

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 6:08 pm ¶

79. NancyP wrote:

    I am going off topic to comment on the Obama family representation of women (not addressing race).

    I like it that Barack O married an intelligent, very well educated and employed, take-no-BS Michelle rather than an “I’m just a librarian” Laura Bush type .

    A First Lady has to know her role, which requires her to defer to the President (in public protocol), because he IS the President. She also needs to remember that she is outside the official lines of authority of the Administration and should not publicly meddle without specified portfolio. She shouldn’t downgrade herself in public, playing the silly or naive little wife, but should uphold her own dignity. It is an unfortunate burden, submitting to being seen as a representative of American womanhood to the rest of the world while being limited in scope of activity by tradition and in order to avoid the appearance of corruption. I am glad to have Michelle O present to the world a smart, educated, competent, proud woman in a more nearly equal marriage.

    Plus, the whole family is photogenic, and Barack O. dotes on his daughters. In a world where the majority of families strongly prefer sons and view the birth of excess daughters as anywhere from a disappointment to a family disaster, it’s a good thing to show the most powerful man in the world being proud of his daughters. Hope, indeed!

    I want to see more women in high elected office and high governmental appointments (and lower office and appointments, where future high office holders gain experience). But I don’t discount the utility of good PR for smart women, ” equal” marriages, and highly valued daughters.

    Now back to the actual topic…..

    Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 8:30 pm ¶

80. fallon wrote:

    I do think there is a bit of hyprocrisy involved in some Black women’s reactions to Black men’s relationships (with or without women of color). LisaJ’s (comment #35) friend illustrates this perfectly. I understand the history, but I’m not entirely sure that justifies the double standard.

    I don’t want to get into Black men/White women relationships (although I’ll state that I see nothing wrong with interracial relationships, as long as they aren’t based on fetishes and twisted “preferences”). But, I think we should at least acknowledge that some light-skinned Black women like, or even prefer, dark-skinned men. Not every light-skinned Black woman sees herself as a trophy or prize. And not every Black man with a wife who’s lighter than him is colorstruck. I am not denying how pervasive colorism is, but I think the previous points are valid. I find Saul Williams as attractive as I do Hill Harper. But, if I dated someone like Williams or Underwood, I’d be his lighter-skinned trophy girlfriend (even if I don’t have keen features or “good” hair). If I dated someone like Harper or Obama (who’s closer to my skin tone), I’d still be his light-skinned trophy girlfriend (even though I’m not supermodel-slim). Is that really how it’s supposed to work? Which Black men are lighter-skinned Black women supposed to date to escape the criticism? I’m asking this question quite seriously:)!

    I love Michelle Obama, and it will be nice to see someone like her held up as a standard of beauty. I’m extremely happy she’s our First Lady. But, I do find it curious that a person who only dates White people can criticize someone else for dating lighter-skinned Black people. This last statement isn’t directed at any poster here, but it certainly describes a few people I know IRL.

    To Kristen:
    I agree with you. Tangentially, I think it’s even more problematic when People of Color elevate Whites who are in interracial relationships. A White person who dates a Person of Color is NOT inherently openminded, enlightened, unbigoted,
    “colorblind,” pro-Black, noncolorist, etc.

    This is a notion that I’ve come across far too many times. A White man who likes the (not-dark-skinned) Paula Patton or Sanaa Lathan is a noble prince who is “appreciative of Black beauty.” A Black man who likes Paula Patton or Sanaa Lathan is colorstruck. I think we need to break away from those modes of thinking. And if White men with Women of Color ended racism, America would have been post-racial 400 years ago!

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 12:08 am ¶

81. Kaonashi wrote:

    I think of many things when I think of Grace Jones, but “sexually loose” isn’t one of them.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 12:37 am ¶

82. Beth wrote:

    @ Jason (#78), re: “But I think some of us have made some unfair generalizations. ” Agreed.

    @ Eric Daniels (#77), re: “think you should read or watch Ann Rice’s “Feast of All Saints” for an example…” I definitely believe that there’s some truth in fiction, but I don’t think that the picture can be completed by it. To that end, to consider issues of power in master/slavewomen relations, I’d look at Harriet Jacob’s slave narrative, _Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl_, as well as Chapter 3, “Seduction and the Ruses of Power” of Saidiya Hartman’s academic work, _Scenes of Subjection: Terror, Slavery, and Self-Making in Nineteenth-Century America_. (Many slave narratives authored by men, including those of Frederick Douglass and Henry “Box” Brown comment on master/slavewoman relations as well, but Jacobs’ is great as a primary source, so to say. Other academic works broach these issues as well.) Fiction-wise, Morrison’s _Beloved_ also has a scene in which Sethe recalls being sexually violated by the plantation’s schoolteacher with that one phrase, “…and they took my milk.” (The film does a good job of making clear how violent and horrible this is, as many readers miss it.) Novels from William Wells Brown’s _Clotel_ through Edward Jones’ _The Known World_ have touched on this topic in nuanced and varied ways, but the the disparity in power is always at issue.

    @Seware, interesting.

    @ jackie.q. (#73) re: “what about queer relationships?” True dat; I’d love for more of us to look at this perspective. I do gather from friends and loved ones that there are IR issues in queer relationships as well, even if they aren’t always exactly some of the same issues found with hetero couples.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 2:50 am ¶

83. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Dark- Skinned Black Women get more attention because in the white media and it’s various organs who created the steotypes of the Dark- Skinned Mammy who either sexually loose (Grace Jones) or the motherly type like (Oprah and Maya Angelou) or the ugly dark- skinned girl like (Whoppi Goldberg Alex Wek) that both sides embraced but these women have married or dated across racial lines without much criticism from either mainstream society or the media. ”

    I think there’s not much backlash from mainstream society or the media because black women aren’t perceived as as much of a threat to the status quo regarding the gender/racial heirarchy in the way that black men may be, especially the many black men who’ve become rich and famous through stereotypically masculine pursuits. It’s weird that you’d be talking about this subject, Eric, because I was having the exact same argument with my father today about interracial sex in the South. He doesn’t even believe there were black women willingly selling their bodies to WMs in the post-Civil War, pre-Civil Rights era. *facepalm*

    “This is a notion that I’ve come across far too many times. A White man who likes the (not-dark-skinned) Paula Patton or Sanaa Lathan is a noble prince who is “appreciative of Black beauty.” A Black man who likes Paula Patton or Sanaa Lathan is colorstruck.”

    Yeah, I also made brief reference to the gilding of WM who desire black women in general, or even just one in particular. They aren’t “gift horses”, damn it, they’re imperfect people who should be held to the exact same standards as black men, not given a cookie for seeing us as women, because “he didn’t have to go through the trouble.” And white men are just as susceptible to making colorstruck assessments of black women’s appearance. The idea that some black people hold that whites “don’t notice things like that” about black people is largely a myth.

    “Rachel’s post on interracial couples and money shows that in BW/WM pairings, BW are likely to be more educated than the WM they’re partnered with.”

    I wonder why that is? I’m not being snarky, I honestly do.

    “On a completely different note, it hasn’t been my experience that Whites are more accepting of Blacks existing outside of neat boxes. I find many White people – even if they tend to be less vocal – are just as comfortable policing Blackness as people who are actually Black!”

    Furthermore, they may seem more accepting because of the person’s closer proximity to their culture, not because they’re just more accepting of everyone. It took me a minute to figure this out in my not-so-far-off youth. Of course, they would seem more accepting if you share the interests/beliefs/hobbies that they either have or are reasonably familiar/comfortable with. You’re also still on the outside looking in, it’s just that it’s expected in a way that it wouldn’t be among your own racial group. And sometimes, “not like the rest of the black people” is an acceptable substitute for “like a white person,” even though the interests/behavioral traits in question may very well have been a recipe for ostracism if the person were an actual white person and being measured by a more exact set of cultural rules.

    “Is that really how it’s supposed to work? Which Black men are lighter-skinned Black women supposed to date to escape the criticism? ”

    I don’t think — I’m guessing, because I’m mid-range color wise — that lighter skinned women and their mate choices are seen as the problem, as much as the active and passive rejection of dark women in the selection process by some black men is, and the resulting hierarchy/disparate amounts of relationship opportunities, attention, and praise. While it often pits woman against woman, and it’s often passed down from mothers unto their children, like black women’s feelings about BM/NBF IR relationships, black men seem to be at the center of the conflict. I’m not blaming black men in general, just explaining the beef.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 4:23 am ¶

84. Lisa J wrote:

    Eric I don’t understand why you are using a book written by a white woman as proof that slave women who had sexual contact with their slave masters largely did so willingly. I haven’t read the book, but since Ms. Rice is not an academic, writes fiction, and though her books often have a historical element they are largely fantasy and horror I see no reason for that to be sufficient to consider her work to be historically accurate or to give her special insight into racial issues especially in the past. To me it sounds like you are blaming the victim, black women, for the racial mixing in present day America. Do you really think that people who did not respect the lives, the humanity or even the agency of an individual to have their labor only benefit themselves would be so sensitive as to ASK a woman who was their property if they could have sex with them or to approach them in a sweet romantic way in order to have them? These people treated their slaves as chattle and you think they entered into loving relationships for the most part? Come on!
    So these women were at fault for being double victims and even though you site a handful of hollywood women who date white men you extrapolate that to mean more white men date white woman than vice versa despite all the numbers saying something else and then you call people who point out that fact as childish? Maybe you need to reflect a bit before you throw that term around.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 11:50 am ¶

85. Lisa J wrote:

    Whoops I think I just accodently double posted. And I meant to say at one point more white men dating black women than vice versa not more white men dating white women! Of course more more white men date white women than anyone else, duh!

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 12:04 pm ¶

86. JB wrote:

    Personally, I think the whole “I only date (insert race) of men because my own ethnicity doesn’t value me is a tired excuse for women who actutally think that the romantic/sexual approval of white men is the only cure for their having asorbed the white media’s depiction of white women being the archtype for beauty. Its like some are concerned about “proving” they are as good as white women in the eyes f the ultimate judge the almightywhite man (which is an insane mindset to have to feel one has to prove their equal worth to another human being).

    Obviously dating or marrying a black guy isn’t enough to quell those feelings so excuses are made about how black men in general “rejected them” so they bear no guilt when confronted with doing the same thing they accuse and demonize non-white men for doing.

    A non-white man dating a white woman is a betrayal of the race, but a non white woman with a white man is a woman looking out for her best romantic interest (after being rejected by the men of her ethnicity of course).

    I wish people would just say they are attracted to white men or women and leave it at that without the fictional or exaggerated stories about rejection within thier own race and accept that you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t do the same thing as the people you are critical of and yet claim it is different. That is hypocrisy no matter how it is dressed up.

    Also, I am happily married to a black woman a lovely woman, who is well educated, funny and the light of my world. I bear no grudge towards black people dating other ethnicities, I just wish is wasn’t always accompanied by the same tires, hackneyed “tyrone” story that it seems so many women tell to explain why they have a right to be critical and rude and hateful of black men doing the same thing. You don’t have to put down your own people when you date another ethnicity…why do people almost always want to do that. Do white guys talk crap about white women and vice versa when they date another ethnicity?

    The same is also true for those black men who go around saying black women are too loud or sassy or what not to explain their attraction to white women.

    The media is telling convincing waaaay to many men and women that they are not attractive the way they are born and forcing them to play some twisted ratings game where you get self-confidence points for dating people that don’t look like you. Except for the white people, they have every possible aspect of media and society telling them they are great, intelligent,noble etc…as far as Obama goes, thank goodness he grew up abroad and not in the sickening racial atmosphere of the US otherwise he would not be the man he is today.

    Finally, it is never brought up by white-owned media, but black men actually date/marry outside of their ethnicity far less than white men do. So where are the stories in Family Circle or USA today about why white men don’t love white women? I swear I see why Black men don’t marry back women stories every 3rd month on the cover of Ebony.

    There are plenty of bad wives/ husbands and boyfriends/girlfriends among white men and women and yet I never hear white singers crooning constantly to their genders to not put up with crap from white men and women as I do in so many R&B songs. No while people are always honorable and good spouses (?).

    Someone is playing a head game with black people and too many of us fall for it and direct anger at each other instead of the source and then seek comfort/love in the very ethnicity that promotes this crap. Ironic.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 3:15 pm ¶

87. Nelly wrote:

    Sewere wrote:
    *Rachel’s post on interracial couples and money shows that in BW/WM pairings, BW are likely to be more educated than the WM they’re partnered with. This is even stranger when you compare that to BW/BM pairings where they are more likely to be at the same educational level.

    Did the study look at White women/White men pairings? If so, are White women more likely to be better educated than the White men they date? Or are they more evenly matched? If it’s the latter, I think a racial – and to a lesser extent, gender – hierarchy may be coming into play. i.e. A White male high school graduate has about the same caché and standing as a Black female college graduate (and the larger society reinforces this hierarchy). We often talk about how racial minorities and women have to be twice as good to even get noticed. The findings could just be that belief manifested in the dating game. That’s just one theory.

    When it comes to dating, I’ve always thought that society’s gender hierarchy played out in a weird and contradictory way.* On the one hand, women are encouraged to look beyond the superficial, to date the nerds and the uncool boys-next-door (something which guys are rarely encouraged to do).** On the other hand, Cosmo and its ilk have endless articles on how to land a handsome, rich guy. So many mixed messages. And, because of that, I’m open to the fact that my previous theory is very, very wrong!
    _________________________

    jvansteppes: It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who found fault with the whole Hitch situation!
    _________________________

    *I can’t really come up with race-based equivalents. I’d wager that Audrey, Latina, and Essence have addressed racial hierarchies in dating. But, those magazines are for Women of Color (and Asian women are considered much more acceptable partners for White men). If Cosmo ever addressed interracial relationships, the article was probably full of colorblind, “the only race is the human race,” Grey’s Anatomy-type nonsense. And, because their readership is largely White women, they wouldn’t be as negatively affected by a racial hierarchy.

    ** I mean no offense to nerds or uncool boys-next-door; they’re just my type!

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 3:42 pm ¶

88. Vanessa, Michigan wrote:

    NancyP wrote:

    I am going off topic to comment on the Obama family representation of women (not addressing race).

    I like it that Barack O married an intelligent, very well educated and employed, take-no-BS Michelle rather than an “I’m just a librarian” Laura Bush type .

    ———————————-

    This is the dumbest thing that someone could ever say.

    There is nothing wrong with being a liberian…nothing at all.

    Laura bush has a Master of Science in Library Science.

    She isn’t an illiterate, uneducated or mentally retarded

    Just b/c she chooses to be less active in the public life compared to Clinton…doesn’t mean she is any less of a first lady than previous ones.

    Don’t diminish her education or Liberians all over the world just b/c you have a soft spot for the Obama’s.

    Mrs. Obama and Mrs. Bush are both accomplished women in their own rights and it is just hateful that you diminish one b/c they aren’t the doctor or the lawyer that society seems to value more.

    There is nothing wrong with being a social worker, Liberian, teacher, and other careers involved with education.

    We need lawyers just as much as we need Liberians…one is not greater than the other.

    ——————————-

    Also, I don’t get how a black woman who only dates white men…could get so happy that a lightskinned black male is married to a dark women. But, will get very opposite if a dark skinned black male dates a light skinned women or a white women.

    That is colorism at its finest and if any people on this board do not see it as such well they are just blind.

    I don’t understand how so many people could easily degenerate the lighter black women b/c of their supposed favoritism in the media …..colorism….and self-hatred.

    If one is confident in themselves the person shouldn’t give a rat’s ass about what other people in media think.

    Personally I believe that….it isn’t the white media that is doing this b/c it seems they seem to focus a lot on darker complexion women…but more of the black media that is guilty of this colorism.

    Honestly,black people are our own worst enemies.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 4:16 pm ¶

89. Mike wrote:

    “Finally, it is never brought up by white-owned media, but black men actually date/marry outside of their ethnicity far less than white men do. So where are the stories in Family Circle or USA today about why white men don’t love white women?”

    That is an interesting question. Rephrasing it, one could ask “how much importance to white people place on their own whiteness?”

    “There are plenty of bad wives/ husbands and boyfriends/girlfriends among white men and women and yet I never hear white singers crooning constantly to their genders to not put up with crap from white men and women as I do in so many R&B songs.”

    Modern urban white culture tends to exert cultural influence by reflecting the actions of others and showing those actions to be ridiculous. (Daily Show, etc) It rarely tries to boldly speak some sort of truth: that would be seen as arrogant. It isn’t that the “don’t put up with crap” message isn’t out there. It is just hard to make a good song about making fun of other people that put up with crap. That message gets expressed in other media instead.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 4:24 pm ¶

90. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Do white guys talk crap about white women and vice versa when they date another ethnicity?”

    Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 6:30 pm ¶

91. Seattle Slim wrote:

    ty wrote:

    I guess i am confused about why anyone fantasized about white men when they are the ones that systematically put minorities down and propogate the stereotypes of unattractiveness through movies and television. I dont get it.

    ===========================
    Umm then we are all screwed as black people because there are black men and women who systematically put minorities down and propagate stereotypes. Karrine Stephans and Plies anyone?

    White racists in powere will do what they do. Our PEOPLE do not have to take the bait, yet they CHOOSE to because money talks to them I guess.

    I will continue to fantasize about any man of any race because that’s what I like. My boyfriend is not propagating any stereotype, unless it’s the “stereotype” of loving a black woman who is natural and independent. That’s a stereotype I like.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 6:54 pm ¶

92. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @64 Reese:

    You are right about some black folks liking “white” things to look better than black folks, but the same can be said about white kids who are considered “wiggers.” The thing is, the truth always comes to light.

    I will say this, what may begin as wanting to just live your life and be yourself, may turn into wanting to seek isolation after one has been consistently put down by their own for so long. But can that be helped? As adults sometimes we get tired of the BS and we go where we are accepted. White kids do this all the time by immersing themselves with other goths, punks, even other blacks if they love all things considered “black.” I have not isolated myself, but I’m not out there seeking to be accepted either. I just want to be around other people who are like-minded or not, as long as they respect where I’m coming from and won’t give me grief for it.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 7:00 pm ¶

93. Seattle Slim wrote:

    Personally, I think the whole “I only date (insert race) of men because my own ethnicity doesn’t value me is a tired excuse for women who actutally think that the romantic/sexual approval of white men is the only cure for their having asorbed the white media’s depiction of white women being the archtype for beauty. Its like some are concerned about “proving” they are as good as white women in the eyes f the ultimate judge the almightywhite man (which is an insane mindset to have to feel one has to prove their equal worth to another human being).

    ==============================
    It’s easy if you’ve toed the line all your life. I have no problem dating a black man if he can dig it. You are too dismissive.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 7:04 pm ¶

94. Eric Daniels wrote:

    The Reason I mentioned Ann Rice’s book “Feast of All Saints” because for the average American
    Lisa J and Beth because the books you mention may bore the average person and though fiction Rice always does a good job in her research before she writes her books so the characters and events come alive and the movie that was on Showtime is excellent and a good introduction into the Creole/Slave/White Master dark skinned narrative.

    I also have problems with Black Men who fetishes light-skinned Black Women like that idiot rapper “Young Berg” whose mother is dark-skinned and says he finds dark-skinned women replusive.I like Black Women in all shades but I like women period, all I want is my

    1. remote control (football ,Basketball)
    2. big piece of chicken (with mac&cheese)
    3. Green Tea

    I just find that the same BW on this site who criticizes me for stating their hypocrisy are so weak in the knees that Obama is to married to Michelle and have utter contempt for Black Males in general but live intergrated lives have white or other ethnic lovers for husbands and never come into social/romantic contact with Black Men but always takes the time to criticize BM for bad behavior whenever possible but will never critique their White Spouses, Lovers or family memebers for their racist or sexist behavior people with whom they see everyday and interact with more than a black rapper in a video or some hecklers whom they will never see again.

    Yes Leslie, Swerve, Lisa J ,lunanoire, Miss JJ that is what I have a problem with, the utter hypocrisy of some educated Black Women in 2009 for attitudes that if a BM or man of color did what Robin Thicke does with Paula Patton using his Black Wife as a high- class prop in his videos or interviews and Black Women eat it up like jello with no criticism. You never hear Taye Tiggs whoring Indira Menzel or vice versa to promote their careers as husband and wife with race-based appeals.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 8:40 pm ¶

95. Kaonashi wrote:

    Personally, I think the whole “I only date (insert race) of men because my own ethnicity doesn’t value me is a tired excuse for women who actutally think that the romantic/sexual approval of white men is the only cure for their having asorbed the white media’s depiction of white women being the archtype for beauty.

    Serious question here. How much of this statement is actually true, and how much of it is something that you’re ASSUMING about random strangers on the street based on personal bias?

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 9:31 pm ¶

96. DivergentDana wrote:

    “A non-white man dating a white woman is a betrayal of the race, but a non white woman with a white man is a woman looking out for her best romantic interest (after being rejected by the men of her ethnicity of course).”

    Furthermore, how would a white person be percieved if he/she made the same rationalization — that white women/men didn’t want him/her, so she/he’s turning to _____ race as romantic partners? The power dynamics are very different, yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that no one wants to be seen as a consolation prize, or a good enough substitute when times are hard.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 9:54 pm ¶

97. Princess wrote:

    The topic of interracial relationships is clearly one of the most controversial topics of discussion. There are some very interesting comments here, however what is most disturbing to me is the fact that interracial dating is often boxed into the idea of Black/White partnerships only. In my opinion, there is no limit to the possibilities when a couple is suitable for each other and there is mutual love and respect. Of course, challenges may exist in terms of racial, ethnic, cultural, religious or even class differences, but challenges also exist in same race partnerships. Personally, as a Black woman, I would not justify an interracial relationship by putting down Black men or compare all Black men to a man of another race. In my opinion, that would be a form of self-hatred and possibly mental illness since I have not dated ALL Black men.

    It’s very refreshing to see Mr. and Mrs. Obama express and demonstrate their love, respect AND they also like each other. It’s simply beautiful! And I choose not to focus on the “what ifs” pertaining to either of their skin tones. Fortunately, although I’m single I have seen this type of love in my own family, particularly my late grandparents.

    @Eric Daniels-
    You stated, “what I have a problem with, the utter hypocrisy of some educated Black Women in 2009 for attitudes that if a BM or man of color did what Robin Thicke does with Paula Patton using his Black Wife as a high- class prop in his videos or interviews and Black Women eat it up like jello with no criticism. You never hear Taye Tiggs whoring Indira Menzel or vice versa to promote their careers as husband and wife with race-based appeals.”

    First of all, I definitely respect your opinion and I’m well aware of what is epitomized as the standard of beauty is many of the music videos and other forms of media. But I saw a televised interview a while ago with Robin Thicke and he stated his wife, Paula Patton offered to be in the video with him. He stated it was her idea and he was impressed since she has an acting career.

    Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 11:33 pm ¶

98. Tafari wrote:

    @ Ryan – Thx for calling me out. I do have a double standard thrown in there very true. i wish I could explain it well but I cannot.

    I guess I see more similarities in terms of social/political etc experiences amongst mixed minority groups.

    And “Black people who generally date White “make you sick”.” is not what I meant. I see a distinction between someone who generally or happens to date white men and or woman.

    My problem is with those who specially target white love interest because they feel that a Black love interest is sub par & undesirable.

    Tafari

    Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 12:57 am ¶

99. Seattle Slim wrote:

    @95: I would say a lot of it is an assumption, Kaonashi. I’ve seen and read this so many times from black men it’s not even funny. It’s not that serious, people. Boy meets girl. Girl meets boy. Girl and boy mesh. Girl and boy have chemistry. Girl and boy start dating. Girl and boy may take it to another level.

    Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 1:37 am ¶

100. Seattle Slim wrote:

     Robin Thicke is not using his wife as a high class prop. I disagree. Are you saying that she’s unattractive? Have you seen Paula? Most men would flaunt her at the grocery store if they had her, what’s wrong with him using his WIFE in his videos and album cover art? You sound like you may have an issue with him being white.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 1:40 am ¶

101. Seattle Slim wrote:

     Taye Diggs may not whore his wife out, but Ice T damned sure does. I don’t mind, I like Ice T and Coco lol. I like her.

     Plenty of black celebs have whore out their white girlfriends. Did you not notice?

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 1:42 am ¶

102. Squidfly wrote:

     94 Eric Daniels:
     Kudos, well put and thank you.

     I’ve been musing on a curio, what if there was a prop 9 “On how do you feel about Obama with a white wife?” Vote yea or nay.
     By some of the comments on this site, we’d be looking at a John Mac and a Sarah P inauguration.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 1:52 am ¶

103. JB wrote:

     @99 @95

     To clarify I’m not talking about people who really have a live and let live attitude in terms of dating. That is healthly and ultimately respectful. I’m speaking of the people who have a “If I do it it is fine, if you do it you are a horrible awful person” because of (insert personal experience). Its the whole goose and gander thing. I’ve heard it from a white guy dating an black woman (my cousin) disgusted that Princess Diana would be involved with “an arab” because she was a royal of course, not because he wasn’t white.

     I state it based on the personal actions of my sister-in-law, an aunt and a niece who although surrounded by a family of black men married to black women like to insist that they have been mistreated by “dozens” of black men or that black men aren’t attracted to black women really…and that is why they only seem to date white men…of course this makes everyone else wonder …what type of men are you dating that this is the case and since they have each gone through 2-3 white boyfriends with no claims of how awful white men are (in general as they do with blk men) it indeed does make me draw conclusions.

     If that isn’t the case with you and yours, great and if you feel that is the case, sorry you dated some less than quality guys who happened to be black. However, being black doesn’t make a man a bad mate.

     My favorite (because we like the same books) cousin dates white Britons because she loves english culture and the royal family…it doesn’t bother me because she is upfront about it and doesn’t try to bemoan the whole of black maledom being comprised of miscreants or the like as a reason as to why she does date who she does. Incredible how people (man and woman) don’t feel slighted if someone dates IR and yet is still respectful of the other gender which they share physical features and possibly culture.

     Like I said earlier being attracted to someone isn’t a bad thing, I just don’t see the need to put everyone of an ethnic gender down while you are doing it or listing that as the reason you are dating particular groups of people. That is really my only complaint. Date who you like but don’t go around putting down an entire group of people to justify your personal romantic choices or to jusify complaining about someone else doing the same thing.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 3:14 am ¶

104. aimerrouge wrote:

     I haven ‘t looked at the site since Friday afternoon. I love the discussion that has taken place. I don’t agree with all of it, but thanks to the all the folks who came out of the wood work.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 10:48 am ¶

105. A.D. Nix wrote:

     “@95: I would say a lot of it is an assumption, Kaonashi. I’ve seen and read this so many times from black men it’s not even funny. It’s not that serious, people. Boy meets girl. Girl meets boy. Girl and boy mesh. Girl and boy have chemistry. Girl and boy start dating. Girl and boy may take it to another level.”

     @ Seattle Slim: I think a lot of this is on point.

     @Vanessa Michigan: On point re: the Librarian comment. Question here:
     “Also, I don’t get how a black woman who only dates white men…could get so happy that a lightskinned black male is married to a dark women. But, will get very opposite if a dark skinned black male dates a light skinned women or a white women.”

     Are there women here doing this? Or is this just an ‘in general.’ Because I didn’t see anything here happen to that affect.

     @JB: “I bear no grudge towards black people dating other ethnicities, I just wish is wasn’t always accompanied by the same tires, hackneyed “tyrone” story that it seems so many women tell to explain why they have a right to be critical and rude and hateful of black men doing the same thing. You don’t have to put down your own people when you date another ethnicity…why do people almost always want to do that.”

     Do people always want to do that? I haven’t really heard a “Tyrone” (really?) story yet.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 11:02 am ¶

106. Lisa J wrote:

     @ Eric. I think I understand, although I really have not seen lots of black women who date white men exclusively but have seenmore of the opposite. I will check out the Anne Rice book, I do like her work, I was just suprised at her as a source. I think there is a lot of black men vs. black women rhetoric that gets thrown around by both sides, and it is a shame. I wonder how much of that is part of the gender wars in general and how much of it is just about external and internal racism within the black community.
     As for viewing white men who date black women as saviours, I agree that is problematic. I have definitely seen instances of whites who date blacks who are not terribly progressive on racial issues, other than the fact that they are willing to date outside of their race. THere was even a news report in the past year about a black woman who was kidnapped, raped, and terrorized by her white ex-boyfriend and his family, who used many racial epithets etc during the course of her captivity by those monsters. That is an extreme but obviously proves that point. I personally went out with one white guy (and I mentioned this in another post) who told me black history shouldn’t be taught to black kids b/c it makes them racist against white people (big fight and breakup) and another one who was so excited about the fact of dating a black woman (obviously didn’t work out). I suppose that is part of human nature’s quirkiness.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 12:37 pm ¶

107. 646Hedgie _for_now wrote:

     Interesting discussions. I too have noticed this double standard.

     It still bothers me; when I was younger – I could not presume to tell women (black or otherwise) who wanted to date taller men or more athletic men who to date so why do black women feel entitled to express an opinion about who I like to f***/date.

     In my mind, I have worked hard on my mind, my career and my body to make myself an acceptable mate – and I will go for what I find attractive.

     It is no one’s business but mine.

     At the end of the day, I have decided to try and act like all 27 of my years on this earth.

     There is no need for me to put down black women or say anything disrespectful.

     My mothers and sisters are black women. But I am not looking to date or sleep with women who look like them.

     I will continue to support black people in my career and volunteer organizations. I will continue to put my energies where I can help. I know I am a black man and lord knows some days it is hard for me to grab a cab in New York City. But at this point in time, I like white women. Attractive, in shape and educated white or latina women.

     And I will not apologize for it.

     This also means that I will never, ever be involved in politics or in a career where the optics of my family play a part. That is fine – I know my bed and I will lie in it. Luckily in finance, it is still about who can make the most money for shareholders and investors.

     Maybe I will never be sympathetic because women feel this need to be attractive. It is a power that I will never have. As a man, for me to get what I want out of the world, I need to be extremely successful and that is the track I am on.

     Finally, a message to the lady going on about trophy wives. When women talk like this I almost always lose my cool.

     More power to Barack for choosing the unconventional life partner. That is great for him.

     But for some of us: the motivation for being successful is getting the hot chick. Not the smart girl, not the girl next door. I know that as a woman who has had sexual currency, you don’t get that. But it is very important to a lot of men – and it is very important to me.

     It almost sounds like you want us all to work this hard, bust our asses, get the ivy league degree, the mba and then go out and get the most unattractive woman we can find (with the great personality of course), because only black athletes and actors are allowed to get attractive women.

     You’ll forgive me if I respectfully disagree.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 3:32 pm ¶

108. lunanoire wrote:

     @ Eric Daniels-

     I think it’s about people taking the political/public behavior and reacting to it from a personal view. Is it the healthiest view? Not necessarily. I think seeing random IR on the street is similar to media representation in that both are public. Just as many people are happy to see a non-white-on-one side president elect, others are happy to see a BW first lady to-be. The images we see often support certain messages, but not everyone agrees as to what the message is. Michelle Obama’s presence sends a message to some that BW are/can be valuable, smart, marriage-material.

     Does the hypocrisy exist? Yes. Even some people who are not at the bottom of the race/gender totem pole are hypocritical in this way. Is it right? No.

     As for BW never criticizing their non-black spouses, lovers, and family members for sexist or racist behavior- It’s unlikely, given that “never” is an absolute statement.

     As for the comment on determining the worth of BW in the eyes of men- at some point, we all need to be chosen (not necessarily by a man) , whether it’s as a new hire, a recipient of a sales contract, a roommate, or a date. I think that the only person who can afford to not care at all what anyone else thinks are hermit subsistence farmers. The rest of us are interdependent.

     Power dynamics affect racism. Straight men are stereotypically hunters and straight women the hunted. So, it makes sense for BW to cast a wider net (sorry for mixed metaphors) in searching for a date or a mate given the factual gender numbers disparity. The wider net is to include more ethnicities of men, not to exclude BM.

     Sometimes I wonder if some of this double standard has to do with the coming of age process. I can imagine nerdy, uncool, black kids who perhaps had non-stereotypically black
     interests being rejected by their black peers. By college, this is less of a problem for some of them. By the time they are adults in the working world, they may be considered attractive by a wider range of people as superficial high-school standards no longer apply. However, the perspective of these BW and BM may be based on childhood rejection by other blacks. These adults may automatically reject BM/BW for romantic possibilities. I think that’s what happened to Clarence Thomas.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 4:03 pm ¶

109. bluesky wrote:

     Princess wrote: There are some very interesting comments here, however what is most disturbing to me is the fact that interracial dating is often boxed into the idea of Black/White partnerships only.

     I think the comments here focus on Black/White partnerships because of Obama’s background, but I generally agree. Moreover, conversations surrounding interracial relationships always focus on White/PoC partnerships. I know those partnerships are probably more prevalent than PoC/PoC partnerships, because White people are the majority in this country. But I wonder if something else is at play.

     It would be interesting to see how many People of Color who date interracially only date Whites (and, maybe, people within their own ethnic group). It would also be interesting to see how many PoC date across all ethnic lines.
     —On a related note, I read that White men/Asian women partnerships outnumber White men/Black women partnerships. I’m not sure if it’s true (because I got the information secondhand), but it doesn’t sound unlikely. If the information is true, there has to be some reason why more White men are dating Asian women than Black women (considering there are nearly 3x as many Blacks as Asians in this country). Can the disparity be explained away with East Asian fetishes? Can the disparity be explained by the stereotype (which Restructure! pointed out) that Asian=feminine and Black=masculine? Are White men who date interracially overwhelmingly dating Asians (as opposed to other racial minorities)? Are Asian women who date interracially overwhelmingly dating Whites? What racial biases are coming into play for people who consider themselves “openminded” enough to date interracially? Sadly, racial minorities aren’t immune from stereotyping other minorities. I’ve never seen surveys on interracial dating, so I’m kind of curious what we’d find.

     A.D. Nix wrote: Do people always want to do that? I haven’t really heard a “Tyrone” (really?) story yet.

     No one on this thread has really done it. But, I have rarely seen a conversation on interracial dating that didn’t devolve into “Black women always”, “I hate how Black men,” “I prefer White men/women because” type generalizations.

     Squidfly, Barack Obama wouldn’t even be the Democratic nominee if he had a White wife! The public’s distate for White women/Black men partnerships aside, his connections to Black Chicago are a major part of his political success. He wouldn’t have those connections without his wife and his former church. Who knows if he would even be a Senator?

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 4:14 pm ¶

110. Squidfly wrote:

     The comments flowing on the thread around Slave atrocities only cite the experiences of Black Women. Many Black male slaves suffered sexual abuse; castration, rape (Buggery was common aboard ship crossings and on land) and of course forced coupling with mothers and sisters.
     Acts of Pedophilia are rarely broached when discussing the Plantocracy, especially the subject of black males.
     If I was a “Brother from Another Planet” and I came across this particular thread, after reading some of the posts, I’d swear I’d come across some strange anti-black male fundamentalist post.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 4:31 pm ¶

111. Lisa J wrote:

     @Squidfly. WHAT??? I don’t get your comment, no one said that slave men were not sexually abused AND since the subject of slave women and slave masters came up in the context of the current mixed racial heritage of most black Americans, it is only appropriate that black woman’s rape and abuse is all we’ve discussed since sexual assault against women CAN result in pregnancy whereas sexual assault against males cannot. I don’t think too many white woman had mixed children with black men in slavery times, possible (I have a white ancestor who did just that according to family lore) but rare, I’m sure. I don’t even get where you can even get that conclusion from. Are you just trying to stir-up some outrage or do you seriously think that? If you do, well… I just don’t know what to say.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 4:55 pm ¶

112. A.D. Nix wrote:

     @ bluesky: Oh, agreed – I’ve definitely heard it. It’s the “always” that I must take issue with. As someone who is finding fingers pointed her way, the “always” definitely doesn’t apply to me. I have no “Tyrone” story to speak of.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 5:10 pm ¶

113. Squidfly wrote:

     111. “I don’t get where you’re coming from.”
     You know Lisa, how many times has the joke been thrown around about the Big Black Guy whose gonna get you in jail? To even make a reference such as that to women and rape would call the dogs of war on ones head. To infer that all BM are rapists is horrendous, yet we seem to have that tag.
     Black male sexual abuse within the context of slavery is rarely discussed, because this country is terrified of that conversation.
     And if you look a little closer at Slave society’s in the West Indies and the US, there were many incidents of Black men and white women, since the “Massah” was off in doing his thing, leaving his wife to her own devices.
     And you’re wrong, if we’re discussing sexual abuse toward Black women then it seems an abrogation to the community not to discuss Black men.
     This is the problem, ones pain is greater than the other. Read the Slave narratives where Black men where left devastated at seeing their wife and children torn from them. We can’t cherry pick what is and what isn’t appropriate.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 6:46 pm ¶

114. Eric Daniels wrote:

     Seattle Slim, We know that Ice- T whores Coco around as his ‘big booty white wife” and he did the same thing with Darlene Ortiz, Ice- T is a colorstruck brotha from jump street there’s no hypocrisy he has always “pimped his women” for album sales and free publicity. The Thickes are trying to be slick about how they are reaching the Black Female auidence and it’s with the same sexism/racism that would got Nelly in trouble for “Tip Drill” they are just more slick about how they do it.

     And Slim, if I were married to a Nicole Kidman and used her in my videos like Robin Thicke or complained about not getting the cover of Vibe magazine because “I have a white wife at home” many of you would say I am and throwing my white wife under the bus like Mizz JJ did for Strong asserting he could not get a major SEC football coaching job because his wife was white.

     The silence amongst some Black Women and their defenders is not surprising because they are cheering Patton for “getting dat white boy” because Black Men hate our guts. You can’t have it both ways, approve of a direct racial appeal to advance your career and then tell me I am getting mad because he’s a white guy that dog won’t hunt Seattle Slim.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 7:51 pm ¶

115. DivergentDana wrote:

     “But it is very important to a lot of men – and it is very important to me. ”

     Hey, I’m pretty visual and superficial myself, so I’m probably going to be one of the less appalled women here, but I’m going to ask you a question (that I myself have pondered, as a visual person): what happens when she gets old? Marriage is supposed to be forever, while conventional attractiveness (male and female) usually lasts only a few decades post-marriage, if that. While your career status continues to rise, if her independent status is solely/largely based on her beauty, yours and hers will be inversely proportionate. How are you going to handle that? How should she?

     “Are White men who date interracially overwhelmingly dating Asians (as opposed to other racial minorities)? ”

     They’re dating Latinas most often, then Asians. Asian females overwhelmingly date white men when they date interracially.

     “If the information is true, there has to be some reason why more White men are dating Asian women than Black women (considering there are nearly 3x as many Blacks as Asians in this country). Can the disparity be explained away with East Asian fetishes? Can the disparity be explained by the stereotype (which Restructure! pointed out) that Asian=feminine and Black=masculine?”

     It is definitely true, and has been for a very long time. In general, white males find Asian women more attractive than black women physically, their stereotypes — including uberfemininity and slenderness/petiteness — seem very, very positive to a certain subset of men, and the ubiquity of such relationships creates a feedback loop where Asian women are seen as more receptive to white men because they are stereotypically very fond of white men/more attractive to them, so they’re pursued by them more often, are as a result, are commonly seen accepting their overtures. Additionally, Asians, as a group are far more similar in SES, education level, and residential patterns to whites than blacks are. Asian cultural differences from whites are also more commonly seen as interesting, sometimes positive/superior, and knowing certain facets of various Asian cultures (mostly Chinese, Japanese and Korean) is widely seen as a mark of the well-traveled, urbane, stylish intellectual, while black/African cultures… notsomuch. For some, dating an Asian woman may imbue unto them a similar cultural cachet. And, to boot, while blacks are concentrated in parts of the country where IRs are less common, Asians are concentrated in parts of the country where it’s more common, and people are more receptive to it in general.

     I’m NOT saying that all AF/WM relationships are borne from a fetish: only two of the possible reasons I gave are “fetishy.” And interest levels don’t hold static across the entire U.S. — an AF in Omaha’s experiences are going to be different than an AF in NYC, and an AF with a non-stereotypical appearance/features/personality is going to get a different reception than one who fits the ideal, as well as AFs who come from cultures considered less “trendy” by outsiders. Oh, I fully welcome correction from ppl with more experience/knowledge than I in these matters.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 9:26 pm ¶

116. DivergentDana wrote:

     Ooops, where I said ” inversely proportionate”, I meant ” negatively correlated”.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 9:30 pm ¶

117. DivergentDana wrote:

     Eric Daniels… is a lightskinned person colorstruck if they’re primarily attracted to people who are of a similar pallor? Is it still self-hate if you’re (rhetorical “you”) attracted to people who look more like yourself as opposed to the average/stereotypical appearance of your racial group? Or is it just about Ice-T’s behavior in particular?

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 9:37 pm ¶

118. Eric Daniels wrote:

     DivergentDana , I hate both Ice- T’s and Young Berg’s racial attitudes on race especially Berg’s dark-skinned v. light skinned “coming out of the water. Just like a few years ago I criticized an Entertainment weekly article with Jay- Z and 50 Cent’s obessions over various light-skinned Black Girls during an interview. Ice- T’s behavior like those brothers I mentioned is appalling in 2009 just like the Good Hair v. Bad Hair battles you would have thought we still were segregated and educationally backwards.

     I date Black Women and never thought dark or light skinned good hair or bad, I like my ladies like Beyonce/Khole /Kardashian/ Somore intelligent, good conversation has a sense of humor and can cook. And that would go for a woman of any race I date

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 9:57 pm ¶

119. Bohemian Writer wrote:

     I am an Ethiopian-Cuban black woman & have experienced dating across the color spectrum. I must admit that it generally is not easy for black women to date but it really depends on the individual. I know that for myself, carrying myself is a huge part of my appeal. I do not behave like the “typical” stereotype of a black woman as I am not the “typical” stereotype.

     At the same time, I am open to dating interracially & support all forms of it (be it black men w/ nonblack women, black women w/ nonblack men).

     The only time I draw the line is when people date interracially for their own racist reasons & verbally abuse the oppposite gender of their own race & are indeed colorstruck.

     Other than that, I support IR’s through & through…It really should be about finding a good man/woman who is not crazy, employed, stable, & Christian (in my case!) REGARDLESS of race.

     Just my $0.02.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 10:35 pm ¶

120. Lisa J wrote:

     Squidfly I still don’t get what black men being raped during slavery or not has to do with modern day racial “hypocracy” or “double standards” about interacial relationships or the issue of blacks being largely mixed in ancestry b/c of black woman having sexual relationships, whether coerced or not. I said it was only appropriate in terms of, the reason why we were discussing it has to do with the issue at hand and nothing remotely touching on issues of black men being sexually abused. I’m not saying it is a bad or wrong topic, I just don’t see how it remotely has anything to do about this topic. And to say that the fact the topic didn’t come up before you mentioned it backed up your theory that the overall discussion was like some sort of right-wing anti-black manfest or however you phrased it seems pretty off base. So black women were raped and it gets mentioned here so we are negating black men getting raped and man bashing, even though men being raped isn’t the topic even remotely? I still don’t get it and like I said, I think you are trying to either derail the topic or do some oppresion olympics. Or maybe you want to do the reverse version of what you accuse the rest of us doing which is to bash black women?
     Oh and by the way, what do you think happened to those white women and black men fooling around while “massahs” back was turned if children resulted? Someone was killed or sold (the black man and or the child) and the white woman had the hell beaten out of her so probably not as much incentive or opportunity, especially since those white woman were often slaves in gilded cages to some extent themselves with little autonomy and some careful policing themselves. Did it happen yes, but with no where near the frequency due to lack of opportunity, and harsher repercussions.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 10:44 pm ¶

121. Trey wrote:

     I think many gay black men feel like the women in your family. Perhaps, as LGBTs of color become more prominent in the public eye, this fact will become more evident.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 10:48 pm ¶

122. Kaonashi wrote:

     DivergentDana: You failed to get the memo that inside every light-skinned Black Women is a succubus just waiting to entrap the weak and blind them with their…light-skin-ded-ness and suck the life out of them! Because as we all know, it’s impossible to date them on other criteria such as compatibility!

     But seriously guys…good grief! Some of us honestly don’t give a damn about who people choose to date. If I see a Black man walking down the street with a non-black woman, I’m simply going to think the same thing that I would think if it was a Black woman.

     And that would be that he is unavailable, PERIOD. The race of the woman he is with doesn’t matter, because it’s not he’s going to dump her to be with you, you know?

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 10:51 pm ¶

123. NancyP wrote:

     @#88 “Vanessa, Michigan” I said that Laura Bush’s attitude was that “I am JUST a librarian”. Inappropriate modesty. Substitute doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, housewife/community activist or volunteer, etc, and the result would be the same – a conscious effort to show that she is a Good Wife because she doesn’t rate her own accomplishments of worth. There’s a certain amount of ostentatious deference to George as husband (not POTUS) – Staying Three Steps Behind the Husband (according to The Rules and conservative Southern Baptist etc doctrine of the submissive wife). I prefer the matter-of-fact approach. Stay in the background, but don’t downplay accomplishments when pressed.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 11:06 pm ¶

124. Squidfly wrote:

     This is the real politics of sex skin privilege

     http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4222155/Student-auctions-off-virginity-for-offers-of-more-than-2.5-million.html

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 11:16 pm ¶

125. EH wrote:

     Ya this topic hits close to home. I’m black and have pretty much exclusively dated non-African-American women since I was in 8th grade. White, African, Asian, etc. If I had a nickle for every dirty look, snicker, comment, lecture, mmmmmmhhhhmmmmm, unsolicited advice, etc I’ve gotten from black women, sometimes for even just *walking* with a non-black woman, I’d be a made man. But for the most part I’ve always tried to ignore it. It’s never been something that’s bothered me too much.

     The double standard however I’ll admit does irritate me. I know too many black women, including females in my family, who loooove to play judge and jury when it comes to BM dating out (ESPECIALLY if the woman is white) and the BM is almost always found guilty. Screw the evidence. Innocent until proven guilty? Nope. Straight to Jail and do not pass GO.

     Flip the tables however and it’s a celebration of the appreciation of black female beauty. Complete with validation by a white man (usually) no less. Which must mean extra beauty points or something.

     It’s really a tired double standard which personally I don’t think helps anyone. Especially BW.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 11:24 pm ¶

126. bluesky wrote:

     DivergentDana,

     Thanks for your response. I wanted to add something about the “feedback loop” you mentioned, but my post was getting too long! I agree with a lot of the points you made.

     However, I also read that White men/Latina women relationships were even less common than White men/Black women relationships. That surprised me, because Latina women are generally seen as higher on the totem pole than Black women. I should have specified that the data was based on interracial marriages; the information would probably be different if you only considered dating patterns. I think your points on socioeconomic status and culture are interesting and could help explain the prevalence of White men/Asian women relationships.

     Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 11:48 pm ¶

127. DivergentDana wrote:

     “You failed to get the memo that inside every light-skinned Black Women is a succubus just waiting to entrap the weak and blind them with their…light-skin-ded-ness and suck the life out of them!”

     Oh. “Note to self…”

     And on #83, I made a typo… I meant “mate choices aren’t seen.”

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 12:32 am ¶

128. DivergentDana wrote:

     “However, I also read that White men/Latina women relationships were even less common than White men/Black women relationships”

     They may have been at the time that the document that you were reading was printed, but now, the WM/LF pairing is the most common IR pairing including WM, surpassing WM/AF.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 12:33 am ¶

129. Celeste wrote:

     @646Hedgie _for_now: I’m curious. What makes you soley interested in only white or Latina hot women? When I was dating I rarely dated black men but it wasn’t because I wasn’t interested in them.

     Regarding black women wanting lighter-skinned black men, I think that went out with Al B. Sure (I’m dating myself, I know). That was a popular thing back in the 80’s-early 90’s but I don’t thinkyou can call it a pattern that applies in the present. Excluding, of couse the ever-present contigency of black people trying to lighten and brighten their family generation by generation. When I did date black men, I preferred the ones who were darker than me.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 8:54 am ¶

130. Ron wrote:

     I definitely think wm who date bw get extra credit points from bw. In a way it is somewhat pitiful and sad but yet understandable. Moreover, the notion that wm who appreciate the beauty of bw makes that wm special serves white supremacy once again.

     It is a wonder that on one hand bw and bm complain about white supremacy but continue to prop up white supremacy.

     I think that Obama and Michelle do exactly the opposite. We all know that Obama is considered a black man. If he was the average brother trying to hail a cab in NYC do you think the driver would pick him up because of his white parentage. No. Do you think metro police would not batter him less because of his white parentage. No. Michelle in her own words said, “Obama could be killed leaving the house as a black man,” so we know what her worldview is on this subject.

     The funny thing about all of this is that I have spent my life debating, arguing and sometimes fighting non-black men (I am including latino, asian, and white men) over the beauty of bw. Some of these wm only liked light skinned bw with curly or long flowing hair because they were not too dark and closer to their white beauty standards.

     A tiny minority only liked dark skinned bw who truly represented blackness.

     The brothers never questioned the beauty of bw but it was always the colorism, hair, nasal fixation issues that came up. I ended many friendships because of some brothers just totally rejected dark skinned kinky haired women. I remember my best friend did not want to own up to his responsibilities because he did not like dark wm but had no trouble having sex with them.

     On the other hand, there is a segment of bw who date non-black men to have children without african features. I know college educated – masters holding bw who search out non-bm to have children with to avoid having to deal with kinky hair and dark skin.

     BM and BW need to learn to appreciate each other and promote each other. The power dynamics in this world is no excuse to turn on each other for the benefit of non-blacks.

     Hollywood’s desire to maintain the status quo should have minimal impact on the dynamics of bm and bw relationships. We can be excused for what we do not know but we cannot be excused for what we do know.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 9:53 am ¶

131. 646Hedgie _for_now wrote:

     @ Celeste:

     It has evolved over time. I grew up being attracted to black women, my first was that way. But I was also a skinny, nerdy kid who did not get any play or respect from women in high school (except when it came to smarts) and that has stuck with me.

     I came to America and my first girlfriend in college was a BAP – half african/half puerto rican, a former model and beautiful girl with serious issues. But she was one of the few african american women I could talk to/relate to (as an african expat, and that had to do with the fact that she had an african father).

     That didn’t work out and afterwards I ended up dating your traditional midwest blonde/redhead and in between there was a lot of play from middle class white and latina girls.

     Never any from black girls and not from the super hot black girls who all saved the play for the athletes at my division – 1 school.

     Which is fine.

     I just find now that I relate best to middle/upper middle class non-black girls. I still don’t know how to talk to african american women and being perfectly honest; I’m not sure that there is a part of me that wants to.

     Why is it only now, after years of schooling, a career on wall street and five years in the gym, that I am suddenly your default – and even worse, that you have some right to tell me who to date. It wasn’t the case when I was a comic loving beanpole with earning potential at my large midwestern university ?

     I realize that I have some of my own issues to work out and I am doing that. But this is where I stand now, as a black man who dates interracially. And let’s be clear, I am still attracted to some black women – and there are attractive women of every hue. But the women I have the most success with are generally white/latina. That is what I have the most success with.

     And yes, I keep my standards regardless of race – I am, unfortunately, that guy who will dump you or not date you seriously if you are not attractive enough. It’s not fair but this is who I am.

     I know what I want and right now anyway, I refuse to settle.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 10:19 am ¶

132. 646Hedgie _for_now wrote:

     Jesus – excuse typo – my first was black (that way)

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 10:19 am ¶

133. lunanoire wrote:

     646Hedgie_for_now’s explanation is an example of my earlier point- “revenge of the nerds.”

     Most people do grow up, and the type of person they preferred as youth is not the same type as their adult preference. If people’s ideas on dating are set in adolescence, what about other types of ideas? I think it’s unfair to characterize a subset of teens as superficial and mostly rule them out for dating forever when most teens are superficial. (this is a generalization, not about any specific commenter)

     Many straight male nerds pined for the hot girls when they were young and seek them out as adults. Some of them seek validation in adulthood from hot women to make up for the lack of validation from girls in their youth. What I do not understand is why some straight male nerds, whether youth or adults, don’t aim for women that would be more likely to be interested in them as human beings (not just $$$) — straight female nerds. It seems to be a better fit for a long-term relationship. It worked out for BHO, and he has a solid partner

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 11:53 am ¶

134. DivergentDana wrote:

     Okay, this is a question that I’ve had for a while now: if you have one or more of the aforementioned biases as a result of having been raised in a culture/society that only accepts a certain kind of attractiveness as valid, how are you supposed to go about “reprogramming” yourself, or are you just supposed to devalue the physical attractiveness of your mates as a deciding factor in who you date to compensate for your bias? If you date folks for whom you hold no torch for as far as physical attraction’s concerned — even if the reason is unfair/shaped by a culture that devalues you and yours — isn’t everyone’s time being wasted in the process?

     And on a somewhat related note, 646Hedgie_for_now… why do you date women casually who you consider “not attractive enough,” for you in the first place? How do you not consider that “lowering your standards”, at least temporarily? And like I said earlier, what will you and your wife do when she gets older/less conventionally attractive and you’re still earning more and more money?

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 11:55 am ¶

135. Celeste wrote:

     “But at this point in time, I like white women. Attractive, in shape and educated white or latina women. ”
     To me that’s a long way from

     “And let’s be clear, I am still attracted to some black women – and there are attractive women of every hue. But the women I have the most success with are generally white/latina. That is what I have the most success with.”

     The former statement implies that there’s something lacking/wrong with women who aren’t white or latina and that seemed a bit off to me. However, the second statement adds much needed context to your previous statement about your dating habits and makes it a bit more understandable. I’ve had more success with non-black men, too. However, I never ruled them out as dating prospects. I hope that you don’t preemptively exclude black women or any women for that matter that you deem hot enough for your tastes.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 11:56 am ¶

136. A.D. Nix wrote:

     @lunanoire: Speaking as a straight female nerd, the straight male nerd is not necessarily any less invested in the idea that women are primarily valuable as objects of sexual satisfaction/fascination than their “non-nerd” counterparts. Of course, some straight male nerds definitely do connect and partner with straight female nerds. But there are plenty aiming for the Girl Who Wouldn’t Give Them The Time of Day in High School.

     @Celeste: You’re charitable.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 12:13 pm ¶

137. 646Hedgie _for_now wrote:

     @ LunaNoire –

     I have nothing against straight female nerds but I am not a social service. I am my own agent – out for my own satisfaction and validation – so I will go out for those relationships/encounters that please me.

     If you are a straight female nerd, who has grown into an aesthetic that I enjoy, likes sex and comic books and work out on a regular basis – then we can talk. But those women are like white rhinos… often discussed in theory but rarely seen in the wild.

     A final point: I like being seen with a beautiful woman, I like the chase, the sex and the respect.

     No one respects you when you’re with an average chick. You’re like every other chump out there. You get a hot girl and there has to be something you are doing right.

     @ DivergentDana – this might sound a little crass but I will explain it this way. I have no trouble dating and bedding 7s and 8s. As a younger man I was perfectly happy as long as I was getting play (and I am an “ethical” player so to speak) but as I get older, work harder, become more “successful” and see the kinds of women my peers (who are mainly white/asian in my business) are dating and starting to marry – I am not as interested.

     I still do what I need to do to meet my needs but I am on the lookout for something special.

     No one judges you on the basis of something casual that both parties were doing to scratch an itch.

     People will judge you and your choices of your significant other – the girl/guy you bring to a company party or dinner says a lot about you and what you are capable of.

     Look, I understand looks fade but that does not mean that I have to go out there and be with someone unattractive. I have seen attractive women in their 50s and the men married to them are still crazy about them.

     However I would be lying to you if I did not say that being wealthy was not an insurance policy – allowing me as a man, to hopefully, punch my ticket in the dating game whenever I want to.

     Finally, let’s be real. BHO picked Michelle for a variety of reasons – mother material, shared ivy league backgrounds, political, legal and urban/Chicago connections. This was not just a nerd meets nerd love story. If he was a good looking soul brotha’ and not the first black editor of the HLR, I doubt he would have gotten a first date.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 12:37 pm ¶

138. DivergentDana wrote:

     “What I do not understand is why some straight male nerds, whether youth or adults, don’t aim for women that would be more likely to be interested in them as human beings (not just $$$) — straight female nerds.”

     I think that they do, usually, or would if they had the opportunity… there’s just a very vocal minority that will settle for nothing less than a Maxim/King pinup. These men usually either (in no particular order) a) come up very short and get bitter about it b) date a string of women who they consider less than they deserve physically (I’ve seen this multiple times), c) “grow out of it” d) actually get the money and the opportunity to make their fantasy scenario possible, or e) accept that they want a more attractive mate then they can get but will settle for nothing less, but don’t become bitter… they just stay perpetually single. Too many people act as if it’s a given that the nerd gets the money — and therefore, the hottie — in the end, when that’s not always the case.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 12:53 pm ¶

139. Celeste wrote:

     I accept that some men are *very* concerned with maxing out in the looks department. I don’t have the slightest inclination to trying to move that glacier. If they max out on looks to the exclusion of all the other qualities that make a good mate, then best of luck to them. I have a more respect for men that try to max out as far as looks *and* accomplishment goes, a la Michelle.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 1:05 pm ¶

140. blksista wrote:

     What I have hardly ever seen or heard about are white men’s feelings about their dark-skinned girlfriends or wives or children. I hardly ever hear about them expressing what that love is all about or admitting what made them embrace what is supposedly the nadir of beauty in American culture.

     Your move, Carmen.

     Mod Note – The author of the piece is named Ryan. The editrix of this blog is named Latoya. If you are looking for Carmen, go to http://www.carmenvankerckhove.com or http://www.newdemorgraphic.com. – LDP

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 3:54 pm ¶

141. 646Hedgie _for_now wrote:

     @DivergentDana, @Celeste

     Look, I get it.

     Women need to say whatever lets them sleep at night. And a lot of people will not be honest with themselves or each other and that is fine. But I am my own agent, and as a result of that, I need to work towards the things that please me.

     You and Ryan – as women who need to feel attractive – see BHO as someone to be commended for marrying an accomplished, black woman.

     I see a man who always knew that he wanted to be President of the United States, and knew there was no way that would ever happen with a white/latina/asian wife or as a single man or as a childless couple. He saw his goal and took the necessary steps to get there.

     My goals and my necessary steps are very different, and I will go for what I want.

     But like I said, whatever keeps you happy.

     Just don’t forget the double standard while you’re at it….

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 4:01 pm ¶

142. A.D. Nix wrote:

     @ 646Hedgie _for_now :”I see a man who always knew that he wanted to be President of the United States, and knew there was no way that would ever happen with a white/latina/asian wife or as a single man or as a childless couple. He saw his goal and took the necessary steps to get there.”

     Meaning . . . what? That he only opted to marry a black woman because he wanted to be president some day? This is, of course, assuming that he married Michelle only after ruling out “a white/latina/asian wife” or single-dom and not that he somehow, some way managed to choose her (her?!) while considering the rainbow of available options.

     You are projecting your own biases and motivations onto the President elect rather than allowing that he may, god save us, think in ways you do not.

     Sounds like some men need to “say whatever lets them sleep at night” too – though I would use “think” rather than “say” there.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 4:26 pm ¶

143. Candi wrote:

     Wow! This is a hot topic!

     First of all look at the numbers. 10% of the black male population is incarcerated as opposed to 1% of white males. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0881455.html

     Black male unemployment is about 51% compared to just 18% for white males and this is just based on a study done in Milwaukee.
     http://www4.uwm.edu/ced/publications/black_joblessness07.pdf

     “Medgar Evers College, for example, is 92 percent black. Only 23 percent of those black students are men. At York College, which is 62 percent black, only 29 percent of black students are men.”
     http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/12/05/blackmale

     I could go on and on with the disparities between black and white men, but the point is…

     For the most part black women often end up with white men because the majority of black men end up in the traps set for them by society. Do black men have to fall for these traps. NO. But often they do.

     Coming from the south it is not uncommon for a black woman to chose a white man to “love” out of survival. On the other hand it is not uncommon for a black man to chose a white woman to “love” out of passive agressive behavior towards his oppressor.

     Because we have been so far removed from the chains of slavery it is easy to ignore the lingering psychological effects that slavery will have on us until the end of this age and possibly into others.

     Listen to this wonderful converstion between Neely Fuller(race expert) and a white woman who loves black men. She realizes in this two part video that eventhough she LOVES black people she has still been practicing racism…Interesting.

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT3kvoXvFwM&feature=related

     I am not against interracial dating, I just think that going into these relationships lightly is quite dangerous if both parties are not actively trying to produce justice.

     What was humanly meant to be pure love between two people is not and must take effort to be made pure.

     It is amazing how we like to disregard the power of history when it comes to race, yet all of our wars today are a result of centuries of unresolved issues. This lingering effect also holds true for the relationships between the black woman and the white man or the white woman and the black man.

     Even the most pure love between the races will be tainted with the history and present issues of racism. The best interracial relationships I have seen are the ones that embrace the social inequalites between them, rather than acting like love has blotted out the reality.

     Black women are frustrated, because of what has happened to their men, therefore they try hard to be the best they can be to help them. Black men have long run from their black female counterparts, because it gives them a false sense of power that they too can win the bed of his white oppessor’s woman.

     Until racism is replaced with justice no amount of love can change these facts. The facts can be ignored, played down, dressed up, but NEVER can love be real between a slave and his oppressor until the oppressor’s offsprings refuse to reap the rewards of their slave-mastering fathers.

     Thank you beautiful ones,

     Candi Taylor-Jeter

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 4:42 pm ¶

144. Anonymous wrote:

     I agree with most of the posts about have interracial relationships are presented in the media and viewed in society.. and have tried to ignore the bickering between the rest, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Instead of adding more fuel to either fire I just want to add that we are definitely moving away from A LOT of the prejudices of yesteryear as we move away from the domination of white male rule and incorporate persons of color and females at a more constant level.. my only fear is.. will white men become less tolerant of this because they feel they are losing too much of their power??

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 4:47 pm ¶

145. TierList E wrote:

     @Divergent Dana a bit back

     I’ve been thinking about this as well. Attraction is virtually impossible to force change in a person, and I personally believe a majority of race-based attraction comes with racial baggage that is going to cause the person to look down on those who fall outside of their race preference, so asking people to date against those preference is an act of futility for the doer and cruel for the person being “tolerated”.

     The act of deprogramming I think needs to be taught not for the person directly, but to stop them from passing on these biases unchecked to future generations and to be more open to accepting more forms of beauty shown in society/media, knowing that it will create more tolerance.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 5:14 pm ¶

146. blackinisolation wrote:

     i was wondering whether Obama chose a black woman exactly because he was raised by a white woman who had herself made the choice of a man of colour as her partner, and therefore probably was ready to challenge society racist stereotypes….
     and having to bring up a black child as a white single parent she might have had to be the one to help him grow a positive strong black identity, and make him proud of who he was, going against the racism present also in the black comunity that makes some black people opt for the “lighter shade of black”…..
     i fear for my black daughters any white man who might go for them just for fancying a bit of “exotic”…..
     we live in a racial isolated environment in a racist country in europe, where everybody is white, a part from my two kids…
     as with the grandma of the writer, here is like in the USA in the ’50s ,where no young (white) boy would dare date a black girl….they’re too ashamed of peer judgement….
     while older white men, of the sex tourist variety, are happy to do so…..for deeply racist reason…..
     i just pray my daughters will be valued for the blackness of their beauty….and i doubt that will be a white man who will do….

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 5:52 pm ¶

147. DivergentDana wrote:

     “You and Ryan – as women who need to feel attractive – see BHO as someone to be commended for marrying an accomplished, black woman.”

     Um, ah… so you know… my last post was addressing someone else entirely, 646_Hedgie_for_now. I didn’t even reply to your reply to me… in short — what did I do? I definitely didn’t say that I thought that he was “to be commended”… I only remember citing my mother’s feelings on the matter. But both you and I know Obama could’ve still recieved his blackness points with a more conventionally attractive/less accomplished black wife, if that’s who he really wanted. The prospect of a black first lady of any shade is all it would’ve taken to appease the black love proponents.

     “i just pray my daughters will be valued for the blackness of their beauty….and i doubt that will be a white man who will do….”

     Then if you feel this way… why are you raising your kids in a mostly-white part of Europe, where they’re likely to be raised to find whites particularly compatible and attractive, and where the prospective partners for them are extremely likely to be white, scarce on the ground, or both?

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 7:12 pm ¶

148. Peter wrote:

     I am tired of white supremacy and double standards controlling who I can date and who I cannot. White folks have more freedom regarding who they want to date and who they don’t. Many white males since the Vietnam-era decide to date Asian, Asian American women and it is frowned upon to for a black man to date/marry to a white woman. Fairness, equality; all men are created equal my ass. The Constitution is supposed to protect my personal rights and yet the double standard lives and breathes its lie in our Jim Crow Jr. land. I’d rather be the iconoclast and live my life and take my freedom than be enslaved by white supremacy/privilege/domination.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 8:11 pm ¶

149. bdsista wrote:

     646_hedgie, your rationale based upon your rejection earlier in life, is so sad and is the same excuse Clarence Thomas and Dennis Rodman. Your anger and rejection of Black women is palpable by the sarcasm and tone of your posts. Also, I find it difficult that you cannot find any Black women that are “HOT”. To be honest, women of other races partially find you attractive because of you $$$ and you probably treat them better (subconsciously) than you do BW. What I seriously recommend is that you get some therapy. You are telling yourself you are happy, but to reject women of your own race because (some) of them rejected you in high school or college is pathological. You may not think so, but you are breaking your Mother’s heart. You can be a playa for now, but when you eventually bring that girl home is she going to love and respect your Mother and the other women in your family?
     Deeper relationships mean its not all about you.
     Back to the topic
     I too have the double standard, but its because I have friends which I have mentioned before who are attractive, professional, etc. who are now 50 and will never have children unless they adopt and have never been married and it’s like a cruel joke has been played on my sisterfriends, who did all the right things. They went to school, got good grades, respected their parents, had strong faith, engage in public service and inexplicably have not found a BM who values them. One of them is biracial whose father is black and prefers BM, and she is beautiful and still cannot find a man who I think is worthy of her or can commit.
     They are some of the most intelligent, worthy women Iknow, and I am now telling them to seek IR relationships so they are not faced with the legacy of living alone their entire lives. This is what professional BW are facing, so when they see a man on their level with a WW, do they get mad? Damn skippy, especially if the WW is less accomplished. Even if they have a man, they are mad for their friends who don’t. What do I like about Black men? I can talk about race when and where I want and I don’t have to worry about any comments, I can have my hair look like damn with or without the weave, wig whatever and he still thinks I look good. He can have a conversation with any of my relatives and understand all those old time colloquialisms and knows how to show respect. He can talk man to man with my 81 year old father and honor him for all he has lived through in America and want to spend time with him. He doesn’t question me when I tell him about all the Greek, HBCU, Church, J &J, Links and other functions we have to attend, he goes and has a good time. He knows he may have to help me feel beautiful when I have had a bad day at the mall, bombarded with pictures of white women and clothes that don’t fit my body or my butt and I come home feeling fat and like the other. He likes Tyler Perry movies, but like me wishes Black men could make movies without wearing dresses. He will cry sometime this weekend with me during the Inauguration and sense the joy of our ancestors looking down upon us when history is made.

     Posted 13 Jan 2009 at 11:45 pm ¶

150. Dirge wrote:

     @bdsista
     “did all the right things. They went to school, got good grades, respected their parents, had strong faith, engage in public service and inexplicably have not found a BM who values them”

     Maybe all your friends did the “right things” because they were the right things to do period, irregardless if it scores them a BM or not. I thought one got an education for purposes of self-development and the career credientals.
     As far as I’m concerned, a women in college to obtain a Ms. is wasting space. You’d probably find more success being a showgirl on a cruise ship.
     No one is “owed” a good spouse no matter how “worthy” they think they are.
     Have u ever considered that your “accomplishments” may not necessarily make you attractive in the sight of a man? An advanced degree from a big time Uni looks good to a potential employer, but hardly a potential mate.(at least from a mans perspective) Such accomplishments do not make you a good mate.
     And, does not the BM have to right to go after what fulfills him? Does he owe it to all black women to be with a black woman? No more than a black woman owes it to black men to be with a black man.
     THe fact is, finding someone to love who loves you back is not easy for anyone, black, white, asian, latin, male, female, gay, trans, straight, cat or dog.
     For someone to limit their options out of some sense of pity or “solidarity” is risking being alone forever. And, yes, its a myth that its easy for a successful BM, at least in terms of finding someone compatible who can appreciate you and with whom one can build something real. Getting a date/laid is easy, finding a solid mate is not. Sorry, all “successful” black women DO NOT make for good mates. Its pure egoism to think of yourself as a great catch so more deserving than others and judge the relationships of others without knowing their story. (YOU KNOW, the whole, “why is he with her, Im definitely more attractive and accomplished than her.)And even though black women do outnumber black men, they are still scarce among the educated ranks. I’m in graduate school right now and I’ll tell u, there is a dearth of blacks, period, male or female. And to find someone who may one day become my spouse among such a small pool is unlikely.
     One part of the double standard is fair: BW should feel no pressure to limit themselves to BM however, they should not use the “lowest on the totem” and “scarcity” axioms as moralistic trumps to justify behavior, as if interracial dating for BW is somehow liberating and righteous survivalism, while BM who engage in the practice are irresponsible, shallow and heartless. It bespeaks a lack of empathy that I for one do not find endearing in a future mate.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 12:44 am ¶

151. Dirge wrote:

     You’d probably find more success being a showgirl on a cruise ship.”

     BTW, I meant by this comment that one would probably have better chances scoring a professional, accomplished man by this method rather than by going to University.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 12:47 am ¶

152. 646Hedgie _for_now wrote:

     A few blatantly honest rejoinders.

     So bdsista, let me get this straight.

     As a young man, I am too nerdy to get dates from a certain subset of the population. I ignore said subset, focus on my strengths and make myself an acceptable mate. Now members of said subset feel free to criticize my dating choices and think guilting me into dating them will be a more positive outcome.

     It would be hilarious if the sentiment and sense of entitlement weren”t so prevalent.

     So as a young man, a certain pool rejects me and I am accept it; because only women have agency in the dating arena. And now as an older man, I am supposed to run back to this same pool that I (for the most part) have nothing in common with – again because only women have agency in the dating/mating game?

     It does not work that way.

     You want more successful black mento date inwards, then get your attractive daughters to date them in high school and college, let them become first wife material and get their hooks into young smart black boys early.

     If you’re not giving that advice or living it yourself, you really don’t have much of substance to say to me.

     I don’t owe you, my mother or anyone else the right to determine my dating/mating life.

     I accept that there are issues on my part from the past but appealing to some form of racial solidarity that was clearly not there when my dating attitudes were being formed is a flawed argument.

     Another point of contention – all of the cultural markers you mentioned – Black Greek Organizations, HBCUs and Church are not icons of my past.

     I am an agnostic independent who went to a large university in the midwest, who cannot stand Tyler Perry and hopes he comes out of the closet already.

     As you can see, we don’t have much in common.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 1:00 am ¶

153. Phil C. wrote:

     I think there is an interracial relationship double standard. If you look around by far the most common interracial relationship pattern is:

     Whites with Asians, particularly WM with AW that far surpasses any other interracial relationship pairing by a long shot.

     This is more that by chance. I would suggest this is due to the interaction of racism, classism and sexism (i.e., white (male) privilege and white standard of beauty reinforced by the mainstream media (for example, I’ve been in non western countries where I’ve seen posters of Hollywood stars, white women or men, on walls in people’s houses)

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 11:18 am ¶

154. barbara wrote:

     Why are we having the discussion of what complexion the soon to be First Lady of the United States is? Do Caucasian people discuss who they would rather see blondes or brunettes with? This whole “light skinned,dark skinned” debate shows how far we have NOT come within our own race. Yes Barack Obama is blessed to have a beautiful, articulate, intelligent woman such as Michelle. Are my sisters telling me that you would not have voted for him if Michelle was white or any other race? Consider this, when blacks were slaved, it didn’t matter if you were light or dark, you were still a slave whether in the house or on the field. If I fall in love with a white man today that makes me no less black and if my brother falls in love with a white woman today that makes him no less black. Until we heal the skin color divide within our own race, how can we really expect for the race divide to be healed within our country?

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 11:34 am ¶

155. barbara wrote:

     Comparing skin colors of women within the same race always brings to mind the judges at the dog shows comparing the coats of animals. Not only is it racism within the race, it is quite sexist as well.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 11:37 am ¶

156. Evelyn wrote:

     When one is truly in love with that special some one there is no one else in the room. color/ race and differences are not in the room either. Moses of the bible was married to a black woman along with a lot of others in the bible check out the tribes. It does my heart good to see A black man with a black woman. especially our president this may send to the right black brother that do not find a black woman as beautiful. I am black woman in love with a “man” who for some reason was born white. I have loved him for the past 38 years and have not had the time to allow the view of others to cause conflict in our marriage, because he and I have been about the business of our life which is very happy and always so very full of love for each other and our family. I have had black women come up to me and ask if it is OK if they ask me a question. They always say that it is personal if I don’t mind? they ask me how do you do it? How do i handle a mixed married. I tell them I don’t handle it at all. this is my husband my partner for life. That there is nothing to handle. first off I do not live inside any ones box. God has given freely to me every thing in my life and this is how i love freely with my whole heart and so does my husband and family. I am happy in this life that has so freely been given to me for just a short period of time and me and mine live it fully and happy. I have never cared about. All we need is love and that is what Mr & Mrs President elect have. Did I plan to marry a White man. the thought never crossed my mind.
     please start loving and living before you are in your 70s death is setting and it is all over with. white black red brown like flowers live and keep your face toward the light of this life and enjoy your life and who you share it with. love love love love. it really takes two to according to GOD plan to get through this some times harsh life. be healthy and love your wife/husband. life is not a crayon box life is to be lives and not alone. call your mate and tell them that you love them. send your mate some flowers to refresh and move on.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 1:16 pm ¶

157. SoulSnax wrote:

     Comparing skin colors of anyone for the purpose of vilifying dark and praising light is Uncle Tom behavior at its very core. Sadly, this is not just the domain of African-Americans, West Indians or Africans. It is also the folly of my own Filipino people, the biggest Uncle Toms in Asia: http://ricedaddies.blogspot.com/2008/09/philippines-is-nation-full-of-uncle.html

     On another note, and more along the lines of this blog post, I can totally relate with your cousin’s sentiment that “I guess we just love men who really love Black women.” By the same token, I really admire women of any race who love Asian men, because such women are perceived to be rare. They’re so rare, that I wish I could give a medal to every smart, beautiful woman of any race who isn’t too shallow to be with an Asian guy.

     Everyone knows that most western women (including Asian-American women), if they are honest, will tell you that Asian men are no where near the top of their list of potential partners. My wife’s Uncle Tom cousin, who was born in the Philippines and raised in Chicago, is the perfect example. She isn’t shy about her strong disdain for Asian men …except for one friend of mine. I caught her saying once that “he’s guapo… for a Filipino guy.”

     Then again, we’re talking about an uneducated, qhasi-literate woman who watches E! and reads celebrity magazines and PerezHilton all day. My own shallow sister is the same way. What else could they have developed a preference for, except for guys who look like Tom Cruise, Tom Welling, Mark Wahlberg, Jordan Knight, etc…

     My wife, on the other hand, could have had any white guy she wanted. She is a gorgeous Filipina who is intelligent, sexy and passionate. But she doesn’t give a damn about Tom Cruise, because Tom Cruise doesn’t look like me. She picked me, and even had my baby, and comes home to me every day. She deserves a medal.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 2:04 pm ¶

158. DivergentDana wrote:

     “Why are we having the discussion of what complexion the soon to be First Lady of the United States is? Do Caucasian people discuss who they would rather see blondes or brunettes with?”

     Because to some women, it matters. Not me, but to other women, and there’s a reason that it matters — a reason that’s worth addressing. And I imagine that they (Caucasians) very well may, despite the fact that hair color is much more malleable according to the cultural standard of the minute and the history isn’t as fraught with pain and controversy. You can’t seriously suggest that there’s no status/attractiveness heirarchy around female hair color/texture among whites and that there’s no ties to intra-racial ethnicity — it’s not as strong as colorism and it’s more varied when it comes to who subscribes to it, but it’s definitely there.*

     *Not that there’s not something inherently troubling about using actual or percieved white behavior as the unquestioned standard for normalcy/appropriateness.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 4:44 pm ¶

159. keith wrote:

     It appears to be a double standard when it comes to black woman wanting to see black men in power with darker skinned woman.
     In african american culture and history, not only the dark skinned woman was seen as unatractive, the dark skinned man was also looked apon the same way.
     From an historicial perspective it seems more like a black woman will respect a black man who love’s dark skinned woman.
     It’s has been a problem in the black comunity for a while now.
     So when you talk about race in some cases, it’s not just about being black, the shade of color makes a difference on how you are treated….GOOD… SUBJECT….TODAY.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 6:01 pm ¶

160. EH wrote:

     Why is it so many women will bring up a BM mother or sister when they say they don’t go for black women?

     I love my sister and my mother but I’m sure as hell not interested in dating them. I have pretty simple criteria for women I’m NOT interested in dating. Unfortunately the majority of African-American women fit that criteria to at least some extent. I’ve never felt any guilt over it. But it became pretty obvious to me years ago that when it came to dating/marriage the chances of my partner being an African-American female was extremely slim. Almost 10 years later that’s pretty much proven to be the case.

     I’ve never felt I owe black women anything just like I never felt black women owed me anything back when I was younger and many of them just were not interested (other women were however). So maybe it didn’t leave me all that bitter because I still had plenty of options.

     I just find it irritating how after not really interacting with black women much since HS, and not being the type of black kid many were interested in dating at the time (my black friends and fellow black students back in the day who played basketball, listened to hip-hop, spoke ebonics, etc on the other hand were a different story. Even with the “smart” black girls in my schools), now that Im working on my Master’s means I’m somehow now in the wrong for being in relationships with non-African-American women? That’s ridiculous.

     It’s like some BW expect successful or “good black men” (I hate that term) to sit around and wait for them to be receptive and accept us for who we are and not what pop culture says what BM should be. I hope I don’t sound like I’m generalizing but I’ve experienced this and seen it way too frequently. And I know I’ve heard many other educated black men who pretty much date non-black exclusively say they’ve experienced the same thing. I’m not sure why a lot of BW don’t notice this. Or at least can’t seem to accept that it’s not exactly uncommon and BM aren’t pulling these situations out of our asses.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 6:36 pm ¶

161. Michelle wrote:

     Sometimes you are just human. And Black women, with our hypocrisy, double standard and yes, need to be validated by others as beautiful, are no exception. Sometimes you are ruled by very human emotions and pathologies. Sometimes you just get your feelings hurt by being considered ugly. Ugly is a bad word in our society. Do you honestly expect a child who has been called ugly all of her life to grow up and just magically think “Of course I am beautiful”? No! Taken in isolation, anybody can see the inherent abusive in telling a child that she is ugly, and understand the low self esteem that she would have as a result. As a Black woman, I can tell you that growing up in this society, the daily assaults on your psyche are nothing short of abuse. Almost all of us make it out alive, but we still carrying the scars and can’t help but feel triumphant whenever we see our image being exalted. Should we be free from the past? Yes. Should we be complete with everything that happened to us? Yes. Should we be at a point where we don’t care about who dates who and why? Yes. We should be a lot of things. But we are human.

     And to the point up above about Black woman who did the right things. I know what you mean. The implicit end of the story is that you will find someone to live your life with. It doesn’t seem that hard. You look around at your white counterparts and they are getting married and having children. And none of us went to school trying to get that MRS degree. We went because we wanted a great education. But, nobody ever told us that we wouldn’t ever get married, be mothers and grandmothers. The story we were told was that this was a pathway to having a life that you love, including a husband and children. That is not our fault. Truthfully it isn’t even the fault of those who told us that story. But many of us are realizing that it is just that, a story.

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 6:50 pm ¶

162. GeeLennox wrote:

     Am I the only woman sensing some arrogance in some of these comments?

     It’s as if some commenters wanted to write
     ” Why can’t you bitter Black women leave me alone? Stop trying to force me to want you Negresses”

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 8:10 pm ¶

163. lunanoire wrote:

     I think cultural changes over the years play a role:

     1. Some aspects of youth culture are not as racially separated as before, so a BM with (insert non typical interest) as a hobby likely had it rough growing up, but today’s young and relatively young adults may have the same interests. Skater culture is no longer seen as exclusively white compared to 10+ years ago. The crowds at stores like Urban Outfitters include black kids who are not viewed as whitewashed.

     2. The messages sent to today’s BW when they were kids were based in the road to success that their forebears knew of. Today, the road to school, job, house, husband, kids, etc. has changed somewhat. It’s a less extreme version of learning about technology from your parents and grandparents as a child before the internet: adults are dealing w/ issues that their ancestors never had to at their age in the same way (insert scary stats about black community). Also, some BW who behave this way were told to stay away from boys in high school to avoid teen pregnancy.

     Anecdotally, I understand that a feedback loop can be powerful, whether positive or negative. Perhaps that means that the odds of a black couple meeting or attending a (non-stereotypical event) together is low.

     The symbolism of Michelle Obama’s skin tone is great to me because of the unfortunate idea that black/dark women are ok to have sex with, but not to marry/be seen publicly with/date. I wonder how much of this idea contributes to single parent households (of course the woman had a choice too).

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 8:26 pm ¶

164. Kaonashi wrote:

     By the same token, I really admire women of any race who love Asian men, because such women are perceived to be rare. They’re so rare, that I wish I could give a medal to every smart, beautiful woman of any race who isn’t too shallow to be with an Asian guy.

     Really? Because based on a lot of conversations I’ve had with girlfriends in the past nothing could be further from the truth. But that’s a discussion that would probably be better for another thread. But back on topic here…

     I personally as a black woman, don’t mind BM/WF relationships much and when I see such couples if I catch their eyes, I try to smile, although some will automatically avoid me, probably expecting the evil eye.

     I’ve seen this before as well (recently at a supermarket. Despite being there with my BF this guy was “convinced” that we were following him and his white girlfriend around from aisle to aisle. WTF? We were SHOPPING, and other than the usual “LOL, here’s this person again” mental note most people make in the supermarket we weren’t paying attention to them!) and I have to admit, it really makes me feel terrible when I see a guy switch over into “defense” mode– and I know it’s because they expect me to be an asshole.

     I cannot understand the thought process behind anyone who sees an IR couple of any combination and decides that it’s their job to harass them. What do the harassers expect to accomplish? Seriously, what is the point?

     Posted 14 Jan 2009 at 9:29 pm ¶

165. jaye wrote:

     @ #154 Barabara:

     Um, yeah, white people talk about who they would rather see blonds or brunettes with. Do you ever watch tv or read a magazine? It is apparently a very serious topic among Caucasian media given the number of times I’ve seen articles on it…the differences between brunettes and blondes and redheads. Have you walked down the aisle of your supermarket…there are about a million shades of blond hair coloring, compare that to any other shade. I was an adult before I realized how many white women dye their hair blond…apparently it is directly related to their attractiveness and desirability quotient. Where do you think the rest of us got the idea from?

     Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 1:44 am ¶

166. jaye wrote:

     @SoulSnax: “I wish I could give a medal to every smart, beautiful woman of any race who isn’t too shallow to be with an Asian guy.”

     I appreciate what you’re saying…but it makes me sad that you think that a woman going out with an Asian guy is like doing charity work or something. There are a lot of hot Asian guys, just like there are a lot of hot dark-skinned women. Light-skinned black women in general used to be considered not “beautiful” enough, simply by virtue of them being black…now on tv and movies, they are the star of the show. Does that mean that they became more beautiful and attractive in the last 100 years? No, they’ve always been gorgeous…they just weren’t perceived that way in the racial hierarchy. Asian women used to be considered unsuitable for the dating pool 50 years ago…too different, ethnic, strange, other. Now, they’re considered the epitome of femininity…what changed about their attractiveness during that time? Nothing…people challenged society’s lies and stupidity, and the idea that there is some sort of racial hierarchy of attractiveness. Michelle Obama has come at a time when we’re challenging even more of those assumptions…the idea that darker skinned black women aren’t pretty. They obviously are pretty, beautiful, gorgeous…but in the same way that Asian women were unacceptable 50 years ago, dark-skinned women still have that idea around them…which is why a lot of black men go for the lighter-skinned black women, because they are considered socially desirable and acceptable, and NOT because of anything that it says about their intrinsic attractiveness.

     Barack does not deserve a medal for dating Michelle Obama…Michelle is freakin hot. But what he represents is a challenge to the social lies about who is and isn’t considered attractive and beautiful. And the same thing can be said about Asian guys…believe it or not, a lot of them are really attractive. Just because society lies about their perceived attractiveness, doesn’t change that fact. And some women are just stronger than the catty comments from their friends, and recognize that they’re just dating a really cute guy …and they’re just waiting for the rest of the world to come around. Exactly the way the world is beginning to come around to Barack and Michelle Obama’s reality.

     And of course, the whole idea of even valuing women according to physical attributes is another article altogether…not to mention that it is inclusion into mainstream white media that still seems to be the standard for what is beautiful…but, y’know, baby steps…

     Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 1:51 am ¶

167. Noir72 wrote:

     Evelyn # 156

     That’s a fantastic and healthy viewpoint, however, if a black man in an IR were to convey that sentiment, he’d still be considered a traitor or a sellout.

     Another question, why is it that people feel a need to analyze WHY a particular IR couple are together?

     “She’s only with him for money…. he’s only with her for status…. she wants kids with good hair… he has a fetish of some kind… etc”

     Why is it never because boy met girl, girl met boy and they clicked? Moreover, what would said analysis accomplish? And why is is anyone else’s business?

     So many questions, so little time… I guees the people who found love and living it realize the latter.

     Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 1:42 pm ¶

168. ellen wrote:

     “Do white guys talk crap about white women and vice versa when they date another ethnicity?”

     White guys DEFINITELY talk crap about White women who are dating/married to/talking to/interested in Black men. My dad was TERRIFIED of what his friends would say about me when he met a Black boyfriend of mine in college. Actually he was afraid of what the entire small, midwestern town would say. He really didn’t have a problem with the guy, but he definitely had a problem with the idea of his daughter dating a man that would cause all of his friends and family to consider her a slut.

     Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 6:21 pm ¶

169. Als wrote:

     I think some people are too concerned with colour and who’s a darker shade or who’s lighter. What about Love?

     Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 6:55 pm ¶

170. texascowgirl wrote:

     I don’t think it’s so much Michelle Obama’s skin tone, it’s that she is unambiguosly black. Unlike Barack Michelle didn’t have a white parent or exotic upbringing to diffuse any racial fears. Michelle grew up on the South Side of Chicago, she is the decendent of slaves and this election actually proved how a woman of her background and appearance (however attractive) could be turned into a liability for her husband. Michelle got the “angry black person” treatement that Barack couldn’t have thrown at him. She was turned into the scary black characature that so many white people fear. It was like “Barack’s ok, gut that wife of his….”. This is what the “trophy wife ” concept is about. It’s not just about looking a certain way, it’s also about the woman who is seen and not heard. And an unforgivably black woman, like Michelle was going to be heard as well as seen. I loved Michelle instantly, but a knew being outspoken and having no visible caucasian features was going to make her a target eventually. It may not seem like a brave thing to do for Barack to run for the presidency with a wife like Michelle, but it was. We may think she’s fabulous, but this election proved how having a woman like Michelle at his side would be turned into a liability for a black man trying to climb the ladder even if he’s just married to the woman he loves and loves him back. I don’t think if Michelle looked like Vanessa Williams or Alicia Keyes there would have been accusations of a “whitey” tape and being a closet black supremacist. With all that makes her an asset, being a dark-skinned, unmistakably and proud black woman was turned into a liability.

     Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 2:56 am ¶

171. DMoon wrote:

     I agree with texascowgirl. Recall how many Republicans/conservatives were clamoring for Colin Powell to run for president. His wife Alma is very light with some causcoid features and there is nothing that is scary about her. If Colin Powell ran it is certain that he would have been given a wide berth and his wife would not be attacked to the extent like Michelle. Clarence Thomas wouldn’t have had any problems eithr (sans Anita Hill) in regards to his wife who was White.

     Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 1:18 pm ¶

172. DivergentDana wrote:

     “I think some people are too concerned with colour and who’s a darker shade or who’s lighter. What about Love?”

     Love is important. Love is great. But it’s not blind to physical appearance at all. Beauty is racialized, and as long as love is somewhat dependent on/correlated with/influenced by perceptions of beauty, even it isn’t above analysis. I am incapable of believing that Asian men and black women are just naturally less lovable/loving than everyone else, so… there must be something afoot, because they seem to be loved less.

     Posted 16 Jan 2009 at 7:20 pm ¶

173. Squidfly wrote:

     Lisa.
     And your point is?

     Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 4:31 pm ¶

174. Lisa J wrote:

     @squidfly, my point is I don’t understand what any of your statements have to do with the conversation.

     Posted 21 Jan 2009 at 6:58 pm ¶

175. pololly wrote:

     Squidfly is flame and subtle misogynist flame as well. Ignore and keep up the good work.

     Posted 22 Jan 2009 at 4:48 pm ¶

176. Adrianna wrote:

     It is sad that some black women base their self worth on the men that find them attractive. Remember the whole Drebra Dickerson article at salon on the wedding crasher!
     I want to be loved for who I am not what I look like or my skin color. As for black men who love only white women or light skin black women. They are everywhere just like black women who only love white men and light skin men. In my country some people consider that trading up
     ( bettering the race).In Haiti some light skin people marry other light skin people and only befriend other light skin people so the “dark “blood don‘t “contaminate” the pool of lightness! Now that I’m older and back in the country I attract lot’s of attention( I hate it cause it’s lot of sexual harassment and lot’s of older gentleman looking for an escort) , but when I was in school and I was surrounded by my light skin friend or brown skinned friend with “good hair” I ceased to exist Boys did not notice ( this also happens to my male cousins, girls just don’t notice ). Yes dark-skinned black women are at the bottom of the totem pole. But It think it’s prevalent in all society. My Indian said that her Indian boyfriend would have not gotten with her if she was darker. And her dark Indian male friend have told her how racist other Indians are towards him. It shows all that whether you are men or women Dark= bad all around the world

     Now if the men is wealthy I think the dynamic changes , but not for women
     Lets not forget just because he likes you doesn’t mean he is a great human being, When I choose a partner I’m not going to like him because of his skin color , I’m gonna love him cause he is a generous, loving, passionate humanist. As for the supposed unattractiveness of Asian male that always baffles me? Just like my supposed unattractiveness as a black women baffles me. Then Again I don’t let people define me anymore I’m grown so I don’t care. It is best summed up by
     Can’t we just all be beautiful regardless of how dark or light our skins are and the features we have!
     the amazing AJ Plaid in her blog post !

     http://thecruelsecretary.blogspot.com/2008/11/eartha-janets-mammaries-and-michelle.html

     Another amazing women like Michelle Obama in a public position of power that defines the awesomeness of black women is Governor General Michealle Jean. Then again I ‘m biased in my admiration of her cause she a fellow Haitian woman. Women in general needs Powerful role
     models that looks like us or not , because of all the sexism in our societies
     166 @jaye
     Well put well said

     162 @GeeLennox
     LMAOF!

     Posted 24 Jan 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶

177. Think wrote:

     Michelle and I are the same complexion. I’ve had people call me “dark” and/or “brown” but it all means the same thing. The bottom line is, you’re not light w/ “good hair” and semi-european facial/structual features.
     In my teenage years Black/African American boys wanted nothing to do with me. I knew I wasn’t unattractive because boys of other races and nationalities were constantly trying to get my attention. I knew I would be single waiting for a boy of my color to notice me, still I turned down offers from boys of other races in an effort not to offend my family/friends. Senior year, I had enough. My first date, my mother insisted the boy come meet her before we left for the movies. When she opened the door and he was White, she gave a look, and it wasn’t good-for-you-for-dating-up-the-ladder, she was disappointed.
     My mother’s complextion is such that people think she is maixed and she couldn’t understand why I wasn’t interested in Black men. I explained that the problem wasn’t on my part. When I asked my White high school sweetheart if it bothered him that I was dark, or didn’t have “good-hair” he simply took my hand and said, “We are the same color. That’s not why I like you though…” It was the first time I realized that not everyone was obsessed with color. It really didn’t matter to some people, it was starting not to matter to me. He could appreciate me for me and not care less about my complexion.
     In college I thought Black/African American men would be more mature and more enlightened than to behave the way the boys did in high school. No Dice. When I finally did bring a boy home to meet the family, he was half white. My mother said – well this is better than nothing! With her luke warm stamp of approval we became engaged but it didn’t last.
     Even though we’ve got decades separating us, my experience was similar to the authors Aunt. There is no doubt that people still treat one another this way today. I wasn’t raised in the south during Jim Crow and I had to put up with similar behaviors.
     After college, working as a professional, it was the same thing with Black/African American men. Sometimes it is a result of how our own people treat us. We are human and want to be loved, by whomsoever will love us. I agree with the statement “I guess we just love men who really love Black women.” because that is what it comes down to, I just want to love someone who loves me too and accepts me as I am.
     I always assume that when women see me out with a man of another race and they offer a wink, it is because they have had to face the same difficulties with men of their own race, had to make the same choices to be happy, no matter what anyone els thinks.
     I don’t think this treatment is reserved for women, I’m sure that there are men who have felt rejected by women of their race/color. It makes sense that someone who hasn’t had to deal with these types of issues thinks that they don’t exist or simply doesn’t understand how another person can be impacted by something they take for granted.
     Wonderful topic, thanks to posting!

     Posted 06 Feb 2009 at 6:00 pm ¶

178. Amari wrote:

     I thought this wikipedia article evaluating Census Bureau statistics for 2006 very interesting. My husband is a pale, white Turk and I am a dark-skinned Black American female and we’re both highly educated and have been brought up with a worldly view. But to me, especially looking at the 2006 statistics, the question that I have to answer is how much do I want my kids to be raised in mainstream America, which seems to be, in general, still dealing with the psychological effects of a post-Reconstruction era?

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

     Posted 12 Feb 2009 at 2:21 pm ¶

179. sienna wrote:

     Thanks for this post. I recently (6 mos) started a relationship with a beautiful black man (I’m white). I had no idea that all of these social issues surrounded interracial couples, and so many of the books/blogs take this weird, accusatory, academic approach – more interested in labeling and blaming people than in resolving issues. By contrast, your post helped me so much! It was like finally finding a drink of water and understanding how people (normal people) feel about these things.

     Thanks,
     Sienna

     Posted 24 Feb 2009 at 3:25 pm ¶

180. sienna wrote:

     wow, i just read all of the comments. i had no idea there was so much anger toward whites of my (24 and under) generation. where is this all coming from? I know what our parents did, but what did we do?
     thoughtfully,
     - sienna

     Posted 24 Feb 2009 at 3:29 pm ¶

181. concreteRoze wrote:

     interesting post, it is nice to see a lady of color in the white house, and she is more typical of the coloring of most AA women i think thats the main thing, as if whether she is dark or not, im not sure, i mean of course she is “dark” in comparison to any other ethnicity ( i dont use the word race, thats a social construct) but she is average among african americans, brownskinned in my eyes, i mean as “black ” people, wouoldnt one expect her tone to be the median, and it seems to be, “dark” to me is wesley snipes, morris chestnut, perhaps naomi campbell etc. actually there arent too manya ctually “dark” personalities in hollywood, most are light, biracial, or brownskinned

     Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 11:37 am ¶

182. concreteRoze wrote:

     sienna, i don’t gather where you found the anger at in the article. the author is just relating issues that are relevant in AA circles, nowhere does it attack whites, but rather it is an unfortunate left over of institionalized racism which promotes lighter skin over dark. You have alot to learn if you just simply saw it as “attacking whites”. If you do not truly understand or feel threatened by what is said, thats unfortunate, but even more unfortunately its real for many black people, especially women.

     Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 11:49 am ¶