White American Culture is General Tso’s Chicken and Chop Suey

by Guest Contributor Restructure, originally published at Restructure!

Finally, somebody summarized the myths that non-Chinese Americans have about Chinese food. Most of what White Americans consider “Chinese food” is mostly eaten by white people, and would be more accurately described as “American food” (and perhaps even “white people food”).

Jennifer 8. Lee has a great video on TED Talks titled, Who was General Tso? and other mysteries of American Chinese food.

Here are some important points from the video:

Fortune cookies are almost ubiquitous in “Chinese” American restaurants, but they are of Japanese origin. Most people in China have never seen fortune cookies. Fortune cookies were “invented by the Japanese, popularized by the Chinese, and ultimately consumed by Americans.” Fortune cookies are more American than anything else.

General Tso’s chicken is unrecognizable to people in China. It is the quintessential American dish, because it is sweet, it is fried, and it is chicken.
Beef with broccoli is of American origin. Broccoli is not a Chinese vegetable; it is of Italian origin.
Chop suey was introduced at the turn of the 20th century (1900). It took thirty years for non-Chinese Americans to figure out that chop suey is not known in China. “Back then”, non-Chinese Americans showed that they were sophisticated and cosmopolitan by eating chop suey.

“Chinese” take-out containers are American.
There is Chinese French food (salt-and-pepper frog legs), Chinese Italian food (fried gelato), Chinese British food (crispy shredded beef), Chinese West Indian food, Chinese Jamaican food, Chinese Middle Eastern food, Chinese Indian food, Chinese Korean food, Chinese Japanese food, Chinese Peruvian food, Chinese Mexican food (which look like fajitas), Chinese Brazilian food, etc.
If McDonald’s is Microsoft, then Chinese food is Linux.

These myths that most White Americans have about “Chinese food” are not trivial. Generally, false assumptions beget false conclusions and distorted worldviews. When most White Americans believe that American foods like chop suey, General Tso’s chicken, and fortune cookies are “foreign” and “Chinese”, some effects include:

Most White Americans think that there is no such thing as “American food”, and that Americans are cosmopolitan and worldly, because they are exposed to foreign foods. For many White Americans, an example of “foreign food” is chop suey. This is ironic, because it actually reveals American insularity.
When White Americans think of “Chinese culture” (and assume that all Chinese Americans have retained their ancestral culture), most White Americans think of “Chinese” American food like chop suey, General Tso’s chicken, and fortune cookies. However, chop suey, General Tso’s chicken, and fortune cookies are actually examples of how Chinese culture has been lost and replaced by commercialism.
Many White Americans think that they are knowledgeable about Chinese culture (and not racist) because they eat at “Chinese” restaurants and order dishes like General Tso’s chicken. What many White Americans think as racial knowledge is actually racial ignorance.
In American movies and TV, Chinese identity is often represented by chop suey. For example, in Rodgers and Hammerstein’s Flower Drum Song (1961), which is arguably the only major Hollywood film with a predominantly Asian American cast as protagonists, the Asian American actors sang a celebratory song called “Chop Suey”. According to Arthur Dong, “Songs like ‘Chop Suey’ became an embarrassment for politicized Asian Americans. It didn’t matter that Flower Drum Song was based on a book written by a Chinese American; it was, in the end, a white man’s concoction.”

In American movies and TV, Chinese culture is often represented by fortune cookies. Sometimes non-Chinese Americans infer from the nonsensical messages in fortune cookies that Chinese thinking is nonsensical, mystical, and inscrutable. (That’s racist!) However, fortune cookie messages are manufactured in the United States for commercial purposes, to entertain mostly non-Chinese recipients. The messages are not ancient Chinese proverbs.
It is not uncommon for a White American to meet a Chinese American for the first time, and attempt to “relate” with her by informing her that he loves chop suey. This is offensive for multiple reasons. White Americans think of Chinese people as a stereotype (”Chinese” food), the stereotype is based on White American experiences rather than Chinese American experiences, the stereotype is not even accurate, the White American thinks that the Chinese person identifies with the racial stereotype, the White American thinks that Chinese ethnicity is represented by an American racial stereotype, etc.
LFO had a song called “Summer Girls” with a chorus that includes the lines, “New Kids On The Block had a bunch of hits. Chinese food makes me sick.” Many White Americans conclude that they “don’t like Chinese food” after eating one type of dish, and that dish probably did not originate in China. Whatever negative associations that White Americans have about Chinese food should actually be blamed on American culture (and American preferences for deep-fried food), not foreign Chinese culture.
Some White Americans use “Chinese food” as an example of Chinese people being unassimilable and not adapting to American culture. (Some White Americans even believe that the popularity of “Chinese food” in the United States shows how Americans accommodate and embrace minority cultures.) The reality is that “Chinese” American food is an example of how Chinese immigrants bend over backwards to create dishes customized for White American tastes.

Jennifer 8. Lee’s Italian friend was surprised to learn that fried gelato did not originate in China, and remarked, “It’s not? But they serve it at all the Chinese restaurants in Italy!” This incident illustrates the limitations of anecdotal experience as a source of knowledge. Even if the sample size is very large, anecdotal experience does not take into account selection bias. In this case, a biased sample lead to false conclusions about an ethnic minority group’s “culture”.

This incident also reveals that when the national culture is so pervasive, the cultural aspect of a practice that comes from the national culture is invisible to the ethnic majority. For example, White Italians do not see the Italian influence of fried gelato, only the perceived Chinese aspect of it. To Americans, however, the Italian influence of fried gelato is apparent, while fried gelato’s Chinese influence is not.

Similarly, Americans generally do not see the American influence of General Tso’s Chicken, only the perceived Chinese aspect of it. To non-Americans and observant Americans, however, the American influence of General Tso’s chicken is apparent, since it is sweet, (deep-) fried, and chicken. The dish known in the United States as “General Tso’s Chicken” is 100% American.

Perhaps the dish is also 1% Chinese, since the dish’s name was transliterated into English from the name of a Chinese person, and the people who serve it tend to be Chinese Americans.

However, fond memories of eating General Tso’s Chicken is a culture that is shared among more White Americans than Chinese Americans.

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Comments

Sumayyah Talibah wrote:

Wow! Very informative. The things they never teach us in school.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 8:22 am ¶
Rchoudh wrote:

Interesting post. This phenomenon is similar to the way certain Indian dishes are said to have originated with the British. Two examples being Chicken curry and Chicken tikka masala. With the tikka it’s said that a Bengali chef based in London decided to tweak the dish so that it would have gravy; this was in response to British complaints that the dish was too dry to consume.
So I’m just trying to understand the history behind how the above mentioned American dishes came to be known as “Chinese”. Were they variations of dishes originally from China similar to Chicken tikka? Or are they dishes completely alien to China and just given Chinese sounding names because the ingredients used are similar to what’s used in China? Pizza is an example I can think of of a dish whose ingredients are similar to what’s used in Italian food, so that’s why it’s referred to as Italian food even though its origin is in America.

I better stay out of this post the thought of all this food is making me hungry (which is not what I need to be since I’m fasting!)

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:07 am ¶
Rchoudh wrote:

Ok just needed to correct myself, it turns out pizza may in fact be originally Italian even though I always heard of it being a strictly American dish in origin. Of course I’m learning of its italian origin from Wikipedia so take that how you will.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:11 am ¶
Nora wrote:

I agree with the general point of this article, but I was just talking to my friends about how Chinese restaurants are one place where a racially diverse group people go. I mean, at Italian restaurants, I find mostly whites, and Middle Eastern restaurants, some whites, but others all Arab (like myself), Soul Food restaurants all black. I’m not sure how White Americans are the only group who perpetuate the stereotypes associated with Chinese food. I found that many of the examples you brought up, such as someone meeting a Chinese person and telling them they love chop suey, are evident among all races except Chinese.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:21 am ¶
Logan wrote:

Lets see…. dinner tonight for us was some zucchini with sprouts and shredded beef, rice with some various vegetables mixed in, lamb meat on a stick with spices over it, hong mein noodles,salted beef, and a few drinks for us all. We were eating at a Moslem restaurant in the village near by, but much of this stuff is available elsewhere. Honestly, I’d say the food I currently most associate with China (or at least Beijing) is meat on a stick. Even though its about 30 to 20 degrees outside, there are a ton of places in Changping which have vendors with heat lamps and various meat products on sticks, and I’ve seen this all around the city. Some food does vary from place to place depending on the restaurant (such as, and I’m getting the spelling wrong I know, Seshuan food which tends to be spicy), or maybe baozi/jiaozi.

And, this may just be me, but I haven’t met many people that think that the food they get at a Chinese restaurant back in the states is authentic Chinese food. While many may not know of the origins of General Tso’s chicken or Chop Suey, almost anyone I’ve ate Chinese food with knows by now that the food is suited for America’s sweeter palette. Admittedly I hung out with more culturally aware people than the majority of the country, but most were still aware that American Chinese food wasn’t really Chinese.

Though, admittedly, this does bring to mind a random anecdote from the table tonight. After our many failures to pick up the Hong Mein noodles, Lisa brought up the Sopranos, and a scene where Tony’s son asked him if noodles were really made in China. Tony’s response: “Tell me why on earth you’d believe that people that eat with sticks would make something that you need to eat with a fork.”

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:22 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:

Beef with brocolli may not be Chinese, but beef and gai laan is and I’m pretty sure it’s made the same way. Spinach isn’t Chinese either, and growing up, my grandmother always made stir-fried beef with spinach (yeah, I was a strange child. I liked spinach. Gai laan, not so much (though I like choy sum and bok choy!))

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:30 am ¶
RMJ wrote:

Great post! Very educational. I would be interested to see a similar post on “Indian” food. However, I am now hungry and will have to have General Tso’s tonight. Tragic, I know.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:48 am ¶
rob wrote:

rchoud makes a very good point about indian/british curries. Outside of a few restaurants in the big cities a chicken tikka masala (a maharaja amongst curries!) does not exist. I think such examples of two or more cultures combining in this way to create something which literally tens of millions of people enjoy is great! And lets not forget that the arrival of the british brought about the invention of the hottest indian meals by introducing very hot peppers from the south americas. The wheel keeps turning.

I have seen the other side of the coin as well in ‘non western’ countries where the local chefs idea of a pizza, pasta, chips(french fries) or a pancake etc bears no relation whatsoever to its platonic western ideal. It certainly makes eating out very interesting.

I think people telling you that they like chop suey is not in anyway an ignorant or offensive thing to do, doesnt it just seem like a casual ice breaker? Possibly the person saying it is a bit nervous and cant think of anything else. It has certainly been my experience that when foreigners find out i am english they like to talk about cricket, football (soccer) or the queen, im not interested in any of those things really but i am always glad that someone has made the effort to start a conversation in a friendly way, trying to find something in common.

Rchoud is also right when (s)he? says all this food talk is making a trip to the shops necessary!

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:53 am ¶
lakergrrl wrote:

People still seriously think chop suey is authentic Chinese food! ?!

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 10:10 am ¶
Mimi wrote:

I love the TEDTalks. This one was no exception. Jennifer 8 is awesome at reminding people that we have a dirty history with a smile.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 10:22 am ¶
Jess wrote:

To further illustrate the point about Italian fried gelato – Chinese restaurants in the UK don’t serve any of the dishes you mention (chop suey, General Tso’s Chicken, fortune cookies).

I’m sure that most of the dishes that you commonly find in UK Chinese restaurants are also not Chinese food, either though, and a similar process has occured, it’s just resulted in different dishes!

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 10:50 am ¶
CVT wrote:

Of course, this doesn’t even touch upon “Pan-Asian” cuisine, and how so many Asian ethnicities and foods are rolled into one in so many restaurants in the States (without declaring that to be).

I know many “Vietnamese,” or “Thai” or “Chinese” restaurants that actually serve dishes that originate in other nations – because they happen to be what’s popular to non-Asian Americans. Definitely goes a long way to perpetuating the stereotype that “all Asians are the same.”

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 10:55 am ¶
karak wrote:

I went to China for school for a month. We concluded that we preferred “American” Chinese food and found most dishes either unrecognizable or so incredibly altered that we had to close to our eyes to eat it (like the eating pancakes and tasting chicken).

Best example? Egg drop soup with sugar.

What we have in the states as “foreign food” is really, terribly off.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:08 am ¶
Restructure! wrote:

I’m not sure how White Americans are the only group who perpetuate the stereotypes associated with Chinese food.

White people are not the only group that perpetuates this, but most people who celebrate this food are white. Even in small towns that are overwhelmingly white, there is at least one “Chinese” American restaurant in the town that serves this fare.

I found that many of the examples you brought up, such as someone meeting a Chinese person and telling them they love chop suey, are evident among all races except Chinese.

You’re probably right, although from my personal experience (which is limited), the non-white people who do that are first-generation immigrants with accents, and the white people who do that don’t have accents, insist on the topic, and don’t sense any of my discomfort. It might be because of my area, though.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:09 am ¶
Eric Grant wrote:

I’ve been told that sweet and sour chicken balls are the original Canadian contribution to the vast and variable menu of the global “Chinese restaurant”.

Can anyone confirm or contradict?

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:16 am ¶
Gothic Guera wrote:

Oh my gosh I recall my father telling on how what some people thought as Chinnese food was in fact American food. This brought me back memories when we used to eat out in my family we would eat at these hole in the wall restaurants in China -town with really good food.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:21 am ¶
Restructure! wrote:

I agree with the general point of this article, but I was just talking to my friends about how Chinese restaurants are one place where a racially diverse group people go. I mean, at Italian restaurants, I find mostly whites, and Middle Eastern restaurants, some whites, but others all Arab (like myself), Soul Food restaurants all black.

I think “Thai”, “Japanese”, and “Greek” restaurants are pretty diverse, too. “Italian” too, if it’s Olive Garden or something similar.

Actually, I think “Middle Eastern” restaurants, particularly “Lebanese”, are pretty diverse in the downtown area where I live. White people love hummus. (And so do I.)

It seems like white people popularize certain types of foods, which makes that food readily available to everyone else. That’s why hummus is a standard condiment for any sandwich wrap place in downtown Toronto.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:28 am ¶
Monie wrote:

I think this post is a bit overstated. First I don’t think you can only lay this on White Americans. That in itself is kind of racist. It’s really saying that only White people are true Americans. African Americans eat a lot of faux-Chinese food as well. So do many other ethnic groups of Americans.

Second; I don’t think I have ever had Chop Suey or General Tso’s chicken. I have however had all sorts of other dishes that probably are not authentic though. But how do you blame us for not knowing what is and what isn’t authentic Chinese food when it’s Chinese people or Asian people that run the restaurants that sell us the food?

Should we have been saying; “yeah this is good food, but is it authentic Chinese food?”

Also as someone that lives in the San Francisco Bay Area I can say the most Bay Area residents are, at least these days, a bit more sophisticated regarding food authenticity than the author gives credit for.

This piece is full of gross generalizations. It seems that if the author’s point is that Americans don’t know anything about authentic Chinese culture/ food, then maybe the author ought to consider why (some) Chinese Americans have led us to believe that what is not authentic was authentic?

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:30 am ¶
Restructure! wrote:

Advanced white people sandwich-wrap places also have baba ganoosh as an ingredient.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:35 am ¶
Ebony wrote:

The bit about fortune cookies reminds me of the movie “Innocent” about an immigrant Chinese family in Canada.

-”What are these?”
-”I don’t know. White people like these.”

Or something like that.
Anyway, it was a good movie.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:40 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

Almost all food is hybrid, if you go back far enough, but it’s interesting how some kinds get respect, and others don’t.

For example, I find that the few times I’ve eaten “Pan-Asian cuisine” it’s been overpriced crap. But it seems to command a lot more respect than plain old Chinese-American chop suey.

I don’t really like hybrid Mexican food either, I prefer “real Mexican”. But Tex-Mex has its own history, and is my purist, elitist distaste for it really justified?

When it comes the other way around… a Japanese pizza toppings list can be pretty scary. You can order pizza with toppings like mayonnaise and cuttlefish. In Japan, bastardized, radically de-spiced Indian food is also extremely popular.

Some national elements that people tend to think of as traditional are fairly recent. Someone already mentioned hot peppers, which started off in the Americas but spread all over the world in the 16th century. I’ve always wondered why Korean cuisine embraced them but Japanese cuisine didn’t.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:54 am ¶
Yondalla wrote:

I was told ages ago that “chop suey” came from “chopped suet” and was a dish served by whites to Chinese workers on the railroads. I’ve believed that since I was a child and have thought the dish was offensive on multiple levels. (I’m white, if that’s relevant).

In our house we refer to many of the dishes we make as “Chinese-inspired” or “Mexican-inspired.”

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:01 pm ¶
jen* wrote:

One more “Chinese” staple to add to the list: moo goo gai pan.

I don’t see it everywhere now, but it seemed pretty ubiquitous in the Chinese restaurants of my childhood.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:04 pm ¶
Cycads wrote:

This is such a great post. For a long time, I felt that a lot of ‘ethnic’ food derived little from its perceived origins. And I hate the way popular ‘foreign’ cooking are used to racialise certain groups, often in a bad light. Re: LFO’s “Summer girls” song – do the lyrics imply that the Chinese cook unappetising, revolting food?

Rchoudh,

I was going to say the same about chicken tikka masala, once voted Britain’s favourite food. You could say that for most Britons, all curry is the same but often modified to suit local taste buds. Korma, for example, is really popular because it’s quite mild, same goes for Thai green curry. But spicier versions are usually not made for fine dining: Indian restaurants in Britain have been known to be the vomitorium for lads on drunken night-outs.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:41 pm ¶
Ugly Deaf Muslim Punk Gurl! wrote:

that’s hardly shocking. My dad went to China last year for a while and when he came back, he said that Chinese food is NOTHING like “Chinese” food here in America.

I am visiting China on March, so I can’t wait to taste real Chinese food… and as an Indian, can I say how much I think Indian food tastes like crap in American restaurants?!?!?

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:43 pm ¶
TM wrote:

I think that the intersection between American-ness and foreign-ness is not always between White/Asian, but can be between Black/Asian, Latino/Asian, and of course White/Latino, Black/Latino, etc. Ironically, the author refers to “non-Chinese Americans” but seems to equate them with “White Americans.”

There’s a more complicated relationship between race and “foreign-ness” than the author implies, when she singles out White Americans. Not that she’s wrong that White Americans tend to do these things, but that the same could probably be said about Black or Latino Americans.

My point is that, history, language, culture, and orientalism/exotification also play a great role. She makes good points about the results of this, though, which is the most important thing.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:48 pm ¶
Roxie wrote:

“I think people telling you that they like chop suey is not in anyway an ignorant or offensive thing to do, doesnt it just seem like a casual ice breaker? Possibly the person saying it is a bit nervous and cant think of anything else.”

I think it is both ignorant and offensive. B/c that person usually making that comment b/c they assume that that food is partiucular to YOUR culture and that your culture is monlothic tastebud. It’s also just plain WEIRD. Can you imagine, you’re nervous around a white person and you to “break the ice” you say, “You know, I think hot dogs taste really good. Apple pie is nice too.”
O.o?
I mean, like is that supposed to impress someone or something? Are they PROUD they like a food that is not thought of as their culture so they must share this with someone of that culture so that person would just be totally impressed, “like, OMG, I LOVE FRIEND CHICKEN TOO! OMG!”

Just weird.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:49 pm ¶
Roxie wrote:

Ha, I meant “fried” not “friend”

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:49 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

Just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how degrading the whole Chinese food enterprise is. The competition among ourselves, the humiliation on so many levels, the ignorance of the mainstream–it all adds up to an incredibly frustrating way to make a living.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 12:58 pm ¶
Comment wrote:

All ethnic groups buy into these myths. I’m African American and I just learned a thing or two

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 1:35 pm ¶
Keren wrote:

In the UK most of the Chinese community come from Hong Kong (for obvious reasons) and so the Chinese food we are used to eating in restaurants is actually Cantonese food. I know many people who have travelled to mainland China and been shocked at how different the food is.

@rchoudh
Pizza IS Italian! The pizza you eat in America, however, is completely different to the kind of pizzas you get in Italy.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 1:51 pm ¶
Ugly Deaf Muslim Punk Gurl! wrote:

It’s always offensive to associate any ethnic or racial group with food, period.

I’m always offended when people tell me right away that they love curry or chicken tikka after they find out I’m Indian.

yeah and….? your point is…?

Here’s an interesting trivia fact: chicken tikka is not even Indian. It is a British Asian invention, created by Asian immigrants in Manchester, England in the 1960s. I read that somewhere.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 2:08 pm ¶
A wrote:

“I think this post is a bit overstated. First I don’t think you can only lay this on White Americans. That in itself is kind of racist.”

Word. If you wrote an essay saying “Black Americans think this. Isn’t that stupid and wrong?” or called a cuisine “black people food,” everyone would be (legitimately) annoyed. So how is this any different?

Also, using White Americans as shorthand for general American culture is pretty problematic.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 2:33 pm ¶
Joanna Eng wrote:

I liked this post. (Woah, Racialicious could do a whole series on food!) I have always wondered where fortune cookies came from.

But I also agree with “Monie” and “Comment” in that it’s not only a white American phenomenon. You should see how many Chinese restaurants there are in the black, Latino, and racially diverse neighborhoods of NYC. Really, there’s one every couple of blocks. And many, many Chinese Americans frequent these un-”authentic” Chinese restaurants too.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 2:35 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:

“Advanced white people sandwich-wrap places also have baba ganoosh as an ingredient.” So true, Restructure!, so true.
Mixing foods and cooking styles shouldn’t be a problem in theory but the way that it’s done in American/Euro culture is problematic because of exoticization/myths of ‘authenticity’ and the social meanings that come with these practices.

I’ve never even heard of General Tso’s chicken, but maybe that’s because of my Canadian overexposure to chicken balls [you called it Eric Grant]. I also find that westernized ‘Chinese’ food from different parts of Canada differs significantly by region. I’m not sure if Lee touches on this in her book, but it would be interesting to compare why and how certain dishes became popular as ‘Chinese’ food in different parts of the continent.

Yondalla’s point about chopped suey reminds me of the Quebecois term for what most of us call ’shepherd’s pie’ (peas and carrots with mashed potatoes on top, ground meat sometimes too), which is ‘paté chinois’. They originally called it that because that’s what they fed Chinese railroad laborers up here and the term is still widely used without question.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 2:50 pm ¶
Cynthia wrote:

You know what’s interesting about Americanized/Canadianized Chinese food is pricing. If it’s higher-end, it’s automatically fusion or “Asian-inspired.” Take for example, the Toronto resetaurant, Lai Toh Heen fare there isn’t what one normally sees at a Chinese restaurant in the Asian areas in Markham, for example. Yet, it’s not cheap chop suey stuff either. More Asian-inspired (or maybe western-inspired Chinese food?) or fusion-y. You would never equate that place with old-time Chinatown.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 2:54 pm ¶
Ike wrote:

“I think people telling you that they like chop suey is not in anyway an ignorant or offensive thing to do, doesnt it just seem like a casual ice breaker? Possibly the person saying it is a bit nervous and cant think of anything else.”

It’s a casual ice breaker – based on their perception of my race and racial stereotypes. If I meet a white American, do I immediately start in on how much I love bratwurst with sauerkraut and beer? No.

Look past my race. Maybe comment on something I might be interested in based on how I dress. Talk about things young people might like to do, based on my age. If you can’t come up with an ice-breaker that doesn’t offend me… guess what? I’m not talking to you.

*Note: The “you” is not rob, it’s anyone who would try to talk to me about chop suey. I’ve never had it. I also don’t know what crab rangoons are, but they aren’t crab.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 3:08 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:

Interesting post. Maybe it’s different in less-metropolitan areas of the country, but I never thought that the Chinese food at the usual suburban restaurants was what was actually eaten in China. But since kindergarten, there were always at least two or three Chinese kids in my classes, and my mom always loved to take my sister and me into Chinatown, where she’d pick out which restaurant to go to by telling us to peek in the windows and find one where all the customers were Chinese.

I’ve never heard chop suey referred to as anything other than an American creation. (And, correcting something in the original post — that’s how it’s used in Flower Drum Song. IIRC, it’s right after the aunt gets her American citizenship, and she says something like, “I’m Chinese and ALSO American,” and another character scoffs, “Right, like that junk they serve at the restaurant — what do they call it? Chop suey!” And then everybody laughs, and that’s the segue into the song “Chop Suey,” which is all about integrating Chinese and American identities.)

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 3:12 pm ¶
Elizabeth wrote:

I think Muslim Punk Girl hit the nail on the head. Nobody’s saying that we should stop serving these foods, and it WAS mostly Chinese Americans who tailored their dishes to the American mainstream (which is not a problem IMO- survival>cultural purity), but it’s rather degrading to immediately associate an ethnic group with food, especially if that food isn’t even part of their culture. (People used to be outraged that I didn’t like sushi as a Japanese American. Um, because some folks who immigrated to Hawaii to work in a hotel could obviously afford fancy Americanized raw fish for every meal, and now I’m betraying them by turning my back on it. Mmkay.)

I think the thing that bothers me the most about the commodification of Asian cultures is that people of other ethnicities get to “put on” the appearance of being cool and cultured through the foods they eat, the tattoos they put on their body, a Buddha keychain, a couple words of a language. They get all this without having to go through the hard work of actually understanding an Asian culture, much less confronting their own racism against Asian American people.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 3:14 pm ¶
rob wrote:

roxie, were you to meet a foreigner, say in india or england, who found out you are an american, its pretty likely the topic of hot dogs, baseball or george bush would soon come up. Not that people are PROUD of liking the food or knowing what a catchers mitt is but that they know something about something they THINK you like. As i said an ice breaker not a racist challenge.

And its a pretty harmless assumption to make, The odds are if you are of indian, chinese or german extraction and your family has been keeping its old traditions then food may well be one area that some common ground can be found. Most indians i know in india love nothing better than a masala dosa and some lentil dahl. British indians nearly always look forward to one of their mums classic curries.

If you are chinese and you hate chop suey or whatever then there is a marvelous conversational oppourtunity to challenge some stereotypes, but do it in a friendly way. Everybody loves food, the experience of a full belly and satisfied tongue is a joy common to all mankind. (notwithstanding some people have not enough food, but that is a seperate, much more important topic.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 3:52 pm ¶
Paz wrote:

–I agree with Monie. It’s not just a White American thing. I’ve never known anyone to go up to a Chinese person and say, “I like chop suey,” but maybe that’s because I live in an area that has a decent percentage of Chinese people, so they’re not such a curiosity.
–I took a course in California history, and in San Francisco, Chinese who opened restaurants altered their food to attract White people to get more business.
–Had no idea about the beef with broccoli.
-Reminds me though of Mexican food, how it’s been altered. Even in authentic Mexican taquerias, they serve burritos because it’s what non-Mexicans expect. I always see Mexicans eating tacos and non-Mexicans eating burritos.
–Since China is so vast and its food varies according to region (not that I know the specific differences) is Chinese food an Americanized mesh of those foods, or is it just mainly from one region? Just curious…

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 3:58 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:

What a great post! I had heard before that the Chinese food we are used to is actually not Chinese food. It brings up some very interesting issues.

To the faux-Indian food I would add butter chicken.

The Westernization of “ethnic” food is another example of the commodification and appropriation of culture. Its as if to say, “Your food in its original form is offensive. We need to sanitize it.”

But I do have to agree with a point Monie has made. How are we supposed to know what is Chinese or not when Chinese-Americans/Canadians are serving it to us? I actually ask the same thing of Indian restaurants even though I am South Asian myself. For instance, growing up I had never come across butter chicken – not at home or anyone else’s home. (I grew up in a very homogeneous place so no Indian restaurants.) It wasn’t until my early 20’s, on a trip to BC, did I hear about it. And ever since I’ve seen it in all the Indian restaurants I’ve been to. I still have not figured out if it is Indian or not because its always Indians serving it to me, but as a Punjabi Pakistani Canadian I never came across it growing up.

@Elizabeth:

“I think the thing that bothers me the most about the commodification of Asian cultures is that people of other ethnicities get to “put on” the appearance of being cool and cultured through the foods they eat,…”

Yes. Me too. Same thing with South Asian food and culture. And what bothers me even more is that I distinctly remember as a child being told my food tasted weird and smelled funny. When we do it as part of our culture and who we are its weird and disgusting. But when its appropriated by others its all of a sudden cool and trendy.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶
Ruchama wrote:

That sort of reminds me — I’ve been to a few “Indian Chinese” restaurants in Indian neighborhoods in the US — restaurants that serve what the Chinese restaurants in India serve. The food there was really interesting. I don’t remember everything I got, but one thing I remember is an egg roll wrapper wrapped around a vegetable filling with seasonings that tasted much more Indian than Chinese to my American tongue. There were also a few noodle dishes that seemed like the same basic oily noodles that most American Chinese restaurants serve.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 4:31 pm ¶
Nora wrote:

I’m not sure how White Americans are the only group who perpetuate the stereotypes associated with Chinese food.
White people are not the only group that perpetuates this, but most people who celebrate this food are white. Even in small towns that are overwhelmingly white, there is at least one “Chinese” American restaurant in the town that serves this fare.
I found that many of the examples you brought up, such as someone meeting a Chinese person and telling them they love chop suey, are evident among all races except Chinese.
You’re probably right, although from my personal experience (which is limited), the non-white people who do that are first-generation immigrants with accents, and the white people who do that don’t have accents, insist on the topic, and don’t sense any of my discomfort. It might be because of my area, though.

I’m still a bit confused on why only whites do this. It’s not only White Americans. It’s all Americans minus Chinese-Americans. I find it frustrating that you’re using White Americans as a synonym for the ignorance of Americans.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 4:31 pm ¶
Eric wrote:

I’d like to learn more specifics about traditional Chinese diets. My impression from The China Study is that they are/were predominantly plant-based.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 4:50 pm ¶
EB wrote:

This should be cross-posted at Stuff White People Like.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 5:10 pm ¶
rob wrote:

Sobia, butter chicken is common in india. I dont know how long it has been around but it is a staple in transport cafes and restaurants all over the country, at least the non veg ones anyway. I dont know if its the same as the one you get but its a rich creamy buttery sauce with, i think, some cumin, ginger, tumeric and assorted indian spices. Actually its not dissimilar to a british version of curry so maybe there has been some cross over somewhere along the line.

Why not ask the waiter if he knows the origins of the dish, im sure if he knows he would be happy to share the information.

I still cant see that the ‘westernisation’ of foods is saying that “your food is offensive and needs sanitizing” its just chefs and cooks taking ideas and altering the recipe to suit the local palate. Not everyone likes the same things. I really hope that food does not become a politicised issue, as i said before a love of food and the rituals of eating transcend artificial boundaries. Even if you speak not one word in common with someone else, say you and a lost amazon tribesman, the act of offering and sharing food and drink needs no words. Is is a truly pan-human experience. Maybe sharing a smoke is similarly cross cultural but food came first.

Sorry, im rambling, but its a very interesting topic and i love cooking so im always mixing up different ideas and trying new things.

A joke and true story for you all…

Sitting in the work canteen at 3am with a french guy a russian guy and two indians and a dutch girl they were all saying their words for bon appetite, eet smaakelijk etc. When i was asked what the traditional words were in britain i though about the awful (and well deserved) reputation of british food around the world and the fact that there is no english phrase for bon appetite, i just looked at my plate of canteen muck gave a shrug and just said ’sorry’! We all fell about laughing. It was a good lunch break.

“We should look for someone to eat and drink with before looking for something to eat and drink, for dining alone is leading the life of a lion or wolf” epicurus

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 5:16 pm ¶
Lauren P wrote:

I agree with the comments that this isn’t necessarily a “White American” issue. Some of the ideas are thought-provoking however terms like “most White Americans think” are problematic. Where is the survey that “most White Americans” completed to indicate their views? The anecdotal evidence that I’ve experienced is contrary to what the author outlines in the post but again, that’s my experience only.

I haven’t heard the term “chop suey” in years nor have I seen the dish on any menu. I spoke to a friend that owns a Chinese restaurant (he’s Chinese-Korean, BTW) and he said that they used to have two different menus, one was more “Americanized” and one was traditional. Finally they combined them because their customers demanded more traditional food. His mother (also an owner) said that when she moved to the U.S., many dishes were changed or altered because of a lack of access to traditional ingredients. What she also shared was that even within China there was huge variation on dishes of the same name based on access to ingredients or regional recipes. Now, with the FedEx and a fantastic local community that demands access to fresh, traditional ingredients, all things are possible. Again, it might just be the area I live in (major metropolitan area).

But the comments regarding the portrayal of Chinese people in films and songs are very timely, very important. Flower Drum Song was(is?) considered a “classic” but it makes my skin crawl. What happens when these “classics” are brought out again and dusted off? West Side Story, anyone? Ugh.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 5:31 pm ¶
Lauren P wrote:

One more thing, do we really consider Olive Garden a good example of an Italian restaurant? Sorry but I had to ask and chuckle too. I would almost consider that an “American” restaurant since that’s what we’re famous for, large chains, large portions. I mean that in the nicest way possible:).

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 5:36 pm ¶
Big Man wrote:

In that picture Jennifer 8. Lee is giving everybody the finger.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 5:41 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:

to echo some of the previous comments, i have a few problems with this article, mainly with the fact that the author lumps all of america into the “white americans” box as if they are the only real americans. while i understand the intentions, the end result is alienating and frustrating to read. it distracts the reader from the real point about food appropriation and instead resorts to playing the blame game by gearing racism towards whites, and inadvertantly, towards other non-chinese american groups whose existence seems to have no even been considered when writing the article.

my second issue lies in the simple fact that food is often about hybridity. almost all the food we buy in grocery stores or eat in restaurants in the united states comes from some other place in terms of the culinary tradition. that’s kind of the point, really, to blend things together to fit our respective palates. americans are not the only people who do this. every other country does as well.

one of the comments on restructure’s site reads as follows:

“Seriously though, these examples really demonstrate the power of America and the West essentially to appropriate somebody else’s culture (in this case cuisine) and then remake and redefine it such that much of the world mistakes it for the original/real…

The cultural equivalent would be if some Eastern country appropriated elements of American dishes like say macaroni and cheese, jelly donuts, and Philly cheese steaks and then arbitrarily combined them together to form a whole new cuisine–which then is defined as quintessentially American and commonly accepted by many people as such…

Imagine if General Tso somehow became representative of Chinese cuisine and Taco Bell became representative of Mexican cuisine–and were accepted by people around the world as such. That would be a dystopian culinary nightmare.”

ummmm…this is exactly what happens. while living in brazil, i have become frequently frustrated by the question “what do americans eat” because of all the explaining required to dispel myths about what americans eat. noooo i don’t eat mcdonald’s…no, i don’t eat junk food for breakfast, etc. it’s also frustrating for me to witness a complete bastardization of what i would consider “american food.” but at the end of the day, one has to realize that that is kind of the point. are we just being hyper critical because we notice americans doing this and don’t blame other countries who do the exact same thing to our food?

while my food is seen as a marker, though false, of american-ness, i can’t consider people guilty for changing a new food to fit their tastes, nor can i blame those who may incorrectly associate the new blended food with america. it’s just sort of a culinary evolution that is occuring, if you will.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 6:16 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:

Someone please clue this 3rd-generation Chinese-Am in: what the hell is fried gelato? And where in the world do they serve it in Chinese restaurants?

Alas, I have no idea what chop suey is either, but at least I’ve heard of it.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 6:47 pm ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:

I haven’t heard the term chop suey in at least a decade. If someone (white, black or whatever) told an Asian person “I like chop suey,” you could knock me over with a feather.

It’s like when a non-black person watches “Soul Food” or “This Christmas” and then asks about the Soul Train line in “This Christmas.” When my family argues about money or selling the family business/house, we don’t normally have a Soul Train line in the next scene. I have people in my family that are great dancers, but we don’t dance at the house every day.

I learned this lesson back in HS. My girlfriend’s best friend was Greek. Not in sorority but from Greece. I asked her if her mom was a good cook and could make stuff like gyros. She didn’t take offense, she just laughed at me long and hard and said, “That’s restaurant food. My mom will make you something involving lamb, but I doubt it will be served in foil with a side of fries.” Glad I grew up. I go to the Greek festival in my city and I’ve managed to survive without gyros. LOL.

If I ever meet someone of another race or culture, I will not assume they make restaurant food.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 7:16 pm ¶
InJM wrote:

If McDonald’s is Microsoft, then Chinese food is Linux.

This made me laugh. Then I thought about it and was going to comment that Apple might be better than Linux but then thought about it some more. With all the varieties and non-ever being quite the same but never being completely different, Linux was the best choice.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 7:26 pm ¶
Kat wrote:

“The Westernization of “ethnic” food is another example of the commodification and appropriation of culture. Its as if to say, ‘Your food in its original form is offensive. We need to sanitize it.’”

While widespread assumption and stereotypes about food and race can be damaging, I don’t really agree that “Westernizing” ethnic food in itself is offensive or dismissive of cultural practices, especially if a person from that ethnic group is doing it as an experiment, necessity due to lack of ingredients, or as a business decision.
As a counter, what about “ethnicization” of “Western” food?
For example, Japan, despite being a relatively small and non Western country has the third most McDonald’s in the world. When I was in Tokyo with my boyfriend, we went to one because they were very popular and always crowded and we were curious if it was better than American McDonald’s. The portion sizes were different, and the menu included a lot of Japanified items like spicier burgers, shrimp burgers, and matcha McFlurries. I got the impression talking to some friends who had lived in Tokyo for several years that part of the reason McDonald’s is popular with young (we went around 11 p.m. on a Saturday and it was packed with mostly teens who looked like they were having a fun time…Ive never seen a McDonald’s like that in the U.S, and never seen more than a handful of people eating IN) Japanese people there is because it’s a fun, sort of exotic, “American” thing to do , but not something Japanese people would eat every day. Similarly, in both Japan and China I’ve seen America and American attached to products and foods that aren’t in order to make them seem hip or exotic. Can it be offensive? Occasionally, but mostly it’s inoffensive branding or misinterpretation of cultural differences or adjustments to make it more culturally palatable.

That said…do people really believe Panda Express or something is “real” Chinese? Even living in an area without many Asians for parts of my life, I never really got the impression that there was a widespread belief that it was.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 7:36 pm ¶
Kat wrote:

Oh, and I don’t mean to seem like I’m making an “Asians are weird! Ha, Engrish!” comment, because when visiting the Netherlands, I also saw examples of things being falsely Americanized or American being used as a gimmick. For example, Cool Ranch Doritos are called “Cool American” in a lot of Western European countries. The cultural culinary seemed a little more prevalent, and usually more dramatic or unusual in Tokyo, however.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 7:45 pm ¶
G.K. wrote:

Interesting topic—and it’s cool to hear an Asian-American perspective on Chinese food (Chinese American food, I mean). Growing up here in Michigan, my family would usually go out to eat Chinese food every now and then—it was just a regular thing, along with McDonalds and Burger King. Here in majority-black Detroit, Chinese restaurants are everywhere you look. I’ve always liked it myself–chop suey and all—in fact, it’s funny that I found this topic here, because I just finished a frozen teriyaki chicken dinner, and I love me some General Tso’s chicken. I think the reason black folks (at least here in the D) like Chinese food is because it’s not only cheap, it’s filling and it’s got meat, rice and vegetables with spicy sauces all mixed together (the 3 former being a staple of African-American diets). It’s not just white folks who have a thing for it, or think that it’s real Chinese food. A Thai restaurant just opened on Woodward Avenue near a couple of blocks from the Wayne State area—I’ve been to a Thai restaurant (not that one) and found that it is slightly different from Chinese-American food in that it seems to have much more vegetables (and more unusual-looking ones). It’s still good though.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 8:19 pm ¶
Nu wrote:

If I meet a white American, do I immediately start in on how much I love bratwurst with sauerkraut and beer? No.

But some Americans (etc.) do that when they hear that I am German. It’s better than being asked whether I’m Aryan or if my grandparents were nazis (which happens more often, sadly), but still not much of a conversation starter with me, since I am a vegetarian, hate sauerkraut and don’t really… talk about beer, just drink it.

Like others have said, I suppose sometimes people want to say something concerning a person’s nationality or ethnicity, to demonstrate an interest or find some common ground, and can’t think of anything else due to a lack of positive personal experiences or simple knowledge… food is such an innocent topic, certainly better than politics or history, or anything you heard on the news about the country in question. It can still be connected with annoying and wrong stereotypes, but I’d rather laugh off a sauerkraut remark than tackle a highly personal, complicated and somewhat painful issue like what my grandfathers did during WW2.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 8:38 pm ¶
Peter Pixie wrote:

I dont know any one who even eats Chop Suey. Seriously, anyone here know of someone who eats it?

Also, at least here in Wichita, Kansas, every asian food resturant Ive frequented (and worked at) is owned by asians.

The owners serve food people will eat. The OWNERS bare a large part of the blame in introducing items and passing them off as ‘chinese’ if you will.

And is it me or does this article appear to be just angry at white people for liking food the enjoy?

I truly want to know how many times someone has had a white person come up to them and say they like Chop Suey. Seriously. Anyone?

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 8:46 pm ¶
ahimsa wrote:

I think that comment about “restaurant food” is very apt. The Indian restaurants in the US that I’ve visited serve food that is quite different from the “home food” that my Indian in-laws make.

I also agree with the point that many Americans, not just white ones, have bought into various myths about Chinese food/culture. And many other cultures.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 8:51 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:

Hey all,

1. “White Americans” vs. “non-Chinese Americans”

I definitely do not equate “White Americans” with “non-Chinese Americans”. White Americans are a proper subset of non-Chinese Americans. The two terms are not supposed to be interchangeable; I’m referring to two different groups that overlap.

The reason why I refer to such food as “white people food” is that that food is stereotypically associated with white people in the minds of some Chinese North Americans that I know (along with hummus, sushi, vegetarian food, etc).

So what does it mean exactly to attach a race or ethnicity X to a particular dish Y? It doesn’t mean that only people of race/ethnicity X eat Y, since I am not Lebanese, but I can and do eat “Lebanese” food. “Lebanese food”, whatever it refers to, does not refer to “food that is eaten only by Lebanese”. In theory, “Lebanese food” is food that Lebanese people typically eat, and does not exclude that possibility that non-Lebanese people eat it too.

Similarly, my usage of “white people food” does not mean that only white people eat it and that non-white people cannot eat it. It means “food that white people typically eat”. (If you don’t have double standards for white food and non-white foods, there wouldn’t appear to be a contradiction.)

2. I am not against food appropriation or food “hybridity” (whatever that means). The concept of “authenticity” is flawed, because it assumes that certain cultures remain static and frozen in time, instead of being dynamic and fluid.

Tomatoes were not originally native to Italy; they were first imported from the Americas. Chili peppers were not originally native to India; they were first imported from the Americas. Potatoes were not originally native to Ireland; they were first imported from the Americas.

What I have a problem with is what I outlined in the post. The presumption that I am a food purist and cultural purist (whatever that means) probably comes from the stereotype that people who have beef with misconceptions of food origins are really complaining about “authenticity”. Maybe other people do that, but if you CTRL+F for “authenticity” and “appropriation”, you will find them absent from the actual post.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:00 pm ¶
Monie wrote:

“…When my family argues about money or selling the family business/house, we don’t normally have a Soul Train line in the next scene. I have people in my family that are great dancers, but we don’t dance at the house every day….” – Phil Deeze

Bravo! lol OMG that is so true. Hollywood Black people are so different from real Black people.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:03 pm ¶
Paz wrote:

wendi muse – i was in brazil for awhile too and i remember i was once in a pizzeria that had a pizza called The Californian which had dried fruit on it! I happen to be Californian so I found that hilarious.
Oh and people thought I ate eggs, bacon, pancakes, sausage, etc. for breakfast everyday. I told them I don’t know a single person who eats like that.
I’ve seen a number of restaurants that feature “Mediterranean food” (baba ghanoush, hummus, gyros, that yogurt drink thing) but I always found it odd that they don’t denote the country, especially when they’re being run by “Mediterranean” people. I guess that’s their way of marketing towards Americans.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:06 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:

I’ve been told that sweet and sour chicken balls are the original Canadian contribution to the vast and variable menu of the global “Chinese restaurant”.

Can anyone confirm or contradict?

I originally thought that chicken balls were of American origin because they seemed stereotypically American (sweet, fried, and chicken), but Wikipedia says that chicken balls are largely unheard of in the United States, with no citation. I had chicken balls in the States, though (I play pseudo-anthropologist too).

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:12 pm ¶
SCsteph wrote:

This post reiterated to me that Chinese Americans are not generally seen as Americans, but rather Chinese nationals. There are people who autmatically assume that Asians and other POC are immigrants so not Americans. My Chinese American friend is always asked if she speaks Chinese or about “Chinese” food . However, I’ve yet to hear of a Causcaian in America who is frequently asked if they speak French or Sweedish based solely on their physical appearence. Thus, I think some people just don’t and in some cases won’t associate Chinese-American food as part of “real American” culture.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 9:34 pm ¶
Quita Pita wrote:

For the life of me, I cannot understand white Americans’ need to “relate” so damn much. Are they trying to make up for something or is it just that they are genuinely curious? This is like when whites ask to touch my hair because it’s “cool” –I’m biracial, black and white– or when the white lady at my son’s school or at my job addresses me as “girlfriend” or says stuff like “you go girl”. Ugh…

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 10:40 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:

I always thought “Chinese restaurant food” was something concocted for Americans. I associate steamers (and automatic rice cookers) with real Chinese cooking. Dim sum struck me as the real deal. How many Americans are likely to eat something containing “crunchy jellyfish”? Even the deep-fried battered chicken feet stand a better chance with non-Asian Americans, as long as no-one actually names them – deep-fried is deep-fried, after all ; )

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 10:57 pm ¶
L. wrote:

At any rate, for all of you who find it impossibly difficult to think of an ice breaker (does the weather still exist? or is that just not around these days???), may I suggest you refrain from talking about how much you love fried chicken and watermelon when talking to African-Americans.

ps.- The problem comes from acting on stereotypes. As I previously insinuated, there are plenty of run-of-the-mill, non-offensive/stereotypical topics to talk about (paying someone a friendly compliment is always nice). I find it a little disturbing that it would actually be THAT hard for someone to think of one.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:01 pm ¶
geo wrote:

interesting topic!

i had no idea that many of those foods, except fortune cookies, were not authentic Chinese food. it’s always been interesting to me how our society interprets who and what is American in such subtle instances.

i’m going to post it on my blog.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:02 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:

I dont know any one who even eats Chop Suey. Seriously, anyone here know of someone who eats it?

I don’t know anyone personally, but yes, people still eat it. (Apparently, chop suey really did originate in China, but chop suey in the United States is not representative of chop suey in Toisan.)

Also, at least here in Wichita, Kansas, every asian food resturant Ive frequented (and worked at) is owned by asians.

The owners serve food people will eat. The OWNERS bare a large part of the blame in introducing items and passing them off as ‘chinese’ if you will.

And is it me or does this article appear to be just angry at white people for liking food the enjoy?

It’s just you.

In a comment on my original post, I wrote, “I think Chinese Americans are responsible for this (as a Japanese American is responsible for California Rolls), since for most people, the sole purpose of opening up a restaurant is to make money. After all, General Tso’s chicken, beef with broccoli, fortune cookies, etc. are standard across Chinese American restaurants as if they were chain restaurants, but they are not.” (emphasis added)

I truly want to know how many times someone has had a white person come up to them and say they like Chop Suey. Seriously. Anyone?

Personally, no, but yes for chow mein, which is the noodle equivalent.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:08 pm ¶
little mixed girl wrote:

i feel quite iffy about this post.

i’m not a fan of people that think that they’re “worldly” because they eat foreign food, but again, i’ve never met people like that.

i guess the thing that doesn’t connect with me is the numerous mentions of “chop suey” and how “white americans” mention it.

“chop suey” is something from WW2 to me, something i’ve never eaten, have only heard about in books, and have never seen on a menu at a chinese restaurant.

it’s also possible that i grew up in a bubble, but i can’t think of many people who thought that “chinese food” from panda express or anyplace like that was authentic. i personally have called it “americanized chinese food” for…forever?

if the problem isn’t altered food (altered to fit the tastes of the people in that region), then it’s ignorant people, but in the original post it sounds like “they eat americanized chinese food and brag about it”.

the non-chinese “purist” wouldn’t talk about eating chop suey, they’d talk about tantan men or something like that.

i guess i feel like a broad brush was used, and the OP may be talking about a group of people who are from a different generation than i’m from…

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 12:05 am ¶
CVT wrote:

@ Paz -
Way late response, but the “Chinese food” we get here in the States is definitely regional in nature. On the West Coast, for instance, it’s largely Cantonese – because that is (or was when I was a kid, at least) the area of China where the majority of immigrants to the States were coming from. Don’t know if that’s changed or how that falls out on the East Coast.

And back to the Pan-Asian thing – I just wrote a post about it, inspired (somewhat) by this post:

http://choptensils.blogspot.com/2009/01/on-pan-african-vs-pan-asian.html

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 1:32 am ¶
Lxy wrote:

This discussion about food reflects broader debates about cultural authenticity, the politics of appropriation, and hybridity that often dominant in intellectual/academic circles as well as to a degree in more popular forums like this website:

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/09/18/cultural-appropriation-homage-or-insult/

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/11/14/on-cultural-appropriation-halloween-and-beyond/

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/10/02/indigenous-feminism-and-cultural-appropriation/

One fundamental question raised is whether cultural appropriation (whether in cuisine or other aspects of culture) is politically problematic, such as reinforcing existing racist hierarchies and stereotypes?

For some people, the answer seems to be tacitly no.

They would adopt what can be called the Post-Modernist argument that all culture is hybrid, fluid, etc. and hence the very idea of authenticity is suspect. So who is to say what is being culturally appropriated in the first place and who is appropriating whom?

I find this argument to be problematic in its political effects and implications, however.

While the point that this “post-modern” argument makes about culture being hybrid and fluid is valid to a degree (particularly with respect to so-called Essentialist misconceptions about the immutable and homogenous nature of cultural identity), this argument also will be used to politically minimize critical issues of power, dominance, and especially American cultural imperialism.

For example, some people above complained about how other countries “appropriate” and redefine US food also, and how it was frustrating because it misrepresented “American” cuisine and even national identity.

This may very well be true to an extent. However, what this type of complaint downplays is the issue of power–who has it and who does not, who is subject to power and who wields it.

There is a critical difference in cultural power and dominance between America and, say, a Third World country in the ability to appropriate a “foreign culture” and refashion its identity on a global scale.

Thus, a local restaurant in Latin America serving a “bastardized” version of American food is not comparable to the bastardized “Mexican” food of an American corporation like Taco Bell with global reach, influence, and resources. The latter, for example, is part of YUM, the largest restaurant company in the world and owners of KFC and Pizza Hut, with revenues in the billions of dollars.

Indeed, even in the USA, there is a similar imbalance in power between the “cultural appropriations” of White mainstream America and that of minority groups.

A related phenomenon also arises: This post-modernist rejection of cultural authenticity and consequent valorization (or fetishization) of hybridity also has a disturbing tendency to undermine political critiques of stereotyping and cultural racism–in effect if not declared intention.

That is, in the post-modern conception of cultural identity, how can one logically claim that a racist stereotype like Charlie Chan is any less real or valid than an “authentic” Asian American identity–if there is no such thing as cultural authenticity in the first place?

How can an opponent of cultural authenticity make the argument that Blackface Minstrelsy is any less an accurate representation of Black identity if there is no such thing as an “authentic” Black identity to begin with?

How could one viably criticize Juliette Lewis for appropriating Indigenous culture in her musical performances (as seen in the link above) if opposition to cultural appropriation in general is based upon a misguided essentialist conception of identity–as some postmodern arguments suggest?

These are all important political issues that are implicitly brought up in debates about culture, hybridity, and appropriation–even in a seemingly innocuous thing like cuisine….

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 2:33 am ¶
Chef de Cuisine wrote:

“Chinese Food” is different wherever you go in this wide world. Why? The owners of the restarants adapt their menu to suit the tastes of the the local market. If they did not, they would go broke.

I have eaten “Chinese Food” in Australia, NZ, the UK, Denmark, Mexico, Spain, the USA, Canada, Paraguay, Singapore and Malaysia. I have also eaten in Chinatown restaurants where the menus were entirely in Chinese. Each time the food was completely different.

In Australia, where I live, there are enough Chinese people (and by this I mean people born in China) to support restaurants that do not have to adapt their cuisine. Usually, you can tell these restaurants as they will describe themselves as “Cantonese”, “Hokkien”, “Beijing”, etc to indicate which culinary tradition they follow.

Then, of course, you have what people call “suburban Chinese” restaurants. These exist in suburbs which are not predominantly Chinese in any way, and the food served has been adapted to suit the tastes of the local market. Here you will find such delights as the ubiquitous bright purple, deep fried “Sweet and Sour Pork”.

This phenomenon is not confined to one cuisine, however. North American readers may be familiar with the “Outback Steakhouse” chain which purports to serve Australian food. A lot of the stuff on the menu is unknown in Australia. Take for example, Aussie Cheese Fries. Goodness knows what connection to Australia this concoction has. Ranch dressing is an American thing. The chips are covered in something called Monterey Jack, which Wikipedia informs me is a type of cheese. It doesn’t exist in Australia as far as I know.

In fact, the only place I have ever seen chips with cheese and dressing is at a place called “Misty’s Diner” which is – you guessed it – an “Authentic American Diner”.

Those interested in what is considered by Australians to be American food, can check out the menu. http://www.mistysdiner.com.au/index.asp

Here is a review describing the cheese fries, and an Aussie food critic’s take on the experience:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/epicure/restaurant-reviews/mistys/2008/12/24/1229998582003.html

Bon appetit, mes amis!

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 3:42 am ¶
Koala wrote:

This post is excellent. Other people have already made very good points, so the only contribution I can make is to quote Christoper Guest’s movie Waiting for Guffman. In it, people from a small town go to a Chinese restaurant and–you got it–it is more of an American restaurant. One of the couples waxes poetic about the food in the restaurant, saying that they went to China the previous year how disappointed they were at the food because “…they just don’t make the sauce so thick and sweet there”. That is still my favorite scene in the movie–always guarantees a laugh.

I’m a white immigrant to the US and my husband is Chinese American. When we go out to eat, one of the qualifying factors is whether the clientele looks to be from similar areas as to what the restaurant advertises to be its niche (if there are no Chinese people in the Chinese restaurant… not a good sign). The other day, a white couple did take us to eat Vietnamese food, and… yup. Mostly just white people in the restaurant, drinking margaritas with their bún. Which… is good if it is used as a spring board to get to know a cuisine (and thus a big part of a culture). But if it is the only experience of the food culture, then it remains unfortunately in the “ooh, I’m doing something exotic in a safe environment!”-type of a thing that reduces another culture and its important facets into something that one feels entitled to enjoy without having to expose his/herself to the culture and its people.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 5:01 am ¶
chi09 wrote:

This post and all of the subsequent comments remind me of situations I encountered after being introduced to my future mom-in-law ( who happens to be white, I’m not ) For months, comments about people of color went something like ” oh, I think theyre so –> INSERT STEREOTYPE” or “Oh, I know you’re probably used to this or that ethnic food/tradition, but… ” . I was quite offended( and still am). She generally judges me based on some preconceived idea about how people of my group are supposed to think/feel/live. However, I have to constantly remind myself that many of these “weird” or “demeaning” comments are the result of ignorance and that most people do not mean to offend. I see those moments as opportunities to educate and if my “unique perspective” is not appreciated, then it’s their loss… and then I usually go off into my anti-supremacy rant. ( in my head, of course!)

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 5:50 am ¶
cat eyes wrote:

we serve chop suey in the uk, but there is no consensus on whether it should be slightly sweet and sour or plain savoury, some shops also serve it with noodles and others it’s a beansprout based dish – every chinese takeaway has experienced complaints due to this confusion. ingredient wise it’s different to the americans, black fungi is never used in it for example. the shop i used to work in used beansprouts, carrot strips, water chestnut, whatever meat they ordered and a bit of sweet and sour sauce.

as for “indian” food in the UK, chicken tikka masala definitely comes from birmingham, not london or manchester. the original sauce was a tin of cream of tomato soup with some curry paste heated up in a korai. my ends is predominantly bengali and you can’t get tikka masala here, it’s just rice and fish and rice and fish.

on one last side note chinese food has always been syncretised – look at singaporean and malay “chinese” food, we wouldn’t recognise it back in china. ditto macanese food, if u go to, say, beijing and order galinha a la africana in a chinese restaurant you’d be out of luck. jamaican chinese food is lovely though, jerk chicken fried rice is sex on a plate. brazilian chinese food is the funniest, it’s actually just brazilian food – fried fish, rice, beans, greens, farofa – served by waiters in chinese costumes with a bottle of soya sauce on the side.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 6:51 am ¶
Peter Pixie wrote:

@Restructure!: Then I stand corrected and apologize for missing the later response.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 10:17 am ¶
tart of darkness wrote:

Very interesting discussion. For a lot of us white Americans who are older, we grew up with the “Chun King” style of “Chinese” food, but have been fortunate to be exposed to more sophisticated and authentic cuisine from various regions in China. Maybe it’s just ’cause we are in southern CA and have a lot of restaurants to choose from — including a lot of restaurants not limited to a defined Chinatown (although there is one).

To speak of any food as specifically country oriented is almost always limiting because every country has regional cuisine. Is “Mexican” food all the same throughout Mexico? Of course not.

The word “fusion” is used ad nauseam but I think it naturally applies when people from one place move to a very different place and apply their traditional cooking techniques to the local market supply. Of course when you want to make a living at this you cater to the tastes of your customers.

So, forgive me a little bit for saying that if I were a 20 year old living in Brooklyn in 1914 and I had never even been to Manhattan much less China and I was served Chop Suey in a restaurant decorated a Chinois by the only Chinese people I’d ever known or seen then I might think it’s Chinese food.

Of course it’s obtuse to use “I love Chop Suey” in 2007 as a way to bond with a new Chinese acquaintance, it is after all a person’s attempt to reach across a cultural barrier rather than not attempting at all.

And also, like Lakergrrl, I find it hard to believe that there’s anyone left that believes Chop suey or fortune cookies are authentically Chinese.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 11:00 am ¶
PatrickInBeijing wrote:

An interesting post. It seems to me the point is the misreading of a culture through the misunderstanding of it’s food. Food is an incredibly important part of Chinese culture, an dining is an important cultural act, not just about sating one’s hunger. The problem with inauthentic foods is not that they taste bad, but that they may send incorrect cultural information. (My opinion).

I ate some Mexican (being American Mexican, not the same, using the word Mexican only as a marker) food at a Chinese restaurant in Beijing. It didn’t taste Mexican at all, but was clearly an attempt to create a Mexican taste using local ingredients. The best was the salsa (I love salsa), which while copied from American Hispanic concepts, tasted completely Chinese, but like no other Chinese food I had ever tasted. To my surprise, it was good. I liked it.

Chao Mein, is generally simply Chao Mian (fried noodles). There are so many different kinds in China, none I have ever tasted reminded me very much of American Chao Mein (except in SF Chinese restaurants, where the customer base is largely immigrant). But I do see a connection, at least in terms of a starting point. Chinese vegetarian restaurants are very different from American vegetarian restaurants (especially the Chinese ones), but I know that many foreign people come and look for veggie egg rolls. Interesting.

It seems to me that the original post cries out for more education and learning about different cultures. Food should be an avenue for learning, not an obstacle. We should be aware that not all food is authentic (even if it tastes good to us), and that learning about inauthentic food is not the same as learning about authentic culture.

The real problem is that we (Americans) know so little about other cultures. Our ignorance about food is emblematic of that. OTH, if it tastes good, eat it…… (my mixed mind) (smile)

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 11:14 am ¶
Restructure! wrote:

@Lxy:

Wow, awesome discussion topics.

In my mind, there is a separation between identity and culture. What “my culture” is is about myself as an individual; it’s about different cultural habits I’ve adopted by interacting with different people, who themselves may have picked up cultural habits from others they have personally interacted with.

I’m Chinese and I know how to use chopsticks, but I really picked up how to use them in my early twenties, when I started frequenting various sushi restaurants that were popularized by white people, run by Chinese or Koreans, and influenced by Japanese food. If there is ethnic-identity-based cultural appropriation of chopsticks, it would be me (Chinese) appropriating white culture or Chinese/Koreans appropriating from Japanese, who, by using chopsticks, appropriated from Chinese. At the same time, if culture is linked to group identity, then one would conclude that I know how to use chopsticks because of my ethnic identity, which is false, essentialist, and doesn’t capture the dynamic and fluid nature of culture. The ethnic-identity-based concept of culture appears to contradict itself. Ultimately, ethnic adjectives for naming cultural practices are just about percentages and probabilities, not about identity.

Differences in power come into play because White Americans, for example, are defining the identities of people of other ethnicities and nationalities, not because of “appropriation” of culture. Maybe it’s really about “identity appropriation”.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 12:12 pm ¶
Terrie wrote:

I just want to make a comment on the idea of “authentic” food. I frequent a foodie site where the topic of “authentic” comes up at least three times a year, probably more. There is a difference between authentic and traditional.

Which is more “authentic”? A traditional Thai curry made by a white guy or a french-thai fusion dish made by a Thai guy?

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 12:39 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

Another great discussion. As the movement of goods/people/ideas fascinates me I love the Racialicious angle on those issues.

@chef~that article killed me (1) they don’t know how to make cheese fries: sharp (NY,WI,VT) cheddar or cojack (wiki ), bacon, sour cream/ranch, scallions, season to regional taste (2) jalapeno poppers crack me up b/c they are the bastard child of Tex/mex/southwestern and “our” love for certain types of cheese and crunchy textures.

b/c I am aware of the power dynamic (which would make more sense coming from a non-Anglo country), I can’t get too sensitive about a restaurant dedicated to mocking Americans. Besides, we are asking for it with the Bloomin’ Onion and those damn commercials.

***
Can anyone recommend any noteworthy articles/essays regarding the “Chinese” restaurant phenomenon?

***

Matcha Kit-Kat is the best god damn Kit Kat in the world.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 4:42 pm ¶
livininphilly wrote:

Interesting post. I honestly thought as a lot of other commentators that the targetting of “white americans” was interesting. I think in a lot of discourse of racial politics it’s very easy to identify “white people” or “white americans” as the standard target of the ire that arises when you live your life as an “other.” I know that I often fall into this particular trap.
I think the first time I really stopped to think about how Chinese food may be made up for the tastes of particular consumers was w/ the phenomenon of Mambo sauce in the DC metro area. I can guarantee you that mambo sauce (a quite delicious sauce that I still will make a point to purchase when I go home) isn’t avail anywhere outside of the DMV (DC/MD/VA) metro area not even in Baltimore. Growing up in the DMV I assumed that every Chinese store sold chicken wings and mambo sauce b/c all of them did where I lived. When I moved to Philly I asked for some Mambo sauce and no body knew what it was…
I would say though that mambo sauce was probably made up in response to african american tastes and not white americans. I say this b/c I have also tried to order mambo sauce in predominantly white neighborhoods in the DMV and been met with a similar response.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 4:53 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:

Which is more “authentic”? A traditional Thai curry made by a white guy or a french-thai fusion dish made by a Thai guy?

I think there’s no such thing as “authentic”, unless it’s McDonald’s or some chain restaurant in which the dishes are standardized and are all cooked the same way. That’s why I prefer to use the terms “representative” and “not representative”.

The idea that home-cooked food can be “authentic” doesn’t make sense. It’s not like brand name clothing that you can check the authenticity of by looking inside for the label.

Again, the notion of “authenticity” is based on the assumption that culture is static and frozen in time, instead of dynamic and fluid. Chili peppers, which are used in Thai food, were not originally native to Thailand; they were first imported from the Americas after Spanish colonization. Basically, white colonizers are partly responsible for contributing chili peppers to Thai curries. (Oh no, Thai people have no culture! (sarcasm))

Cultural exchange isn’t a recent phenomenon. It’s been here since ancient times even.

What do you mean by “traditional”?

Can anyone recommend any noteworthy articles/essays regarding the “Chinese” restaurant phenomenon?

There is Jennifer 8. Lee’s book, The Fortune Cookie Chronicles, and the corresponding blog.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 5:57 pm ¶
Yvette wrote:

I wonder if anyone here has ever watched shows like Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern. Basically, he travels around the world eating foods that (to many North Americans) would be considered strange and unusual. Things like insects, brains, still-beating hearts, animal testicles, and the like. The show is on the Travel Channel so I suppose the point is the “exotic” locales he visits and not really the food, but I still sense that the show is making a connection between a food being “bizarre” and it’s reflection of cultural “authenticity.”

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 6:07 pm ¶
Asada wrote:

this is strange!

Seems, eating Chinese food is associated with lower class American Blacks ( who sometimes frequent take out food from Chinese resturants in the city).

I will say , however, nearly everyone knows about General Tso’s chicken. Even ppl who dont reguarly eat from Chinese take out resturants.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 6:34 pm ¶
Terrie wrote:

Restructure, that’s the idea that always comes out of the foodie discussion of “authentic” food. It’s a nonsense word in that context. My favorite comment to ever come out of it was one guy’s proclimation of “If I put Cheez Whiz on Wonder Bread, that’s authentic Mexican food. Because I’m an authentic Mexican.” Of course, someone immediately countered that it couldn’t be authentic Mexican food, because Cheez Whiz and Wonder Bread aren’t actually food.

“Traditional,” in the context foodies tend to use it, means food that is rooted in the historyof a culture in terms of techniques and ingredients (”history” generally meaning more than a generation old) and has shown it’s staying power.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 6:41 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:

“Traditional,” in the context foodies tend to use it, means food that is rooted in the historyof a culture in terms of techniques and ingredients (”history” generally meaning more than a generation old) and has shown it’s staying power.

Interesting. Then chop suey and fortune cookies are traditional foods.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 6:55 pm ¶
Winn wrote:

@ Lxy,

* Slow clap*. Thank you for bringing up the power differential inherent in this discussion. The way food has been used to segregrate, otherize, marginalize and exoticize ethnic and racial minorities in the US is a substantial portion of the OP’s fundamental point. Although there may be some validity to the post-modern argument, at times it can be an intellectually snobbish way of disempowering those who may not have the luxury of lauding “fluidity” and “hybridity”, especially when both qualities can be used as weapons against dismantling racist structures and critiquing social and cultural inequality.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 7:26 pm ¶
Terrie wrote:

Some foodies would say they are traditional Chinese-American foods, since they are rooted in the intersection of American and Chinese cultures, as well as the influence of ingredient availability and the neccesity of substitution .

I would note that many food-types, myself included, would agree with some aspects of the article. While our POV bias means we don’t think about the racial aspects of it (because you can’t eat it), we generally agree that the average American is disgustingly ill-informed about food from other parts of the world. ANY part of the world.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 7:59 pm ¶
Free wrote:

I have to co-sign with Monie. I’m surprised that Racialicious would post this essay in its present form. The constant White People, White People, White People.. wow, that’s racist.

Chinese, Italian, Mexican and other “ethnic” foods served in the United States are mostly inauthentic because immigrants going way back had to change and invent new dishes to suit “American” tastes. This phenomena continues: what is a “wrap” but a burrito? Chinese food declared unhealthy although billions of healthy people in China and Hong Kong enjoy it daily. And people don’t realize that it’s the American diet masquerading as Chinese food that’s putting on the pounds. It’s all part of the process of assimilation.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 8:34 pm ¶
justinslot wrote:

Just to reiterate this point here–I mean, is the claim here that white America is the only group who has no clue about the origins of American Chinese food, while black and brown America are completely sophisticated consumers who turn up their noses at pork fried rice and only frequent the restaurants in Chinatown? Because that would be a ridiculous claim to make. I doubt even a majority of yellow America knows that General Tso’s is as American as spam musubi.

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 9:59 pm ¶
Eli wrote:

When I first came to Australia, this white woman who was training me at work just started (without my asking or even mentioning food in even the vaguest of terms), telling me about where I could get ribs, and greens and shit.

Rob. I found that incredibly offensive. Because it is. Your statement of if you are ___ ethnicity and if you hold up your family’s traditions contain two bloody big IFs.

And as someone who has been on the receiving end of this treatment, more times than I care to count, it is offensive.

Assuming someone can speak on the topic of George Bush is a world of difference from assuming that because I am black I like chicken and watermelon.

Just because people “mean no harm” or “think they’re being helpful” or “nice” doesn’t mean they aren’t ALSO being racist.

How about asking people what they like from a clean slate rather than coming at them from tired old stereotypical pre-conceived and yes, racist, angles?

It’s not so difficult to say to someone, “What kind of food do you like?” than to say, “I like grits!”

Posted 07 Jan 2009 at 11:02 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:

@ rob:
“butter chicken is common in india”

Then I’m assuming I know it under another name because I highly doubt an authentic Indian dish would be called butter chicken.

” I really hope that food does not become a politicised issue”

Too late. It already is one. I haven’t read this yet but have been told its a great read – an essay by, I believe Chandra Mohanty (though I may be wrong on the author) about food and politics. I’ll have to find this reference at some point. Does anyone else know what I’m talking about?

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 12:29 am ¶
Afro-chan wrote:

This article makes me chuckle. As an American living in Japan (who also loves cooking) it never occurred to me that the food you eat in many “ethnic” restaurants authentic. If the owners are foreign I tend to ask, “So, what do YOU eat when you’re at home.” There is usually lots of laughter from that statement and then a learning experience.

In the [local] Japanese Jr. High Social Studies textbook on the page about US culture it shows, denim jeans, black men dancing “gansta style” to hip hop, and it is topped of with a picture showing a plate of french fries, hamburger and Coca-cola.

Eli- I understand where you are coming from. However, food is a great way to educate. It opens up the doors to so much more. Since I have been living in Japan I often hold cooking classes about American cuisine (yes we do have it) or host dinners at my house. Through food, I have been able to talk about various indigenous cultures in the US plus how food is affected in certain areas by whichever immigrants settled there and vice-versa. People are shocked to find out about our diverse culture, rich history and the such even for a young country. It is amazing how a happy belly can enlighten minds. Doors are opened to talk about more serious topics such as stereotyping, xenophobia and the like.

My only gripe with this article is the “white America” references. I think this misunderstanding about Chinese food crosses all colors. Many people of color unfortunately go the “chop suey, ching-chong route”. Lastly, let me mention, many of these restaurants in an attempt to market do often tout their menu as “authentic” Cantonese or Szechuan cuisine. Those adjectives added to cuisine don’t help.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 2:01 am ¶
Afro-chan wrote:

Oh, and might I add a point that I think was overlooked about “Americanized” food. When people move to other countries many times they want to or only know how to cook the foods they grew up with. Keep in mind certain, produce, legumes and/or meats are not available in all countries. Therefore many people may have moved to the US and tried cooking native foods using whatever was on hand that looked/tasted close to what they had back home. Certainly this has altered some dishes but it becomes ingrained in the present culture. Please come to Japan and try my ‘collards a la Nippon’. Ha! Try making an American southern apple pie with a fuji apple. It just doesn’t taste quite right.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 2:58 am ¶
Kate wrote:

also: tomato beef chow mein. totally americanized chinese food (or chinesified american food?) and totally delicious…from my perspective

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 3:15 am ¶
Kate wrote:

Adding another note while I was still thinking about this: I had the very disappointing experience of going to one of my favorite Japanese food restaurants (in America) and looking forward to my delicious meal. Then I was served Chinese long grain rice in a bowl as the accompaniment to my yellow tail sashimi. I asked the waiter, “Why are you serving Chinese rice now? What happened to your Japanese rice?” His reply, “Most Americans like to eat this rice instead. It’s more popular. If you want sushi rice, it’s extra.” : ( I hope other Japanese restaurants stick to their guns and keep serving short grain rice. Here is one anecdotal example of Americans Americanizing their “ethnic” food.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 4:20 am ¶
gatamala wrote:

thx for the link Restructure

***

we generally agree that the average American is disgustingly ill-informed about food from other parts of the world. ANY part of the world.

I guess that would be why “foodies” sell beans and rice for $10 a plate in DC.

Besides, is that uniquely American? I can assure you that the average ___ is as is ill-informed.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 10:58 am ¶
rob wrote:

sobia, re butter chickes ‘authentic’ name… English is actually an official language of india. Given the size and diversity of the country it helps the indians to communicate with one another. There are kliterally hundreds of languages in the country. Most places i went to had the menu in the local language and english, for the benefit of out of town indians far more so than any stray foreigner, tired and hungery on the road to manali! And butter chicken was butter chicken from the north to the south.

Eli, Im sure the intention was just to help you settle in! Australians are famous for their brash manners and although the woman may have intended to insult you, if she was just being friendly why is it such a pain for you to say, oh i dont really like ribs, but please tell me where i can find some kangaroo steaks!

If the woman was just being friendly then you have accomplished nothing by getting upset and maybe lost an oppourtunity to make a friend at work.

If i had a pound for everytime someone found out i was english and started talking about football or cricket i would be rich enough to buy drinks for you all, but as i said before, im generally glad for the company and conversation such questions result in.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 11:27 am ¶
Ugly Deaf Muslim Punk Gurl! wrote:

Don’t you guys just hate it when nasty, horny perverts make sexual jokes about non-white women, comparing their body parts to food from their countries?

The other day, I was reading the news and came across a “saucy” photo spread of Ziyi Zhang and comparing her “fine” ass to Chinese food. It was just ridiculous.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 11:35 am ¶
bdsista wrote:

Love that comment about the mambo sauce! Yes, it is distinctly DC/MD/VA metro, because I live in Columbia and some places have it and some don’t.

But the same thing is true in Britain with Indian food. I went to a restaurant and they told us that the food was seasoned to suit the palates and dishes were created to suit the tastes of English consumers. What was real funny to me, was that when I tried to order Egg Foo Young in the UK, I had an big choice of different kinds of fried rice (good), but had a real hard time getting them to tell me if it came with gravy. Eventually the guy asked me did I mean sauce, and I was like yes sauce, and he then related, brown sauce, oyster sauce, etc. But nothing sounded like that brown gravy that cools to a gelatinous mass I am used to on my egg foo young. So I ordered something else. I told the guy at the chinese place, he might want to get hip to that gravy thing, it would increase business. So in the UK -no gravy.
At least I have found Soul food to be Soul food, and I would not have been offended if someone told me where to get good greens and ribs and mac and cheese. BTW: You cannot get corn bread in England. You have to make it from scratch with polenta mix.
Great article! I really learned a lot, I find all of this fascinating!

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 12:15 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

Eli, i can see how the watermelon references might upset you. it does seem very cliched and might not be made in a spirit of friendly interest, but ‘ribs and greens and shit’ may just sound like american food to a non sophisticated australian. i never thought ribs was ‘black food’ i always associate ribs with fred flintstone and good ole boys. You lives and you learns

And i have a question, if i were to come to a party you were throwing, and the understanding was that all the guests would bring something nice to share,and i knew some of our mutual friends who loved watermelon would be attending, would you take it as a personal insult when i arrived at your door with a juicy melon under each arm?

You see i have been reading this blog for some time now and have become far more aware of the issues which affect and interest contributors, so i dont think i would bring the melons lest someone construe it as a malicious political statement. A situation sadly to the detriment of anyone at the party who would haved liked some watermelon and an unfortunate setback (i think) in the way humans react around one another. suspicion and defensiveness should not be the default positions we engage the world with.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 12:30 pm ¶
rob wrote:

bdsista, gravy in the uk is what you put on your roast dinner or over a toad in the hole! It does cool to a gelatinous mass though, so maybe you are having your chinese food with what i like on potatoes and beef! I cant quite see it myself but as long as you are enjoying it.

ps i have been meaning to say for ages that this is really a topic for everyone…

…to really get their teeth into!
hahahhahahahah!
sorry.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 12:36 pm ¶
rob wrote:

post 104 was mine, whoops.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 12:50 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:

@ Rob:

I’m South Asian dude. You don’t have to tell me about India. I already know what you told me. And English is an Indian language POST-colonization. I am desi (South Asian) and I have never heard of any actual desi foods with non-desi names. I’m thinking in South Asia butter chicken could be a variation of murgh makhani (literally butter chicken). Anyways, this butter chicken conversation is getting boring. Its just that most Indians/Pakistanis I know here in Canada have had the same sense about this particular dish that I have.

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 2:30 pm ¶
eli wrote:

Why is it so difficult to understand (on a blog about race, no less) that making assumptions about someone based on their race is a not good thing?

Also, Rob, talking to you about cricket because you’re English is different from talking to me about chicken and watermelon because I’m black.

One’s a nation, the other’s a race.

It’s presumptive, rude, and, yes, offensive.

The only thing I lost out on by taking offense at that woman’s actions was having yet another stupid, casually racist person in my life. Score!

Posted 08 Jan 2009 at 3:12 pm ¶
annie wrote:

i’m chinese-american and here’s some typical food i’ve eaten at home

frog legs
steamed eggplant
stir fried vegetables – bok choy, carrots, broccoli, corn, all mixed together
tofu swimming in soy sauce with a whole fish on top
pan fried fish
chow mein
tong mein ( noodles in soup)
lots of soup that has herbs and other ingredients i can’t name in english

this is definitely not a whole list but i do get a little annoyed when ‘chinese food’ is called unhealthy. it’s a generalization since most americans eat the fried, greasy stuff not at all like the stuff my mom cooks at home. oh and i love dim sum which is cantonese/hong kong in origin and fairly authentic i think.

Posted 09 Jan 2009 at 1:21 am ¶
Spinster wrote:

Sumayyah Talibah wrote:

Wow! Very informative. The things they never teach us in school.

Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 8:22 am ¶
_______________

Definitely. You learn something new every day. Thanks for posting.

Posted 10 Jan 2009 at 11:01 pm ¶
Monica wrote:

Good stuff. But I found the emphasis on *white* American mythology regarding Chinese food to be…distracting and problematic. Do you really mean to suggest that Americans of color don’t go to the $1 Chines place and order General Tso’s without a severe crisis of authenticity?

I don’t think so.

I get (and appreciate) the point, but the overuse of ‘white’ as an adjective detracted from your argument.

Posted 11 Jan 2009 at 4:04 am ¶
A.J. Luxton wrote:

I loved Jennifer 8. Lee’s book The Fortune Cookie Chronicles and I thought it gave a great, sympathetic, wide-angle view of everything and everyone it dealt with – Chinese food in China, Chinese restaurants in America, the Japanese origin of the fortune cookie (and the connection between Chinese and Japanese communities in pre-war San Francisco) and the immigrant families who run Chinese restaurants today.

When I was in China, I’d say the main commonality between American Chinese food and the food I ate in the school cafeteria was the eggplant. I was, indeed, shocked by how similar it was to what I might find in a corner chop-suey-and-General-Tso’s restaurant! On the other side of things, the number and variety of vegetable dishes everywhere I went – the school cafeteria, the restaurants, the street food stalls, in several different provinces – amazed me (I’m mostly vegetarian) compared to the options in the US. There are many things I can’t get here in Portland, though there are also some that I can, if I know where to look. I’m fairly lucky to have lived in diverse city environments for enough of my life that I’d had at least some authentic Chinese food before going to China.

Posted 12 Jan 2009 at 4:25 am ¶
Therese wrote:

Funny, I just had fish (don’t know the English name for the type) and broccoli (of the “Western” kind, not “Chinese broccoli) last night at my local Canto diner here in Hong Kong. Western broccoli may be from the Italy, but it’s enjoyed throughout China, where it’s referred to as “Western broccoli” or “green cauliflower” (and generally sold around the latter). Beef and broccoli is also on the menu, along with steam broccoli, stir-fried broccoli and garlic, and other wonderful combinations.

China, like the US, has been so good at adopting other things and Sinofying it into their own thing, be it food or words or any other thing. Take, for example, “French toast” (also called “Western toast”), a Chinese version of “pain perdu”. It’s nothing like “pain perdu”, usually made with fresh white bread, cut into thick pieces, dipped into a batter, pan-fried, and served with massive hunks of butter and golden syrup. Sometimes it’s two thinner pieces of white bread, with a slathering of (chunky) peanut butter inside, and prepared as above. It’s not “French toast” as anyone in the places where such is popular knows it. My French mother was shocked to see it on every Hong Kong restaurant’s menu and even more shocked when she’d ask the server or chef (with my translating). The common reply was essentially, “That’s how it is here! Just like Chinese food is different where you are from!” And they were right.

I’m familiar with Jennifer 8. Lee’s work, but I find it hopelessly dull and banal when compared to the actual joy of Chinese food — that anything can be adopted into something wonderful, and just because it’s altered for foreign (e.g. American, British, XXXX) tastes, it’s still Chinese food, made with the long-tested Chinese methods, perhaps with local ingredients. And Chinese people do the same, with their local spins on other country’s dishes. People and companies adapt where they go — that’s why there are shrimp burgers on rice patties served at McDonald’s; egg tarts, soup, and mushroom-covered rice at KFC; and seafood pizza with thousand island dressing served at Pizza Hut in the China region.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 8:13 pm ¶
outofafrica wrote:

I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, and the whole food issue is very complicated here! We have so many “ethnic” restaurants, and most have to some extent adopted ideas and flavours from eachother. We have some chinese restaurants that provide fast foodish type fare, where I see a lot of both asian and caucasion people meeting. At other restaurants I have been to with people who haved lived in/visited china seem to serve about 50:50 westernized chinese food to traditional chinese receipes (as interperated by the restaurant’s chef of course). Kind of like most greek or thai or italian restaurants I’ve been to.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 5:30 am ¶
Adrianna wrote:

I’m Haitian and our food is spicy I can’t tolerate spiciness, because my stomach is fragile when I used to go out to restaurant with my one of my best friend who is Indian she would always ask the waiter to the chef to prepare my food the American way she would ask that hers be prepared Indian style.
I’m in Haiti and they serve us Americanized Chinese food Go figure !People here must think it authentic Chinese food. Food, culture and all sort of stuff travel. t Our food is very French based and some dishes are similar to some Scottish dishes like fried pig blood maybe the Scotts don’t fry their. So is our language, Our flags, and the classist system we live in. America like the Caribbean is just a melting pot of everything. Creole my second language is based on French, Spanish, English, Taino,Portuguese, and lot’s of other language. That is the world we live in. But I get not wanting to be associated with food. When I say I’m Haitian usually they ask me if I practiced Vodoo it really pisses me off!

Posted 24 Jan 2009 at 5:58 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

Therese’s comment was spot on! I’m Chinese myself and from Hong Kong, where most restaurants/ large food chains adopt and do spin offs of foods from other countries. Most people know what they are eating are not entirely authentic and know what they are getting are just stylized versions to suit the local palette.

The ‘French toast’ example that Therese mentioned was another great example. IN HK, most western food seems also to be lumped into one big category, for example, unless you went to an authentic pizzeria or any other more upscale restaurant which stated specifically their origins of their served food, any cafe/ restaurant/ eatery that serves westernized foods serves a form of hybrid combination. Asian foods, on the other hand are served quite distinctly, although that probably has to do with the fact that the locals are more in the know about the food of their other Asian counterparts.

One last not entirely related comment, I always thought that ‘Chop Suey’ was strange, because it translated into ’scraps’ for me more than just ‘mixed pieces’, and I always wondered why people would want scraps or leftovers instead of a full meal?!

Posted 22 Mar 2009 at 12:10 pm ¶