Series Introduction: The Things We Do to Each Other/The Things We Do to Ourselves

by Latoya Peterson

When I initially thought about the Things We Do to Each Other series, I had one specific idea in mind: that someone needs to start discussing the problems that happen when trying to build a multiracial coalition toward ending racism.

As a contributor, now editor, and moderator of Racialicious, one of the hardest things for us to confront on this site is the biases we hold toward one another. Most of the time, our focus is on the functional form of racism in our society – white supremacy. Far from the archtype of cross burning and people in hoods, white supremacy permeates our society because whiteness is the benchmark that all minorities are held against. Be it beauty standards, racism in lending, gentrification, or anything else, our perceived differences – and the stereotypes that accompany them – are the main hindrance to advancement. As long as whiteness remains the default, the synonym for normalcy, the goal of assimilation, we will struggle.

And yet, it is all too easy for us to struggle separately.

We stay segregated in our own tight-knit communities, working on the racism that directly impacts us – but we do not often give a thought to the struggles of others. Moreover, some of us have internalized some of the same harmful stereotypes perpetuated against other groups – and we act upon them. While minorities in America do not collectively have the power required to oppress one another, we do actively and effectively waste time arguing over who has it worse, who has a claim to certain ideas, who should be the first in line to cast off the yoke of racism and enter into the untainted version of the American Dream.

We even have a phrase for this: Oppression Olympics. And let me tell you, in the last year and some that I’ve been writing here, I’ve seen the reason why we coined this term in the first place. Generally speaking, arguing about who has it worse or who “owes” who is a quick way to send a conversation into a tailspin.

However, the phrase “Oppression Olympics” is flawed as it leaves out one of the key struggles we have while building solidarity. Last May, I pointed to Andrea Smith’s essay “Heteropatriarchy and the Three Pillars of White Supremacy: Rethinking Women of Color Organizing.”

I summarized:

In her essay, Smith outlines three scenarios in which people of color are coming together to organize and meet with conflict. One scenario revolves around a group of women and whether or not Arab and Latina women should identify as women of color if they are classified as white in their countries or pass as white in the states. The next scenario describes some of the arguments put forth when discussing Native Americans (i.e., “since tribes now have gaming, Native peoples are not longer ‘oppressed.’”) The last scenario involves a multiracial coalition which wants to stop the “black/white binary” of racial discussion but “rel[ies] on strategies and cultural motifs developed by the Black Civil Rights struggle in the United States.”

Smith discusses why these scenarios cause friction, hitting the nail on the head with her words in the next section (bold emphasis mine):

These incidents, which happen quite frequently in “women of color” or “people of color” political organizing struggles, are often explained as a consequence of “oppression olympics.” That is to say, one problem we have is that we are too busy fighting over who is more oppressed. In this essay, I want to argue that these incidents are not so much the result of “oppression olympics” but are more about how we have inadequately framed “women of color” or “people of color” politics. That is, the premise behind much of “women of color” organizing is that women from communities vicitimized by white supremacy should unite together around their shared oppression. This framework might be represented by a diagram of five overlapping circles, each marked “Native women, Black women, Arab/Muslim women, Latinas, and Asian American women, overlapping like a Venn diagram.

This framework has proven to be limited for women of color and people of color organizing. First, it tends to presume that our communities have been impacted by white supremacy in the same way. Consequently, we often assume that all of our communities will share similar strategies for liberation. In fact, however, our strategies often run into conflict. For example, one strategy that many people in US-born communities of color adopt, in order to advance economically out of impoverished communities, is to join the military. We then become complicit in oppressing and colonizing communities from other countries. Meanwhile, people from other countries often adopt the strategy of moving to the United States to advance economically, without considering their complicity in settling on the lands of indigenous peoples that are being colonized by the United States.

Consequently, it may be more helpful to adopt an alternative framework for women of color and people of color organizing. I call one such framework the “Three Pillars of White Supremacy.” This framework does not assume that racism and white supremacy is enacted in a singular fashion; rather, white supremacy is constituted by separate and distinct, but still interrelated, logics. Envision three pillars, one labeled Slavery/Capitalism, another labeled Genocide/Capitalism, and the last one labeled Orientalism/War, as well as arrows connecting each of the pillars together.

“That is, the premise behind much of “women of color” organizing is that women from communities vicitimized by white supremacy should unite together around their shared oppression.”

We can apply this to all groups – the idea that we should all unite around our shared oppression is a flawed premise.

In addition, I’ll point out one other thing – that groups do not always stand in solidarity with each other. This leads to tension, as many different groups use the tactics and legacy of the Civil Rights movement to organize or explain their cause, without standing in solidarity with those who were on the front lines of the movement. And while many different groups of people – of all races, mind you – were involved within the Civil Rights movements, most of the references drawn today lead back to the black struggle for equality. And it is interesting to see groups of people liken their struggle to Civil Rights, while at the same time behaving in a way that is either racist toward blacks, or indifferent to the current issues and struggling that still continue to this day.

This was drawn into crystal clear focus with the recent passage of Proposition 8 in California. The aftermath of the proposition was an exercise in laying the blame, with blacks bearing the brunt of the fury. The idea in many sectors was that black homophobia was to blame for the passage of prop 8, and many comparisons were drawn to the Civil Rights Movement and how blacks “owed” gays their loyalty – after all, we did just elect Obama. As explored in editorial after editorial, the narrative eventually emerged that there were too many assumptions on all sides: that blacks would automatically recognize the movement for gay rights as kin to the struggle for civil rights; that an exit poll taken in California could explain the machinations of all of black America; that counter marketing to the Yes on 8 campaign was done on a limited scale, while the Yes on 8 campaign had been advertising in targeted media for over a year; that one group can owe another anything, politically – especially when this trade off was not discussed before hand by organizers of the respective communities, nor was there an alliance made where we would be expected to stand together. (And obviously, basic human decency doesn’t count here – if more people believed in basic human decency, there would be no need for this site.)

It is within digesting all the Prop 8 fallout, and watching so many prepared to believe in the worst stereotypes of African Americans, that it occurred to me some voices were missing.

Namely, the voices of those who are black and identify as GLBT. One Cannick editorial cannot encompass the whole, and for years and years, people like Monica Roberts have been advocating for increased outreach to communities of color. In a recent piece on Proposition 8, she explains why the blacks vs. gays meme is a foolhardy idea to keep pushing:

Yes, we African-American GLBT peeps and bloggers are painfully aware of the homohaters that share our ethnic heritage. We never denied that nor are we defending them as some of you have insultingly charged. We have pointed out ad nauseum for years the danger of letting the perception that ‘this is a white gay movement’ take root or the Black fundamentalist ‘they’re hijacking the 60’s Civil Rights Movement’ spin go unchallenged. The ‘whitewashing’ of gay history has denied us concrete examples of African-American gay peeps we can point to besides Bayard Rustin who have made major contributions to building not only the 60’s Civil Rights movement, but the GLBT movement as well.

The failure of some white gay peeps to engage in issues of importance to African-Americans combined with the failure to forcefully denounce racism within your own ranks, loudly call for ‘incremental progress’ on transgender people’s rights as you take a hypocritical ‘damn the torpedoes’ approach to marriage equality has led to a unflattering perception that the only peeps you care about are yourselves.

And yet, while Monica’s words were aimed toward the organizers of the mainstream LGBT movement, most of us also know that our own communities also do their own fair share of othering – we push away those of us who do not conform to whatever standards we have set as well, and generally require silence as the price to pay for full participation in the community.

Often times, the Things We Do to Each Other overlap with The Things We Do to Ourselves.

And with that, I announce the launch of both series.

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  1. links for 2008-12-10 « natthedem’s domain on 10 Dec 2008 at 10:00 am

    [...] Racialicious – The Things We Do to Each Other/The Things We Do to Ourselves [...]

Comments

  1. Slush wrote:

    What I’ve noticed in my last few years in Washington DC is that ‘civil rights’ means wildly different things to different people. And that the definition has some clear connotation to what color that person is.

    By which I mean, people of color and particularly black Americans think of civil rights as relating to the civil rights movement of MLK and others, and the end of segregation, the anti-discrimination laws, etc. For unspeakably obvious reasons.

    White people, on the other hand, are much more likely to have forgotten this meaning of civil rights. Much more eager to swallow the idea of a post-racial society, they’re tired of civil rights being about black people, and have already redefined civil rights to be more related to concerns about government wiretapping and consumer protection, issues that relate to ‘everyone’. Because we already agreed everyone’s equal, so the 20th century idea of civil rights is getting obsolete.

    This is just my perception and maybe it’s totally skewed. But if it is somewhat accurate, then it brings anti-racist activists and gay-rights activists and feminists back to a point they’re all really tired of making, which is that our society is not equal, racism, sexism, and bigotry aren’t even close to over, and the civil rights movement as a movement to stop discrimination still happening as before, only with cagier and more evasive obstacles.

    So I guess my point is to agree that minorities and oppressed communities do need to sort out and identify where we do have common ground and where we don’t, without making dumb assumptions, but when we’ve done that, let’s not make the assumption that the rest of the country has been paying attention or grown with us, because they probably haven’t. In fact, they’ve been getting everyone fired up about eminent domain and private property rights.

  2. CVT wrote:

    I like the concept behind that book – the LAST great civil rights schedule. Because we’re post-racial now.

    Holy sh–. It never ends, does it?

    I’ve written about the limited view of minority movements before, so I’ll just drop a link. But I will just say here that I think the biggest reason so many movements fail is because of their inability to translate their experiences and viewpoints into something that someone who does not share that viewpoint can understand. Just a case of constantly preaching to “the choir” – which is a minority population, which obviously means that “the choir” alone can never be enough to mount a change . . .

    http://choptensils.blogspot.com/2008/07/on-gray-area-in-between.html

  3. Dee Galloway wrote:

    THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I’ve been feeling like a lone voice in the wilderness in my attempts to promote dialogue in my gay and my black communities about the anti-black backlash in the wake of Prop 8. “What are we doing to each other and what are we doing to ourselves?” I keep asking. The silence and utter lack of response from both of “my” communities has been deafening. Denial is apparently, just a river in Egypt.

    I am a Black Lesbian who is a person of faith, and a citizen of the United States of America.

    Although I’m gay, I think LGBTQIA people should strive for something higher, something less meaningless, and something more functional than mere marriage. Still, I grieve the grievous wrong committed against us, yet again, with the stripping away of rights we should not have had to fight for in the first place.

    As a lesbian, I’ve always been sickened by the fact that many (not all) in my gay community continue to believe that these grievous wrongs are justification for committing the same vitriolic bashing and hate crimes against others that have been committed against us.

    As a black woman, I’ve always been sickened by the fact that many (not all) in my black community continue to believe that my harmless love of another woman is somehow a threat to their harmless love of a member of a different gender.

    As a person of faith (not Christian, not Muslim, not Mormon), I’ve always been sickened by the fact that many (not all) within my faith community continue to believe that my harmless love of another woman is somehow an abomination and a threat to their worldview.

    These things were true before 11/4/08; I’m not surprised that they’re still true today; I won’t be surprised if they’re still true in the next decade or millennium.

    I’m not surprised that Prop 8 and other similar measures passed – equality in the U.S. has been one of the great urban myths of my lifetime, just as it was in the lifetime of my ancestors.

    I’m not surprised that my gay community is behaving as if they are ignorant of the fact that black people are among us, and that an attack against the black community is an attack against me, your sister.

    I’m not surprised that my black community is behaving as if they are ignorant of the fact that gay people are among us, and that an attack against the gay community is an attack against me, your sister.

    I’m not surprised that my faith community is behaving as if they are ignorant of the fact that black, gay people are among us and that an attack against the black and/or gay communities is an attack against me, your sister.

    Moreover, I’m not surprised that the denial of the personhood and vitriolic blaming of and attacks against “the other” continues and continues and continues. We humans have always behaved as though we are ignorant of the fact that each and every one of the other people around us is human, too.

    I expect to die unsurprised, and I don’t expect to be proven wrong. But I won’t know, will I, unless something changes before my death? Can it? Will it?

    Surprise me, PLEASE! But do it soon.

  4. queerhapa wrote:

    I was in the middle of reading this when I heard on the radio that the Ecuadorian man attacked in Brooklyn early Sunday morning just died of his injuries. Sigh. He was walking arm-in-arm with his brother when they were attacked and had anti-gay and anti-Latino epithets shouted at them.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/nyregion/09assault.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion

    Another tragic example of the intersection of oppressions and the need for coalition politics.

  5. pazenlavida wrote:

    This is a great series and I’m glad that this discussion is happening.

  6. Matt wrote:

    Sounds great!

  7. livininphilly wrote:

    Thank you Latoya for this. I was wondering if Racialicious would do a post about black gay and lesbian people in the aftermath of prop 8. Our voices seemed to be drowned out in the shit storm that followed CNN’s exit poll results and Dan Savage’s mean spirited editorial.
    The cover of the advocate was so hurtful and problematic. I was appalled when I first saw it on my bookstores shelf. I must admit though I haven’t been too surprised that the gay communities racism has been showing.
    I am an out and proud black lesbian and I hold a minor in LGBT studies from the University of Maryland. It never set right with me that the gay community co-opted a lot of the civil rights rhetoric and strategies while either overtly or covertly excluding LGBT ppl of color, especially black. The fact that there are several Black Prides around the country is a testament to the fact that black gay and lesbian ppl often feel alienated from the community. I have almost exclusively attended only Black Pride events since coming out. Not b/c I don’t want to go to the regular prides but b/c I often feel like I am put on display when I am in predominantly white gay settings.
    The whitewashing of the gay civil rights movement has also been a sore spot for me. Stonewall happened in 1969 and the fighters weren’t just white gay men. Lesbians, people of color and trans people were there and fought for the right to be who they were although from many histories on the subject you wouldn’t know that. Some of the early groundbreaking texts that shared the experiences of gay people such as Another Mother Tongue by Judy Grahn focused on the history of white gay people. You know one of the most frustrating things about my area of research was that even though I tried my hardest the experiences of black LGBTQ ppl was affectively made invisible. I know that there are several factors that contributed to this invisibility but in this day and age the erasure of experience shouldn’t be allowed under any circumstances. I think about what ppl will say in the future about prop 8 and how it will definitely be written that black and gay people were at odds. I think it’s our responsibility in this moment to make sure that this won’t be the story that is told.
    Furthermore, I personally don’t use the term gay civil rights b/c of the history of the term “civil rights.” I identify as black first and foremost and b/c of that I cannot extend the term civil rights to other movements. I’ve thought a lot about this and it seems as if the context of how the civil rights movement came about is too unique. Plus using the term civil rights for some of the things that ppl now consider civil rights diminishes the memory of the initial struggle. I know that others may disagree but if instead of identifying equality movements as civil rights why can we not call them “human right” movements. Calling something a human right immediately levels the playing field in some ways. If we are all human beings then how can I deny a human right to another human being? This may be too idealistic for some but it’s how I’ve made sense of it all. Especially b/c I know some black ppl who feel strongly that gay ppl shouldn’t be using the term civil rights b/c the struggle isn’t the same, which is true. But there are enough similarities b/c ultimately each group is fighting to live a life that allows them to be themselves authentically and fully.
    Wow, this is a great topic Latoya. I want to go on and on about this b/c it’s a discussion that needs to be had.

  8. Fatemeh wrote:

    Oh my gawd.

    GREAT INTRO POST! I can’t wait to read the series. Maybe I’ll even get spurred into a post…

    And Dee? ROCK ON, LADY!

  9. Elanor Brachwasser wrote:

    Amazing. I’ve been reading this blog for months, though I haven’t commented until now. Anyway, thanks, Latoya, for writing this so well! I’m a white, disabled lesbian who feels passionately about learning as much as I can when it comes to human rights and oppression, especially in areas where I come up privileged. And since the majority of my community is made up of PoC, me and my queer peeps have been thinking a lot about where queer people of color come into all the Prop 8 backlash, in particular.

  10. Jesse wrote:

    In fairness, the article underneath that race-baiting cover is actually quite nuanced and acknowledges many of the things this website has pointed out here and in other articles. It does toss around the term Gay Civil Rights a lot, though I don’t see this as an act of blatant appropriation, per se. Rather, it is born of ignorance of the fact that the Black Civil Rights Movement is ongoing and that racism is a powerful, pervasive force in this country to this day. The article cautions against using incendiary phrases like Gay is the New Black for fear of alienating LGBTQ’s and of color just as Racialicious and its commentors have described. The cover is probably the fault of the Advocate editorial board, whose first mission, after all, is to sell magazines (their mission somewhat succeeded since the cover has been featured on this website ). I’ve meandered a bit. My point is this, we in the white gay community must learn not to treat our black brothers and sisters as a single, group-thinking block. However, you must also realize that not all white homosexual men and women enjoy the broad, racist comedy of Shirley Q. Liquor. Some of us, I know not how many, are fighting the bigotry of our own community towards others just as much as we are that of other communities towards us.

  11. poettree wrote:

    In light of the post calling all other movements “human rights.” I’m curious to know what those of you who identify with the term “civil rights” with the Black Civil Rights movement would call the other movements inspired by the Black Civil Rights movement’s accomplishments in the 60’s, the work done by other people of color Latinos, Chicanos, and Asian Americans in the US (here I leave out American Indians and Native Hawai’ians since their work also involves ending colonization, so perhaps we should talk about that separately…or maybe not.). Do those count as “Civil Rights movements” within this context?

  12. jvansteppes wrote:

    Just when you thought The Advocate couldn’t piss you off even more…

  13. kamala wrote:

    I also would like to hear further discussion of the use of the term “civil rights.” I am trying to think of analogous battles over phrases and terms; it brings to mind trademark law, and the desire to have a monopoly on language, which does not seem fair or helpful to anyone still struggling for legal and social recognition.

    Doesn’t the term “civil” simply denote that which falls under the legal and political framework of a society? so a demand for “civil” rights is a demand to be seen equally under the law, right? Cannot anyone under the sun reach for this goal?

    Perhaps Civil Rights Movement is the historically specific entity, while civil rights is something everyone can pursue?

    i’m just trying to understand, as someone without a stake in american history. I attended english-medium schools and have always been fluent in english, but these distinctions being drawn seem very subtle to me, viewed from far away. would appreciate more information about this debate.

  14. zackboston wrote:

    I think your thoughts here are very important because they are relevant to grassroots organizing efforts going on right now. For the past five years, I have been doing ethnographic studies with the New Majority in Boston, looking at what and how people learn by trying to make change in their community. But the main analytical approach I originally developed combined Chela Sandoval’s work on US 3rd World Feminist organizing and the critical adult education work of Stephen Brookfield, who makes attempts to decenter critical theory approaches without discounting them entirely.

    Through all of this — from my own organizing experience and “literature labor”, I have become convinced that reflection on WOC organizing struggles yields the most insights for understanding the kinds of organizing efforts that will effectively allow POC to form effective coalitions.

    Craig Hickman recently quoted James Baldwin on identity in JJP and I have been thinking a lot with this quote from one of his books I have not read:

    “identity would seem to be the garment with which one covers the nakedness of the self: in which case it is best that the garment be loose, a little like the robes of the desert, through which one’s nakedness can . . . be. . . sometimes discerned. This trust in one’s nakedness is all that gives one the power to change robes.”

    Coalition-building seems to me to require this looseness, requires being able not only acknowlege multiple identities (including one that is as general as shared humanity of all), but to acknowledge — as you lift up — the different impacts of racism even as we switch among identities.

    Most of the work I have seen around serious coalition and single group antiracist movement building uses the language and insights of politics — speaking of strategies, etc. Most of the stuff that people write about identity in education is so technical in its language and requires such a base of theory background so as to often render it pretty limited in its use in movement-building.

    What I think is an interesting approach is to strive to take coalition movement-building efforts seriously as places where radically new modes of education and research are taking place outside the academy. To shift from the language of political strategy to the language of education strategy. That’s what people like me who have a foot in the grassroots community and a foot (well really a toe or two) in academe can do — really observe and begin to develop ways to name how learning is taking place in those settings.

    For instance, I am writing about how the New Majority is building a field of multiple meanings for its “prophetic name” — a dynamic definition that serves as a “public face,” a reality for this so called “majority-minority” city, a new idea (with historical roots) that they hope can go viral because changing how people talk can change power dynamics, a moral consciousness to lift up all voices, and an effort at building new kinds of relationships among POC.

    These meanings (which are dynamic) shape how people learn together in ways that defy conventional approaches to education — for instance, having moral consciousness drive what is important to learn and how you learn it (not “objective” learning); lifting up the idea that where you learn matters and shifting meetings from neighborhood to neighborhood; collective learning rather than expert-based and expert shaped learning experiences; needing to learn to be facile in learning that simultaneous attends to change from within the coalition, change in COC, as well as change in the wider community. Framing the work in terms of learning seems like a promising approach for both movement building as well as general education reform.

    Anyway, this is a long response, but I think this post is worth putting together as an article to be widely published. I thank you for this post and your reference to the andrea smith chapter, which I had not read and am going to incorporate into my writing tonight.

  15. NancyP wrote:

    Please comment on “rights” taxonomy detailed below:

    Civil rights is a general concept revolving around equality under the law. Thus, blacks, women, immigrants, transgendered people, disabled people all have civil rights issues – their own particular issues, to be sure, but all dealing with equality under the law. (For that matter, civil rights have been sought in India by Dalits and unscheduled classes, and by all sorts of people facing legally established inequality all over the world). Thus, the phrase “civil rights” should not trademarked by American blacks in perpetuity.

    A lot of anti-black (anti-X, Y, Z) discrimination is not easily remediable by using the law as a tool. Cumulative effects of social networking can be powerful, and no matter how many laws are passed, people in power will mentor people “like them” more frequently than they mentor people outside their general social group. Social perceptions and habits need to be changed. I consider this to be more an issue of social justice than of “civil rights”, and the tools to be education and persuasion techniques, encouragement of social mingling, and peer pressure, rather than law, which merely sets a few preconditions in place.

    Human rights are a larger class including but not limited to civil rights and anti-discrimination. (Granted, the distinction can be artificial at times). I’d classify a large number of poverty, health, education, and environmental issues here.

    MLKJr dealt with all three kinds of issues. Bus boycott, voting rights, etc – civil rights issues pertaining to equal rights under the law. I’d consider the garbage workers’ strike and the Vietnam war to be more human rights issues than strictly civil rights issues.

    I am all for increasing specificity of language. I would like to attach “African-American” to the phrase “civil rights” where appropriate, ie, when discussing ongoing issues. “Civil Rights Movement, Era, etc” are fine phrases when clearly addressing 1955 to 1968 history (Till to MLKJr), since the phrases have been attached to these years.

    A lot of unnecessary angst has been caused by lack of specificity in language and concepts. That lack of specificity also makes talking about intersectionality, etc more difficult.

  16. NancyP wrote:

    Livininphilly, don’t you think that there would be an audience for Black Pride even if the white and black LGBT communities were on perfect terms? If nothing else, entertainment lineups of a multiple-race, white-demographically-predominant Pride and a black-targeted Pride would differ. I’d bet there are plenty of whites who snooze through rap and plenty of blacks who snooze through folk music, and unless you have multiple band shells going at once, and multiple other cultural venues going at once, no festival is going to be everything to everybody at every time.

  17. jaden_loves wrote:

    Great post Latoya and I also enoyed Monica’s excerpt a lot. I once again have a lot of opinions on this, however. First, before the whole “blacks passed prop 8″ controversy the black community has had a huge homophobia problem; hip hop is just one example. So let’s not(this is not aimed toward anyone is particular) blame prop 8 for calling us out on our problems. 2nd, I voted no on prop 8, but I have a problem with the gay rights movement being annotated so closely with the civil rights movement, just because I believe, scientifically, that gays do choose to be gay.I am straight, if I chose to be gay right now, I would be.I didn’t,however, choose my skin color.I do agree with Monica in that a gay face, is usually painted as a white face, that, coupled with black homophobia is why blacks don’t really identify with the gay rights movement. Also, like Monica said we don’t know of any prominent black lgbt people whom we can idetify with who engage in both spectrums. Last, Blacks are largely a Christian race, Christian doctrines forbid the act of being gay. That is not to say that gay people are not religious, but facts are facts. All these are generalizations, but for arguments sake lets say that they are, for the most part, true.

    There is definitely a problem of soidarity in this problem. Latinos, don’t seem to have a problem with this though, when dealing with Hispanic issues. I like to say that there is no such thing as, “that person’s cause”. Everyone says that they want unity and to achieve that we must fight for one another’s cause. I do a lot of work for things that don’t directly affect, but do indirectly. For example, now with the passing of Prop 8, I am afraid that blacks soon enough won’t be able to vote, and so on and so forth.

    Finally, the issue of “oppression olympics” Monica and I argued over this very thing in her last post on this blog. She said that Transgendered individuals were the most discriminated against and needed the most protections. I said lets leave it to the imagination. It is my opinion that who is more oppressed is in the eye of the beholder, and if that is your opinion keep it to yourself. It is a slap in the face to what someone has gone through to have someone say that their issues are more important than yours. I do believe that it is a menial thing to fight over, but its not just what it looks like on the surface.

  18. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Jaden –

    You made a lot of assumptions in your post, Jaden.

    First, before the whole “blacks passed prop 8″ controversy the black community has had a huge homophobia problem; hip hop is just one example.

    See here:
    Quoted: Juba and Tim’m of Deep Dickollective on Hip-hop and Homophobia

    Truth/Reconciliation: Morehouse on My Mind

    The conversation on the black community, hip-hop, and homophobia has been going on for a long time and will continue. So yes, while the black community has a problem with homophobia, so does every other community. And we have different considerations and different strategies used to overcome this bias, as seen in the two pieces linked above. This conversation has been happening since *at least* the 1950s (I’m not a queer studies scholar, so there are probably points of history that I am missing here.) Just because you may not be involved in said conversations, it doesn’t mean they aren’t happening.

    2. And where is your scientific evidence that people choose to be gay? Let me ask you, Jaden, when did you *choose* to be straight? You didn’t. You can *choose* to engage in a homosexual act, but that does not automatically change your orientation. I have queer friends who have engaged in sexual acts with members of the opposite sex – sometimes it’s just curiosity. Sometimes it is seeing what is out there. But sexual orientation isn’t really a choice. I find it interesting that if I were to maintain a life of celibacy tomorrow, I would still be considered a straight woman; if one of my gay friends took a vow of celibacy, people would take that as proof he has renounced his homosexuality.

    3. Blacks are largely socialized to be Christian in America. Not all of us are. And even if we were, people interpret biblical texts differently, so while some are convinced that homosexuality is a sin, other people of the cloth preach that all sin is sin in the eyes of God – there is no “ranking” no real reason why it’s okay for a serial fornicator to do what he does as long as he isn’t doing it with other men. And even if you would argue that Christian doctrines decree that homosexuality is unacceptable, the great thing about America is that we do not live in a theocracy. So those who do not share your religious beliefs should not be forced to live under them by national mandate. Individuals and private organizations can do as they wish – Chik-fil-A closes on Sundays with no problem, and if your church says no to gay marriage, then fine. But the state should not have that kind of right to legislate based on an interpretation of a certain religion.

    4. Why would you assume that Latinos (a clumsy designation for a large group of people) don’t have issues with solidarity?

    5. Everyone experiences their own kinds of discrimination, this is true. However, I side with Monica on that one – she was trying to convey how vulnerable transpeople of color are – they often deal with multiple forms of discrimination at a time (so racism/sexism/gender bias), are often excluded from civil rights legislation, so there are few protections under the law, and are often penalized for not passing as their chosen gender. In addition, one of the reasons we wrote about the trans murders is because so often, trans people were portrayed as being non-human, so it was easier for people to excuse their murderers as acting in their own self interest. I don’t think that Monica was attempting to rank issues – she was calling attention to something most of us never think about. Acknowledging someone else’s struggle does not diminish our own.

  19. NancyP wrote:

    For Jaden:

    1. Examples of black-predominant LGBT-friendly church organizations/denominations:

    Unity Fellowship Churches (group of 15 or so)
    http://www.unityfellowshipchurch.org/site2009/

    Radically Inclusive group of churches (some UCC, some independent)
    radicallyinclusive.com

    2. MCC, Metropolitan Community Churches, has many congregations that have called black pastors and which have at least one of the worship services in the black gospel tradition. Few congregations are black-predominant, but many have fairly large (~ 35%) black proportion of congregation.
    http://www.mccchurch.org

    3. http://www.whosoever.org
    e-zine, FAQ, and links for LGBT Christians

  20. queerhapa wrote:

    The term “civil rights” predates what many of us refer to as the Civil Rights Movement (CRM). As NancyP wrote above, civil rights is about equality under the law, and the CRM of the ’50s and ’60s was *a* movement for civil rights, not the first nor certainly the last. I for one am not a proponent of marriage, but I do recognize that the marriage equality movement addresses a civil rights issue. The notion that it is the *last* civil rights movement is absurd, and that the editors would call it that to sell magazines is cynical and myopic, to say the least.

    I saw Angela Davis speak several weeks ago, and she said that during the CRM, movement workers didn’t actually refer to it that way. They called it the “Freedom Movement,” and it’s only in retrospect that we now call it the CRM. I’d never heard that before, and found it quite interesting. I wonder what led to the linguistic change?

  21. Jaden_loves wrote:

    Latoya,
    I didn’t say that there was scientific evidence that gay people choose to be gay, when I made the statement that I did it was a statement that meant that from the evidence I’ve been exposed to, combined with my own logic, I believe gay people do choose to be gay. Also, if someone gay took a vow of celibacy I wouldn’t see that as them renouncing their gayness, so maybe that’s a generalization on your part.

  22. MadamaAmbi wrote:

    hi Latoya–I just left this comment on feministing, where Samhita refers to your new column…and I wanted to leave it here, too, since it all seems connected to me.

    Unless a person’s consciousness has been raised by their own direct experience or by study of another group’s suffering or culture, (or even, sometimes, by literature), people live their lives largely unconscious of their effects on others…in my opinion. We have to communicate how we are harmed by privilege, and I think this is impossible to do without showing anger, frustration and feelings of betrayal.

    I’ve been on many different spins of this Wheel of Blame, and it always amazes me how many varieties of us/them can exist. When I was doing my MA in feminist psychotherapy, the mostly lesbian class looked down on their hetero or bisexual sisters! In certain contexts, I’ve been chastised for using a college level vocabulary because it excludes co-workers who didn’t go to college. I’ve been called insensitive for holding hands with my husband in public when gay people could get attacked for it in certain parts of the country. My list goes on, and probably everyone has a long, confusing list. Hell, I’m confused and tired of it all, and frankly, weary of the intense theorizing around these issues.

    I’d like to see group discussions that allow for real feelings to get expressed, owned, heard, understood, empathized with, and then left unresolved, to be returned to over and over again, as long as it takes to get it all out. Is anyone doing this work? I hear about some occasionally, but usually the report I get is that everyone left feeling angry, unheard and lectured.

    I don’t know how we as human beings are going to solve our mutual problems unless we allow real anger and real grief into the room, and see other people as mirrors of our own turmoil. I’m hoping to bring diverse groups together to tackle some of these issues. Obama can be a leader in this, and I’m hoping he will get out from under the current crises and show his leadership in dealing with our own need for truth and reconciliation. We need to cry and scream about what we are doing to one another and to the world…there’s a lot of suffering that needs to be witnessed before it can be solved…in my opinion…

  23. NancyP wrote:

    MadamaAmbi, I’d say consciousness is raised *especially* by good literature presenting different cultural perspectives. We are a story-telling species, we learn empathy by stories as well as observed experience and second-hand facts (history).

  24. Orville wrote:

    I am openly gay and I am also a black man and I can speak with clarity the Adocate magazine is a very racist publication.
    The Advocate has an anti black agenda. The white gay media don’t care when violence or discrmination takes place against gays of color. Does anyone remember Michael Sandy? Two years ago this young black gay man was MURDERED by WHITE MALES. Sandy’s death was treated with apathy by the white gay media. Yet a decade ago Matthew Shepard’s death had more ugency. And so why because Shepard was white?

    I have written about my personal views about the white gay communities in North America and my view is they are racist. The white gay media is all about white gay privilege. The issue I have with the white gay elite is this they have white skin privilege and they often FAIL to acknowledge this. Comparing sexual orientation to race and saying they are the same is bullshit. Race is a more powerful factor in society then sexual orientaiton. Race matters MORE. Race matters when blacks and other people of colour are looking for quality health care, jobs, housing, education, dealing with the police I can go on and on.

    I am openly gay and also black and I can tell you sexual orientation and race are NOT the same thing. I don’t care if a white gay person says it is “oppression olympics.” White gay people were not denied the right to vote, to get an education, told where they could sit on the bus. A person can hide his or her own sexual orientation you cannot HIDE your race. Race matters and race ALWAYS trumps sexual orientation. I know as a black man I will viewed as black first and maybe being gay is down the list. I am personally a bit tired and irritated by these racist white gay organizations and magazines such as Advocate Magazine. Advocate is very racist and this is a fact. The whole issue about gay rights is always painted from a Eurocentric perspective and ignores gays of colour. As an openly gay black man I learned when I was young the mainstream white gay media and community are NOT my community that’s for sure. Gay people of colour we are often caught in a tug of war. We have white homosexuals telling us to “choose” between our race and sexual orientation. Black gay activists and gay activists of colour have always said RACE + CLASS + SEXUAL ORIENTATION + GENDER are INTERCONNECTED.

  25. Orville wrote:

    Also, where are the articles about gay racism? When black lesbian activist Jasmyne Cannick had the COURAGE to take the white gay elite the task the racist comments on the web and in print was NOT SURPRISING AT ALL. I only speak for myself but I will say this the white gay media are NO FRIENDS of black people and this is a fact. They are full of shit and I don’t trust them that’s my PERSONAL OPINION and I know this from EXPERIENCE.

  26. Restructure! wrote:

    I’d like to see group discussions that allow for real feelings to get expressed, owned, heard, understood, empathized with, and then left unresolved, to be returned to over and over again, as long as it takes to get it all out. Is anyone doing this work?

    Does this really work? To me, it seems like the ones who truly empathize and understand are people who have had the same experiences, so it ends up as preaching to the choir.

    I remember Renee (of Womanist Musings) had a post up on Feministe about white people petting black people’s hair, and all these white women commented about how they empathize because they had their hair touched by POC in POC-majority areas.

    You cannot just assume that people can truly empathize just because you express raw feelings. If they don’t have the experiences, they will “empathize” by trying to relate it to something that is only tangentially similar, and then miss the point, because they assume that everyone ultimately has the same experiences.

  27. zackboston wrote:

    I think the key to having group discussions is in the context. Now don’t get me wrong — I have been a longtime (25 years +) supporter of any kinds of forums that bring people together across cultural/ethnic/language differences for meaningful sharing. Oh gee, I have probably knitted about 40 pairs of socks during some of those meetings.

    However, to get people to truly risk being real, I have found that these discussions work best in the context of groups that are trying to enact REAL change. Free floating conversations among folks who may or may not have a commitment to each other, in my experience, are much more frustrating and unproductive discussions because they end up focusing on the abstract, the fuzzy out-there potentials and often carry the burden of unspoken back stories for individuals who dig in and actually derail those discussions.

    The more concrete and action-oriented the context, the more committed the group is to each other and creating change, creates conditions that make positive transformative individual change about how we treat each other possible.

    I’m not saying other more free-floating discussions are not valuable. I’m just saying that times are tough, people are suffering and concrete action is need now. I’m not saying that we have to choose between action and process — that’s an old organizing dilemma. I think the new way is to really work hard at reconciling old paradoxes.

    If I want to be a part of effectively catalyzing change, I will choose to have those conversations in a context that is real and among people who have real established relationships and are taking real action in the community. That way, the progress of talk among a group is actualized.

    And the discussion can be focused on the the real practical everyday effects of assumptions and bias, and people can develop strategies to make their real actions together work even better. Addressing everyday acts — or microagressions — is just as important as getting your head around stuff at the structural level. That’s another paradox to reconcile.

  28. Lizzie (greeneyedfem wrote:

    Shakesville had a great post about this Advocate cover — I just wanted to point folks to their discussion on intersectionality as well: A Perfect Example, Unfortunately.

  29. Slush wrote:

    @ Nancy P

    I mostly agree with and back up your taxonomy of civil rights. And by defining it as a concept about equality under the law satisfies most situations: it’s about concern for discrimination and equal treatment of all people.

    Thus gay rights and disability rights would be included – and I think they should be, even though this might be a dilution of the history of the movement. I think the principle behind gay rights is the same as African-American civil rights, and so grouping them under that idea is appropriate. Modifiers stating “gay civil rights” or “black civil rights” or “immigrant civil rights” seem appropriate and useful at times as well.

    I wanted to add that I think modern international human rights law has affected the old definition of civil rights. Like Nancy said, civil rights are really a subset of human rights, which are a pretty expansive collection of ideas of what all people should be entitled to or protected from, merely for being human.

    But the human rights law paradigm distinguishes between ‘civil and political rights’ – which include liberty, freedom from slavery, rights of accused persons, free speech, equality before the law, etc. – and ’social and economic rights’ – which are things like the right to education, health, employment, etc.

    Generally, western nations like the US only recognize the civil and political rights as valid, and think the others are more or less uber-liberal moonshine. Also, the international treaty on civil and political rights traces our own Bill of Rights pretty closely – and many people think of civil rights as the rights enshrined in the US Bill of Rights – a specific list of rights, not a concept about equality.

    Thus we have a set of things called “civil rights” which include non-discrimination and equality before the law, but are much broader and vaguer, and explain why some people think that the most important civil rights concept is free speech, rather than equal protection.

  30. Elaine Vigneault wrote:

    FYI, anyone interested in intersectionality might be interested in L.O.V.E.
    (Living Opposed to Violence and Exploitation) http://loveallbeings.org/

  31. NancyP wrote:

    Orville, to be fair, the Advocate articles were far better than the cover.

    All the gay glossies are white-centric, but I believe that they are more oblivious to the existence of non-whites, than actively pursuing an anti-black agenda. The glossies are also more interested in wooing the white male middle and upper class demographic more than others, because that’s the demographic advertisers want to see. POCs, lesbians, transgendered people, and people over 60 are less represented.

    Unfortunately, as long as one is operating in the for-profit dead-tree newsstand-distributed magazine domain, there will be a white male bias to “general interest” LGBTSGLQIA glossy magazines – until a POC, lesbian, or TG magazine shows that it can achieve high subscription and newstand sales and get ad revenue. It may be that your ideal magazine would have to start out small, non-profit, lower-cost format, and with few advertisers. Sad, but there it is.

  32. Orville wrote:

    Nancy I do understand your point about the white LGBT media being Eurocentic due to business. I just feel though they are being hypocritical in a sense they complain about homophobia yet ignore racism in the gay community. There was a black LGBT magazine called Venus Magazine a few years ago but the publisher well she turned straight LOL! Long story.

  33. Orville wrote:

    I don’t just think the white gay magazines are oblivious to people of colour though due to ignorance I think it is also due to apathy and racism. It seems to me the white gay elite have this attitude that anything that relates to gay issues really means it is a white gay issue. And when it doesn’t relate to them suddenly to them it has no social value. My perspective is they really don’t care about social justice for “all people” or about “civil rights” they care about maintaining their white skin privilege.