Icing on the cake: The Truth about Marriage

by Guest Contributor Tami, originally published at What Tami Said

Professor Tracey has me thinking…as usual. Over on Aunt Jemima’s Revenge, she has launched a spirited discussion about black women and marriage. Rather than go the usual “why can’t black women get married” route, hand-wringing over dire statistics like these:

The marriage rate for African Americans has been dropping since the 1960s, and today, we have the lowest marriage rate of any racial group in the United States. In 2001, according to the U.S. Census, 43.3 percent of black men and 41.9 percent of black women in America had never been married, in contrast to 27.4 percent and 20.7 percent respectively for whites. African American women are the least likely in our society to marry. In the period between 1970 and 2001, the overall marriage rate in the United States declined by 17 percent; but for blacks, it fell by 34 percent. Read more

…Tracey asked something different–something no one else seems to be asking, since it is easier to cast black women as powerless victims or simply undesirable (too educated, too aggressive, too black, too too). She wants to know, “Do black women really want to get married?”

Yet every time I look around black women are single. And I mean single, not alone. There is a difference. Plenty of black women have healthy and hearty dating lives. I just wonder why black women getting to the altar still seems to be an issue. Particularly for educated, financially sound, well-traveled, high-powered, and ambitious black women. Read more…

Sisters are weighing in with their thoughts for and against getting hitched in the 21st century. (Head over to AJR and leave a comment.) Here’s my take:

Marrying a man and sharing my life with him was always one of my life goals. It wasn’t a primary goal or a goal I necessarily thought I could achieve (dire statistics and all), but it was something I hoped for. My desire wasn’t about the spectacle of a wedding, or the idea of being “chosen,” or being taken care of. I hate the whole “my day” foolishness; I like to do the choosing, thank you; and I was raised to take care of myself. What I wanted out of marriage was a partner for my life journey–someone to be my friend, lover, supporter, cheerleader, rock, protector and challenger. (Before anyone balks about gender bias…I know words like “protector” are loaded…EVERYONE–man or woman–needs someone to serve in these roles at some time. I like to think that I am all of these things for my husband,as he is for me.)

As a single woman, I think that I was pretty level-headed about marriage. Like anything else in life, circumstances may well have put matrimony out of reach. No truer words about marriage and family have been spoken than by Baz Luhrman in “Everybody is free (to wear sunscreen)”:

    Maybe you’ll marry, maybe you won’t,
    Maybe you’ll have children,maybe you won’t,
    Maybe you’ll divorce at 40,
    Maybe you’ll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary…
    What ever you do, don’t congratulate yourself too much or berate yourself either
    – your choices are half chance, so are everybody else’s.

I’d be lying if I said I was immune to pressure to get hitched. My parents and grandparents all have/had till-death-do-they-part marriages. It would be hard not to be a part of that tradition. And though most of my black girlfriends were single in their 20s as I was, most of the white women at the Chicago PR agency where I worked began to get engaged as they approached 30. All those flashed diamond rings, European honeymoons and new Northside condos can wear on a sister. I won’t lie, feminist me was envious of my colleages’ “chosenness” and the increased financial stability that being one of two earners in a household brings. Sometimes adult life feels hard when everything rests on your shoulders and yours alone.

But that insecurity was a sometimes thing. I didn’t want to marry young. In my 20s, I built my career, traveled, took classes, dated, made friends and discovered myself. I enjoyed every minute of my single life and wouldn’t trade it for the world. I miss it sometimes. I was determined not to wait on a Prince Charming that I knew might never come. Turns out, though, he did show up. I met my husband the summer of my 30th year and married him exactly a year later.

Seven years on, I believe that getting married is one of the best things I have ever done. I love my husband deeply. He is all those things I wanted in a partner and more. (He shares my love of dry, British comedy, politics, and he has great legs. Bonus!) As wonderful as my husband is, understand that he didn’t make my life, he just makes it better. I had a good life before I married. I would have had a good life if I had never married. If my life is a cake mixed from all of my experiences, hard work, dreams and skills, my dear husband is the icing. And a very sweet icing at that.

That’s what marriage is to me: Icing on the cake. I love it. I recommend it. It is not; however, a substitute for personal growth and development. Put another way: the right life partner can greatly enhance your journey, but he or she can’t walk it for you. YOU are the only person who can make you happy, successful, financially stable, etc.

And because there is nothing folks love more than advice from pompous, know-everything married people, here’s some other random wisdom about being hitched:

There are no rules in marriage.

I often hear people say, “Girl, you know I can never get married, because I hate [insert hated thing that no one said you have to do here].” If you don’t like sharing a bed, cooking or children; have separate rooms, order in and use contraceptives. Forget tradition and what your friends, in-laws, parents think your marriage should be like. A committed couple needs to negotiate a relationship that works for their unique needs. I get confused when I hear people voice opposition to marriage, based on a traditional structure that no one need adhere to. Your marriage is what you make of it. Thus, I should have called this essay “My truth about marriage,” because it is only my truth.

But there are truisms about building rewarding relationships.

A few women on AJR mentioned not wanting to trust another person with financial information or personal information, or voiced fear of being controlled. It seems to me that, marriage aside, any successful long-term relationship hinges on honesty, trust, respect and compromise. You have to be clear about who you are and what you want. You also have to get a little “naked” in the figurative sense; you can’t reap the benefits of being truly loved if you won’t cede control enough to drop your guard and be vulnerable. It also helps to know the difference between respect and control. When my husband tells me he’s grabbing a beer with a friend on Saturday night, it’s not because I’m in charge of his actions; it is out of courtesy and respect for the person that shares his life and home. If I’m planning to spend all Saturday hanging our with girlfriends I let my husband know–not for permission, but because we are a team and it is courteous to let him know where I am and what my plans are.

Racism can force black men and women into constant defense mode. It can make us wary and suspicious–even of each other. Wary and suspicious are not exactly recipes for good relationships. I’ve always wondered if the shell we develop to guard against racism is at the crux of the sorry relationship between brothers and sisters.

There is something about saying “forever.”

You may be rightly thinking that all of the things I love about marriage can be achieved without the marriage license. Indeed, gay people have long had deep, committed relationships not recognized by America as marriages. There was a time when black folks weren’t allowed to marry, but we know our ancestors formed bonds and families just the same.

For me, though, there is something about pledging commitment to someone in front of family and friends. There is something about being certain enough about your loyalty to another person to enmesh your life with theirs legally, as well as spiritually.

Right or wrong, our culture places special honor on the marriage commitment. A spouse is revered as something more than a live-in lover. Don’t believe me? Take it from a gay person who is fighting for the right to marry. Check out Tom Ackerman’s essay “A Marriage Manifesto…Of Sorts.”

I no longer recognize marriage. It’s a new thing I’m trying.

Turns out it’s fun.

Yesterday I called a woman’s spouse her boyfriend.

She says, correcting me, “He’s my husband,”
“Oh,” I say, “I no longer recognize marriage.”

The impact is obvious. I tried it on a man who has been in a relationship for years,

“How’s your longtime companion, Jill?”
“She’s my wife!”
“Yeah, well, my beliefs don’t recognize marriage.”

Fun. And instant, eyebrow-raising recognition. Suddenly the majority gets to feel what the minority feels. In a moment they feel what it’s like to have their relationship downgraded, and to have a much taken-for-granted right called into question because of another’s beliefs.

Just replace the words husband, wife, spouse, or fiancé with boyfriend, girlfriend, special friend, or longtime companion. There is a reason we needed stronger words for more serious relationships. We know it; now they can see it.

A marriage is a lot of things. Culturally, it’s a declaration to the community that two people are now a unit, and that unity should be respected. Legally, it’s a set of rights and responsibilities. And spiritually, it’s whatever your beliefs think it is. Read more…

The personal benefits of marriage can be found in many a committed relationship, the legal and social benefits…not so much.

No one needs to be married.

All that said. No one needs to be married. It is a personal choice. God knows I know some people that ought not be married. And I know some people who don’t want to be married. That’s cool. Even for those of us who do want to “jump the broom,” stuff happens: “the right one” just never comes along…or we choose wrong…or we choose right at the wrong time…or we choose right and circumstances change…marriages fail. Life is mercurial; no one should invest all their happiness in part of it.

There are numerous paths to a rewarding and happy existence and not all of them include marriage.

That’s the truth.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Sassy Black Friend » Blog Archive » I Probably Don’t on 10 Dec 2008 at 3:24 pm

    [...] Racialicious, and her blog, Tami points to Aunt Jemima’s Revenge, about marriage and black women. There are [...]

Comments

  1. jaden_loves wrote:

    I am young, second year college student. Maybe I’ll change my mind in the upcoming years, hopefully not, but I don’t want to get married. I am also a black woman, but I am the only person that I know that does not want to get married and I only have three married couples in my family, including my mom’s and dad’s side. Although, I feel that her question to ask if black women truly want to get married, was a smart one, I think the overall answer is yes. Therefore, I believe there is another problem at hand to why we aren’t getting married. I do feel pressure to get married one day, but I’ve came out and fnally told my mom that it ain’t go happen. I want to be like Oprah and my longtime boyfriend will be like Stedman.I loved this piece but I also disagreed with a lot of parts. I am sure you’ve heard the argument that marriage is just a piece of paper.Well that’s how I feel. I also disagree with the part of the Ackerman essay where he says that, “There is a reason we needed stronger words for more serious relationships.” I feel that if you are together, you’re together. Commitment and trust needs to be there no matter what.There is no such thing as being more together or less together. Marriage is just another way for the government to document what you are doing with your life. I will not knock anyone and what they want to do with their life, that is just my opinion.

  2. Allison wrote:

    An amazing, inspiring, wonderful post. Really, I can’t gush enough about how much this essay resonates with me.

  3. Monie wrote:

    I’m a African American woman who would love to get married, but can’t, because it isn’t legal for me to do so.

    It must be nice to have a choice.

  4. chris wrote:

    i’m with jaden on this. your feelings about marriage are completely valid, but i have to take issue with a couple points. first, you say there’s something about being “certain enough” in your commitment to bring the law and society into it. i see it completely the opposite. my partner and i are certain enough about each other that we see no need to validate or legitimize in the eyes of the law or society. which brings me to my next point of disagreement. of course marriage confers social benefits as well as personal, but i think that in itself is wrong. as a culture we need to be honoring all types of relationships, as you noted. i feel that buying into the marriage tradition–even if you make your own rules–only perpetuates the myth that ‘husbands,’ ‘wives,’ and ’spouses’ should be “revered.” since when do we conform with tradition in order to express dissent from it? those of us who think our society needs to raise its consciousness to more types of intimate and familial arrangements should contribute to the diversity out there instead of giving in to social pressures.

  5. Amused0472 wrote:

    I loved your essay. I am thirty-something African-American woman who hasn’t found the icing for my cake yet, but I am hopeful and continue to work on me. I might be fifty before I dance at my wedding, but I will dance. Thanks for your inspiring words for all committed relationships.

  6. Ailurophile wrote:

    This is a well-written and thought-provoking essay. Thank you.

    Something that gives me pause in all the reams and reams of marriage-related literature, essays, etc. – who gets married, when, and to whom, is always couched in terms of WOMEN. That is, if (heterosexual) women get married, it’s because THEY want to; likewise, if (hetero) women don’t get married, it’s because THEY “choose not to.”

    Assuming heterosexual marriage ( a big assumption!) or for that matter gay male marriage, there are men in the equation who are either choosing or not choosing marriage, and this does impact on the women they are dating. Women are not the marriage gatekeepers. Just as in the endless discussions of the “interracial marriage disparities” in some groups, it’s blamed on women – the women are either too picky, or they are “selling out” – being too-fussy gatekeepers or failing to gatekeep enough.

    When women get married (heterosexually) or not (again heterosexually), there’s a man out there who marries her or men who don’t. Men choose, refuse, and gatekeep too. Enough of marriage as women’s exclusive business.

  7. Joanna wrote:

    I’m a lesbian and I have been thinking about marriage a lot recently because 1) my straight friends are all starting to get married, 2) my relationship with my girlfriend is going so well, and 3) of course, because of the recent victories and losses for gay marriage around the country.

    The part about being in a loving and supporting relationship forever, I think, will come naturally to me. The commitment and trust will be there no matter what.

    But when I think about “marriage,” I usually think about the actual ceremony and party. Who would walk us down the aisle? (Would my homophobic dad be willing to do it? My girlfriend doesn’t really have parents….) What will we wear? (Should we both wear the same thing? Should I wear pants? Should I wear red like my Chinese aunt did?)

    Another thing I wanted to point out is that where the technical aspect of marriage matters the most, I think, is when immigrants cannot stay in the country because their partnership is not legally recognized, or people can’t visit each other in the hospital, etc.

  8. waxghost wrote:

    I don’t have much to add, but I did want to say that I was thinking about the “protector” thing you mentioned recently and completely agree. The thing that seems to get lost in the binary division of traditional and feminist views of “protector” is that there is a way to protect the person you love without taking away their own autonomous abilities.

    Also, I am a firm believer in the cyclical nature of human history so I wondered, when you said, “There was a time when black folks weren’t allowed to marry, but we know our ancestors formed bonds and families just the same,” if that might not be a part of it as well. Just as hundreds of years of poverty with no pointed injection of wealth has meant a historical economic disadvantage for black people that continues today, it seems that hundreds of years of being unable to legally marry – or even have any power to hold onto the loved ones you form strong bonds with – would have a deep and lasting impact on your culture.

  9. Oli wrote:

    I’m a black British girl and do not want to get married at all. That’s just me

  10. Gail wrote:

    Love this post. As a divorced woman who once thought she would never marry, and once married never imagined herself divorced, I can say that the feelings around being coupled have only become more complicated. The feelings of being “chosen” or “unchosen” are reinforced by external pressure to “be in a relationship” or at least want to be in one. For me the struggle has been to do that work for myself that you talk about. Doing that work is hard, and brings me peace. A relationship would be icing on a preciously decadent cake.

  11. Mugizi wrote:

    I think this is basically saying that if you find the right person and are at the right point in your life you can have a happy marriage and that seems to be what happened to the author.

    The problem is getting to that right point of happiness and maturity, figuring out what you actually want in life and then actually meeting that right person who can travel the journey of life with you and this is where a lot of people struggle I think by continuously picking the wrong people or not really knowing what they want.

  12. Mugizi wrote:

    But the point by the author that there are no rules is a good one to keep in mind and is much appreciated.

  13. Sewere wrote:

    :: STANDING OVATION::

    What you said about relationships (same and different sex) basically captures all my muddled thoughts and puts it into an amazing prose. I’m going to send this to single friends who keep freaking out about finding “the one.”

  14. DeeDee wrote:

    I’m a young African-American woman who really cares nothing about being married. Too much of people’s lives are spent trying to impress society instead of living authentically. And too many females are defined solely by their marital status. From where I stand that means that women have no worth as society is concerned. They’re simply pieces of property.

    I think that many people allow the subject of marriage to eclipse the act of getting to know and bond with someone. I’ve met several men who have “sowed their oats” and lived wildly and then meet me and all of a sudden start talking about marriage and buying homes and having kids. If you’re not getting to know me and are only interested in my abilities to complete domestic duties, you’re viewing me as a maid. Not a complex, intellectual and spiritual entity. And that’s a definite turnoff.

    Also, I wish that ONCE and FOR ALL, people could acknowledge that marriage and monogamy don’t necessarily have anything to do with one another. Even if two people take vows along those very lines. We assume that they do. But if statistics are correct, they don’t. And this is something that married people don’t ever want to talk about. I believe in open and honest communication and I don’t expect or even want to find everything in one person.

    Just my feelings on the matter.

  15. Mike wrote:

    Those that want to be parents should be married. It is better for the children. Old-school, I know, but still true.

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/34578.html

  16. Persephone wrote:

    I loved this post. I never thought about getting married, but ended up doing so because I found a really great partnership more or less by accident. I think the fact that I had the luxury of not worrying much about getting married beforehand (because I was young, and grew up in a very affluent, career-oriented community where young people were encouraged to put their education first) probably made it a lot less complicated for me to make that decision when the time came.

    @ DeeDee — absolutely. My husband and I are polyamorous, and it works out really well for us. Having a partner doesn’t have to mean only being with one person for the rest of your life.

  17. Vanessa wrote:

    Also, I wish that ONCE and FOR ALL, people could acknowledge that marriage and monogamy don’t necessarily have anything to do with one another.
    —————————-

    True but the legal benefits that one get as a married couple matters and if one plan on having children (especially in the Black American society) it is better to live in a home where the parents are legally married to each other.

    Let’s be honest…if you could spend 20 years with someone…why can’t one legalize the deal.

    If the relationship ever ends…you want to make sure that you get what is due to you and not get shafted b/c you weren’t legally recognized as the person spouse.

    Honestly, haven’t anyone notice that the decline in marriage rates among the black female…the increase in single-family households (Mother as head), increase in black males not being involved in the lives of their children, and the decrease in graduation rates among blacks ( especially among males).

  18. Dana wrote:

    Great article. While reading I couldn’t agree with you more. Marriage gets a bad rap in today’s society…I think it has something to do with individualism. People don’t want to feel like they have to give up something, a part of themselves…and a lot of times this is how people view marriage. Really marriage is about change. It’s not a destruction of self as much as an evolution, as any maturing relationship should be. However:

    This statement also brought something else

    “Racism can force black men and women into constant defense mode. It can make us wary and suspicious–even of each other. Wary and suspicious are not exactly recipes for good relationships. I’ve always wondered if the shell we develop to guard against racism is at the crux of the sorry relationship between brothers and sisters.”

    It seemed to assume black women are in intra-racial relationships exclusively.

  19. Minx wrote:

    wealth creation and the cost of being wrong are the primary reasons I would postpone a long term commitment like marriage until I’m about in my 40’s. I have no intention of putting my life on the “slow-motion” button.

  20. ambre wrote:

    @ chris
    “of course marriage confers social benefits as well as personal, but i think that in itself is wrong. as a culture we need to be honoring all types of relationships, as you noted. i feel that buying into the marriage tradition–even if you make your own rules–only perpetuates the myth that ‘husbands,’ ‘wives,’ and ’spouses’ should be ‘revered.’”

    I totally agree – why should married people have “special rights”? And what does that say of people whose families are not defined by sexual relationships or polyamourous people or people who are single and not in a relationship, etc.?

    For further thoughts “beyond marriage” check out this response to Prop 8 (is relevant to the current discussion):

    http://makezine.enoughenough.org/prop8.html

  21. Big Man wrote:

    A marriage is a lot of things. Culturally, it’s a declaration to the community that two people are now a unit, and that unity should be respected. Legally, it’s a set of rights and responsibilities. And spiritually, it’s whatever your beliefs think it is.

    I found this quote interesting. It seems weird that the author had definite, concrete definitions for what marriage means legally and culturally, but as far as “spiritually” he said it’s whatever your beliefs think it is.

    I don’t see how that works for homosexuals. If people’s beliefs say that marriage is only between a man and woman, then they won’t recognize gay marriage as being real. Which will only lead to problems between them and homosexuals who consider their marriages real. That seemed like a problem.

  22. Big Man wrote:

    What I’m trying to say, is that the essay by Ackerman seems to be saying that it’s unfair for outsiders to say your marriage is not real and then treat you accordingly.

    But, he then says that our spiritual beliefs define what marriage is.

    That seems to conflict. If your spiritual beliefs define marriage, then you could have a belief that says that marriage is only between a man and a woman. That means you wouldn’t see a homosexual marriage as being “real.”

    And that would draw Ackerman’s ire. But, you’d only be doing what he said to do in the first place.

  23. Roger wrote:

    Well I’m a African American male trying to finish my senior year of college & I agree that a lot of black women are not as enthusiastic about getting married compared to black men(Yes) & other race of women. I think its probably because a lot of black women are more dedicated to work, black women work efforts are amazing, but that is the problem majority of them are not going to gamble on having a family until they find that someone who they feel is compatible while making big step in the economy. A lot of men don’t wait that long unless they are doing a lot of playing around… For example in my business class we talk about how will our lives be after 10 years & majority of the black men said they want to have at least 2 to 3 children by the age of 30. Then the same question was ask to the ladies & black women thought 27 to 40 was the perfect time for family & marriage. I think women got to remember a man likes young women especially if he doesn’t have a wife at the age of about 30+ because that is usually the time when women start losing their attractiveness. So if wait until you are 30 or older you shouldn’t be picky with your choices. So black women you have a decision to make do you want to be lonely & possibly have a couple men in your life that showed you a good time but wasn’t marriage material & make the fat checks while wearing the boots of the household(single mother) or search for Mr. Right have those babies & share all your earnings/bills with someone that is trying to make it. I see so many professional women with bum a$$ men & this has to be the primary case that black women don’t put marriage on the pedestal until its almost too late.

  24. Sobia wrote:

    Thanks for writing/posting this. Although I am South Asian, and I’m sure rates of marriage are probably very high in our community, I can relate and appreciate what Tami speaks of. The pressure to get married is HUGE in our culture and even more so among Muslims. After all, we’re told that marriage is half of faith. Now THAT is a lot of pressure. And although I do want to get married someday soon, I also recognize that this is not in my control.

    I was especially able to relate to this bit:

    “I won’t lie, feminist me was envious of my colleages’ “chosenness” and the increased financial stability that being one of two earners in a household brings. Sometimes adult life feels hard when everything rests on your shoulders and yours alone.”

    @Amused0472:

    “I might be fifty before I dance at my wedding, but I will dance.”

    Love it!

    Thanks again for posting this!

  25. Bohemian Writer wrote:

    As a black woman (of Caribbean descent) I have always had a desire to get married. I second #2 when I say that this post did resonate w/ me as well.

    I am a 3rd-year college student studying Education & there are a lot of girls who are getting engaged already. I’m only 20 & plan on going into grad school but I believe that it many people get married for the wrong reasons…(ie-financial stability/etc. etc.) I am literally your doppleganger. Thanks for posting! :)

  26. Sewere wrote:

    Roger wrote,

    o if wait until you are 30 or older you shouldn’t be picky with your choices. So black women you have a decision to make do you want to be lonely & possibly have a couple men in your life that showed you a good time but wasn’t marriage material & make the fat checks while wearing the boots of the household(single mother) or search for Mr. Right have those babies & share all your earnings/bills with someone that is trying to make it. I see so many professional women with bum a$$ men & this has to be the primary case that black women don’t put marriage on the pedestal until its almost too late.

    Wow, you certainly gave laid down some wisdom there. I do have a question for you though, did you read the post? I would add something here but the irony would be too much for you to understand.

  27. Rj wrote:

    1. Is Roger serious?
    2. As a Black woman, the whole prop 8 thing made me realize that marriage was being given too much weight. I feel discriminated against for being single.
    3. I agree that your relationship with another is personal, and that the “paper” aspect of it is just the government putting in where it doesn’t belong. I’d rather not be “tracked” and judged according to my relationship status.
    4. I’d rather be single, and do bad all by my damn self–and maybe that’s the underlying theme for Black women.

  28. pointofagreement wrote:

    I have to agree with Roger. In spirit and in principle.

    I’m 33 years old. Black, male, straight, college educated, gainfully employed . . . and becoming as marriage crazy as women are sometimes thought to be. You’d laugh if I told who how often I notice the size of wedding rings (and the stark ethnic differences in wedding band size by race, which might be fodder for another blog post entirely…) And the notion of not finding someone to spend my life with concerns me greatly. I suspect black women are in the dark about how many black men are just as anxious to wed, but hitting the ‘brick wall’ of women who intentionally delay the process of signing up for a soul mate (for lack of a more romantic notion) until it’s too late for them. And by ‘too late’, I mean, when they’re far past the period in which their physical attractiveness makes them more likely to be on the receiving end of those engagement offers (per Roger’s point).

    This is not to suggest in the slightest that there’s some fountain of offers that black women are willingly and recklessly avoiding at their peril: I’m well aware of the heartbreaking figures on black male employment and comparable education levels as they pertain to marriage-worthy men of color. But for those of us who do have our sh*t together, the weather is just as harsh as it is for those on the other side of the gender fence.

    I’ve dated across the racial spectrum and found that all women, of all colors, have, basically, the same set of habits and hang-ups. . . so if anyone things I’m angling to whip out the ‘I’ll date a white girl at some point card’ please think again. But what I am frustrated by with black women in particular is the hyper-focus on having their imagined soul mates fall neatly into pre-set paradigms for what is or should be total perfection. Again, women of all races, I think, carry a set of ‘must-have’s’ in their heads about what ‘the one’ should come bearing . . . but it just strikes me that black women come with just so much more. And not to their benefit. Which might dovetail into what a poster has said here about — or hinted to– the numbers of black women who are dating outside the race.

    Could it be that these standards are simply too lofty for a man of color to embody?

    But speaking to my original point, some of us want it just as bad as the women do. We want the kids and the house and the stability and all the legal, spiritual and emotional trappings that come with finding the one who will be with you and love you through thick, thin and smoke-thin. It just seems that more than a few black women are pushing the envelope on the conventional timetable for saying ‘I do’.

  29. Asada wrote:

    @ Roger,

    And alot of Black women fear being turned into work horses and doing the double shift. That’s a serious thing in our community, taking care of everyone at the cost of core self. Maybe, we should be like the firm families of our parents generation and stick to it!

    “So black women you have a decision to make do you want to be lonely & possibly have a couple men in your life that showed you a good time but wasn’t marriage material & make the fat checks while wearing the boots of the household(single mother) or search for Mr. Right have those babies & share all your earnings/bills with someone that is trying to make it”.

    like Minx said, the cost of being wrong…..

    did you notice that black women can search from here to high haven and find themselves flat broke with 2-3 kids no man is gonna pick up for? That this pedestal can lead to single motherhood anyway? That if she really does wanna get married afterwards it’ll end in a series of bad relationship anyway?

    Oh wait, I guess she can tell all the rogers of the world how she was married and ain’t no babymomma and gotz her money? eh?

    Or maybe she should have just [ fill in the blank] like the other women did.

    Nice. Just Nice. I hope, for your sake, your partner stays looking like a hawt 20-something the entire marriage.

  30. soreal879 wrote:

    @Roger:

    “For example in my business class we talk about how will our lives be after 10 years & majority of the black men said they want to have at least 2 to 3 children by the age of 30. Then the same question was ask to the ladies & black women thought 27 to 40 was the perfect time for family & marriage. I think women got to remember a man likes young women especially if he doesn’t have a wife at the age of about 30+ because that is usually the time when women start losing their attractiveness.”

    Well….if you think that women start losing their attractiveness at 30yrs old (which is young!), then no wonder so many Black Women seem not to be marrying! You lost me there with those sentences, I dont think they added to this conversation at all!!

    I think the real problem here is that Black Women (well, all women) feel as if they have to choose between the family life and a career. Therefore, what happens is that many women forgo the family path b/c the selection of men (black. or any type) is not up to their standards…either because 1) some women have ridiculously high standards, or 2)the choice of men in the area really is pitiful.

    Thus, many women just choose to stay single (or have kids and not marry) than to gamble with the risks of marriage.

    If we mix in data about the incarceration rate of black males, high school drop out rates, and income levels we would be able to paint a more complete picture of all the reasons Black Women are simply not marrying. More needs to be said about the quality of men available, not just as to why some women are saying “I don’t.”

  31. DeeDee wrote:

    @Persephone – “My husband and I are polyamorous, and it works out really well for us. Having a partner doesn’t have to mean only being with one person for the rest of your life.”

    I’m glad to know that there are people who are able to live this way without all of the secrecy and deception. Seems extremely viable to me!

    @Roger – “I think women got to remember a man likes young women especially if he doesn’t have a wife at the age of about 30+ because that is usually the time when women start losing their attractiveness. So if wait until you are 30 or older you shouldn’t be picky with your choices. “

    Roger, I’m just wondering? If the man marries a woman who’s younger than 30 and then she starts to lose her attractiveness, does this imply that the marriage is already doomed and he’ll simply move on to someone else? In which case, those vows would have simply meant nothing and she will end up alone anyways. Doesn’t seem like an attractive (pun intended) situation for a woman either way.

  32. red wrote:

    I think women got to remember a man likes young women especially if he doesn’t have a wife at the age of about 30+ because that is usually the time when women start losing their attractiveness

    OK, I’ve written and deleted several possible replies to this, because I am struggling not to say or suggest anything personally offensive.

    So I’ll just stick to *laughs uncontrollably*

    Anyone else having this problem?

  33. Tami wrote:

    Dana–No, I acknowlege that many black women date men of all races. I did, though my husband is black. I think we should all explore all of our options. The fact remains, though, that MOST black women date and marry black black men. And I think, on the whole, the relationship between black men and women carries some extra burdens that can be tied to the history of racism in this country.

    Roger, pointofagreement–Your arguments suggest that women (and men) should forgo personal development, fulfillment and the important task of finding the right person, to get marriage in by some imaginary deadline. Disaster that way lies. Divorce courts are no doubt littered with the broken marriages of folks who got married because it was “time,” or “I was almost 30,” etc. They exist right alongside the marriages of folks who relaxed their standards of the right companion just to walk down the aisle. EVERYONE ought to be choosy and take their time when picking a mate. Yes, that may mean you don’t find the right one in your 20s or 30s or 40s or ever. But like that sage Chris Rock says, “Life is long when you make the wrong decisions.” Frankly, I would have been happily never married than stuck in a long, unhappy entanglement with someone I settled for in order to walk down the aisle before my “shelf life” expires.

    I’m not even touching the the thing about women losing their attractiveness at 30, cause “Wow!”

  34. onely wrote:

    RJ is right–marriage is given way too much weight. As Tami said, “it is not. . . a substitute for personal growth and development,” but the media and our coupling-obsessed society treat it as such.

    Makes it tough for single folks, who are pathologized because of their status, instead of recognized for the well-rounded and competent individuals they are.

    We need to change our social and governmental paradigms to allow resources (especially childcare resources) to be distributed among all people, not just those in state-sanctioned couplings. Black women’s declining marriage rate (as cited by Joy Jones) should not have to cause an automatic “oh no how terrible!” response. Women who want or have children should not feel they need to be married in order to provide for those children. Validating singlehood as a lifestyle can only have positive implications against racism and sexism. -CC at Onely.

  35. atlasien wrote:

    I don’t “believe” in marriage in a spiritual sense. But after living together for five years, my husband and I got married. The economic and social benefits were just too important to forgo. As one example, I had my boyfriend getting my health insurance as a domestic partner, but unless you’re legally married, you pay a much higher rate because the company portion of the benefit is taxed. It doesn’t matter how progressive the company is, you’re still going to pay a lot more as a domestic partner than as a spouse. We figured he might as well get individual insurance. Once we got married, that problem was solved and we saved a LOT of money. I recognize that as a major privilege of being heterosexual.

    I believe strongly in gay marriage rights. I don’t think there’s been nearly enough discussion of how lack of marriage rights horribly damages GLBT couples with children, legally and financially.

    But I also think a lot of the legal and economic framework of marriage doesn’t just damage gay and lesbian couples… it damages single people and elderly people and all kinds of people living outside a mainstream nuclear family structure. Eventually, I hope all of the state benefits of marriage will be deleted and replaced with a system of flexible rights (medical, financial, custodial) that can be assigned to different people in your life… spouses, relatives or friends.

  36. Asada wrote:

    also,

    marriage is an economic agreement. Stop focusing so much on what ppl do. THe median average of wealth for blacks is fairly low compared to other ethinc groups. Im not surprised marriage is full of troubled waters.

    In stead of focusing on individuals and marriage, we should focus on the big picture, how to store and create wealth.

    Marriage in the USA is only one if afew methods in the USA to combine and preserve wealth ( not for wealth CREATION, women actualy get poorer once they are married). And where there is money, the sacred and social is sure to follow.

    The primary reason for divorce in the USA is financial. This cuts across all ethnic groups.

  37. pointofagreement wrote:

    Tami,

    If it seems I made an argument that black women should truncate inner-enrichment for the sake of punching some imaginary matrimonial timecard, I’ve errantly presented my point.

    Please allow me to restate myself.

    The crux of what I meant to say is this: there is a window in which one is more likely to propose or be proposed too. Roger uses a women’s 30th birthday as the marker between those two periods. I’d prefer my argument be seen as an amendment to his. I totally disagree with his ‘birthday thesis’: that a woman falls to broken bits by midnight on her 29th. But, based on my own experiences, I’ve found that black women have a rather broad sense of how long this ’season of inner-enrichment’ lasts, as a practical matter. And to their matrimonial detriment.

    In a paradigmatic sense, one is marriage material for as long as they’re alive. In real terms, if it doesn’t happen by the mid 40’s, there’s a good chance it ain’t happening. And all the racial/socio-economic caveats apply to that judgement in my opinion.

    So again, It’s all well and good to ‘find yourself’ at 35 or 40. But keep in mind that, at that point, the market for men of color–and men in general–has dwindled to an ember. (at which point, articles like this one [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry] become less of a journalistic sample and more of a primer. )

    Even if we disagree on the mechanics of marriage, its safe to say that a large number of us–single, black, and wanting love– are looking at our long married parents and grandparents and thinking to ourselves ‘How in Hell did they pull that off?’

  38. browne wrote:

    I think people think too much. If you find someone you like marry them if it doesn’t work out get a divorce, it’s not a big deal. Don’t put this church spin on everything, it’s not a sin or that major to get a divorce. I got one.

    Getting married is easy it’s having kids that are hard. I’m certain I won’t be having any kids and if I do I’m letting whoever I’m with know that if we get divorced they are taking custody of the kids and I’ll be the good “guy” and visit on the weekends. Screw these traditional roles.

    My sister did that (is weekend mommy) with her husband, it’s sort of funny, because my sister is very “different” her ex comes by and says, “where is she, where is she, she was supposed to come by and the see the kids…” That’s totally not cool at all, but I don’t know why so many black women set out to be martyrs. No one appreciates anyone who is willing die to make a point at how good she is. That double duty work horse thing, screw that. If you have a house and it’s dirty and you are married and you don’t feel like cleaning it, don’t do it. The guy will figure it out, either he will learn to clean or he’ll pay someone to do it or he’ll leave, so either way problem solved. I’m extremely messy, some people complain, but I don’t care. I feel if you are hungry lets go out to eat or make food together if you want the house super tidy marry a maid, because seriously that’s not something I’m spending my time on.

    Don’t get mad either. I never get mad in my personal relationships, because nothing is that big of a deal. Something goes wrong just be like whatever and take a bubble bath in the clean bathroom…lol..I see people do things and then complain so much its like, why are you doing this if it’s causing you so much pain. You hate cooking when you get home from a long hard day at work, don’t. Pretty simple.

    People will only do what you let them get away with.

    You don’t get extra brownie points for being superwoman you just get heart disease.

    I think too many black women put all of these things on their plate and think about all of the things they will HAVE to do if they get married to the wrong person or if they lose their job or if some other bad thing will happen, as if you can control every bad thing that happens. As if you have to do something, you don’t have to do anything. You could marry the perfect guy and he could drop dead leaving you with four kids and then the next day you could lose your job, who knows what will happen. Just live each day like it’s the last day, not in every part of your life, but don’t plan what you really can’t control anyway.

    And you know marriage if it seems so hard just don’t do it, it’s not supposed to be a miserable thing so if it is, maybe it’s not for you. If dating and things was always a struggle for you and you like hanging out with your girlfriends then maybe that’s what you are supposed to be doing. Don’t let society dictate what is ok or is not ok. The woman that never gets married statistically lives longer and is happier than those who do get married so in regards to marriage in its traditional state who does it benefit? Men. And if you play out your traditional role in marriage you are going to be a maid, a nanny, a cook and a lover, so don’t do that. Recognize traditional marriage is archaic and oppressing and that you can take charge and change what the definition of marriage is and what you role is in that and with most woman it’s simply about PUTTING THE DETERGENT AND FRYING PAN DOWN, just stop. Stop trying to be the perfect working woman/domestic goddess hybrid.

    Browne

  39. Spinster wrote:

    Eh. If it happens, it happens. If not, I don’t care. Marriage has never been on the top of my list of priorities.

    And since I also plan to be child-free, that drastically cuts down any chances of me getting hitched. If I were interested in getting married, I’d be very disappointed because of that.

    Good blog entry.

  40. Ailurophile wrote:

    Words of wisdom from Stephanie Coontz, on p. 285 of her “Marriage, A History:”

    “Historically, desperate is agreeing to marry a much older man whom you find physically repulsive. Desperate is closing your eyes to prostitutes and mistresses and hoping you don’t get a venereal disease. Desperate is having child after child because your husband won’t let you use birth control or covering the bruises you got last night when you hurry to the market to shop for his evening meal. Women today may be anxious about finding a mate, but most could not even imagine being that desperate.”

  41. browne wrote:

    I don’t think wanting to remain child-free will limit your chances of being married. I think it will limit your chances of being married to a certain kind of person, but you really don’t want to marry that person anyway. To me a guy that gets down on one knee pops out a big rock is a bad sign. It’s a bad sign, because it’s saying he’s going to expect you to be the traditional wife. You can’t have the ring, the nice wedding, but then want to be in a progressive marriage. Guys with engagement rings want to run you. I know its a generalization, but traditional “good” guys can’t let certain things go. (That’s why I had to divorce the first one.) They are going to expect you to be in a certain role. No you can’t have it all and trying to have it all will lead to misery.

    Of course though if you want to marry a professional type, well what did you expect? It’s hard for me to have sympathy for people who marry (or date) corporate lawyers, accountants… and then complain about the fact that they are being smothered or they aren’t meeting the right person. I mean truly you go out with the devil you are going to wake up burned…I don’t know if that is a saying, but you get where I’m going…

    Most truly progressive people aren’t exactly the most financially stable, so yeah on that level it might be a struggle, but you know the guy I’m with now, he’s awesome. I can create and be myself and while we are totally broke all of the time I see my friends with the “perfect” guy and they seem to have these kids to hold on or because they are running out of time and then they spend the rest of their life taking the kid there, buying gifts for this thing, making meetings for that thing, doing things for their husband and they may have what society calls a nice house and a nice car, but they don’t have any time for themselves.

    I’m not talking about women who are married to wealthy people and are able to do what they want because their husband is making 1+ million dollars a year after daddy and grandpa’s money kicks in, but 150k a year people. Those people don’t have the kind of freedom that it seems like 150k per year should buy. Making lots of upper middle class money seems to just bring you more problems.

    And it also seems to really mess you up when things go wrong. With this economy man, wow, my partner and I have always been broke, but man we now are running into friends who were financially successful who are almost living in their car or having to move in with inlaws.

    Thank god for living simply and having little overhead. My status has risen with this failing economy. I’m an expert at being broke. I’ve been broke for years.

  42. Ali wrote:

    @ atlasien – I loved your very thoughtful comment!

    Also, thanks for all the brilliant/patient responses to roger and pointofagreement. I thought about responding to their ignorance but instead went with my grandmother’s advice to “suffer no fools.”

  43. DivergentDana wrote:

    “I think women got to remember a man likes young women especially if he doesn’t have a wife at the age of about 30+ because that is usually the time when women start losing their attractiveness. ”

    I could see fertility as an issue, even hypocritical wariness on the part of fellow 30-somethings (you know, the “okay, what’s wrong with this one” thing) but attractiveness? You act as if a) older and younger women aren’t concerned about male attractiveness or b) men age any better than women, and the answers are they are and they don’t, respectively. Hell, there’s less cultural pressure for straight men to stay attractive (and even a stigma if they “work too hard” at it) and as a result, they’re less likely to hide signs of aging or even know how if they wanted to. Younger women notice that older men are older, and in an age where women are more independent, many, many of us have no interest in bridging the generation gap in that way. You can “like younger women” all you want, just know that there’s no guarantee that they’ll indulge you, that your “market value” doesn’t necessarily rise just because your salary does, and that perhaps we’d rather, by and large play with our peers than serve as scabs in the alleged marriage strike. Look at the stats… black men and women of the same age have about the same marriage rates, when the notoriously disparate outmarriage rates are accounted for.

    “So if wait until you are 30 or older you shouldn’t be picky with your choices. So black women you have a decision to make do you want to be lonely & possibly have a couple men in your life that showed you a good time but wasn’t marriage material & make the fat checks while wearing the boots of the household(single mother) or search for Mr. Right have those babies & share all your earnings/bills with someone that is trying to make it. I see so many professional women with bum a$$ men & this has to be the primary case that black women don’t put marriage on the pedestal until its almost too late.”

    Dude, you have to know that there aren’t equal amounts of black male and female professionals to begin with, and that’s the natural result — male hypergamy, something that the numbers would “demand” even if every professional black man married a professional black woman. Now let me ask you a question… if a professional man was with a non-professional woman, would you shake your head, call it a damn shame, and assume he ran out of options? If not, why not, Roger?

  44. DivergentDana wrote:

    And OMG, that Lori Gottleib article that pointofagreement posted is horrible. Did anyone else read it? Dude, that woman’s extreme opinion isn’t the norm among her age group of singles, and the experiences you’ve mentioned highlight that fact, so “useful primer”, it’s not.

  45. summer wrote:

    @browne –

    okay, girl, you got me hollerin over here. you are too through with pretending, huh? so now i’m curious: 1) how old are you, 2) did you know before your 1st marriage how you felt about traditional roles – or did you kind of find yourself along the way?

    i married young, divorced young as well (well, i thought it was young until ol’ roger set me straight there). and though i’m not as over the traditional roles as you, i can definitely understand your perspective. do you, girl.

  46. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @all –

    Good conversation. I am really glad that the vast majority of you stayed on topic and didn’t drop into stereotypes to explain your points. It gives me hope that we can discuss race and dating on Racialicious again.

    By the way, if you don’t see your comment, it is because you are just regurgitating stereotypes.

    That being said, carry on.

  47. Big Man wrote:

    On the marriage issue…

    Roger’s post may not have been eloquent, but if you ignore his comment about men looking at women different after they hit 30, you are wrong.

    I”m not saying it’s right, or that women can do anything about it, but I think it’s a fact that if a woman feels that she can only start considering marriage once she gets past 30, she may be missing out on her best opportunities. The way society is set up, it’s much easier for men to marry younger women and a lot of cats take advanatage of that.

    I don’t really see a solution, just thought I’d point out that there is some truth in the idea that men become less attracted to women once they are past 30. Not all men, but a substantial portion of them from what I’ve gathered talking to dudes.

    Women often underestimate how much weight men place on pure physical attractiveness.

  48. browne wrote:

    @ Summer:

    “okay, girl, you got me hollerin over here. you are too through with pretending, huh? so now i’m curious: 1) how old are you:” summer

    I’m 30, but I’m 25 in the right lighting and big sunglasses…lol…ok I’m very comfortable with being 30, though I do lie about it, hey I’m not completely progressive. I have my hang ups, that’s pretty much my only one, but I guess that’s sort of big since you can’t exactly stop aging, unless you die and that seems pretty much a drastic step to stay young forever.

    “2) did you know before your 1st marriage how you felt about traditional roles – or did you kind of find yourself along the way? ” Well, I was always a bit not too into the traditional marriage, but this is what happened. I’m 18 I’m in college. I meet cute guy. He is nice. He was also 18. I was always very progressive and he was always more conservative, but when we were young it was fun. We graduate from school at 21 we move in together, he pops out a ring and we get married. (Went to an all women’s Catholic school and though it was progressive lots of us were engaged or close to it by graduation or soon after graduation.) I continue to be freaky and he starts to get all business and dot comish. I quit my first job in business though I’m a philosophy major making 50k per year (I am a very good sales person) and decide to focus more on my freelance writing and to go in to community organizing for 10 dollars per hour part time, but really full time, but they could only pay part time. Time passes he’s taking me to friends birthday parties on yachts and I’m talking about how their greediness is disgusting at these same parties. I’m also writing what he would call inflamatory bullshit. He never understood my writing, which was highly offensive to me. He’s asking me when I’m going to stop helping people and writing all of this nonsense and I ask him when is going to stop being a capitalist bastard, so I guess from there it all went down hill. We became very distant. We went overseas. I felt like that chick in Lost in Translation. To make a long story short I ended up cheating on him with a poet. We try to make it work, but some things you can’t fix and neither of us were broken we just didn’t fit together, you can’t bank a circle into a square and vice versa.

    Yeah so that’s how I became a 25 year old divorcee. I got alot of, “Oh my god!!” comments, but less so now.

    “i married young, divorced young as well (well, i thought it was young until ol’ roger set me straight there). and though i’m not as over the traditional roles as you, i can definitely understand your perspective. do you, girl.” summer

    I can understand the perspective of traditional marriage, but I ‘m just not like that and I think alot of people aren’t, but they don’t know how to put it into words or they think they are weird and you know it’s not weird to not want that. I think the thing is that what most women expect from traditional marriage is a lie. It doesn’t exist and if you spend so much time on this lie when it blows up in your face what you left with? Doesn’t seem like much. I think TV does the most damage here which is why I don’t watch it.

    I understand the appeal of a traditional marriage, but that traditional marriage is a lie, well it’s not a lie. It’s like prom. You know you got all excited about it and you get all dressed up and then when it is over you are like this is what all of the stress is about, this, well to me that’s what my marriage felt like, a really long prom night. I got some good pictures, but it was real dumb.

    Browne

  49. D wrote:

    My personal view on marriage:
    Your article absolutely resonates with me. I’m 26 year-old black female and I don’t see the need to get married, at least not in the traditional sense. I live on my own in Manhattan, read alot, volunteer, practice yoga, run marathons, travel frequently, and speak 3 languages. I have the freedom to come and go as I please, expand my knowledge and senses and have passionate affairs with the men of my choosing from all over the world.

    I love my life, usually (HA!) and can’t imagine giving up my options to slave over a hot stove, change dirty diapers, but ultimately be robbed of the things that make me me. This my be considered a selfish view point, but just because I’m a woman should not mean that my future is confined to a life of domesticity. I’m not sitting around waiting for a man, of any race, to “complete me”. I don’t think that your partner should be your everything. I don’t believe in “letting yourself go” after marriage or emasculating your husband so that he can’t stand the sight of you. The whining, needy insecurity bit that women have perfected over the years is foreign to me, I have better things to do with my time. Also, I do not believe in monogamy, and I’ll just say it, I don’t think anyone really does. People just do, or pretend to do what is expected of them and live their lives in a blanket of shame and secrecy. Sex, if your doing it right and responsibly, is one of the greatest gifts we have been given and I’ll be damned if I have to endure stale lovemaking for the rest of my life.

    If I were to find a man that was progressive as I am, who believed in loyalty and openness and respected my independence, I would be definitely investigate the possibility of something real, but progressive or not, the pickin’s are slim to non existent.

    Like many black women with nil options for suitable black men to date, I work on myself. The downside to this is that we become further and further out of the league of the average black man. I have seen beautiful, fit, Ivy League grad black women seriously date security guards with GED’s,, who have no aspirations for higher education. They are willing to forgo intellectual stimulation, having common interests, balanced earning potential,etc, just to say that they have a man.

    One the flip-side college educated, upwardly mobile black men have it a little easier. Because they are empowered by the fact that they’re an anomaly, they have been known to be dismissive and elusive as they rely on their status to equal their worth. Something like “I’m a black doctor, so YOU have to impress me”. So in conclusion it seems like we’ll never be on the same page.

    But all that aside, it is truly a sad state of affairs in the black community when it comes to male- female relationships and family structure. It is totally acceptable for a man to abandon his family or woman he created a child with, and it is totally acceptable for a woman to have 3 children by 3 different fathers. This is irresponsible and deplorable behavior. The fact that “Baby Momma and Baby Daddy” have replaced wife, mother, husband and father are truly saddening.

    A family is something that needs to be planned, nurtured and requires dedication and yes, suffering. It is to be taken seriously not, excuse my French, pissed out and walked away from. I’m tired of going to family gatherings of black friends or even my own, where the only black men present are in their 70’s or hanging from their mother’s teet.

    Black people really need to take a step back and reevaluate how to proceed for the betterment of themselves and ultimately the race. It is about time for the self-hatred that plaques our community to be erased, and it starts with us.

    We deserve happiness, love, security, family vacations, health, whatever, and we can find it in each other, but our minds really need to change in order to embrace that. But until that day happens, I have found all of those things in myself.

  50. Dana wrote:

    If you want to know why people don’t get married–look at the ways that they describe it. Anything with such a bad reputation as marriage seems to have today–would not be desirable. If all you have to look forward to is double the work and stale sex with someone you’re only pretending to like–I’d say stay single.

  51. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Women often underestimate how much weight men place on pure physical attractiveness.”

    And vice versa.

  52. Eva wrote:

    @Big Man:

    You may have a point but, I know plenty of women who would never date an unattractive man, as for men thinking that women are unattractive over thirty, think about this.

    I’m nearly fifty, in my experience women are healthier on the inside than men are. So many men I know who are forty and fiftysomething have all kinds of internal health problems. Women may age on the outside but IMO, aging on the inside is worse.

  53. L. wrote:

    “Women often underestimate how much weight men place on pure physical attractiveness.”

    Which is why I’d rather stay single…

  54. barbara wrote:

    I am anBlack American (I have decided to no longer use the term African American, my parents and grandparents were Black during the civil rights struggle and I am Black now) woman who is divorced. I would love to get married again but will not settle for less than I deserve. Simple as that. Personally I think marriage is between a man and woman who love each other, this is true to my faith, and my view will not change. I still love and respect those who don’t want to get married or whose views on the definition of marriage oppose mine, that is also true to my faith.

  55. barbara wrote:

    I wonder why it is always the unwed or unhappily married people who badmouth marriage? Just a thought…..

  56. tony302 wrote:

    Great article! Thanks for the perspectives.

    One minor point–the nice quote on marriage you cite is actually from a commencement address by Kurt Vonnegut. I did find it on YouTube set to music under the name of Baz Luhrman, but the words are from Kurt.

  57. robot wrote:

    D, I agree with some aspects of your post and I think you make some interesting points. But, I’m a little confused by other aspects of your post. You confess to having little interest in monogamy or marriage. You say you don’t think anyone really believes in monogamy, that people just pretend to. Yet, you express dismay that some Black people are unwed parents.

    You wrote:
    “It is totally acceptable for a man to abandon his family or woman he created a child with, and it is totally acceptable for a woman to have 3 children by 3 different fathers. This is irresponsible and deplorable behavior. The fact that “Baby Momma and Baby Daddy” have replaced wife, mother, husband and father are truly saddening.”

    There is no excuse for being a deadbeat parent. But, why – if you don’t mind me asking – do you think that it’s wrong for these Black women to have children with multiple men? It’s possible these women/men – like you – don’t believe in monogamy or marriage either. Do you think these parents being in open/non-monogamous marriages would be better than not being married at all? And, I’d disagree that this is considered acceptable. I’m sure these women deal with people calling them all types of names from “ghetto” to “welfare queen.” On a similar note, I wonder how the press (and the general internet) has been reacting to Erykah Badu’s pregnancy. I believe she’s pregnant with her 3rd child; all of her children have different fathers. Is she being criticized? Does the fact that she’s rich/upper class temper people’s reactions to her? I’m curious about what the response has been to Ms. Badu.

    This is slightly off-topic, but a book on single mothers was released a few years ago (I can’t remember the name or the title, unfortunately). The book focused on young lower-class women of color who believed the stigma of being divorced was much worse than the stigma of being an unwed mother. It sounded interesting.

  58. Michele wrote:

    ~ It was extremely disheartening to me, reading this article, and knowing, in my heart, there were so many truths spoken. As a sistah, in midlife, I realize that though I grew up, with a Mama and father who instilled in me, an independent spirit, encouragement to “do my own thing” and be confident about it, I realized, post divorce, eleven years ago, that I married a brotha that seemed threatened by my independent spirit. I tried to “fight for our relationship”, but the reality was that I was the only one fighting for our relationship.
    I so agree with the article ’s mention of “making your relationship what you want it to be”, but, what if you’re the only one fighting for your love to last? It’s been my observation that so many sistahs are fighting alone; maybe through suggestions of marital counseling or spiritual advisement.
    My heart yearns to find that soul mate, that life’s mate, however, I will continue to savor my aloneness until I meet that special someone who respects me and loves me unconditionally, as I will him.

  59. browne wrote:

    I think the talk of the security guard is kind of mean. If a security guard loves you so what if he has a GED. A GED means he finished something, good enough.

    See this is my thing if you want to have a progressive relationship and you want to be with a person who thinks, then why are you limiting who can think? I have met some brilliant, smart, way interesting men who are security guards and postal workers. I met a trash man who I thought was super hot, but he thought I was too weird.

    If you think it’s horrible for men to judge us on our age and size then isn’t it also horrible for us to judge men by some stupid standard that says college educated is the end all be all of whatever it is that is all that?

    And also you can date any kind of man he can be white, black, latino, asian, biracial etc…I think a black man will appreciate you more if he knows he’s not the only game in town. Any guy will appreciate you more if he knows he is not the only game in town. Who doesn’t like a bit of a challenge? In college black guys are very rare, grad school even more rare, but if a black guy has ten black women chasing after him and he knows you aren’t going to go out with the perfectly nice white, asian, latino etc guy that’s right there, just because they aren’t black, well hey it’s human nature.

    If you dog pile someone, they are going to be a dog regardless of a race.

    In college I saw lots of that. I sometimes think the over inflated ego of the black man college graduated is something sadly the black woman created. If there are ten of you and one guy nine of you are going to have to let the whole sticking with the race thing go and go out with an Indian guy, that’s all I’m saying.

    I’m not of the school of you are limiting yourself by only dating black men, but I am of the school of if the market is saturated you need to go to a different market.

    Browne

  60. LaurynX wrote:

    “I wonder why it is always the unwed or unhappily married people who badmouth marriage? Just a thought…..”

    People badmouth what they don’t like. It’s just that simple. Why would you speak highly of something that isn’t/will not work for you? Of course this doesn’t de-legitimize marriage for those whom it does work for. If you’re offended that people don’t like marriage ignore it.

  61. bdsista wrote:

    Hey Roger, you can go to my website and see what 50 looks like. I married at 40 to a man who was 30 and still am open to dating a range of ages. So, I think that comment about over 30 is bogus.

    Now, putting on the Family Law Attorney hat… Marriage has a lot of legal benefits, one in particular is that a home owned by two spouses is not subject to seizure if one of them declares bankruptcy as it is held as Tenants in the Entireties. If you live together out of marriage you are Tenants in Common and creditors of either one of you could go after the property. Also there are rights of inheritance as a spouse that can potentially challenge a will excluding the spouse. If your spouse walks away from the relationship, you are entitled to a marital award of the portions of the property. All property acquired during the marriage is marital property and subject to division upon divorce. If you live together, none of these rights apply (at least in MD). You would have to base your argument on fairness, equity and potentially contract law. There is also the right to pensions, social security benefits, etc.

    Children have rights because they are entitled to support by law. Also, married couples IMO are more likely to get approved for mortgages and other loans that help build wealth, especially if they are POC. Its nice to talk about the icing, but there are some very tangible legal benefits to marriage. Although ending it legally can be hell. Not as romantic, but the populations who do not marry also suffer certain economic conditions due to the legal ramifications of that choice.

  62. Asada wrote:

    http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20245927,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

    Roger, is this what you mean???
    I hope it works out for them!!!

  63. Bianca wrote:

    @ Robot:
    Over the summer, Erykah responded (on Okayplayer) to the criticism of her familial structure/love life/etc. She went hard.
    You can read what many think about the issues at hand and Erykah’s defense here: http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1766635&mesg_id=1766635&page

    It’s amazing how quick folks are to define how others should live.

    @ Roger:
    ………… you’re serious?

  64. Anonymous wrote:

    I totally agree with your view that marriage is different for everybody. I know some couples who are married living in separate bedrooms with separate bank accounts and they are very happy.

  65. Cobra wrote:

    Following up on “D” and “Browne”–

    I don’t know what colleges and universities the women posting here went to, but my experience as an African-American male in college taught me that just being present didn’t avail me of any special attention from sistahs.

    Now, if I was a star athlete, had family wealth (prominantly displayed via shiny, expensive materialism), belonged to the “right” fraternity, or acted in the most thuggish, street-like fashion, then perhaps a few more smiles would’ve been aimed my way.

    Can this be explained away based on the attitudes of many young women regardless of ethnicity in terms of attraction? Perhaps. But I’m betting that there are thousands of Black men like me who would tell you the same story.

    –Cobra

  66. Marcy Webb wrote:

    I appreciate Tami’s s truth on marriage, and appreciate her sharing it with us.

    That said, I have always been ambivalent re: marriage, despite the fact that my dear parents have been married 46 years, and my maternal grandparents for over 53 years, before my maternal grandfather passed away in 1984. It has never been a high priority for me.

    Additionally, I have not yet met a man as good or as reliable as my father. They say a woman marries a man like her father. My brother comes in a close second. :)

    Moreover, I am *not* interested in marrying a man who has attained less than I have attained. Call it what you will, but, I place a high premium on marrying well, i.e. marrying a man who is compatible with me in most ways. I’m not interested in “compatible enough.” So, on that premise, the “right one” has not come along. So true.

    Could it just be that there are women, for reasons based on their own truths – truths that are as valid as Tami’s truth – who simply don’t want to get married?