On Tyra: Biracial Women Who Hate Their Other Side
by Latoya Peterson
Checking my Clutch feeds, I stumbled across this video from the Tyra show*. Literally, the title of the post sums it up. It’s about biracial folks who hate one side or the other.
The video is 32 minutes long.
The video features Jenna, who is half black and half white, who denies her blackness; Tabitha, who is half latina and half white, who denies her whiteness; Jaselle, who is black and Puerto Rican, who denies her PR heritage; and Sohn (her segment was not included in the video I watched.)
While Tyra focused more on Jenna for the majority of the segments, but the other guests actually brought up some really good points about race and identity.
Jenna appears to have been a ratings ploy - she espouses extreme hatred of other blacks, denies of all positive aspects of her non-white heritage, reaffirms stereotypes as truth, explains a preference for a “white” way of living, proudly displays three rebel flags (using the customary “get over it, it’s heritage not hate, it’s in the past” defenses without any acknowledgment of her own contradiction) and even has a photo of her in makeshift Klan gear.
[One of the Clutch commenters called her a sighted Clayton Bigsby. Was Chapelle’s art imitating life? Or was that skit based on a true story?]
Yeah…moving on.
Tabitha discussed very frankly her hatred of whites, explaining that whites all have the same views, they look at her differently, she has never been perceived as white, and that most whites were racist. (The irony of her own generalizations seems to be lost on her.) However, a much more toned down version of this dynamic has been described to me by my biracial friends - that they felt excluded more so from whiteness, than from blackness (though there was friction on both sides, normally.) Tabitha’s experience of embracing her nonwhite identity is a common one. Her conclusions, though, weren’t interesting, and she wasn’t able to provide much rationale as to why all whites were included in her hatred when the actions were taken by a few.
Jaselle, who is black and Puerto Rican, also cited an additional issue when it comes to formulating identity - being estranged or excluded from one side of the family. While most of her responses where stereotypes (she hates PR girls because they dress trashy - the example she gave was sneakers with skinny jeans, which prompted an irate response from Tyra), she did mention that she never really knew her Puerto Rican father - all the family she has ever known has been black.
The next segment presented three women who are often mistaken for being biracial - though they are all African-American by birthright. All three women felt anger at having their racial identity overwritten in the eyes of others since they did not phenotypically conform to the standard idea of “blackness.”
An interesting twist in this conversation occurred when a member of the audience stood up and called the women’s complexions into question. Kandice mentioned intra-racial issue with colorism, saying that people often assumed things about her personality based on her fairer skin and longer hair. She asked for people not to make assumptions based on how she looks.
In response, the audience member (Janell) stood up and said that while African Americans share similar struggles, the world perceives light skinned women and dark skinned women differently, and so their movements through the world receive a different kind of reaction. She points out how when people are excited to guess Kandice’s race, “the excitement that they feel for you reflects the contempt that they feel toward me.” She also called herself “slave black,” which she is using in the sense that she is unambiguous. Kandice pushes back, explaining that negative or positive perceptions of skin tone are based in society’s ranking system - not perpetuated by her personally.
Janell talks about how the women still have it easier, and points out that society caters to a lighter skinned version of blackness. At this point, Adriea comes in to the conversation, explaining how difficult it was for her to be teased about her fair skin and hair texture and how she often wished she was darker so she would fit in.
The clip jumps again, and this time, it’s Yolanis, a new introduction to the stage, discussing how frustrating it is to be constantly called Mexican when her nationality is Nicaraguan. She also says she doesn’t want to be associated with “that.”
Yolanis mentions she hates being hit on by Mexican men, which prompts Tyra to pretend to be men of different nationalities trying to spit game. She provides stereotypical representations of white men, French men, Italian men, and black men. The next panelist, Mercedes, is often mistaken for being Spanish/Italian, but she is actually Mexican. (She slides an uncomfortable glance toward Yolanis.)
Yunis is ethnically Korean, often mistaken for Chinese. Yunis discusses how she is often subject to racist taunts that are intended for Chinese people. Margo is Chinese, but is often mistaken for being Korean. Margo shares her low opinion of Koreans to the audience.
Tyra concludes that this goes to show that intra-racial hatred is a cross-cultural phenomenon.
She then says to Margo “I feel sad that I feel more connected to Koreans than you do, and you’re Chinese!”
Huh?
Tyra, quit while you’re behind.
Ultimately, the episode has value, but it was a really strange viewing experience. More often than not, Tyra relied on stereotypes to add humor or to make a point, and didn’t appear to hear what the participants were really saying about their own identities.
That being said, I thought the participants brought up some really interesting ideas about multiracial identity, intra-group struggles and complexion issues. Commenters, what struck you the most about the issues raised on the program?
*Note to Carmen - Dude, you’re slipping. Once the pre-eminent Tyra hater, I’m surprised you weren’t all over this one. I should have at least gotten an eyeroll in an email or something. And no Keanu updates either? If this keeps up, we’ll have to change the mission statement.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Eva wrote:
I think I might have seen Jenna before, or someone like her. Years ago on Maury Povich’s show there was a young woman who was half black, half Polish, from Chicago. She’d never met her black relatives. She considered herself white, even though she looked black, the audience really didn’t get her at all.
I’m black but I don’t get upset anymore when people think I’m Hispanic. It doesn’t happen just in the US either, it’s happened in Senegal, Gambia and Nassau. I guess people have their own opinions as to what black, or Hispanic or white looks like. I say, you never can tell.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶
Rob wrote:
Judging from that clip, Jenna seems 100% black. I’d expect her comments to come from someone who was obviously of mixed ethnicity like Tyra or Beyonce.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
Monie wrote:
Hi Latoya,
I saw this Tyra and it was over-the-top. So much so that I really didn’t believe some of these women really held these views, especially the very African American appearing clan outfit wearing, rebel flag toting woman.
This is a great example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Tyra often times comes up with interesting topics but then totally ruins it by finding these “Springer” like guests.
If she were to just tone it down a bit I think her show could be a positive influence.
Also, it’s always difficult to take Tyra seriously when she talks about self-acceptance while wearing a 20 pound weave and blue contacts.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 12:52 pm ¶
kenda wrote:
I’m not a fan of the Tyra show, but I did see this episode on youtube. I thought Jenna was a joke. She was sooooo over the top that I didn’t believe a word she said.
The other girls made more realistic (though flawed) points. This show would have been a lot better if there had been a in-depth discussion with just a few guests. Then perhaps Tyra could have got down to the meat of what they were actually saying as opposed to relyling on stereotypes.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 1:16 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:
i always hate shows like this…for obvious reasons…but particularly for their complete jumbling up of race and ethnicity
hispanic/latin@ is not a race, it’s an ethnicity
so u can be of african, european, asian, and/or indigenous descent and still be hispanic…
they are not exclusive terms
ughhhh!!!!
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:
or i should say…all those things AND be hispanic/latino
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶
ladymaati wrote:
My son’s bi-racial. Thankfully, I had to forsight to rise him to be proud of himself, not his skin tone. He never hated either side of himself but he noticed how whites treated him when he was with me(black) or his father(white). And he didn’t like it. He still has some ‘what are you’ moments with people as a senior in HS but he’s real good at educating people about when they’re being offensive. His hope is that intra-racial will end with Obama. I hope he’s right.
A couple days ago, he told me about one of his white friends’ parent talking about ‘those’ (meaning black) people so so this & that. (some nonsense about Obama’s pick for surgeon general) When my son’s friend said my son, CJ, was black, the parent tried to clarifiy his statement as to not look like a racist. My son just shook he head & said,”Everyone will look like me soon. Why you afraid of being beige? You wear it all the time?”
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 1:59 pm ¶
sylvie wrote:
“Yunis discusses how she is often subject to racist taunts that are intended for Chinese people.”
I hate to assume or to downplay her troubles, but the people hurling “Chink” at Yunis probably aren’t trying to be ethnically specific with their hate-mongering. Remember that lovely racist concept of “You all look/are the same?”
It’s why Tyra thinks Chinese and Koreans should automatically have some special bond, more so than Koreans and Blacks or Chinese and Blacks.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:01 pm ¶
Angel H. wrote:
raises hand…
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:04 pm ¶
Angel H. wrote:
“You’re mixed, arent’ you?” is the second-most question I’m asked. Next to “Where are you from?” (Being an Air Force brat has given me a weird, amalgamated language. ;-p)
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶
Angel H. wrote:
*sorry for the double (now triple) post!
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶
Angel H. wrote:
oops…language –> accent.
Note to self: PROOFREAD!
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:08 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:
I keep getting stuck at the title of this post (is it directly from the Tyra show itself?), going back and forth on whether or not it’s an accurate description. “Biracial Women Who Hate Their Other Side” at first made no sense to me: their “other” side to what?
Thinking more deeply about it, it implies that one half of the women’s racial/ethnic background is *what they essentially are*, it is what is central, authentic, natural; the “other side” is then something that is alien, strange, indeed foreign. And while that notion is terribly problematic from my POV, I guess it does fit into these women’s own personal logic and feelings. So now when I read the title of the post, I pronounce it differently in my head, with an emphasis on the word “other”: Biracial Women Who Hate Their OTHER Side.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:12 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Monie -
Yes, the over the top, Springerish dynamic was there. Which is a shame, because I feel like a lot of these segments were rushed. Any one of the segments could have been a whole show, but they were just cramming it all in there.
@Queerhapa -
Yep, exactly from the show notes. (They did change the title online though - at one point it was that, and when I went back to fact check, it became “Can people guess your race?” which I suppose is a less controversial way to summarize the topic.
And yes, your summation is correct - the women on the first segment expressed feeling at odds with this “other” side of themselves, relating fully to one part of their racial background and applying stereotypes to the other.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:17 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:
Thanks for watching this and reporting back, Latoya. That’s interesting about the different title they gave it. I tried to watch myself, but as soon as Tyra said they had the studio audience guess the race of the guests I quickly hit the stop button. Yay Tyra for perpetuating the idea that racially/ethnically ambiguous people are circus freaks whose identities are subject to public debate!
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:34 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Queerhapa -
There was also a public shaming if you didn’t look like what you identified with. But that’s a whole other issue…
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 2:42 pm ¶
Marge Twain wrote:
Monie- When have you seen Tyra wear blue contacts? If she did as part of a modeling gig, it’s still not something I’ve seen her do on her own shows.
Is everyone with weaves/extensions not accepting of their own blackness, or just Tyra?
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 3:30 pm ¶
Marge Twain wrote:
“She then says to Margo ‘I feel sad that I feel more connected to Koreans than you do, and you’re Chinese!”
I didn’t think this was bad. She talked about how she finds commonality with Ken Mok based on their both being PoC and having both been stereotyped or marginalized. The Chinese and the Korean women both want to be seen as individuals, yet they persist in stereotyping one another. Don’t most of us see parallels between our experiences and those of other PoC?
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 4:04 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Marge -
While I am invested in the global brown school of thought, Tyra still relied on a stereotypical assumption that Margo & Yunis both tried to debunk - that because they are both “Asian” they should have some ideas about kinship based on dint of birth, and even more so because they are both from Asian nations. However, this does not take into account the history China and Korea have had with one another, which feeds the stereotypes, nor does it explain why Tyra found it *especially* bad that Chinese people and Korean people could harbor negative stereotypes against each other.
In our racial construction (which it appears Tyra is speaking from) Asians are a large group - but the actual nationality issues are much farther reaching than we normally discuss.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 4:08 pm ¶
Leigh-Anne wrote:
I sent my fiancé a link to this video and he immediately pointed out that Jenna sounds familiar…
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I deny my white side, but when I’m called “white bitch” I’m very quick to correct people and say, “that’s MS Coloured Bitch to you”.
I don’t get angry when people think I’m white. I just hate it when they assume that that’s all that I am. Because I’m not. I’m a proud, happy mixture. And I think it really sucks when people look at me, hear my accent and immediately assume that I can’t possibly be coloured… “Because coloured girls don’t act that way”.
After all, everyone knows, coloured people are uneducated drunks who do nothing but sit on street corners and make babies. They’re gangsters and prostitutes…
I am 24. Despite my frequent tanning, I remain light. I have long hair that moves in the wind. I’m in a management position at a large IT company. I don’t have any children, much less the prerequisite two from two different fathers to proclaim my “authenticity”…
And that’s probably exactly why I’m so quick to point out that I am, in fact, coloured… Because as long as South Africans still believe that “coloured” acts a certain way, we’ll never move forward.
Awesome post, as always Latoya!
And yes, I do agree with you, we’re looooong overdue for a Keanu update!
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 4:21 pm ¶
Julienne wrote:
It’s a pet peeve of mine when people ask, “What is your nationality?” when it seems like they are trying to ask “What is your ethnic background?”
If Tyra were to ask me “What is your nationality?” my response would be “American” even though I know that the answer to the question she’s trying to ask is “Filipino.”
Drives me crazy…
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 4:46 pm ¶
Marcus Kwame wrote:
Man, that was hard to watch. I didn’t make it all the way through. Self-hate is ugly in all of it’s forms. That being said, Janelle was straight up scary!
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 4:51 pm ¶
Marcus Kwame wrote:
excuse me, i meant Jenna.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 4:52 pm ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:
Re “hispanic/latin@ is not a race, it’s an ethnicity”: Right…so if someone is half Latino and half white or black, are they really biracial? Are they bi-ethnic? Or what, exactly?
My young nephews fall into this category since my brother is white and my sister-in-law is Latina. They’re bi-something. But I’m guessing they’re unaware that they have two “halves.” I strongly doubt that they dislike one half more than the other, so they wouldn’t work as Tyra guests.
Of course, my sis-in-law is lightskinned and probably passes for a non-Latina Caucasian in most settings. So my nephews undoubtedly pass for white. But I think the point I’m trying to make holds. This generation is more colorblind than my generation was, and that’s a good thing.
Maybe I’ll ask my brother how my nephews perceive themselves when we get together for Thanksgiving. Then maybe I’ll ask my nephews what they think of Indians such as those at the first Thanksgiving. As bi-somethings, they probably don’t realize that their Latino ancestors were part Indian.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 5:02 pm ¶
Jess wrote:
I couldn’t tell much about the personal histories of most of the guests. But I think Latoya’s point about knowing one side or the other of the family has a lot of relevance here.
Look, I’d be pretty irritated if my mom had left the family, and I could certainly see buying into a few Asian-overachiever stereotypes as a result, if the stars of my psyche aligned the right (wrong) way.
But really, I didn’t buy a lot of what they were saying, especially the woman in the Klan outfit. I know a few biracial families, and the ones where people generally get along don’t seem to have these issues about which part of you is what you are or aren’t.
My family is multiracial by any definition. The only “big issue” was that the n-word — heck, any racial slur — was absolutely unacceptable. I got slapped more than once when I imitated my friends using them.
I think if more families did that women like these on Tyra’s shows would be in a better place, you know?
I dunno. I can’t get too uptight over being “mistaken” for latino (because I speak and understand Spanish and have generic skin and hair just dark enough –I’ve been told more than once I bear an uncanny resemblance to Marc Anthony. Of course, the first time I heard that I had no idea who he was — in 1995. How unhip is that?).
If I go to other parts of the world the mistakes like that reflect it, too– in Europe I’m a Russian (of the Eastern variety) or a Spaniard (somehow nobody has guessed Italian). In Asia I’m a generic Westerner. The point is?
I mean, it’s just not something that matters to my life. Ninety percent of the time I don’t know the person making the mistake and couldn’t give a rat’s ass what they think. What’s the point? We’re visual creatures, and I don’t go around with a sign around my neck outlining every ancestor. It would be too long a conversation. Not that it’s not an interesting one — but if I kept on trying to have it every time I stepped out the door I’d never get anything done.
Have I had anyone treat me badly because of such a mistake? Maybe. But it’s never escalated to the point where I could get that mad about it. It also leaves you in a weird position: “No, I ain’t a latin gangbanger, I’m an Asian Jew!” Am I the only one who would feel really, really stupid saying that?
In families where the interaction between “sides” is healthy, it seems to me the identity issues are less pressing, or at least able to be explored in a healthy way. And ultimately, since these identities are socially constructed anyway, a kid of one or more races often ends up choosing (consciously or not) which s/he wants to identify with, and has the option to do so in a way that other people might not.
I mean, I was gifted with a lot of options like that, and I consider myself lucky to be in that position. But it’s just random chance, you know?
Am I making sense? Am I the only one here who felt a kind of artificiality in the discussion, like queerhapa? Like something was just wrong? Like a lot of these women were working out issues other than racial identity, and that the racial identity discussion was a proxy for other problems? Or am I just missing the whole point, blinded by Tyra-hatred?*
*OK, I don’t hate Tyra. I just can’t help but giggle whenever I hear her try to discuss something “serious.”
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 5:14 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
A lot of women that appear on these talk shows and say stuff that’s completely insane are, in fact, completely making it up. And a lot of them are strippers.
Strippers appear on these talk shows to promote themselves, even though they almost never mention that they’re strippers. A lot of strip clubs will even advertise “you’ve seen our girls (or guys) on talk shows such as __”.
So without even watching the clip, I’d bet Jenna is a lying stripper with a shock-story du jour.
I’m not condemning strippers… I just used to work in a strip club (though not as a stripper) and noticed the dynamic.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 5:29 pm ¶
Marge Twain wrote:
Latoya, I see what you’re saying, and I’d agree if I’d seen her single them out, but by that point she’d said similar things to the black girls and expressed open-mouthed incredulity at the Mexican/Puerto Rican women. I really think her POV is consistent with the global brown school. She’s not saying they’re all alike, she’s saying “Look what you have in common; you’re facing the same shit, and yet, what you don’t want done to you, you’re doing to her”
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 5:41 pm ¶
Asada wrote:
Too easy,
They choose people who clearly hate themselves and dont seem to know anything about themselves either. They all sound like they watch TV and believe it.
Another Maury knockoff.
I didn’t think it was very fair, but I do appreciate thier honesty. You just don’t get that out of the “pure” other half of her heritage anyway.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 5:42 pm ¶
Veronica wrote:
As I’ve said with many a Tyra show… I appreciate her effort, but it always seems to fall short.
(An aside: Tyra is my guilty pleasure, but I think the show actually does a better job of serving its purpose — whatever that might be — when an actual expert is there to talk about the issue of the day. Definitely works better than Tyra’s smile-with-your-eyes psychology.)
Anyway… the segment with the three black women resonated with me the most, as I too am a fair-skinned black woman who’s often singled out as being “something else.” It was uncomfortable, because I understood the guests’ pain (being shunned by other blacks), only to hear it matched by the audience member, who had her own traumatic experiences with being dark-skinned.
But what hurt the most is that, for a moment, the two sides were going at each other, arguing over who has it worse. (Oppression olympics, anyone?) But really, one side being mad at the other doesn’t solve anything, because no one chooses the skin color they’re born with.
The whole segment, I wanted to say, “Get mad at society! Not each other!” I don’t think I can take much more of black women picking fights with each other because of the unfair rules of a larger society.
But hey… that’s just me.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 6:52 pm ¶
stankerbell wrote:
i really hate shows like this because it also perpetuates that belief that all biracials are “confused” and adds ammo to that arsenal of parental questions if you happen to be seriously dating someone of another race.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 6:57 pm ¶
ambre wrote:
@queerhapa - I totally feel you.
I second the thanks to Latoya for reporting on this - I made it through a portion of the video, skipping around… it was really painful. The whole Jerry Springer approach made a potentially interesting discussion into a “freak show.”
I also wanted to mention my annoyance at how in being “biracial” or mixed was only shown as being _____+ white or ______ + black. Apparently non-white or black mixed folk aren’t as interesting.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 7:03 pm ¶
aka lynn wrote:
Even though phenotypes vary, and Jenna’s father wasn’t present on the show, I failed to see any obvious admixture in her and wonder whether someone lied to her, or if she’s in complete denial on her own. However, after listening to her mother struggle foolishly with her own identity, I could see that apples may not fall far from the tree.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 7:33 pm ¶
Paz wrote:
Alright, well I am going to be bold and post something positive on this ep. LoL.
-I’ve seen Tyra’s show occasionally, and she seems to be really into race. She often mismanages the topic, or makes it more fluff than substance, but I appreciate the fact that she actually brings up topics, and resists the “white = neutral” idea that many media outlets have.
-When discussing race, she often has a Caucasian, Black, Hispanic and maybe Asian, but I am glad that she shows that there is a wider spectrum within each group in terms of appearance and attitudes. And I am glad that she included a Middle Eastern girl!
-And although she worked the stereotypes, I was happy that she pointed out that it’s not just the Mexican men that check you out. And I’m glad that she brought the Nicaraguan girl because I have seen so many times Latinos get insulted by being called Mexican, or don’t want to be called Latino because in many American eyes it equals Mexican (which further = dirty illegal immigrant). *Being half Mexican, I’ve often had difficulty not internalizing certain things, so I appreciated that haphazard segment.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 7:45 pm ¶
Michele wrote:
I think Tyra and Beyonce both have 2 black parents.
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 9:07 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
As the father of two little boys who are bi-racial, I hope to be able to raise both of them to be comfortable enough in their own skin to never feel the need to deny either side of their heritage.
I didnt watch the show, but I have known a couple of women like this.
I knew a girl when I was growing up. She was half white and half black. She hated anything black. She hung around white power skinheads, would scream white power and give the Nazi salute.
She insisted that her mother was raped by a black man. That might or might not have been true, but she did hate black people and she was way over the top and this was before Jerry Springer or Tyra.
What made it more interesting, if that is the right word, is that she was very dark complected. Most people would not have thought she was bi-racial.
There was a Nazi skinhead convicted of attacks against Jews and non whites who turned out to be American Indian, his name is “Michael Bloom” from AZ.
What about the Jewish guys in Israel convicted recently for Nazi attacks?
I always felt bad for people like this, how miserable must it be to hate 50% of yourself?
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 11:35 pm ¶
rosmar wrote:
On “Latin@ is an ethnicity,” it isn’t quite that simple. I’m Mexican-American, which is my ethnicity. I’m also Latina, which is definitely a racialized category, and encompasses many ethnicities. I would say the Latin@ category is somewhere between a race and an ethnicity, falling smoothly into neither.
(Lots of identity categories are as complex when we really look closely at them, which makes sense because race is socially constructed.)
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 11:47 pm ¶
rosmar wrote:
(So that I don’t think about this later and feel dishonest, I am also Dutch-American. I don’t hate that “side” of me, it just didn’t seem relevant when I was typing the comment above.)
Posted 26 Nov 2008 at 11:48 pm ¶
Tony wrote:
I’ve always found the “hate one side” people rather amusing.
I’m very mixed (my ‘black’ father has white in his ancestry, my ‘white’ mother is part Choctaw tribe Native American)
I like all my sides, I admit I tend to be what is more considered ‘white’ in terms of culture. (Mostly because I like heavy metal, goth and punk stuff, which are stereotypically white).
I’ve never understood how anyone can be ashamed of their ancestry when all races have some great stuff in the history.
Then again, I guess my love of history and folklore make me more likely to like my ancestry.
These ’self haters’ seem to look around at a modern mainstream culture they hate and treat it as inherent to the race.
I look at my white ancestors and see the lore of the Tuatha De Dannan, I look at my African ancestry and think of Anansi.
People need to realize none of the races can be defined merely in modern terms.
I realize I’m babbling (It’s late) so I’m going to stop typing now
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 12:31 am ¶
jen* wrote:
I got as far as the rebel flag. And I don’t think Jenna really hates black people. She sounds like a mixed girl who grew up around rednecks, and saw that brown is not valued there. I think she wants to have the status that whiteness affords in her community - which is understandable. It seems, though, that she hasn’t really had anyone to talk with about it that would help her figure out all the dynamics that have gone into her perceptions.
How much more could she (and all the girls) have benefited if Tyra had had them talk with therapists prior to and after the show - having a therapist on-hand during the show as well? When I see people like this, I want to get them help. After all, it’s not entirely illogical to want to be a member of the group that has the power.
It seems that the show sensationalized the girls’ views for shock value, but in reality, these girls were trying to reconcile who they are with the ‘rules’ of society that they’ve become familiar with. Sad.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 12:34 am ¶
Fatemeh wrote:
COSIGN with Jenna (#21).
Just…ugh.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 12:49 am ¶
Paz wrote:
I’ve been thinking about that “Latin is/not an ethnicity” and I guess the term Latino is akin to the term African? Denotes a geographic area, but can encompass a number of cultures…meh?
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 1:27 am ¶
BWBlowTheTrumpet! wrote:
I am black and Puerto Rican and I don’t deny my mother’s or my father’s side of the family.
I wrote a post about “On Being Black and Other” and there were many black women who tried to come up with all sorts of justifications about WHY black people can not embrace their father and their mother’s ancestry.
They were justifying the enforcement of the “one drop rule”.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 1:33 am ¶
Rose wrote:
This episode illustrates some prevalant realities of the structure of racial categorization in the US and how it impacts these women on a personal level. As other commentators have said — Tyra takes it over the top and ultimately takes away from the dialogue that could be occuring.
Either way, there’s a huge preoccupation in the US with placing people in the “black” or “white” category. Everyone on this show — and most Latinos; Italian, Spanish, Greek, or Jewish - Americans; people of Middle-Eastern descent — is a challenge to this systemic racial order.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 2:05 am ¶
geo wrote:
perhaps, i have too much apathy towards the third segment. but why are folks being SOOOO irked about what other people presume to be their ethnicity, particuarly when they have the typical phenotypes of that ethnicity. i can see being slightly irritated that folks do not ask before hand, but to be mad to this degree seems highly irrational to me. why isn’t it sufficent to say “no, i’m not (inert assumed ethnicity). i’m (accurate ethnicity)” and move on?
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 2:06 am ¶
Jasmine wrote:
I couldn’t even watch Jenna…she irked me. I really don’t like Tyra or her show (she’s just so *extra*) but this was an interesting (though well-worn) subject. I feel like she’s all about the shock factor…and not much more than that.
I’m a 19-year-old black girl, and my mother always tells me that I look “other” (her words). I never believed her, and still can’t believe when other people come up and ask me if I’m mixed (the other day, a classmate asked if I was “part Chinese”). And they seem disappointed when I tell them what I really am - mostly black, with some German and Cherokee thrown in! I honestly don’t think I look too different from any other black girl I go to school with, and I see a black girl in the mirror no matter my complexion or hair texture…though other people seem to think differently.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 2:10 am ¶
Ishtar wrote:
@ Leigh-Anne
You wrote:
“After all, everyone knows, coloured people are uneducated drunks who do nothing but sit on street corners and make babies. They’re gangsters and prostitutes…”
I know exactly what you mean! And if we;re not gangsters and prostitutes we’re flower sellers, farm workers or fishermen.
Not that there’s anything wrong with the above-mentioned professions (except for the gangsters) but I’m so sick and tired of the same tired Coloured stereotypes. I rarely find positive depictions of Coloureds in our local media. What about our thriving middle class? What about the many, many educated, hardworking and law-abiding Coloureds?
I don’t know about you but I’m also really tired of how others go on about how “Coloureds are so funny!” like we’re a bunch of minstrels there only for their pleasure. I could go on and on about this but I think I’ve already pushed my blood pressure too high.
Like you, I am a Coloured South African woman but in my case I’m often mistaken for being Indian. I am so sick of being asked “so what are you?”. Sometimes people seem almost offended when I tell them I’m Coloured - “But you look Indian!”. And when they hear I do have Indian ancestry I’m sometimes asked why I don’t call myself Indian (asked with an incredulous look). Huh? Well, because I also have African and European ancestry and I happen to put equal value on my entire ethnic and racial heritage, not just one aspect.
It’s good to hear from a fellow South African Leigh-Anne…hopefully we can exchange thoughts again some time.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 2:46 am ¶
Medusa wrote:
@ Julienne: ME F*CKING TOO!!!! That’s a question that drove me NUTS when I lived in America, because when people asked each other that question, and would answer with “I’m ________” I’d be like, “Nooooo your nationality is American. Your ethnic background is __________________. ” Interesting, too since people would actually ARGUE with me and say that my nationality was African. I seriously had to point out to human beings that there is no nation called Africa, my nationality is GHANAIAN.
I’ve always been super annoyed by Tyra Banks, but I do appreciate her honesty because she has spoken before about why she wears weaves, because she has her own issues she needs to come to terms with about her racial identity. I do think she sometimes sheds light to issues a lot of time that need more exposure. I sort of wish she had also asked a few men about their experiences with race as well.
When she made that comment about how a Chinese person should feel more kinship towards a Korean than she should, that made me want to headdesk. Seriously, that one comment pretty much negated eveything I think she was trying to accomplish with this show.
To those who think Jenna was joking, do you think someone who didn’t really espouse those beliefs would be able to go on TV and say that stuff without vomiting? I mean, if you don’t really think that, i don’t think you’d want anyone to think that you do.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 6:20 am ¶
Gregory A. Butler wrote:
atlasien
I think you might be right.
I happen to be a myspace friend of one of the women on that show, Sun Karma.
Sun is in fact an ex-stripper turned BDSM fetish model - she also has a column that periodically appears in the European edition of Hustler Magazine.
She repeatedly plugged her appearance on this episode of Tyra on her myspace page and her myspace blog in the weeks before it aired.
She is also in fact biracial, Sun is half African American half South Asian.
Based on statements she’s made in her blogs and in interviews she’s done in the fetish community press, she has a VERY negative view of her Black ancestry, and of African Americans in general - she’s far more identified with her father’s South Asian heritage.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 7:51 am ¶
Gothic Guera wrote:
@Angel H If you see my other comments I CANNOT proofread. ( I’m also guilty of the double post hehehehe)
As mush I hate to admit it I can can ALMOST relate to Mercedes, I also get mistaken for Spanish or Italian. Sometimes even Asian, But now I’m just amused by it and even curious why, not like before when I was just confused.
I went thourgh I phase where I wanted to deny my Mexican Heritage and claim to Argentinean or Chilean. I even started try g to sound like an Argentinean. Funny thing I when ever I got to Mexico, I treated with the up most respect and almost feel I belong. But I get angry when people try to talk to me in English. Inserting, the kids who claim people like me are not Mexican (or insert your own race/ethnicity) when ever they go to their Places where one of their parents c family came from (like China, Mexico, etc) they get called American and then their told they are not truly ——.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 11:33 am ¶
Jess wrote:
@Medusa–
the reason I don’t buy this stuff from these women is that they are paid to be on the show. Jerry Springer used to shell out something like $10,000 back int he 80s. It’s a remarkably cheap way to put together a talk show — for basically $50K per episode you could get ratings. (To put it in perspective, that’s 1/5 of what a secondary character actor made on Buffy the Vampire Slayer).
So, yeah, I could say a lot of stuff without vomiting if you paid me enough. Pay me that much and I’ll tell everybody I was raised by aliens and probed with a radio control device. For $25K I’ll tell ‘em I’m a racist skinhead, and for $50K I’ll tell ‘em my dad is a Marxist revolutionary who roasts puppies. We all have our price :-).
More seriously, before you say “I have principles” think really hard about what you’d do if someone offered you five figures to make a fool of yourself for an hour that most people will forget. You might need the money, you know?
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 12:05 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“She sounds like a mixed girl who grew up around rednecks, and saw that brown is not valued there. I think she wants to have the status that whiteness affords in her community - which is understandable. It seems, though, that she hasn’t really had anyone to talk with about it that would help her figure out all the dynamics that have gone into her perceptions.”
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s called transference… instead of becoming upset with the culture for not accepting her as one of them, she chooses to blame blacks for ruining her opportunites and being so damn hateable. I’m sure there are relatively few where she lives, so they make a convenient scapegoat, she doesn’t have to go against what may be fairly widespread consensus, and she can pretend that when negative things are said about blacks, they’re referencing “those other black ppl, the 99.8% that suck and whom I unfortunately but understandably could be confused with.” Many assimilated black people also come to a crossroads where we discover that acceptance by mainstream society is not unconditional and liberally peppered with tiny indignities… I suspect that my father met that “imaginary wall” earlier in his life when it was a lot thicker, it broke his heart, and he went to the opposite side of the spectrum from Jenna. Her explanation sounded more insightful than I expected — but then Tyra cut to the commercials. That being said, my judge-o-meter ’bout peaked when she was talking about proudly running around with the rebel flag @ the fair — perhaps she was literally “going the extra mile” for approval? I don’t think its proponents would agree with her about it being “meaningless,” either… but to her, it may just be a means to an end.
Why I don’t watch this show…in one sentence.
Tyra: “Explain to our audience what a rebel flag is…”
“The next segment presented three women who are often mistaken for being biracial - though they are all African-American by birthright. All three women felt anger at having their racial identity overwritten in the eyes of others since they did not phenotypically conform to the standard idea of ‘blackness.’”
The show could’ve handled the subject better — I know, mad understatement — but this is a subject that I’ve always been intrigued by and wanted to know more about… people who “claim” a racial background that is at odds with an appearance, that like Jenna’s and the third woman in the segment, would not be seen as ambiguous by most. In the black community, we’re somewhat used to white/mestizo/M.E./Desi-appearing people identifying as black, but what about other groups where it may be largely unacceptable, like in Jenna’s case?
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶
Emmeaki wrote:
It was interesting that the girl at the end of the segment identified herself as “Middle Eastern” without specifying her nationality. Saying that she’s Middle Eastern is like saying that someone is African, or Latino–these are large geographical areas with lots of different nations and cultures.
I think that lumping yourself together with other people from the same geographical region further perpetuates the stereotype that all [insert ethnicity here] are all the same.
In any case, I feel sorry her and anyone that is treated poorly because of their race/ethnicity/nationality. It’s fucked up that she had to dye her hair, not wear hijab, etc. in order to be more excepted.
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 5:55 pm ¶
D. wrote:
I actually think Tyra made a very good observation in that race in America is most often considered within a black-white context, and racism as it affects Asians and Latinos often gets ignored or pushed to the side.
Also, I found it very interesting that when the Korean American guest was describing the racist, anti-Chinese insults that were lobbed against her, there seemed to be a lot of LAUGHTER among the audience. Whereas when anti-black, anti-white, anti-Latino and anti-Middle Eastern racism was described, there were audible gasps and “boos.”
What makes anti-Asian racism different? Because many non-Asian Americans just don’t respect or take Asians seriously, they are still a favorite punching bag, the racism they face doesn’t matter the way racism against other groups matter.
You see that in the media pretty well– you can have Tyler Perry’s Medea making a joke about Vera Wang/Asian women doing nails, and you can have Bruce Willis in “Live Free or Die Hard” call Maggie Q. an “Asian bitch”, and you can have Rob Schneider in yellow-face mixing up his l’s and r’s in “I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry.” No one gives a crap, it’s” funny”!
It reminds me of the anecdote I came across in which a classroom of white high school students were assigned mutil-cultural literature. When discussing these assignments, the students showed understanding towards literature that described feelings of oppression and racism that black and Latino writers described.
But in regards to race-related literature written by Asian Americans, they weren’t only confused, they were “angry.” As if it was not only confusing that Asians felt they experienced racism, but somehow OFFENSIVE that they would feel this way.
There’s a big problem with the way Asians are perceived in America. They have not made the headway other ethnic groups in this country have. They are still “the other.”
Posted 27 Nov 2008 at 6:39 pm ¶
Hokayshenao wrote:
One can find out that a person appreciates a variety of subjects when they can comfortably identify themselves. I feel a tremendous amount of pressure release when I tell people I am caucasian even though I have a dark complexion. Cablansian has been a great idenifying word for tigerwoods.
Posted 28 Nov 2008 at 12:04 am ¶
sfsinger wrote:
Tyra is lacking a deeper understanding of numerous issues but she does try. Now she also irritates me to no end but I remind myself she was a model in a cuthroat yet superficial industry and hasn’t attended college. If she went back to school or developed more critical thinking skills she’d be a better host. If the producers were also more thought-provoking the show would be more poignant. I’ve noticed the show has taken on not just a Maury tinge but a Ricki Lake tinge especially with them canvassing guests. She does ok with the celebs it’s just when she delves deeper that the weaknesses of the show comes out. I wrote a post about her latest show as well. http://snipr.com/6tnip
Posted 28 Nov 2008 at 6:09 am ¶
evilbunnytoo wrote:
re “Hispanics are just an ethnicity”
There’s a history in the U.S. of Mexican Americans being considered legally white but socially non-white - thus the designation of “other white.”
U.S. court cases show that for the purpose of citizenship, Mexican descent persons in the U.S. were considered to be “legally white” due to the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which conferred citizenship on all former Mexican citizens in the southwestern territories acquired from Mexico. At the time citizens could only be black or white, M.A.s were not black, therefor, even though they were technically “not white” due to their color and native american heritage (yes, at some point, a reservation type scheme was briefly considered) they were ruled to be “other whites.”
De facto, M.A.’s and other “colored” hispanics (such as PRs) were segregated, U.S. citizens were deported, subject to miscegenation laws, denied property and voting rights at times, and denied the rights of full citizenship until the civil rights act of 1965.
Because of this, “Hispanic” as a category is problematic in the U.S. Yes, on the census it is technically an ethnicity, yet socially, it is treated as a racially category (Mexican American is not considered a “white” category in many people’s minds).
Furthermore, many “hispanics” do not consider themselves white. I believe when looking at the census, about half of all Mexican Americans choose the category “some other race.”
It is a common research phenomenon that if you give many Mexican Americans a survey in which they have to fill out their race, they list Mexican, Chicano, or some variant as their racial designation (often checking “other” and filling in their subgroup). I believe that the Portes and Rumbraunt survey of “hispanics” in the U.S. showed a similar preference for other subgroups.
As a Mexican American, I do this as well (check the “other race” box and put in Mexican American) because
1. it reflects the reality of my heritage - being an amalgamation of native american and white, and I have been raised with distinct cultural practices which are derived from native american and spanish roots, and
2. it reflects my social reality. I am not/ have not been considered white by others. Particularly growing up in a primarily white county, it was made clear to me I was “other” due to my dark skin color and ethnic last name.
Posted 28 Nov 2008 at 7:13 am ¶
Jess wrote:
@D.–
I’d guess that some of the dynamic you describe is a class issue. While economic status differs widely between nationalities, the largest and most visible Asians (and for anyone reading this from Britain, South Africa or Australia that excludes people from the Indian subcontinent) are Chinese, Korean or Japanese. Remember, outside of New York, LA, or a few other really big cities most people have never met a Laotian and wouldn’t know what that is. (I think a lot of people who write here have a bit of bias in that respect — we tend to forget that the world doesn’t end at the city limits of our favorite hip urban center).
The fact is that those three groups are pretty well mainstreamed in an economic sense. This has mostly to do with self-selection — in recent decades the people that would come to the US from Japan aren’t gong to be unskilled or semi-skilled workers — when was the last time you heard of someone immigrating from Japan for purely economic reasons? (This is the same dynamic for immigrants from France, Iceland or other developed countries). Koreans are in a similar position, in that despite the stereotypical Korean grocery/laundry most Korean workers who come here have college degrees already. The same is true of Chinese people who come over (the census has some interesting data on this, which is where I am getting it).
It isn’t hard to see why this would happen, since getting to the US from Asia costs a lot and day-laborers usually aren’t going to be able to make the trip in the first place.
What does all this mean? Well, if most of the Asians you see are reasonably well-off, for people unfamiliar with their daily lives it’s going to seem kind’a nuts to be talking about racism when all the other stuff looks okay, you know? You have a nice house or nice apartment, the kids are on their way to college or are (in the case of a lot of Japanese kids especially) basically Americans in culture, language and outlook. So many white folks will ask, what’s the problem?
Now, we can crow around here about ignorance of history and other people’s experience all we want, but bear in mind that people make decisions based on day-to-day experience a lot of the time. It ain’t fair. But it’s life. Most reasonably conscious people can see oppression of black men in jail and with the poverty in many black neighborhoods. If black people were stereotypically professionals like computer scientists and dentists then you might get the same reaction.
No, it’s not fair and it’s wrong. But if people were rational this site wouldn’t exist.
Posted 28 Nov 2008 at 9:39 am ¶
Kavita wrote:
My father is Indian and my mother is white; I see myself as Indian. Or, more generally, a woman of color–a global brown, as it were. It’s not that I deny my mother at all. I am closer to my father’s family, but I love and spend time with my mother’’s side as well. Its just that in my experience, there is no such thing as “half-white.” Its like Project Runway–you’re either in, or you’re out. Whiteness is a category of exclusion, in my opinion. Its defined by what its not–and its not any shade of brown! I know not everybody with similar racial backgrounds sees it the same, and that’s fine. But I just don’t think identifying strongly as a woman of color means I am denying anything. That’s how I’ve always felt about my identity, and that’s how I’ve always been perceived. In my experience, people of color have been more open and inclusive of diversity within their ranks than white people have. I think its funny when white people are quick to point out that Obama is mixed. Of course he is, and he’s Black. The two are not mutually exclusive. IMHO.
Posted 28 Nov 2008 at 11:24 am ¶
RChoudh wrote:
I remember other talk shows tackling this issue in the past. There was one show (I forgot its name) that had on a young biracial woman (half-black/half-white) who tried very hard to pass herself off as white so that she could avoid having to acknowledge her black side. She also looked down upon her black side, which she said in front of her father who was part of the panel. It obviously hurt him that she was saying these things in front of him and acknowledging that she wasn’t teaching her children whose father was white, about their black heritage. At the end of the show, they had the daughter and father embrace because after such a loaded issue they had to have a feel good segment in the end. I don’t remember if they offered the woman therapy in order for her to work out her issues with blackness, which she would obviously need to undergo.
Posted 28 Nov 2008 at 12:19 pm ¶
Lxy wrote:
What makes anti-Asian racism different? Because many non-Asian Americans just don’t respect or take Asians seriously, they are still a favorite punching bag, the racism they face doesn’t matter the way racism against other groups matter.
This is a good point. One of the primary reasons why Anti-Asian racism in the USA is more acceptable is because of power–or lack thereof.
Asian Americans lack power compared to other minorities in the USA and hence are perceived by Whites (and others) as easy prey to attack without fear of retribution.
It is decidely not because Asian Americans have assimilated into the economic mainstream and are so well off. This argument is just a thinly disguised version of the Model Minority propaganda meme that White America loves to peddle.
A similar dynamic is also true with respect to Arabs in America where anti-Arab racism is more accepted and indeed normalized as a part of everyday life–particularly since the USA launched its War of Terror.
In America, power–not justice–is what counts and determines who is respected and who is not.
Posted 29 Nov 2008 at 1:04 am ¶
Medusa wrote:
@ Jess:
Aaah, okay. I had absolutely no idea people were paid to appear on talk shows. That sure explains a whole ot.
Posted 29 Nov 2008 at 6:13 am ¶
Marie wrote:
@Kavita
I so agree. I am half-black American and half-white Swedish and think of myself as mixed AND black. That’s just the reality of the experience.
Whiteness is very exclusive. Maybe it’ll change in 100 years but that’s just the way it is today. It used to hurt me when I was younger but I honestly see it as their loss now. Personal issues always play into this though - I’m closer to my mother’s family too.
What still bothers me though is that although I am seen as mixed/black, some white people can assume that I don’t identify as black or that I am somehow striving to be white and get surprised when they become aware of the fact that I care about global brown issues.
Maybe white people do identify with me more than I am aware of??? Perhaps the people that express this surprise equate lighter skin with not identifying with darker-skinned people? Could be since that’s what they do.
One last thing: As has maybe become clear, I have lighter skin. I also have a very large, thick curly afro hair. I sometimes meet white people that tell me they wouldn’t be able to see I was of African descent if it wasn’t for my hair. For some people it’s just an observation but for other people I can tell they kind of wonder why I would voluntarily walk around with such hair. This particular thing really only happens to me in Europe - the other thing happens in the US and here. It’s just insulting to me that there’s this expectation that I should be striving toward more whiteness because I guess I’m seen as “so close”? But hey I guess that’s just the nature of whiteness as a social construct, isn’t it? There’s a lot of status in it and I probably look crazy for not trying to cash in! Maybe that’s an indication of progress though, I don’t know!
Re.: Tyra. I think she’s alright. The conversation here was much more interesting though - thanks!
Posted 29 Nov 2008 at 9:51 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:
D. and Jess-
I went to a book signing for Lora Jo Foo’s memoir (? the book is autobiographical). She is an activist, scholar, and author of Asian American Women: Issues, Concerns, and Responsive Human and Civil Rights. She discussed her life as the child of a sweatshop worker, and having 6 or 7 siblings. I only saw one other person in the crowd who seemed to relate to growing up in subsidized housing and helping her mother with the sewing. This particular audience member nodded vigorously when the author described her dad raiding her savings account. The author said that generally, Asian-American memoirs are about people who are from middle-class or wealthier backgrounds. So, even a person interested in reading about the varied Asian-American experience could leave with a lopsided view.
Also, poor Asian-Americans are often viewed as people with jobs, whether in a restaurant, sweatshop, driving a cab, etc., rather than homeless and begging on the street. At my law school, some students would make racist statements about Asian-Americans and nobody would say a thing, and this was at a black school. When I would call a friend on it, he would say it was ok b/c according to genetic testing, he’s part Chinese. However, he identifies mostly w/ his mothers First Nations side.
Posted 29 Nov 2008 at 12:30 pm ¶
DJ Black Adam wrote:
Wow, alot of comments on this one. It just goes to show that there is more than enough hate of others and self hate to keep the fire burning…it really saddened me to see this.
Posted 29 Nov 2008 at 1:56 pm ¶
Jess wrote:
@lunanoire —
right on. That’s exactly the dynamic I was talking about.
Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 12:26 am ¶
Paz wrote:
Jess: I know someone who was a guest on the Tyra show and she wasn’t paid. The show was about eating disorders, and her therapist is a well-respected eating disorder specialist, the producers contacted her, and she referred my friend to the show.
Jerry Springer is very much obviously sensationalism so it makes sense that the guests are paid, but how do you know that every guest on daytime talk shows are paid? When Queen Latifah had her show, she said that during the commercial breaks, she’d overhear guests talk amongst themselves, how some would pretend to have x problem just to get a free trip. (She’d edit their segment out).
Kavita: Co-sign!
Sfsinger: Although I have learned much about race taking different classes in college, I disagree with your statement that Tyra’s lack of a college education is a reason behind her lack of understanding of race relations. Life experience, traveling and meeting different people are powerful, impactful ways to learn. Obviously, they are distinct ways of learning, but there are many deeply insightful people who lack a formal education.
Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 4:46 am ¶
Kimberly wrote:
Um, Ron…you do realize that Beyonce and Tyra aren’t bi-racial right?
Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 6:17 am ¶
Kimberly wrote:
Sorry, I meant Rob
Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 6:17 am ¶
Jess wrote:
Paz — I’m sure there are talk shows that don’t pay people to be on, besides the trip (which in itself can be a big inducement — heck, if someone offered me a free trip to LA in winter for a day or two, you can’t tell me I wouldn’t kick it by the hotel pool, if only for a day).
But the practice is widespread enough that I have to assume people are paid to be on there unless proven otherwise. You can’t always pretend to have whatever problem to get on the show, but the fact-checking record of talk shows across the board is so poor that I want a written statement from the producers and I would want to ask every guest at the very beginning how much they got to be on there.
Does Tyra pay her guests? You’re right, I don’t know for sure. But I would assume the answer is yes until she tells us different. If she is willing to get up and say “the only thing these people got to be here was a plane/bus ticket and a hotel room” then I’ll believe it. I don’t think it’s an accident that the payment policies of most of these shows is opaque to say the least.
Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 2:56 pm ¶
Kud wrote:
Hi
This is my first time commenting and I’ve been reading this website for a while now. As a Pakistani-American, I have a very strong identity rooted in being a person of color, and I love the content on this website.
Anyways, in response to this segment, I do agree that it had a very maury-esque sensationalism of the various struggles all these women face with defining identity and using race, a very fluid concept to do so.
One of my qualms with this segment is how Tyra didn’t ask Meriam to define middle-eastern. I think that is another “bracket” concept that is used too much like Latino, to group people from various regions that are nothing alike, beyond the concept of their Muslim rooting. Did she mean Middle Eastern like Saudi, Egyptian, Turkish, Afghani, Pakistani?? As a Pakistani, I get frustrated when people assume I’m either Indian or “middle eastern”-whatever that means-I wish Tyra had asked this girl to name a country because I truly believe that the term Middle Eastern perpetuates the stereotyping and bracketing of people so that we can remain ignorant about differences between people from various countries. I’m still annoyed that she defined her nationality or ethnicity as Middle Eastern…
Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 4:44 pm ¶
Annie wrote:
I found this discussion extremely interesting. I am a white Canadian fat girl and found the comments from some of the guests that they wish they were white or that they wish they were black interesting; I have often said I wish I was multiracial. I believe that the world was meant to be as one, someday, and when you mix all that beautiful dna together, you have a world full of beautiful, beautiful people. Maybe I’m a little naive, but that is the way I see of what could be.
Posted 01 Dec 2008 at 1:29 pm ¶
weberly wrote:
I am a twenty-eight year old bi-racial woman. I have lived most of my life in Kentucky (yeah it has been just as much fun as it sounds) I have lived in places where I was the only person of color . I have dealt with an amazing amount of racism from BOTH sides because I seem to never be enough of something, I have never held one side over another and out of pure stubbornness have ALWAYS identified myself as other , every since I noticed the difference between myself and my family which was all white. I have endured racism in public, in school, and even at home, I can’t honestly say that it has been an easy life with people literally taking bets on what I am . It is pretty bad when the person asking is actually what they are asking about.
I am a much happier person though now that I have come to the realization that the only thing that I can ever be is me . I will never live up completely to expectations especially when stereotypes are involved. I can’t change the minds of people who are dead set in their belief system , and I am not going to try I would only be seen as ” one in a million” or some other nonsense which is totally degrading anyway. , I am now, after about 23 years of confusion proud to be beige .
Posted 01 Dec 2008 at 6:31 pm ¶
firstofall wrote:
i find it interesting in all of this that self-identity in many of these cases tended to be functional for social acceptance or status for the people in the show. It sparked in my mind the case of Leo Felton, the black/white mixed neo-nazi felon who attempted suicide after a horrible life in and out of prison. Here is a segment from a letter he wrote after he recovered from his attempt, with one word i assume is what he meant in (parentheses).
From http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=150
“By a disastrous and completely unforeseeable turn of events, I have been splashed all over newspapers and televisions in a major city, with my biology and my politics (or the government’s contorted version thereof) at the forefront of the whole thing. I have been publicly vilified and had my one ’skeleton,’ namely my racial origin, put on display in the worst imaginable way, alienating me from the only community I’ve known since I was (young/imprisoned?) and undermining the few meaningful relationships I had with other people. This latter element [the ’skeleton’] is in fact the reason I opened my jugular veins last Saturday night.”
in this light, i think that racial identity in the cases of the women on the tyra show tend to be a strategy (albeit semi-conscious in some situations) to ensure social survival in a community of “others”. In Leo’s case, in the extremely racialized prison system, social identity was racial identity, and racial identity was depended upon for survival.
As sad as it may be, I think these cases are evidence of that race and racism is subjective and arbitrary as a social construction that is by no means as uniform in practice and ideology as Tyra seemed to imply. There is global racism, local racism, intra-ethnic racism, intra-national racism, etcetera. I think similar to the Down Low phenomenon in people who engage in homosexual acts in the black community (and others) is a similar phenomenon: that white gays can come out of the closet because there is an established community with an established identity to be a part of, but black gays cannot necessarily do the same because there isn’t an established community with an established identity that is “ghettoized” like the american white gay community. So, in order to remain a part of the black community in certain places, gay blacks have to be heterosexuals who sometimes engage in homosexual behaviors instead of being “Gay”, because there is no other community to be a part of in some cases, and there
is no established identity that they can claim to both remain in their family’s community while being openly gay. I know that homosexual politics and issues are in no way the same as racial politics or issues, but in the general case of identities and communities, there is a related dynamic occuring in the Down Low phenomenon and the denial of certain racial heritage in these mixed women.
I was just watching “Wonders of the African World” by Henry Louis Gates Jr. (http://www.pbs.org/wonders/) and saw how on the Swahili Coast, many people who would be considered “black” in new york self-identify as arab and make huge efforts to connect their geneologies to the prophet Muhammed as a mark of high social standing as opposed to the “indigenous” “black” africans. It is a pertinent example, I think, and although there are HUGE criticisms of the Gates’ approach and his work by a LOT of people in the academic community, I think that specific example shows how common american concepts of race (black/white/”asian”/arab/latino/etc.) do not always apply everywhere in the world, as some others have said previously (i think in the discussion of korean/japanese immigrants above).
Too bad Tyra doesn’t read this blog
Posted 03 Dec 2008 at 7:54 pm ¶
Kathlene wrote:
Annie, I think that you are naive. The world is ALREADY filled with beautiful, beautiful people of all shades, statures, cultures and identities.
Posted 07 Dec 2008 at 1:16 pm ¶
francesca wrote:
however, what I don’t understand is whenever any one of the guests made negative comments about black or latina women, there was lots of noise and dissing from the audience however when one of the women was explaining how she hated white people there was silence, as if everyone in the audience agreed. what is that? and also the comment about how white people have no culture and no family bonds but that is a lie. Maybe it seems that there are no recent white immigrants but that’s not true. I am white. I am blonde with blue eyes but I am Italian. I was born there, I have my culture, I have my family and for them to say that white people have no culture and no family bonds is ridiculous. When I lived in Italy, I never thought about my colour, and I still think of myself as Italian, however when I moved to Canada in my teens about 10 years ago I became white and people would make judgements about myself and my family because of my lighter skin.
When people would come over and hear me speaking to my parents in Italian or watching Italian tv they’d get so confused and when they realized that I was an immigrant, some would distance themselves.
However there were others who only accepted me when they saw where I lived, my family’s financial situation and the fact that I had immigrated. I’ve had people tell me to go back to my country but I am glad that I did not suffer through the times when my great-grandfather had moved to Canada for a couple of years and that I do not face the level of discrimination that he faced as it was probably the to the level that illegal Mexican immigrants face now.
Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 12:43 am ¶
Renee wrote:
@ geo, you wrote:
“but why are folks being SOOOO irked about what other people presume to be their ethnicity, particuarly when they have the typical phenotypes of that ethnicity. i can see being slightly irritated that folks do not ask before hand, but to be mad to this degree seems highly irrational to me. why isn’t it sufficent to say “no, i’m not (inert assumed ethnicity). i’m (accurate ethnicity)” and move on?”
As the product of a Filipina mother and a white Australian father I have landed an array of physical features that tend to trigger games of guess-that-chick’s-race with complete strangers.
It’s not so much the guesstimating my heritage that annoys me, but the fact that some people practically try to CORRECT ME on the topic of MY OWN RACE.
“You look more Italian / part Chinese / Columbian / Maltese / Jewish / Spanish / Egyptian / Gypsy / South African / Lebanese / Thai/ like our Argentinean friend Anna / this actress / that girl off Eurovision].
“You don’t look part-Asian / you’re so white / you’ve got a funny colour / you don’t look like your mum/ your eyes are too big to be Asian / Filipinos aren’t Asian.”
So sometimes people ask what my heritage is, then ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT accept my explanation (probably because I just shot their Gypsy-Argentinean-Romanian lovechild hypothesis down). That’s what annoys me,
Sometimes it’s hard to say, “I’m [this]” and move on, because the fact that people question/correct you on your own racial characteristics on a daily basis reinforces the fact that you don’t quite fit into any ‘box’ - you are constantly being told you are something else. At the very least it makes me uncomfortable with myself. And like any question/comment one is faced with repeatedly over a substantial amount of time, it gets annoying.
Posted 09 Apr 2009 at 1:31 am ¶
GianaZ wrote:
THE BELOW IS TAKEN FROM A GROUP POSTING ON FACEBOOK-”I’M NOT A ‘SISTUH’; I’M BIRACIAL.”
http://clutchmagonline.com/tag/tyra-banks/
I’m not a Tyra Banks talkshow host fan. Her way of speaking is very confrontational, aggressive, and subjective. She speaks to her guests forcing her opinion on the matter, vs. letting both them and herself be right…aside from that, she’s someone who’s admitted that she lightens her hair and has her hair straight because it builds confidence for herself. However, according to her, she’s only Black. I feel that if she was really Black and comfortable with that, she wouldn’t need to “Whiten” her appearance.
And this brings me to my next point. On her show, if you watch the above link, you’ll see women (including Tyra) who claim that they are only Black. Time and Time again, people keep claiming that they are Black when they obvisously have a mixed ancestry. The slaves that came to the US didn’t look like the Black people in the US today. They either got raped or mixed with Whites and Native Americans; those offspring mixed with other Black people, as Native Americans decreased in numbers and Whites had nothing to do with meshing cultures with Blacks. So the Blacks always got the mixed kids, who kept marrying in and mixing with other Blacks and mixed Blacks, which leads to today. We have all these obviously mixed people in America claiming to be only Black culturally and racially or not being ALLOWED by society to claim that they are mixed, especially when one of their parents is White.
It’s just so obvious what the truth is, and it’s so stupid that people can’t shift their thinking.
But for Tyra to get on someone’s case for claiming just one of their races to identify with, is hypocritical when she doens’t claim all the physical attributes that make her look non-White.
Posted 26 Jun 2009 at 7:48 pm ¶
GianaZ wrote:
ps…the race(s) that we are DO(ES) NOT define our culture; so perhaps a better talkshow topic is “Biracial people who only identify with one of their racial cultures” or “People who don’t practice their racially stereotyped culture.”
Posted 26 Jun 2009 at 7:51 pm ¶