Is there a Bechdel test for race?

by Latoya Peterson

Today, I talked a bit about Vicky Cristina Barcelona and introduced the concept of the Bedchel Test. Here’s the original comic the test came from:

So, after rejoicing over how brilliant the test is in its simplicity, I started wondering – could we adapt the Bechdel test for race? And if so, what would the end result be?

I am interested in your thoughts on this.

(Image Credit: “The Rule,” originally published in Dykes to Watch Out For by Alison Bechdel)

Share and Enjoy:

Trackbacks & Pings

Milk (with spoilers, maybe) « Quantum Femme on 17 Nov 2008 at 10:10 pm

[...] can tell a lot about a movie by who is left out I was recently reminded of the Bechdel Test by Racialicious: it says that a movie should have a) two female characters who b) talk to each [...]
The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency [Racialicious Review] at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 01 Apr 2009 at 11:38 am

[...] series also passes the Bechdel Test with flying colors. The women of the series are normally talking about the business or a case and [...]
On the Ladies’ No 1 Detective Agency, and the Bechdel Test « Modus dopens on 30 Apr 2009 at 12:20 pm

[...] This thread at Racialicious discusses the difficulty in converting the Bechdel Test for race/ethnicity. However, I’d suggest the following: [...]
The Bechdel Rule – Feminism in Movies « the m0vie blog on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:36 am

[...] have been all manner of spin-off rules suggested to cover the ethnicity of television shows, for example, but we’ll stick with the original here. Doubt is the most obvious example of a [...]

Comments

QQ wrote:

I would like to see more movies with Asians in the leading roles and they don’t do any martial arts and is set in modern times.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 12:43 pm ¶
Medea wrote:

Adapting rule 3 is hard–you could say: do the two people of color have an extended and interesting conversation in which neither one is reduced to a stereotype?

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 12:47 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

Nope, can’t be done. The existence of the sneaky colorblind variety of racism makes it too complicated to create a parallel test.

I’m a typical intersectionalist who thinks sexism is just as bad as racism, but there’s no “genderblind sexism” equivalent to colorblind racism.

Maybe I’m wrong… I’d be interested in hearing an argument otherwise.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 12:52 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Yeah, this is tough. I’ve been thinking on it for a few months now.

Roughly speaking, I could see:

1. Two people of color
2. Where one is the lead
3. And you actively see their family and friends

or

1. Two nonwhite characters
2. who interact with each other
3. for most of the movie.

(So, Harold and Kumar would pass that particular test, though it would fail the Bechdel test from the jump.)

Also, atlasien is right – there are so many different ways in which a movie can be racist.

1. Two asian americans (have we gotten to this point yet?)
2. In lead roles
3. Set in modern times (as QQ said)
4. without involving martial arts (also as QQ said)

or

1. Two nonwhites of different races
2. in lead roles
3. interacting with each other period.

(Hitch, Missippi Masala…I’m sure there are more, but hmm).

or

1. A romantic comedy
2. In which the nonwhite character
3. gets the girl/guy
4. and is not the sassy/stoic/solid best friend figure

Maybe we need a racial rubik’s cube or something…

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:00 pm ¶
Molly wrote:

The whole point of the Bechdel Test is that it’s just a guideline. A movie can fail it and not be particularly sexist; a movie can pass and be *incredibly* sexist. But it tends to be that you have a better shot with movies that pass.

So, using the same “it’s just an indicator” stance, I think it could absolutely be used for racism. I don’t know if I’d go with the simple “are there two people of color, do they talk to each other, about something other than whitey” translation; I think it would be safer as “are there two people of similar non-white racial backgrounds, do they talk to each other, about something other than whitey or what it’s like to be black/Latin@/Chinese/etc.”

Lots of movies have “a black guy and an Asian chick” or some such, and most of them are hella racist. But once you get up to more than one POC from a given “group,” there’s less chance it’s pure tokenism and more chance the movie’s actually trying.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:02 pm ¶
Miriam wrote:

NPR had a segment about this a while ago. They came up with these:

The Deggans Rule
(from Eric Deggans, The St. Petersburg Times)
1. At least two nonwhite characters in the main cast …
2. in a show that’s not about race.

The Morales Rule (from Natalie Morales, ABC Family’s The Middleman)
1. Nobody calls anybody Papi.
2. No dancing to salsa music.
3. No gratuitous Spanish.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
Jasmine wrote:

I love a challenge. Could a racial Bechdel test include parameters regarding authorship (non-White behind the camera talent — writer, director, producter) or are we strictly talking about what we see on film? I’m thinking of The Color Purple. And I’m assuming we’re talking about films out of Hollywood, as opposed to foreign films.

Also on my mind: Just Another Girl on The IRT, which came to mind when I was somewhat underwhelmed by “Juno” last year.

More later when I think about television.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:10 pm ¶
deathblossom wrote:

1. At least one nonwhite character that
2. Manages to speak in a non stereotypical manner about
3. something that isn’t immigration, racism, brokeass no good men, baby mama’s, and all the other things white writers throw in to make their characters “authentically” whatever race the person is supposed to be without
4. being regulated to comic relief and/or guru status.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:17 pm ¶
Cynthia wrote:

OK, here goes (this’ll probably never happen, though):

1. Must have at least to Asians in it who aren’t related AND speak English with some sort of non-foreign accent (e.g. British, Australian, Canadian, American, etc….)

2. Aren’t evangelical Christians

3. The younger generation isn’t rebellious in the Lane Kim kind of way

4. Must not be too “old country” (i.e. I don’t want to see another Big Fat Greek Wedding/Bend it like Beckham type movie)

5. Characters are solidly middle class (and grew up that way) – no grocery/convenience store owner parents, please (stereotypical jobs like doctors and accountants are okay)

6. SET IN THE WEST and in the 80s or later.

7. No martial arts (piano, string instruments and flute are okay)

8. Asian characters can’t be geeks (at least one should have a love of literature)

I know, too many rules!

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:32 pm ¶
RoslynHolcomb wrote:

Personally I’ve been applying a similar test to tv shows for a while. At least two non-white characters. Neither of whom is a ’sassy girlfriend’ or handmaiden to a white star. Goes without saying that I don’t watch much tv, huh?

The last movie I saw that passed this rule was Whale Rider. It was so refreshing to see a movie about Maori people that was full of *gasp* Maoris. No gratuitous white hero to be found. Amazing. I bought it based on that alone. No Navajo code talker movies starring Nicolas Cage for Pete’s sake!

Apparently, Danny Glover is struggling to finance a movie about Toussaint L’overture(sp)
because there are no ‘white heroes’ in the movie. It really does give me a freaking headache.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:35 pm ¶
deathblossom wrote:

And to add on to my original, they have to

5. also have a relevant role in plot progression without
6. that role being the one to carry the Idiot Ball.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 1:41 pm ¶
Wren wrote:

when I was little my mom’s had a rule that I couldn’t watch t.v shows unless they had at least two black people and were not being stereotyped…I barely ever watched t.v- when I did it was family matters and the Cosby show and that’s about it…

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶
F wrote:

I would like to see a movie where ethnic people aren’t the background or there to set an atmosphere or otherwise used as props, and if it is a movie in which a (usually white) person ‘finds’ themselves in a strange land, that that culture and society is treated with respect, not as an endless row of apparently amusing stereotypes.

I think for example The Darjeeling Limited would pass my test, because although it was about white people finding themselves in India, India was treated romantically but lovingly and the Indian characters in it did not appear one-dimensional. Lost in Translation wouldn’t, however, because it basically kept saying, ‘Japanese people are so weird’.

What I would really, dearly, very much love to see is a movie where the lead doesn’t have to be a certain race or ethnicity and therefore isn’t automatically assumed to be white, without it being ‘a movie about ethnic people’ or something. Where there just happen to be characters from all different backgrounds and races, who are given an identity more than just the colour of their skin/their ethnicity. Almost any movie I can think of – why are the leads white people? For example, the latest Coen brothers movie, why are they all white? It’s not racism, I’d just like to see an awareness that people of colour do not have to specifically play ‘people of colour’ designated roles.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶
brownstocking wrote:

wow, Wren, we didn’t even watch “Family Matters!” But I think my mom considered Erkel a “coon” or something.

I want to see all of the rules above implemented, though, Cynthia, I don’t think a film could survive your rules, LOL>

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 2:41 pm ¶
A.D. Nix wrote:

At this point, I’d settle for at least two non-white characters neither of whom is Magical or giving some kind of Oprah-esque guidance to a male lead.

Has anyone seen ‘Slumdog Millionaire’, btw? I saw it at a screening and my boyfriend’s (not aggressively racist but white hipster williamsburg-style “post-racially”offensive) friend pronounced it ‘The Most Racist Movie He’s Ever Seen.’ My reply was “This must be your first time at the movies.”

His primary reasoning was that it took place in the slums of India and was irreverent but there was nothing essentially “Indian” about it. I was at a loss. Just curious to see if anyone else had a similar take.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 3:29 pm ¶
Jamerican Muslimah wrote:

Can I see a movie where a large, Black woman is not ghetto, masculine or a mammy? Can she be a love interest without the fat jokes being made? Can the movie not mention her weight at all? *sigh*

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 3:44 pm ¶
Baiskeli wrote:

I’m currently netflixing Lost right now, and I just begun season 2 (so no spoilers everyone!). In the first season, I was irritated by the character of Rose, the middle aged African-American woman, because it seemed her role was a ‘mammy’, ’stoic’ role. Wow, in season 2, when they introduced her husband, and you realize that he is white I was suddenly forced to confront my assumption that her husband was black (and the ironic thing is that I’m black and my wife is white so you’d think I’d know better).

I would say that it passed the Bechdel test for interracial relationships

1: An interracial couple
2: Who don’t seem to be a novelty
3: Who seem to have an actual connection
4: And where the relationship does not fall into the tragic mulatto role or does not get exoticised

I just watched “Save the Last Dance” and “Step it up” both on the same night, they both failed miserably. I now have a 2UP credit for movies that I can watch that my wife can not complain about since she did pick the 2 clunkers above

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 3:59 pm ¶
em wrote:

Comment no. 7, made by Jasmine, brings up an interesting point: what about that behind the scenes creative development?

i think that one of the reasons we see such a narrow view of human experience in mainstream movies, tv, etc. is because that view is framed by the experiences and assumptions of a narrow segment of the population. i’m sure that some of the exploitation of racial, sexist, cultural stereotypes is intentional, but i also think that so much of it is because that’s how the people responsible for the content actually think life is.

so while our immediate focus may fall on the characters, i think that ultimately my gaze has focused in on the people creating, defining, and casting those characters.

after thinking about this a bit while i’ve been writing my response, i don’t see (un)intentionally racist entertainment changing much without an increasingly diverse behind the scenes management and creative community.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 4:14 pm ¶
lakergrrl wrote:

@ Baiskeli

You had to watch Save the Last Dance annnd Step Up on the same night !?!? You poor, poor thing!

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 4:21 pm ¶
Stacey wrote:

Even movies where the cast is all black or all Chinese or all Latino, etc etc – are not worth viewing. There’s no way to make a test for race. It would be nice to have a bunch of different races interacting on screen but when that happens the movie is usually about race and usually depicts a certain race in a biased way or tries to redeem white people.

People praise movies like Crash -saying it gave us such an intricate understanding of race relations but it was pure b.s.

So just watch whatever you want and try to enjoy your movie going experience.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 4:28 pm ¶
A.D. Nix wrote:

@ A.D. Nix – Replace “male” lead with “white” lead.

See what my brain did? That was bad.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 4:31 pm ¶
Baiskeli wrote:

@lakergrrl

Yes. My wife owes me.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 4:32 pm ¶
Brigitte wrote:

I want a non-biographical movie drama set in present day or beyond starring a Black woman (with deep brown skin) in the lead role. She can have a love interest but her life can’t revolve around him/her. Race can’t be the focus of the movie but the writer shouldn’t ignore the fact that she is black either.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 4:43 pm ¶
Marge Twain wrote:

I want to remind that the Bechdel rule is about a decent level of representation, period. It’s not about avoiding sexism. It also serves to wake people up, when they realize how simple the parameters are, yet how few and far between are the movies.

The brilliance of the rule is, when you have two women talking to each other, about something other than a man, they are driving the story instead of only existing as a corollary to men.

I’ve gotten to a point where I would rather watch something like Hitch, or Harold and Kumar, or Maid in Manhattan than one of the scores of movies where there’s one flat supportive girlfriend and she has to die or get kidnapped to galvanize the hero into action, or there’s one (almost always black) PoC and they’re a flatly written sassy friend or street criminal.

I think it could be as simple as: two PoC, talk to each other, about something other than a white person. Thus Maid in Manhattan would qualify. Even though it’s a Cinderella story and Jennifer Lopez and Wanda Sykes are maids, and Wanda Sykes is a sassy black maid, it’s still a rare representation that makes me sit up and feel a little less invisible.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 5:13 pm ¶
Javier wrote:

What about “Bad Boys”, with Will Smith and Martin Lawrence? Two non-stereotypical (relatively speaking) black men in leading roles. It was also a blockbuster.

On the other hand, a film like “Crash”, which purports to be ‘about’ race (and tries very hard to cover all the bases), espouses a problematic non-non-white view of racism. (It tries to show that every racial group is racist against some other group, that it all balances out in a great symmetrical equivalence. Everyone is just as guilty, and just as victimized.)

And what about Mel Gibson’s “Apocalypto”? It is unusual (for Hollywood) in featuring almost exclusively non-white characters – until the final scene, at least (where everything that happened turns out to have happened ‘for’ the white people. The whole plot turns out to have been some kind of mystical means for producing, in the final instant, a greeter for the Europeans).

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 5:14 pm ¶
Thea Lim wrote:

I definitely think that a rule for race should include something about a character of colour whose activities include something beyond their race…there’s nothing wrong with having a character of colour who corresponds to some cultural stereotype, as long as they also do things which totally doesn’t fit with the stereotype. Like Harold – though I couldn’t get into the H&K movies because of the sexism/homophobia.

@ Javier
Did you read this Znet article about Apocalypto: http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/2445

I feel like I could never watch the movie after reading about how disgustingly the history was manipulated.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 5:21 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

there’s no “genderblind sexism” equivalent to colorblind racism

Sarah Palin?

Jasmine~thank you for bringing IRT up THAT was indie film. Remember Girls Town?

Baiskeli ~Yes. My wife owes me. Looks like she was paying you back

I would like to see a film when non-whites are being human and not portraying non-whiteness for the sake of educating whites.

No eternal victims of: the cops, first death scene, sass, oppressive men, the old country, “culture”, magic realism.

Ditto on being a motherly bosom (can’t spell mammary without mammy) or magical negro.

***
We need to help Danny Glover. We don’t want anyone else telling our stories. If you look at the principals between cinematic minstrel shows, you will see that the creative [snort] and financial forces are white. He/She who has the gold makes the rules.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 5:31 pm ¶
Fred wrote:

Now who can forget Executive Decision. While there was a White Male lead, Kurt Russell. The commando team supporting him was made up of Joe Morgan, John Leguizamo, and BD Wong (who is not listed in the Wiki site). It is very rare in an action flick that the POC of characters don’t get killed off. In fact they kill off Steven Segal’s character in the first 10 minutes (my kind of movie). Now there are other issues with the movie, crazy Arabs making a plane into a chemical weapon to destroy the East Coast, but it was quite refreshing to see a movie where the POC guys don’t die.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 5:48 pm ¶
Ike wrote:

Four words: Akira’s Hip Hop Shop.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 6:54 pm ¶
MayDarling wrote:

Not that this movie applies to any of the rules, but I have to say that this was super refreshing -

In “Cloverfield” the one POC main character was the only one who managed to escape. Brought a smile to my face, it did.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 8:33 pm ¶
Bagelsan wrote:

I like Marge Twain’s idea: if we’re just flat-out fantasizing, sure, these mega-lists are awesome, but an equivalent to the Bechdel test would probably have a similarly limited scope.

I’m also wondering if this idea is a little bit altered by numbers. Like, would the goal be to equally represent (as with female characters, women being ~50% of the population) or to proportionally represent? (US-population-wise?)

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 8:37 pm ¶
Cynthia wrote:

9. I should also add that the characters should play at least one of the following sports:

- tennis
- golf
- field hockey
- lacrosse
- hockey (as in on the ice)

10. At least one likes non-chain, trendyish restaurants.

Basically, I want to see non-white characters who “act white.”

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 9:00 pm ¶
chi wrote:

@ Ike — agreed.

1. an (unlikely) interracial couple
2. with a connection rooted in commonality (i.e. love of music) and not focused on racism (yay…a love storyyyy )
3. and characters do not subscribe to any stereotypes

I’m trying to think of any movies that would pass the Bechdel test…nada. I just watched ‘The Visitor’ and with the exception of the white protagonist (i.e. the hero), I think it may have been close…maybe.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 10:07 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

This discussion reminded of a really groundbreaking moment in cinema.

Duane Jones in Night of the Living Dead (1968): “the first time a black actor was cast in a lead role of a major motion picture that did not specify the part had to be played by a black actor.”

If you’ve seen the movie, it’s a fascinating example of colorblind casting; it works, maybe because it’s easy to imagine that a massive brutal zombie attack is the kind of situation where race doesn’t matter that much.

Posted 12 Nov 2008 at 11:19 pm ¶
Asada wrote:

I saw pineapple express. With my friends because of a birthday party. Bad Idea.
I was actually embarrassed for the black characters and I wonder how my Asian friend felt watching that.

All the characters of color were stereotypes. The Lone Black Character was probably the saddest. At least he died near the end of the movie. The Asian characters were gangsters trafficking drugs into the USA and then they get killed. Bobby Lee ( of MadTV fame) gets a role far less than what he’s capable of.

I haven’t been to the movies in ages. In fact, I grew up not being allowed to watch movies ( religious /cultural reasons). When I saw that movie I was shocked, Drugs guns crime. Is this what we all glorify now?

Then again, It was another ” bro movie”…. I’m stuck watching older movies because they used to be about something. Real Human relationships. B-movies come off as too political these days. Sigh…..

IN other news,
I just realized Tom Cruise was in Interview with the Vampire. My favorite movie! He HAS done everything……

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 12:06 am ¶
Free wrote:

RE: Danny Glover – I wonder if he’s talked to Will Smith.

A kids movie

1. young black girl learna she’s a princess
2. her curly or nappy hair isn’t straightened – not considered ghetto in her kingdom
3. she is not being rescued from poverty or sexual abuse
4. not one person in her family is a drunk or on drugs
5. she is loved

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 12:15 am ¶
macon d wrote:

atlasien, have you seen Suture? A black actor plays a character who’s the brother of a character played by a white actor–and throughout the movie, none of the movie’s characters notice or mention their racial difference. It’s a pretty trippy example of colorblind casting. Though I guess it’s not that, since it’s more that the characters are colorblind–the movie’s makers sure weren’t.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 1:16 am ¶
jmtorres wrote:

Deggans and Morales?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2008/09/the_bechdel_rule_1.html#more

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 1:23 am ¶
chanita wrote:

@ Marge Twain

Hi! I agree with your post, except for the Maid in Manhattan thing.

Jennifer’s first LEADING role where she plays an ACTUAL Latina(after Selena), and she plays a friggin maid… So, she can be a successful Italian wedding planner, a successful u.s. marshall and whatever else, but as a Latina, she HAS to be a maid…sheesh. Just really irks me to the point where I feel all discombobulated =[

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 4:29 am ¶
Lea wrote:

Well, it’s really hard. A lot of the time when people discuss Bechdel’s law they talk about “technical passes” like a situation where a female protagonist asks directions of a passing, unnamed female extra (for example). I’m much more interested in the idea behind the law, of a relationship between two women on screen that is not part of a love triangle. I tend to use Wicked (the musical) as an example because, even though there is a love triangle between the female leads and the male romantic interest, the theme of the play is the friendship between two women.

It’s a lot harder with race, because you can’t point the finger to one big issue that encompasses what’s basically wrong with how POC are represented. When POC interact with each other, it’s usually either brief (like a “technical pass”) or else in a race-themed movie, like “Crash”, or otherwise in a setting that’s all about race relations.

Although I’m not a big Neil Gaiman fan, I’d say what he said about the Anansi Boys TV adaptation stands as a pretty good thumb rule: can you have a setting in which most of the characters are black, where it’s not about the fact that most of the characters are black? Alternatively, can you set a story in a “foreign” culture without making the lead character a white “normal” Western person, because that’s the only person your viewers are supposed to be able to identify with?

With action or science fiction movies it’s probably easier. What would happen if you made an SF or superhero movie in which the lead character is POC? Would the world explode?

Bleh. I’ve babbled again.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 4:58 am ¶
Synaka wrote:

For a moment I thought I was reading that towards racial profiling…

1:

Throw away the formula.

If possible at least attempting to make three dimensional individual characters – I know 3d characters are difficult – but it’s not that difficult to throw away the badly copied barbie doll, who might share some of the same experiences and might have some of its own, but yet is still just a barbie doll wearing a different dress, whether it’s male or female, reflective of one culture or many… it’s still often the same friggin’ barbie doll.

Or at least do away with the overused actors and use sock-puppets through the entire film, preferably argyle.

2:

The story can stand on its own without being regulated or butchered to an audience type.
i.e. … being a black movie, being a gay movie, being a chick flick… etc.

3:

NO TOKEN CHARACTERS…

If it’s supposedly taking place in a diverse location … that even the extras in the background should reflect this, and not represented by the stereotypes of racial costumes – looking like thugs, tourists (how many times have we seen asian tourists with cameras and child-like personalities), fresh off the boat or straight out of an ethnic/cultural ghetto, and cabbies.. yes stereotypes exist in real people, but I’d probably find the bigger plot twist in a movie that has dozens of them to have a cabbie that wasn’t pissed off and of a middle eastern or indian background.

No more white female or white teachers saving inner-city children, that are all latino and black. There’s been enough already… show somebody else.

No more overly victimized white (or any other) females or at the very least, not socially, culturally, morally, intellectually numb. (Bye Lifetime movies of the week!)

If there’s a multi-racial/multi-cultural relationship, queer or straight, that it’s not an exotic subpairing of a dog and a cat… that maybe the families actually don’t actually give a damn. And that the entire plot of the movie doesnt’ revolve around two opposing sides based on race or culture … that it’s just “oh”, okay, and moves on.

No female characters that are actually straight narrow men for gags with an underlining good-will message but yet overshadowed by the fact they’re really somewhere between being misogynistic (sometimes specifically against ethnic women more than women in general.) and homophobic.

Toss ups may be for a drag review or something relevant to one of the characters. But no more “Big Momma” type movies unless unless a ftm or mtf gets to beat the shit out of them at some point in the film. Or I’d even settle for the end of the “Big Momma” movies to end after killing Shirly Q.

if its a period piece: it’s reflective of the history without dressing up aspects for the better or worst,

that it’s factually representative of the history, the times and the people…

which sometimes it’s diverse and sometimes it isn’t. Okay, I can buy that just a little bit.

But if I see one more historical war movie where all the allied forces were white, at least the lead cast except for the one black guy that always dies before the movies’ end to show that black people are cool when they’re used as a human shield, that everybody else was on the opposing side… I’m gonna hurl.

if it’s a fantasy/sci-fi: that minorities represent something other than exotic aliens, machines, or the old stereotypes in a new future…

And if there’s another Star Trek film that they listen to something other than classical music, have uptight socially upper-class interests, and no black women with strange ethnic sounding names unless we’re actually driven to learn more of their characters’ background, culture, history or giant hats that also work as a portal to narnia or east l.a.

Children flix: That it becomes a bit more diversed, but maybe it does reflect a little more anomisity, some individuality rather than being transformed into “It’s a small world” or some feel good movie that teaches us about tolerance.

(and that Dakota Fanning dyes her hair for at least one film. She gives me nightmares.)

if it’s horror/suspense/thriller: all the white people, the goodie-goodies, and non-queers get killed first.

That if there’s an excuse for women to appear in a film that doesn’t explore their relationship, make note of their sexuality and calls for them to get freaky with it… in the company of a male,

then it’s more reflective of real situations outside of illustrating male dominance or stereotyped poly relationships,

or at the very least they chop off his member and take turns screwing him with it… so he’s actively involved for the audience 14-25.

… I’m sure there’s several others. I think I could come up with something more coherent if we open this up to television series and soaps.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 5:05 am ¶
leslie wrote:

This is a very simple request- a black with a black woman, in a real love situation. No nagging baby mama, no bitchy, ghetto girlfriend. Its a shame that the only time you see a black man make good sweet love to a black woman is on productions like The Wire. You would think that now black men are getting better roles, only Will Smith really, they would actually show them feeling up a black woman. Instead the woman is usually asian or latin, something a white public can see as attractive. I wonder if they think that a black on black sex scene is just too foreign, hard to relate to.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 5:07 am ¶
Marco wrote:

What if the the producer, writer, and director of a movie willfully invoke racial stereotypes in a clever and “tasteful” manner, so as to make a more general point (preferably for social justice)?

Or what if racial stereotypes ad racist images in a movie are intentionally juxtaposed against nonracial and anti-racist characters and images to highlight the complexity of race?

Although I’m always troubled and disturbed when I see movies portraying their characters in racist or race-typical ways, I’m equally as interested in seeing HOW and to what end these images are being deployed.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 10:17 am ¶
Jeremy Pierce wrote:

I’ve got an easier test:

1. The movie’s not racially problematic in any way, and there’s no redeeming value in it that’s enough to make it worth seeing anyway.

Rules of thumb are fine as long as you see them as just rules of thumb with lots of exceptions. Isn’t it better just to focus on the moral principles behind such rules?

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 10:26 am ¶
Janette wrote:

Free wrote:

RE: Danny Glover – I wonder if he’s talked to Will Smith.

A kids movie

1. young black girl learna she’s a princess
2. her curly or nappy hair isn’t straightened – not considered ghetto in her kingdom
3. she is not being rescued from poverty or sexual abuse
4. not one person in her family is a drunk or on drugs
5. she is loved

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 12:15 am ¶

Umm does Crooklyn count?

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 11:37 am ¶
Free wrote:

@Janette – Yes. Crooklyn counts.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 12:22 pm ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

Leslie 42
-Love and basketball…as far as a really hot Black + Black love scene.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 1:08 pm ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

-A tastefully done inter-racial love scene would be interesting too

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
Monie wrote:

Monie’s list of films with two non-White leads that talk to each other but don’t talk about White people:

1. Chop Shop
2. Anne B. Real
3. Quinceañera
4. Fire
5. She’s Gotta Have It
6. Planet Brooklyn

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 1:10 pm ¶
Glenda wrote:

Certainly, whatever one’s preferences in moviegoing, are acceptable. However, once I was about to enter a theatre, and two black women were standing near the same theatre.
my (white) 7 yo dd and i were standing near them. one of them said she would not see a movie unless one of the main characters is black. I was upset that such a thing was said within my daughter’s earshot, but didn’t say anything. the womans friend brought my daughter to her attention. She didn’t care.
I quickly scooted my daughter away from there. However, I dont believe she heard anything.
I still feel it was an inappropriate thing to say for her to hear. And frankly, I didn’t like hearing it either. (Once again, let me say I feel we are all entitled to our movie preferences. And we may talk about them whenever we like. But I don’t think it was right.)

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 1:29 pm ¶
Persia wrote:

What would happen if you made an SF or superhero movie in which the lead character is POC? Would the world explode?

Blade made good box office. And so did The Scorpion King. It’s depressing that Hollywood chooses not to build on those successes, or if a similar movie flops, the whole concept gets thrown out the window.

And I agree with what others have said: the Bechdel test is a guideline, and so should be very simple. Honestly if you just have:

Two POCs
Who talk to each other
Not about a white person

You’ve knocked out most mainstream Hollywood movies, haven’t you? I think the last Western movie I saw that passed that test was Sunshine.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 2:03 pm ¶
Kendra wrote:

@ Baiskeli:

Someone already mentioned Akira’s Hip Hop Shop.

A feature film which deals with race issues in a realistic way, given the individual’s perspective and how those around said individual felt in that microcosm. Obviously, no movie should be taken as the sample for a population. In short, I liked it.

Another film that I really love just in the way interracial relationships–in a very wheel of tyranny fashion–are treated is Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants 2. Carmen gets a white British guy and overcomes the white princess/maid power relationship by the end of the movie, so that was extremely relevant. She didn’t “stay in her place,” and that in itself was very important given her race and role in the movie.

You also get some love for the Asian guy who was shirtless for a good amount of time. XD Oh, and another guy is naked in this movie, but he’s modeling for artists. There were a lot of attractive men in this movie. I loved how the relationships were just normal.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶
Eva wrote:

I love this.

My mom grew up in the 1940’s when there was no TV, only radio. She said she used her imagination to picture what the characters looked like. In a lot of ways, she had it better than folks have now.

I would just like to see a movie where the male and female lead actually are attracted to each other. I hate seeing movies where the man and woman hate each other in the beginning but fall madly in love by the end. For some reason that bothers me.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 2:56 pm ¶
Free wrote:

I’m back with one last comment.

Eve’s Bayou – anyone remember this lush and complicated film set in Louisiana, written and directed by Kasi Lemmons? Fits the criteria of:

Two POCs (an entire black cast)
Who talk to each other
Not about a white person (small exception – the opening narration mentioning the French in the Batiste family ancestry which brings to mind the Code Noir).

Jurnee Smollett (Eve Batiste) should have received an Oscar nomination for best actress (like Haley Joel Osmet did for best actor in The Sixth Sense). And no Best Supporting nomination for Debbie Morgan (Mozelle Batiste Delacroix), an outstanding actress now relegated to soap operas.
Shame.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 3:34 pm ¶
lakergrrl wrote:

@ Monie and Leslie

What about Brown Sugar?

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 3:44 pm ¶
brownstocking wrote:

@ free, soaps are Debbie’s heritage. She started out in soaps, nothing wrong with honest, clean (tee hee) work! She was the first Black soap character I remember, and fell in love with.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 3:48 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:

@ Fred
“Now there are other issues with the movie, crazy Arabs making a plane into a chemical weapon to destroy the East Coast, but it was quite refreshing to see a movie where the POC guys don’t die.”

Um, except the crazy Arabs.

It would be great to see a movie where PoC didn’t have to prove their worth to white people by killing/maiming/defaming other PoC. Can we work that one in there?

Also: I don’t know if working toward White “neutrality” is an ultimate goal either: what’s wrong with having some cultural specifics just because? We are so clued into neutral=whiteness that you rarely even see “ethnic” white people onscreen unless it is a plot point. The complaints about Jennifer Lopez are on point here–why can’t she just be Latina AND a fed (or a wedding planner or whatever)? Why should we need to neutralize ourselves of all culturally specific detail in order be the center of a story?

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 3:52 pm ¶
Monie wrote:

lakergrrl,

Brown Sugar is another good addition to the list.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 4:20 pm ¶
Free wrote:

back again —

@brownstocking – I had no idea. But still, she should act in more movies. If I had the money these women would have lots of scripts to choose from:
Debbie Morgan, Alfre Woodard, Angela Bassett, Gina Torres, Gabriel Union, Nia Long and Nona Gaye.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 5:03 pm ¶
h2o_girl wrote:

A pretty good kids’ movie – Akeelah & The Bee.

Sure, there’s plenty of stereotyping (overachieving Asian kid with a pushy dad comes to mind) but all the main characters are PoC, and no one talks about white people.

And one of my guilty pleasures – Drumline.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 7:31 pm ¶
Nina wrote:

Personally I thought “Brown Sugar” was awful. Totally stereotypical idea about the birth of hip hop and what it means to our generation. I hated it. And I love Sanaa Lathan. I would say “Love and Basketball” over “Brown Sugar.”

At any rate, in relation to this question I think TV shows just do casting better than movies. For e.g. a show like “Oz” : prisoners are all races, the priest was B.D. Wong, Ernie Hudson is the warden, Rita Moreno as a nun, Lauren Velez as the doctor. The Law and Order franchise and CSI:Miami seem to also do a good job of employing actors of color without pushing tired racial storylines.

Any of the Hollywood movies could have characters of color with no change to the story or diaogue. Throw in Regina King here or Nia Long there (add “Best Man” to the list). Any love interest in a movie could be Asian or Latino without changing anything about the script. The people in power just don’t see it that way since they are not PoC.

At this rate the only movies I go to see ina theater are Spike Lee’s. I know there will be characters of color, I know that there will be lots to talk about (good or bad). I know I won’t regret the cost of the ticket.

Did anyone see “Secret Life of Bees”. It seems that it may have fit the bill for some posters above but oh those trailers were killing me…the air of magical negro and the lip syching scene. From here on out, no self-respecting acctresses of color should agree to that tired scene of women singing into hairbrushes. Gag me!

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 9:09 pm ¶
John McCollum wrote:

I hope this isn’t too off topic. It’ll come around in the end…

First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate Racialicious. As a white man struggling to understand race and racism, forums like this are invaluable. Having grown up in a white neighborhood with parents who never discussed race, this site allows me to hear others’ perspectives and absorb alternate experiences. Thank you, Carmen, et. al.

Last night I saw a bumper for a Lifetime special that, only a few years ago would have completely passed my notice. Last night, however, it floored me.

It had everything — a drug addicted, black single mother on the brink of the abyss, a suburban white woman who cared enough to save her, and a homeless magic negro (played by Ben Vereen, no less) whose earthy, yet wise aphorisms showed both women the beauty that lies within us all.

I guess I’m saying I’d like to see a movie with a black man over the age of 60 who was neither particularly earthy nor particularly wise.

Anyway.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 9:33 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:

second Eve’s Bayou. Another good one was Daughters of the Dust, which had first-rate cinematography as well as acting and interesting group of characters.

I like to see geek girls of any race feature in movies – even if East Asian. I enjoyed the lesbian romantic comedy Saving Face (Chinese surgery resident, typical obsessive-compulsive ultra-responsible geek surgeon type, meets much more spontaneous, though still intense, white ballerina/modern dancer. Though I am white, I identify with the Asian resident rather than the white dancer due to the geek and medical subculture factors.)

I think that part of the reason why Star Trek TNG and DS9 characters listen to classical music is that so much modern pop music is ephemeral. I’d be fairly certain that someone out there will be listening to the best classical music and jazz in 2300 – but most hip-hop will be going the way of disco music in relatively short order. Historians may fancy it, but most people move on to more recent pop music – how many people do you know who prefer pop music from before they were born? (well, I plead guilty). It would be great to have some sort of simple pop music of 2300 featured, but someone’s got to write stuff that sounds truly unfamiliar.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 10:24 pm ¶
Medusa wrote:

Re: Free

A kids movie

1. young black girl learna she’s a princess
2. her curly or nappy hair isn’t straightened – not considered ghetto in her kingdom
3. she is not being rescued from poverty or sexual abuse
4. not one person in her family is a drunk or on drugs
5. she is loved

Do you all remember the 1997 remake of Cinderella? It doesn’t fit all of your criteria, free, but her hair is braided, she ends up being loved and becoming a princess, and that movie ignored all race rules.

Posted 13 Nov 2008 at 11:45 pm ¶
Bagelsan wrote:

A lot of times I stick with anime to avoid the whitewhitewhitewash. A great one is Black Lagoon, which is very diverse without being ridiculously self-conscious about it. Also, I found it interesting because it was a Japanese take on mostly PoC (instead of the white view you almost always get from US-made stuff.)

It’s all about modern-day pirates and gangsters and stuff, so yanno, the Russian lady is the head of the Russian mob and the main black character kills people for a living, but EVERYONE does this so it’s cool. And one of the two main characters is a Chinese-American ex-pat (who I have a major lesbian crush on, ps.) The only main white character is Jewish, and is dating an Indian counterfeiter. The show has just about everyone in there somewhere: Israeli? Sure. Colombian, Vietnamese, Transylvanian (no joke), no problem! Yeah, most of these people constantly try to kill each other –and often succeed– but the violence is really only racialized in a historical context, if at all.

(Not AT ALL kid-appropriate, btw. Just in case someone saw “anime” and thought “cartoon”.)

/geek

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 12:23 am ¶
Medusa wrote:

Oh, also, Romeo Must Die. I don’t remember the movie too well, but it features Aaliyah and Jet Li as love interests, and I don’t think they talked about white people (or race) at all…it was more like “You can’t date him because we are…from different families, yeah that’s it!”

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 12:43 am ¶
kamala wrote:

sorry I am late to the discussion;

@atlasien #3: what is a “typical intersectionalist”?

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 7:26 am ¶
John McCollum wrote:

to wit, http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/2008/11/14/2008-11-14_fans_wonder_if_they_can_bond_with_black_-1.html

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 10:22 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

Intersectionalism: short definition.

I’m just using it to mean that I don’t think racism is always worse than sexism, or sexism is always worse than racism, or that either is worse or better than any other system of discrimination. As a general rule, you just have to look at things on a case-by-case basis and realize that a lot of these things intersect.

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 11:16 am ¶
Brandon wrote:

I’d like to throw two interesting recent films into the discussion: I’m Not There and Palindromes. Both films have a variety of actors portraying the main character, including POC and different genders. I think that this is more than just an artistic trick to interest audiences: it’s exploratory in terms of gender, race, age, etc. and how it affects character.

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 11:24 am ¶
Slush wrote:

Sorry, I am joining this late, but the Bechdel/feminist test is not an anti-stereotype test. Well, it is a little bit, but not in the way people are talking about. Sex in the City passes the test, and it mainly tries to reinforce all kinds of stereotypes about women. At times they don’t talk about men, okay, but is it better that they talk about expensive handbags? No.

The test is merely a way to identify a movie that manages to recognize, even for only a minute, the equal humanity of women, by daring to cast them as someone with an identity and agenda of their own. I love this test and I think of it every time I see a movie. It makes me also notice how many supplemental characters whose gender is not essential to the plot are always men.

So I think the race version could work if you set the same extremely low bar:

1. Two characters of color
2. Who talk to each other

I’m not sure it even needs a third element. When’s the last time you saw a movie that satisfied those first two?
(Having had my eye on the Bchdel test for some time, there aren’t that many movies that meet the first two and fail on the lest element. A few, sure. But mainly it’s that the women only interact with men, because the movie is about men, and what the movie cares about is how the women affect the central male characters.)

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 1:40 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

Duane Jones in Night of the Living Dead (1968): “the first time a black actor was cast in a lead role of a major motion picture that did not specify the part had to be played by a black actor.”

YES!!! I saw that for the first time a month ago.

It is a revolutionary film in that the character isn’t trying to be “black” or “not black”. He simply takes charge of the situation without the “angry black lieutenant” vibe. He only died at the END.

Why he doesn’t get more shine from us, I do not understand.

I will buy the movie for his performance.

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 2:36 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

[sorry for the 2x post]

Thanks John for the link. Yes, I saw the response from Clem.

You also have Lifetime pegged. They’ve done that movie a number of times.

Posted 14 Nov 2008 at 2:50 pm ¶
Sin Vergüenza wrote:

@ Medusa

I’m sorry… But Romeo Must Die gets a big “F” from me. I haven’t seen it since it came out, but I vividly remember being outraged at the end of the film because (predictably) Jet Li was NEVER ALLOWED to kiss Alliyah on screen. It completely played into the “emasculated/desexed Asian Man” stereotype. He can fight but he can’t get the girl? Come on!

Posted 15 Nov 2008 at 3:14 pm ¶
Restructure! wrote:

1. It has to have at least two people of colour of different races in it as main characters;
2. They interact with/talk to each other;
3. Their interaction should have nothing to do with race or “cultural differences”.

Posted 16 Nov 2008 at 1:25 pm ¶
Witchsistah wrote:

<iAnd if there’s another Star Trek film that they listen to something other than classical music, have uptight socially upper-class interests, and no black women with strange ethnic sounding names unless we’re actually driven to learn more of their characters’ background, culture, history or giant hats that also work as a portal to narnia or east l.a.

I peeved off LeVar Burton at a book signing asking him why no one on Trek listened to any BLACK music. I can’t believe NO ONE in the 24th century wouldn’t blow some P-Funk in their quarters after a particularly difficult shift (I also imagine them chillin’, spliff in hand but that’s just me). There are tons of classical music experts but NO funk (or any type of Black-based or derived music outside of very, very Kenny G type jazz) aficionados.

I think that part of the reason why Star Trek TNG and DS9 characters listen to classical music is that so much modern pop music is ephemeral. I’d be fairly certain that someone out there will be listening to the best classical music and jazz in 2300 – but most hip-hop will be going the way of disco music in relatively short order. Historians may fancy it, but most people move on to more recent pop music – how many people do you know who prefer pop music from before they were born? (well, I plead guilty). It would be great to have some sort of simple pop music of 2300 featured, but someone’s got to write stuff that sounds truly unfamiliar.

No, the reason why damn near everyone on Trek listens to classical or jazz has everything to do with copyright laws and therefore using public domain properties. Otherwise, they’d have to pay whomever owned the rights to the particular piece they wanted to use.

And almost 30 years after the birth of hip-hop, there are still folk (hoping, praying?) saying that it’s just a fad and will go away soon. I believe there’d be hip-hop experts in the 24th just like there are smooth jazz and classical ones. I think hip-hop would be studied just like the other two genres.

Posted 17 Nov 2008 at 7:28 pm ¶
shah8 wrote:

I’m really late, but I do want to offer this to the discerning movie-goer…

Ghost Dog, Way of the Samurai

sure it’s in contrast to some of the other rules posted in the thread, but I still think it’s one of *the* most deftly handled movies with minority ethos.

Posted 18 Nov 2008 at 2:05 pm ¶
JB wrote:

I liked the relationship in the first Blade movie, black male heroic lead, black female lead…sadly her character vanished and by the third movie Blade had no love interest and the movie was as much about his 2 white sidekicks as it was him…

Posted 19 Nov 2008 at 4:11 pm ¶
Medusa wrote:

Sin Verguenza,

I suppose you’re right. I dont’ remember the movie well at all, just that there was a black woman cast opposite an Asian man, and I don’t think the family addressed race as an issue tha they shouldn’t be together.

Posted 20 Nov 2008 at 6:41 am ¶
Jeremy Pierce wrote:

Riker is a jazz trombone player, so Star Trek has jazz. Tom Paris likes 20th century rock music.

The only black woman I remember with an African name is Uhura, who actually was supposed to be African. Roddenberry’s idea was to have the Enterprise crew represent the world at large, hence Sulu from Japan, Checkov from Russia (during the cold war, no less), and Scotty from Scotland. ( We certainly will get a black woman with an African name in the next Star Trek movie, because she’s in it. It remains to be seen how they’ll handle her, though. I don’t even know much about Zoe Saldana, who is playing her.

For the record, the guy who played the head terrorist in Iron Man is going to be a Starfleet Captain in the new Star Trek movie, and he says he was delighted to be a good guy for a change. I believe this is the first Arab character in Star Trek in a prominent position, but I may be wrong about that.

Posted 30 Nov 2008 at 9:26 am ¶
Westerly wrote:

Just saw “Romeo Must Die” again recently. Passes the test in terms of not *yawn* talking about white people all day long at least… But I know that the seeming lack of romantic reward was an issue with this one.

It’s a funny one because on the one hand, the chemistry between Trish and Han in the taxi scene is sparkling, and the dynamic between them throughout is cute – it’s flirtatious and endearing, kiss or no. They also back each other up which is nice to watch (Sure he had the moves, but they didn’t force her to be a totally wet, shrieking damsel in distress either).

And yes, there is racial stereotyping (”all guys in HK do kung fu” and “hip-hop culture is wearing your hat backwards, swaggering and ferociously chewing gum”, – though the stereotypes seemed to be recognised as such and were gently mocked/sent-up).

But yes, in formulaic genre films like this, the hero kicks butt and ‘gets’ the girl as they lock lips at the end. Here, they embrace, but noticeably… no kiss.

On the one hand I completely understand why people are sick to death of seeing emasculated Asian male heroes (as am I) and I am not trying to dismiss this concern at all. This movie may well be guilty of it.

But on the other hand, I am equally as sick of the tired generic convention of ’sex as reward’ where it’s apparently ”mandatory’ for the leads to always kiss at the end.

Trish and Han worked for me because I believed their chemistry of their brief encounters and the gradual, cautious arc. I think that too often you calculated, predictable kisses, ones that are forced out-of-the-blue or leads suddenly pawing at each other for no discernable reason, in order to mask a distinct LACK of chemistry and to force a romance.

Wasn’t necessary here.

The flirtation/attraction was visible and charming but the ‘detective partners/pals’ dynamic made it even better. A fast growing connection/friendship between them was actually more romantic, sexier and plausible to me than any shoe-horned displays of lust thrown in simply indicate what was already there.

And think about it – if you’d had your hands almost fried off after having fighting a former friend who had murdered your brother; confronted your father and discovered that he was behind it all; only for your father to then proceed to blow his brains out – would you *really* be in the mood for someone to be leaping all over you in a hot and wild make-out session?

Given the circumstances Trish’s comforting hug, stroking his face and worried ”are you okay”, then gently leading him away seemed far more tender, sensitive and believable to me (and suggestive of a caring relationship), than the standard Hollywood playbook where injured, grief-stricken, traumatised people fall into a made for Hollywood lip-lock.

So maybe that’d be one of *my* rules – characters kissing at believable moments, and no shoe-horned lust on cue and as a ‘clue’ for what the relationship (or hero/heroine) is really “worth”.

Posted 06 Apr 2009 at 9:06 pm ¶

Is there a Bechdel test for race?

Trackbacks & Pings

Comments

« Home

About This Post

Categories

Subscribe to This Blog

Search

About This Blog