Diversity and the “Cultural Elite” of New York

by Guest Contributor Joanna Eng

The September 25 issue of Time Out New York (TONY) featured a list of their favorite 40 New Yorkers who have made an impact on the city in the past 13 years. I was appalled to see that out of the 40 cultural leaders that they highlighted, only three were people of color (Jay-Z, Derek Jeter, and Junot Diaz), two weren’t even human (Spider-Man and the MetroCard), and the other 35 were white.

Right after reading the issue, I and probably hundreds of other readers wrote letters to TONY to call them out on their list’s glaring lack of diversity as it tried to represent one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world. In my letter I said, “Rather than reminding us that white people are still in power, you could have been a little more creative with this list.” And I proceeded to list several people I would have liked to see on the list: Rosario Dawson, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Jean Grae, David Paterson, Chang-Rae Lee, Rosie Perez, Majora Carter, Rosie Mendez, etc.

They must have gotten quite a number of these letters, because a week later they had posted a piece online called “Where are all the people of color?” In the article, a TONY editor basically continued to defend and justify the lack of diversity in the list, and sparked even more angry comments from readers. The response piece, in some ways, was even more appalling than the original list because it showed no sign of regret and stated even more clearly (in case we didn’t get the point the first time) that they believed that New York’s “cultural elite” was made up of mostly white people.

After commenters threatened to cancel their subscriptions and criticized the editorial staff for being clueless and lacking in diversity themselves, TONY must have started to realize the significance of their mistake. I received an email from another editor saying that they were preparing for a future issue on the topic and were looking for suggestions of more people of color that readers would have liked to see on the list. So I wrote back listing a few more people I had thought of since, such as James McBride, Pauline Park, and Nydia Velazquez. Even though my respect for TONY was waning, I was eager to see what they would do next.

The November 6 issue displays the result of their scrambling to make things right. The feature of the issue focuses on what is most essential to New York City, and the first topic they address is diversity. They asked questions about diversity and multiculturalism to a panel of 15 well-known New Yorkers including Santogold, Talib Kweli, James McBride, Vijay Iyer, and Young Jean Lee. TONY showed themselves to be naive with some of their questions; for example, “Are we a melting pot or a mosaic?” and “Is ‘color-blind’ the right approach?” But I did appreciate the fact that that they published these panelists’ responses, including some harsh criticisms of TONY, like Danny Hoch saying: “Only entitled white people who are in charge possess the cluelessness to ask these benign questions in 2008.” I get the vibe that TONY still doesn’t fully understand what the problem was in the first place, but is at least willing to host conversations about racism, gentrification, and diversity.

On the last page of the article about diversity, there’s a box that says, “Despite NYC’s diversity, it’s not often that you find yourself amid a nice racial mix. Here are some of our favorite places to break out of the monochromatic social scene.” They list 10 places you can go to hang out among a mixed crowd (like TV On the Radio concerts and the New York Public Library). It got me thinking about the places I hang out and whether it is actually difficult to find racially diverse spots. Sure, there are plenty of bars and restaurants and venues in the city that are chock full of people from similar backgrounds, but I don’t think you really have to look that far to find a place with a more diverse crowd. (I might not use Time Out New York to find it, though!)

Readers in New York and other culturally diverse places, what has your experience been? When you go out, is a diverse crowd the norm or the exception?

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. The Jose Vilson — Saying It When No One Else Will on 12 Nov 2008 at 11:23 pm

    [...] Racalicious posted about the lack of racial diversity in the New York 40. A valid point, but don’t they mean New York 41? Didn’t get the memo? [...]

  2. Cutting Texas Off the Map at Crucial Minutiae - it’s the little things… on 14 Nov 2008 at 2:14 pm

    [...] I was surprised and not-surprised when I read last week at Racialicious that Time Out New York recently named 40 New Yorkers who made an impact on the city in the past 13 years, and only 3 of them were people of color. Two [...]

Comments

  1. Cynthia wrote:

    The “elite” crowd here in Toronto *CAN* be diverse, but it isn’t necessarily a reflection of Toronto’s diversity. In a lot of the clubs, non-white members are usually Chinese, Indian or middle eastern, as are those who attend independent schools. Also, Toronto Life, a lifestyle magazine, recently published a list of some of the non-WASPs people (mostly South Asian, with one Jamaican with an Asian last name and one Russian) who lived in a new-money enclave in Toronto as part of their December issue which features a whole section on Toronto’s diversity.

    As for more regular folks, I don’t see much mixing in the older generations. There’s more in the younger crowd (Gen X, Cuspers, Millennials and younger), but it isn’t as mixed as you think it is if you look closely. It generally depends on how long one has been in Toronto and how well-versed one is with other cultures. Most newer arrivals and sometimes, even those who came young, just don’t care.

  2. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    Perhaps TONY editors exist in the same NY that the kids from Gossip Girl and the SATC quartet live in – the same 10 blocks of Manhattan. TONY’s little list is pitiful, and seems to have come to the conclusion that New York = Manhattan and the trendy (read, succumbing to gentrification) parts of Brooklyn. I’d give that an F for effort.

    There are parts of all 5 boroughs that are enclaves of one particular culture but having grown up in Queens, I find it utterly preposterous that anyone would claim to have difficulty in finding themselves amid a”nice racial mix” in NYC. In fact, I always feel a bit weirded out when I go out find myself in a crowd of the “cultural elite” – it’s like being back in college.

  3. Jus Plain Ol Me wrote:

    Shouldn’t Spike Lee’s name be on that list???!!! Is he a New Yorker?

    What about P. Diddy? Wasn’t he the face of Vote or Die? Doesn’t he or hasn’t he had billboard ads up in Time Square? Didn’t he run the New York Marathon to much fanfare? Doesn’t he (or hasn’t he) had at least three reality shows based in New York City that highlight various parts of the metropolis. I love Jay-Z much more as an MC, but Diddy belongs on this list as much if not more than Jay-Z unless there is some criteria he failed to meet. For example, does someone have to be a native New Yorker? (Is Diddy a native New Yorker?)

    Maybe Fat Joe should be up for consideration as well.

    The cultural contributions of Diddy and Spike Lee dwarf that of Spider-Man, the MetroCard, SNL cast members and the host of a show about fashion. Maybe it’s just me, but I think we’ll be talking about Do The Right Thing twenty years from now. I don’t think we’ll be looking back and recalling the cultural impact of “The Runway” or “Baby’s Mama.”

    And I love me some Jean Grae, but I don’t think she’s had enough success to make this kind of list. However, I must admit that I don’t know at least half of that Top 40 list. Then again, I’m not a New Yorker.

  4. Jus Plain Ol Me wrote:

    I also failed to list Russell Simmons. How was he not listed?

  5. Dana wrote:

    Diddy is a native New Yorker, he’s from Mt. Vernon I believe. Anyhow the point is T.O.N.Y is not the voice of New York. There are more than 10 good culturally diverse places to go in and around the five boroughs of New York City and beyond than are on that list.

  6. em wrote:

    well, i spent three years in new york teaching in the south bronx. i’m white and i lived with my white and queer roommate for two of them. she was in grad school, and while she may have internet dated one person of color, she rarely met any people of color in her day to day activities as a grad student, intern, and campus employee. most of her friends and acquaintances identified as queer.

    i, of course, built relationships with many people of color (students, families, co-workers), but only because i went to the south bronx every day. i think the new york social scene is pretty segregated unless you have a job that helps mix things up, or you go looking for it. at least from my white perspective…

  7. Natasha Vincent wrote:

    That Danny Hoch is hardcore. I now worry that I’m uninformed since, living in Montreal, diversity abounds.

    Drive 45 minutes off the island in any direction though and it’s an entirely different world.

    Still, I wonder if gentrification is exclusive to “entitled white people” (aka “culturally elite”).

    Our gentrified neighborhoods (Monkland Village, Plateau, Westmount, ahem, adjacent) have a mix of all kinds.

    Predominantly, err, “culturally elite” but it sounds a heck of a lot more diverse than what you’re dealing with down in NY.

  8. elise wrote:

    I read the same issue and had the same problems. I also read the follow up and still had the same problems. While I applaud TONY for trying, it seemed majorly too little and too late. I don’t have the issue, but I applaud the reader who made the connection that when you ask your predominantly white staff who the movers and shakers are, you are going to get a predominantly white slice of NYC. And that’s not representative at all.

    OTOH, I have found some pretty crazy and fun things to do via TONY, so I won’t be cancelling my subscription just yet. I have noticed that I’m having to delve a little deeper to find those off-beat things. I’ll give it another year before I rely soley on blogs, email newsletters, and word of mouth though.

    As to the question, it all depends on where I go. I don’t find diversity in the trendification areas of Billyburg or Wall Street where I work, but if you go outside your comfort zone, it’s easy to find a diverse crowd. You just have to have diverse interests.

  9. cinco wrote:

    This is why it seems like we have so far to still go in America. If a diverse city like NYC, has people unwilling to admit to the diversity, we know some red neck town in the boon docks will not address the issue anytime soon.

  10. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    !!!!

    this is shocking and appalling. Last time I checked, aren’t there more POC than white people in the Big Apple?!?!

    How totally “FRIENDS” like of those assholes to only put 3 POC on a New Yorkers list…

    LMAO. morons!!!

  11. Anonymous wrote:

    Is there something similar to TONY in Los Angeles? I’d be interested to see a list compiled by folks about being “racially diverse” or a list of great contributors to LA society and see how it stacks up. not that I expect LA to be any better but I’d like to know anymore.

  12. Monie wrote:

    Em said “she rarely met any people of color in her day to day activities as a grad student, intern, and campus employee. most of her friends and acquaintances identified as queer.”

    And of course there are no people of color that identify as queer. Also there are no POC grad students in N.Y. either.

    Basically your point is that unless POC conform to what you think we should be, living in the South Bronx for example, we don’t exist.

    Are you one of the editors from Time Out N.Y.?

  13. em wrote:

    @ Monie: i absolutely know people of color who identify as queer.

    i was referring to roommate/friend who is white and identifies as queer and was a grad student. all of her queer friends were white. if anything, i think this further underscores the point that prop 8 has brought to light: there is a huge racial/classist disconnect in the GLBTQ community.

    and as for the people of color i knew from work, yes my students and their families were from the south bronx (that’s where my school was), but none of my co-workers lived there.

    if my comment came across differently, well that’s my bad for not being more specific. hope that helps.

  14. em wrote:

    i have no idea if there were poc in my roommate’s program or if they were queer. i’m just noting the lack of diversity in her social sphere, which was what this post was wondering about towards the end.

  15. Jess wrote:

    OK, devil’s advocate, I could certainly see cultural “elites” as being less diverse by far than the cities they are in. These things change over many years, and a snapshot like that won’t tell you much.

    If I were to list the trendsetters over decades, as it were, it would be a white-ish list. Why? Because I would have checked out people’s careers over decades, and the people Latoya listed are mostly younger and haven’t had the kind of time to make an impact that some other folks have — I mean, the opportunities just weren’t there in 1968 the way they are now. And a lot of them are dead because they got old. (If I were to compile a similar list in 2048 it would be mostly non-white, I bet).

    BUT, and this is a big BUT — TONY seemed to want to be younger and hipper, and on that basis, their list was really stupid and inexcusable. TONY wasn’t, it seems, looking at people who had accomplished things over a decades-long span. And even then, though my list might be whiter than one would like, even I can come up with a few people who date back pretty far and have been moving the cultural scene here for a long time, and I am hardly the hippest guy to walk the streets.

    Anyhow, as to finding mixed crowds — it depends on the context. Clubbing (I haven’t done that for a while here) tended to center around musical genres a lot of the time, so a little bit of ethnic “clustering” was expected — I did not expect to see many white kids at a club where the specialty was Caribbean salsa music, you know? And I am old enough to remember when few white kids listened to hip-hop. (That has changed, obviously).

    Then there’s neighborhood. The Upper West Side is a bit whiter, though that is changing in weird ways because of gentrification and the kinds of professionals that move in — the non-white people I see around tend to lean to those from, like, India or something, and a lot of up-and-coming latin families. But overall Manhattan’s ethnic patters aren’t becoming more or less diverse but just shifting, as they always do. More working class areas such as Hell’s Kitchen and Queens are going to be more diverse than SoHo. But something tells me that UWS won’t be considered an old Jewish neighborhood in 2048.

    In New York, how can you be in a place that isn’t diverse in a way that is more so than a lot of American cities? We’re packed so close I don’t see how I could avoid running into people from a whole stack of ethnic backgrounds even if I were insane and wanted to.

  16. drispe wrote:

    This is exactly why I don’t read magazines regularly. It’s doubly insulting that Time Out NY can’t recognize diversity in a city it supposedly represents, but many major publications are published here, and their scope of interest is just as limited despite the melting pot around them. They don’t hire people of color either, which I know from being an office temp.
    Honestly, I don’t see much in the way of social mixing around town. Maybe that changes when it comes to shopping, but it depends on the stores. Williamsburg is supposed to be arty, Chelsea is supposedly a gay mecca, etc. These places are are populated by people who give its local business an overwhelmingly white patronage, though. Ultimately the quirky differences that make one different from an average person of color are slow to equal a welcome mat in “eclectic” neighborhoods.

  17. Marge Twain wrote:

    I am kind of giddy that TONY got called out so loud they couldn’t ignore it and hit where it hurts (the pocketbook) It’s still laughable that they needed to ask their readers to find them some PoC, even in Manhattan, and that they assumed that diversity for their (assumed white) readers would mean stepping outside their comfort zone to mingle in a mixed club. Can we turn our sights on Vogue and Vanity Fair next?

  18. A former staffer wrote:

    I used to work for Time Out, and I think the editor’s defensive letter is a total cop-out. “We stand by our choices?” Please. New York is one of the most diverse cities in the world, and if TONY’s editors can’t find people of color to highlight, that says more about their failure to truly know the city than it does about anything else. (Do they really think that proportionally, POC aren’t creating culture as much as whites?) It’s the classic, “No, YOU are the one who brings race into everything!!!!” response.

    Time Out is a good magazine with well-intentioned staff, but it’s pretty clueless when it comes to diversity. I was fortunate to work with someone who shared my commitment to featuring diverse writers and story subjects, but I don’t think diversity was important for a lot of editors. I think people felt like they wanted to be more diverse with coverage but didn’t know where to start. Other people were just clueless, so if you were saying that it was offensive to refer to bushy pubic hair as being like Macy Gray’s hairstyle, you were labeled too PC.

    In short, TONY means well but still has a lot of work to do. Asking people about race is an OK step, but a better one would be to see POC as cultural forces — to feature POC who are doing things, not just calling on them to talk to white people about race.

  19. SarahSimone wrote:

    @ Monie

    I have to say mt experiences in New York often mirror that of Em’s. The school where I did my undergrad degree had very few POC. I had several internships all within the film or music industry, and again there were almost no POC. One of the few Black girls in my class interned at W magazine and said she was the only Black person there. I don’t want to put words in anybody’s mouth but I don’t think Em’s point was as sinister as you make it out to be, it was just sharing an experience.

    I think its important to admit that in some areas we tend to self segregate or unintentionally segregate. Until we address that I’m not sure how we can move beyond it. And just because my experience was one where the majority of people around me were white, doesn’t mean I think that’s how it should be, and I certainly don’t blame POC. When I started college there were almost no POC in my classes. By my last year there were always a few in each class, and the school’s efforts to recruit a more diverse student body were starting to show. My point is that first we need to be honest about the problem, and then find a way to fix it. I just don’t think that attacking someone for talking about their personal experience is particularly helpful.

  20. gatamala wrote:

    Wait a minute….*goes in for a closer look*. Is that Client 9? Fuck is this shit?

    As for actors, we love Jeffrey Wright, but he hasn’t had “that role” that Philip Seymour Hoffman has had, nor the constant NYC stage presence of Hoffman or Liev Schreiber.

    Geez, I wonder why? Perhaps because he doesn’t get the sycophantic accolades from the “cultural elite”. Perhaps it’s racism…oh wait…that only exists in the South, Midwest and Spike Lee movies.

    This is a case study in urban, upper class, liberal white supremacy.

    TONY (is that supposed to be ironic?) can have the Chamber of Commerce approved-cultural elite.

    The REST of us can keep on being the CULTURAL VANGUARD, eventually they’ll catch up.

    ****
    I’d like to think that my social activities are diverse. It depends on the event. I rarely engage in anything that would be ___ only. Lately I’ve noticed the chocolate chip in the cookie syndrome encompasses several tables in a restaurant.

  21. Michelle wrote:

    I lived in NYC and the tri-state area for a combined 13 or so years. I now live in LA.

    I wouldn’t say that there is an exact parallel to TONY, but there is a magazine that has best of lists, etc. It is Los Angeles Magazine. Not quite as gritty and fun and “off-beat” as TONY, but with a similar set up. And it is white, white, white. But LA, while being very diverse is VERY segregated. If LA Mag did the same thing, it wouldn’t cause the same uproar.

  22. Sudy wrote:

    My NYC/east coast roots are indignant. The only thing in NYC that is all white is the snow. For a near White majority to emerge of the Cultural Elite list isn’t indicative of New York City’s finest, but the dimly lit staff behind the brainstorming.

    Ugh, infuriating.

  23. atlasien wrote:

    They wouldn’t be able to get away with a list like that in Atlanta.

  24. Ayo wrote:

    Definitely look at Vanity Fair, I was out to lunch and someone left this issue of Hollywood’s Next Wave of young talent: http: http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/08/nextwave200808

    Do people in NYC seriously need instructions on where to find hip colored people!? That is so sad it’s funny.

  25. MK wrote:

    Looks like the magazine editors have Hollywood on the brain, as in more pretty white people, deemed the “cultural elite.” Ok…

  26. Matt wrote:

    Not to deny that there’s a problem with the lack of POC on that list – but it kind bugs me when diversity is defined as inclusion of POC. And especially when it’s “cultural diversity” that’s defined as inclusion of POC. There are a lot of kinds of diversity.

  27. jvansteppes wrote:

    Jeffrey Wright is SO just as cool as Liev Schrieber! And he should be carrying movies by himself by now, he’s damn well proved his talent!

  28. Kelvin wrote:

    I don’t really understand the outrage here. I’ve never even heard of this magazine but then again I don’t live in NY. Why do so many people need white people to validate their existence? Ok! The magazine has a list that is lilly white so what? If you don’t like it then I suggest you ermmm unsubscribe. no? You’ll just end up petitioning (begging) all the time to be recognized. If someone does not recognize you of their own free will, I think it is wise to leave it alone. I hope you do know that whatever re-write they did was fake right? It was not sincere. They’ve shown you their sincere face and I guess you did not like it. If I were you, I would have just left it alone. I think at some point, as POC we have to stop begging people to recognize us. It is demeaning.

  29. dirkdiggler wrote:

    stop people. you know white people in nyc are overwhelmingly self-recognized liberals who are oftentimes seen in the wild congratulating themselves for their enlightened ways. so they can’t exhibit any bigotry. if someone has a problem, it’s all you “ethnics.”

  30. NancyP wrote:

    uh…..the GOVERNOR???? David Paterson. Also the first blind governor, so far as I know. Yes, he’s in Albany – so?

    OK, I see that the list is apparently the “cultural elite”. It’s hard for me to believe that they couldn’t come up with a few non-white names in literature, creators or performers of modern or classical dance, theater, and “serious” music (jazz and classical, not pop), influential academics, publishers, editors, fine artists, etc.

    Just to pick one at the top of her field:
    Audra Macdonald

    An academic, not as well known as his peers, but performing a unique function as director of the Schomberg Center for Research in Black Culture: Howard Dodson

    Sudy, you have to be kidding. Snow in NYC, white? Only before it lands on the ground…

  31. nonogirl wrote:

    I’ve lived in NYC (mostly Manhattan, Brooklyn for a little while) for the past decade and the city, although diverse along so many different lines is certainly not a melting pot. The only time you see people of different backgrounds coming together is in on public transportation or on the streets. And even then, a lot of the time, people seem uncomfortable at best, hostile and openly racist at worst. We have to remember that NYC is a city of immigrants and that people bring their racist and/or ignorant attitudes from their own countries. A lot of the encounters I have had are unfortunately with other POC, especially with Central and South Americans who cannot get over the fact that I am Asian (American and fourth generation at that!) and like to call me “China” “China” or “Chinita” or any other number of names to my face, completely unprovoked, in a not-so-nice leering kind of way. All my other friends in NYC that are of Asian decent have had this problem. Does anyone know what’s up with that? I’ve had Hispanic friends explain that it shouldn’t be taken in a derogatory fashion, but imagine if I went up to every person of South and Central American decent and pointed at them and taunted “Mexican, Mexican.” This is parallel since I’m not even Chinese. I think the name-calling is rude, nasty and demeaning. Cultural or not, a person with any common sense or respect for themselves would not go around calling people names. I’m genuinely curious. Please enlighten me, ha.

  32. Synaka wrote:

    Of the devils of advocate committee…

    Most of the people haven’t had the time or benefit outside of cheesy entertainment to be recognized or acknowledged for having an impact on the city. I doubt many NYers would even recognize who some of them are.

    One could have also turned to “meet the neighbors” — where it could be illustrated in the ways they envision the world as well as New York City.

    Perhaps it’s left with the argument, the magazine isn’t exactly up there with the must reads… it’s just another mostly superficial pop rag. So there’s not much accounting for taste.

    The lack of POC, non-english cultures, of ‘white’ associated and other immigrant groups isn’t exactly surprising, is it?

  33. Synaka wrote:

    ^ (of ‘white’ associated immigrant groups & other associated immigrant groups (recent or not. Amy Sedaris has a greek background (but mostly performs for ‘white’ entertainment), but I think her brother might have had more of impact than she has and even then, I could only say for about seven foot stretch of the city) for re-clarification….

    Ever done a random search for the

    “most influential” magazine

    or “most” anything …

    and find that many magazines aren’t all that diverse or wind up listing major icons in mainstream pop-culture rather than being reflective of the current/present time their influence is supposed to represent.

    That its representations even when attempting to promote more diverse groups … becomes cliché, promoting people who are already mainstream in the culture reflective of that localized media, whether it’s of a mainstream publication (which the track records for most media reviews are appaling) to even minority centered media.

    I don’t really know how big or much of an influence “Time Out” has … but maybe this attention will boost their subscriptions by making them known.

  34. A.D. Nix wrote:

    I love how TONY makes believe that they have no say in who even becomes considered by a larger audience as the “culturale elite.” i mean, it’s not like they have the opportunity to talk up new shows, acts or books or anything like that . . . It’s not like they’re an ART & ENTERTAINMENT FOCUSED MAGAZINE IN NEW YORK.

    Jesus.

    I’ve lived in NYC for 11 years – on the UWS, LES and most recently Williamsburg and Greenpoint. I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again: We ride the subway together but at days end, it’s to different places. I found more racist asshatery of the “I’m Post-racial!” kind in Precious Williamsburg and the LES than anywhere I’ve lived, save London. After leaving Columbia – diverse, sunshine/lollipops progressive, I had a lot of ‘what the hell??’ moments out and about in NY.

    It IS, no doubt a diverse city. NY media, however, is monochrome, monotone and monocultural.

    Those follow-up questions on race and ethnicity are evidence enough of the abject ridiculousness of their editorial staff. Biggups to Danny Hooch for getting meta on their ignorant asses.

  35. sepiadreams wrote:

    I’m from the SF Bay Area in California and I’ve been thinking about the recent Prop 8 debacle and why a high % of people of color voted for it.

    SF is facing the same issues as are represented in the TONY articles, I’ve lived here for 25 years and have never seen the city lose people of color and have their issues ignored year-after-year-after-year.

    None of my friends of the white persuasion have EVER reached out to or participated in the African American community (the few that are left). Their only direct participation has been in gentrifying traditional neighborhoods of color all in the spirit of the free market.

    I have held a long resentment about the massive funds raised re. HIV issues is particularly in SF and the concenr that not much of that funding has “trickled” into the black community (both homosexual and heterosexual).

    I’ve been a Dem foe years, I received no direct outreach regarding Prop 8.

    So no interests, no direct participation, no concern, no support. Even though I voted No on 8, I believe these are some of the reasons why Prop 8 ran into trouble.

    Reflects a similar color opacity as reflected in the articles above.

  36. monica wrote:

    I live in NYC, and this comes as no surprise to me. Like there are 2 America’s there are 2 NYC’s. A lot of these trendy folks were not even born and do not acknowledge NY’ers outside of Manhattan and the trendy parts of Brooklyn. Hey remember the Bronx, Queens, Staten Island.
    I guess they feel poc aren’t real NYers, like Palin doesn’t think NYers are real Americans.
    The usual white liberal hypocrites of NYC.

  37. dirkdiggler wrote:

    @ nonogirl:

    here’s your answer: there are many poc who are actually bigots. i know, in their culture they do this sort of stuff all the time. call all asians “chinos,” whites “gringos,” etc. but of course, it’s the dirty little secret, isn’t it, that here in america some of the worst bigots are actually other poc. and it’s worse not because they’re out there burning crosses on your lawn, but because poc here, of all people, understand how hurtful even subtle, soft bigotry is. so when they do it, it’s far more offensive. but acknowledging the fact that other poc are bigots themselves undermines their perspective of their own victimization, which seems to be a cottage industry for some.

    so the answer is, they are bigots. only they won’t acknowledge their bigotry because in their view, how can they be bigots when they are the victims of bigotry?

  38. D10 wrote:

    I’m not at all surprised. TONY’s target audience has always been (quite obviously) upper-middle class Manhattanites who think that claiming to be “liberal” means that they will not be scrutinized and/or criticized for their privileged ignorance. However, it is gratifying to know that enough readers were offended the magazine decided to engage in a dialog about who their magazine choses to represent and why.

  39. M wrote:

    KInd of like walking into a Apple Store. Am I the only one that notices that Apple manages to staff it’s stores full of people that in no way reflect the ethnic and cultural diversity of New Yorkers (including accents) and instead seems to wait at the airport for the hipster geek to get off from a flight from Seattle or SFO to offer them a job?
    This is typical of the “willaimsburg, downtown, and lowereast side ethnic rut that this mentality is stuck in.

  40. RChoudh wrote:

    Having grown up in NYC I can attest to the fact that although this is a highly diverse city, most New Yorkers tend to not mingle with others. This is especially true in neighborhoods with large immigrant populations. In Jackson Heights Queens for example you’ll have people of South Asian, East Asian, and Latino descent living just blocks of each other. You’ll find alot of stores and centers bearing the languages of the neighborhoods they are situated in. Yet you won’t find these neighbors interacting with anyone but their own kind. Manhattan I always imagined was not only diverse but also capable of allowing its neighbors to mingle more freely. But I also know that in the more “trendy” districts you’ll be hard pressed to find many minorities working and living there.

  41. Synaka wrote:

    I’m pretty much self absorbed, so when it comes to things I’m looking from the inside-out.

    I can’t help but digress just a little bit.

    For a moment, I wonder if it wasn’t centered to NY and they showed these people instead… would the reaction be the same based on appearances.

    Walter Francis White
    Phoebe Cates
    Mark-Paul Gosselaar
    Dean Cane
    Rob Schneider
    Miguel Ferrer
    Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson
    Vin Diesel
    Keanu Reeves
    Sophia Adella (Hernandez)
    Jenifer Tilly
    Kristin Kreuk
    Meg Tilly
    Norah Jones
    Linda Perry
    Kinnie Starr
    Jodi Ann Paterson
    Paul Kariya (NHL)
    Johnny Damon (MLB)
    George Joseph Herriman
    Melchor Gaston Ferrer

    Bliss Broyard
    Ben Kingsley
    Yul Brynner
    Archibald Stansfeld Belaney aka “Grey Owl”
    David Carradine
    Espera de Corti aka “Iron Eyes Cody”

    A similar message by the visual perhaps, but a bit more complicated. Sometimes I have to wonder if it wouldn’t matter what their backgrounds were … as long as they looked (identified with or were accepted for) the part.

    (But perhaps Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896) is the counter to that. On the bus to Rosa Parks. … An irony of the case describes the separate but equal issues and the exclusionary arguments that have barred many groups from pleading the 14th amendment.)

  42. akoma wrote:

    For a comparison, I encourage people to look at TimeOut Chicago’s list. In terms of the cover, I counted 8 poc on sight or familiarty alone (Asians, African Americans, and Latinos). They also have a “Late Great Heroes” list. I 3 out of the first 5 listed are definitely people of color. And of course they included Walter Lee Younger (Raisin in the Sun) in the top fictional characters list. It came out the same month as TONY, so what’s really New York’s excuse? However, to do the whole D.A. thing, maybe if Chicago’s staff had been limited to only 40, we would have seen a similar result.

  43. Harry Allen wrote:

    Danny Hoch’s statement—“Only entitled white people who are in charge possess the cluelessness to ask these benign questions in 2008.”—represents, I believe, a kind of jockeying for position, in front of Black people—the way white rappers used to beef with each other, for example, or, put another way, the way a teased kid will tease the hardest as soon as the attention is on someone else.

    In a way, it’s a type of bullying. It’s a form of show for the benefit of Black people, at whom the statement is really aimed. Of course, it’s really for the benefit of white people (e.g., Danny Hoch), because, under conditions dominated by racism (white supremacy), anything for the benefit of Black people is really for the benefit of white people.

    I’d rather deal with a “clueless” white person who asks questions, any day, seeking to effectively eliminate racism, than one who knows the answers, but seeks to maintain, expand, or refine white supremacy by skillfully pretending to do otherwise. I’m not talking about Danny Hoch, here.

    The questions TONY asked are just. *All* questions are clueless, by definition. People who know the true answers should give ones that the questioners understand, and won’t forget.

    —HA

  44. mkat wrote:

    I agree that this is a stupid list. You ride the subway and it’s a microcosm of all the different kinds of people that make NY great. To me, TONY is crafting their own specific view of what NY is to sell to a very specific (and moneyed!) audience. They’re just following the lame-ass consumer-driven gentrification trend in NY. I don’t read this mag because I think it’s boring and just a bunch of ads for crap to buy and not at all about the NY that I live in.

  45. Charlotte wrote:

    @ dirkdiggler

    “stop people. you know white people in nyc are overwhelmingly self-recognized liberals who are oftentimes seen in the wild congratulating themselves for their enlightened ways. so they can’t exhibit any bigotry. if someone has a problem, it’s all you “ethnics.””

    What’s your definition of white in this context? Does it include all the European immigrants – the Eastern Europeans (and there’s a lump) in Forest Hills, the Irish in Sunnyside and Woodside, the Greeks and Italians in Astoria, the Orthodox Jews who consider themselves citizens of Israel first and residents of NYC second?

    Quite a lot of them are not, in fact, liberal. Quite a lot of them are openly and unashamedly racist. “Whiteness” in terms of NYC always seems like a weird concept to me, since so many of us have very direct ties to our country/ies of origin. I have immediate family in the U.K., so finding out from others that I feel the same way as Italian-Americans (for example) is always a little bit of a shock, since our cultures are very different and I don’t identify that way at all. Whiteness is an American concept – and a lot of New Yorkers just aren’t culturally all that American yet (for whatever American means – but that’s another blog topic). I think the only “white” New Yorkers I know are people from other parts of the U.S. that have moved here – all the other “whites” I know are “Italian” or “German” or “Jewish” or “Irish”, etc.

    I understand (and share) the frustration behind your comment, but lumping white-skinned people together kind of sucks for those of us that have taken an active and loud anti-racist stance. And, as a “white” liberal New Yorker, I’m kind of surprised that you think we’re in the majority, because it certainly doesn’t feel that way from here. I can’t even begin to tell you how many frustrating conversations I’ve had with first-and second- generation (conservative) European-American New Yorkers that ultimately descend into “but I just don’t like black people, so I’m going to vote conservatively, because conservatives are people like me”.

    But yeah, TONY’s list is bunk, but I’ve never much cared for the magazine, because it does seem to cater to the white-liberal-but-all-my-friends-are-white crowd, which just isn’t my scene.