On Opposite Sides of the Immigration Debate

by Latoya Peterson

My friend Hae and I have been good friends for about four years. As an aesthete, Hae’s life tends to revolve around art and pop culture, both here and in Asia.* She is not a politically motivated person, so until we were sitting in traffic one day, I had no idea where her political beliefs fell.

The car in front of us had a bumper sticker that annoyed me, something that managed to convey support of erecting a border fence and insult Latinos in two short lines.

I sucked my teeth. When Hae asked why, I pointed out the sticker, and expressed how pissed I was at the sentiment. After all, in my opinion, the border fence is just an expensive (and ultimately ineffective) expression of ignorance. A porous border is not just a matter of physical obstacles. And tossing up a band-aid solution instead of identifying the other issues at play with immigration just seems like a waste of time. Not to mention the thinly veiled racism that often swirls around concerns about “illegals” invading the country.

“So, what, you support people coming over here illegally?” Hae asked me incredulously. She then launched into a mini-tirade about the overall unfairness of a system that would allow people to cross the border and in essence “skip the line” to immigrate to America. Since I can count on one hand the times I’ve seen Hae worked up about something, I was a bit taken aback by her strong feelings on the matter.

However, after further examination, I realized where we had experienced a bit of political disconnect.

We can chalk that up to different life experiences.

When I asked people on this blog how they came to their political beliefs, it was because I was interested in the thought process behind the decisions we make. Why do we think the way we do? How did we come to our conclusions?

With Hae and I, the answer was obvious. We had radically different life decisions that shaped where we fall in terms of the illegal immigration debate.

With me, when I think about immigration, I think about people like Ana, a woman I worked for when I was younger. Fleeing the civil war in El Salvador back in the 80s, Ana had left behind her country, her family, and her education to come to America. After arriving here with limited knowledge of English and no support group, she found herself also having to flee an abusive husband. When I met her, she was a working mother trying to find a path towards permanent citizenship. I am unsure of what her legal status was at that time. Ana took a lot of pride in the opportunities offered in America. She was self-sufficient, working under the table as a nanny for a rich white couple who threw a lot of dinner parties. (I, in turn, watched her children while she was watching their child.) She worked hard at mastering English and hoped to eventually go back to school and buy a home. She was always thankful to be here. When I think of immigration stories, I think of Ana.

For Hae, the debate around illegal immigration takes on a different tone. Having lived in America since she was six, Hae began the citizenship process about two years ago. [She became a citizen in August.] She remembers how long her family had to struggle and wait to be approved to come here, and how little they had when they began their lives here. She thinks of her friends, who are here on student or work visas and worry about deportation. She thinks of people she has known who have been deported. She also thinks of family abroad, who try to find every legal way possible to come over here, fighting through bureaucracy, red tape, and strict immigration controls and caps, still hoping to find themselves here one day. Her tone is filled with anger for those who would circumvent those policies. When Hae thinks about immigration, she thinks about her friends and family.

I share this because I want people to realize there really isn’t a strictly right or wrong answer in these debates. While there are definitely racist sentiments at work, not everyone who opposes illegal immigration does so out of xenophobia or out of fears of scarcity. So, while we tend to post pieces that tend to be more sympathetic toward arguments in favor of amnesty or a path to citizenship, it is important to remember that ultimately we are all invested in a working system.

We just may disagree about the best methods to achieve that end.

*I say Asia as Hae follows pop culture scenes in South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, and occassionally Taiwan.

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  1. The Immigrants « Angel and Tiggs.info on 30 Oct 2008 at 5:11 am

    [...] under: Law, Politics | Tags: debate, immigration, bureaucracy, racialicious Latoya Peterson at Racialicious wrote a thought-provoking post about the opposite sides of the immigration debate that gave me a [...]

Comments

  1. tj wrote:

    Its interesting to know that if I disagree with good, hardworking, patriotic people being in this country in a manner that is against its laws, I am a racist – even if a thinly veiled one. Interesting because I have yet to find someone who finds my views “racist” that would be willing to have me break into their house (against the law) and then take care of me to the tune of $30 average outgo for every $1 I bring into the household. The same folks who think I’m a racist would not want to pay for my adventure into their house. Liberals are always willing to have me spend my $$$ but when it comes to their giving – personally – they lag behind in donating and volunteering. I grew up with less in material goods than most of the poor today – for the most part, if we didn’t grow it we didn’t eat it. But I didn’t grow up with the idea that someone else should pay my way through life – that may sound good but it stifles personal motivation and initiative. Please don’t let your feeling of guilt lead to my prosecution as a racist. I don’t let personal feelings, racist thoughts, and guilt dominate what’s right. If you are not in this country legally – I don’t give a rip if you’re ET – you are illegal.

  2. jen* wrote:

    This is why I’m often of two minds on the immigration debate. One of my best friends just had her first child but she couldn’t get her mother here to be with her because the immigration officer didn’t believe that she’d go back home after her 3 months were up.

    My boss, and others I work with have wrestled long and hard with obtaining their citizenship because being a brown chemist apparently makes you suspicious.

    I’m not in favor of breaking up families, but it’s a pretty difficult situation when you consider how much easier it is to get and stay here illegally if you come from South America as opposed to Africa or Asia.

    I can see both sides, and I am further grateful that there but for the grace…

  3. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @TJ – Did you even read this whole piece?

  4. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Don’t you want to tell us exactly what the bumper sticker said?

    The studies on whether illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in services are all over the map. The actual ratio is probably a lot closer to 50-50 than it is to 30-1 (getting over giving).

    I’m a typical white guy who knows illegal immigrants only as the gardeners, maids, busboys, and day laborers whom I’ve met briefly. And yet I agree with Latoya and not Hae or TJ.

    Incidentally, the Caution sign featured in your graphic was created by a Navajo artist inspired by the infamous Long Walk. Read about it here:

    http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2008/10/two-eras-of-people-fleeing.html

  5. atlasien wrote:

    I used to teach ESL to adult immigrants. We all had extremely interesting discussion topics for English practice, but one of the most heated was about illegal immigration.

    A lot of the native American debate on immigration is inextricably wrapped up with racism. It’s impossible for me to respect nativist arguments because they’re so full of loathing for brown people. Now, I’m not saying that similar debates among immigrants never involve race… but you do get a much clearer perspective on some of the legal, moral and ethical nuances.

    Yes, the whole system is unfair, but most systems are…

    To illustrate one example: I was born in America but my father is not a citizen. When he decided recently he wanted his green card, he got it in record time, because he’s the citizen of a wealthy nation, knew how to get the right lawyer to file at the optimal processing center, and had a relative sponsor (me). Someone who had none of those advantages would have almost zero chance.

    There are also plenty of legal immigrants who are sympathetic to undocumented ones… it’s all over the spectrum, really.

    Personally, it’s hard for me to empathize with anger towards illegal immigration. What if I was in their shoes? I see it this way. I’m walking in search of something to eat when I get to an arbitrary line in the ground. On the other side of the line is a man with a pork chop dinner and a stick. He tells me he sort of wants me to step over the line and visit him. If I do, he’ll give me the pork chop, but he might also hit me with the stick. That’s a mixed message; ultimately, I’d probably step over the line.

    For me, the best argument against demonizing illegal immigration is that the contemporary globalized concept of national borders is completely unethical. Companies, money, capital, business, can easily cross borders; humans can’t. If you’re outraged at one particular immigrant who crossed illegally, you should be equally outraged at the flow of money that created the situation that encouraged them to cross illegally.

    Borders didn’t use to work this way. Hopefully, they will evolve into a better concept in the future.

  6. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Rob –

    I would, but this incident in the car happened about two years ago. I simply can’t remember the wording. I only remember what Hae said in response, and what we argued about.

  7. Celeste wrote:

    @atlasien: I’ m more upset at the economic conditions that cause illegal immigration than at illegal immgrants themselves. No one seems to hold those in the business community responsible for not paying a living wages that would attract more legal workers.
    Also, not many people are interested in paying more for food and goods in order to support a living wage for a legal workers. The prices we pay for food (not talking about WF) seem artifically low, at least until the recent economic downturn. It’s like we want something for nothing. We want great, safe, cheap food available all year but we don’t want to have to live around the people that make it possible. I’m not saying that lower-middle class people or poor people should suck it up and pay 5$ for arugala. However, I think if you can afford to, you should try to buy food that is produced in way that treats the workers fairly.

  8. Charlotte wrote:

    I’m dating a (former) illegal immigrant – from Ireland.

    I’m always kind of amazed at how easy it was for him to go legal and get a green card when he wanted to. The Irish Embassy received a certain amount and was handing them out first-come, first-served, so he went and got one. Easy peasy.

    When he was illegal and slipped a disc in his back, he flew home and had the surgery. Finding good paying work was never a problem for him as a big blue-eyed white guy, in a city with a huge Irish community.

    (He is not yet a citizen, but it’s his own inaction that’s stopping him, not anything else. The path would be easy.)

    I do know stories of illegal Irish emigrants being deported – but somehow, they’re never the ones that people are talking about or thinking about whenever illegal immigration comes up. Why is that? And why was his path to citizenship so much easier than so many other stories I know?

    (I think we all know, hey.)

  9. Korolev wrote:

    Children who have grown up in the USA, and have live all their lives in the USA, deserve to live there, even if they were brought over illegally.

    However, there is a problem here. Any sane individual recognizes that a nation has the right to control its borders. A completely open border (which the US does not have, although it is considerably lacking in security) is fairly disasterous for any nation not surrounded by sea.

    On one hand, we have an internationally recognized right for nations to control their borders. On the other hand, we have people who merely want a stab at prosperity and a better life for their kids, and people who grew up their whole lives in the USA, despite being “illegal”.

    I don’t agree with the concept of “skipping the line”. Many nations do not have lines for immigration, and thus, it is impossible for some people to enter the US legally, thus, illegal immigration is the only option for them (think of nations like North Korea, where if you even APPLY to leave, you’ll probably get a bullet in your head).

    So here’s the deal – don’t kick out people from the US, unless you can prove they are extremely recent arrivals. And if they want their children to stay in the US, let them. Second – improve border security, and I mean REALLY improve it. Thirdly – invest in Latin America to improve living conditions in those regions, so that people won’t want to come to the US in the first place.

    Here in Australia, we’ve had a huge blow up about immigration and border crossing. We’re surrounded by ocean, so we don’t get many illegal immigrants (it’s kinda hard to get here by means other than on a plane, we’re a long way from many nations except Indonesia).

    My family legally migrated. But I don’t call “illegal” immigrants “queue jumpers”. There isn’t exactly a queue in Vietnam or Afghanistan.

    An open border is bad, but you can’t just treat people as “aliens”. Their kids didn’t get a chance to decide whether or not to try to cross the border. Even if they are “illegals” they are still people.

    So – don’t pour efforts into throwing people out or lauching witch hunts against “illegal aliens”. Instead, a nation should commit itself to securing its border (with technology) and increasing the living conditions of it’s neighbours. Notice that many people fleeing to the US are from poor nations. Well, maybe if they were richer, you’d get less traffic.

  10. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Korolev –

    Excellent points. One of the things that Nezua touched on in his piece (should be above this one on the main page) is that everyone who is here illegally may not have asked to come here.

    We don’t often talk about human trafficking here, but that is a very real phenomenon. What do we do with people who may have been brought here against their will – and who may not be able to return home?

    The debate surrounding immigration really has layer upon layer of things to unpack.

  11. F wrote:

    I can see Hae’s point of view, having been an immigrant 3 in my life myself for a mixture of reasons – once where it was very difficult, and once where it was very easy, and once in between. If someone enters a country illegally simply because they’d prefer to live there or because they could make a better life for themselves when they could go through the legal process, that’s one thing. But I don’t think that’s an accurate picture of why most people immigrate illegally. Most people who are prepared to take the legal course to immigrate are probably not in as desperate circumstances. Individuals who have fled war or genocide and come to a country on fake passports, people who are willing to risk their lives in boats between Africa and Europe or walk across the desert, etc, their motivations and their ability to move legally is very different. It’s kind of like the difference between someone shoplifting food and someone buying it. Even if the latter is not wealthy, and struggles to buy food every week, in the majority of cases they’re not in a situation so desperate that they’d just steal it. I know not everyone is in an incredibly desperate situation, but in my experience (seeing deportation trials in the UK as a law student) many people just didn’t have a better choice or there is a tiny chance they would’ve been permitted to immigrate legally. Their experience is vastly different from anyone who, even though poor, is willing to go through the lengthy legal process in most cases.

  12. jen* wrote:

    atl – I really like your pork chop/stick metaphor. And you’re totally right about the arbitrary nature of who and what can cross which borders at what times – even the actual borders themselves are in question.

    Something that really bothers me is the apparent belief [among some] that having a form signed legitimizes one’s humanity. Without proper paperwork, a person can be treated as less than, with impunity.

    It’s a complicated issue, and while I don’t like the fact that it’s not fair, we must always err on the side of humanity.

  13. Frowner wrote:

    This is a really thought-provoking post! I tend to be very pro-immigration of all kinds and lump the different situations together in my head, so I hadn’t considered Hae’s point of view at all.

    But the thing that bothers me about restrictions on immigration, national border control and so on is this: capital and business can move anywhere with very few restrictions, especially after all the new international trade agreements. Business can race around seeking out the worst labor conditions and the cheapest workers really easily, and that’s always already a huge strike against good working conditions and labor organizing.

    So if capital can move everywhere, why can’t people? It’s not fair to restrict one but not the other, so unless we’re going to retrofit GATT and NAFTA (curses on them) then we ought to loosen up the borders.

    (Of course, even if people can in theory move to keep up with capital, it’s a lot harder for a person to move her whole life and leave her family and go to a new place than it is to move money around…capital moves fast; people move slow.)

  14. Renee wrote:

    @TJ
    Here is thing about your little argument. It completely neglects the fact that American foreign policy is largely responsible for creating the conditions that make people want to immigrate in the first place. People always complain about the cost of illegal immigration without factoring the cost of things like the the unfair trade agreements sponsored by the US that help promote global poverty. If you want to see less illegal immigration you need to stop profiting by fueling foreign wars and instituting unfair trade.

    I am sure that Americans are to used to profiting from their unfair advantages to bring an end to exploitation. This is case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

  15. h wrote:

    Thank you for this post — it’s absolutely a situation I see in my own life, as I’ve had the same experience as Latoya. I would love to see immigration reform that offers amnesty or some sort of path to permanent residency/citizenship, and I would love to see foreign policy that helps address the reasons why people choose to enter the US illegally.

    My, husband, on the other hand, has the same reaction as Hae. He’s originally from South America, we met in college when he was here on a student visa and later married, and he’s just received his 10-year greencard and is looking forward to being eligible for citizenship in a few more years. He is vehemently against illegal immigration, precisely because he feels that if he was able to do it legally, that anyone should be able to respect the laws and do it legally.

    (I think there are also some racial undertones here, for my husband at least, based on his country’s stereotypes and perceptions of Mexicans and Central Americans, who are usually the ones focused on in any news piece on illegal immigration. But I really think that’s secondary to that feeling of ‘well, if I could do it legally, so should everyone else’.)

    And I think here might be where it subtly turns into a class issue, rather than one of immigration, foreign policy, etc. In his country, he comes from an upper class family. Until the past decade or so, his country’s politics were dominated by people who looked like him and had the same background as him (aka white and of European descent). My husband was privileged enough to be able to attend college at a well-respected university in the US, and we both were fortunate enough to be in a position to be able understand his immigration options and to be able to afford all the necessary fees to make it happen. So he makes the assumption that since he could do it, that anyone should be able to… which is all well and good when you come from money and privilege, but when you aren’t that fortunate, when you’re poverty-stricken and just know that everyone says the US can be a place where life will be better for you… well, what option do you have?

    It’s made for some interesting conversations between us, as I had always assumed that he would at least be in favor of a more comprehensive, well-rounded immigration plan rather than a border fence. And it’s definitely given me pause when I think about that “other” side in the immigration debate, to make me stop lumping everyone in with the people who holler about illegal immigration but really are fueled by racism/xenophobia/etc.

  16. Lisa wrote:

    In a perfect world, there would be open borders – but that is a long way away.

    I’ve gotten used to cringing at all mention of “illegals” from my Euro-American family, as it’s the PC coda for “dirty Mexicans”.

    It’s not just poverty – largely created by US trade abuses – that Latin Americans are fleeing. It’s also pervasive violence resulting in part from the US “war on drugs”.

    Of course, it’s not *only* racism that motivates sentiment against illegal immigration. As an emigrant/immigrant myself, to China, I have been on both sides. Legal for nine years, early this year the rules suddenly changed, and I had to scramble to not be deported, working illegally for several months on a tourist visa while scrambling to get a new legal work visa.

    During that ordeal, I became very aware of all of my foreign acquaintences immigration statuses. I was shocked to find how many people nonchalantly reside and work illegally on tourist papers for years at a go, even during periods when work/business visas are very easily gotten. That rather angers me. But at least we will never get tossed in jail on sketchy charges like immigrants in the US are.

    Here in China we have an immigration microcosm in the form of the Hukou, or residence permits, designed to limit internal migration. The way they are enforced is completely cruel, but if they were lifted entirely the result would be chaos. It’s tricky.

    Anyhow, I like to remind my racist relatives that our ancestors on the Mayflower were the first illegal immigrants.

  17. Monie wrote:

    I am going to be honest, which may or may not be politically correct. First I am some what resentful of illegal immigrants. As an (African) American I am bound to follow U.S. law, if I don’t I will be held accountable. No one would sit around debating if I broke the law. I’d be arrested period.

    On the other hand as someone who lives in California and has a lot of contact with people who are not illegal but have close friends and family who are my feelings are more compassionate. I understand that many people who are here illegally have escaped extreme hardship, sometimes life threatening hardship.

    So this is one of those issues that I go back and forth on, as a concept I am against illegal immigration. As a reality I understand that sometimes it’s a matter of life or death.

    One more thing; I also have resentment because of how Haitian illegal immigrants are treated. No one seems to debate their fate. They are detained and then deported.

  18. Mireille wrote:

    If you look at the issue as only people coming here illegally, then yes, it’s easy to be strongly anti-illegal-immigration. However, the fact the NAFTA, and our economic relationship with Mexico in particular, drives farmers in Mexico out of business by flooding the market with cheaper US imports creates a situation that essentially forces many people to make a choice: legally starve to death or take a chance and break the law to make a better life for your family.

    Many Americans act as though we are innocent bystanders being molested without cause by all these illegals. Our own policies are part of the very root of the problem. Do you think people would leave their country, the people they know, the LANGUAGE they speak, to go somewhere they know they are unwanted, they know they have to hide and work under the table, in constant fear of arrest and deportation… if they had an opportunity at a decent livelihood at home?

    If we allowed the same sort of free flow of people as we do of money between borders… or the same restrictions… perhaps we wouldn’t have such a problem.

  19. bianca wrote:

    Thanks for this post and to all of those who have commented. I wonder if there was a shift that I may have missed in using the term “illegal” over “undocumented” in such discussions? I know for some this is “just vernacular” and a debate over terminology; yet just wondering if the term(s) are still used and embraced.

    As someone who has the privilege of being able to travel to my homeland and return to the US as I wish, it is a privilege that I have struggled with on numerous levels (and still do), especially growing up in a home that is in favor of Puerto Rican independence. Not to my knowledge has this been a topic that the pro-independence party addresses (yet). I often struggle with: Would I give up this privilege for independence and what would that mean and what would be my losses and benefits? How can I still position myself as someone who sees the problems with borders yet is so dedicated to creating one for Puerto Rico? It saddens me when the same anti-immigration rhetoric is used on the island to discuss West Indian immigration to the island.

    I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I’ll just offer this as food for thought and try to bring it full circle: Latoya had mentioned that human trafficking is not often discussed on the site. I think it is an interesting phenomenon that the terminology and resources offered to those who are identified as survivors of “human trafficking” is currently being applied to young women of Color in the judicial system (at least in NYC) who are found to be in similar situations as non-US citizens. Unfortunately, the folks who are using this approach have yet to (from what I have read, seen and heard) connect their use of the term “human trafficking” to the citizenship of young women of Color and how they are not provided with the same resources as those undocumented young women (social services v. incarceration), speaks specifically to how Black and Brown bodies are still seen as less than American citizens.

  20. Didi wrote:

    I can definitely see where Hae is coming from, I am an international student from Nigeria and the amount of nonsense we put up with just to get a visa is crazy. The people that work at the embassy sometimes deny your visa for no reason at all, the fees you pay are ridiculous. So it is kind of annoying when someone just comes here illegally and expects to have all sort of rights. That being said I truly believe that the American economy cannot survive without illegal immigration, an example is caregiving, my friend works in that industry and there are very few Americans working there (in the state I live in).

  21. Kaonashi wrote:

    Let me preface this comment by saying that I know people on both sides of the immigration issue.

    I’m of two minds about immigration issues; you have people escaping horrible economic and social situations who merely want to make a better life for themselves. Besides the “overstay my visiting visa” ruse, I know a lot of people who came over to study, didn’t find a job/someone to sponsor them after college and simply stayed. You have businesses big and small taking advantage of them, and too often people get deported while these individuals and business get a free pass at trying to get cheap labor. If we’re going to punish people, we should also go after businesses and individuals that exploit them with the same amount of zeal. I’m also convinced that INS gives certain individuals a harder time than others (mainly our neighbors to the south and certain Eastern European groups) and in its current state takes much longer for anything to be accomplished. ANY sort of immigration reform needs to start there, because its such a mess in its current state that I can see the temptation in just saying “Screw it, I’m just going to take my chances and see what happens.”

    I absolutely detest how Latinos are scapegoats in this issue (while other groups are apparently ignored) and the the Chicken Little “I don’t want to help you make the bread but I sure as hell will eat it” mentality I’ve personally observed in other groups; they don’t want to be visible or do anything for the immigration, but they sure as hell will be the first people in line to take advantage of any reforms! Personally, I find that very distasteful.

    While I can understand all of this and sympathize, you cannot ignore the fact that these people (regardless of how they got over here) are in this country ILLEGALLY, end of story, Then you have people who don’t want to be citizens but want to have all the benefits coming from citizenship and that just doesn’t fly. There are things that you are entitled to as a citizen of any country, and if you are not a citizen of that country you and your family don’t get these things.

    I’m also tired of hypocrisy from countries that want America to have open borders for everyone, yet keep their own borders (and immigration policies) shut drum-tight and bitch about immigration in their own countries. Open borders for everyone!

  22. ceecee wrote:

    I can see Hae’s point of view because I’m also in the same process myself. However, I fully see the racism and classism that comes into play with regards to the immigration process.

    The Washington Post did a series Careless Detention about people who have been detained. Also Edwige Danticat’s Brother I’d Dying. What I got from reading those stories are if you’re of non-european descent and not upper class you are S.O.L

    Washington Post Series – Careless Detention
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/immigration/index.html

    Brother I’m Dying – Edwige Danticat
    From Refugee to Supermodel – Alek Wek

    So Hae, it’s not about the process, a lot of people risked their lives to get here because that’s the only way they know how. You think you would be granted an audience if you walk into the U.S Embassy and tell them you want to leave the country because you have to eat sand since you can’t afford to buy rice?

  23. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @bianca –

    I wonder if there was a shift that I may have missed in using the term “illegal” over “undocumented” in such discussions?

    I prefer to use undocumented when talking about people specifically, legal/illegal when talking about the situation as whole. Other people’s uses may vary.

    I think it is an interesting phenomenon that the terminology and resources offered to those who are identified as survivors of “human trafficking” is currently being applied to young women of Color in the judicial system (at least in NYC) who are found to be in similar situations as non-US citizens.

    Can you elaborate on this?

    When I referred to human trafficking here, I meant anyone who was brought here against their will/under false pretenses, be it for sexual purposes, forced domestic labor, etc.

    @Monie –

    One more thing; I also have resentment because of how Haitian illegal immigrants are treated. No one seems to debate their fate. They are detained and then deported.

    Yes, exactly. That is one of the major issues that isn’t explored enough in these debates: which people are provided asylum on our shores, and which people are sent home? How do our relationships with other nations impact our immigration policies? And how does racism impact the idea of what new citizens will provide value to the US, versus a drain on resources?

  24. JLC wrote:

    Even as someone whose mother came here from Asia legally, I don’t quite understand the resentment here.

    First, people seem to think that illegal aliens get a free ride here. Being here illegally sucks–you live constantly in fear of being caught and you’re exposed to all kinds of exploitation and abuse. It’s infinitely more preferable to be a legal immigrant, so it’s not like people such as Hae aren’t being shorted. She enjoys benefits that illegal aliens can only dream of.

    Second, I would raise the possibility that given Mexico’s proximity to the US and the way in which our economy uses Mexico’s cheap labor, Mexicans are more entitled to come to the US than people from other nations.

    Third, it is false to think that illegal aliens have cut in front of the line. This implies that if there were fewer of them, legal aliens would have an easier time of coming here. Not true. Restrictions against, say, Asian immigration will stay the same irrespective of the flow of illegal immigrants.

    Bottom line: Illegal immigration is a red herring. The essential debate centers around Americans’ opposition to all immigration–especially of the brown variety. Fear of racial and cultural dilution–that’s what we have to deal with.

  25. Celeste wrote:

    @Kaonashi: I believe you’re referencing the Little Red Hen and not Chicken Little. Chicken little thought the sky was falling. The little red hen made the bread :)

  26. Celeste wrote:

    @Monie: They’re are probably still hating on the Haitians for freeing themselves from the French

  27. bianca wrote:

    @ Latoya

    Thanks for sharing your use of the terminology. I appreciate your distinction. I had thought this might have also been a geographic difference as well, as a majority of the conversations I’ve had about immigration have been on the east coast.

    Elaborating on the use of “human trafficking.” Again, I don’t want to derail the conversation, so I’ll try to bring full circle again.

    I learned about this use by my homegirl Ryan, who is working on her dissertation about how race intersects with young women who engage in street prostitution and how they are treated. I’ve helped edit several chapters of her dissertation over the years and we have attended several conferences and speeches about the topic. It is through her that I was exposed and continue to have the conversations.

    The specific group I was referring to is GEMS (Girls Educational & Mentoring Services) in NYC. Ryan and I have heard the senior staff (and some youth) speak at numerous times. One of the last times I heard senior staff speak was in November 2007 and they discussed how young women of Color in NYC who were picked up for street prostitution were immediately incarcerated in a juvenile detention facility. She proceeded to discuss the Safe Harbor Act (http://actioncenter.polarisproject.org/take-action/advocate-for-policy/227)

    At another presentation, when I was not present, Ryan shared a scenario that senior staff gave. They offered what they called a “case study.” I remember fragments of the case study as Ryan has used it as an example in some of her work. If someone from GEMS or Ryan chooses to comment (and I’ve asked her) I’m sure they can fill in anything I’ve missed. Here’s what I recall the case study to be, again not exact wording, but by the end hopefully you will understand their goal:

    “Natasha” is a 15-year-old girl from the Ukraine. She was taken from her home and sent to the US with no identification or documents. She had no way to communicate with her family, was put in a dark room with limited food, water, bathroom usage and forced to perform sexual acts with adult men. She was threatened that if she did not comply she and her family would be shot and killed. She is later found alive in a brothel in Queens by the police and provided with food, water, shelter, and an interpreter and given additional resources provided through the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.

    “LaShay” is a 15-year-old girl from Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. She was kidnapped from her neighborhood and taken to an unknown location where she was stripped of her school id, her only form of identification. She had no way to communicate with her grandmother, who had taken care of her since birth. She had rarely been out of her community except for the handful of supervised school field trips to Manhattan museums. She was put in a dark room with limited food, water, and bathroom usage and forced to perform sexual acts with adult men. She was threatened that if she did not comply she and her grandmother would be shot and killed. She is later found alive in a brothel in Queens by the police and arrested and sent to a juvenile detention facility as she awaited her trial.

    GEMS is attempting to expand the definition of “human trafficking” so that it can too apply to Black and Brown girls in NYC (and possibly the entire US). They are using your understanding of “human trafficking”: “anyone who was brought here against their will/under false pretenses, be it for sexual purposes, forced domestic labor, etc.”

    Ryan and I agreed it was a clever attempt to work within the system. Yet we do have reservations about the “case studies” (picking a name to invoke a racial and cultural identification that is not mentioned) and how their efforts do not yet address how young girls of Color are picked up for street prostitution at higher numbers than young White girls, thus more girls of Color treated as criminals. In addition, it only addresses young women who are found in such situations and not young women found in other situations. Then again GEMS has a very specific goal. At the same time, no discussion of how Brown and Black girls are not given the same treatment as non-US citizens, who in this scenario, are treated better than the US citizens. The conversations I’ve heard about these scenarios omits the racial classification and cultural identity of the non-White young women. I have yet to see their film “Very Young Girls” which was at the International Latino Film Festival this summer and will premiere on Showtime sometime in December (I don’t have cable). Perhaps they have since added this missing component.

    At the same time I understand they are working within a system and perhaps a race neutral approach is their best bet to get a few advancements.

    Sorry this was so long, it didn’t look that long as I was typing.

  28. jaye wrote:

    On a practical level, something has to be done about undocumented workers…it is difficult to have a functioning society with so many people flying under the radar, and the immigration system needs to be overhauled and become more equitable.

    But on a more philosophical note, I am amazed when people like Lou Dobbs talk about the ‘rule of law’ and about people being here illegally. I usually think…excuse me, how the hell did YOU get to be living here…cuz I’m pretty sure you’re originally from Europe. I think there were a lot of laws regarding treaties and such, that were all simply dismissed and thrown out when it was inconvenient for the colonizers of the U.S., and now you want to judge other people for breaking laws, for coming into YOUR country? I don’t see the right wing criticizing their ancestors for invading someone else’s country…they’re basically doing what the Mexicans are doing now, going where the resources and opportunities are, not really giving a damn what the people already there think. The forefathers of Dobbs did that and called it ‘discovering’ and ‘exploring’…now they want to criticize others for doing the same thing and wanting the same opportunities?

  29. Jodie wrote:

    “She then launched into a mini-tirade about the overall unfairness of a system that would allow people to cross the border and in essence “skip the line” to immigrate to America. ”

    The idea of there being ‘a line to get in’ and as long as you follow the rules you will be granted citizenship is rarely the case for most people. This graphic explains the limited nature of the line.

    http://www.reason.com/images/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

  30. John Jihoon Chang wrote:

    A few thoughts from someone who has previously worked in immigration law:

    1) The actual legal terminology used to describe an “illegal” or “undocumented” alien is actually “unlawfully present”.

    2) While South/Central American and persons from the Caribbean are usually focused on when people think of unlawfully present, I’ve encountered all sorts of people that are unlawfully present, not limited to national origin, race or class.

    3) In addition to unlawful presence, to work in the US while unlawfully present (thus, unlawful employment) results in both the alien and the businesses involved committing fraud. Not saying that those that are unlawfully present should be deported, but that a side effect of unlawful presence is a larger amount of criminal activity, including fraudulent documentation, a black market for fraudulent documentation that often preys upon the unlawfully present and exploitation of unlawfully present aliens.

    After sitting around immigration for three years (two in law and one at a non-profit), I personally have come to the conclusion that we do need to work on preventing people from coming to the US unlawfully, because it’s detrimental to society as a whole–on the other hand, I do advocate making highways where there are roads, creating greater opportunities for renewable short-term or medium-term nonimmigrant visas, expanding the availability of immigrant visas and generally making coming to the US lawfully easier. That would be much better for businesses here, for those who would come to the US and for those already in the US.

  31. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Some information about illegal immigration:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

    Residing in the United States in violation of immigration law is not a crime but a civil infraction. Various other unlawful immigration-related acts, depending on the circumstances, may be criminal and/or civil offenses. For example, forging immigration documents is a crime, while Illegal entry by eluding immigration officials is a misdemeanor.

    A paper in the peer reviewed Tax Lawyer journal from the American Bar Association asserts that undocumented immigrants contribute more in taxes than they cost in social services. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reviewed 29 reports published over 15 years to evaluate the impact of unauthorized immigrants on the budgets of state and local governments, and found that the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, but that the amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions.

  32. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

    According to a 1998 article in The National Academies Press, “many [previous studies] represented not science but advocacy from both sides of the immigration debate…often offered an incomplete accounting of either the full list of taxpayer costs and benefits by ignoring some programs and taxes while including others,” and that “the conceptual foundation of this research was rarely explicitly stated, offering opportunities to tilt the research toward the desired result.” One survey conducted in the 1980s (before the current wave of illegal immigration) found that 76 percent of economists felt recent illegal immigration had had a positive effect on the economy.

    Aviva Chomsky, a professor at Salem State College, states that “Early studies in California and in the Southwest and in the Southeast…have come to the same conclusions. Immigrants, documented and undocumented, are more likely to pay taxes than they are to use public services. Illegal immigrants aren’t eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities. Households headed by undocumented immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of.”

  33. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=9317510

    The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration is a 1997 study on the demographic, economic, and fiscal consequences of immigration to the United States by the National Research Council (NRC) of the National Academy of Sciences. The NRC report found that although immigrants, especially those from Latin America, were a net cost in terms of taxes paid versus social services received, overall immigration was a net economic gain due to an increase in pay for higher-skilled workers, lower prices for goods and services produced by immigrant labor, and more efficiency and lower wages for some owners of capital. The report also notes that although immigrant workers compete with domestic workers for some low skilled jobs, some immigrants specialize in activities that otherwise would not exist in an area, and thus are performing services that otherwise would not exist, and thus can be beneficial for all domestic residents.

  34. Slush wrote:

    I second JLC – while the line-skipping analogy is nicely accessible, it’s grossly inaccurate. People who come here illegally have no legal rights: they can’t travel because they don’t have ID, they get exploited by employers and have no means of redress, they can’t even get police protection because of their status.

    People who wait in line get protection of the law, and freedom of movement in the country. Yes, the bureaucracy of it is absolutely miserable. And very racist. And classist. And inscrutable to the average citizen just trying to get somewhere. But it certainly entails real benefits that are not conferred on people who enter without papers.

    And, again as JLC observed, the presence of undocumented immigrants does not affect the waiting process for visas through the immigration bureaucracy. So it’s not like people sneaking across the border really have anything at all to do with people applying at the consulate.

    All that said, I think it’s a misnomer to suggest that people who come here illegally are all desperate refugees. Even a lot of asylum seekers come on temporary visas or forged papers, rather than sneak across the border, while your average migrant laborer is probably not a refugee, but is just someone who has come seeking a better life. That’s why people have come to this country for centuries.

  35. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    I wonder how often complaints about illegal immigrants are proxies for complaints about brown-skinned people? 50% of the time? More?

    For those of you who have qualms about illegal immigration–e.g., TJ–I trust you’re not racists. But what about your fellow travelers in the anti-immigration movement? What percent of the people who share your views are implicitly or explicitly racist?

    This discussion reminds me of Nicholas Kristof’s column about “aversive racism” (http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2008/10/anti-indian-racism-explained.html). For instance, he writes:

    “For decades, experiments have shown that even many whites who earnestly believe in equal rights will recommend hiring a white job candidate more often than a person with identical credentials who is black. In the experiments, the applicant’s folder sometimes presents the person as white, sometimes as black, but everything else is the same. The white person thinks that he or she is selecting on the basis of nonracial factors like experience.”

    This is highly relevant to the illegal immigration debate. Why is it that people attack illegal immigrants from Latin America but not from Asia, Europe, Canada, and elsewhere? Could it be the unconscious racism of people who believe they’re only “upholding the law”?

  36. Cara wrote:

    See, I don’t get Hae’s point of view at all. Though I can’t say that I’ve been through what she has been through, my husband and I have gone through the immigration process in order for him to be here. And though I was pro-immigrant before all that, the process has only cemented my view. People act like it’s super easy to do, just fill out some forms, pay a really small fee and bam, you’re in. It’s not. It’s a hellish process. Which made me realize “wow, if it’s this tough for two people of relatively quite high privilege, imagine what it must be like for people who can barely feed their family.”

    I can’t say I’ve walked in Hae’s shoes, but I do think that her anger is misdirected. It seems that she ought to be angry at the system which has made her, her friends and her family suffer and not at the people who simply don’t have the means to deal with it. I’m sorry, I just do NOT understand the “well I suffered, so everyone else has to as well” point of view. I don’t want people to go through what my husband I have gone through. I want no one to ever go through that again. And I want that knowing full well that many other people have it much, much worse, and wanting them same for them.

  37. Chris wrote:

    My son is a legal immigrant from Guatemala. Because my husband and I adopted him as an infant, he had an extremely easy path for his immigration (what he will feel about being taken from his birth country later, I don’t know). It really tears me up to know that our white privilege and economic situation allowed us to bring him here while the members of his first family have virtually no chance of ever getting to the US (should they want to). On the other hand, I feel a certain amount of glee that we have brought one more Latino into the US when so many people are trying to keep them out!

  38. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @bianca – Thank you. I will probably ask you more about this offline. This is fascinating.

    @John Jihoon Chang – Now I’m interested in your life story. What else have you managed to do? Thanks for offering a legal perspective.

    @Rob Schmidt- Lots of excellent info here Rob. Thanks.

    @Cara –

    Hae is but one of the friends that I’ve found myself on different sides with. Another friend I have is a social worker and she starts going off when we start talking about undocumented people. In her opinion, it wounds the communities who are sorely lacking in needed services (though much of the evidence Rob uncovered above doesn’t show a link to draining resources.)

    Also, in something I will explore a bit more in posts later, just because two people could have similar experiences, it doesn’t mean they can’t come to drastically different conclusions . I know a lot of people who had similar background to my own, and ended up conservatives. Again, much is left to interpretation.

    @Chris – Your last line wrenched a full belly laugh from me. Thanks.

  39. gatamala wrote:

    If you’re outraged at one particular immigrant who crossed illegally, you should be equally outraged at the flow of money that created the situation that encouraged them to cross illegally.

    Thank you.

    Folks come because they are hungry,

    we need them here to perform certain tasks at a rate that maintains acceptable profit margins for the companies (not just multinationals) and charges rates acceptable to us

    Charlotte~ yep!!

    Korolev~I am at peace with the statecraft concept of borders. I am also at peace with the eventual flow of people, goods and ideas. Frankly, if other nations shared our border it would be the same damn thing. I find some of the high-handed arguments insane. Who here is from a family that would have waited in a line abroad but for the bribe that they were able to offer the right official??? Who here is from a family that damn sure would have bribed someone if they could afford to???

    F~good point. The folks I knew in a former life were hungry.

    Bianca Not to my knowledge has this been a topic that the pro-independence party addresses (yet). I often struggle with: Would I give up this privilege for independence and what would that mean and what would be my losses and benefits?

    Very germane point. I suspect that the referenda (other influences notwithstanding) reflect this practical reality. Lose the [albeit weaker] dollar and then what? Thanks for the realism you brought into human trafficking too.

    an example is caregiving, my friend works in that industry and there are very few Americans working there (in the state I live in).

    I worked in the staffing industry. Those jobs were formerly occupied by AfAms. They didn’t pay enough to support their families. Definitely not a case of “THEY [black folk] don’t want [!]them” or “THEY [latin folk] are taking [!] our jobs”. Interesting how the folks that are ranting and raving about the “free market” don’t understand dick about it.

    Kaonashi~Then you have people who don’t want to be citizens but want to have all the benefits coming from citizenship and that just doesn’t fly.

    In Warshington, those are the affluent expats working for American companies!! They’re culture includes [IMHO] deriding illegal immigrants AND American citizens. And you know, and have stated, that illegal immigration is not the end – nor the beginning- of the story.

    Northward migration from central Mexico (in particular since this is what the euphemisms are about) has been going since before The Border. The US policy (especially vis a vis Mexico) is an escape valve. Best believe it is not in this nation’s interest to have one of its largest business partners go under due to poltical instability.

    Someone mentioned the shift between “illegal” and “undocumented”. I’ve noticed that the “illegal” descriptor is enthusiastically used by some immigrants (who “stood in line”) as a way to place themselves above others. Just another level in the American caste system. “Sure I eat X food, speak X language, am X color, wear X clothes…but my family were hard-working [here we go] immigrants that came here legally….” But their family’s role in the situation that led to the illegal entry of others? Nary a word.

    I wish folks would step back from their moralism (on all sides) and look at the practical consequences. There ARE some municipalities who ARE suffering a drain on social service resoures. But…If Iceberg lettuce (fuck arugula) were $6 a head, we’d have a lot of “hardworking middle class family folks” descending into malnutrition.

  40. tanglad wrote:

    As someone who is still going through the long citizenship process, I have met and understand people why people would hold the same mistaken notion as Hae.

    Some would-be immigrants are deemed “worthy” for one reason or another. It saddens me that many in this group end up demonizing other immigrants for fear they they, as “legal immigrants,” will somehow lose their privileges. The immigration system is broken, and it won’t be fixed if all you care about is ensuring that you continue receiving your crumbs. Our concerns must go beyond ourselves and our worlds.

  41. oterhog wrote:

    @ Bianca–” I wonder if there was a shift that I may have missed in using the term “illegal” over “undocumented” in such discussions?

    I noticed this in the comments too. I think people need to be careful and intentional with the language they use surrounding this issue. When people use the term “illegal immigration”, even if they think it’s “just vernacular” they are buying into the idea (consciously or not) that undocumented immigration (migrating to a country without permission from its government) is a criminal act. Is it a criminal act to try to escape poverty?

    @Latoya–”I want people to realize there really isn’t a strictly right or wrong answer in these debates.”

    I disagree. I think the right answer is to decriminalize “illegal” immigration, and an important first step in this process is to change the discourse about immigration. The dominant discourse about undocumented immigration includes the idea that somehow, “illegal immigrants” aren’t human and don’t deserve an identity other than “illegal”. We need to stop talking about whether it’s fair or not and we need to start talking about the structural and social issues that force people to migrate in the first place. We need to talk about immigrants as human beings first and foremost, and we need to support them in their struggle to survive.

    I think the wrong answer is to assume that undocumented immigrants are “skipping to the front of the line” by coming here before they get their papers. Crossing the hot desert dehydrated and not knowing when you’ll get at some water to drink, putting your life in the hands of a greedy coyote who may decide to rape you or your mother before he delivers you to your family and friends, paying thousands of dollars on the chance that you might get across the border without La Migra getting you again is no piece of cake. Believe me, if there was a way for poor Mexicans to migrate “legally”, they’d be doing it already. The problem is that it’s nearly impossible to get the papers to migrate “legally”.

    I’m so tired of people discussing immigration in terms of fairness, as if everyone is on an even playing field to begin with.

  42. Bee wrote:

    Hae is a rare exception among legal immigrants. I am a legal immigrant and like most of us we sympatize with undocumented immigrnats. There is no line for them like there is for us. There is no legal possible way for them to come here. The legal immigration system is a mess and is the main reason why we have undocumented immigration. Most immigrants realize that after one call to USCIS.

  43. kyledeb wrote:

    It’s good to see a very rational discussion of migration taking place. There’s a group of us pro-migrant bloggers that do a lot of work on this issue. At some point you just get tired of hearing the same points over and over again. Sure everyone has different reasons for believing Hae’s viewpoints, but so many of the concepts that people with “anti-illegal immigrant” views have are so flawed.

    For instance, this whole concept of legal/illegal immigration. It’s a completely manufactured one that has just cropped up this century. Before 20th century, there was no such thing as being legal/illegal. You came to the U.S. as an immigrant and that was that. There’s a reason “illegal” migrants exist today. It’s been completely manufactured and functions to create a class of people that is easily exploitable and easily scapegoated.

    It sounds to me like Hae mentioned some version of a “get in line” argument. There is no line. U.S. immigration law is a mess and there is no one line that anyone can get in the back of. Just to get an idea of how complicated U.S. immigration law is, check out this reason.org chart, which is a vastly simplified version of how it works.

    If you check it carefully, you’ll notice that if you are an unskilled worker with no family in the U.S., there is just no legal way for you to get in the U.S. Again, there is no line for someone in rural Guatemala, or the slums of Mexico. A lot of nativists argue that they don’t want that sort of person in the U.S., but does that jibe with U.S. values and the U.S.’s history of immigration. We all know the Emma Lazarus poem, “Give me your tired, your poor, / Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”

    These misconceptions go on and on. A big part of what we try to do in the pro-migrant sanctuarysphere is educated people, but the truth is the people pushing these flawed concepts are not interested in logic. The U.S. migration debate is not a debate about policy, it’s a culture war. It’s a debate about what fundamental question of what it means to be an “American.” Certainly, not everyone who is against “illegal immigration” is racist, but when was it ever any good to define whether or not a person was a racist? What we have to define is whether an action, or a policy position, is racist or nativist.

    The bottom line is that people who put out arguments like the ones above, are in effect, taking a racist/nativist position. Perhaps it’s not always effective to call it that, but if it weren’t true, than why is it that every “anti-illegal immigration” organization that is quoted in the papers, is against legal immigration too, and often has ties to racism and white supremacy.

    Sure someone like Hae is not connected to these groups, but is she calling out the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or the Center for Immigration Studies, for their hate.

    I mean the most reasonable policy proposal of people in the “anti-illegal immigration” camp right now is something they call “attrition through enforcement”. They know they can’t deport 12 million people, so instead they decided to best solution is to make millions of unauthorized migrants so miserable that they leave on their own. By separating their families, by putting them in detention centers, by deputizing local police to enforce federal immigration law, they hope to make unauthorized migrants so terrified that places they’ve fled from look like paradise.

    That is in effect, what is happening now. If you’re not sickened by it and standing against it, and you’re not nativist or racist, then I don’t know where your sense of justice is. All most unauthorized migrants want to do is work hard and get ahead.

    That doesn’t mean that the U.S. has to have open borders. It just means that borders have to stop being the primary guarantor of rights in the world. Allowing the arbitrary lines people are born into to define their existence is the greatest source of inequality in the world today.

  44. Tina wrote:

    Kyle brings up 2 key points:
    1. That a lot of the points of debate over immigration are based on misconceptions. Like that there is a line, that borders define rights, that immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy, etc.
    2. That “illegal” is a modern fabrication. Status in the US is transitory: someone can come legally and fall out of status, or someone can enter without documents and change their status over time. U.S. Immigration laws are so complex that there is not one universal distinction between legal or illegal. “Illegal” has been used all too often in these debates as if it were a permanent character trait – and that is where the thinly veiled racism comes in, because people speak of illegals as if they are a separate class of human being.

  45. kyledeb wrote:

    excellent point, Tina. The word “illegal” should not define another class of human being.

  46. MdeG wrote:

    Wow! This discussion is wonderful. It is so rare to find a place where people are talking about the real issues and making points respectfully. I don’t want to stop reading!

    Here is my favorite there-is-no-line case. I have family in El Salvador. It is very hard for working-age Salvadorans to get tourist visas for the US, and minors with parents here cannot even be interviewed. This gets tough, because a lot of the folks in the US are on Temporary Protected Status & can’t travel without special permission.

    In El Salvador, a day’s pay for a laborer might be $7, maybe a bit less. Housemaids get paid 1.50 plus room & board. The fee for a tourist visa application is something like 115. In order to get a tourist visa, they ask you to supply: Proof of employment (half of all employment is in the informal sector), lease or papers for your house; bank statements (don’t know what proportion of people can do these 2 things); car papers (15-20% of households own cars); criminal background check. Even a family visit becomes nearly impossible under these conditions, even when there’s someone in the US who’s paying the costs. When has this happened to a North American trying to visit a neighboring country?

    We recently petitioned for 2 relatives from El Salvador, so I know a little what that process was like. Only took 2-3 years, only cost a couple thousand dollars per person. Fpr people who don’t have someone in the US to petition for them and pay the fees, the cost is pretty insurmountable — and nobody will lend it to you, because your chances of success are so small. You can borrow money for a coyote to bring you here without papers, because you have decent odds of arriving alive. If you apply for a legal immigrant visa, you’re competing for one of 5000 slots for all unskilled immigrants from all over the world. Your chances are way under 1%.

    One detail that stuck out was the medical exam. There is a very short list of docs authorized to do this. I’m told by family members that an appointment w/ a fancy specialist in the capital runs around $40. The immigration exam was more like $300-400 per person. I can totally see the point of checking for contagious disease before people immigrate — but the cost of the exam alone is a disincentive. And you can’t tell me that no money changed hands when people were put on that short list of doctors.

    Our system is horrible, we need to focus on changing it.

  47. NewCitizen wrote:

    Great post. I want to add my two cents.

    I just became a US citizen (literally two weeks ago). I moved here in 1990 from a rapidly deteriorating West African country. Shortly after we arrived, a civil war broke out that lasted for the better part of the decade. Because my brother and I left in a hurry, we came with tourist visas that were originally issued for a year. At the airport, the validity of our visas was cut to six months. I was 15, he was 18. We would probably not have been issued visas if our parents had said they feared for our lives and safety and wanted to send us to a safer place. In 1998, our mother came over to join us.

    I won’t bore anyone with the details of how hard it was for me to naturalize. But do the math: we arrived in 1990, I finally naturalized in 2008. My brother still has a deportation order hanging over his head. He’s married and has an American wife and seven-year-old daughter. My mother was able to get political asylum because she’s European [read White]. Her house was looted several times and she was very nearly killed on one of those occasions. As a European person, our mom qualified for political asylum because her lawyers were able to argue that she experienced persecution on the basis of her race—the majority of people who live in the country we left are Black.

    I bring this up not so much to argue about whether or not “illegals” should or shouldn’t be in the US. I only want to support those people who point out—rightly—that many people have no choice but to enter the country “illegally.” I also want to illustrate the racial bias in our immigration system: when the “international community” was evacuating people from our wartorn country, they took all Europeans, Canadians, Australians, etc. But Africans from other countries were not evacuated, even though they were foreigners too. When our mom arrived in the US, she qualified for political asylum on the grounds that she was persecuted because she’s White. My dad, who is African, could not have qualified on the same grounds because the people doing the persecuting had the same skin color as him. My brother and I—despite being several shades lighter than the people who had nearly killed our mom—also did not qualify for asylum because in the US, we are considered Black (we know because we both talked to our lawyers about applying on the same grounds as our White mother). Finally, I want to point out that there are pretty much only two ways to become a citizen once you are already in the US: through marriage or employer sponsorship (also called a work visa).

    The US makes it easy for people to get in without proper documentation but makes it virtually impossible for those people to “normalize” their status once they are already in the country.

  48. Bagelsan wrote:

    Status in the US is transitory: someone can come legally and fall out of status, or someone can enter without documents and change their status over time. U.S. Immigration laws are so complex that there is not one universal distinction between legal or illegal.

    Absolutely! I did a research internship this summer, and one of the other students there is from Hong Kong (where both her parents live) but has attended school in the US for the last 4 years. At one point her driver’s license expired, or there was a problem with her paycheck going through, or something (not entirely sure), and for about a week she wasn’t 100% sure if she was still technically allowed to be in the US. (Nothing came of it, thank goodness.)

    Similarly, my friend’s roommate is an exchange student from Ukraine. She is absolutely legal …UNLESS she makes money. She had to turn down a 2-hour babysitting gig from a professor last year because she’s not allowed to declare income or something, and she was too scared to take the $20 under the table and risk getting deported. Bizarre. Something’s wrong with a system where a few bucks for babysitting could get you permanently *removed from the country*.

  49. jvansteppes wrote:

    One of Rob’s points reminds me of the fact that if this weren’t about race, my white Canadian friends who stay illegally in the United States might actually have problems. Lots of white Canadians and Americans end up on the other side of the border without the legal right to be there, yet they are rarely referenced in conversations about the perils of undocumented villains. Usually because their whiteness is assumed to make them middle class [though this obviously is another misconception about whiteness] and white Americans don’t see them as threatening the racial borders they cling to.

    And I hate the word ‘illegal’ being applied to humans as if they were objects. No one is illegal.

  50. John Jihoon Chang wrote:

    A clarification on NewCitizen’s statement: “Finally, I want to point out that there are pretty much only two ways to become a citizen once you are already in the US: through marriage or employer sponsorship (also called a work visa).”

    Naturalization and a green card are two separate processes. The first step is getting your green card, which is basically establishing yourself as a permanent resident alien in the US. This is the big ticket that pretty much grants most of the protections and rights of a citizen, but not all. Most notably, green card holders may stay in the US indefinitely and can move and change jobs at will.

    There are 3 main routes to achieving a green card: 1) Via work–the US provides a limited number of immigrant visas per year per country of origin, typically even in number. Should the employer want to support an immigrant visa for their currently nonimmigrant employee, they need to first obtain proof from the US Department of Labor that the employee is providing skills and talents not readily available for the company from the existent permanent US workforce (US citizens and permanent resident aliens). This step is waived for many classes of employee, but the most common, skilled worker, does have to undergo this step. (Classes that can skip this step include multi-national managers, persons with outstanding backgrounds, some types of religious professions, etc.) Once they have that proof (which can vary in required time), the immigrant visa applicant is screen for non-admissible traits and then, following an interview, granted permanent residence. This type of visa is typically issued to skilled workers, but there are multiple classes of these visas available to different categories of workers as well, each with a limited number of visas, although the available visas did spill over before–although the laws on whether or not unused visas could spill over does change with rather stunning frequency.

    2) Via family petition: The US maintains a policy of favoring families over those that are not family. There are a limited number of visas issued for various categories of family, from immediate to siblings, etc. Any US permanent resident or citizen may sponsor an immigrant visa petition for anyone directly related to them (cousins are too distant). For spouses and minor children, these are the fastest and easiest ways to be granted permanent resident status. All other categories of immediate relatives may range in time due to backlogs of applicants and limited visas. Obviously, some countries of origins have it particularly bad, since the visas are issued statically to countries rather than based on the population of the country of origin. Thus, China, India, Mexico and a few other countries have very long backlogs and these are the “lines” that a lot of people talk about. Some of the backlogs date back to the 80’s. The list of available family petition immigrant visas is readily available on the Department of State website. Once granted a visa, the steps following mirror the employment based visa, although spouses are a special condition as they have to prove the validity of their marriage.

    3) Yes, there is a third road to a green card and that is the visa lottery. Each year a small number of visas (compared to the other two) is allotted to countries that are often underrepresented in the US immigrant populations. It’s also called the “diversity visa lottery”. Applicants sign up for the visa and if they win, they just need to be screened by the DoS and can come to the US on an immigrant visa. Lottery winners are picked randomly from eligible entries.

    Citizenship (or naturalization) is available to ALL permanent residents after a set amount of continuous residence in the US, usually 5 years for those applying on their own accord and 3 years for those applying through a spouse. Applicants for naturalization are further screened and are subjected to a 100 question exam covering US history and government, selected from 200 total questions (all of these questions and answers are available on the USCIS website). There are a few classes of applicants that get to skip the exam, including the chronically ill, minor children of naturalization applicants, etc. Then they are awarded a certificate of naturalization either on the spot or at a ceremony. Those that fail screening are usually ineligible for naturalization and some (if they have committed criminal activities) may actually be stripped of permanent residence and be subsequently deported. If you fail the exam, you may reapply after a year.

    *Please note that none of this should be construed as legal advice as I have not completed law school or passed the board for practice of immigration law. Information pertaining to immigration regulations can be found on the US Citizenship and Immigration Services and US Department of State websites. Some of my information might have changed as my career as a paralegal ended in 2006 and laws and regulations might have changed since then.

  51. Melissa wrote:

    The subject of illegal immigration is a complex one that has no right answer. Yes, these people are here illegally but many are working hard in jobs that legal citizens won’t do for the price the employer wants to pay. How much of our food is picked, grown or processed by illegal immigrants? Are we willing to pay more for that food to ensure that only legal citizens of this country are employed or does are desire for more stuff, cheaper outweigh providing conditions that someone who isn’t forced to take whatever work they can get will work under? I’m not saying it’s good to do this, but if a person is in this country illegally, who are they to complain to if they experience poor working conditions or low pay?

    There are illegal immigrants who work very hard, pay taxes, even own businesses. Why wouldn’t we want hard working individuals who want to be in this country so much they are taking a risk to come here? What is preventing them from coming here? What about the people who are trying to escape persecution who aren’t allowed in legally? It takes a long time to get citizenship here. There is no easy answer on what to do. I wonder what would happen to this country, though, if every single person in this country who was here illegally were deported? How many things wouldn’t function? Obviously, there is work and space for these people so why are some so against letting them in?

  52. Dave Bennion wrote:

    This thread rocks. I’ve never seen anything like it.

  53. Kaonashi wrote:

    Celeste: I knew it was something in the fowl family! ^_^

    These are some really good points being made here. As much as I sympathize, I’m looking at this purely from a legal standpoint. The fact remains that people KNOW that they are breaking the law when they do this, and the sense of entitlement some of these folks have is unreal (to say the least) and I can’t deny that it doesn’t make me angry at times. If you’re coming to a country to create a better life for yourself and your family, wouldn’t it be better to not break our laws right off the bat?

    Then I look at the hypocrisy involved with other countries wanting America to relax our borders while keeping their own immigration/work visa policies as strict as possible. There are a LOT of countries that I would absolutely love to work in but can’t due to their laws, and the U.S. is exempted from the “work holiday” so many other countries enjoy.

    With all of that being said, we need to fix the system first and punish companies and individuals who take advantage of these people, because that is the major incentive to coming here in the first place. Stop having two different pay scales for people who are legal and people who are not. They are doing the same work, and should be paid accordingly. Above all, get rid of racial bias in our immigration system and stop targeting certain groups for raids and deportations while giving the others a free pass.

  54. Slush wrote:

    The problem with illegal immigration is that it is described as illegal, which to most people (including ICE!) seems to mean criminal. But these terms are not the same thing at all. Failure to follow immigration law is not a crime, it is a civil violation (unless it was in fact breaking a criminal law, which does complicate things).

    The difference between a civil violation and criminal violation, in general , is that one requires you to pay a fine, or enact other reparations for your violation, whereas criminal law imposes criminal penalties and jail – although this is a very crude distinction because there is a lot of overlap. Another main difference is whether the legal processes involved go through a federal or state penal system, or through a civil agency. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that after 9/11 when DHS was created, it separated the former INS into stricter divisions of immigration services (CIS for affirmative applications for visas and status changes) and enforcement division (ICE and CBP for border protection and deportation) and so the enforcement folks turned from part of a larger civil agency into an almost purely law enforcement agency.

    That’s where immigration has gotten really fucked up because we now treat civil offenders as criminals. And popular media talks about them as criminals, as if a civil immigration violation makes you a serial offender. We put undocumented immigrants in jail before we deport them so they don’t disappear, and although they may not have committed any crime, they sit in jail for an average of four months before we can manage to send them out of the country. So they are treated as, and serve punishment, as criminals, although they are not.

  55. Angel wrote:

    What a wonderful post! I was so affected by it that I wrote a reply to your thoughts on my blog . Before I started reading the post, I was very much on the side of Hae having had similar experiences and gone through the “immigration” experience the “legal” way. And now, after reading through everyone’s thoughts, I’ve just come to realise how inadequately we humans deal with each other. Ultimately, I see now that everytime this topic of illegal immigration comes up, I have to remember take a step back before opening my mouth. Always, my initial reaction is to talk from the point of view of my immigration process and always, I assume a defensive stance (rightfully or wrongfully) and instead of listening to others’ viewpoint on the subject, I want to shout them down and hear my side of the immigration debate.

    Anyway, the distrubing thing I find is that despite the mantra that is shouted at you when you step off the plane, boat, etc… that this is the land of immigrants, there is a dangerous dichotomy that also exists. The word immigrant has become a bad word, one that you can attack someone with. Despite championing the individual, that concept is also accessible up to a certain point. You can be an individual as long as you do things the way we do it here, you can be an individual as long as you don’t wear those clothes, you can be an individual as long as you don’t act so much like yourself all the time. This is something we have to watch out for and pay heed to, I think.

  56. Angel wrote:

    Thanks for making me aware.

  57. MdeG wrote:

    In response to points raised by NewCitizen and JJ Chang (thank you both!) I want to add one thing.

    New Citizen mentions acquiring residency through marriage to a citizen. This used to be easy to do. It’s now much harder. Short and vague form: If you entered the US “unexamined” (i.e. without a visa), you are supposed to go home and get examined. For people who’ve been here without papers for more than a short time, if you leave you may not be allowed back in for a period of 3 or 10 years. (This thanks to a law called IIRAIRA, 1996, thank you Bill Clinton.) There has been, at times, a section of immigration law called 245(i) that allowed spouses of citizens to adjust status without leaving the country. This went out of effect in 2001, and thanks to post-9/11 paranoia has not come back.

    There is a procedure for getting around the 3- and 10-year bars. It’s a bit cumbersome and chancy, depending on where you’re from, but it can work.

    Situation not hopeless, but clearing up your status on the basis of marriage to a citizen is not at all simple or automatic.

  58. Nicole wrote:

    I think it’s just human nature to feel territorial about ones country. Those folks who are against making it easier for immigrates to live legally in the US are just acting out of paranoia, for example, the fear that jobs, food, and Standard American English will run out of job or go out of fashion. I personally feel our laws are outdated, and we need to have some humane laws in place because we live in a global society were those imaginary boundaries around the nations only exist in atlas.

  59. johnjihoonchang wrote:

    MdeG is correct. Receiving a green card on the basis of marriage is relatively straightforward with those who are currently in the US in a USCIS acknowledged status (present on a nonimmigrant visa). However, those are have stayed beyond their visa or those that are present without a visa (with a time limited exception of visa waiver countries) face problems in receiving their greencards; the process for receiving a greencard when you’re in the country (adjustment of status) requires that you have a status to adjust.

    If you stay beyond your visa or beyond the limitations of your visa waiver, depending on how long you stay, you could be barred from returning to the US for 3 or 10 years. You could wait it out, but who wants to wait 3 or 10 years to be with your spouse?

  60. diana wrote:

    This post has given me a lot to think about, as did many of the comments.

    I feel as though I cannot simply say “it’s a tough topic” because some things have to be discussed.

    My future mother-in-law roped me into a conversation about this topic, simply because she wanted to hear my opinion about it. She is completely against illegal immigration and find it a travesty that our tax dollars pay for their care, such as hospital visits. I sort of knew I wasn’t getting out of that conversation alive, because I’m a little more flexible.

    I’ve heard stories of illegals who bring their children here, who then thrive and go to college, but cannot do anything with their degree since they are TECHNICALLY not citizens… So then by no fault of their own, they cannot do anything and they are stuck in limbo.

    It is a topic that I would never be able to make a decision about, but I do think that if we really don’t want border-hopping, then we should invest in better border security. But then we need to realize that America IS the land of opportunity and that we should still allow for that.