Comments

1. Cynthia wrote:

   I wonder how the university will think of people like me. I never really did well in courses that Asians stereotypically do well in and caused quite a riot in the media literacy class I took in high school because I criticized the entire section on body image (I was a petite activist even at age 16!).

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 9:09 am ¶

2. hallidite wrote:

   Wow.
   That is unbelievable.
   Maybe he was also warning girls away from Maths classes?

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 9:34 am ¶

3. blah wrote:

   When “good” stereotypes become bad. Perfect example of stereotypes existing to put groups of people in their place. Sort of like a mental welfare.

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 9:50 am ¶

4. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

   what the hell???????? that’s just so inappropriate.

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 10:25 am ¶

5. Renee wrote:

   This comes as no surprise to me. So many think of universities as “liberal” but that is not the case for so many people of color. I studied womens studies and I can tell you I had many run ins with professors who were more than happy to tell me that my lived experiences were not correct, or that I had no idea what I was talking about.
   I remember on professor who told me about how dirt people from the Caribbean were. She could tell this from a few vacations of course, never mind that I had actually lived there and that it is my cultural background.

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 10:39 am ¶

6. atlasien wrote:

   In academia, Asian-Americans are under-represented in the humanities and social sciences. Part of that is internal family pressure, but I think another important element is external racial stereotyping. Starting in elementary school I noticed teachers tended to overestimate my mediocre math skills, but had lower than normal expectations for me in other areas.

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 11:06 am ¶

7. Will wrote:

   Hah!

   Reminds me of my first programming class in a podunk crappy university in 1992. I was forced to drop the class because after acing the first test the professor said ‘No one from Africa who has never seen a computer could do that well’ (I had used computers back home and even done some programming). He claimed that I cheated, and gave me the option of either dropping out or fighting him all the way to the dean. Being young and unsure, I dropped out, but out the next semester.

   What do I do today? I’m a Software Engineer.

   Irony

   I’m glad Odgerel Hatenboer is fighting back and making some noise.

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 11:59 am ¶

8. Will wrote:

   Doh!

   but out the next semester meant I transferred out of the university to another the next semester.

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 12:00 pm ¶

9. emfole wrote:

   what can we DO about this? Suggest course of action someone please?

   Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶

10. monica wrote:

    I don’t know if this is off topic or what but those Europeans need to check themselves. They act like they are so much more opened minded yet they treat their people of color just as bad or worse than America does.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 2:28 pm ¶

11. Atena wrote:

    Yikes! I hope that this man is sufficiently embarrassed, and has at least been roundly chastised and demoted by his superiors. WTF? WTF? W T F ?

    Though, really – what kind of supervision does this guy have that he actually thinks this is okay to say? Again, yikes.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 2:54 pm ¶

12. Ejunco wrote:

    Thats sounds so dumb

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 4:14 pm ¶

13. RChoudh wrote:

    Alot of animosity has been developing in the West towards Asians (both South and East) due to the erroneous belief that those Asians are “stealing all our jobs and taking up space within our universities”. This is just one example of such animosity. The economic meltdown has exacerbated those feelings among Westerners so unfortunately more incidents like this might be on the rise.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 4:50 pm ¶

14. Jha wrote:

    … Shouldn’t the professor have been pleased that she was willing to undertake the challenge of bucking the stereotypes?

    That is so stupid. *dusts off English Honours degree*

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 4:52 pm ¶

15. StarInaPaperCup wrote:

    I actually cringed when I saw the word “oriental”, even though it’s apparently -from what I’ve gleaned through asking around- acceptable in the UK. At the very least, I hope that staff member was fired. (Yep, fired. A reprimand isn’t enough in this case.)

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 5:16 pm ¶

16. Phrone wrote:

    Ugggghhhhh. That’s all I can say. I hope the guy was fired. That behavior should be unacceptable in a university.

    I just find it supremely ironic that he basically accused her of being unable to think originally, when all he did was rely upon tired old stereotypes. THAT’S original, creative thinking right there.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 5:33 pm ¶

17. LaurynX wrote:

    I thought the use of “Oriental” was showing the ignorance of the fool who told this woman she shouldn’t take the class.
    I didn’t know that that description was still used.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 5:40 pm ¶

18. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    @ Lauryn X: “Oriental” isn’t NOT a racist or degoratory term in the UK. It’s a general term to describe East Asian, like in the States, y’all use “Latino” to describe anyone from Spanish speaking countries (except Spain).

    I always used the word “Oriental” all the time until I moved here and then found out it was racist.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 6:55 pm ¶

19. brownstocking wrote:

    I remember reading this and thinking, WTH?

    Next year I’m going to Cardiff Uni’s Postgraduate Open Day. Let’s hope they figure this out!

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 6:59 pm ¶

20. EH wrote:

    Ya Oriental is definetly outdated. Although I worked with a guy who was really open-minded and used the term oriental to refer to East Asians. I’m 100% sure he didn’t mean it offensively but I never corrected him on it because I wasn’t really sure to how to approach it. He only used the word maybe like twice in the 6 months I worked with him anyway.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 8:00 pm ¶

21. heyhey wrote:

    I can’t even parse the logic in his statement. And that isn’t for lack of having the reasoning capability due to being asian and a female (grrrr). The first line, “I’m not saying you’re chinese”… is that missing a “because”? Or is he insinuating that “Chinese” is some kind of insult?

    “I don’t , like you, believe what I read, Lil’ Oriental Lady. I believe stupid stereotypes I hear. Big differrence.”

    See that mess right there makes me want to live up to the assumption that we all secretly know kungfu and could break a man in two. I realize violence is not the answer. It’s just tempting as all get out.

    If there’s any justice in the world he gets fired and she gets his job in a few years time.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 8:10 pm ¶

22. Dorian wrote:

    @Starinapapercup and Phrone

    According to the Resist Racism website, the university doesn’t even seem to care all that much:

    ” “The university has apologised that due to human error Mrs Hatenboer’s application form was misplaced at the open day.”

    “We are disappointed that Mrs Hatenboer remains dissatisfied with the outcome despite prompt action to clarify the matter.””

    ……..The stupid arrogance is blinding.

    The real irony is that the man himself can’t think beyond his small-minded prejudices, yet there he goes saying how Asians can’t think or do work for themselves. What a delusional idiot.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 8:19 pm ¶

23. hexy wrote:

    A lot of people in Australia still use the word “Oriental” and seem to have no idea that there’s any issues with the usage.

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 9:29 pm ¶

24. DJ wrote:

    I agree with Dorian’s statement that what the staff member says regarding the stereotypical Asian thought/study process implies that Asians cannot think for themselves, that they only have directed thought. I think it’s absolutely absurd that Ms. Hatenboer had to go through such an experience, though sadly, these experiences are more common than we’d like to think. Stereotypes, whether considered negative or “positive” (because I personally don’t believe that any stereotype is positive, but some people do), pigeonhole people. I’m further disgusted by the fact that the university is making no effort to rectify the situation.

    As DEAF FEMINIST PUNK pointed out, the term “Oriental” is perfectly acceptable in Western Europe. I have had both professors and friends from various countries in Western Europe ask me whether the term “oriental” or “asian” is preferred in the US. The reason being that to them, “oriental” means someone from east asian descent, and “asian” means someone from Indian descent. In the US, we view the word “oriental” as racist and condescending, but since the event took place in Wales, it would have been culturally acceptable to call her “oriental.”

    Trying to figure out “what can be done” about it is tricky. For instance, even if the university accepted her application and took her in, it doesn’t change the mentality of that particular staff member who made those comments. It will continue to happen. Racism isn’t just a behavior that needs to be corrected, it’s a mentality. People can change the way they behave to accommodate a person, social norms, or a situation, but it doesn’t necessarily change the way they think.

    *tosses 2 cents into the pot*

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 10:03 pm ¶

25. luckyfatima wrote:

    I work as an English as a Second/Foreign Language teacher in the Middle East and I have to say that my field is FULLLLL of white people who think and say things like this about people of color. I could really write a book about this stuff. Basically, (white) people who have had a liberal Western educations are supposed to have had instruction that features creativity, communicative learning, and promotes problem solving, team work, and analytical skills. This is the model for the best form of instruction. All of the rest of the world (all of the people of color—meaning the Arabs and the Japanese and the Latin Americans etc. are ALL THE SAME) are supposed to have experienced an educational system that focuses on the methods of rote memorization and disregards critical thinking. I am being simplistic here, but that is really a message that is very pervasive in my field at least, where often white experts or people of color who are experts in the white knowledge of English and ESL teaching commonly write (in more PC language) and say such things…the truth is more complex (rote learning is still common in many parts of the world, but HELLO it isn’t absent from Western education systems either!!! -eg. is the US educational system so great anyway?!?!?!), but that belief is just soooo arrogant and racist! Yet so very pervasive and it seems to exist in other fields of academia as well by seeing what this man said to this student!

    Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 11:35 pm ¶

26. Witchsistah wrote:

    Why wouldn’t she do well in the class? They don’t have numbers in “Orientaland” where she apparently is from?

    Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 12:19 am ¶

27. Cecelia wrote:

    This is so ridiculous!

    You can never assume what someone’s identity is. Should could of been Native American or something else. She could of been mixed – Asian, French and Colombian. Never ever assume anybody is something that their outer appearance seems to be. I always tell people to never assume anything on appearances. I have had many personal experiences with this because of how I look. I know many others who have had this experience as well.

    Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 12:38 am ¶

28. Virginia wrote:

    Wales can be a scary place. It’s a Very white place (they practically consider the english a different race), and often the people have never been challenged on these things so they can display outrageous prejudice (not all the welsh, I just found it to be more extreme when I did encounter it there).

    It freaked me out when I went to study in Wales – I’m from London and I’m used to a 25% POC ratio.

    Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 3:07 am ¶

29. steph wrote:

    Thanks for the update, Dorian. That is fuckin ridiculous

    Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 5:08 am ¶

30. DivergentDana wrote:

    “I thought the use of “Oriental” was showing the ignorance of the fool who told this woman she shouldn’t take the class.
    I didn’t know that that description was still used.”

    In England, the default assumption is that “Asian” means South Asian/Desi because they have a “reversed” population distribution in comparison to the U.S., so “Oriental” is used to specify that the Asian person being referenced is East Asian.

    Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 9:08 am ¶

31. Orville wrote:

    I remember during my undergraduate days I had run ins with various university professors and teaching assistants. University is definitely “not” so liberal when the issue of racism is explored. I also remember a history teaching assistant I believe to be racist trying to tell me I had missed several tuitorials. I complained to the history professor and got a solid mark in that class. I told the professor I would go to the race and ethics centre of the university and file a complaint agains the teaching assistant if I had to.

    Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 2:41 pm ¶

32. nat wrote:

    I’m from England and today was the first time I heard that the term ‘Oriental’ was racist. Sorry for all the times I’ve used it!

    Posted 24 Oct 2008 at 5:54 am ¶

33. Genevieve wrote:

    …I know an older black man who sells fragrance oils and things who frequently uses the word Oriental to refer to all East and South Asians, but since he’s 1) crazy, 2) very mixed up on history and thinks he’s more “enlightened” about the world than most people, and 3) I only have to see him when I go and buy fragrance oils, I don’t correct him. I just try to not talk to him…

    It’s really a lot of confused racism going around, because I don’t think most Americans realize how big Asia is, and that there are a lot more cultures and countries in the continent than just Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese. For the most part, I’ve noticed a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment, anti-North-Korean sentiment at its regular levels, and then just the “standard-issue” xenophobia on top of that for the East Asian population. For Southeast Asian-Americans, a lot are assumed to be Vietnamese or Chinese, because that’s what Americans are familiar with. I knew a lot of Hmong people who would be offended if you called them Vietnamese or Chinese, and a lot of non-Asians who had never heard of the Hmong before (myself included before moving to Wisconsin).

    This article actually reminds me of middle school, where this kid I knew was half-Asian and half-white and was exceedingly good at math and science, but also English and Spanish, and was also in our school chorus; but it seemed like even his family was all-out pushing for the math-and-science engineering type thing. He was really funny, too. Unfortunately, his mother insisted I was Portuguese.

    Posted 24 Oct 2008 at 7:57 am ¶

34. gatamala wrote:

    The application was misplaced. Really?

    Who was the guy who took the app? Clearly he was a gatekeeper.

    For those who don’t believe institutionalized racism: this is not the first, nor the last time this has happened to a non-white student.

    This has happened to me.

    Posted 24 Oct 2008 at 9:50 am ¶

35. Joseph wrote:

    @Witchsistah
    “Orientaland”
    Bwahaha!

    @nat
    Might be different in the UK but in the States only objects (like rugs etc.) are “oriental” not people. Eastern people all identify differently depending on where they are from–there is no universal rule.

    Posted 24 Oct 2008 at 4:02 pm ¶

36. Ian Jade wrote:

    Do like the Americans do. Sue!

    It is rather disturbing, but I would advice Ms. Hatenboer to write a ridiculously amount of application formulas if she feels that she is exposed to racism. It ought to get their attention.

    Posted 25 Oct 2008 at 9:05 am ¶

37. zaya wrote:

    Sounds like (from some comments here) many ppl choose keeping silent when faced with some discrimination, rather than speaking out. It s good that Odgerel Hatanbayar spoke out, and i think ppl should do so, actually.

    wow! stereotyping can kill so much talent and potetianls, i guess!

    Posted 26 Oct 2008 at 11:01 am ¶

38. beka wrote:

    I never knew till now that “Oriental” was an acceptable description in the UK! =/ And I highly doubt they call themselves occidentals.

    And it’s not just the stereotype of what an Asian person can, or cannot study. That guy was generalising, and denigrating, the entire Asian education system: “I’m not saying you’re Chinese but people like you, Oriental people, tend to accept what is written in the books and what the lecturer says”? Seriously? I’ve spent nine years in the school system and I’ve never been in a class where no one talked back.

    And it’s not like Japan/China/India/Singapore/Hong Kong have gotten so far ahead in terms of investments, research, HR, etc., through a complete lack of innovation…

    “I’m not saying you’re Chinese but…” Wth. Kind of like McCain’s “I’m not saying he’s a Muslim, BUT…”, or something similar.

    /rant

    Posted 26 Oct 2008 at 1:47 pm ¶

39. Free wrote:

    My Egyptian friends refer to their society as Oriental, as in “our Oriental society.” If Oriental is racist, then what does that mean for my friends? I must confess that it is confusing for me when words are denounced at Racialicious that my friends use to describe themselves and others. Nigger is used in Egypt, (I’ve just learned), but a friend tells me that it means nothing, that it is something from television and the movies. So, here she is mimicking. I try to explain to her what nigger means, but she just says that is my American problem, that I can’t take a meaning from American and set it down in Egypt. Is she correct in this?

    Posted 26 Oct 2008 at 9:16 pm ¶

40. JenniferRuth wrote:

    I’m in the UK and I haven’t found “oriental” to be a common term for East Asian. However, I did grow up in Liverpool and now live in Manchester – both cities have large East Asian (mainly Chinese) populations. Liverpool’s East Asian population has been there for decades. Perhaps this makes a difference to the language used?

    Posted 27 Oct 2008 at 7:47 am ¶

41. Suzy wrote:

    Wow :-O
    It’s the first time I am visiting this website and I find it amazing! People speaking freely about these issues….Tha’s so usual in the UK

    Posted 19 Feb 2009 at 8:37 pm ¶

42. Jo wrote:

    I don’t take offense to the use of the word Oriental when referring to people of East Asian decent. I’m an Asian Dane with part American decent through adoption and I have many British Acquiantances so I’m used to both being referred to as an Asian or an Oriental. I’m becoming increasingly more comfortable with Oriental but it was strange in the beginning. An Asian is often assumed to be a South Asian according to my British buddies.

    I’ve had many similar experiences to that of this lady here in Denmark and in the U.S. where someone has made many quick assumptions about me based on my appearance.

    Just to give one short example; When my husband and I were engaged and went to register and apply for our marriage, the council “guy” (I don’t know what his professional title was) who greeted us at the council/county house asked my husband if I spoke Danish. The man never got an answer to that question! Instead I whipped open my folder with all my ID papers and began to ramble off. That sort of answered his question without directly answering it.

    I’ve encountered many humilating experiences with inovert and overtly bigotted racists who tried to keep their priviliges to themselves and only accepted me in the “priviliged club” when they realized that I had white privilige through adoption and later on my marriage. They only do so reluctantly and I’m very poorly dressed to deal with the lack of privilige when I’m on my own both on a practical level but also on an emotional level because I’ve only had white role models who take their privilige for granted or deny it if confronted with it. The age old: “you should be grateful for being adopted”.

    When I do get a chance to explain or even defend myself, I often take it backwards. Starting with the place in Denmark I identify as my hometown, then confirming I’m Danish, no I wasn’t born here in Denmark, yes I’m adopted from Thailand but that doesn’t make me Thai. Nothing to do with shame it’s a matter of personal identity. Yes, my mother’s Danish, no my dad’s not; He’s American. No, one of my parents aren’t Asian and I’m not mixed. I repeat; I’m adopted.

    There are so many things about my identity that don’t fit people’s assumptions about what one who looks like me should sound like, what name I should have and what I should be like. My “accent” (I don’t have an accent when I speak Danish and I have a Danish accent when I speak English) doesn’t match what they see.

    I’m a homemaker by choice, not because I was too stupid to be accepted into a higher institution of education but because after lengthy considerations, I decided no formal training, no professional career or the money I could make thereby would make me truly happy or bring me the challenges, learning experiences, and satisfaction I was craving.

    Usually I don’t even get a chance to explain why I’m a homemaker. It’s just assumed that my husband taught me Danish and that I’m by birth inheritance naturally inclined towards a subservient and docile nature. My husband will tell you that I’m not subservient, I’ll confirm it, and we’ll tell you that while the division of responsibilities are old fashioned and traditional, this is an equal relationship and we have mutual respect for each other and we’re very grateful for what the other one brings into the relationship.

    If people realize that I speak fluent Danish, they usually assume that the only subject I can carry a longer conversation about is homemaking, child rearing and how to make my husband happy.

    I’m not ambitious for myself and I do thrive to do what I feel is right for my family but I’m not self-effacing either. I have pride and I take pride in what I do and the often immediate results I see.

    Disclaimer: I’m not passing judgement on other people’s lifestyle decisions. I don’t believe a one model fits all. I just chose a lifestyle that isn’t socially acceptable anymore and which causes knee jerk reactions from others, especially other women.

    When/if people begin to realize that their pre- conceived ideas about me don’t hold when I open my mouth and talk about all the things that interest me and all the issues I feel strongly about and want to educate myself on (in an informal, none-institutional setting) they become very uncomfortable and try to force the subject back to what they’re comfortable talking to me about which are soft and safe subjects like home decor, child rearing, home keeping, cooking and gardening. I’m ALSO interested in those subjects.

    If I ever find myself in this lady’s situation, I’ll put all my self learnt skills I’ve acquired through the amount of necessary help from the public sector that two disabled children (we have three boys) and their and their dad’s serious chronic illnesses necessitates, to good use!

    I’ve not even read a dozen entries on racialicious but I’ve read many comments to other stories and this. However, I still have no sense of what is considered an acceptable length of a response. I apologize if I’m too long winded.

    Posted 23 Apr 2009 at 10:08 am ¶

43. Jo wrote:

    In the past I’ve used the term white privilige to define something I thought I was observing. I wasn’t aware it was a term others used until I began to read posts on here. There have been many instances where I’ve been conscious of the fact where I could’ve revealed my adoption identity but didn’t so I didn’t “enjoy” white privilige I could’ve taken advantage of in those situation. I wasn’t very conscious of it back in my teens where I had most of these experiences and had a choice one way or the other.

    Posted 23 Apr 2009 at 10:33 am ¶