Comments

1. adamson wrote:

   This debate was FAR BETTER than the town hall-style debate. FAR BETTER.

   I’m still pissed off that McCain didn’t mention education, even though Obama barely mentioned it.

   I’m SO happy that Obama mentioned the whole issue about giving only $5,000 to families to pay for healthcare, when the average family has to pay WAY more than that. I’m not sure where McCain got his $5,800 per year average figure from. DEFINITELY not California.

   I fell asleep at the very, very end.

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 11:28 am ¶

2. atlasien wrote:

   McCain did go off about vouchers.

   The irritating thing about vouchers is that the white Republican base typical doesn’t need or want them. They’re always prescribed as a measure for “failing inner-city” schools, but never for white middle-class exurban schools. That’s because those people don’t want vouchers, because they know it would take money away from their prized public schools! The whole thing is a massive scam.

   McCain’s healthcare plan is based on the equivalent of vouchers, and it’s complete crap.

   I thought Obama did very, very well. He smoothly deflected McCain’s smears. His response on abortion was especially good. He gave the kind of answer that’s going to win over some formerly single-issue pro-life voters. He’s not going to take the firm position that progressives want him to take, but the one he took was a decent mixture of principle and pragmatic pandering.

   Pushing adoption as a way to lower abortion rates — something he mentioned — is an idea I disagree with totally. But for some reason, it always makes pro-lifers go into ecstacy, so I can see why he touched on it.

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 11:44 am ¶

3. WestIndianArchie wrote:

   I wish I knew a Republican so that they could explain to me how any of those cockamamie (c) J. McCain ideas are supposed to work.

   - J. Mac blinked a whole lot and didn’t seem at ease with the debate

   - But J. Mac, my plan exempts small business men

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶

4. OneShySistah wrote:

   I’ve tired of watching debates just to listen to these two candidates discuss the same policies. I feel like we’ve heard them all before. So, I’ve become rather “superficial” in my observations. I am independent and support neither candidate, honestly, but if I was undecided at this point, last night would have made up my mind hands down. I don’t believe for one second that McCain would be a good leader for the American people. His conduct in these debates has been atrocious! No eye contact, name-calling, and talking AT his opponent? If this is how he works with his peers, then why in the world should I believe that he would care at all about me, average American? To make it worse, his conduct smacks of entitlement – like the American people OWE him their vote, especially because the other candidate is simply unworthy due to his brown skin and “Arab-sounding” name. If that’s all McCain brings to the table, I hope someone kicks the chair out from under him and he lands flat on his back!

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 12:40 pm ¶

5. Paz wrote:

   I was a bit surprised that Obama brought up the rabid McCain crowds shouting “Kill him.” But I was deeply disappointed with McCain’s response. He just whined about how Obama doesn’t repudiate the attacks made on him, while he has supposedly always defended Obama. And then he has the nerve to say that he won’t stand for attacking his supporters, the war veterans, etc. I thought McCain had some integrity. Calling McCain old or out of touch is NOT akin to calling Obama a terrorist or shouting “Off with his head.” Palin said Obama was, “palling around with terrorists” and ads called him “dangerous.” WTF are they insinuating? McCain needs to own up to the fact that some of his supporters (and running mate) have gone way too far.) His name is on the ticket and he needs to be accountable for the campaign he is running and the dangerous responses it has provoked.

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 12:41 pm ¶

6. shirky wrote:

   McCain kept phrasing the health-care credit as though every person gets 5k, although it is only 2500 per person, 5k for a family. I hoped Obama would clarify that.

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 12:42 pm ¶

7. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

   I love how McCain tried to deflect criticism by playing the “I can’t believe John Lewis called me a racist!” card. Obama’s response was excellent:

   “I think the American people are less interested in our hurt feelings during the course of the campaign than addressing the issues that matter to them so deeply.”

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 12:59 pm ¶

8. Fatemeh wrote:

   @ Carmen: cosign!
   I was *appalled* that he asked Obama for an repudiation (i.e., an apology) for John Lewis’ comments about his campaign fanning racial hatred. Just disgusted.

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 1:03 pm ¶

9. Lisa J wrote:

   Thank you Fatehma and Carmen, my jaw was on the floor and I was screaming at the TV when McCain complained that Obama didn’t defend him from John Lewis’ “attack” on him. Especially when he said he was proud of the people at his rallies. Lewis called it right and then McCain has the unmitigated gall to complain about being called on the racist trash he has largely condoned (that half-assed comment about Obama being a decent American didn’t cut it, at least not wiht me).

   Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 1:10 pm ¶

10. brownstocking wrote:

    I concur with the above, in general. I was so over the debate before it began. I had to TiVo it, and I still haven’t finished watching. Let’s just get this over with.

    And, McCain asking Obama to “repudiate” Lewis? HOW DARE HE? Oooh, he needs a good talking to! So typical of white male privilege, “hey, what about me? My feelings got hurt, too!”

    Has anyone been able to prove where Obama crowds threatened McCain’s LIFE? REPEATEDLY?

    Our country is headed for trouble, and I hope POC are ready for the fallout.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 1:14 pm ¶

11. Lynn wrote:

    @ shirky,

    I, too, hoped Obama would make the distinction that the McCain tax cut is $5000 per family. It’s a very important difference. As a single person, $5,000 seemed like peanuts to me, so I was shocked to learn it would only be $2,500.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 1:14 pm ¶

12. Squidfly wrote:

    For those who are undecided, apathetic or confused as to which of these two candidates to choose from, you need to look at how they have ran their campaign’s.
    Obama has a well organized team, that has been disciplined fiscally and strategicall. Everyone in the Obama camp has stayed on message. McCain’s camp has been the complete opposite. The management that each Candidate has displayed in the running of their campaign is a strong indicator as to how they would run an Administration. Everyone rolled their eyes at Obama’s choice of Biden, it’s now seen as a stroke of Genius, compared to the selection of Palin, which is reckless and dangerous. Biden and Obama is a great sounding and looking team. This election may have been Obama’s to lose but it was McCain’s to win. The debates are nothing more than a showcase for the country to see up close which model out smarts the other and whose the more attractive choice. Obama had to show up in front of the camera and make Americans feel comfortable with HIM! All this chatter about specifics from each candidate is absurd, just click onto the respective websites all the info is there. Obama played McCain like a Fender Stratocaster last night, plucking, stroking and slapping like Bootsy Collins the man is a political genius.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 1:39 pm ¶

13. Rene wrote:

    If you are still undecided after nearly two years of campaigning I don’t expect you to hear anything from last night or in the next 19 days to convince you. You either go Obama or McCain but there isn’t a split. These two couldn’t be more different on the issues but what is more telling is their demeanor. Obama easily brushes off McCain’s slights but his opponent absorbs any opposition to his views as a personal attack. Get over it John! If you can throw it, be willing to catch what comes your way.

    More telling is how these men treat their wives. We’ve all heard that McCain has called his wife Cindy the “C” word but what really disturbs me is his lack of regard for her. As the candidates and wives departed the stage, McCain bounded down the stairs to be welcomed by well-wishers while his wife Cindy made her way down the stairs one step at a time as a man- not McCain- extended his hand. You can’t escort your wife down stairs? The cameras pick all of McCain’s ticks as well as his discourteous behavior.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 3:10 pm ¶

14. Mary wrote:

    This debate certainly didn’t change my plans to vote for Senator Government…

    And, McCain asking Obama to “repudiate” Lewis? HOW DARE HE? Oooh, he needs a good talking to! So typical of white male privilege, “hey, what about me? My feelings got hurt, too!”

    I don’t know if this is me and my biases talking, in other words that I support Obama and am more disposed to view his actions favorably, but I actually thought Obama managed to make McCain look incredibly weak and whiny for talking about how mean old John Lewis hurt his feelings. If you envision the typically obnoxious dismissal of white racism with “you’re playing the race card,” it’s like Obama somehow managed to pull the mirror opposite. I don’t even know how to describe it.

    But for my money, the biggest OH SNAP moment of the debate was Bob Schieffer basically asking the two candidates to defend their VP selections. I mean, he had to know that Obama would sail through his answer while McCain would have to justify Sarah Palin with a straight face. Don’t tell me Schieffer hasn’t had it with the hockey mom.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 4:28 pm ¶

15. Tasha wrote:

    @ atlasien – Pushing adoption as a way to lower abortion rates — something he mentioned — is an idea I disagree with totally. But for some reason, it always makes pro-lifers go into ecstacy, so I can see why he touched on it.

    I can’t believe his unmitigated gall in doing so. A family who adopted OUTSIDE the US.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 5:04 pm ¶

16. Jess wrote:

    Leaving aside the fact that these debates are, lets face it, a little theater…

    I think Obama actually didn’t go for the jugula the way he could have. When McCain mentioned Ayers, I wanted Obama to ask about McCain’s man who lobbied for Saddam Hussein, or McCain’s support of the Contras, or better yet, the Keating five. I mean, there were a lot of things there he could have trotted out.

    That said, all Obama had to do was hold on — he didn’t need to make any game-changing gains.

    THe abortion issue was another one where I think Obama could have called McCain out on the Right’s lies.

    The whole, “Life-saving treatment in case of failed abortion.” That stuff’s a myth. First trimester abortions never result in anything to save, since the fetus is the size of a pea.

    Second trimester abortions are not only rather rare, but they too almost never result in needing life-saving treatment (except for the mother if somebody messes up).

    Then we got to “partial birth” abortions, another myth of the right. I think Obama should have called out the simple truth — that procedure is one in 10,000 at most and is for cases where babies are beyond saving. Like anencephalics or other severe deformities that usually mean the baby is going to die anyway. (And we’re not talking days here, we’re talking hours or minutes).

    (I get on that one because my mother is an OBGYN. She gets crazy when people who have never had to deliver a baby start spouting off on women’s health).

    But other than that, I think Obama did pretty well, and even on the abortion issue I cut him some slack because there are a lot of people who might otherwise be single-issue voters out there, and he may have been told he can’t turn them off.

    Ultimately, his answer — that a woman and her doc have to decide — was the right one.

    I think McCain’s handlers didn’t let him know he was making the same mistake Nixon did in 1960. He looked shifty, blinked a lot like a lizard, and didn’t connect as well as he did in the town hall meetings. And when he didn’t repudiate his supporters, that was it. He could have said, “Saying ‘kill him’ is wrong, and I wouldn’t want to vote of someone like that’” would actually have put Obama on the defensive and McCain on the high road. He didn’t do it, though, and that was a big loss of a chance to turn the game around.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 6:20 pm ¶

17. cinco wrote:

    The more I find out about McCain the less I care for him.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 7:25 pm ¶

18. i-geek wrote:

    “I’m SO happy that Obama mentioned the whole issue about giving only $5,000 to families to pay for healthcare, when the average family has to pay WAY more than that. I’m not sure where McCain got his $5,800 per year average figure from. DEFINITELY not California.”

    Yeah, not Michigan either. I watched last night with my friend, who has both a masters degree in human resources/labor relations and has major health issues, so health insurance is a cause near and dear to her. She laughed at the $5800 quote. She said that would probably take someone through about half the year at best. We decided that McCain must have been averaging in the people who have NO insurance, and thus have policies worth $0, to come up with his numbers.

    Posted 16 Oct 2008 at 8:42 pm ¶

19. Nate wrote:

    As a non-american watching the debate I do admit , I do agree that Obama came off the best. Very parliamentarian, and I mean that in a good way.

    Still don’t know where the money for the tax break sand all the spending are going to come from though. From what was said I think neither canditate (from aleft or right perspetive) thinks people are ready for the plain message that if people want good, inclusive, comprehensive european style social and health services (ala france), you’ve got to pay. And that means taxes. Like a 19.5% TCC/VAT (or no tax breaks on residential mortgates).

    The other issue, that I do think will set people up for a fall if Obama wins, we’re stilll not going to like you guys all that much this side of the pond. Or if we do, only an exceptional level. Privilege is privilege. And even with people not confirming fully with the ‘yankee’ stereotype (including POCs), the accent (and class) are enough. I’m thinking back here to Jimmy Carter.

    Posted 17 Oct 2008 at 5:03 am ¶

20. Satan wrote:

    Carmen Van Kerckhove:
    Completely

    Posted 17 Oct 2008 at 5:48 am ¶

21. gatamala wrote:

    He could have said, “Saying ‘kill him’ is wrong, and I wouldn’t want to vote of someone like that’”

    But then that wouldn’t be true. Not only does he want that vote, he needs it and is in fact counting on it. It is his base.

    Posted 17 Oct 2008 at 11:51 am ¶

22. Squidfly wrote:

    Nate wrote
    The other issue, that I do think will set people up for a fall if Obama wins, we’re stilll not going to like you guys all that much this side of the pond. Or if we do, only an exceptional level. Privilege is privilege. And even with people not confirming fully with the ‘yankee’ stereotype (including POCs), the accent (and class) are enough. I’m thinking back here to Jimmy Carter.

    …you know Nate comments like that just reinforce a certain animosity and arrogance that emanates from that side of Pond, that oozes with post Second World War envy from “Old Europe” to quote Rumsfeld. If you’re a Brit are you going to tell me that Thatcherism was the shining beacon for the re-emergence of Brit Imperialism, or if you’re French is Sarkozy the proto Joan of Arc? The last I heard this week, there was a roit in France over a Travolta film and England has had numerous race/class/financial problems well before this recent incident. I feel like I’m traveling in Europe right now, and as always, I have to defend the USA to people who just don’t get it. Whose asking you to like us? This is the reverse blame game Europeans play on Americans all the time. The point you’re missing is that Obama reflects the best and the potential of this country.
    The list of European countries right now that are decades behind the race curve is exploding. Read about the experiences of Black Footballers playing in Spain, Italy, or the Ukraine, about the virulent racism they have to endure.
    As far as class and accents well we’ve embraced all sorts of Cockney’s , Liverpudlian’s, Brummie’s, Geordie’s and such, maybe that’s why you’re in the UK( I presume) and we’re in the USA.

    Posted 17 Oct 2008 at 3:09 pm ¶

23. Jess wrote:

    @gatammala–

    well, yes and no. McCain always had issues with “the base” as it’s known — the conservative social issues voters. It isn’t clear how much that group overlaps with the crazy right-wingers of the Patriot movement folks that Palin hangs with. (I’m not saying it doesn’t, the question is how much. I suspect its not quite as big as it might be).

    That said, since McCain wasn’t impressing those folks with how socially conservative he is (that’s why he chose Palin) and he needs the market-oriented independents, he was in a bit of a bind. That’s one reason he didn’t pick Romney as a VP — Romney may (and I stress may) have helped in Michigan, but the plutocrat ticket wasn’t going to fly even before the Wall Street meltdown.

    McCain was also done in by his personality– hhe thought Huckabee was crazy (heck, I think so too) and there weren’t too many other good choices, (though Olympia Snowe might have been a good one, if it didn’t endanger a Senate seat). .

    So, McCain needs the vote, but I’m saying had he distanced himself from the nutjobs from day one he’d not have needed them as much in the first place, you know what I mean?

    But he’s probably stuck now, you;re right about that. I was just saying that he might have extricated himself a bit by repudiating the real scary folks. Would it have changed the momentum of the race that much? Odds are not at this late date.

    Posted 17 Oct 2008 at 8:40 pm ¶

24. Nate wrote:

    Squidfly

    “…you know Nate comments like that just reinforce a certain animosity and arrogance that emanates from that side of Pond”

    I think you’ved missed my point. What I was meaning is that being american, globally, is being in a position of privilege (as is being a brit or western european for that matter). What I fear will happen is that with Obama, the nurances of race and racism in that states are going to be lost when people oustide of the states, consider the privilege that all American’s are perceived to have, simply by the virtue of being American and partaking in the benefits of (even unconciously) – of the past 50 odd years of American hegemony.

    I agree, the states less blatantly classist that England. Its still all comes down to money tho. I was also writing the post from Mumbai. Its not just an old ‘europe thing’. People here remember union carbide.

    Cheers

    Posted 20 Oct 2008 at 12:45 am ¶