Save it for your therapist, Chris
by Guest Contributor Tami, originally published at What Tami Said
I was excited to watch Chris Rock’s fifth HBO special, “Kill the Messenger,” which aired last night. But by the end of the 90-minute show, I was disappointed, as I was at the end of “Never Scared,” the comedian’s last cable effort. When Rock is stalking the stage and talking about race, politics and social issues, he is at his best: insightful, creative, and most importantly: funny as hell. But when he jokes about women and relationships, he comes off as pathological and bitter. Worse (since Rock is a comedian), the women/dating/marriage schtick is hackneyed and unfunny.
First, let me say, I’m not humorless. I’m not so wrapped up in political correctness about race or gender, that I can’t find humor in the taboo. My bias is toward nuanced, layered and dry comedy. I like comics who hide message and social critique and pokes at life’s absurdities among the punchlines. I like the off-kilter and the edgy. I hate broad comedy and don’t get slapstick. And while I find “clean” comedy boring, I lose patience with jokes that simply parrot stereotypes or offend simply for the sake of offending. And here’s a confession: I saw “Tropic Thunder” and loved it, even though I noticed all the things about it that people have found so offensive. So see, I laugh at stuff.
Back in the day, Chris Rock was one of my favorite comedians. The Chris Rock I like is the one who last night pointed out that while the handful of black people living in his tony New Jersey neighborhood (Eddie Murphy, Mary J. Blige) have exceptional careers, his white neighbor is a…dentist. Rock jokes that for a black dentist to make his way into that neighborhood, he’d have to invent teeth.
Another highlight of last night’s special was Rock’s thoughts on the 2008 presidential election. Barack Obama is so cool and calm, Rock says, you’d think he believes a black man getting the most votes is going to mean something. After all, society has been known to change the rules when black folks are playing the game. “Good you got the most votes. Too bad you lost. We don’t do it that way anymore.” Rock remains one of the few comedians who can kill with observations about race that move beyond the “white people do this; black people do that” tropes.
Talking about race is where Chris Rock excels, but I understand not wanting to be ghettoized as a “race comic.” Maybe that’s why his last two HBO specials have seemed to include more men vs. women material. It’s a pity, because his performance is weaker for it.
Early in his act, Rock explains that a black man can’t be president, because a black woman can’t be first lady. That’s right. A black woman can be president, just not first lady. “Because a black woman cannot play the background of a relationship,” says Rock. “Because it’s too much work for the Secret Service,” says Rock. (A black first lady would try to kill the president.) If Obama really wants to be president, Rock suggests, he ought to “get a white girl…cause a white girl will play her position.” Yeah…
The stereotype of the domineering, screeching black woman (and do-whatever-you-say compliant white girl) is old and tired, and every BET ComicView act has already rode it into the ground. If pushing the angry, black woman meme counts as comedy, then someone needs to tell Rush Limbaugh that Rock has stolen his act. He painted Michelle Obama as an angry Sapphire months ago. Shouldn’t a comic as talented as Rock be able to come better than a bloated, racist, Oxycontin-fiending shock jock?
Sadly, no.
Throughout “Kill the Messenger,” Rock never misses a chance to paint women, particularly black women, as adversaries. Much is made about women viewing men as sources of money and stuff. Rock jokes that when a woman sees something she wants, she thinks: “Who can I get to get me that?” Rock isn’t saying all women are golddiggers, but we ain’t messing with no broke…broke…
The idea of a man working to support a slave-driving woman seems a little musty, since most women today, well, have jobs. The act seems particularly odd as it relates to black women. Listen to CNN and black women have done too well. Our degrees, jobs and mortgages have rendered us unloveable, because black men have been left behind. What man wants a self sufficient woman who doesn’t need him? (sarcasm–for those that missed it.) et listen to Rock and black women spend our lives demanding goodies from our miserable partners. Where’s the “it’s funny, cause it’s true?”
In Chris Rock’s world, women are demanding, domineering and manipulative. Marriage and committed relationships are where men go to die. It’s not that I object to men poking fun at the things women do (as long as we can poke back). It’s just that Rock is so relentlessly disdainful toward women in his act, casually spitting “bitches” and betraying no real affection for the opposite sex. His routine comes off as so bitter and disconnected from reality, that I often begin to wonder what trauma has left the comedian so broken. It kills the funny.
They say comedy comes from pain. Surely, many master comedians have hidden dark and troubled sides (Richard Pryor, John Belushi, etc.) Chris Rock’s material about women and relationships (like that of his buddy, Bill Maher) seems to betray some deep fucked-upedness. Do a fan a favor, Chris, stick to the political and social stuff, and save the rest for a therapist.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
G.D. wrote:
Yep. Not to get all gossipy and speculative, but I wonder how much of his bitterness is based in some real insecurity.
I remember reading an interview with Chris Rock where he said he found himself in a bar with Mike Tyson. And as he put it, they were just two dudes from Brooklyn lamenting the idea that their wives would never have given them the time of day if they weren’t Chris Rock and Mike Tyson.*
Also, something about his “black men LOVE fat white women” bit really irked me. It sorta goes to the idea that interracial relationships are fundamentally about fetishes.
*Though in the case of Mike Tyson, you sorta gotta think that this person’s dating standard are very, very accommodating.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 10:24 am ¶
J wrote:
True THAT.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 10:35 am ¶
Jess wrote:
Hmmm. I haven’t seen this particular Chris Rock special yet. But I have seen his other stuff. I think sometimes he skates kind of close to the Bill Cosby world of complaining about black pathologies, but that could be me focusing on small sample size.
As to women, well, I can see how any two guys like Rock and Maher — who have had their share of failed relationships– might be a bit bitter and letting it slip some.
Heck, you could put Jerry Seinfeld on this list. He was involved with a 17-year old — when he was 40. What’s up with that?
That said, too bad he isn’t hitting the notes this time around. Maybe he needs a good therapist?
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 10:51 am ¶
Penni Brown wrote:
what makes CR’s schtick so much more offensive to me is the fact that he’s married to an accomplished black woman. I wonder what she has to say about his ‘jokes’. Doesn’t he vet his material with her? This is like ‘I think I love my wife’ the extended version. It’s obvs that CR is bitter and unhappy about his marriage. Many comedians are bitter and unhappy about something, but like you said, go get therapy dude!
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 11:25 am ¶
C-Marsh wrote:
You hit the nail on the head Tami. I felt the exact same way.
Another part that made me uncomfortable was when he talked about the use of the word “faggot.” His explanation wasn’t one with which I agreed. I loved that a black comedian espoused how great No Doubt is as a band, but I hate that he did it at the expense of homosexuality. Then again, this piece actually seemed to have a sense of comorbidity regarding male homosexuality and No Doubt. Like “f****ts” listen to No Doubt at stop lights and pay more attention to singing than driving. It begs the question is that person a “f****t” for singing along to No Doubt or for not paying attention?
This special made me realize that Chris Rock is a superb comedian when talking about race and politics and that’s pretty much where it ended in this special.
I miss Dave Chappelle…
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 11:34 am ¶
Mr. Noface wrote:
I found much of Chris Rock’s act funny, but some of the steroetypes that Mr. Rock was using sort of made me cringe. Like, G.D., the “black men loving fat white woman” irked me to no end. That part of the act lowered Rock’s comedy to the level of “white people do this and black people do that”, which in my opinion did not belong in an otherwise great HBO special.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 11:36 am ¶
Ericael wrote:
After being a big fan of Rock for years, I walked away from “Never Scared” feeling disappointed. But that wasn’t so bad– I walked away from “Kill the Messenger” feeling bad about myself. If that’s how a ridiculously successful and popular black star (married to a black woman, no less) feels about us… It’s hard enough being made to feel like you’ve done something wrong by being an independent black woman, but then successful black men make you the butt of the joke too? Chris was wrong about one thing– you hear black men demeaning and laughing at you like that, it just might make white men (and others) look more attractive.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 11:39 am ¶
Joseph wrote:
@Tami
“Save it for your therapist Chris”
…that was beautifully put. Like you, I don’t always need my comedians to articulate my politics exactly–as long as they make me laugh (RIP Bernie Mac). So for me the central point is your first one: when Rock talks about relationships (including his hack-y bits about women) he just isn’t funny. I felt the same way after Never Scared…the last 30 or so minutes were excruciating. Why does he think listening to him bitch about his marriage is funny? Just get a divorce already. Damn.
It is hard to believe that his instincts, which are so laser-sharp when it comes to race and politics, fail him so completely when he turns to gender and relationships. But they do. There was a moment in the 90s where he became the best comedian in America but–for me anyway–he hasn’t lived up to that early promise, and his preoccupation with women and marriage is why.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 11:56 am ¶
A.D. Nix wrote:
“Chris was wrong about one thing– you hear black men demeaning and laughing at you like that, it just might make white men (and others) look more attractive.”
Ah, but who would want such a creature as sad, domineering, emasculating, unattractive, manipulative and gold-digging as a black woman?
Watching this with my (white, feminist, Berkeley-grown) boyfriend . . . uncomfortable. And disheartening.
And worst of all: unfunny. I forgive Chappelle much for at least making me laugh. Come on.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 12:21 pm ¶
deb wrote:
I was looking forward to this special but it left me longing for the old Chris, the one whose social commentary was always so dead on. His humor verged on the scatalogical, all that was missing were the fart jokes.
If he doesn’t get back to his old form, I’m afraid he may have to resort to pratfalls for laughs.
btw, I didn’t notice a wedding ring.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 12:43 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:
I miss Dave Chapelle, too.
Tami’s post here is great. I saw “I think I love my wife” and it didn’t sit well with me, just like his jokes about women don’t sit well with me. I think Jess has a great point about about Rock & Maher.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 12:56 pm ¶
Antonio wrote:
Hmmm, I haven’t seen this special yet, but I was planning to check it out. I remember he railed against women pretty hard at the end of “Never Scared”. On another forum, users said the last 20-30 minutes (which was mostly bitching about women and marriage) was hilarious. So, for better or worse, I think the anti-woman stuff resonates with a crowd even if it isn’t particularly fresh.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
monica wrote:
Well according the gossip mags Chris’ marriage was on the rocks and he had a paternity suit against him from a white woman. If you see his TV loosely based on his childhood, you will see the neighborhood girls weren’t really into him.
Bill Maher has issues with women but at least he has never been married and has no children. This anti BW sentiment coming from a black man, married to a black woman with 2 black daughthers is troubling.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 2:25 pm ¶
BOB wrote:
I agree with most of you, but I am also so sick and tired of hearing from all these stars who have to tell you their political views. By the time he got thru telling us all why Obama should win and what Bush has done to us he went into killing black woman! I almost turned it off. Whatever happened to that hilarious social commentary stuff? Sorry Chris but two horrible specials in a row, geez how I miss Dave Chapelle and more so Richard Pryor!
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 2:32 pm ¶
Maria_Elena wrote:
I agree. You don’t have to defend your sense of humor. It missed the mark.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 2:56 pm ¶
aimerrouge wrote:
While I haven’t seen the program, I’m torn. I’ve always believed the best art comes from pain or trouble (though I don’t wish pain or trouble on people). If Chris was speaking from a place of pain, I don’t believe he should not be allowed to speak on whatever he was going through, even if I don’t like the content. On the other hand, I am Black woman who is having trouble finding a Black man to date. And yes, I come with “the baggage” – degree, job, car, my own place to live, and my finances in order. I am tired of my baggage being used as supporting evidence of what is “wrong” with me. I will watch this program, if only to see for myself.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 3:31 pm ¶
Fransky wrote:
I’m a huge fan of CR & have been waiting for years to see his latest special. I actually thought Never Scared was his best yet & though I felt kinda bad for his wife (the I would have fuct her friend on a quesadilla) some of his points on couplehood were on point.
Like how for many the choice is married and bored or single & lonely. Or how there are grown men playdates set up by wives sometimes. Or how sex may not be as exciting after years of marriage. Or how an exciting conversation among marrieds are about the variety in traffic routes. (I can’t say I relate, but can see how many might)
He did however note that being single is not so great and that fighting & STD’s in chaotic unstable relationships is not as good as a boring but stable marriage.
With his more biting jokes he may be revealing that he’s not quite equipped for marriage. But are not many married people in the same situation? And isn’t comedy in part so important & powerful because it reveals areas of our lives that may be taboo but we all have similar experiences & neurosis? We feel a sense of relief & community when someone tells on themselves & it’s what in turn makes us laugh. I’m thinking of the phrase “laughter is the best medicine.”
There is a slight trepidation now about his latest special. I still look forward to it but am worried he’ll be more bitter as you noted, especially about Black women. But I’ll probably do with it what I do with most things… take what I like and leave the rest.
~F
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 3:45 pm ¶
Free wrote:
Chris Rock is an irritant and so is Eddie Griffin when they try to crack wise about women. Both make we want to vomit. All the Women Should Hate Chris, the Misogynist Prick.
Griffin:
We didn’t give up a rib for that yip yap shit. We gave it up for some pussy. You just carrying it around for us. That shit ain’t yours.
Yeah, well fuck you!
Not really. Never.
Shame though that WOMEN laugh at this shit. Shame on them! Ain’t got no pride!
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 3:45 pm ¶
Amber26 wrote:
Look the fact is we can all say, yes there are women out there who DONT do A, B, and C, and there are guys out there who DONT do D, E, and F, but when it comes down to it…he’s LIVED through this stuff, marriage, politics, racism so I think that more than qualifies him to give his viewpoints. If you dont like or agree with his viewpoints, then simply turn the channel. You should know after his previous stand up what you are in when you go to watch Chris Rock. He doesnt speak to the rich, elitist, very liberal, practices new age religion, family of the future, he speaks to the common everyday man/women. If the everyday common man/women is LAUGHING HARD at his jokes, that means two things.
1. Thats how they really act
2. Thats how they really think
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 5:05 pm ¶
JustChaz wrote:
LOL I didn’t check any race or feminist blogs yesterday, but I knew after seeing this on my DVR this morning, that it would come up.
My biggest problem with the black women material is that it just plain wasn’t that funny. I gotta say that it’s a little weird for people to want Chapelle in his place, when dude was JUST as bad as Chris Rock ever was. Sadly, come to think of it, I can’t think of any successful mainstream black comedians in the past 25-30 years who didn’t resort to derogatory/mean-spirited statements or caricatures of black women in their stand-up.
Chris Rock’s greatness, IMO, is in forming a take on something, turning it on it’s ear, and shining the light on something that should seem so obvious to the rest of us. I guess the older he’s gotten, the lazier he’s gotten at this, which is a shame.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 5:19 pm ¶
Barbara B. wrote:
I came in on the part when Rock was talking about the word faggot and how context was important. I couldn’t watch any more than that. What a disappointment.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 5:46 pm ¶
Jaye wrote:
Totally agree…I love Chris Rock, and I have loved every single one of his specials…but when he talks about men and women, I watch the first time because it’s his new material, but I never watch it again after that (although his bit about women and hip hop always makes me laugh ). But his stuff about relationships, just boring and recycled and unimaginative and not funny.
And I never even consciously noticed that those two contradictory stereotypes about AA women were being said right next to each other…that AA women are golddiggers, and that AA women are so self-sufficient and independent that they turn AA men off. Thanks for pointing that out.
I have to disagree with some of the other commenters about Dave Chappelle though, I personally think this post applies even more to Chappelle than to Rock. I can atleast sit through Rock’s rantings about relationships, but Chappelle’s sexism I find beyond unfunny…I find it unbelievably and shockingly offensive. Whenever there was a skit about women in Chappelle’s show, I knew to just skip past it, or else I would be yelling at the screen. I roll my eyes but sit through Rock’s stuff about women, when I see Chappelle do skits about women, I want to find Chappelle and punch him in the face.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 6:21 pm ¶
Jennifer wrote:
[Mod Note - I appreciate you asking, Jennifer, but I think you also know your comment is fucked up on a lot of levels. You may have something with the idea of perceived attractiveness influencing Rock's sketch, but everything else heavily violates our comment policy. - LDP]
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 6:22 pm ¶
Mike wrote:
Well it wouldnt be comedy if it didnt offend some one.
The best comedy is the type mixed with personal pain, which I think Chris is expressing.
There is an audience that seems to understand that pain what does it say about the ones that dont.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 9:09 pm ¶
Roxie wrote:
I couldn’t agree more.
By the end I was in a full grimace mode. Nearly ruined my night.
Posted 30 Sep 2008 at 11:05 pm ¶
J wrote:
True enough about Chappelle’s lack of… sophistication in regards to women. But I can — not give him credit, but — grade him on a sliding scale. His comedy has only relatively recently grown towards occasionally sophisticated satirical commentary on politics — and he’s hit and miss on that, but that he’s exploring such issues with a seeming personal honesty is refreshing. Rock, though, Rock is brighter than that and well-practiced in social commentary. For someone who has quite obviously been employing a sharp eye to politics and society for quite a while, Rock should be growing towards greater insight, not inwards-looking bitter and reactionary jokes. (That being said: haven’t seen the new one, and, I’m holding him to the standards that I would hope he lived up to, but that’s not necessarily what *he* cares about or where he wants to go. And everyone is effected by their lived experience, whether they’re smart enough to know that it’s not necessarily a universal experience or not.)
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 12:35 am ¶
Renee wrote:
I actually intend to sit down and watch this tomorrow. The unhusband watched it yesterday and told me to take to aspirin in advanced because it was bound to give me a headache. After reading the commentary here I believe that he was probably right.
In his last special when he went on about strippers and attempting through comedy to socially discipline women he made it very clear how he views gender rolls. Chris cannot escape the ways in which we have been socialized to view certain bodies and the fact that find misogyny amusing in a society that clearly does not value women comes as no surprise. What is disheartening is that as a father he one would be believe that he would have a vested interest in combating sexism.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 3:00 am ¶
Tami wrote:
Yeah, I could write a whole nother post on Dave Chappelle. Though he doesn’t come off as mean-spirited and bitter as Rock, his show in particular leads me to believe he has similar beliefs–specifically about black women.
On Chappelle’s show, when a woman was to be loud, angry and demanding, a black woman was usually cast. The “hot chick” was generally cast as white or Asian. Either way, women were just objects. I remember one skit in particular that really got to me. It was the one where Chappelle demonstrated how everything looks cooler in slow motion. In the “cool” slo-mo scene, he walks into the club like he owns the place. All the women stare and gasp. A black woman with an afro dances over to him…and he puts his whole hand over her face and pushes her away. The message seemed to be: I’m cool and I ain’t got time for no nappy-headed black women. That always bothered me. What was Chappelle trying to say with that?
And frankly, though I laughed at Chappelle’s show, I never got that he was insightful about race. He simply boldly portrayed black stereotypes without flinching. He was daring, not particularly nuanced, and certainly no anti-racism crusader.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 6:24 am ¶
Dan wrote:
Tami – I didn’t take that particular Chappelle Show skit the way you did.
You’re taking it out of context. Yes he palmed the black woman’s face, but he also dissed a number of other people on the way to the dance floor.
The idea was that in slow motion, he sees himself as much cooler than he really is and is above EVERYONE, hence the dissing of the black woman, white kid, etc.
Do you remember when they sped it up? In “regular-speed-motion”? Everyone, including the black woman, was dissing HIM.
I think you’re seeing race in a situation that had nothing to do with it.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 9:50 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
co-sign Joseph. His fat white girl bit was very tired.
I watched this and got the same kicked in the gut feeling.
Bill Maher has issues with women but at least he has never been married and has no children. This anti BW sentiment coming from a black man, married to a black woman with 2 black daughthers is troubling.
Yes. It is. I can respect a man (albeit a creepy man) who doesn’t go the monogamy route over one who does and bitches constantly.
And I never even consciously noticed that those two contradictory stereotypes about AA women were being said right next to each other…that AA women are golddiggers, and that AA women are so self-sufficient and independent that they turn AA men off.
It never ceases to disappoint me.
[mod bear with me. I don't want to derail, but I really detect something in Rock's schtick and in this gender thing in general]
As for GD’s comment regarding women. For “not so cute” guys who get the hot chick when they get $$$: So.the.fuck.what. Certainly there was a “not so cute” chick on your “level” that you ignored to chase the “hot” one. Do men really operate under the illusion that women are not [at all] visual?* If you want someone attractive (and feel that you are ENTITLED to someone attractive), shouldn’t you have something to bring to the table too? If you don’t have a face, you bring $$.
*size matters (if she says it doesn’t she’s just trying to make you feel good about yourself)
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 12:26 pm ¶
allheavens wrote:
Look the fact is we can all say, yes there are women out there who DONT do A, B, and C, and there are guys out there who DONT do D, E, and F, but when it comes down to it…he’s LIVED through this stuff, marriage, politics, racism so I think that more than qualifies him to give his viewpoints. If you dont like or agree with his viewpoints, then simply turn the channel.
I have to agree, Amber26. I saw his special on Saturday and some of the material did make me uncomfortable, angry and sad. But sometimes that’s the price of admission, sometimes you want to look away and sometimes you want to bitch slap the messenger.
That’s way it is called satire, you know trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly; that holds up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn. Comedy is not always meant to be funny.
Bruce’s wasn’t, Pryor’s wasn’t. Sometime’s comedy is hard, it’s vain, it’s repellent, it’s internal pain reflected to the outer world.
However, sexist or repellent you found Chris Rock’s take on sex, marriage, white women, and Black women that’s HIS truth, HIS pain.
If you don’t like it than don’t buy it or into it.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 12:40 pm ¶
Shel wrote:
Chris Rock is lame! And no I don’t buy into his “truth” (which is LYING on black women and other groups) or his “pain.” It’s *not*comedy. It’s racism and sexism disguised as “comedy.”
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 2:13 pm ¶
devo wrote:
I was appalled! As a black woman working in corruption america…it is absurd to always have to know and see that folks see you as the ABW (angry black woman) all the time. We are not allowed to have a bad day w/o someone saying they were scared by it…”run for your lives!” attitude. While our white counterparts have a bad day and all of a sudden there’s a company wide meeting to figure out how to console her. WTF? The examples I can give of unfairness are miles long but why bother. I see it and I CHOOSE not to let it bring me down. I CHOOSE to abolish stereotype wherever I see it. Why can’t he choose especially since he has a commanding audience!
What Rock did in his special was solidify the stereotypes of black women and I find that to be irresponsible. Question for him, didn’t he come from a black woman? He’s married to a black woman, no? And he has 2 daughters who one day will BE BLACK WOMEN, no? So, what’s really going on that he felt so compelled to have a session with all of america when he should have saved it for his therapist…particularily a black woman therapist! Is he having a mid-life crisis or something? Back in the day when folks rudely use to refer to him as a crackhead b/c of his slim statue, I don’t recall any white “girl” chasing him. Now he has filled out a bit, he wants to be mean to the one woman that stood by him and stood by him when he was broke. Now that’s something to put in his act and find the humor in that. First one should be able to laugh at themselves before they poke fun at others AND the ruthless attacks he made on black women was as if a black woman was heckling him and there wasn’t any. So it was uncalled for!
I can continue with tons of comments but it would be repetition of what was said already. I am just so sick and tired of the backlash black women get. When will we ever have a moment where we don’t have to fight to be heard and appreciated? When? When will we stop saying its okay to degrade black women out of all the other races of women? When?
Chris Rock knew exactly what he was doing b/c he kept saying, “yeah…I said it” as if he wanted to piss folks off. All he did was commit career suicide! I am no longer a fan. Thank goodness there are PLENTY of other comedians out there. Hey Rock, in case you didn’t know, there are more black women with spending $$$ power than ever! Not to mention we’re more educated than ever! You may not have another HBO special…if you know what I mean.
Peace all!
AND I too miss Dave Chappell!
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 3:18 pm ¶
brownstocking wrote:
@ Amber26,
Yeah, yeah, turn the channel, flip the page, etc. That’s the problem with much of our world, we are so quick to tune out what makes us uncomfortable.
We, here, are social critics, so we don’t turn the channel. We can point out sexist, demeaning, racist bullshit, even if it doesn’t come from Limbaugh, Olberman, etc. Hell, we’re doing Rock a service by helping him! Game is not tight, he’s lost the voice that made him credible and famous. So, he should go back to the drawing board.
@allheavens
That’s way it is called satire, you know trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly; that holds up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn. Comedy is not always meant to be funny.
See, it’s NOT satire, when you’re not trying to provoke change. How did his rants and really old material about black women and fat white women provoke change? Do you think black men (for the sake of this discussion, I say this is his audience) thought, “we see black women that way, and that is so fucked up! we need to do better”? Or that black women said, “So true, we’ll try to emasculate and kill our men when they land positions of power! gotta stop that.” Do you think Chris was holding these stereotypes up– throughout our freaking WORLD– for us to scorn?
And comedy is supposed to provoke smiles at the minimum. His shit was weak. What was ironic was that my dad bugged out over the sex bits, and I bugged out over the Sapphire bits. That’s a generational topic for another day, though.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 4:14 pm ¶
StayingStrong wrote:
I remember seeing Eddie Murphy’s “Raw” way back with a friend and we left the theatre pissed. Then we discussed films made by black men that often had at least one sex scene with a black man and a white woman.
This Chris Rock thing is just another brick in the wall.
I guess Chris’ tirade is supposed to distract us from discussing him cheating on his wife with a European model and then having to hire the private-eye-to-the-stars to keep from being blackmailed. (Pun unintended.) He had to testify about it so it’s no rumor. So guess what, Chris, with or without money You’re No Prize Either, my brother.
As a black woman I see on a daily basis how little we’re valued by our own. It’s a damn shame.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 5:34 pm ¶
jenessa wrote:
I agree. I wasn’t laughing much when I tuned in midway, just kind of mesmerized by the suit/performance changes/edits. I was thinking in the back of my mind “didn’t he used to be funnier than this? Like, intelligently witty?” The neighborhood bit was a plus, but then all the sudden he was talking about faggots and people with one leg…and since I’m a queer black woman and my friend who was watching with me has one eye and is being sued on similar grounds to what he was describing…I thought it’d be best for both of us to watch some comedy that wasn’t entirely at our expense. *shrugs*
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 5:40 pm ¶
J wrote:
What I don’t get about Black women complaining about these things is that it seems that we never DO anything about them. We see Black men the people who are supposed to have our back so to speak railing us harder than any white racist could ever do and most of us still refuse to date out, most of us still refuse to fire back, most of us still refuse to even point out and boycott for fear of being further labeled. Its ridiculous. You cannot keep clinging so pathetically to a group of men who are openly declaring war against you for the sake of community. NEWSFLASH: If they are railing you like that and laughing about it, there IS no community!
Wake up Black women. Thats all I can say. There is a whole other world out there that we are not exploring and we are letting hurtful lies and propaganda spread without doing much to combat them besides saying “that hurts”. I stopped dating Black men long ago because of the BS.
Posted 01 Oct 2008 at 9:16 pm ¶
Rhiannafan wrote:
“See, it’s NOT satire, when you’re not trying to provoke change. ”
BULLSHIT. Look up the definition of satire, it has nothing to do with provoking change. Your definition is completely WRONG. But lets say your right for whatever purposes.
Chris Rock points out a lot of flaws that women have, is it his fault that some women that have those flaws and wont make the effort to ever change them? I said some women, thats key, I know some women who are like what he says. But I dont want to generalize with all women.
But your other points are equally wrong. There are plenty of jokes in his special that dont deal with women, and those are as sharp and effective as they ever been. The one that stood out the most is the one about his neighborhood and living next to the white dentist. If that doesnt give you a clear image of what it means to be black vs white in America.
And when people blame that “Oh what he says never happens in real life, its just media images and blah blah blah…I’m reminded of that quote in ‘Bring the Pain’
“When I’m at the money machine tonight, I aint lookin over my back for the media! Im looking for…”
you know the rest.
Posted 02 Oct 2008 at 12:18 am ¶
the coconut diaries wrote:
“Never Scared” made me a fan. His insights on rich vs. wealth (Shaquille O’Neal is rich, the guy that signs his checks is wealthy!); married man playdates; and his view of affirmative action and a white “C” student being the president of america were remarkably insightful and funny.
His shit about black women? No so much. More than being pissed, I was disappointed because it was beneath him. Those are amateur comedian jokes. Stuff a 12-year-old boy writes in his basement while he’s watching “Heroes” or “Friday”. After watching him on Larry King managing the whole “aren’t you proud, as a black man, to see Barack running”; I was sad to hear him talk about black women dating white men for their credit scores.
For better or for worse, I expect my Vice Presidential nominees to be more articulate and smarter than I when it comes to politics; I expect Chris to be a higher caliber of comedian.
Posted 02 Oct 2008 at 2:20 pm ¶
octogalore wrote:
Agree with Monica and Renee that this is particularly troubling because of his two daughters. Our stay a couple years ago in HI overlapped with his (of course, they were in a fancy private bungalow and we in a regular-person room!). His daughters and my daughter played a lot in the pool. I don’t think one can read anything in to the fact that his wife and mom seemed to spend significantly more time with the girls than he did. But it’s depressing that, even if he explains to his wife “hey, don’t take this schtick seriously, it’s to attract an audience,” he would want to put out material that unfairly stereotypes black women and girls into a world where girls his daughters’ ages and older will hear it and possibly internalize some of it.
Posted 02 Oct 2008 at 3:36 pm ¶
brownstocking wrote:
@ #38 Rhiannafan:
Rhiannafan wrote:
“See, it’s NOT satire, when you’re not trying to provoke change. ”
BULLSHIT. Look up the definition of satire, it has nothing to do with provoking change. Your definition is completely WRONG.
Obiekaybe: satire is “a work or manner that blends a censorious attitude with humor and wit for improving human institutions or humanity. Satirists attempt through laughter not so much to tear down as to inspire a remodeling” comes from GSU’s rhetorical comp web page.
So what’s YOUR definition?
Chris Rock points out a lot of flaws that women have, is it his fault that some women that have those flaws and wont make the effort to ever change them? I said some women, thats key, I know some women who are like what he says. But I dont want to generalize with all women. Why not generalize? That was the point of Rock’s schtick. To stereotype and generalize us. He put forth tired, lame, unfunny stereotypes and said, “yeah, I said it!” When did he add qualifiers to his routine? He didn’t. Just like Tami said, he (and whomever else wants to follow him down that road) needs to save it for for CBT. Or go get a hug.
At his peak, his comedy WAS thought-provoking and pointing a lens at our society, as good satire does. Remember the 911 jokes, when he was “born to be a suspect”? That’s what he was good at, what he became known and respected for. When he devolved into “women hate me, wah, Black women are mean emasculators” it all went downhill.
I bet if you asked Chris why he hates Black women, he would have answers for you. I don’t think he’d deny it at all. That movie? Come on!
I didn’t find his election jokes about Black folks the day after particularly funny. I didn’t find the sex jokes funny. I laughed at two bits. So that’s my opinion. Which is every bit as valuable as yours.
I won’t say “you’re wrong,” I’ll just assert that I’m right.
Posted 02 Oct 2008 at 5:03 pm ¶
starkitty50 wrote:
I often wonder if Chris has issues with women, I mean, yes, obviously he does. It’s no secret he isn’t the best-looking guy in the world and now that he’s famous, women give him attention. He has an attractive wife who is also intelligent, so he must have had some redeeming qualities to snag her. Good comedy comes from pain and I think that he had been rejected by a lot of women in his life, so this is his opportunity to get revenge. I do respect him as a comedian because his observations about life can be funny, but he goes too far at times criticizing Black women so much.
Posted 03 Oct 2008 at 2:02 am ¶
Katie wrote:
Starkitty – I would hesitate to use his past rejections as a reason for his current misogyny. Everyone gets rejected a few times – or many, many times. Such is life. It doesn’t turn most people into opposite or same-sex haters. It makes most of us just….grow up.
Posted 03 Oct 2008 at 6:52 am ¶
Jaye wrote:
I know this thread is almost ending, but I just saw his special, and I wanted to change my vote about Chris Rock. The show started off so good with the joke about the safari and the tourists taking pictures of him…and it just devolved from there. It was like he took all the parts that I hated the most from his other shows and put them all together for one giant crap special.
And the sad thing is that he had so much to work with…these last few years have been crazy,and I’ve just been dying for him to put out another special. And so I was expecting stuff about George Bush, Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, Scott McClellan, Patreus, torture, habeus corpus, the Clintons, race-baiting, how racial dynamics have changed in the last 10 months, feminism, the wars, manipulation of language, North Korea and Iran…I mean, he did a few jokes about the election, and he had a few moments of brilliance because he is a brilliant guy. But for god’s sake, his jokes about McCain were about McCain being really…old. Wow, didn’t see that coming. The whole thing was just tired, uninspired and pathetic really. I kept on checking to see how much time was left, because about halfway through, it just go too painful to watch. But I didn’t want to stop watching in case he had another brilliant moment, but I also wanted it to just end. He did seem bitter…look, if you make jokes about women and they’re “politically incorrect” but they’re TRUE, I don’t care, I will laugh…but all he did was put forward tired stereotypes everyone’s heard a million times. Going for the easiest, cheapest laughs. I never thought I would say that about Chris Rock. The main message I got from his special was that the secret to a happy relationship, was the woman giving REALLY good blowjobs. Obviously he has a right to his worldview and his opinions, and he has certainly earned the right to say what he wants, but I also have the right to point out that what you’re saying makes you look like a misogynistic, insecure, adolescent jackass. I usually hang onto every word Rock says, but as the show went on and on…and on…I think I started to resent having to look at his face.
Posted 03 Oct 2008 at 4:58 pm ¶
Harpreet wrote:
I have not seen any of Chris Rock’s other stuff, and this was the first time I saw his act so I apologize if my comment is a bit basic.
I’m speaking as a woman in general, and I do not agree with the idea that b/c you are bitter, you lash out against an ENTIRE group of women to make yourself feel better. As a comedian, Chris Rock has a RESPONSIBILITY to entertain his audience with a brilliance that invokes the need to take a closer look at certain issues. I think he failed to do that. Some parts I really enjoyed, but towards the middle-to-end I was simply not laughing. Although I am not African American, I AM a women, and I say that we should CELEBRATE ALL our successful women, and if a man is intimidated by that then he is a coward and is not WORTH IT.
I particularly don’t enjoy bits about interracial relationships because I am in one, and I don’t believe that dating should be categorized by “in race” or “out of race” because then we all risk the chance of missing out on an amazing person, regardless of their racial classification.
It’s truly sad that as a father of DAUGHTERS, Chris Rock would berate women (part. AA women) because his daughters might run accross the same bitter misogyny that he expresses.
We need to do better people.
Posted 04 Oct 2008 at 1:24 am ¶
Eric Daniels wrote:
Please why don’t you please give it a rest about Chris Rock’s relationship with women particularly Black Women. Joan Rivers made her bones talking about her husband Edgar Rosenberg and her failed attempts at love and so does Sarah Silverman and her relationship with Jewish Men and Margret Cho and her failures at sex and love with White Men. It’s only when Black Women who feel so torn asunder when a Black Comedian does his bit about relationships with Black Women do the attenas go up. It’scalled comedy for a reason people, if you don’t want to hear what Rock has to say about modern black relatiosnhips change the channel.
Posted 04 Oct 2008 at 6:35 am ¶
Mikaone wrote:
Open season on black women as usual!! Why dooesn’t Chris Rock do like the other pathological negroes and just make a rap video and put it on BET?! The rant about interracial dating made him look small and pathetic. His comedy special did at least one thing…make a few of my black female friends look at white men with a less jaundiced eye.
Posted 04 Oct 2008 at 6:45 am ¶
Spinster wrote:
I’m a Chris Rock fan, but I, too, have noticed his underlying bitterness toward women and marriage and relationships. I had the privilege of seeing him in New Orleans this summer and he was excellent, but some of his jokes about those particular subjects made me go “hmmm”.
Whereas Dave Chappelle’s work seems to have some underlying message (combating certain stereotypes, not portraying them as true), CR’s work seems to be more self-therapeutic….. in which case he might want to consider seeing a therapist (or get a new one if he’s already seeing one), as suggested by this blog entry.
Posted 05 Oct 2008 at 1:48 pm ¶
Tami wrote:
Eric,
I think most of us here don’t have issues with Rock talking about relationship problems with A woman or SOME women, it is when he broadens his experiences to ALL black women when we have a problem. Many comedians talk about relationships, but it is uniquely black male comedians who denigrate ALL women of their own race. I recall Joan Rivers talking about Edgar, not ALL Jewish men. I have heard white male comedians generalize about women, but never ALL white women.
Posted 05 Oct 2008 at 6:15 pm ¶
abbottdad wrote:
I ran across this site after reading about it on lifehacker. COM. The responses on lifehaCKER WERE s expected , shallow, reactionary and closed-minded.
The piece on Chris Rock was right on. Some may say that critical thinking is on its way out, however, it was refreshing to find a site with balanced views on race on the web. Intelligent, thoughtful as well as provocative. Worthwhile reading. I will bookmark for sure.
Posted 05 Oct 2008 at 10:01 pm ¶
Jaye wrote:
It is Rock refusing to sit still and listen to other people’s crap that has made him the revered comedian he is today. It is because he refused to allow other people to lie to themselves and others that he is so admired. I think he had great respect for Bill Clinton, but when he saw Clinton, the human being, bullshitting and lying (consciously or not), Rock called him out on it on Letterman, because that is who Rock is, and that is why we love him.
And so I think Rock would expect no less of his fans. We love him because he has an uncanny ability to tell the truth and make us see things we otherwise may not have seen without his help. I feel for him, I feel for the fact that he had a very difficult childhood…and the things that he says about certain women, I get it. I see those women too, and I would love for him to tell the truth about them, because I don’t like them either. But he didn’t talk about those women, he generalized about women in a really sad, pathetic way that just wasn’t honest…in the way a lot of white comedians joke about black people or latinos or asians. It was tired, and it was boring, because it wasn’t true. It just regurgitated inaccurate stereotypes, they were cheap laughs. And if Rock is feeling bitter about what happened, I understand. He has certainly risen above really harsh circumstances, and I’ve been amazed by his ability to do that. But if he has basically become a victim of his own pain, I think people have a right to point that out, because if it were him at his best…he would point that out about others too. That’s why we love him, because he tells the truth, no matter how harsh.
And I think Rock would expect that when he is bullshitting others, and himself, that people would call him out on it, the way he has made a career out of calling out other people. I LOVE Rock. I watch Jon Stewart and Colbert and Maher religiously, I think they are amazing and I am grateful for their perceptiveness because they got this country through a really dark time. But in my mind, Rock is easily above all those guys…Rock just has a gift. But if he has started lying to himself, what good does it do to pretend that he isn’t…that’s not to take away from all the amazing things he has done, in the same way that Rock wasn’t trying to take away from all the good that Clinton has done for the black community and the country in general. But where you are now is where you are now, and people have a right to say the truth about that. He did that for Clinton, and I think his fans have the right to say that about him.
Posted 06 Oct 2008 at 4:06 am ¶
Nietzschean wrote:
I’d like to meet the run-o’-the-mill white dentist with the $3 million home.
Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 3:04 am ¶
cub wrote:
if any of you saw rock’s monologue near the beginning of the julia louis-dreyfus-hosted saturday night live a while back, you were treated to a most peculiar tirade against white women and how they have nothing to complain about. now i just thought he was misinformed statistically regarding wage disparity, domestic violence, and crime victimology, but after having read these comments, i know he was channeling eddie murphy’s post break-up revenge-by-standup routine. so sad. also, by the finalé, the female cast members were collected on the opposite end of the stage away from him. his crazy sh!t did not go unnoticed.
Posted 03 Feb 2009 at 9:30 pm ¶
Jalen Joseph wrote:
When is Martin Lawrence coming out with another special? I writhed in discomfort listening to Chris Rock. Is Martin that disdainful to women is his act? I watched Runteldat a few years ago, and I don’t remember Martin Lawrence being that disdainful, making all the remarks about women, painting them in such a negative way
Posted 13 Feb 2009 at 6:15 pm ¶