Quoted (WTF Edition): Dan Savage
For some reason, I have always found Native Americans to be sexually attractive. But the semidark skin and traditional breechcloth thing isn’t easy to find in porn or real life. I was wondering if you had some pointers for someone with a bad case of Native American Jungle Fever.
– Native Amateur“The letter writer is correct,” says Sherman Alexie, a Native American and a National Book Award–winning author who was willing to demean himself by giving me a quote. “There is a dearth of Native American porn.”
But Alexie tells me that once, while hunting for antique board games, he typed “cowboy and Indian action figures” into Google and found his way to a site that featured U.S. Cavalry soldiers and loinclothed Indians smoking more than peace pipes. But that’s all he’s got, pornwise. As for real life…
“There’s just no way your reader is going to find an Indian willing to put on a loincloth for sexual purposes,” says Alexie. “Unless that Indian is a seriously damaged, culturally disconnected, politically unaware, and unsafe-sex-practicing slut.”
I part ways with Alexie here. Not because I know more about Native Americans or Native American kinks. Goodness, no. But over the years, I’ve heard from too many healthy, politically aware, and sexually safe African Americans who dig role-playing slavery scenarios—and too many good Jews who get off on concentration-camp scenarios, and too many polite Canadians who adore clueless-American-tourist scenarios (”Ooh, ask me who our ‘president’ is again!”)—to rule out the possibility that there are smart, safe Native Americans genuinely interested in role-playing cowboys-in-injuns out there somewhere. But they’re gonna be rare, NA.
So what can you do to up your odds of finding the action you seek?
“If the letter writer is an attractive blond female,” says Alexie, “she can head to the next powwow in the region where she lives, pick out a handsome fancydancer, and hit on him. She’ll either get laid in the back of a casino-money-financed SUV or she’ll get assaulted by a roving band of Indian women looking to protect our most precious and dwindling resource: Native American men.”
Dan, I need to know. What bodily function is the opposite of an orgasm? Thanks a lot.
– Could Use More
“Though it’s not exactly a bodily function, the back spasm is the opposite of an orgasm,” says Sherman Alexie, the National Book Award–winning author.“Why did he send that question to Alexie?” some of my readers are no doubt asking themselves. That is a question only a thoughtless bigot would ask and I shouldn’t dignify it with a response. But let’s approach this as a teaching moment: I sent this question to Alexie because he is the father of two and, we can reasonably extrapolate, the haver of orgasms, which more than qualifies him. Back to Alexie:
“While the orgasm is the pleasurable release of stress, the back spasm is the painful reminder of collected and unexpelled stress. I am currently typing one-handed because I am shoving my fist deep into my lower back as some sort of half-assed pressure-point massage. Of course, since the U.S. has become a chair-and-computer culture, the number of people who are currently massaging their wrecked backs is vastly larger than the number who are massaging their sexual organs.”
And when you pause to consider that all of the U.S. and most of Canada were basically built on top of a giant Indian graveyard, I’d say we’re getting off easy with a little lower-back pain.
—Excerpted from Savage Love, “Cowboys-in-Injuns,” published September 4th, 2008.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
WTF, indeed! My reaction comes from:
1) I guess that since Sherman Alexis was helping out, Savage felt he had the cover to say/publish this. (What did you say a while ago here, jvansteepes, about Dan Savage’s race issues?)
2) Though Alexie may a point about Native/Indigenous Americans (beyond the fetish/stereotypes), apparently, it’s such that neither can’t have a decent conversation about “race play” beyond “too many of the folks you think wouldn’t be into it are” or “that ish is effed up.”
Ummm….
Here’s another take on”race play,” from Daisy Hernandez at ColorLines:
http://www.colorlines.com/printerfriendly.php?ID=46
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:03 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
Oops!
Point #2 should say, “Though Alexie may have a point about Native/Indigenous Americans being absent in porn…
Sorry about that.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:05 pm ¶
Mandy B. wrote:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:11 pm ¶
Amelia wrote:
Excuse me? WTF is this? Did those words seriously just come from someone’s brain?
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:16 pm ¶
Jessica Yee wrote:
Holy shit! Excuse me.
It’s not like this “Savage love” seeking person isn’t echoing what many of us in the Native community haven’t experienced at one point in our lives: the outside predator coming in to hunt our sexuality down (because they think we’ll fulfill that “exotic submissive” fantasy of raw sex they can’t seem to visualize with a partner of their own race).
Elders in our communities have long warned us to stay away from those men in trucks who come trolling down rez roads offering drugs, alcohol, money, or just forcing you with all they have to get inside with them.
I’m not directly comparing what this person is seeking in a “cloth Indian” to those bastards in trucks who steal away our children, but there are definitely some similarities of folks who have been trying to get with us their whole lives, and that’s how they end up doing it.
We are sexy, dammit, but stop pedastool-ing and degrading us so you can get your rocks off.
Sherman Alexie does have a point too when he says that ya ain’t gonna find a sane-minded Native who’s really going to do this. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, and to each their own with what you prefer sexually, but last time I checked the majority of Native Americans today aren’t wearing the “traditional breechcloth thing” anymore (or living in teepees, I guess that needs to be clarified for him too).
So who exactly are you talking about?
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:25 pm ¶
OTM wrote:
I part ways with Alexie here. Not because I know more about Native Americans or Native American kinks. Goodness, no. But…
…I’m going to take anecdotes I’ve heard about other damaged, culturally disconnected, and politically unaware people and assume that the exact same circumstances would apply to Native Americans, thus speaking as though I do indeed know more about Native Americans than a Native American and a National Book Award–winning author, even though I would never, heavens know, claim to know more about Native Americans than Sherman Alexie. I AM a sex columnist, after all!!!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:27 pm ¶
Thea Lim wrote:
Way to alienate your readers, Dan.
I’d like to hear what Alexie had to say in response to this column.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:30 pm ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:
I just think it’s funny and annoying what results I get when I type in “Indian” on google (to search for East Indian, btw), and I get a variety of different photos and results. It includes: South Asians, Native Americans, and indigenous Mexicans.
how annoying.
but yeah, Native American porn… not so common. you usually get white girls or brown girls pretending to be someone of a different ethnic race. I’ve seen it too many times in fake-ethnic porn. Barf.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:31 pm ¶
Alexandra wrote:
I usually like Dan Savage’s column’s which are sometimes problematic but still enjoyable and funny as hell. When I read the letter, I was like holy shit someone actually wrote that? Then I thought all right Dan Savage will probably tear them a new one for this…when I read the response my eyes nearly popped out of my head. WTF Dan Savage. The comparison of slavery, Holocaust scenarios to Canadians being asked dumb questions was even better.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:31 pm ¶
Jessica Yee wrote:
Also, since I am a Native sex positive pro-choicer and damn proud of it, yes there is a serious lack of sexy culturally appropriate and respectful material out there with us in it. We’re working on it.
Some good resources to check out though:
Anishinaabe writer Kateri Akiwenzie-Damm ’s Without Reservation: Indigenous Erotica
Canada’s leading Aboriginal magazine SPIRIT published their first SEX issue thatI wrote more about here:
http://www.shamelessmag.com/blog/2008/05/its-exposed-and-in-control-so-read-spirit/
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:35 pm ¶
Pololly wrote:
Well, OTM – Latoya’s friend claimed he was politically, socially and racially aware and he wanted a white women to tie him up and call him Toby. So it’s possible that Dan Savage has a point.
I think his point is that he has people from all walks of life asking him about insane things which are just wrong wrong wrong (to me!) and presumably if someone is into voyeuristic black/white race play, he’s more likely to know them than even a member of said race. I don’t know ANY black people who wanna be tied up like slaves BUT Latoya knows one and apparently Dan knows a few so who knows!!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:35 pm ¶
Elena Perez wrote:
Somewhat related, I just did a post on racism against Native Americans in the comics: http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2008/09/sunday-comics-2.html
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:44 pm ¶
OTM wrote:
I’m not saying that DS hasn’t encountered such things (from what I’ve read in his column, he certainly has!), I’m saying that by extrapolating these anecdotes to Native American experience, he is doing what he claims he’d never do in the immediately preceding sentience – claim to know more about Native American experience than a man who writes award winning books about Native American experience. He generalizing about an entire culture based on some anecdotal experience with a few individuals in a different culture, in contradiction to the statements of somebody who actually knows what he’s talking about.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:44 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Pololly –
I’ve been apoplectic over the trans posts, so I didn’t have the opportunity to come through and remind people of that. (He also wanted to me smacked around, but apparently he’s just freaky like that.)
So, I’m not mad at Dan going “I’m sure there’s some Native American somewhere who wants it” because it’s true – there probably is someone, somewhere down with that. (For the record, I also knew an (read: just one) Asian girl down with the “love you long time” shit. I think some people just like fucking with the taboo.)
This earned a WTF from me (I should apply a retroactive WTF for the Joe Francis one, while I’m thinking about it) for these reasons:
1. No comment on why it may not be such a good idea to approach random strangers with race play requests for sex. (My friend tended to establish a working sexual relationship first before just dropping it on someone.)
2. No mention that minorities might be slightly hesitant to hook up with someone with a racialized sexual kink. I mean, some of us are down for that kind of play, but we want you to like us for us too, not just to be your fantasy.
3. That half ass throwaway justification at the end:
And when you pause to consider that all of the U.S. and most of Canada were basically built on top of a giant Indian graveyard, I’d say we’re getting off easy with a little lower-back pain.
WTF? “We almost killed all the natives, so play nice!” Shit. That Tyra segment on Native Americans and Hollywood is looking better and better…
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:47 pm ¶
OTM wrote:
Addendum to my previous comment: personally I have zero experience of opinions about Native Americans and porn, but I certainly would defer to Sherman Alexie and Jessica Yee, the commenter above, rather than assert that since I know of a black guy who has a fetish for reenacting slave scenarios, the same must be true for Native American people. That’s my problem with the column – DS’s assumption that he knows more about Native American’s sex lives, based on his knowledge of the sex lives of Jews, African Americans, and Canadians.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:48 pm ¶
waxghost wrote:
I want to ask Dan, how exactly does the conversation go in the search for a Native American who will demean themselves like that? “Excuse me, I notice you are Native American. I have this absurd fetish for Native Americans in loincloths. Even though I probably can’t accurately pick a Native American out of a crowd and your tribe (assuming the majority of NAs) probably never wore loincloths in the first place and would be insulted by the idea that they did, care to join me?”
Alexie’s response is a little insulting too, though. It really goes without saying here, but Native Americans are not automatically attracted to any and all blond white girls!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:53 pm ¶
Renee wrote:
There are a thousand degrees of wrong within the Savage commentary. The very idea of a white man wanting an Native woman to dress in a certain way for his titillation is disgusting to say the least. That he could not see the racism and sexism in his commentary is further proof of the audacity of whiteness.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶
Arturo wrote:
I submit this as explanation, and not excuse: isn’t this all part of Savage’s schtick? Maybe that’s where the issue lies.
Overall, though, I can’t speak as to the fetish thing — everybody likes something that somebody else doesn’t — other than to say, I’ve met a few women who, uh, appreciate “conversation” in Spanish from time to time.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 1:10 pm ¶
BusTard wrote:
Having been intimately associated with the Los Angeles fetish underground—two of the writers for a rag I usta publish for fifteen years worked at La Chateau, for one aspect—I must state that this desire for a balance (i.e., jews desiring concentration camp scenarios is not much different than white businessmen/politicians wanting to experience a total loss of control while permanently bound) is not related to race. It is a human desire. Just as “good” cannot be determined without something being “bad,” so too is it that the most fundamental desire—meaning sex, which is the basis of life in every way—needs to have balance.
As this topic is rarely discussed, there will be a great amount of incompetence in most folks’ attempts to convey their carnal desires, but there you go. In time, perhaps, a semblance of respect will grow from discussion of it.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 2:01 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ Arturo–…and if you’re down with those woman appreciating “conversations” in Spanish from time to time, that’s you and your sex thang. But what if the *first* thing that comes out of a woman’s mouth upon laying eyes on you walking down the street is, “Yeah, I want you to dress up as x-Latino stereotype and tell me how you’re going to f*** me in Spanish.” No name, no introductions, no setting where there’s a semblance of even trying to get to know you and figure out whether or not you’re into doing such a thing–nothing. Just the fact that she approached you like that simply because she felt she could, whatever race or ethnicity she may be. Correct me if I’m wrong, Jessica (#5) and Latoya, but I think that where their objections stem.
@ Renee–I truly feel where you’re coming from–trust me, it’s hard for me to write what I’m about to write because race play hits my sex-positive boundaries hard. That’s why I have some empathy for your position.
But….again, race play deals with race, gender, stereotypes, want/desire, and taboo (among other things). If that particular white man and that particular Native/Indigenous woman wish to play that way because those two reached a consensus and negotiate the boundaries, well, that’s that couple, whatever *our* feelings and judgments are about it, friend.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 2:30 pm ¶
Angel H. wrote:
Beautiful!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 2:33 pm ¶
TheDiversePurse wrote:
@Deaf Feminist Punk! : So true. As a Polynesian myself, it’s very rare to see someone who is Polynesian in porn (good or bad?), but there are PLENTY of distributers who will put a flower in an Asian woman’s hair and call her Hawaiian. SMDH.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 2:47 pm ¶
PseudoAdrienne wrote:
Ugh. So much exotic-Othering crap. I think I’m getting an ulcer from the general public’s constant sexual and socio-cultural stupidity and stereotyping. And this is yet another example of the decline of American journalism. It’s becoming more and more puerile gossip-centric and the printed masturbation-sessions of its “journalists.” I’m surprised we haven’t seen a rise of suicide-rates among professors of journalism, literature, and English.
“That Tyra segment on Native Americans and Hollywood is looking better and better…”
Oh goodness! You’re so supposed to love yourself! Stop watching Tyra (and any other daytime – and reality-show shit)!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 3:06 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
Dammit! I did it again! This:
it’s hard for me to write what I’m about to write because race play hits my sex-positive boundaries hard
No pun intended, y’all.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 3:10 pm ¶
Rumble wrote:
umm. Am I the only one that had no problem with what Dan wrote? I’ve read him for a long while and this is consistent with his general attitudes toward other peoples fetishes. If humiliation is your thing, your partner doesn’t mind and he/she understands that it is only ok in the bedroom, then go for it. It doesn’t matter if that humiliation entails having pies thrown at your face or being called a racial slur or being led around on a leash.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 3:29 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:
@TCS
I just clicked on the Daisy Hernandez link you attached in your first post: awesome. You could drive a truck through the space between her take, which is sex-positive while being sensitive to the racial/ethnic histories of sexual abuse that might get activated by race play, and Savage’s, which fails at both. That is what floors me about this: Dude is a sex columnist and his sex advice is as shit as the racial nonsense in this post. It could have been a perfect teaching moment about race play and instead he just made a lame racist joke out of it…Why is this guy a famous sex expert?
I think this is a message from the universe that it is time to write your book.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 4:12 pm ¶
Renee wrote:
ther than to say, I’ve met a few women who, uh, appreciate “conversation” in Spanish from time to time. This is completely different than wanting to play cowboys and Indians and re inact some of the worst atrocities of American History. This is neo colonialism at its finest.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 4:43 pm ¶
Free wrote:
This is just a reminder of why I can’t stand Seattle and why I was so happy when four years ago I was on a red-eye out of that hipster-dipster-snobbish-racist and small minded town masquerading as a city. Savage and that rag he edits ….BLECH!
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 5:30 pm ¶
conpermiso wrote:
i feel so confused here. what’s wrong with the post? it could have descended into racialized hackery at any point, but Alexie’s sense of timing and earthy sense of humor saved the column at a number of points. while DS can be an asshole at times, i thought he handled this column pretty well.
and for heavens sakes…straights DON’T always know jack about kink. Savage’s point about knowing more about race kink is still valid because i’m sure he’s seen more kinky stuff than most straights…that’s what he gets paid to do.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 5:36 pm ¶
kakodaimon wrote:
Yeah, the graveyard thing was an extra touch of class. Honestly… as if that qualifies as an anti-racist comment (actually, for many people it solidifies the “Aboriginal cultures are dead cultures” misconception).
Oh Dan…
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 5:54 pm ¶
Ange wrote:
Wait people still read DS? What with the fatphobic, transphobic, classist and racist ramblings of this guy, I just don’t get it.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 6:27 pm ¶
Mammith wrote:
God, race play disturbs me so fricken much, since 9/11 people from my sort of background have been in big demand from certain folks. Add that to the perception that all of us are dirty sexual predators and you have a whole bunch of BS flying around.
I’ve read a lot of arguments that race play is just another type of ‘acting dirty’ I can understand it, just like I can understand why rape fantasies and the like appeal to some people. It doesn’t stop me thinking it’s f***** up though.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 6:56 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:
I am actually shocked that Dan Savage didn’t bungle this even more.
As TCS has mentioned, I have my issues with Mr Savage… I haven’t read his column regularly since I was a teen, but I remember that the article that made him dead to me was one in which a gay black man wrote in to point out that Ashton Kutcher [DS's muse] was making a show called Punk’d, which is problematic because of it’s racialized legacy. Savage simply chided the guy, saying that the REAL problems gay black people face stem from [you guessed it] the monolithic and homogeneously anti-gay black community.
I think he has tried to improve on this which is why he contacted Alexie, and I’d be curious to hear Alexie’s take on the quality of their dialogue. It does look like he decided to feature a Native voice and then felt entitled to speak arrogantly as usual as if he had his bases covered.
Also since when does simply being Canadian compare with having genocidal history looming over you? That’s like comparing slavery to being forced to wait in line at the bank or something.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 7:00 pm ¶
J wrote:
While I certainly advocate strong respect for everyone, and a certain deference to those within certain groups about those groups, I don’t get all the comments about “Dan doesn’t know about Native Americans more than Alexie does.” He doesn’t claim to — he’s essentially claiming to know more about “human nature” — that is, people want many different things for different reasons within ALL groups. If Native Americans DIDN’t contain at least SOME people who want to sexually play around this area, it would seemingly only be because there are so comparatively few of them; how dare we presume ALL Native Americans are one way or another?
Now, there’s a good case to be made about whether or not people SHOULD act different ways, and while DS should perhaps have taken the racial overtones more seriously, he has many many times in the past mentioned the importance of separation of fantasies — where he asserts anything should go between consenting adults, and I tend to agree — and politics and stereotypes.
That’s a much longer argument, but I consider it a form of racism — a lesser one, but racism still – to presume essentialisms for any group, such that NAs are such a different group that the thousands, if not millions of letters Savage has received from which he can make generalizations about people is not, actually, a singular expertise — he wasn’t, after all, arguing with someone who purported to be an expert on Native American sex lives, even. Would Alexie have that kind of specialized knowledge to outweigh the fact of huge variations within every human culture, such the variations between are sometimes less than the variations within?
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 9:08 pm ¶
J wrote:
I suppose I should preemptively clarify — I agree that fantasies between consenting adults should be respected and, to some extent, reserved from judgment if they otherwise comport themselves as enlightened, truth-seeking individuals who don’t assume essentialisms about women, minorities, or almost anyone else, and instead are open to *learning* other perspectives and the realization of various very real forms of oppression.
That said, in culture or media, I feel that sexual fantasies very much are open to be judged, debated, and to the extent possible, made not to advance sexist and racist elements of our culture but to fight them. The sexualization of “The Other” is an important area of study and conflict, and should be dealt with on a cultural level. I just believe that, correspondingly, people should be dealt with at their own personal, idiosyncratic level, and not simply judged for their fantasies or fetishes, which are to some extent, beyond our control.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 9:13 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ Renee–This is completely different than wanting to play cowboys and Indians and re inact some of the worst atrocities of American History. This is neo colonialism at its finest.
Again, friend, that–like any sex act, including play–depends on who’s into it. For me, I wouldn’t dare ask a lover who’s Latino to converse with me in Spanish for the explicit purpose of getting me off. To me, I’d feel like I was othering zie through language; all Latin@s don’t speak Spanish, and it’s presumptuous (and stereotyping) for me to think–and ask– otherwise. The race play that Dan Savage is advocating fall on the other end of that sexually othering spectrum–and both ends rub my sex-positivity the wrong way. Especially when folks feel they can just step into me like that. To me, that’s just not OK.
But, again, Renee, that’s me. Other people have negotiated and formed consensual sexual relationships around race play–like Latoya’s friend–and that’s them. I know that’s not a satisfactory answer, but that’s some folks’ sexual realities, however we may feel about it. As the saying goes, it is what it is.
@ Mammith–you and I hold similiar opinions on rape fantasies: having survived a rape myself (and I was very young when I was raped), I absolutely don’t get that form of play, period. That’s why I couldn’t think to do that–or race play, for that matter–in my sex life. But there’s a difference between saying “I have my reasons for not wanting to do that in my sex life” and “that’s effed up.” One is a boundary one decides to set up in one’s life; the other is a blanket judgment that those who are into it–and you may never know who’s into race play; it could be your best friend who’s not telling you about it–would find offensive. Reason being is, ultimately, what they’ve sexually consented to isn’t bothering you, so why are you judging it?
Does that make sense?
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 10:18 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ Joseph–thanks for the compliment, friend. But what on earth would I write about?:-D
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 10:25 pm ¶
RainaWeather wrote:
What the hell was that?
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 1:23 am ¶
Black Canseco wrote:
I’ve been reading Savage since SL started in the Chicago Reader in the early 90s… when it comes t cross sections of race/ethnicity and sex, DS is pretty much of an obstinant insufferable ass. He chooses quite often not see beyond his own Northside of Chicago/Boys Town foundation and judges/dismisses everyone else accordingly.
in short, par for the course.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 1:42 am ¶
balom wrote:
The reason why there is a dearth of Native American porn is not because of some sort of feelings of pride or dignity. It’s because there are so few Native Americans left and many of them live in a state of quasi Apartheid separated from mainstream society. Pornographers operate in cities they don’t go around on some forgotten reservation to recruit people
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 3:14 am ¶
Mammith wrote:
@The Cruel Secretary – Yeah it makes perfect sense. I think though that personally I never usually judge any consensual sexual act as ‘immoral’ it’s just that with race and sex, it goes into identity issues and lots of historical colonialist/power issues, etc.
Also won’t race play always be a part of fetishization of the other? If you’re in any sort of relationship with someone I really don’t think you should be thinking about them in those terms.
My mind can’t wrap myself around race play ever coming from a good place but I’d love to read some studies on it regardless.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 6:43 am ¶
atlasien wrote:
I’m not ready to condemn or excuse Dan Savage. Where the line is drawn for me is how private fetishes negatively affect people who don’t care to participate in them.
If two consenting adults get off on race-based humiliation stuff, I really believe it’s none of my business. I don’t want to tell anyone what they can and can’t get excited by.
The problem is, the stuff doesn’t stay private. There are networks of semi-public communication in order to hook these people up, make money marketing to them and promote and publicize the fetish.
The massive industry around Asian woman porn is a good example. I used to have no interest in it at all, but it still negatively affected me. Because of that industry, a lot of men really believe it’s OK to walk up to random Asian women and say “I like Asian women” (or much worse). So now I actively dislike it.
By making the “cowboy and Indians” fetish public in his column, Dan Savage just negatively affected a lot of people who have experienced pain because of the stereotypes involved.
He does have the right to talk about this stuff… and it’s in line with his column’s theme. He could have done it more responsibly though, realizing that he’s digging at an open sore.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 7:04 am ¶
lxy wrote:
Re: Dan Savage.
A post-hipster planet cannot cum … er come too soon.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 7:24 am ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@atlasien–He does have the right to talk about this stuff… and it’s in line with his column’s theme. He could have done it more responsibly though, realizing that he’s digging at an open sore.
My thoughts exactly.
@lxy–”A post-hipster planet cannot cum … er come too soon.”
LMAO! Co-sign.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 7:58 am ¶
Andrew wrote:
I’m curious as to what commenters would make of this short story:
Starring Charlie Self as Tomahawk Missile
A person with issues?
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 9:22 am ¶
MizDarwin wrote:
CS–Let me add to the chorus of thanks for the Daisy Hernandez piece. VERY thoughtprovoking.
Dan Savage is just a straight-up tool, no offense to straight-up tools everywhere. He’s misogynist, judgmental based on no real criteria of judgment other than his own tastes, and he verbally abuses the people who write in to him. (Seriously–have you noticed how often people begin their letters with “I know you’re going to yell at me for this” or whatever–any advice columnist who’s giving off that vibe needs to take a break.) I also don’t like his habit of using questions as a jumping-off point to talk about gay rights or other political issues–fine, those are important, so WRITE about them. But if people are writing in to you, you either publish their question with a good-faith attempt at an answer, or you don’t. What he does just seems wrong.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 9:29 am ¶
dave wrote:
@atlasien: I agree, he def could have done that more responsibly.
@J: I like your distinction of cultural analysis existing separate from personal analysis.
@Cruel Secretary: regarding race play and rape fantasies, I feel similarly to you. They strongly test being actively sex-positive in response, and ride a fine line between that and being begrudgingly sex-positive. But I find the self-reflexivity that comes from those moments to be a good source of empathy for, say, folks who have to try really hard to not get judgmental on queer or trans folk. For me it barely registers, and its easy to get upset with people who “don’t get it.” But by living in/with that reluctant acceptance of rape/race play, I feel like I know better how to have discussions with folks who want to be open-minded but find their run into walls when faced with practices that make them uncomfortable.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 11:57 am ¶
dave wrote:
Oh oops, I just want to qualify that by “living in/with that reluctance acceptance,” I mean conversationally. I’m neither disclosing personal bedroom practices or encouraging those practices, just referring to conversation/analysis/discussion.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 12:02 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:
@TCS
Oh, I’m sure you’ll think of something…:)
Your reply to Renee (#36) is exactly what I wanted and didn’t get from Savage. I’m telling you, it is a sign…ignore it at your peril!
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 12:13 pm ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:
For somewhat related postings, see “Kinky Indian Sex” (http://www.bluecorncomics.com/kinkysex.htm) and “The Rez Dog Calendar: Role Models or Sex Objects?” (http://www.bluecorncomics.com/rezdog.htm).
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 12:36 pm ¶
Sin Vergüenza wrote:
@Renee
Why would you assume that the writer is a hetero white male looking for a native woman? I didn’t read anything in the letter that indicated as much. Did I miss something? Because, last I checked, whitey didn’t hold a monopoly over exoticizing an ethnic other.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 2:29 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ dave–ummmm…what? In re-reading my responses, I don’t see where I’m “upset” at someone for being unaccepting of a particular practice (in this case, race play or rape fantasies) or being unaccepting of those practices beyond my saying I wouldn’t do it in my sex life. If Renee or Mammith feels that I was upset at them, I ask that they let me know. If I’m not mistaken, Mammith said he saw my point, dave; Renee hasn’t responded.
Also, if I’m not mistaken, I said that even though race play and rape fantasies rub my sense of sex-positivity the wrong way for personal reasons and, because of that, push against my sex-positive boundaries, I also said that the reality is people are very much into both of them, regardless of how I or other people feel about it–that, to me, is the definition of “reluctant acceptance.”
In other words, dave, I think you and I are agreeing.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 2:47 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ Joseph (#49)–LMAO! You are completely foolicious, Friend of My Mind.
I’ll take what you said under consideration. Between you and Sewere, I swear…
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 3:04 pm ¶
Arturo wrote:
Cruel Secretary,
what if the *first* thing that comes out of a woman’s mouth upon laying eyes on you walking down the street is, “Yeah, I want you to dress up as x-Latino stereotype and tell me how you’re going to f*** me in Spanish.” No name, no introductions, no setting where there’s a semblance of even trying to get to know you and figure out whether or not you’re into doing such a thing–nothing. Just the fact that she approached you like that simply because she felt she could, whatever race or ethnicity she may be.
Only if she promises to speak like a Valley Girl.
I kid, I kid. Didn’t want you to think I’d ignored your contributions to the thread — good stuff, all around.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 6:37 pm ¶
DJA wrote:
I think eveyone is way off base here. The guy is gay, he’s obviously describing a Native American man. Everyone knows Native women don’t wear loin clothes.
Posted 24 Sep 2008 at 1:49 am ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
::puts Arturo in head lock and gives a noogie::
Posted 24 Sep 2008 at 7:47 am ¶
Jess wrote:
After reading through this I am still confused. Dan Savage made it clear he can’t speak for Native folks — that’s why he went to Sherman Alexie — and he also made it clear that just because someone might think such play is messed up (heck, I do) that doesn’t mean there isn’t anyone out there who would do it.
Look, I saw this documentary a long while back, Framing Lesbian Fashion by Karen Everett (who as a year ahead of me at Berkeley when she made it, shout to Cal). I remember this scene with a black woman in bondage gear. Chains and all that. I thought “Damn, this is really… weird.” As a Jew, I can’t get into playing “concentration camp inmate” for anyone, and that struck me the same way.
But obviously there is someone out there who digs it. More power to ‘em, I guess.
I’ve read Savage for a long time. I have to say he’s usually pretty up front about things, and I would hardly describe him as a misogynist. I mean, he was up front about how many gay men react to female genitalia, but that has more to do with, you know, being gay I think, than it does with hating women per se. (Yes, gay men can be misogynists. But that isn’t the vibe I get from Savage).
He’s also trying to approach this with a sense of humor (and the sense I get from Alexie is the same, judging by the last part of the response). How the heck else can you respond to something like that? Loudly condemn and say they are jerks? Well, maybe. But that wouldn’t be much help, and I could see some people right here getting all over him for that.
Obviously the person writing has some issues. That’s him (or probably her, I suspect). But people’s kinks are people’s kinks. Within reason (no kids or animals) it’s no sin to try and find a way to channel it, making sure you are with a consenting adult. What else would people here do?
I’ve met the occasional black gay man who knew that the white dude was getting into “jungle fantasies” (their term) with them. I asked “why the hell are you with someone like that?” and the response varied, but at some level I have to think they didn’t mind for whatever reason. So there are folks out there, you know?
Posted 24 Sep 2008 at 8:18 am ¶
Andrew wrote:
No response. Oh well.
Posted 24 Sep 2008 at 8:50 am ¶
Lelielle wrote:
I heard a good review for a book called “Me Sexy” about Canadian First nations sexuality, that is apparently quite an entertaining and informative read, I have been trying to acquire a copy- you rarely hear about their experiences around sexuality which sorta keeps the group fetishized I think.
Posted 26 Sep 2008 at 4:32 pm ¶