Isis’ History Making Debut

by Guest Contributor Monica Roberts, originally published at Transgriot

The highly anticipated debut of America’s Next Top Model Cycle 11 premiered last night on the CW with all eyes on Isis, the show’s first open transgender contestant.

She was featured in the background of a photo shoot in a previous cycle and is a legitimate contestant competing in this one. Y’all know I’m rooting for sis to win.

The fact that Isis is competing became big news to most of the world, but it’s not a surprise to me. Top Model has long had rumors of possible stealth transwomen contestants and they decided to come out of the closet with a secret that fashion industry insiders have long known.

A few of the girls strutting their stuff on the catwalk are transwomen.

Top Model judge and noted fashion photographer Nigel Barker stated in a recent interview, “One of the things about the fashion industry, is that there have been many transgender models over the years. It’s very legitimate in our industry. It’s a bit shocking for prime-time TV, but it opens peoples’ eyes.”

During the 2003 Cricket World Cup that was hosted by South Africa, Zimbabwe was allowed to compete despite its horrendous human rights record and some protests against human rights violations and homophobic statements by its president Robert Mugabe.

When the month long event opened with a globally televised Olympic style opening ceremony in Cape Town, each of the 14 participating teams was led into the stadium by a model. Zimbabwe was led onto the field by a Senegalese born model who worked in South Africa and Italy named Barbara Diop. During the first week of competition it got leaked to the press that Barbara was a transwoman. That prompted outrage from Zimbabwe’s head homophobe and threats to pull out of the competition.

It’s no shock to people who follow the ballrooom community either. FYI, one of the ball categories is called runway, and as Isis Tsunami she was wrecking nerves and making a name for herself. It’s been rumored for years that ballroom legend Tracy Africa went from walking balls in the 90’s to getting paid walking the runways in New York and the fashion capitals of Europe.

Isis is the one who is fortunate enough and has the God given opportunity to break through to mainstream modeling success.

But back to Top Model. I applaud Tyra and the show for taking the bold step to include her. I haven’t had a chance to look at the replay, so I’ll judge later on whether the show is handling Isis with grace and sensitivity.

I know some of the transgender haters have already come out of the closet, and we’ll probably see the same from some of Isis’ fellow contestants. I hope she continues to handle this with style and grace even in the face of nasty and ignorant comments from some of her competitors and the Faux news masses.

But this is nothing less than a Jackie Robinson moment just as it was when various African-American models did things in the fashion industry that no one else had done before, including Ms. Banks.

Yeah, it’s a reality TV show. But it’s what we African-American transpeople have to work with until we get mainstream media to actually interview African-American transgender people who are opinion makers and leaders in this community.

Isis is breaking down stereotypes, and as any minority group member can tell you, old stereotypes die hard. It’s an evolutionary step in our ongoing coming out process to first class citizenship and taking our rightful place at the African-American family table.

Even though Isis may look at it as if she’s doing this alone, doing it for herself and fulfilling a dream to become a model, she’s not.

Like Jackie Robinson fifty-one years ago, she’s got the hopes and aspirations of many African-American transgender people and the ballroom community walking with her.

Edited: I know we are new dealing with trans-issues here, but please do not make disparaging comments about thin women, trans models, or gay men. We know the modeling industry promotes standards of beauty that are unattainable to most – but that is not the purpose of this article. The purpose of this article is to discuss Isis breaking barriers on television. – LDP

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Privilege « What If on 20 Sep 2008 at 12:11 am

    [...] 20 September, 2008 @ 12:11 am } · { thoughts } { Tags: privilege } Reading a thread on Racialicious recently, I was a little stunned to realize a hallmark of privilege that I’ve never seen [...]

  2. Isis Tsunami « Questioning Transphobia on 20 Sep 2008 at 10:23 pm

    [...] Monica Roberts has a post about Isis here, which Racialicious has also hosted here. Da Kitteh Korner has also written a post about Isis, and talks about the ways that Isis’ [...]

Comments

  1. emfole wrote:

    Hell yea! Trans visibility!! rock on!!

  2. dave wrote:

    yeah its really exciting. there’s a trans woman in “i want to look for diddy” as well, so hopefully the reality tv is just starting the wave.

  3. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    I don’t understand why people are so against transgender/transsexuals while being open-minded to the gay and lesbian community.

    It’s people’s bodies and their lives, folks. Let them be who and what they want to be.

    that said, I am also rooting for Isis, although I don’t watch Top Model, cos that show sucks.

  4. miwome wrote:

    I think they’ve been pretty good about it. The impression I got from the first episode was that the producers were rooting for her–the phobic girls were all the ones who had already been introduced to us as bitches, and they gave positive or open-minded reactions a lot of airtime. All of the official fashion industry people have been very chill, which is not surprising.

    Bonus: we get to avoid all the “OMG lesbian! giggle giggle wanna kiss?” crap ANTM normally comes up with when there’s a lesbian in the house (there’s been a little of it with Alina this time around, but not bad.)

  5. Genevieve wrote:

    It’s funny, I was waiting to see if you guys were going to handle this show at all. :D

    There was already an episode with some tension between one girl in particular and Isis, which kind of escalated into a racial thing; the TV w/o Pity synopsis is here, but I recommend you watch it for yourself because TVWOP likes to exaggerate for the sake of the joke.

  6. Genevieve wrote:

    Ope, wrong link. Here is the correct episode, the first link is the “followup”.

  7. RobynT wrote:

    My husband pointed out that there is no way they’ll let Isis win–what with the winner going on the cover of Seventeen. That will never fly. We were also worried that she was going to go home this week, with the show totally just using her for publicity for the first couple episodes. That didn’t happen, but she also didn’t do so good this week… I guess the swimsuit might’ve made her nervous… I wondered if they did that on purpose…

  8. jvansteppes wrote:

    I love that ball culture is mentioned here because though it has long influenced [and been appropriated by] pop stars like Madonna, I don’t think I ever saw any recognition of any of the major players in the scene on mainstream TV until Willy Ninja [who I'm sad to say has since passed away] appeared on ANTM. If Tyra is the one that made that happen I’m impressed.

    Art history buffs may also remember the story of Salvador Dali’s flash-in-a-pan pop star girlfriend, Amanda Lear, who was always rumored to be TS and used it to create her own enigma in the press. Look her up on Youtube and you will giggle, the special effects are quite something.

    I’m so thrilled to see trans people’s issues popping up on Racialicious, particularly because the trans and queer communities are often white dominated and don’t offer a full picture of queer/trans life. Did any of you get a chance to see Mangoes with Chili? It’s a great POC queer and trans cabaret show that knocked my socks off when it came to town.

  9. DaKittehKorner wrote:

    @ miwome-

    I noticed that too, but I think that a lot of the stuff that seemed to be open-minded interactions actually weren’t. How all the other women sat around Isis on the first day asking her specific questions about her body, and how Tyra asked her about her surgery status, those things have this subtle effect of showing that Cis people feel they have the right to (however nicely) demand information from trans folks about their bodies that they would never dream to ask another Cis person. IMO, it just enforces the idea that Cis folks feel they own trans bodies, and especially trans bodies of color.

    I’m also really excited that Racialicious is starting to report more on trans stuff. Yayay!

  10. Lisa J wrote:

    Can someone please define CIS? I tried googling it and looking it up on wikipedia but all sorts of things not related to CIS came up, and I’ve seen it mentioned several times on this site and a few others. (and I really am not trying to demand information in an insensitive way, I promise :-)

  11. RJG wrote:

    @DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!!’s “I don’t understand why people are so against transgender/transsexuals while being open-minded to the gay and lesbian community. “

    Hell you have gay and lesbian communities giving trans hate at times, let alone feminist communities (all the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival Womyn-Born-Womyn Policy issues and whatnot).

    So even the groups who are finally getting some open-minded treatment are being as close minded as those they’re hoping to have be more open-minded toward them (that last line makes sense right?).

    Not to delve too deep into your “this post isn’t about that” postscript, while I’m no huge fan of the modeling industry, this is one step toward making it not what it is in the first place.

    The entire issue, AFAIK, revolves around beauty standards and whatnot, and I think a trans model being noted as someone who is a good model is one step unstandardizing that standard.

  12. RJG wrote:

    @Lisa J:

    CIS is short for Cisgender.

    AFAIK (and from what I think the wiki entry supports), Cisgender is the other end of Transgender. Cisgender means that your mental gender matches your physical gender. Brain of a dude in the body of a dude and whatnot.

    If someone already commented this and it just wasn’t approved while I was typing, sorry for the repetition, and I’m hoping I got this entire definition right.

  13. Laya wrote:

    Like a lot of others, I’m seriously rooting for Isis. ANTM, while gleefully exploiting conflicts over race, class, and sexuality between the contestants, has been quietly slipping people who do not fit into “traditional” gender or sexuality roles into the supporting cast. On what other non-cable show w/could you have Mr. Jay and Miss Jay? And not just as props to Tyra, but as central figures in the makeup of the show? Benny Ninja, the Aswirl Twins, Sutan (the makeup artist, who gets more and more face time every season) – and there are a lot more I’m forgetting. So it didn’t surprise me that the show decided to take Isis seriously. Especially since she totally showed up half the girls last season.

    Do I think they’re partly motivated by ratings? Of course – it is TV after all. I mean, this is the show that asked Whitney to put on weight prior to the show so that Tyra could finally have her plus size winner.

  14. brianjkoscuiszka wrote:

    Out of genuine curiosity, what exactly is meant my transgender? I understand the term generally speaking, but isn’t it an umbrella term for people who identify in various ways? I guess I’m just curious exactly what ‘type’ of transgender Isis is. Not that it matters, I’m just trying to better understand the situation.

    I apologize if this question is in any way offensive. I am trying to educate myself better and risk exposing myself as still ignorant, but I feel that this is a great place/time to learn more.

  15. DaKittehKorner wrote:

    For me, Cissexual means that a person’s physical sex and subconcious sex match up, a man born into a “male” body or a woman born into a “female” body. (What exactly makes one body male and one body female is a another thing entirely)

    There’s also the term Cisgender which for me means someone who’s gender presentation (what they wear, how they style their hair) or behavior (being aggressive or emotional) matches with society’s expectations for that gender. And Cism is the belief that trans gender identities are less important, and less authentic than Cis gender identities.

    @ brian
    Transgender, for me, is an umbrella term that means someone who’s gender identity and/or presentation doesn’t match with how society genders them. Just a few of the gender identities that fit under it are transexual, genderqueer, androgynous, femme, butch, fetch, cross-dresser, drag and faux queen and king and drag performer.

    For your question about Isis’s specific “type of transgender,” that is not really something I can answer, Isis can answer that for herself if she wants to. I think she identifies as born in the wrong body, which is what she said in her interview on the first episode. Your question, while well-meaning, offended me a little. I think it hit the crux of the “problem” trans folks present to cis society. Most of the time society can’t tell what gender we “really” are, or what we’ve had done and haven’t had done (information which cis folks and others will use to judge if we really “are” or “aren’t” our gender, and in the process invalidate our own sense of gender identity.) What I love about Racialicious is that it gives me the opportunity to learn more, so I encourage you to keep learning, the wikipedia stuff on transness is ok, and there’s also t-vox http://t-vox.org/index.php?title=Main_Page which is a wikipedia for trans and gender variant folks. Transgriot, where this post originally came from is an awesome blog, and Whipping Girl by Julia Serano is a great book, there’s also a lot of personal narratives you can find on youtube if you type in MTF (male to female) FTM (female to male) and/or genderqueer.

  16. Lleeo wrote:

    Transgender, for me, is an umbrella term that means someone who’s gender identity and/or presentation doesn’t match with how society genders them. Just a few of the gender identities that fit under it are transexual, genderqueer, androgynous, femme, butch, fetch, cross-dresser, drag and faux queen and king and drag performer.

    Wow, I had no idea so many gender identities even existed but it makes sense. I’ve heard most of them at some point or another and never really considered some of them specifically ‘gender identities.’ Thanks, DaKittehKorner!

    I’m a big reader of romance novels and I remember this discussion we were having on a romance blog about this one romance author who was trans-gendered–or whose gender pro-noun seemed to have changed over time from female to male. The topic of discussion wasn’t really about his trans identity but more about him possibly falsifying e-book sale records or something but the discussion quickly turned to his changing gender identity and some people started making some pretty narrow-minded comments that I just felt exemplified some of the negative stereotypes that exist right now about the trans community.

    For example, some people were accusing him of arbitrarily “switching” between genders and “sitting on the fence.” One poster even pronounced, “It’s so annoying that he can’t even make up his own mind!” I just found that so narrow-minded and offensive. Why should he (I’m using this pronoun because his author blog proclaimed him to be male) have to definitively have to “make up his mind”? Why can’t he identify how he wants to at any given time? This just seemed to underlie, for me, the concept of ownership that one of the posters above mentioned. Like non-trans individuals need trans individuals to make everything comprehensible about their identity now, right NOW because they have a right to know and not be confused or uncomfortable when dealing with them.

    When I mentioned some of this during the discussion and about how I wish our society would stop trying to stick everyone into two narrow gender categories, one poster called my comments about gender categories “a bunch of liberal bullshit.”

    I would really love to become more informed about the trans community, so thank you for this article. I’ll be cheering for Isis too!

  17. NancyP wrote:

    Check out http://www.bilerico.com, a general-interest mostly serious political LGBT group blog that has a better-than-most record of recruiting bi, trans, POC columnists. Monica Roberts is one of the regulars.

    I have to say that I was a bit naive about models – now that I find out that some are transwomen, the statistically unlikely ideal skinny hips and larger breasts of top models now makes more sense. That might be liberating for some ciswomen – less felt “obligation” to fit the “fashion” physique.

    Well, good luck to Isis!

  18. Lisa Harney wrote:

    To add to DaKittehKorner’s answer, I’d say that “what type of transgender” that Isis may be is unimportant – she’s a woman, and that’s all that should really matter.

    It’s not all that does matter because people get hung up on it in the ways that DaKittehKorner says, of course, but sometimes I like to dream.

  19. DaKittehKorner wrote:

    PS I just finished a post on Isis on my blog about trans/queer popular media and legal stuff from an intersectional perspective. I’d love all of your input/helpful criticisms on it! thanks!

    http://dakittehkorner.blogspot.com/2008/09/blog-post_19.html

  20. ashley wrote:

    [Mod Note - See the update at the end of the post. I am not publishing any comments that would be offensive to transwomen. Your comments parallel the logic found in this conversation about West Africans and running. - LDP]

  21. Lisa Harney wrote:

    I have to say that I was a bit naive about models – now that I find out that some are transwomen, the statistically unlikely ideal skinny hips and larger breasts of top models now makes more sense. That might be liberating for some ciswomen – less felt “obligation” to fit the “fashion” physique.

    I think it’s more likely that trans women end up in modeling because some of them, too, fit into the ideal. That is, I don’t think the standard can be blamed on trans women. It’s still the people who hire the models.

    Plus, not all trans women have narrow hips, and I don’t know how many get breast implants, but since cis women do as well…

  22. Michelle wrote:

    [Mod Note: Michelle - I am confused about your comment. Please repost and clarify what you saw in the play, particularly regards to things that transwomen can do that ciswomen cannot. - LDP]

  23. magda wrote:

    DaKittehKorner, thank you for posting your summary of the show so I don’t have to watch it. I’ve never seen ANTM nor do I plan to but I do hope Isis wins, especially after putting up with all the invasive questions and transphobia.

    I had a feeling while reading this post that someone would bring up the possibility of a correlation between the beauty standards for models and the presence of trans women in the modeling industry. I can see how one would make that logical link, but without statistical information on the percentage of trans women in the fashion industry compared to the percentage of trans women in the general population it’s impossible to make any legitimate conclusions. Also, due to transphobia, many trans women have difficulty finding jobs in traditional fields much less acquiring the education needed for those types of jobs so it is not surprising that many would choose to become models.

  24. waxghost wrote:

    I said this on DaKittehKorner’s blog and I’ll say it here too: I don’t understand how they have had Ms. Jay (and to some extent, Mr. Jay) on the show the whole time it’s been running but just now act like they had no idea that there were transgender people in the world.

  25. Jesse Hewit wrote:

    I really appreciate the comment which problematizes the fact that cisgendered folks on the show apparently have full access to Isis’ body and all its goings-on. I think the politics of “dealing” with her body on the show have been horrendous, right out of the gate, but there is a standard of discourse about transfolks and trans bodies that I experience and practice that simply is not going to exist on television. This is because it is based in a community of people who embrace a certain strain of race/gender/transgender theory that is literally constructed on ideas that are complicated and laregly unexposed. For this reason, I’ve been really trying to imagine the ways in which folks who dont have access to this discourse (or who simply do not embrace it for one reason or another) might talk about the issues, and trying to not apply my very discursively priveleged standards to what from these women on TV. Even Tyra, I’d say, may not “get” that its fucked to ask someone about their genitals…especially growing up in an idustry where her body has most certainly been considered inspectable, categorical, commerce. I bet that if someone sat down with her, she’s have a new rampage to yell at someone about, should they dare claim the right to further make trans bodies the discursive property of cisgendered folks. I mean, in thinking about the the chasm of difference in the words we all use and how we go about getting our questions answered, I’m def. still not sold on the fact that my/our way is better. Alot of the ways that it has been deemed acceptable to talk about transbodies actually over-politicizes people who dont identify politically, it under-sexualizes people who may identify as highly sexualized, and worst of all, it locks the good knowledge into the universities and other corporately supported institutions that are systemically responsible for so much incongruence and structural phobia, racism, and classism in the first place. I know were all looking to be ginger and kind, but I think that risks should be taken. A great example to me is the growing distribution of hot trans porn that bulldozes through words like boy-pussy and man-slit, and lady-dick. I think that the sheer uttering of these words in an empowered and sexually charged situation (and also one that is produced by smart and critically minded transfolks and their allies) is an HONEST and transformative form of resistance, as opposed to obnoxious portrayals like Bri from Transamerica, or the meticulously cautious discussions of trans sexualities that I hear at conferences and in grad school classrooms. any thoughts?

  26. brianjkoscuiszka wrote:

    I guess that is why I am confused. Some say it doesn’t matter what “type” she is, that she identifies as female and that is what matters. But, apparently, isn’t she identifying as transgender? I’m not trying to disparage her in ANYWAY or tell her how she should identify herself; rather, I’m trying to understand better what these terms mean and how they are used and applied.

  27. Black Canseco wrote:

    Was indifferent to Isis’ prescence because it’s at least assumed/understood that ANTM is for female-born females, correct?

    So how does Isis’ presence fit that description?

    They had a show for male models but no one watched it.

    My question is in the need to be inclusive/ accepting are we going to end up being blind to obvious differences to the point of absurdity?

    far as i’m concerned different is not bad or good, but i’m not going to pretend i don’t notice different just be seen as being inclusive.

    Isis is as much female as a striped lion is a tiger. One’s not better or worse but is it so horrible to say the two are different?

    Mod Note – BC, I am confused by your comment here. No one is advocating for not pointing out a difference between competitors, and I am not sure if your comment is aimed toward the OP or how I am moderating the thread. If it’s the latter, you can talk about a difference without making bigoted assumptions, which is why I’m deleting a lot of comments on this post. And I would strongly caution against making assumptions like ANTM being for “women born women” – if Tyra didn’t say that in the casting, anything goes. And obviously, for Isis, it went. If Isis does not present as a man, why would she be in a male modeling competition? Those aren’t the contracts she is looking for. And I don’t see what being trans has to do with selling cosmetics. – LDP

  28. Black Canseco wrote:

    Another question:

    “Like Jackie Robinson fifty-one years ago, she’s got the hopes and aspirations of many African-American transgender people and the ballroom community walking with her.”

    Not to be facetious, but why does the struggle of African Americans have to be paralleled to those whose struggles are more gender/sex-centric? doesn’t in dilute the understanding and import of the respective groups being paralleled/ compared? It’s like saying one only has value in its relevancy to another’s.

  29. brianjkoscuiszka wrote:

    Perhaps I am completely uninformed on trans issues (I am attempting to educated myself), but doesn’t the idea of being “born into the wrong body” imply that the socialized gender norms we have are somehow right? Why does one’s inside feelings have to match one’s body? I read that there are certain members of the trans community who believe they are physically and biologically one sex but are mentally another. I guess I’m just asking why don’t we consider them to be the biological sex that they are, just with a completely different worldview and perspective on being that sex than is normally associated with those body parts?

    It just seems to be saying: “My body looks like a male (or female), but I don’t feel like I think a male (or female) is supposed to feel, so I guess my brain is the opposite gender of my body.” I would think that the TRULY progressive, open-minded approach to this situation would be to say, “Having a certain genitalia in no way determines how one should feel or think about one’s self and someone with male (or female) parts can feel anyway under the sun and still identify as the gender that they biologically are.”

    I’m not trying to take away or re-identify people who have chosen to identify themselves in a certain way. Rather, as I am trying to educate myself about this, it seemed an inherent contradiction to the prevailing idea that gender roles are social constructs. Wouldn’t this be like a black person who identifies with stereotypically “white” culture considering himself white? Rather than just recognizing that a black person can relate to any cultural elements they feel comfortable?

    Please, I don’t mean to offend and am trying to understand; I realize the situation I described only relates to a portion of trans people, but it seems as if this goes to further the idea that there is a “male way” to be and a “female way” to be.


    Mod Note
    – Brian, there is not total agreement that gender is a social construct and transpeople make decisions based on what they know to be true. But more to the point, you’ve gone way beyond the purpose of this thread. If you want to ask more about trans-identity and trans-issues, here is where you should go:

    Trans Respect/Etiquette/Support 101

    Holly for Feministe – What Trans Means to Me
    Questioning Transphobia – About Questioning Transphobia
    Emi Koyama – Intersex and Trans Basics
    TransGriot – Transition Issues (multiple posts)

    - LDP

  30. Lisa Harney wrote:

    Brian,

    I’m trying to understand better what these terms mean and how they are used and applied.

    “transgender” is an umbrella term that covers any number of identities and histories, and it’s difficult to say that it means any one particular thing. In Isis’ case, she’s a transsexual woman – she’s taking the hormones and is going to get the surgery – and if she views the process like I do, being a woman is more important to her than how she describes her trans history or identity.

    Black Canesco,

    Was indifferent to Isis’ prescence because it’s at least assumed/understood that ANTM is for female-born females, correct?

    Part of the problem with talking about “female-born females” or “women-born women” is that it reinforces the idea that trans women are somehow not valid women. It reinforces the idea that Isis is an entirely different category from “woman” even though she is a woman, and the perception that she’s anything else comes from other people imposing their own prejudices about what transsexual women are like onto real people.

    America’s Next Top Model features women. Isis is a woman. It’s not a matter of “inclusiveness” in terms of bringing someone in who doesn’t fit into that category, but acknowledging that trans women are women and already belong.

    Trying to emphasize Isis’ history as something that makes her different from cis women only serves to reinforce discrimination against trans women in general, and is holding elements of her life that are not under her control against her.

  31. Lisa Harney wrote:

    That said, I’m not saying there’s no difference between trans women and cis women – but that difference shouldn’t be used against trans women, or to judge trans women, or to deny that trans women are who we say we are.

  32. RoslynHolcomb wrote:

    I haven’t followed ANTM, though I did watch it tonight. As far as the invasiveness of the questions about transgendered people, unfortunately, modeling, and for that matter acting to a certain extent are VERY invasive industries. In modeling YOUR BODY is what it is all about. I know several models and a half dozen or more actresses and they tell horror stories about auditions/go-sees where they’ve been asked absolutely horrific questions. If you want to be in the industry that’s what goes on regardless of what your genitalia is.

    I thought it was interesting tonight that Isis was the only model in ‘boy shorts’ for the swimsuit shoot. No one said whether it was a genitalia issue or not, but she was clearly uncomfortable with shooting in a swimsuit. It goes without saying that for a model that can be extremely limiting.

    If you announce to people that you are transgendered, especially in the context of being a model, it shouldn’t be surprising or unexpected that people are going to ask you about your physical status. It goes with the territory.

  33. Lisa Harney wrote:

    Sorry about triple-posting, Latoya:

    BC,

    Not to be facetious, but why does the struggle of African Americans have to be paralleled to those whose struggles are more gender/sex-centric?

    Monica wrote that she has the “hopes of the African-American transgender people walking with her.” A lot of trans people are African-American, including Monica. She’s not paralleling anything, she’s talking about a group that Isis is a member of: African-American transgender people, as well as the ballroom community.

  34. Michelle wrote:

    Hey LaToya/Mod,

    What I meant was, there is an incredible athleticism to the women who walk at the balls versus the women who walk the traditional catwalk. I don’t think that ciswomen could actually begin to “compete” with the way the transwomen walk/dance/battle because it is a style that is generated specifically for that bodytype. And I recognize that the European catwalk will probably never resemble a ball, but a girl can dream. And looking at that giraffe walk that the girls are doing now, I think that perhaps a bit of inspiration would be helpful for the catwalk. I mean, Ms. Jay is teaching them how to be models. It has to come from that hyper real world of the balls.

    What I was struck by as I was watching the play is that hyper realistic world of being a woman. I was actually inspired to look at my own femininity and presentation. Because the world of the balls pushes the envelope (in some cases) of what it is to present “woman”, well, they just kind of do it better. Within the world of the balls the presentation of woman is simply done better.

    And when I look at the catwalk, it seems like the models are not representations of what ciswomen have to offer, versus what cismen have to offer. The models are all about 5-7 inches taller than the average woman, however only 2-3 inches taller than the average man. On a physical level, the ciswoman model has to actually mimic (to the best of her ability) a thin, prepubescent boy. It seems to me that a transwoman is physically more in line with that ideal than a ciswoman, however tall and thin she may be.

  35. Monica Roberts wrote:

    BC,
    As an African-American transwoman and historian, I can, I will and eagerly claim Black history because it is MY history as well. And as a Black person, the Civil Rights Movement of the 50’s and 60’s is ours as well.

    Finding parallels doesn’t dilute the accomplishments of our Black history because we are supposed to do just that, learn from it and use it as inspiration for the next round of advances.

    If it weren’t for peeps like Lorraine Hansberry, some of those marches and campaigns wouldn’t have gotten funded.

    The late Coretta Scott King pointed out that Black GLBT people participated in many Southern civil rights campaigns.

    And need I remind you that a Black gay man organized the 1963 March on Washington

    FYI for you. The first transgender civil rights protest was not Stonewall in 1969, not San Francisco’s Compton’s Cafeteria riot in 1967, but a FUBU GLBT production at Philadelphia’s Dewey’s Lunch counter in 1965 that used the non-violent tactics honed in the movement.

    Yes, Isis’ participation on ANTM is a Jackie Robinson moment. Like Jackie’s participation in major league baseball, it is opening closed minds to the fact that Black transpeople exist, we are beautiful, we have have dreams and aspirations and given a fair shot can excel, survive and thrive.

  36. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Michelle –

    Thank you for your clarification, I appreciate it. I emailed Monica about your comment, as I am not fluent in transissues, but it seemed to employ similar logic as I have seen with other stereotypes. I understand what you mean, and some of the participants in ball culture can be extremely impressive in their performance. But at the same time, not all transwomen are into that, nor do many of them want to be in fashion. So, I sent it off to Monica for a response you can actually use, and here is what she said:

    Michelle,
    When you say that there is an incredible athleticism’ in the ballroom competitors vs. runway models, it skirts dangerously close to the ‘all Black people are athletes’ stereotype.

    I also seem to recall from the ‘Vogue’ video that Madonna did a passable job in mimicking Old way voguing. Since the ‘Paris Is Burning’ days of the ballroom community has categories in which genetic women actually walk runway, have pretty face and vogue against each other.

    I also remember the scene from ‘Paris Is Burning’ in which the late Willi Ninja was teaching genetic women (and models) how to walk with more feminine grace. I surprisingly got asked one day by a genetic woman who knew I was transgender to teach her how to walk in heels and do her makeup.

    I’ve also heard the lament from genetic women when they watch balls or transgender beauty pageants the ‘damn they look better than me’

    It’s done better because transwomen, who make up the femme queen categories in the ballroom community aren’t just competing, they are actually honing their feminine presentations in the spirit of a competition so that they can live their lives. And just like practice in a sporting event translates into perfection in the sporting arena, so does walking balls for a transwoman. We also have to do it better because our lives may depend on it.

    Most genetic female models range in heights from 5′7′ to 6 2″, so in the ball world the houses are going to put transwomen in those categories that are not only in that height range, but come as close to matching the fashion world beauty standards as possible.

    In the real world transwomen aren’t necessarily all thin model types. Just like in the real world, transwomen come in all shapes, sizes and body types.

    You also have to remember the earlier you start hormones as a male to female transperson, the more feminine you look physically. Combine the ruthless attention to detail to presentation with a feminine body platform and you get a phenomenal looking woman on the outside.

  37. Lisa Harney wrote:

    Brian,

    I guess I’m just asking why don’t we consider them to be the biological sex that they are, just with a completely different worldview and perspective on being that sex than is normally associated with those body parts?

    This post doesn’t answer your question directly, but I think it covers why your question is problematic in the first place. It primarily addresses feminists, but it addresses feminists who use arguments like yours above.

  38. Joseph wrote:

    @Lisa Harney & Monica Roberts
    You are rocking my world with these informative posts. Thank you.

  39. Lisa Harney wrote:

    Roslyn,

    If you announce to people that you are transgendered, especially in the context of being a model, it shouldn’t be surprising or unexpected that people are going to ask you about your physical status. It goes with the territory.

    But it is invasive. It sends the message that trans people have no boundaries, especially not boundaries that cis people can expect. Yes, cis people ask those questions: “Have you had surgery?” “Why do you feel this way?” and so on, but these questions are not any cis person’s business.

    How would you feel if people – perfect strangers, friends, teachers, colleagues, everyone – felt entitled to walk up to you and ask you about your genitals? Maybe make some conversation about vaginal depth? Maybe discuss lubrication?

    Would you feel harassed? Violated? Would you feel like your privacy was being stripped away?

    And if you asserted “No way, this is none of your business,” people accused you of being mean, of having the wrong tone, because you wouldn’t answer their invasive questions, what would that be like? Told you that since you’re a woman, that you should expect to answer questions like this?

    It’s a problem that it’s just assumed that trans people should be okay with this kind of questioning, and I think that Isis has infinite patience for answering those questions on camera. I just wish that no one – most especially Tyra, who set the tone by asking her own invasive questions – thought it was okay to ask these questions in the first place.

  40. RoslynHolcomb wrote:

    Note Lisa, I said IN THE CONTEXT OF MODELING. Even gave an example wherein it may or may not have been an issue, ie the swimsuits. Isis was the only model in boyshorts. Was it a genitalia issue? I have no idea, but I do know that modeling is incredibly invasive. It simply is. I know models who have been asked to do everything from bleach their pubes to their doing the same to their rectum (No, I don’t know why). Would I tolerate such? Hell no, but then I’m not a model. But when you choose such a field, it should be expected that you have to deal with that type of thing. All models do.

  41. GallingGalla wrote:

    BC:

    “Isis is as much female as a striped lion is a tiger” is just another way of saying “Isis is a man in a dress”. Very offensive and transphobic.

  42. Michelle wrote:

    Monica,

    Thank you so much! I so appreciated your comments. I am learning so much from this dialogue. Many thanks.

    I just want to be clear I am not talking about women (trans or cis) in general terms. I am strictly speaking about the fashion world, and I am also drawing parallels with the ballroom culture. I do not think to myself “transwomen” just look better (many, many do, some, not so much, like with everyone. It is like saying “all Biracial women are fine, I get that). But I am very interested in, like I said, the presentation of woman. I don’t think that ciswomen have invested time in the presentation of woman, more specifically that presentation as a performance. When you say “It’s done better because transwomen, who make up the femme queen categories in the ballroom community aren’t just competing, they are actually honing their feminine presentations in the spirit of a competition so that they can live their lives. And just like practice in a sporting event translates into perfection in the sporting arena, so does walking balls for a transwoman. We also have to do it better because our lives may depend on it”, I thank you. You put into words what I was trying to really wrap my brain around. It is that presentation, the honing of that presentation, and presentation as performance, that I am interested in. Again, to be clear, specifically as it relates to performance and/or fashion. You said something else that was powerful. You commented on the “ruthless attention to detail”, as you put it. Now this is off topic, but when you said that it really encapsulated so many things that I have been thinking about when it comes to the presentation of woman and anyone who falls outside what “woman” is defined to be in our culture. It does create a “ruthless attention to detail” that gets more refined the more one has to fight for basic inclusion.

    Lastly, you point out that;

    “Most genetic female models range in heights from 5′7′ to 6 2″, so in the ball world the houses are going to put transwomen in those categories that are not only in that height range, but come as close to matching the fashion world beauty standards as possible.
    In the real world transwomen aren’t necessarily all thin model types. Just like in the real world, transwomen come in all shapes, sizes and body types.”

    I think, I might be wrong, but I think we are saying the same thing. For instance, short girls make better gymnasts. Period. They just do. Tall girls make better basketball players. Period. They just do. People who are born men, genetically, have a better shot at being 5′10″ than people who are born women. I guess I was just pointing out that the fashion industry uses as it’s standard of beauty an ideal that has less breast mass, less hip girth, and more height than the average person who is born female. But I am sorry if saying that is offense. I was just pointing out that it seems as though a ciswoman might have certain traits that are very helpful in a world that values a taller, less curvy ideal.

    And can I ask a question? When it comes to issues of gender, there are differences between men and women, right? I am not being sarcastic, please, bear with me. I guess I am curious about where to draw the line between assuming genetic differences between races and genetic differences between different sexes. I know, there is a line and I DO NOT want to cross it, but I am not clear that the line is in exactly the same place as it in when it relates to race. But, you guys are not here to school me, so if this does not further this awesome discussion, I offer my apologies.

  43. brianjkoscuiszka wrote:

    I appreciate all those who have attempted to help me learn more about this topic. I apologize for potentially having derailed the conversation and never intended to do so. In no way was I trying to take away from Isis and her accomplishments. I applaud her for what she is doing and wish her the best, both on the show and where ever else life takes her. I assumed that the posting boards were open to moving in the direction the conversation took it, but I understand the reason for trying to keep a focus. I cannot say that all of my questions have been answered, but I now have a bevy of resources available and appreciate those who made an effort. Keep up the great work, everyone.

  44. JayOVAH wrote:

    Though i like Isis on the show and adds something “different” to the competition, she is not going to win. Not just, as someone pointed out earlier, because the winner will be representing on SEVENTEEN magazine, but because she’s not really all that fly in knocking out the different challenges. She was in the bottom 2 at least once and her pictures don’t always turn out the best.

    Another thing, i would hope that Isis knew exactly what she was getting herself into when she decided to try out for ANTM. Most of those girls on the show(as are most models) are young and naive and curious. It just goes without saying that they’re going to have questions and prejudices and curiosities. That shouldn’t be surprising. Moreso than Isis, i find myself “hating” the “ghetto” Asian chick. Let’s talk about her.

  45. Shelby wrote:

    I’m with Joseph #38. This conversation has me, literally, giddy with all the new (for me) privilege-bashing arguments and ideas. Thank you!

    Isis is, indeed, chipping away (or blasting through) people’s ignorance.
    Evidence: While chatting at the dinner table, my fairly conservative, gender-norms-abiding father agreed that there were more than two sexes/genders. Hoooooly shit son! My heart almost exploded! I know that my dad is only one guy and he didn’t say anything ground-breaking for the people who live that truth every day…but, damn. People CAN change and grow and learn to accept others. And women, brave women, like Isis are stimulating that growth and acceptance. It’s awesome.

  46. NancyP wrote:

    Wait a minute – ballroom? If “Paris is burning” documentary shows a version of ballroom, yes, I’d say those contestants are more physically active than the models in the old-style fashion industry shows for store buyers.

    I don’t “blame” anyone other than the fashion designers and retailers for the “ideal” of tall, no hips, medium to big bust.

    I am amazed that people feel that it’s ok to ask strangers, or even friends, about their genitalia. Eww. TMI, unless sexual negotiation is underway. Anyway, what’s above the neck is more interesting to me. And asking a stranger “when did you figure it out” is equally a non-starter (unless the trans stranger has offered to explain, eg, in a trans 101 community forum). That’s something you might ask a good friend.

  47. Lisa Harney wrote:

    Roslyn,

    Apologies for misunderstanding your point.

    I do think that Isis was subjected to an exceptional amount of questioning in ANTM as compared to the other contestants, but I do see what you’re saying.

  48. Black Canseco wrote:

    my point was only this, and maybe i’m wrong since i’m only going by the trans folks i hang with: far as they’re concerned transgendered people are just that: transgendered people. not a guy pretending to be a woman; not a woman pretending to be a guy, but a transgendered person. it’s unique.

    i don’t know too many people who see women as simply “people with breasts/vagina” or men as “people with penises”. Yet when commentors make statements such as “America’s Next Top Model features women. Isis is a woman. It’s not a matter of “inclusiveness” in terms of bringing someone in who doesn’t fit into that category, but acknowledging that trans women are women and already belong,” then i think th

    it’s not a value judgment to say that a woman is a woman, man is a man and transgendered people are transgender persons.

    as for the the requirements of ANTM, is it out of line to say that when you heard the title or watched the first couple seasons and watched how the show has been promoted by all involved, that viewers making the very reasonable assumption that ANTM was a reality-sho/contest pitting female-born women against female-born women for a title?

    If the show had an all male cast or were something called “America’s Sexiest Male Model”, would it be crazy to assume that all the male contestants are male-born males?

    is that being biased or just assuming what’s obvious to most?

    And at what point in anything i wrote did i claim or insinuate that Transpeople don’t exist or that they’re not beautiful? i never made/implied or considered any such thought.

    As for African American trans- GLBT involvement in the civil rights movement, i never claimed they weren’t involved and didn’t play signficiant roles. But how does a calculated casting decision made within the fashion industry which couldn’t be any more GLBT-friendly rise to the level of a jackie Robinson moment? The GLBT and trans communities dominate the fashion world as it is–at least in areas of fashion design and runway modeling—which ANTM focuses.

    my guess is no matter what i write, i’ll be dismissed as bigoted, ignorant or hateful or biased for simply suggesting that pointing out differences isn’t such a horrible thing to do.

    and so be it.

  49. Black Canseco wrote:

    “Isis is as much female as a striped lion is a tiger” is just another way of saying “Isis is a man in a dress”.

    Very offensive and transphobic.

    if you see it that way then so be it. Lions are lions, tigers are tigers… while both are part of the feline community, no one intellectualizes that they are so similar as to be interchangeable or too simply give them the same name.

    But again, stating cleared agreed upon differences is being seen on this thread as being biased. there’s nothing i can do about that so, you guys win.

    you’re right and i’m a bigot. so there. i’m out.

  50. Lisa Harney wrote:

    my point was only this, and maybe i’m wrong since i’m only going by the trans folks i hang with: far as they’re concerned transgendered people are just that: transgendered people. not a guy pretending to be a woman; not a woman pretending to be a guy, but a transgendered person. it’s unique.

    No, it’s not unique. Some people identify primarily as transgender, or genderqueer, or bigender, or mtf spectrum or ftm spectrum, see their femininity or masculinity defined as trans, and so on.

    But I – and a significant number of other trans people – identify ourselves strictly as men or women, not some third category that Western society doesn’t make room for or accommodate.

    And also, it’s not reasonable to use any trans friends you may have to substitute for all trans people, to take their opinions as representative of all trans people.

    it’s not a value judgment to say that a woman is a woman, man is a man and transgendered people are transgender persons.

    I disagree. You’re saying there’s a true essence to manhood or womanhood that trans people can’t be a part of. You’re saying that trans people aren’t men or women, and are instead some third unique category. You’re saying that some trans people’s self-definition as neither men or women somehow trumps other trans people’s perceptions of ourselves as men or women.

    as for the the requirements of ANTM, is it out of line to say that when you heard the title or watched the first couple seasons and watched how the show has been promoted by all involved, that viewers making the very reasonable assumption that ANTM was a reality-sho/contest pitting female-born women against female-born women for a title?

    “Female-born women” again asserts that trans women are not legitimately women. And the idea that a show that’s about women should only include those who were born female is a privileged cissexist assumption that excludes trans women from being seen as normal, that insists that we must continue to be seen as “other” to cis people. Isis – as a woman – isn’t an intruder into a space set aside for women, but is another woman participating in that space. That this space may have excluded trans women in the pass is relevant, but not in terms of justifying continued exclusion.

    is that being biased or just assuming what’s obvious to most?

    Yes, it’s a biased thing to say. You’re making an argument that supports discrimination against trans women. You’ve argued in this thread that ANTM was always a segregated show and should remain segregated. How is that not a biased argument against trans women?

    my guess is no matter what i write, i’ll be dismissed as bigoted, ignorant or hateful or biased for simply suggesting that pointing out differences isn’t such a horrible thing to do.

    No one – not even GallingGalla – said you were being bigoted or hateful. GallingGalla said that what you were saying was transphobic – and it is transphobic. You said that the difference between trans women and cis women should keep trans women out of opportunities afforded to cis women – specifically, out of America’s Next Top Model.

    You don’t have the right to not have your words seen as offensive by the people you’re talking about.

    There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that there’s a difference between cis women and trans women. It’s when that difference is used to justify exclusion and discrimination that it becomes bias. Or when it’s used to insist that some women aren’t really women.

    And seriously, if I thought you were a hateful bigot, I wouldn’t be trying to respond to your points. I do think you’re ignorant about trans people but there’s nothing wrong with being ignorant. No one’s born knowing everything they need to know, and we’re all raised in a society that incorrectly teaches all of us that being cis (not being trans) is more valuable and important than being trans.

    The question is whether you would rather hold those views when trans people are talking to you. That what you say about trans people is more valid, valuable, and important than what trans people say about trans people.

  51. Michelle wrote:

    It seems to me that this thread is really pointing out my (and other’s) gender-privilege. Is that the correct term? Like White Privilege?

    I have to admit, I get where BC is coming from. I also know that I do have gender-privilege so what “know” to be “true” comes from a paradigm that, for the most part. works for me and people like me.

    I do think that the experience of being transgender seems like it is a huge part of a persons identity. I see now that I have a lot to learn about why a transgendered woman would call herself a woman, and a woman period. I guess it is similar to why a Bi-racial person would chose to call themselves Black, and only Black.

    I look forward to more discussions. Thanks for all the website info. I have a LOT to learn.

  52. Lisa Harney wrote:

    Michelle,

    I usually use “cissexual privilege”, but yeah – it’s a kind of gender privilege (but not the same as male privilege).

    I get where BC is coming from too – I’ve had it directed at me many times. Because I get it, I disagree with it. I wish he hadn’t felt defensive about the responses to his comments, though.

    Being trans isn’t a huge part of my identity – it’s a fact of my life that I can’t change, but I’ve had to adapt to it. Being a woman is more important to me than being trans, but being trans is more important to society than being a woman.

    I call myself a woman for the same reason a cis (non-trans) woman does. I realize that may not seem to make sense because people assume that trans people were really born one sex and switched to the other, but being trans tends to be something that people grow up with – it wasn’t a sudden thing, but a constant part of my life. My sense of myself as female has been with me all my life, even though my physical reality has had to change to match that. That’s, btw, an extremely simplistic explanation and doesn’t mean “woman trapped in a man’s body.”