Film Festival Pick: Irish Twins
by Latoya Peterson
Last night, I watched the best of the DC Shorts film festival, which featured a week of short films from around the globe.
The last film of the evening was called Irish Twins, written and directed by Ryder and Shiloh Strong.
The film’s synopsis reads:
Born within a year of each other, Michael and Seamus Sullivan have become very different men. On the eve of their father’s funeral, Seamus drags Michael to the local pub in their small, logging community of northern California.
He attempts to convince his brother that they must take their father’s ashes to Ireland in tribute.
Of course, it isn’t long before Seamus’ true intentions are revealed, when his involvement with a group of local drug dealers becomes impossible to avoid, and Michael must confront how much he is willing to sacrifice for his Irish twin.
But what compelled me most about the film (outside of great pacing and drama) was the discussion of Irish identity. (Warning: Mild dialogue spoilers ahead, explicit language.)
In the movie, Ryder Strong plays Michael Sullivan – the responsible, slightly anal retentive older brother. Michael Sullivan is a polished professional and spends the first half of the movie annoyed by the ramblings of his brother Samus (Shiloh Strong). As his brother fondly knocks back shots with his father’s ashes in an urn on the bar, Michael becomes more and more agitated with how his brother chooses to reminisce.
He is embarrassed at how Samus keeps calling them “Irish twins” eventually screaming out, “That is a derogatory term! Don’t you get that? Poor immigrants fucking and creating kids they can’t feed because they were too stupid to wear a fucking condom!”
His brother keeps asking him to go to Ireland and Michael seems to reject the notion of a mythical homeland. In many ways, the character of Michael appears to be assimilated – he creates distance between himself and his family and is ashamed by the actions they take, as they uphold negative stereotypes. Michael refers to the Irish as “the drinking diaspora,” and often shuts down Seamus’ fond memories by reminding him of other parts of their childhood.
There is a point in the movie where Seamus is telling a story about his father at the bar, passing around Seamus’ solider photo and mentioning that his boy is out there “killing sand niggers.” Michael recoils at that statement and protests, but Seamus continues on with his story.
I found that an interesting insertion into the script. As I discussed with a friend post-viewing, it was interesting to see a movie that had a plot revolve around the stereotyping aimed at Irish, and insert a racist slur toward another group so casually. Michael’s reaction also reinforces the differences between how the two brothers perceive their identity: while Seamus sees himself just repeating a story his father told, Michael sees examples of fulfilling the worst of Irish stereotypes.
In an interview with Paper Magazine, the brothers talk a little about their ideas going into the film:
Rebecca Carroll: So you’re not Irish twins in age, but are you Irish anyway?
Shiloh Strong: Technically, I guess.
Ryder Strong: We think so. Irish, Scottish. But all family myths that the characters talk about [in the film] are actually our family myths. Our great grandfather claimed to be the bastard child of John L. Sullivan, the boxer. We think a lot of its crap, but our dad’s side of the family is supposedly Irish.
SS: But that’s a huge thing in the short, too, that whole idea of Irish pride — [the characters] hold so strongly onto this sense of identity from somewhere else.
[...]
RC: So would you say that Irish Twins has a message or is it just meant to be entertaining?
RS: No, we meant to play with themes. The fundamental theme, which we kind of just talked about yesterday for the first time, is you can’t escape your family for better or worse, and in this case for worse. For the character of Michael — against his better judgment, against his morality and despite his accomplishments in life — his connection to his brother brings him to this awful place at the end of the movie.
Overall, I felt the film was a very interesting reminder that just because a group appears to have assimilated into “whiteness,” that isn’t always the end of the story.
Any thoughts? (Or, did anyone else see the movie?)
Irish Twins Trailer
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Celeste wrote:
It looks like a good movie
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 10:59 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:
I love Irish culture. I’ve always rolled my eyes when white Americans claim that white people have no culture.
here, a lot of white Americans have Irish roots mixed with other nations. I do believe that there IS a “white” culture here in the United States: the Irish. Irish culture hasn’t died out in many parts of the United States (well from what I’ve seen anyway).
look at St. Paddy’s Day. whilst everyone (white, black, brown) celebrate it to get drunk, it’s also about a celebration of Irish heritage and culture. if thats not a white holiday, then I don’t know what is.
a lot of my white friends who have never been to Ireland, whose ancestors came to this country 100, 130, 200 years ago, whatever, proudly wave Irish flags and talk about how they want to go to Ireland someday. plus, Irish-style pubs are always popular everywhere in the country. that’s “white culture” for you, I guess.
well, thats my observation and if anyone disagree with me I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:04 am ¶
Jack D. wrote:
An excellent catch. It would have been easy to dismiss this story based on a kneejerk reaction to the color of their skin and assumptions of white heritage. Kudos for being able to see more and sharing it with us here.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:09 am ¶
atlasien wrote:
Irish-American identity is a fascinating topic.
I know two extremes from my own life. There’s one friend of my husband’s who is on the saner side. He’s second-generation, has pretty close ties to Ireland and has been there several times. He doesn’t pretend that Irish nationals owe him a warm homecoming. He doesn’t use his Irish heritage as an excuse to get drunk and act like an asshole. His relation to Ireland is a lot like mine with Japan, actually.
Then another friend of my husband’s was totally off the deep end, although he’s calmed down a bit in the last few years. Never been to Ireland. Has a prominent IRA tattoo. Ex-Nazi-skinhead, renounced racist violence against people of color at a young age, but replaced it with the only slightly better activity of getting drunk and picking bar fights with English people.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:14 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Celeste – It is an *excellent* film. I focused on the racial aspects, but the movie on its own is an excellent comedy/drama. The ending is phenomenal.
@DFP – I think a lot of white culture would have been wrapped into national pride, if there wasn’t the dichotomy of black/white here. But since all kinds of whites ended up assimilated into one mass (in the way blacks were stripped of their heritage, and assimilated into one mass) that aspect of self is lost. The argument could be made that blacks and whites in the US are missing a piece of themselves, part of which can be found thorough researching your specific ancestry.
@Jack D. –
Whiteness is a racial designation, and a social construct. We don’t focus on it here in this space, but I do find these stories very compelling. Particularly when the Strong brothers took such great pains to add depth and complexity to their characters.
@Atlasien –
Interesting stories. I think for a lot of people, there is just this sense of wanting to belong. Seamus’ character in the movie was like that – he kept elevating Ireland to this mythical place because he felt like maybe, there, he could belong. Maybe there, his life would be different. Even though his brother eventually uncovers the *real* reason he wanted to go to Ireland, there’s still that sense of longing.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:32 am ¶
drispe wrote:
Don’t whites have a culture of supremacy too?
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:39 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:
as a side-note, that’s Ryder Strong?!?! from Boy Meets World?!?! I loooooved that show. Damn, I miss the 90s.
but daaaamn, he’s become quite good-lookin’
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:53 am ¶
Antonio wrote:
This film does sound interesting. I think many groups (blacks, Asians, gays, lesbians, people from the south that move elsewhere, etc.) struggle with assimilation and avoiding stereotypes while maintaining a sense of self.
Is it weird that I instantly recognized the name Ryder Strong as Cory’s best friend from Boy Meets World, a show I rarely watched?
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶
Tim wrote:
There’s clearly a good deal of self-differentiation in white America based on ethnicity, language, and religion, in addition to geography, politics, and class. The Sopranos, for all of its other charms, has also been notable for its exploration of Italian-American identity.
Irish, Italians, Slavs, and Jews are on the whole a terrific American success story, entering into the middle-class in huge numbers even as they maintain much of their ethnic identity and a fairly substantital presence on urban neighborhoods.
In fact, you could argue that Irish-Americans have reached a sufficient point of assimilation that self-indicting humor can be mainstream. (Even though I am very close to an “Irish twin,” I have never heard an Irishman or Irish-American describe it as a derogatory term.) Irish-Americans can engage in self-parody, open up their culture to virtually anyone, and generally play as both white and other without much consequence.
The Irish are distinct from most other Europeans (especially other European-Americans) in that they share a post-colonial legacy with many non-Europeans, which leads to some shared grievances and possibly some sense of mutual understanding.
My wife, who is African-American, will often identify me to people to haven’t met me as “Irish.” This seems to be partly a way to suggest that I am white while at the same time differentiating me within that group. It also identifies our shared heritage, since she is 1/8 Irish herself.
One thing I can say is that my father, whose parents emigrated from Ireland, particularly keyed in to the fact that Barack Obama’s father was (for a short time, anyways) an immigrant. Born in Detroit in 1952, his parents couldn’t have imagined then that a Catholic, let alone an Irish Catholic, could have been elected President within the next decade. Now his daughter-in-law and grandchildren may get to see a multiracial African-American family in the White House.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 12:35 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Antonio – Good points. And I spent the whole movie like “Who the hell is that guy? I know him from somewhere!” The lights went up, and people were buzzing in the theater. “Why, Shawn, Why?!!?”
@DFP – He grew up well, didn’t he? He had this weird duck hair thing going on for part of the movie though..like some gel at the bottom decided to flip a section of his hair.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 12:50 pm ¶
Bill wrote:
My ancestors are more Irish than anything else, but I’m a white guy from San Diego. I went through a discover my Irishness phase and still am happy to have read Joyce and still listen to the Pogues. Everybody in the United States (or anywhere else for that matter) has a story of how they got here and how they have been displaced (and at some level everyone on this continent has been displaced if not physically then historically and culturally), but it’s a danger for white people to take their focus off of their historical present. The Irishness that most Irish-Americans live is so abstract that it nearly doesn’t exist. This is not true for everyone of course. The thing is, if white people look at things clearly, they have a great opportunity to break with the past, by learning to listen and allowing themselves to not need to be at the center of everything. Irish people moved to North America and exchanged oppression for a privilege which many of them mistook for freedom. That is what our historical inheritance is, and that is what we are given the opportunity to move past.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:08 pm ¶
Clarke wrote:
“The argument could be made that blacks and whites in the US are missing a piece of themselves, part of which can be found thorough researching your specific ancestry.”
This is right-on. You made me think of what role ancestry plays in my own family, which came back to class issues. My father’s side is historically well-to-do WASPs, and has the privilege of knowing exactly where my relatives are from in England, when they came over to the US in the 1600s, etc. My mother’s side is traditionally poor white southern (I’m two generations removed from sharecropping), and my grandmother was illegitimate with no clue as to who her father was. Because my mother’s side has the last name of Kelly, my family, especially my granddad, hung on to the idea of Irish pride (even though there is no “proof” of Irish ancestry). Even the corniest shamrock stuff made his chest swell. I remember being forced to watch riverdance as a kid, then turning around and realizing my grandpa was bawling his eyes out for his “heritage”.
My mom was always envious that my dad has such a literal wealth of knowledge about his family’s roots, while she was reduced to speculation and dragging her kids to see riverdance on broadway. I’m sure some version of these types of tensions must play out in other families across different backgrounds.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:10 pm ¶
heyhey wrote:
I still recall a monologue in the middle of “The Commitments” (talk about blue-eyed soul), where the titular band member basically described the Dubliners as “The Blacks of Europe” (no offense to the actual African-Europeans), and as such had a connection to the Wilson Picket, Aretha, Sam Cooke covers they performed.
That was a strange notion for me back in the early 90s, and to this day I forget that’s the mentality of many Irish– literally the “red-headed stepchild” of the Empire, etc.
Maybe this is better suited for the “Appropriation vs. Appreciation” thread?
Mod Note – Works for both. – LDP
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:15 pm ¶
sarah wrote:
Latoya, about this:
“- he kept elevating Ireland to this mythical place because he felt like maybe, there, he could belong.”
This is what I feel from other people who don’t have a connection to Irish ethnicity-but want to feel attached to some place or identity beyond “white people with no culture”.
I’m Irish Australian, very pale, and “hey you’re Irish aren’t you?” is something people always say to me as a sizing up for bonding.
Whether the bonding aim’s racism or self affirming mythologizing; they’re dissapointed that I don’t actually drink Guinness or prefer Ireland to Australia.
People talk about a clear ethnic lineage as though it’s an always a valid form claiming community or identity…compared to the other forms of community they actual create in their lives.
I know people who’ll say that their gay or church isn’t a real community whenever they have some frustrations in it. But they’ll insist they’re Irish, and that it’s important, when they really don’t know and think it’s all about drinking stereotypes.
I wonder if it’s the myth of family and “blood” being stronger than anything else behind that?
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:36 pm ¶
sarah wrote:
hit post too soon..
…a valid form [of] claiming community or identity..
…that their gay or church [community] isn’t a real community…
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:40 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
I think the bad attitude of some Irish-Americans comes from a lack of understanding of how privileged they are to switch between their racial and ethnic identities.
When they recognize that yes, they are white AND of Irish heritage, and that one has a complex legacy of privilege while the other has a complex legacy of oppression… that’s a much healthier perspective. People who have that kind of foundation of understanding don’t run around making absurd claims.
People in the middle of the racial hierarchy, like Asian-Americans, don’t have as much choice. My racial identity (Asian) encompasses and practically overpowers my ethnic identity (Japanese-American), no matter whether I agree or not.
Black people in the U.S. have had the least power of all to define their ethnic identity. Their racial identity and their ethnic identity are today viewed as practically the same, because of the legacy of slavery, which actively tried to destroy their ethnicity.
I wish I could remember the name of the book I read where the author put out the theory I just described above… but Irish-American identity was one of the cornerstones of his argument. In short, Irish-Americans had the freedom to decide whether they wanted to be white and not Irish, Irish and not white, or both at the same time. And this was a freedom people of color just don’t have yet. Black people with Irish ancestry are not viewed as Irish-Americans. For people of color to claim the same right, they really have to swim against the current of racialization.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶
PureGracefulTree wrote:
@ atlasien: is the book you refer to How the Irish Became White by Noel Ignatiev? I haven’t read it myself yet, but it’s on my list. I think an understanding of how the notion of “white” developed and what people had to do to join that privileged group is vital to seeing how racism plays out in the U.S.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:58 pm ¶
Winn wrote:
Can I just say that I love Ryder Strong. I feel less guilty about the crush I’ve had on him since “Boy Meets World” since he is a grown man now, LOL! But the issue of Irish identity and heritage within the context of whiteness is a fascinating one, and one I’ve seen played out, even briefly, in other films about both the Irish and Irish American experience, like the aforementioned “The Commitments”, “In America”, “Gangs of New York”, and films about the Irish Traveller experience (interestingly, in Britain, Travellers are a recognized ethinic minority and protected class, while they are not in Ireland. Many hate crimes and discrimination allegations target the Traveller communities rather than Ireland’s growing communities of color). This may be rather academic, but I’m a film criticism buff, and here’s a link to article that examines how film has addressed Irish “white” identity, black identity, and the confluence of the two:
http://screen.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/48/1/131
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 2:18 pm ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:
@ Tim:
My wife, who is African-American, will often identify me to people to haven’t met me as “Irish.” This seems to be partly a way to suggest that I am white while at the same time differentiating me within that group. It also identifies our shared heritage, since she is 1/8 Irish herself.
Heh. I do that all the time. I introduce my white Irish friends to my non-white friends and I’d chime in, “they’re Irish, by the way.”
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 2:29 pm ¶
Lauren O wrote:
I am of Irish descent (that O in my username stands for an O’Surname), and I have to say that while the Irish did experience loads of oppression both in Ireland and elsewhere, white Irish-Americans lack no privilege today. There’s a reason Bill O’Reilly and John McCain don’t have their patriotism questioned, but Barack Obama does (maybe he should go by O’Bama?).
For most of us, being Irish is a point of pride, but we don’t know hardly anything about Irish culture and are content to reduce it to drinking a bunch of Guinness. In fact, I think it is an indicator of immense privilege that the main stereotype of Irish people is a negative one (drunkenness), but that society embraces it so much that we make it a national holiday on St. Patrick’s Day. Somehow a holiday for other negative racial stereotypes doesn’t seem like it will be happening soon (”Happy Lazy Mexican Day!” “I get to be the Welfare Queen in the school pageant!”).
Anyway, I guess what I wanted to say is that I am all for exploring Irish culture and remembering our past oppression, but there is no real reason to differentiate Irish-Americans from other whites at this point in time. In my experience, at least, white privilege has always been 100% for us.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
Damn this blog is on fiyah this week! I usually don’t click on spoilers…but I’ll still see this movie.
atl/pure: that book is on my list too
clarke: Assuming you’ve seen the Wire, there are a couple of episodes where the cops and attorneys sing an Irish song during wakes.
Tim: good points.
Bill: Irish people moved to North America and exchanged oppression for a privilege which many of them mistook for freedom.
& hey hey Maybe this is better suited for the “Appropriation vs. Appreciation” thread?
I can think of the NY draft riots, how the surnames Malone and Doyle got into my family, yet I will listen to the Cranberries and complain if someone serves Rioja during St. Pats.
Antonio: I wonder what Topanga’s up to? Not that I watched the show or anything…
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶
Kepler wrote:
Is the perception of a ‘bland white culture’ that prevalent? So how do Italians, Greeks, Germans, Czech, Russian, Polish, etc cultures factor in?
I’m inclined to agree with atlasien on how whites are allowed to be both American and Ethnic, but other minorities are identified as other first.
And for what it’s worth, when I was introduced to the term ‘Irish twin’ (by a man with two ‘Irish twins’ siblings), I was immediately informed it was considered a slur. He didn’t take offense to it, but I sensed it was a term claimed and reserved for the Irish.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 4:04 pm ¶
Brandon wrote:
I think that America had an opportunity to create a white culture, but instead worked to create a culture of exclusion. White American has been too busy creating a sense of OTHER. Rather than focus on positive aspects of its own culture, it denegrated other cultures. White culture and identity was more white supremacy. Rather than focus on the positives of white culture, it focused on the negatives of all other cultures.
A great book that relates to this topic is How the Irish Became White, by Noel Ignatiev. I have linked it…
http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Noel-Ignatiev/dp/0415918251
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶
Chloe wrote:
What always puzzles me a bit as a white British person (and supposedly a bit Irish according to family legend) is the near glamorisation of the IRA amongst certain Irish-American circles as ‘freedom fighters’ and the aforementioned getting sentimental and suchlike, especially in the current war against terror climate.
I don’t mean to sound offensive with this but it will anyway; I guess it’s different if it’s not your country being attacked.
On another note the whole Irish thing is , in my experience anyway, not seen as quite as distinct here as in the US (from what I gather), maybe I’m a child of the EU age but while our languages and cultures are different I’ve always seen europe (north western europe at least) as pretty similar ethnically. Maybe it’s all those Vikings, celts, anglo saxon , normans etc history lessons or something!
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 5:34 pm ¶
Gothic Guera wrote:
The movie looks pretty interesting. most of my family came from the Island in Europe @ DFP most of the Irish Americans I know hate St. Patrick day, they feel it has nothing to do with their culture. In Ireland it more of a religious holiday(in fact the bars are closed) I have theory that note the Irish Americans are more likely to maintain their culture /identity in the east coast in American, than in the west coast. Also remember that the Irish came from a different ethic tribe , than other Europeans.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 6:57 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
I think many white people do suffer from a sense that “white culture” is bland, stifling, and devoid of any deeper meaning.
This isn’t something intrinsic to whiteness, though. I think it has two causes:
1) Your average existential despair that comes with modern living and is felt by people of any race and ethnicity. It just happens to be channeled through whiteness.
2) The very fact that white people have so much freedom of choice in exploring or ignoring their many possible ethnic, national, regional, political, subcultural identities… and this choice is presented in a very consumeristic way. It’s like walking into a store to buy a pair of jeans and being confronted with twenty different salespeople trying to sell you twenty different styles. As soon you hit a certain age you have to start choosing and shaping your identity by making a series of these kinds of identity choices. After a while it gets to seem very shallow and meaningless.
If you’re not white, you have a lot less choice in defining your identity, but your choices often have greater symbolic meaning.
I think the above is true for most white people… specifically, ones that were not raised with a strong ethnic identity, and feel like their whiteness is a burden. But there are a lot of exceptions too. For example, Amish kids have a very stark, limited identity choice at a crucial point: to be Amish or not.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 8:33 pm ¶
blanky wrote:
Gothic:
From a different ethic tribe?
If you mean ethics, it’s not like all cultures in Europe except Ireland historically agree.
If you mean ethnic, you’ll find more than two in Europe.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:04 pm ¶
CVT wrote:
Hmmm – where can I find this film, so I can see it? It strikes such a chord with me on a couple levels – first, my own struggles with my connection to a Chinese heritage (and a need to “go back” to where I’ve never been); second, my VERY different point of view from my brother on being an “other” (your mention of one brother casually throwing out a racist statement while the other winces sadly echoes some of my own interactions with my brother); and third – I’m a quarter Irish, and I often think about what part that plays in my personal identity.
Thanks for sharing, and I’m looking forward to seeing this film, myself.
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 11:58 pm ¶
Safiya Outlines wrote:
Salaam Alaikum,
As a British person of Irish descent, the whole ‘Irish American’ schtick often makes me cringe. It just seems like an excuse for wallowing in a bunch of negative stereotypes (heavy drinking e.t.c) which have very little to do with Ireland as a modern country.
Also, the pontificating about politics in Northern Ireland by people who wouldn’t be able to tell David Trimble from John Hume, is deeply irritating. I co-sign with Chloe on the funding of terrorism issue. Stiff Little Fingers (quality Northern Irish punk band) wrote a great song on the subject called “Each Bullet for a Dollar”:
“Oh it must be so romantic
When the fighting’s over there
And they’re passing round the shamrock
And you’re all filled up with tears
“For the love of dear old Ireland”
That you’ve never even seen
You throw in twenty dollars
And sing “Wearing of the Green
[Chorus:]
Each dollar a bullet
Each victim someone’s son
And Americans kill Irishmen
As surely
As if they fired the gun
Now you’ve never stood on Belfast’s streets
And heard the bombs explode
Or hid beneath the blankets
When there’s riots down the road
No you’ve never had your best friend die
Or lost a favorite son
But you’ll stand there and tell us
Just what we’re doing wrong”
As for people going on about ‘bland white American culture’, that’s usually a sure sign that someone hasn’t left the U.S much. Go abroad and realise all the differences and you’ll see that you definitely do have a culture. Everyone does.
Posted 20 Sep 2008 at 2:35 am ¶
Gothic Guera wrote:
I meant ethnic tribe historical the Irish came
Gaels, the last wave of Celts.
I agree 100% with you Safiya Outlines
I do feel in the Plastic paddy culture tend to summarizes a the Irish culture that dates back to around 8000 BC, to getting drunk and yelling at random people. On the “white People have no culture” ,I find it funny, since the early 1700 t0 the 20 th century, we believe that the only people that had culture was the Europeans.
Posted 20 Sep 2008 at 11:25 am ¶
al wrote:
my maternal grandparents were to the US from europe and i’ve always wondered (they aren’t alive so i can’t ask them) whether they intended their descendents to be american. i wonder if they would be insulted if i said i’m not irish or not scottish. my grandma never became an american citizen, though she met and married her husband, raised 8 children who she saw raise lots more children and passed away here. when she left the only place she’d known her whole life for economic opportunity in the US, did she think someday her descendants would return to the country she considered ‘hers’ until she died?
i always call my mom on st. patrick’s day because she sees it as a cultural holiday and she appreciates it. but we drink on every holiday (that’s what people of all ethnicities tend to do if they are drinkers). the specific st. patrick’s day celebrations are all about food which i understand (only from my mom, so it could be wrong) to be chosen because of it’s irishness. that is to say, on absolutely no other day of the year would we ever have corned beef and cabbage for dinner.
i guess i just wanted to say that in discussing privilege, modern americans of irish descent are not separate from any other white folks, but in a discussion of identity and culture, they are. which is not to say that any white ethnicities are not also to be separated out in those discussions. but my privilege is firmly rooted in being a white american, while my culture is rooted in being an irish/scottish/italian/catholic american.
Posted 20 Sep 2008 at 3:24 pm ¶
Mary wrote:
What always puzzles me a bit as a white British person (and supposedly a bit Irish according to family legend) is the near glamorisation of the IRA amongst certain Irish-American circles as ‘freedom fighters’ and the aforementioned getting sentimental and suchlike, especially in the current war against terror climate.
It’s indefensible. The only explanation I have (and this is not a defense, but an explanation) is that perhaps some families immigrated to America before 1916; therefore the family “lore” that’s passed down is still focused on Ireland being under British rule.
I recognize a faint similarity to some things I’ve heard from Indian American people: that sometimes if the parents immigrated from India in the 1970s, they are still in a 1970s-India mindset, even though India itself might have moved on.
Posted 20 Sep 2008 at 5:25 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
Interesting subject. I am not Irish, but I have been traveling there off and on for some 20 years. I have been involved with the Irish Republican/civil rights movement for most of that time.
Safiya (comment #29) and I have had our discussions about this issue and have had our disagreements. I think we will agree on what is known by Irish born Irish, as the “Plastic Paddy” syndrome. Those Irish Americans who have little or no connection to Ireland, but often affect the worst stereo-types that can be made of the Irish. Irish born Irish will also call these people “Oi-rish”.
I think this is a movie I’d like to see. It seems to cover some good topics from several different angles.
For me it was my involvement in Irish Republican circles in Europe that originally got me involved in Middle Eastern politics. Irish Republicans, especially those who moved past “Rosary Bead” Republicanism, have had close links to various Middle Eastern liberation groups, especially Palestinians.
There has been a Palestinian presence at every “Ard Fheis” (Annual Convention) of Sinn Fein since 1970. It is my interest in this joint cooperation between Irish Republicans and Palestinians which led me to want to learn and to later convert to Islam.
I avoid most manifestations of what is considered Irish culture in the USA because it tends to play on the worst stereotypes of what some people in the USA think it is to be Irish, or what Irish culture entails.
Interesting to note that although I have been in Ireland during St Paddy’s Day numerous times in the past I had never been in Dublin for the holiday until 2000. Many of the citizens of the town had fled or were staying home whilst the streets were flooded with Americans.
I was taking around an Irish-American police officer friend of mine and his wife. The scene wasnt what Ireland was really about. We end up heading to Belfast, certainly not a Paddy’s Day tourist destination at that time, where he was able to get a better look at what Irish culture was really like. Not a manufactured culture meant to draw American tourist dollars.
Irish Americans and Irish, two different people’s with a completely different cultural frame of reference.
Great post, thanks.
Posted 20 Sep 2008 at 9:10 pm ¶
Pheagan wrote:
@ Bill– I am one of those people whose Irish identity is a near abstract. I’m Scotch-Irish, but I never went through a find your Irish roots things. I hated it when my father cooked Irish dinners, I can’t stand bagpipes or plaid, and I’ve been to many places in Europe, including England, but never Ireland or Scotland– it’s not that I wouldn’t go, but I almost had an anti-feeling-my-roots thing.
Part of it is because I’m a redhead and everyone asks if I’m Irish. It annoys me that no one remembers Scotland and I feel more American than anything else. Also, where I grew up on Cape Cod, Irish people came every summer and stole our jobs. Sorry, that sounds so rude. But you know, it’s a total summertime economy and Irish kids come there for the summer and work, and employers literally go out of their way to find the Irish kids, and Cape Codders’ already narrow choices are made even narrower. So even though I hung with these Irish kids I did have a resentment towards the population in Cape Cod for this– it also proved to me that the Irish are yes, very different from Irish Americans. And they’re none too fond of Americans proclaiming that they’re Irish.
Although I do generally like Irish people a lot, with the laid-backness and the humor, I have found a tendency towards racism. I’ve always assumed it was well known that Irish-Americans have not had the best history of race relations in the world, Spike Lee’s line about going back to Massachusetts to the guy in a Celtics tee is there for a reason. And although I’ve never met a Bostonian with the attitudes depicted in The Departed, I’ve heard it was pretty accurate for the time (70’s).
I’ve noticed that Irish people who come from places other than Dublin have often not seen a person of color in their life and some of the Irish kids I knew have expressed nervousness and fear to me about black people in particular. And I got it into my head from this that Ireland was all white, when in fact there is some color in the cities– actually that’s one of the reasons I never went.
One thing I did have a problem with was the attitude towards sexuality, especially for girls. Actually Irish readers, correct me if I’m wrong for the following, and this is just my experience and it might have been unfortunate– I found out I was referred to as a girl “like that” among a group of Irish kids I hung out with, and I had only dated one of them– as far as they knew I’d only dated that one guy but somehow I’d managed to somehow be sexually inappropriate. I felt a fair bit of disapproval from them for sure, but they were young and older Irish people I’ve known haven’t really given me that vibe. It’s usually girls more than guys, and guys that in Ireland are probably known as nice guys. In Ireland nice guys seem to think girls should only be in serious relationships. Honestly, I don’t know what it is, but I have experienced a lot of disapproval about my sexuality from Irish people, and as I’m not even super open about it, it’s always kind of baffled me. It just seems like the old double standard is a bit stronger among Irish Irish. I believe divorce was only made legal a few years ago. I dunno whether to chalk it up to the incarnation of Catholicism. But I tend not to like to date people who are particularly Christian because I like my sexuality to be free and I expect the tolerance that I give to other people, and I’m sorry, but it seems that the only time I have trouble is with very faithful Christians– my parents were atheists and my mom was ethnically or whatever, because she certainly didn’t practice and neither did her mother, half an Irish Jew, which is a whole ‘nother ballpark.
That is my two cent description of that abstract identity and almost total non-identification with my Irishness. As everyone forgets Scotland, my non-identification with my Scottishness is just a bit less confused because it doesn’t always get prompted by the several comments per day I get about my hair. I mean, I like it too, folks, but can we skip the conversation I’ve already had a million times?
Posted 21 Sep 2008 at 2:09 am ¶
Jay wrote:
I grew up outside Boston and I have an Irish surname but I’ve never really identified as Irish-American.
Nor have I ever much liked Irish-Americans, at least to the degree that they identify as such. I guess a lot of this is class prejudice, the “Irish” kids in my town mostly lived in the projects and South Boston was as scary as any other neighborhood in the city. But I also find what passes for Irish-American culture to be shallow and kind of embarrassing; there’s the music, which is nice, but beyond that? Corned beef and cabbage? Jameson’s and Guinness? Cable-knit sweaters?
I’ve been to Ireland and I have Irish friends; beautiful country, wonderful people, but they don’t seem to have any more in common with Irish-Americans than the Finns or the Dutch.
So I guess I only consider myself “Irish” to the extent that I have to deal with people’s prejudices about Irish-Americans. I have as little in common with Bill O’Reilly as I have with Terry O’Reilly (Boston Bruin–best known for beating up fans in the stands, for those who didn’t follow hockey 25 years ago) and it bugs me that people would associate me with them.
Which I guess is not an uncommon view of one’s ethnicity but I find it weird to see people waxing rhapsodic about “Irish”-ness so often.
As to the IRA thing, yeah I was ashamed of that growing up too. It’s not a hard sell to convince Americans that a group fighting an occupying British army is in the right (or to paint the situation in that light) and there were many fugitives from Northern Ireland here doing just that. Partly I think it’s due to the poverty of what passes for Irish-American culture; hating the English is actually one of its most significant cultural touchstones.
Posted 21 Sep 2008 at 6:47 am ¶
Jess wrote:
Speaking as a New Englander, and specifically from near Boston, I can posit to Chloe et. al. a few reasons why people there supported the IRA so wholeheartedly.
First, the IRA itself was divided between the Marxist (sort of) wing and the more right-wing nationalist side. The latter became the IRA as most of us know it, and despite their pretentions to leftism (at least according to their public pronouncements) the fact remains that it was more akin to the Serbian and Croatian separatists than anything like a socialist/left national liberation movement.
What that means is that for Irish people in Boston, where tensions with other groups were always pretty raw, that has some appeal. I remember in Lynn, there’s a bridge (for trains) that has had “Bobby Sands Will Never Die” on it for 30 years and nobody ever rubbed it out — or even repainted it.
Then there’s the immigration thing Mary brought up. Irish immigration to Boston actually kept up at a relatively steady clip through the 50s and 60s and later, (this is also true of New York and San Francisco). It’s no accident, I think, that those cities are where support for the IRA was high. My hypothesis (based on the trends I saw) is that a lot of the people who came tended to be from poorer areas, almost by definition. Those spots tended to be much more conservative (in a nationalist sense).
Also, there is, in Massachusetts at least, a big break between Irish groups. There’s the pre-famine (pre 1847). There’s the post-famine up to the early 20th Century, and then there’s the postwar group. Ever see The Departed? Mark Wahlberg captures it really well when he says “You lace curtain montherf***er” to the Irish-descended recruit. There’s a huge class difference going on, with the pre-famine immigrants tending to be much wealthier and the post-famine people tending to be in the industrial sectors.
Then there was the fact that so many IRA men escaped to Boston. As a propaganda opportunity it was not to be missed, and it worked brilliantly. If you heard a guy with an Irish accent in Revere, Everett, Chelsea, Boston, or any of those towns, there were always whispers that he might be one of them. And in a few cases it was even true. But the idea was that, here’s this guy escaping an oppressive British police/military.
Given the national myths we have as Americans, and the closeness of Revolutionary War history in Boston, you can imagine how a lot of people would respond positively to that narrative.
Posted 21 Sep 2008 at 9:32 am ¶
Hokayshenao wrote:
Irish culture is definitely still around in American culture. I have have been interested in studies about Ireland and the folklore for quite some time. My great-grandmother’s birthday was on St. Patricks day. I do not know if that counts for Irish, but I have seen the influence in music and fashion.
Posted 21 Sep 2008 at 2:07 pm ¶
asdfasd wrote:
I think people in the diaspora supporting extreme nationalism in the homeland is kind of a common characteristic (to some extent) of a lot of ethnic groups. I’m not saying every ethnic group’s situation is the same but it’s partly just a consequence of one’s homeland seeming more like a symbol than a real place and nationalism being the only place where politics over here intersects with politics over there. I’m Jewish so Irish-American support for the IRA reminds me of religious American Jews who go to live in the West Bank, seeing bumper sticker in my neighborhood with “Hebron” written in Hebrew (Hebron is religiously significant and home to some of the most violent and extremist settlers), etc.
Posted 21 Sep 2008 at 8:41 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
@asdfasd… I agree. The Irish-American support for the IRA is pretty understandable, sociologically.
An even more extreme example was a group of conservative nationalistic Japanese-Brazilians… for five years after 1945, they convinced more than 100,000 people that Japan had actually won the war, and that any reports to the contrary were simply U.S. propaganda. They even engaged in terrorist assassinations against the majority of Japanese-Brazilians who disagreed with them.
One thing that distinguishes Irish-Americans is that for a while, as a group, they were more privileged and richer than Irish nationals. So their financial support for violent groups in the homeland had a really bad effect (as the Stiff Little Fingers song illustrates). I don’t think this is the case anymore, since Ireland has gotten a lot wealthier now. It’s turning into a place where people want to immigrate into.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 7:04 am ¶
nat, london wrote:
As a Londoner I actually find it offensive that so many people here are willing to explain away American financial backing for the IRA – a terrorist organisation but I suppoe if it’s not your kids being blwon up whilst out shopping it doesn’t really matter.
I spent my childhood being scared of going to central London afraid I was going to get blown up. Around 1900 people died and many more injured or viciously assaulted including children. If you can understrand why people would financialy support this then I suppose you can also understand why people financially suppor Al Queada?
Many Americans romanticize the IRA and the ‘Troubles’ but they get their education from Hollywood movies or a dumbed down media. We lived it and saw the reality. Most of the Irish Catholics never supported the IRA they knew it was the wrong way to get they wanted.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 10:03 am ¶
Mary wrote:
“Explaining” is not equivalent to “explaining away.” And exploring the sociological nuances of IRA support in America is not the same thing as suggesting there is MORAL nuance to terrorism.
If you want to draw an al-Qaeda comparison – YES! I want to understand why there is support for al-Qaeda as well. That informs my politics and my vote (whatever that may be worth). What policies do I want my leaders enforcing? Is their understanding of the problem as full as it could be? “Understanding,” in this case, is not an act of sympathy. It is an act of pragmatism.
There is value in understanding why and how terrorist attacks are committed that has nothing to do with sympathy for the terrorists’ actions.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 11:35 am ¶
al oof wrote:
honestly, i can understand why people support terrorism. the french resistance were terrorists too, and folks who would become the americans after our revolution. the US occupying forces engage in terrorism (i mean, who’s more afraid of whom?) i can understand supporting terrorism as a tactic against the oppression you perceive of having forced you from your homeland. i may not agree with killing innocent people for the sake of war, but that isn’t specifically a terrorism issue (what we tend to call terrorism anyway). i mean, how many innocent people were killed by oppressive british laws/actions in ireland? again, i’m not excusing violence or oppression, but fighting perceived oppression makes a lot more sense than perpetrating it.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶
Mike wrote:
It was in university that I was, in a way, forced to adopt Irish-American as an identity. Before university I considered myself as American or white-American because as far back as I can trace my ancestry my forebears were American-born and (according to census records) white. After a few generations here, whatever non-USA culture(s) I came from was not a strong determinant to the language I spoke, the food I ate, the party for which I voted, the activites I enjoyed, or how I worshipped my God.
But going to a mostly immigrant, majority Asian college, when I claimed my ancestry as American or white-American, offense was taken since I was perceived as diminishing or trying to minimize the immigrants and hyphenated first gen Americans that were the significant majority of the studentry. It was as if I was trying to claim be culturally central when, in fact, these descriptions were the most correct labels available to me.
So I went with Irish-American, since, according to family legend, one of my gt-gt-gt-grandmothers may have been Irish. And I look good in green.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 5:11 pm ¶
Katie wrote:
I identify as Irish-American mostly because I’m Catholic and from Massachusetts so it is a whole thing – Irish Catholic. I don’t really have a sense of Irish culture though – it is a modern European country like any other. (It does have a lot of green colors though – in the land.) My family visited Ireland a bunch and we have the diaries of my family who immigrated here, but I don’t see Ireland as a shamrock land.
I am sorry to admit that I have some irrational dislike of England adopted from my grandfather. It isn’t an actual constant distaste, but it is something passed on from my irascible grandfather.
Irish-ness, for me, however fake, is a way to process a whiteness that seems without any cultural heritage. I don’t drink Guiness and I celebrate St. Patrick’s Day as a religious holiday more than anything else, but calling myself Irish Catholic is a way to not just say “white” – it gives me something to hang onto.
I went to Catholic school for 13 years with other O’s and Mc’s and other Irish Catholics. I’ve never really thought about the identification, however. There are Irish Catholics and Italian Catholics where I come from. It’s what we do.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 8:45 pm ¶
Safiya Outlines wrote:
“i mean, how many innocent people were killed by oppressive british laws/actions in ireland? again, i’m not excusing violence or oppression, but fighting perceived oppression makes a lot more sense than perpetrating it.”
Al Oof – By asking that question you are excusing/ justifying violence.
Did the Kingsmill Massacre make sense? Did Niurati Islania’s death make sense?
Killing people, for whatever reason is wrong. Does that make sense?
Go and google John Hume and the SDLP and find out about the work of many in Northern Ireland who worked passionately and peacefully for the Irish Nationalist cause.
Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 9:45 pm ¶
Will wrote:
@Pheagan
Although I do generally like Irish people a lot, with the laid-backness and the humor, I have found a tendency towards racism. I’ve always assumed it was well known that Irish-Americans have not had the best history of race relations in the world, Spike Lee’s line about going back to Massachusetts to the guy in a Celtics tee is there for a reason. And although I’ve never met a Bostonian with the attitudes depicted in The Departed, I’ve heard it was pretty accurate for the time (70’s).
I think there is a distinction between Irish American and Irish. I live in Boston and I find that (I’m generalizing here) that Irish Americans and the old school Irish American power establishment that used to be in Boston is very racist. However, Irish people from Ireland, not so (once again IMHO).
I’ve had Irish friends but no Irish American friends. An Irish friend of mine took me to an Irish-American pub where lets just say I (I’m black) received an extremely chilly reception. He was pretty surprised but I was not. That was par for the course here I’ve had Irish American kids try to pick fights with me by taunting me with the N word.
There is also a class divide to add to the resentment, a lot of Irish Americans in Boston are working class and harbor a lot of resentment to ‘outsiders’ (blacks, foreigners, whites from other states who are not Irish) who according to them have invaded the state).
I think Boston’s Irish American population are also a by-product of the massive divides and hatred created by busing (its funny, that’s still a hot topic here even though it happened over 30 years ago). The Ted Landmark getting the American flag stabbed into his gut photo gives you an idea of just how bad it was.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents, and of course I generalize a lot but its distilling my personal observations from 17 years of living in Boston.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 7:16 am ¶
al wrote:
“By asking that question you are excusing/ justifying violence.”
that doesn’t make any sense. i can understand violence without excusing it.
Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 4:35 pm ¶
katie wrote:
I think that, within a certain generation, the Irish-American romanticism of the IRA was related to the general American late- 1960’s romanticism of radical anti-establishment violence (like the Weathermen, etc.) Sen. Tom Hayden, formerly of SDS, is very open about this connection (as far as I know, he never advocated violence against civilians, though.)
For me, Irish-American identity is wrapped up in very personal things, like sex and childrearing. I never thought of myself as Irish-American until I met other Irish-Americans who talked about their family life, and I saw the connections. There’s something about Irish-Americans that tends to throw them to extremes about everything from deep spiritual beliefs to hobbies – you either have sex a lot or you think anyone who ever had sex even once is a big slut; you talk all the time or you never talk at all; you live next door to your parents, or you rarely call them; you are super religious or you hate religion; you drink too much or not at all; you love to read or you hate it. Of course this is a stereotype, but there are a lot of binaries in Irish-American life.
Posted 26 Sep 2008 at 5:14 pm ¶
SixFootWoman wrote:
“@ atlasien: is the book you refer to How the Irish Became White by Noel Ignatiev? I haven’t read it myself yet, but it’s on my list. I think an understanding of how the notion of “white” developed and what people had to do to join that privileged group is vital to seeing how racism plays out in the U.S.”
Thanks for this reference. I remember reading somewhere years ago that in the first decades of the USA Irish people were not listed as white in the census. My daughter is part Irish from her father.
People always think I am Irish because I have reddish hair and freckles, but I am of mostly Dutch and a little English descent. The Dutch have their own little weird culture, mostly negative, and mostly dying out now. My Dutch grandfather hated all Catholics and especially Italians. (He believed that all Italian men have sex with their daughters.)
However, two of my ancestors emigrated from Holland with French and Spanish surnames…so I think I’m going to have to get one of those DNA tests!
Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 3:25 pm ¶