Comments

1. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

   lol. I’ve been asked why I act “black” and I’ve been asked why I act “white.” I’m South Asian. Can’t I just fuckin be who I am?

   anyway when I hear ‘black Indians’ I think of Indians in INDIA who have black African roots. Somebody should do an article about that.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 10:11 am ¶

2. Cecelia wrote:

   Then people judge you on your skin tone everywhere. With my Ojibway heritage we have lighter skin because we are from the North (known to you as – Michigan, Ontario, Wisconsin, Minnesota) so people have assumed I have been white and it is very frustrating because I only feel connected to being Ojibway. Its like people expect a stereotypical “Indian”.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 11:02 am ¶

3. Angela Marie wrote:

   It is necessary to address this disconnection between the generations and this horizontal hostility between marginalized people. Hip hop is medicine created to uplift young people all people despite living in a society where we are being oppressed. Hip hop is not all about what is represented in the mainstream on TV. Hip hop was created from the Bronx, in the ghetto where marginalized black and latin youth were displaced from their environment and land. Just like the indigenous people of this land now known as canada who have had their land and culture stolen and displaced then forced into urbanization because there is no opportunity on the reservations. Indigenous oral history is no different than rhyming expressing and sharing stories of the present
   all my relations

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 12:36 pm ¶

4. Alwet wrote:

   Thanks for this piece.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶

5. Jess wrote:

   I think I can see a little bit of where the disconnect comes from.

   Vine Deloria wrote a great essay a long time back called “The Red and the Black.” He talks a little about how both are oppressed peoples, but there are reasons the AIM guys didn’t always embrace black people and their struggles right off the bat.

   Some of it was proximity — much of the indigenous rights movement (the part that got the publicity and had the most high-profile cases, anyway) in the modern period was based out west, and there just weren’t that many black folks in South Dakota. Different Native nations have different histories.

   But more important was that (for Deloria) even though black people were brought here forcibly, they are still part of the colonization process, so it was a little hard for people like him to immediately feel they had that much in common. Black people were sometimes offered land (last in line of course) but that land wasn’t freely given — it was taken from someone else. Then there’s the whole history of black soldiers in the West. It just ain’t easy to sympathize with the oppressed minority that took your land just the same.

   Another issue was the way Native people approach their relationship to the U.S. Remember, you’re dealing with what amounts to an independence movement — rather similar to such in European and Asian countries where small states that were subsumed in larger ones want to break away (think of the statelets that cropped up all over the Caucasus region in the last 20 years).

   When the Navajo or Lakota nation talks about treaty rights, they are approaching it from a very different angle than African Americans do. African Americans are looking for recognition of equality within the society (there really isn’t any other realistic choice). Native people are saying “equality is a big yes, but we want our treaties you signed with what amounts to a separate country — just like France or England — respected.”

   Basically, the interests and goals of the two groups were by definition different, though in a lot of places they overlap.

   Given that, I can see where a lot of Native folks, at least those maybe in the 40+ age range, would be a little less hip-hop/black culture friendly.

   By the way I read Katz’s book way back, and I am glad to see it get shown here.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 4:23 pm ¶

6. Nicole wrote:

   To Jess: Yea that might be true, but aren’t we forgetting the fact that Black people have roots in Indigenous culture from Africa? Or the Carribean? Doesn’t their Indigenous-ness count too?

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 5:05 pm ¶

7. Renee wrote:

   I really dislike the idea that there is a way of being Black or being Native. Many ideas or concepts that we associate with race are simply social constructions.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 5:21 pm ¶

8. Sandra wrote:

   It’s shameful, painful and just plain ignorant that we can’t all just ‘be’ human together, but popular culture somehow also seems to thrive on keeping us divided, culturally and otherwise. Thank you Jessica, for yet another one of your wonderful articles about the s**t that actually matters.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 6:31 pm ¶

9. gatamala wrote:

   Jessica thanks for the piece. It IS complicated and a part of the American experience that isn’t explored enough. We’re either perpetual victims or noble sufferers. Slaves or mythical characters. Bogeymen or mascots.

   Jess, you’ve made a good point about the different histories.

   On one hand, we’re proud of the Buffalo Soldiers…but for what? One great grandfather acquired land in N. Georgia that is near where they served…but it was [re]taken away by whites. A great, great grandfather on the other side ran away from Massa, joined the Union and then married [?] a Cherokee. No, she never went back (to my knowledge), but her line still lives.

   Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 7:04 pm ¶

10. Tom wrote:

    I think the point that Jessica is getting at (and Jessica correct me if I’m wrong!) is that these are two inherently Indigenous cultures and that we forget that sometimes, especially when we stereotype, ostracize, pigeonhole, or hurt the other.

    I mean, do Native people only exist in North America? That’s a huge oversight and factually incorrect.

    What language or culture would Black people still have if they were not dragged here?

    Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 7:58 pm ¶

11. Ric Reyes wrote:

    You know, reading this post I thought this situation would be somehow akin to those of afromexicans and mexicans of african descent, specially this:

    “Not to mention of course the number of “Black Indians” there are, who some say represent almost 50% of African Americans today “

    Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 8:05 pm ¶

12. Shelby wrote:

    Thanks for this post. “Black Indians” (I’m pretty sure if it’s the same one you mentioned here?) has been sitting on our coffee table at home since I was little. For me, being “black” MEANT you had native (and white) ancestry. Wasn’t until I got older that I learned black ppl couldn’t claim indian heritage unless you wanted to be a “sellout,” “conceited,” or “self-hating.”
    And many members of my family kinda resent american indians for the same reason they resent white people: slavery. So I guess I could relate to some of what Jess was talking about in her comment.
    It’s a messy history and I wish we could all learn more about it. Maybe then we’d understand each other (and ourselves) w/o so many stereotypes getting in the way.

    Again, great post. Seeing that book title on the main page made me feel at home for a few seconds today. It was nice

    Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 10:01 pm ¶

13. Bob Simpson wrote:

    I used to do a little lesson in history class about who was the first person to set foot on what is now North America. The class was mostly African American and Chicana.

    Most of the African American kids had Creek, Chocktaw or Cherokee ancestors. So we were able to have some fun speculating that maybe someone in the room could trace their ancestry back to the real First American.

    Sometimes the class would be quiet and thoughtful at first…sometimes there was some immediate good natured boasting about it was my great-great etc. who was here first and lots of laughter.

    Either way it was a surefire way to begin a discussion of American history from its actual beginnings.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 2:12 am ¶

14. bdsista wrote:

    I am part Piscataway which a federally unrecognized tribe in Maryland. According to my Elder cousin, many census people classified people according to looks, so even though they were Native, they looked Black. There are different dynamics about being Black/Indian between those out west who have a negative history from the Buffalo soldiers and tend to exclude those who are more mixed as opposed to those on the East coast and the South, where there was a lot of intermarriage from slavery, work and proximity after the land was taken by the whites.
    The Shinnecocks in Long Island for example, go to sea to fish and if their men did not return, the women married Black men rather than whites whom they saw as the oppressors. So they look more like Black people because of the longer time of intermixing. What complicated the dynamic out West was the Trail of Tears where Blacks were marched to Oklahoma along with Native people and it is a damn shame that the Cherokees after all those years of struggle together and suffering have chosen to exclude the descendants of those who are their people.
    I would agree that to be AfricanAmerican now pretty much means you are African/Indian/White unless you were isolated in those islands off the coast of SC and maintained the African bloodlines. (See Daughters of the Dust). Katz is one of my favorite authors and I make sure the school libraries are stocked with his books otherwise our students would NEVER know there were Black people in the (old) West.
    Thanks for a great piece.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 10:12 am ¶

15. Ricky wrote:

    So, I find this to be a common discussion among youth. In Indigenous/Latino/a communities and Asian/Pacific Islander groups there’s a an unspoken insecurity about feeling sort of unauthentic in the hip hop scene/culture.

    I just figured that as far as I could tell, it’s hard to truly trace the *true* roots of hip hop because a lot of different folks took part in it in different ways. And regardless of that, hip hop has become a culture that empowers a lot of youth to have more pride in their identities.

    I always thought of the linking of hip-hop with Blackness (in an exclusive way) was more a product of dominant/mainstream/popular culture. It’s something the white execs have kept a very close link to. There’s been a Indigenous/Chicana/o hip hop culture in California for a long while. And it seems to be a lot about asserting identity (among other things).

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 10:33 am ¶

16. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Ricky – Cosign. This is made tricker though, because so much of hip-hop stands in for other kinds of discussions, and to many people (supporters and distractions) hip-hop has become synonymous with black youth culture.

    I also liked reading in Total Chaos how so many different ideas find a space in hip-hop, and how many of the moves we do and the things we see derived from (or closely paralleled) other cultures and expression. We will explore this a bit more. Jessica’s post was the first in the “Outside the Binary” series.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 10:37 am ¶

17. Jess wrote:

    @nicole –

    the problem isn’t whether someone is “indigenous” since we are all indigenous to someplace. I mean, most Asian people (like Filipinos) come from cultures that could be described that way to. And how would you describe Ossetians, Occitans, Provencals and Catalonians, or Basques?

    For Native folks the thing is, “indigenous to where?”

    Saying “they have an indigenous culture” is like saying “you all lived in tribes so your interests must be the same.” I think everyone here can see how silly that is.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 10:41 am ¶

18. gatamala wrote:

    What complicated the dynamic out West was the Trail of Tears where Blacks were marched to Oklahoma along with Native people and it is a damn shame that the Cherokees after all those years of struggle together and suffering have chosen to exclude the descendants of those who are their people.

    That’s about where my great, great met his wife. He joined the Union in Murfreesboro, TN. That part of the family moved along the corridor from Tulsa to N. Mississippi.

    hip hop has become a culture that empowers a lot of youth to have more pride in their identities.

    very true. The mashup of music, culture, youth and pride is very American.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 11:24 am ¶

19. Jessica Yee wrote:

    Thanks everyone for the comments and discussion!

    I’m a little cautious in proceeding however since I see some “What black folks are saying” and “What Native people are saying” going on here. Do you represent either of those populations? Are you speaking for us?

    I’m just sharing some of my own perspective being Native and what I see in my own community, coming from my community. I can’t estimate to represent anything else.

    By the way, this is a part one of a two-parter I’m working on……still more to come!

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 1:11 pm ¶

20. G.K. wrote:

    @Tom

    The original black people that were dragged here came from Africa, where they already had their own various cultures and countries that they came from—-they didn’t come from nowhere and nothing, as you seem to be implying—that sounds like a ridiculous (and racist) question to me, as if we as black people would not have been anything if hadn’t been kidnapped and forced to come here.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 5:37 pm ¶

21. Ben wrote:

    There are also wider disputes going farther back in the United States at the higher levels of leadership. This was illuminated in the 2000 World Conference against Racism in a dialogue between Natives and African-Americans – where one of the disputes came up over reparations. In a representative discussion, one of the Native delegates addressed the Blacks over the issue, saying “You can have the mule, but the 40 acres are ours”. This came up later at a UN-related meeting where the African American delegation called for recognition of their rights to their traditional lands in the US of A. Understandably, many Native delegates took grave exception to this. This speaks to the depth of some of the disputes you posted, Jess.

    I had the fortunate chance to talk to Angela Davis, famed Black Panther and political prisoner, about this a while back. She has actually been a big follower of Native struggles and could really appreciate that barrier, but agreed that all of us (myself a fellow Native) needed to be engaged in a lot more discussion, especially among members of our younger generations, to help build up those links that are so natural. Even online forums can contribute to a lot of understanding and building solidarity, after we realize how connected our struggles are (thanks Ms. Yee). And that’s going on more than anywhere in the hip-hop cultures, as far as I can report from occupied Canada, where we have seen the rapid expansion of Native rappers, even members of my family, and their acceptance by many of the newer hip hop generation.

    And even though I grew up as a Native kid in the city, listening to nothing else but hip-hop because it was what I understood and connected with, I also do have respect for those in our communities who cast it as another outside influence, as it has clearly demonstrated itself to be. We could pretend many of our youth were in it for deeper, more profound reasons, but a sad reality is that many seem content to recreate some of the worse elements of the culture associated with hip hop – drugs, alcohol, violence, etc. All of these conceptions need much stronger reflection and discussion wherever possible, on the rez or in the hood.

    Posted 17 Sep 2008 at 7:33 pm ¶

22. Shirl Bradley wrote:

    This is a great piece and an even better discussion. I almost feel like I’ve grown just from reading it. It’s certainly softened the edges around some rather prickly opinions I’ve long held about Natives, as well as so called Black Americans who so proudly identify themselves as/with Natives. I’m pleased to say I’ve learned something here today and that my views have been prolifically challenged. Thank you.

    Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 3:34 pm ¶

23. Free wrote:

    My mother used to tell stories of Cherokee and Choctaw women in our family, in particular one legendary Choctaw grandmother who was so strong and fearless she could “knock a man out cold,” as mama used to say.

    This woman who is African (probably from somewhere in the Western region), Cherokee, Choctaw, French, German and English is thrilled to have inherited her fighting spirit. But am I black enough? Depends on whose judging. Native enough? According to what bdsista wrote, the Cherokee would say no. Just enough Anglo-European or too much? Depends on whose looking. I know what I am to myself, but to many I am an exotic curiosity. “You look Brazilian. I’ve been there,” a white woman recently gushed at me. Her offer of friendship has been rejected.

    Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 9:56 pm ¶

24. NancyP wrote:

    Here’s a 2000 documentary:
    Black Indians [videorecording] : an American story / Rich-Heape Films.
    1 videocassette (60 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
    VHS.
    Narrator, James Earl Jones.Director, Chip Richie ; executive producer ; Steven R. Heape.Explores what brought Native Americans and African Americans together, what drove them apart, and the challenges that they face today.
    $24.95
    DBCN: AEZ-9259
    970.00497

    It caught my eye because a woman in one of the tintype photos decorating the tape box reminded me strongly of a friend’s mother. Mostly interviews of BI themselves, with a little bit of historical “expert commentary”. It’s worth viewing. I don’t remember if Katz was one of the historian commentators.

    Moral of story? Don’t use every space to pack as many books or media into the library’s publicly accessible area. Have some display areas and rotate interesting items through – unlikely people will get curious and check them out.

    Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 7:43 pm ¶

25. TxCaddo wrote:

    [Mod Note – See our comment moderation policy. Your comment had nothing to do with what is actually being discussed. We have hosted other conversations about hip hop, but this is specifically about the intersection of two cultures. – LDP

    Posted 29 Sep 2008 at 9:48 pm ¶

26. rm wrote:

    I always get asked by my black husband do you have to act like a black woman? My comment is that i dont i act like a indian woman . His perception on indian women was different than what we really are about i am the first Native American woman he has had a relationship with , and says i will be the last . Which is true because we will always be married. Wish him luck!!!

    Posted 09 Oct 2008 at 9:49 am ¶

27. Lindsay wrote:

    Thank you for writing this and for writing it so tastefully. It has long bothered me that so many young Natives are abandoning their cultures to identify with another, just so they can be cool.

    Posted 12 Oct 2008 at 11:28 am ¶

28. Shelby wrote:

    I’ve enjoyed the evolution of this conversation and would like to share my own story. When growing up my father used to tell me about our Blackfoot ancestry. A history that he knew we had but because of continued blood-quantum rules for the reservations, there was no paper trail to figure out which tribe my grandfather was apart of. Like many Black and mixed people (seemingly synonymous terms) this identity is so overlooked partially because the world engages us based on our phenotypes.

    Last year for the holidays I did get my father that book, to fill in the gaps. While wandering through the barnes ‘n noble, I literally looked for us on the shelf. There was ONE isle reserved for people of color, and it was broken up into ethnic sections. However, who’s to force divisions between our intersectional histories? The way the small isle was divided urked me and just as I was about to leave on the end of the shelf, staring at me, was “A hidden Heritage: Black Indians.”

    The historical background of my Native American heritage may never be completely known, but the more that I know about the general history the more comforted I am for tomorrow.

    Sankofa – know your history.

    Posted 28 Oct 2008 at 1:57 pm ¶

29. jo wrote:

    I agree with Ben. I think NAs can relate to hip-hop. A lot of it talks about struggles in the ghetto and the rez is a ghetto like the barrio. it’s all the same.

    Posted 08 Dec 2008 at 10:52 am ¶