Apparently, Oprah Can’t Have an Opinion or an Ethic

By Sexual Correspondent Andrea Plaid

“Who does that uppity Negress think she is?

In this election, that insult has been hissed at Michelle Obama because of her “ingratitude” for being allowed to be Black and female in the United States. So, when I heard it (again) these past few days, I thought, “Will all y’all lay off the woman? Day-um!”

This time, the hissers aimed at Oprah Winfrey (again), who supports Mrs. Obama’s husband. And from Guanabee, no less. (Thanks to Racialicious reader Mandy for the tip!) The post:

It’s no secret Oprah Winfrey loves Barack Obama. She’s had him on her show twice since 2005 (before he announced he was running for president) and has publicly endorsed him as her Presidential candidate of choice. Which is obviously why she won’t feature Sarah Palin on her show until after the election.

    I made the decision not to use my show as a platform for any of the candidates. I agree that Sarah Palin would be a fantastic interview, and I would love to have her on after the campaign is over.

But during the primaries we noticed that, while Hillary Clinton often led in the polls with women of color, Oprah stuck by her man. So is she just blindly loyal to African Americans? Obviously a lot of people are blinded by Barack Obama, so it’s easy to understand why she would be. But is there more at play here than his charms? What do you guys think?

I’m glad that the Guanabee crew wanted to open it up Winfrey’s decision for a discussion but, to me, there’s no conversation because Winfrey herself said “not now”—you know, that whole “my house, my rules” thing. Winfrey said she’s supporting and endorsing Obama, and she’s sticking with her own…candidate of her own choosing. Furthermore, she’s sticking with the ethics of that decision. This means she’s doesn’t even look like she’s giving her very influential imprimatur to another candidate, whether or not her media brethren and sistren or her own viewers wish to give the others face time, a radio interview, or votes. Also, Winfrey, being the owner and host of her syndicated talk show, is not beholden to the same rules of broadcast journalism, namely to give other political hopefuls “equal time” in the interest of “being objective.” I emphasize: the show’s name is “The Oprah Winfrey Show,” not “NBC News,” “Fox News,” or “National Public Radio.”

So, whether we bloggers or her viewers like it or not, whether “Hillary Clinton led the polls with women of color” or Governor Sarah Palin is, according to the New York Times, “the hottest political star in the firmament,” Winfrey is being ethical.

She gave her word to support Obama, and she’s sticking to it. You know, that whole “one’s word is one’s bond” and “keeping one’s promise” thing. And no, Winfrey is not “standing by her (Black) man.” She’s his political patron, not his intimate partner. That’s what Michelle chooses to do with Barack due her understanding of their marriage, and that’s what Oprah chooses to do with her partner Stedman due to their understanding of their private relationship. Don’t get it twisted…and racist and sexist.

Mandy pointed out the same thing:

Oprah’s show is not a news show— it is a show about HER, her preferences, the guests she wants to have on, if she likes beef or not, and what she wants to give away to members of her studio audience on any given episode. The fact is, there is no reason to believe that she is “blindly loyal to African Americans,” especially when she said nothing about the issue of race (or gender) whatsoever. The only reason you can even pose this question is because SHE is Black. Would this same question even be considered appropriate to ask if another, obviously Democratic, NON-Black talk show host decided not to have Sarah Palin on his/her show because she was a candidate that was not remotely interesting to them politically?

Like if Rachel Maddow decided not to interview Palin until after the election. Or at all.

Other offered other reasons, some similar to Mandy and mine, as to why Winfrey may have delayed talking to Palin.

no_guey! wrote:

Seriously, maybe it’s the VP candidate’s stated ambivalence towards civil rights, or her characterization of community organizing as a dalliance.

Latin_Princess commented:

I watch Oprah. I’ve even been to a taping in Chicago. And that show is called Oprah for a reason… it’s all hers and everyone there plays by her rules. If she does/does not want someone on the show, nobody can tell her otherwise.

Xica_xicana had the most snap-tastic response:

This is the first time Oprah has openly endorsed and campaigned with/for a candidate, so of course she wouldn’t want to have Sarah Palin on her show. The interview would go something like this:

“So you don’t believe in teaching sex education in school? Now lets meet your daughter who didn’t know dick until it was in her….”

It is obvious that McCain is using her to play off people’s blind ignorance. This race is still being made about choosing between a white woman and a black man. Lets stop letting aesthetics determine the candidate we choose.

Some the post’s responders were making the choice for the white woman to appear on “Oprah”…and how dare that Black woman feel any different her white female fans! In other words, “Who does that uppity Negress think she is?”

IT’S TIME FOR AMERICA TO DENY OPRAH ACCESS TO OUR TELEVISION SETS
Oprah gives advice on relationships, but has a boy friend who is a door mat … gives advice on marriage, but has never been married …gives advice on child rearing, but has no children … gives advice on Obama, but was a member of Jeremiah Wright’s anti-American racist church for several years. Now, her white women’s audience, which made Oprah rich, wants to know more about Sarah Palin, but Oprah says NO. No Oprah, No Wright, no Farrakahn, no Ayers, no Rezko, no mean Michelle, NOBAMA

Posted by Gina

@ Gina: Oprah is also a philanthropist and gets many people to read that wouldn’t otherwise. And her “white women’s audience” can look up information about Sarah Palin on their own time. They don’t need Oprah for that.

Posted by chana la chile

@Chana La Chile: Wow nice statement – “do it on their own time??” Remember it was her “white Audience” who made her what she is today… Opral is very prejudice in this race – her show has always been about focussing on women moving up and accomplishing new horizons – she owes it to her audience to have Palin on her show… however, I am sure many of her “white audience” is growing as tired of Opral as I am!!

Posted by Connie

So, apparently, Oprah just can’t be an ethical African American woman and a Black citizen who knows, states, and backs up her political choices. No, she’s at white women’s (and some Latinas’) bidding; she does whatever they want her to do—even if it means giving the appearance of supporting a candidate whose policies and ideas go against what she believes in—because she should be so grateful for those women enriching her Black female life. I’m disappointed that Guanabee, a sistren blog whose writers have been cross-posted here at Racialicious, would join in the hissing when some of the same white women who are so down for Palin and so mad at Winfrey would turn around and start hinting and/or hissing at them to “go back to where you came from” along with few choice anti-Latin@ racist epithets.

Don’t y’all drink the kyriarchal kool-aid, too, Guanabee.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Hell No!: Apparently, Oprah Can’t Have An Opinion or An Ethic « The Cruel Secretary on 29 Aug 2009 at 10:52 pm

    [...] Hell No!: Apparently, Oprah Can’t Have An Opinion or An Ethic (Originally posted at Racialicious) [...]

Comments

  1. Tariq Nelson wrote:

    Why is no one mentioning that Oprah is not having Biden either???

    They are acting like Her Majesty Queen Palin is the Presidential candidate. If Oprah were having Biden and NOT having Her Majesty, then we could say that she is biased.

    Otherwise, what is the big deal?

  2. ceecee wrote:

    did she have HRC on her show? I honestly don’t know…

  3. Sobia wrote:

    @Tariq:

    “Why is no one mentioning that Oprah is not having Biden either???”

    The reason, I believe, is that ‘they’ indeed want this presidential campaign to be about a White woman versus a Black man. Biden doesn’t fit either one. They assume that women are mindless voters who will support any set of ovaries.

    It honestly sickens me to see this whole “if you’re a woman you should support women, regardless” mentality. Especially considering that Obama’s presidency would be much better for women than would Palin’s vice-presidency. If anything, Palin would be detrimental to women’s rights.

    Is it just me or do statements such as “Now, her white women’s audience, which made Oprah rich” and “she owes it to her [White] audience to have Palin on her show” eerily hint at a slavery mentality? White people employ her so now she must serve them. Forget the fact that she worked her own ass off to get where she is. Does this White audience want a reward for accepting her?? Are they watching her just to prove how “progressive” they are?

  4. LM wrote:

    Agreed that the Guanabee piece is ridiculous. But the ethics at play here have nothing to do with Oprah’s “political choices” and “sticking with” Obama. She can change her mind about endorsing him at any time.

    All that matters is her pledge to avoid having any candidates on during this election season. Punto.

  5. JD/ formerly J wrote:

    I had a friend who always used to say that (in spite of what we thought) Oprah was not redefining Black feminity in America but re-inforcing it. He called Oprah the baby sitter of white women…( parhaps in reference to Marmie roles)…I always thought that was a rather cynical view but now I realise that perhaps he was right.

    I remember some commentators going so far as to say she had become too big for her britches? wtf?

    Obviously white women are getting ready to fire their nanny.

    Oh well at least she is rich.

    BTW notice that no-one cries racism because white women are supporting the white woamn candidate but Oparh is considered racist for supporting the black man candidate. Just another way whiteness is normalised.

    I really cant wait for 2042 when white people become a minority here and all start moving to Australia or some other place…tehehe

  6. Mary wrote:

    Oprah is getting swiftboated. They’re whipping up a froth about TEH EVIL LIBRUHLS that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand.

    No, I don’t know who “they” is, if whole groups of people are independently stupid enough to jump on the anti-Oprah pro-Palin bandwagon, r if the evil hand of Rove is pushing it – the latter would not surprise me at all.

  7. Mary wrote:

    Please note, I’m not saying you’re inherently stupid if you’re pro-Palin and anti-Oprah. I’m saying that if you’re going to support Palin and oppose Oprah, this is a stupid reason to do it.

  8. Ron wrote:

    Is anyone really suprised that some people would attack Oprah for not supporting their candidate.

    Every person seeking publicity or promotion would love to be Oprah’s show but she determines who comes on her show.

    The fact that some of her audience would say that they made her shows that they discount her tremendous talent. These people who wish to use her for their bidding and agenda shows that they do not appreciate her humanity.

    Oprah will never be quite fully human to these people. I hope Oprah does not give in to the pressure.

  9. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Tariq Nelson–I disagree. Winfrey gave Obama her support when both the Republican and Democratic presidential nominations were up for grabs. Now that both have been decided and the VP choices made, Oprah, in her support for Obama through supporting Obama’s choice for VP, could reasonably have Biden on the show if that’s her choice. And she still doesn’t have to have Palin–or McCain, for that matter.

    It’s the equivalent of inviting a couple to one’s home: the implicit understanding is the couple is seen as a unit and are treated as such. And the host(s), because it’s zie’s/their home, can decide which couples to invited to the home. However, it would be seen as a horrible social transgression to only invite one member of the couple and not the partner.

  10. J.R. Bernard wrote:

    I understand where certain people may think that Oprah is obliged to have Palin on her show to be fair to her ‘viewership’.

    But then, these are the same people that would most likely, in the ‘interest’ of advancing women roles in society, vote for Palin regardless of her platform.

    Which is of course wrong. Just as it is for those people who vote for Obama because he is black.

  11. Dawud wrote:

    The irony of this criticism is that I know many Blackamericans, who say that Oprah panders too much to Whites and that she isn’t “Black” enough. Oprah can win for loosing, can she?

    Oprah can have who she wants to have on.

    Has she even had former First Lady Barbara Bush, who thought that the Katrina victims were living a good life in the Houston Astrodome, on her show? I don’t think so.

    Besides, Palin has been turning down the one on one “hardball” interviews anyway thus far. Let her go on Chris Mathews or Keith Olberman on MSNBC, then make her way to Amy Goodman on Democracy Now before anyone cries about her not being invited on Oprah. Geesh!

  12. kim h20s wrote:

    i am so sick of hearing people always talk about what oprah should do or what oprah has an obligation to do. oprah does not have any moral or ethical obligation to her viewers. at best she has a business / ethical obligation to run her company profitably so that the many people she employees do not lose their jobs. but as many people have stated, for whatever reason, people want to listen to her opinions. i like oprah for the simple fact that she has the best self-esteem i’ve ever seen! bravo for the black woman in this country who owns her own show, owns her own studio, puts HERSELF on the cover of her magazine every month and people still want more.

  13. allheavens wrote:

    I mentioned this “swiftboating” of Oprah in an eariler post under a different topic.

    But Oprah is an entertainer not a journalist. The show is called Oprah not Every Conversative White Woman’s Wet Dream . And for the very same women who were cooing at every new age movement or belief Oprah sold to them but now demonizing her because she will not have “their candidate” on her show is just too rich.

    I thought McCain was the Republican Party Presidential Candidate but to hear these women rant you would think it was Palin.

    They want to boycott her show and her advertisers because Oprah as shown her “true colors, Black”, WHATEVER.

    Well guess what ladies, it is about 20 years and a billion and a half dollars too late.

  14. Lyonside wrote:

    This caught my attention – and I’m someone who really doesn’t enjoy the OW Show or any women’s talk shows generally:

    >Now, her white women’s audience, which made Oprah rich, wants to know more about Sarah Palin, but Oprah says NO.

    For the sake of little green apples – the “white women’s audience” did not make Oprah rich – do they pay to be on or watch her show? Do they pay a fee for access to the TV or a live audience? Hells no – that’s not how US TV works. And how condescending it is that a segment of the audience not only claims that the success is all theirs, but that they’re the only ones that matter?

    To paraphrase Frasier, what color is the sky in their world?

    The network pays Oprah’s production company for syndication of her show. The advertisers pay for the time based on viewership, yes, but they also pay based on the time of day it shows, and all other kinds of factors. Yes, her target audience is a factor, but it’s one driven by market research and lots of variable intangibles. It’s INDIRECT. Oprah’s smart business moves and expansions and ownership of her own company are what give Oprah Winfrey her paycheck.

    Since she owns the show and is responsible for its content, she can do whatever she wants. The fact that she’s already stated that she won’t have anyone from either campaign on the show until at least after the elections is her decision (and IMO a fair one). Boycott away if you disagree, but unless you’re a Neilson family or happen to join a focus group that includes the program or the network or advertisers, etc, it’s not going to make a difference. It’s not going to stop other people who are less gung-ho for your position from watching, and it’s not going to make the laundrymat down the block turn off the show either.

  15. LM wrote:

    @ Andrea re: your comment #9 responding to Tariq…

    To follow on my comment #4, no, couldn’t have Biden on her show — not after what she said when she endorsed Obama. She said she was making her personal choice public and wouldn’t use her show as a forum for any candidates… Barack Obama included. (She had him on twice, the second time three months before he announced his candidacy in January 2007.)

    I think you’re right in noting that Oprah is getting flak at a particular level and of a particular type because she’s a black women. But I think the defenses you lay out in your article allow for further debate — and Oprah’s own position is already rock solid.

  16. allheavens wrote:

    Lyonside wrote:

    The network pays Oprah’s production company for syndication of her show. The advertisers pay for the time based on viewership, yes, but they also pay based on the time of day it shows, and all other kinds of factors. Yes, her target audience is a factor, but it’s one driven by market research and lots of variable intangibles. It’s INDIRECT. Oprah’s smart business moves and expansions and ownership of her own company are what give Oprah Winfrey her paycheck.

    THANK YOU, Lyonside. To hear these women you would think Oprah was making offline product sales during commerical breaks and passing the hat after every show to pay for her production cost.

  17. atlasien wrote:

    Speaking of frothing attacks on Oprah, I’ve been looking for an excuse to post this video, which has to be seen to be believed.

    You might think that guy is broadcasting from an insane asylum, but he’s actually been invited on several Fox News shows as a political commentator.

  18. jvansteppes wrote:

    If women of color really did support HC more than BO [is this true? It doesn't resonate with most of what I read] it’s not a matter of Oprah being unfair, it’s a matter of Oprah being relevant. If she’s not relevant to those people they don’t have to watch her show.
    She’s also the kind of entertainer who often does take into account what her audience writes to her, so maybe they ought to do a campaign for a show that would make them feel included, like a panel of black women with different political opinions or something like that.
    Oprah is hardly everything to everyone but at the same time she has had Bush on the show and I’m pretty sure Laura Bush has been on too.

    And what’s with this BS about her using Stedman as a doormat? Why, because she doesn’t trot him out to prove her own allegiance to marriage? I’d say her relationship is pretty inspiring to heterosexual women who’d like to have their own life outside a relationship and yet keep that union stable. I’m not even an Oprah fan but that comment really irks me.

  19. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ LM–as I said in my comment, friend: “Now that both have been decided and the VP choices made, Oprah, in her support for Obama through supporting Obama’s choice for VP, could reasonably have Biden on the show if that’s her choice.

    If she’s decided that her supporting Obama from the outset and do nothing more than that with her show, then I’m cool with that. And I appreciate your clarification/counterargument; to that I say fair enough. However, LM, that’s really not what grinds me about what Guanabee wrote. What grinds me is what I said in the last paragraph:

    I’m disappointed that Guanabee, a sistren blog whose writers have been cross-posted here at Racialicious, would join in the hissing when some of the same white women who are so down for Palin and so mad at Winfrey would turn around and start hinting and/or hissing at them to “go back to where you came from” along with few choice anti-Latin@ racist epithets.

    Your thoughts on that?

  20. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ LM–also I don’t think you and I really disagree. As I said in my original post:

    “Winfrey said she’s supporting and endorsing Obama, and she’s sticking with her own…candidate of her own choosing. Furthermore, she’s sticking with the ethics of that decision. This means she’s doesn’t even look like she’s giving her very influential imprimatur to another candidate, whether or not her media brethren and sistren or her own viewers wish to give the others face time, a radio interview, or votes.”

    Again, I’m sincerely interested in hearing your thoughts to the question I posed in my comment #19.

  21. Mandy B. wrote:

    Thanks for following up on this, Racialicious :)

  22. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Mandy B–no, friend, thank you for giving us the tip. Now that we have you here with us, did you want to expand on what you wrote at Guanabee? Or add further thoughts/reflections/critiques?

  23. Free wrote:

    Remember how upset Oprah’s white female audience became when she lost all that weight? She was gorgeous and they couldn’t take it ’cause they lost their Mamma O! Lyonside you are so correct. Oprah made her own success and yet, some white women want the credit. I guess Virginia Woolf’s Room of Her Own is exclusively for white women.

    Side note: has anyone seen the cover of Globe.? Apparently, Oprah and Obama’s Wife, are in a feud, (They can’t even use her name. Michelle you a-holes, her name is Michelle!). In the cover photos, Oprah’s lookin’ sweaty and confused and Michelle is an angry black female time bomb about to go off! I think this is part of the swift boating of Oprah and of course, the continued harassment that Michelle has to endure.

  24. LM wrote:

    TCS, yes, you and I agree on the Guanabee post. My word was “ridiculous.” About the “same white women who are so down…” — to me, they’re irrelevant to this discussion. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but I don’t think they’re a necessary, or even good, basis for argument.

    That’s ultimately my contention here, that I think some of your argument weakens, rather than strengthens, Winfrey’s position. (She doesn’t care about that, but those who would attack her might.)

    About the point you repeat in #20 — that not having Palin or another candidate on her show “means she doesn’t even look like she’s giving her very influential imprimatur to another candidate” — I think you oversimplify the role or potential of any interview.

    Winfrey could invite Palin on and give her the James Frey (January 2006 interview, not September 2005 book recommendation) treatment. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be considered Winfrey’s “imprimatur.”

    I don’t equate “Oprah” to “Meet the Press,” but I would hate for Palin’s appearance alone on the latter show to be considered an endorsement. Though I don’t like the fact of her candidacy and its impact on the race thus far, I don’t deny that she is part of one of the two major tickets out there. Show me a fawning interview and I’ll be mad. But tell me that she’ll be on and I’ll watch.

    For what it’s worth, I think it’d be fine if Winfrey changed her mind and had the candidates on at this point. I think that’d be a risky move on her part (for her — I’m not talking about impact on the race) and I think it’d be outright wrong for her interests if she only invited Biden on because his tie to Obama.

    In the end, her stated rationale from months back stands on its own. My understanding is that she essentially said, I’m announcing my support for Obama, and I understand/hope that my celebrity might make a difference — but I will not use my show as a platform for that stance. It’s hard for many people to separate Oprah the celebrity from “Oprah,” and many people just refuse. Hence the kind of thing we see in the Guanabee post.

    Hope I addressed everything with some clarity.

  25. Panther wrote:

    @Sobia you said it, “Does this White audience want a reward for accepting her?? Are they watching her just to prove how “progressive” they are?”
    ..and there you have it! So now this is a dictatorship ran by white women??? A LIE! O -keep that baby machine off your show doll!

  26. Katie wrote:

    Did you guys see what Fox news had to say about this? Granted, it’s Fox news, so the chances of it being upsetting are already pretty high, but this was especially ridiculous.

    Quote on what FoxNews thinks Oprah should say: “But I must say, to be 44, a former point guard and beauty queen, a Governor, a reformer with five children, AND a special needs child and now the first Republican woman to be nominated Vice President. You have electrified women across the country. It’s monumental and as I woman I feel so proud. (Oprah raises her palm) High five girlfriend.”

    http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/09/08/atantaros0908/comment-page-2/

  27. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @LM–thanks for the clarification, but I honestly thinking you’re missing the point of my post, the question I directly post to you, and, perhaps, Oprah’s considerable influence. So, let me see if I can further clarify my points:

    Oprah, whether people like it or not, holds an incredible influence in pop culture. Her words move products and gets people to do things. Her saying that she liked (and subsequently retracted her like of) James Frey or endorses Senator Obama serves as an imprimatur for those people. (Her nickname isn’t “Pope-rah” for nothing.) And she doesn’t necessarily have to *explicitly* state that she likes a person or a product, either. Oprah’s reputation–her “brand,” as it were, and her power–is such that she can beside a person and people think she’s endorsing zie.

    Now, at the outset of this whole presidential season, Oprah could have easily said she wasn’t having she wasn’t having anyone on her show, period. And she could have also not endorsed a soul. Period. Now, my chronology may be off, but it seems to me that she made that announcement after she endorsed Obama. But even if she said her show would be a candidate-free zone before her endorsement, the reason why is because, I suspect, she doesn’t want to give the impression that she endorses them or give them an opportunity to espouse views or policies she doesn’t agree with. (I suspect her having to grin some teeth at our current president when he was on her show may have left a bad taste in her mouth, enough to say “not again.”) Again, Oprah’s brand is all about endorsing what she thinks is good—and that “equal time” rule wasn’t good enough for her for the very fact that she was giving equal time to people whose policies she may have opposed. In other words, Oprah’s brand is about personal integrity–and her numbers, from the best-sellers to her ratings to the numbers of people voting for Obama because of her endorsement, say that may people believe in her integrity. That same attribute, according to her, is why she endorses Obama and why she tore a new one into James Frey. And her show that she owns is her forum to convey her sense of integrity. That she endorses Obama and is doing what she wants to do to make sure that her endorsement—her imprimatur, her approval—isn’t compromised by bringing on Palin or anyone else is her keeping her promise to herself to stick to her integrity to give the slightest impression that she and to Obama to support him. And Oprah’s approval is such that she really doesn’t need to have Obama is on her show to further officially endorse his campaign, now does she? Now that, LM, is the power of Oprah’s imprimatur. Not too shabby for a Black woman—in generations past, Oprah would have been laughed at…or lynched.

    And I do think “the white women making Oprah” is a very relevant argument. The argument states that Oprah, instead of doing what she thinks is right—having the integrity to vocally and financially support her candidate and keeping others off her show—and should do what her “white women” viewers tell her to do because “they made her rich” is a hideously racist argument to its rotten core. What it’s really saying, IMO, is Black women, regardless of their socio-economic standing, are and will always be beholden to white women, that we cannot have a moral compass that doesn’t function outside of white women…and we should be grateful for that station in life. And be damned if we act on our moral compass.

    The kicker–which you still didn’t address beyond agreeing with me that it was “ridiculous” (Why, LM, is it “ridiculous” to you exactly?)—is that the people who are saying that Oprah can’t stick to her ethics and her ideas about her show and her chosen presidential candidate–are Latina bloggers who have cross-posted and have been guest contributors on this anti-racist blog. This is a group of brown people attacking a Black woman for following her principles by 1) saying it’s race-based and 2) wanting her to invite someone who belongs to a party that have said things and made policies that have been antithetical to many Black and Brown people (and many non-Black and non-brown PoCs and those racialized as such, like Muslims), and certainly anti-racism efforts in general.

    See, I could understand if the Guanabee bloggers said: “Oprah refuses to interview Palin until after the election. Whatcha think?” Or even said, “We’re McCain/Palin supporters, and we’re wondering why Oprah won’t have our woman Palin on her show?” Or, “We’re hating McCain, but we dig Palin. Oprah doesn’t, which is why she won’t have our woman on her show. Thoughts?” No. We get “Oprah’s sticking with her people” and this underhanded attack on Oprah’s integrity. By other PoCs. In a country that constantly degrades and denigrates the minds and morals of both Black women and Latinas. That’s why I’m disappointed—hurt, really–by Guanabee: I feel betrayed by an ally.

    Honestly, I don’t think my argument weakens Oprah’s at all: it’s another way of understanding why she did what she did. And I don’t think our arguments are incompatible—yours of Oprah closing off her show to all candidates, including her chosen candidate, and mine of her not wanting to have Palin on the show (or even having Biden on the show, if she chose) as her showing her continued support for Obama—at all. Because what we both saying is Oprah is sticking with her ethics. The more interesting argument is why would a crew of Latinas—who belong to a racial/ethnic group that’s stereotyped as having questionable morals and who cross-post on and contribute to a space that questions racial (and racialized) stereotypes on the regular—would do the same thing with such effed-up reasoning, namely that “Oprah’s sticking with her own kind”…when the (white) woman they want to see on Oprah has some effed-up policies of her own that could affect Latinas and Black women alike and some of the white female who are angry at Oprah and support Palin do so because they want to see Palin talk McCain into implementing some of those effed-up policies precisely because they affect Black women and Latinas. (And wouldn’t hesitate to spew their hatred at the Guanabee crew if given the chance.) There’s a divide-and-conquer dynamic going on with that Guanabee post that I’m not feeling.

    But, if you really disagree with my reasoning that much, LM, then you and I have to agree to disagree.

  28. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Oops, noticed this. Let me finish this thought. This–”That she endorses Obama and is doing what she wants to do to make sure that her endorsement—her imprimatur, her approval—isn’t compromised by bringing on Palin or anyone else is her keeping her promise to herself to stick to her integrity to give the slightest impression that she”–should read like this:

    “That she endorses Obama and is doing what she wants to do to make sure that her endorsement—her imprimatur, her approval—isn’t compromised by bringing on Palin or anyone else is her keeping her promise to herself to stick to her integrity to give the slightest impression that she giving equal weight to ideas that she really opposes…”

  29. Mandy B. wrote:

    Well, I sure am glad that we got the opportunity here at Racialicious to go into detail about this. I think that this Gbee post speaks to a wider hidden trend of people being suspicious of people’s motives for voting for Obama…Not only would this have not happened to another talk show host, this also would not have happened if the talk show host were supporting a non-Black candidate. It is a great way to smear both Oprah and question the legitimacy of the Obama campaign. Especially the “blinded by Obama”–wow, that’s a great value judgment there. Using the term “blinded” sort of insinuates “against their better judgment, his supprters are just like little lemmings.” I’m a white female. I support Obama. But you know what, I sholdn’t have to explain that, or use it as an extra bonus point for Obama, like “See, he really DOES count. I’m white!”
    Excuse the wordiness.

  30. Mandy B. wrote:

    AJ, I hadn’t read #27…Good summing up of exactly how I felt. Couldn’t have, and didn’t, say it better.

  31. jen* wrote:

    atlasien

    Apparently, my dad has a friend who sends him links to see this crazy ATLAH dude. When I watched one of his videos and he said that he didn’t want to be black, because black people are bad or stupid or something, that’s when I knew this guy was a couple froot loops short of a bowl.

    Somebody should leave him a note and let him know that his prediction for vp was a little off. [Still can't believe they let him on Fox News. And yet, I sorta can.]

  32. LM wrote:

    TCS,

    Why I think the Guanabee post was ridiculous (post in quotes, my comments after):

    “(Winfrey) has publicly endorsed (Obama) as her Presidential candidate of choice. Which is obviously why she won’t feature Sarah Palin on her show until after the election.” No, she’s not having Palin on before the election ’cause she said she wouldn’t. (I don’t disagree, TCS, about Winfrey’s imprimatur or her awareness of it — but as you mentioned, she made her pledge to keep candidates off her show before the election and she’s sticking to it. Yes, we agree that such a stance is ethical.)

    “But during the primaries we noticed that, while Hillary Clinton often led in the polls with women of color, Oprah stuck by her man.” And so the f___ what?

    “So is she just blindly loyal to African Americans?” To borrow Mandy’s line, “The only reason you can even pose this question is because SHE is Black.”

    “Obviously a lot of people are blinded by Barack Obama, so it’s easy to understand why she would be.” That’s more than a bit demeaning.

    To your other points:

    1. I’m well aware of Oprah’s “considerable influence.” I agree in full with your second paragraph in #27. I’m not sure how to quantify that any further, but I’d be perfectly happy to have a more nuanced discussion of this area off-line.

    But to our use of “imprimatur” — I consider that the word carries positive connotations, and I was just suggesting that if Winfrey brought Palin on her show with the intent to eviscerate, people would know how Winfrey felt, even if they never watched the show. This is in part because of her power — the event simply would not be overlooked in the way that a “Meet the Press” interview is by most “regular” people. I’m not suggesting Winfrey would or should do have Palin or any other candidate on, just that having a guest on in and of itself is only an endorsement if Oprah treats them neutrally. Understand, this is a hypothetical that I’ve stretched to the breaking point — but it’s been a hypothetical all along, since Winfrey said she wasn’t bringing any candidate on the show.

    2. My fuller answer to your question in #19, your disappointment that such a post would come from Guanabee: I didn’t believe the writer set out to carry water for “some of the same white women who are so down for Palin and so mad at Winfrey.” I’m disappointed that Guanabee would carry such a post, period, wouldn’t matter if white eyes never saw it. I don’t dispute that some white women would cite Guanabee’s post happily and then do wrong by Latinas… but I doubt that the writer of the post was thinking, “I need to stand up for people who are eventually going to turn on me.” I see the divide-and-conquer effect but the post is ridiculous with or without those white women reading and/or responding to it. And those white women don’t need Guanabee to advance their agenda. There’s plenty more to mine on the philosophical, political and societal ramifications of POC solidarity (I know you didn’t use the phrase) but I’m already writing too much here. Just know that it’s on my mind… I wasn’t disregarding that paragraph.

    3. The point of your post — to your credit, you weaved a lot into it. I happened to disagree with some and have, I hope, elucidated this. My focus on these areas wasn’t meant to distract from your other arguments, which have received plenty of attention from others in this thread.

    I say “Amen” to your “Will all y’all lay off the woman? Day-um!” We are indubitably on the same page here.

    With you, too, that her show reflects “her sense of integrity.”

    Was never disagreeing with you that the “white audience” argument from Gina and Connie in the Guanabee comments is “hideously racist.” I was just saying that their existence/presence isn’t necessary to be disappointed at the Guanabee post.

    Apologies if I’ve missed anything. And thank you for expanding my vocab (kyriarchal).

  33. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    I apologize for neglecting the rest of you wonderful commenters. You know that I appreciate your insights on my first post as Sexual Correspondent…though, it had nothing to do with sex, did it?:-D

    All right, let me see….
    @ ceecee–no, Oprah didn’t have HRC on her show, friend. I know that she had Al Gore and GW Bush on in 2000.

    @ Sobia–I definitely agree with your saying that the discourse is still about a white woman and a Black man. But it’s such an odd conversation to me because people seem to conveniently forget that the white woman in this case is the VP candidate while the Black man is the presidential candidate. I mean, it’s historic that she’s a VP, but it’s historic for the Republicans, not necessarily for the overall US politics. Remember, Geraldine Ferraro did it the first time ever on any major-party ticket. (Regardless of how I view GF–and it’s a pretty dim view–I’ll give her that one. But that’s about it.) Then again, I don’t think it’s about Palin being a white woman and Obama being a man so much as this election being about a “referendum on white supremacy,” to use Dr. Melissa Harris-Lacewell’s phrase. Again, I quote her:

    The 2008 presidential election is a referendum on white supremacy. I believe that these folks are trying to see just how powerful whiteness is. How many privileges are attached? Can you come from the party that has run the country into the ground domestically and internationally; field a presidential candidate who can’t remember the country with whom we are at war; choose for him a VP with no experience and a trail of scandals; and still win against the most inspirational candidate of the past 50 years? The GOP seems to be saying: “if the other guy is black, Yes We Can!”
    http://princetonprofs.blogspot.com/2008/09/family-values.html

    @JD–Oh well at least she is rich.Honestly, JD, you need to stop eavesdropping on my convos with my mom.:-D Seriously, that’s pretty much what she said about Oprah’s endorsement: “She’s well invested. She knows she lost some folks when she first endorsed Obama. And she knows she’ll lose some by not having Palin on the show. But she also knows she won’t starve by doing so.”

    @ Mary–They’re whipping up a froth about TEH EVIL LIBRUHLS that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand.
    What I said to JD about the eavesdropping? You, too, friend. LOL

    @Ron–I hope Oprah does not give in to the pressure. Somehow, someway, I believe that if Oprah can whup a bunch of Texas cattle ranchers’ behinds–in court, no less–then she can handle this. And I don’t think too many people are surprised about the attack on Oprah itself so much as who attacked her–in this case, Guanabee–and how.

    @ J.R. Bernard–agreed.

    @ Dawud–I’ve heard the same things from *some* Black Americans, too. And there are others who loooooove them some Oprah. But you’re right about Palin so far rejecting going on the “newspinion” shows like Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, and Rachel Maddow. So far, the only one I’ve heard about is ABC News and Charles Gibson. But nothing says you’ve arrived like The Oprah Winfrey Show.

    @ kim h2os and allheavens–completely agree, y’all.

    @ Lyonside–I’m with allheavens and Free: I love your break down, friend. And this?

    “And how condescending it is that a segment of the audience not only claims that the success is all theirs, but that they’re the only ones that matter?

    To paraphrase Frasier, what color is the sky in their world?

    Oh SNAP!

    @ atlasien–Jeez-ow, friend. SMH

    @ jvansteppes–you know I loves you, so I don’t need to say more beyond that. And I see your point about the solution of having Black women presenting various political viewpoints. (Cynthia McKinney, Carol Mosley Braun, Melissa Harris-Lacewell, Amy Holmes, Condeleeza Rice…and bell hooks, for good measure.) But then I hear the argument against that from some of that protesting crowd: “But *they* really don’t represent *me*…”

    @ Free–yeah, that Globe (Boston Globe, by chance?) really points to how hard it is for some media outlets to talk about Black women without resorting to stereotypes and other forms of erasures. Damn.

    @ Panther–O -keep that baby machine off your show doll! Be nice, friend. Though I can’t stand Governor Palin, I’m not going to slam her on the basis of her having the number of children she has. Her being all abstinence-only and anti-abortion however? Let me at her!:-D

    @katie–LOL!

    @Mandy B–I loved your analysis of the double-smear against Obama and Oprah. Now that’s a high-five, girlfriend!;-)

  34. bianca wrote:

    Thanks AJ for writing this and thanks to folks who are responding, it’s good “food for thought.” I have to admit that I too am hurt, as AJ, that Guanabee used a “divide and conquer” approach. I also want to jump in and expand AJ’s and Mandy B.’s discussion by pointing out their use of the phrase “blinded by Barack Obama” is one that perpetuates abelism. Disability and race are both socially constructed and have social consequences and I think this piece is a great example of the two. Guanabee’s use of this phrase shows how able-bodied people are normalized while people with different abilities are considered anything but normal.

    I know AJ is incorporating gender-neutral terminology (i.e. use of the term zie) and it has reminded me of how I too can do the same and focus on examining the language I use that excludes and marginalizes people with disabilities.

    On another tip, I had a love-hate relationship with Oprah, for very personal reasons. I don’t know if my perspective is shared by others, but here it is: It is/was rare for me to see anything other than people who identified racially as Black and racially as white on her show. For this reason I did not feel I was her core audience (but my mother did and she identifies racially as white and culturally as Latina). When she started her magazine I remember my mother subscribing to it (as she still does today). This was when she did her Angel network where organizations/schools/etc received X amount of money from her org to continue with their programming. The Cesar Chavez Public Charter School in Washington, DC was awarded an Angel grant (I don’t know if this is the correct terminology for this award, but hopefully readers are following.).

    I had picked up her February 2003 Vol 4 number 2 magazine of “O” and flipped through it only to come across the article entitled: “The Eyebrow Experiment,” where members of the staff had their eyebrows plucked, waxed, drawn in etc. with before and after pictures. I opened to page 174 and saw a before and after image of one of Frida Kahlo’s self portraits. The left side was the “original” before piece and the right side was the “after” piece where they added a smile and plucked Frida’s eyebrows!!!!

    As if the image of a magazine owned by a Black woman who had just awarded a school named after a Mexican-American activist and then altering the image of a huge Latina icon that challenged the ideas of beauty, art, relationships, sexuality etc. were not enough, the introduction under the “after” image reads: “This was our theory: A beautifully shaped eyebrow can lift your whole look. Consider the before and after of the tweezer-averse Frida Kahlo. Much better, right?” not to mention the caption on the upper left hand corner on the left “before” image read: “Frida Kahlo untweezed and (opposite) plucked to perfection.” I wrote a letter expressing my sadness to the magazine.

    I know that Oprah has folks working for her at her magazine and I don’t get the impression that she’s a micro manager (or maybe she is) but this story, these images, they hurt. My father is an artist and I grew up valuing the work of artists from every genre, seeing this image enraged me and it sticks with me when I think of Oprah. I’ve since been able to use this as an example for my own work and realize that Oprah can’t do everything and isn’t trying to and I can see more perspectives of those devoted to her and those who question her. I’m sharing that there is a very very small part of me that understands some critiques towards Oprah by some Latinas. I think Gaunabee’s was not a fair critique. That’s why I thank folks for commenting as it helps me interrogate a bit more my bias and discomfort and recognizing this is where it stems from while also holding myself accountable for unfair critiques I made of Oprah years ago. I especially loved AJ’s statement “Black women, regardless of their socio-economic standing, are and will always be beholden to white women, that we cannot have a moral compass that doesn’t function outside of white women…and we should be grateful for that station in life. And be damned if we act on our moral compass.”

    This is right on and is so relevant; my experiences as a Puerto Rican woman, both in the US and on the mainland, is that a “morality” discourse is still present in certain spaces and tied to whiteness.

    And yes AJ, this did have to do with relationships, which I believe has to do with sex.

  35. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Bianca–thanks for responding, friend! I can add nothing more to it, except that there should be laws against photoshopping Frida’ s eyebrows, especially to prove how fantabulous eyebrow grooming is. Just. Ain’t. Right.

    @ Latoya–Would you mind passing along my email address to LM, since I was so asked? Thanks so much!

  36. dirkdiggler wrote:

    it’s her show, so she can do whatever the hell she wants. and more power to her. but now that she’s taken a position, why is this substantively much more different that what happens to that hasselbeck woman on the view, who is obviously more conservative than others? she takes an enormous amount of heat for that. i know, comparing oprah to her is not even fair, but you take a political position, especially when your entire public persona has been of someone who transcends petty politics, you will take heat. i don’t see why oprah should be immune from that heat.

  37. Princess wrote:

    Oprah is a very shrewd and savvy business woman and she has already stood by her decision, and will continue to determine the particulars of guests that will grace her stage.

    Oprah is a brand and for every 1 person vowing to boycott her show and magazine, many more will continue to tune in and read.

    This is yet another ploy to distract the American people from focusing on the real issues.

    In my opinion, if the replublican VP candidate is willing to do a real non-scripted interview, there are so many other venues.

    Bottom-line, Oprah said, NO and even if it means some folk must agree to disagree, they need to let it go!

  38. Roxie wrote:

    dirkdiggler: Oprah isn’t immune from taking heat.

    However, she’s taking heat from people accusing her of not being fair and of basically “owing” her success to them (as if she never worked for it all and would be nothing and no where w/o them). They are demanding she do something for them or ELSE!

    Hasselbeck gets attacked for the things she actually says and does–not for what people believe she owes to them.

  39. Michelle wrote:

    I am not sure if this was addressed yet, but I think someone asked about “who” was “organizing” the boycott. There is a group of Republican Women in Florida who are organizing the boycott. I don’t know if it will spread to all the Palin supporters (probably), but I think that the majority of Oprah supporters, at least at this point, consider themselves enlightened and open minded people. And you know what, I am just going to say it, I don’t think that Palin supporters, i.e. right wing white women, are what one would call “open-minded” and “enlightened”. Oh, that one is gonna bite me in the buttocks!

    LM, I think your reasoning is dead on! I also notice how Oprah was purposely above the fray for most of the primary season.

  40. Jaye wrote:

    @atlasien:

    thanks for the link, made my day.

    My favorite line was this:

    “Thus sayeth the Lord, to all white women in America: boycott the Oprah Winfrey Show. Go to your remote control NOW and block her show under your parental control guide.”

    Really…remote control parental guides are mentioned in the Bible? Good to know.

  41. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Princess and Roxie–you beautifully addressed dirkdiggler’s question I add nothing more.

    @Michelle–sorry that I don’t have butt guards for you, friend.:-D

  42. Lakergrrl wrote:

    Ms O is a talk show host. Who she has on her show is her decison alone. I say let Palin go on the Tyra show. Or better yet (and probably more fittingly) the Wendy Williams show.

    @Jaye
    Only in the crazy people bible. (Book of Nutso 1:1)

  43. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    > I say let Palin go on the Tyra show. Or better yet (and probably more fittingly) the Wendy Williams show.

    @Lakergrrl I would *love* to watch that interview.

  44. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Carmen and Lakergrrl–my brain and ears may bleed. Nnnnnooooo….

  45. Princess wrote:

    Racialicious, thanks for sharing this. As I browsed the Internet and read some of the other blogs, I had to come back here and comment.

    What’s also disturbing is that some folk are claiming Oprah and her staff are at odds over not having the (R) VP candidate on her show. Yet Oprah’s response is that it was never a consideration during this election.

    @The Cruel Secretary
    Thank you and I must say you’re on point concerning what is really going on. Keep doing what you do!

    @Roxie
    Exactly, the ole “We made you, you owe us mentality”.

    @Michelle
    “open-minded” and “enlightened” Palin supporters. lol That remains to be seen, especially since the nation appears to be in a fog on the real issues.

    The strategy is to evade the issues, distract, conquer and divide.

  46. Eric Daniels wrote:

    Lysonside, we don’t agree on anything most of the time but I love you for saying what that the show is owned by HARPO enterprises not NBC,CBS, NBC. If Karl Rove and the GOP don’t like what Oprah did in endorsing Obama then my advice is you conservatives do have a channel and it’s called FOX NEWS, Oprah is under no obligation to interview Palin, 50 Cent or Snoop Dogg for that matter. And they have complained about Oprah not interviewing them too.

  47. dirkdiggler wrote:

    it’s dangerous when you have for yourself snatched the moral high ground and believe that you are the only enlightened ones, the only open minded ones. yet, some have no problem labeling every Palin supporter as a right wing white woman. really? i didn’t realize that it was simply inconceivable that there may be people who fit into somewhat different demographics who support her as well. but more importantly, how exactly is this narrow stereotyping is this “open minded” and “enlightened”? because you believe a certain way, and of course you are open minded, anyone who holds a different view must then be narrow minded?

    strikes me as the same sort of zealotry and narrow mindedness that many of us attribute to hard core conservatives. where i live, there are far more people who simply cannot countenance anyone criticizing obama in any fashion. they simply won’t hear of it. that’s scary. just like it’s scary when the repubs do it.

    and of course it’s her show, she can do what she wants. but it shouldn’t prevent anyone from making judgments about her and her show, favorable or not, based on her decisions. that same line of argument has been used, let’s say, by private country clubs who don’t want poc in their midst. it’s their club, and it’s private, they can do what they want, many have argued. but that shouldn’t prevent us from judging them for that position.

    and i’m not so sure that the audience is as shrill as you put them; that they are demanding something they’re not entitled to. what they may be saying is that this is an incredibly important election. why not give equal time to both candidates, both parties? sure it’s oprah’s show. so why diminish it by not providing equitable time so we can focus, as one person has said, on the real issues?

  48. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ dirkdiggler–according to the same NY Times article linked in this post that called Palin “the hottest political star in the firmament”

    The demographics of her audience was a closer fit to the profile of the typical supporter of Hillary Clinton than of Barack Obama, and may also be closer to the typical supporter of Sarah Palin: As of last fall, her daytime audience of 8.6 million viewers were 75 percent women; more than half were older than 50; about 44 percent made less than $40,000 a year, and about 25 percent had no more than a high school diploma, according to Nielsen Media Research.

    If the NY Times found out some Palin supporters were PoCs, that would have been all over the article. Usually, when the reporter doesn’t state the race of the subjects, the implication is the subjects are more than likely white.

    As I said in my comments, dirkdiggler, I would have felt different if Guanabee was more explicit about their support for McCain and/or Palin. At least I could grasp a reason for what the post was about. But, as stated, it was an attack on Oprah for not having Palin based on the idea that “she’s sticking with her own kind”…and all of the nasty implications of that statement. And, dirkdiggler, unlike a country club that forbids a person based on their skin color (an neutral attribute) at all, Oprah is saying she wants to delay Palin’s appearance until after the election and she’s sticking with her decisions around that: for her, that decision, out of a sense of personal integrity, is more important than “equal time.” Free speech is a debateable issue: people have a right to speak…and other people have a right to not allow that speech in certain spaces, like a eponymous show. Skin color isn’t a form of speech, which is why it shouldn’t be discriminated against in public and private spaces. That’s where your using the analogy of a country club that practices racial discrimination and Oprah delaying putting Palin on her show falls flat.

    Again, my contention is why Guanabee, a pop-culture blog written by Latinas whose writers have posted at this anti-racist blog, would attack Oprah, a Black woman, with the “she’s sticking with her own” argument when they’ve been exposed to why that argument is just wrong. And they’re making this argument–without coming out and saying they’re supporting Palin and/or her running mate–for a white woman and with white women that belongs to a party that believes and acts against both Black women and Latinas. To me, the post is a manifestation of a divide-and-conquer discourse–which, from writers who’ve been exposed to the ramifications of that discourse on this blog, just really disappoints me that they’d participate in it.

  49. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Whoops! That NY Times quote should have looked like this:

    The demographics of her audience was a closer fit to the profile of the typical supporter of Hillary Clinton than of Barack Obama, and may also be closer to the typical supporter of Sarah Palin: As of last fall, her daytime audience of 8.6 million viewers were 75 percent women; more than half were older than 50; about 44 percent made less than $40,000 a year, and about 25 percent had no more than a high school diploma, according to Nielsen Media Research.

  50. jvansteppes wrote:

    @TCS I see what you mean in terms of representation, you can’t please/represent everyone. I’d just rather see a politically diverse panel of WOC on Oprah talking about Sarah Palin than Sarah Palin. She’s already jumped into the Republican orgy that is Fox News and doesn’t need any more coverage. As I speak she is probably tracking down all the O magazines at the library and burning them.

  51. Serena wrote:

    The thing that pisses me off is that no one is seeing that SHE IS NOT EVEN HAVING OBAMA ON THE SHOW. She said she wasn’t going to put ANYONE in the election on the show cause it would be unfair. Dur! If Obama was on the show, you’d have a reason to scream. All those women making those remarks about Oprah should go read the blogs floating around right now about white privilage. You don’t own Oprah. *shock and awe*

  52. Judah wrote:

    Riiiight, Oprah supports the democrat because he’s black, and not because of, you know, actual political opinions, or out of anything else in her background. She grew up in poverty, she’s not going to vote for the guy (and his gal) who say “fuck you” to anyone making less than 5 million.

    Stupid people don’t see anything but color.

  53. Serena wrote:

    Wow, I am appalled at the response of everyone about Oprah not have Palin on “her” show. Key word here, “her” show.

    I really do not think that Oprah was showing a political view when Obama was on “her” since Obama is from Chicago.

    I think that it was supporting a Chicagoian.

    I do not support Palin. And will not support Palin because she is a woman. I think that is blind.

    If it is about being a woman then why are you talking about why she did not have Clinton on “her” show.

  54. bdsista wrote:

    I really like Oprah, don’t watch the show much, but she inspired me when she was an Afro wearing reporter here in Baltimore, who refused to wear the wigs and when given the co-host seat of a local talk show, took it over and was given the slot in Chicago against Phil Donohue who passed the scepter to her upon his retirement.
    Oprah is smart and been subjected to racism and sexism like most of us, but I am glad she put her foot down. Hell Oprah could buy Alaska and then she can hire some Black folks since Palin said she doesn’t have to hire any Blacks and won’t.
    The Latina thing is real interesting, and if they stay here long enough (like us coloreds since 1600s) and don’t pass for white theywill find out what side their bread is buttered on after they have been used to further the white supremacist agenda. Palin will stick it to them like she does the moose and wolves and other animals she likes killing.