Comments

1. Monie wrote:

   “I decided that I couldn’t/didn’t want to live up to a lot of the standards that the black men I knew seemed to have for women, because I didn’t care about makeup or getting my hair done…”

   Wow what a racist, dismissive statement. You paint Black men or boys as one dimensional. It’s so interesting that you were willing to dismiss all Black men because a couple of or one Black guy had certain expectations for you and yet you continued to date a White guy who expressed his love for paleness.

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:17 am ¶

2. Mandy B. wrote:

   I think the fact that Lisa was quick to use the words “that I knew” and “seemed” makes it a comment on her specific experience, not on Black men as a whole.
   Also, the way I interpreted her anecdote about the White guy with a ‘pale’ fetish was that, seeing as he couldn’t get over that shit, there was no way she was going to stay with him, not that she ‘continued to date a White guy who expressed his love for paleness.’

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:24 am ¶

3. Abu Sinan wrote:

   Good points. It sounds like the white boyfriend was trying to get himself to overlook your skin colour.

   I am with your hubby. I like women with dark skin, hair and eyes. I hate it when people say it is a fetish. It isnt, it is a preference. I find some white women attractive, but not usually.

   It is called taste. I have no issue with white women and have no issue with my European roots, I just prefer WoC.

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:27 am ¶

4. Lizzie (greeneyedfem wrote:

   Thanks for this post, Lisa.

   To me, the “I don’t see color” line is even more ridiculous coming from a romantic partner than from a co-worker or friend. This is the person you’re supposed to know better than anyone else, and by saying something like that, you’re erasing a huge part of their life. I’m white, my partner’s brown — and being with him, knowing him, means hearing what it was like for him growing up in an almost all-white town, hearing his family called ‘exotic’ by ignorant acquaintances, and knowing that our kids will be multi-cultural. How could I build a life with this person if I ignored a huge part of his?

   Being aware of race/ethnicity, being thoughtful about its effects on people’s experiences and identities, being open to understanding that your partner might not experience the world exactly the way you do — none of those are bad things.

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:32 am ¶

5. ceecee wrote:

   @ Monie, relax! Those were the kind of black guys she came across, and yes they do exist! If you read further into her paragraph she realized that was not the case for all black guys.

   Lisa I definitely agree with your write up. I’ve always looked side eyed at people who declare they don’t see color, because that really is denial.

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:33 am ¶

6. Elise wrote:

   There was a book I read that was written by a bi-racial man. He described his parents eventual divorce by saying that his white mother never saw his father as a black man. It was why they got together – and why they divorced.

   I always took that statement to mean that “beyond race” was just not a possibility in our racist society because to say you are ‘beyond race’ or that a SO is ‘just a person’ can end up meaning ‘I am not going to acknowledge the different experiences that you and I have based on race.’ That eliminates a large part of POC experiences and ignores life as it is now.

   Anti-racist dating makes a whole lot more sense because it recognizes that racism is a part of life right now and doesn’t diminish another person’s very real experiences.

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:49 am ¶

7. Lisa wrote:

   @Monie,

   Mandy B. is right, I didn’t continue to date the “paleness” guy. And please understand, some of the things I’m talking about here happened when I was in high school, which was almost 12 years ago for me. So, yeah, if I did have dismissive reactions to things or fucked up expectations or perceptions of people or whatever, it was because that is how I was a teenager. I’d like to think that I’ve since grown out of it, but when I wrote this piece, I was trying to give a picture of what my overall interracial dating experience has been throughout the course of my life… it just so happens that it started at a time when I wasn’t mature enough to fully comprehend everything around me. I mean, at 16 or 17 or whatever, the reaction that led to giving up on dating black men (which I don’t think was a fully conscious decision or anything) had a lot to do with not wanting to get hurt again — the things that the last black guy I dated said hurt my teenage self as much as the things that the white guy I discussed later said to my 25 year old self, but I was in a different place developmentally at the time, and so I reacted differently.
   Am I saying that I made the RIGHT decision when I was 17? Of course not! What I’m trying to do is explain how ideas and perceptions changed for me over time…

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 9:56 am ¶

8. Lisa wrote:

   @Elise,

   Interracial divorce is a really interesting topic to me. Do you happen to remember the name of the book?

   My parents had a very dysfunctional marriage throughout my childhood, but my mother, who is white, waited 17 years to file for a divorce, and I sometimes wonder if this had to do with her not wanting to give her relatives the satisfaction of being able to say ‘I told you so” because her marriage to a black man didn’t work out — even if the reasons for divorce had nothing to do with race whatsoever.

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:04 am ¶

9. Darcy wrote:

   @Lisa: Nice post, and I am glad that you met a guy who knows how to show you he appreciates you.

   @Elise: Do you know the name of the book/author that you mentioned?

   Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:09 am ¶

10. dave wrote:

    @Monie: I feel like that’s exactly the stuff that LP was talking about when she said she was reluctant to continue the “interracial dating posts” …

    @Lisa: thanks for this post. I think I have a slight problem with the term “anti-racist dating” because in a way it sounds like you’re dating someone for the purposes of decreasing racism rather than a genuine affinity for them, but that’s mostly a semantic thing, I definitely appreciate the sentiment.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:10 am ¶

11. bertie wrote:

    I kind of understand where you are coming from Monie–but in the author’s defense she acknowledges that there are black men that do not exhibit the behavior she complained of.

    But it is curious that at some point she simply chose not to separate the wheat from the chaft when it came to black men (especially given the fact that her experiences were with Junior high/high school aged boys), but presumably gave white men the benefit of the doubt until they showed their ass. As a straight black male, I’ve never dated a white man, but I can’t believe that as a whole, white guys are any less concerned about the appearance of their mates than black men or vice versa.

    The inner “angry black man” wants to see this as the author not wanting to be limited to blackness, and choosing a black mate definitely places her in the “black box.” In the angry black man’s mind, being classified as “mixed” and in an interracial relationship is a quite different status than being simply a “black” woman married to black man. In the latter, you are associated with, connected to and must answer for all the other black folks and their problems. (Exhibit “A” Barak Obama and his mandatory rejection and denouncement of every non-pc thing ever said by another black person). In the former, not so much.

    But I recognized that my inner angry black man is usually a judgmental asshole who doesn’t know what motivates anyone to do anything, and that includes the author’s dating choices–so I’m trying to mellow him out, which is a work in progress.

    Its interesting how different sentiments get interpreted. In one post, a woman felt uncomfortable with her white mates preference for non-white women because it made her feel reduced to an interchangeable entity. Here, the preference for black women gives the author comfort. I guess it just depends on how the mate expresses their preference.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:36 am ¶

12. Michele wrote:

    Lisa, My reaction to the I quit dating black guys in the 11th grade because of poor treatment, but I continued to date white guys afer poor treatment was the same as Monies. Were all the white guys you dated after 11th grade wonderful accept for paleness guy? I just see this as another example of whites being individuals and people of color are not.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:42 am ¶

13. Chris wrote:

    @Lisa:

    Great post. On the topic of interracial divorce, my White father and Asian mother divorced shortly after I left for the military. I can see why they stayed together so long, to ensure that my sisters and I could grow up in a household with both a mother and a father, but I knew from a young age the marriage wasn’t working out.

    When I was very young, I didn’t see much arguing going on between my parents, and everything seemed to be going okay. It was only once we had moved back to the States into the DC area that I saw their relationship turn for the worse.

    At first, I thought this was because I was young and couldn’t see the signs, but my oldest sister and I were talking about it a year or so after my parents’ divorce and brought up an interesting point: once my mom started thinking more as an individual, going out and doing what she liked as opposed to staying home the majority of the time, the relationship turned sour.

    I believe my father’s a good person, but I can’t help shake that nagging feeling that he’d married my mother based on wanting the stereotypical subservient Asian woman, and later divorced her because she had stepped out of line of those preconceived stereotypical behaviors.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:02 am ¶

14. Myles wrote:

    “I decided that I couldn’t/didn’t want to live up to a lot of the standards that the black men I knew seemed to have for women, because I didn’t care about makeup or getting my hair done…”

    I know what you mean. I’m mixed, too, and growing up the black girls that I almost dated tended to tell me how they wanted me to “improve myself for them.”

    They shut up pretty quick when you point out someone that already has all of the qualities they say they want.

    But that largely made me feel like i was a silver medal. Like they wanted to be with someone they felt “better embodied the ideals of the black community” but I was “light” so they got the value boost of being with a light guy.

    Ugh.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:13 am ¶

15. Lisa wrote:

    @bertie,

    Thanks for your comment, and for your understanding. I should have added somewhere in the original post that I didn’t exclusively date white men after high school — I was in a long-term relationship with a guy who was half Thai/half white for a while as well (but I didn’t want to get into it because that was another relationship with a whole host of quirks and problems, some of which were related to race and some that weren’t, of course). So it’s not like I turned all “white men or nothing!” Or even, after growing up and getting over my initial hurt teenage feelings, that I wouldn’t have been open to dating black men if the right one had come along (and, if you knew me in real life, you’d know that I’m so strange and shy and generally weird that it’s a wonder that any “right” man existed for me at all, black, white or green).

    What you’re saying about not being “limited” to blackness is interesting. I’m not sure that I would describe myself that way, necessarily, but it reminds me of a conversation that I had with a friend of mine who is also biracial and is married to a black man — she asked me if I considered my marriage to a white man as interracial, and I said yes, of course.

    However, my friend is married to a black man, and she said that, despite being half white herself, she didn’t consider her relationship interracial at all because the world at large perceives her as black anyway (one drop rule and all that). And her way of seeing things really did appeal to me, because… it sounded so nice and tidy, you know, to be able to say “we’re black and our kids will be black” and to have that kind of strong, stable identity as a couple.

    Anyway, though, as far as being less connected to the issues associated with blackness because of being mixed and because of who I am married to… that hasn’t been my experience in real life. When I’m out in the world going about my business, the majority of people with positions of power in this society don’t look at me and assume that I’m mixed, and they can’t look at me and know who I’m married to, so I don’t think that my choice of a spouse has somehow given me a “get out of bullshit free” card or a passport to an easier life…

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:21 am ¶

16. Stephanie wrote:

    @bertie: I think you hit the complexity (or one of the many complexities) of this issue right on the head:
    “Its interesting how different sentiments get interpreted. In one post, a woman felt uncomfortable with her white mates preference for non-white women because it made her feel reduced to an interchangeable entity. Here, the preference for black women gives the author comfort. I guess it just depends on how the mate expresses their preference.”
    That’s what I’m working through after reading this. I completely agree that it’s unhealthy for your (white) partner to look beyond your race, but I don’t think it’s any better if they had a preference or taste for people/women of a certain race. As an Asian American woman, I am pretty guarded when I meet white guys. And when white guys express either sentiment (that they are beyond seeing my Asianness or that they prefer Asian women), I am disgusted either way.

    I think it’s interesting to think about the different ways these situations play out when we discuss different races. When it comes to discussing a preference for Asian women, more people might agree that that’s not acceptable. But when it comes to discussion of Black women and a “taste” for “women with dark skin, hair, and eyes”, is there less agreement as to whether it’s acceptable or not? And what happens when he discuss Latinas and other groups?

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:25 am ¶

17. Lisa wrote:

    @Michele

    That’s an interesting point, and I’m trying hard to consider it without getting defensive as a reflex. I didn’t exclusively date white men after high school — the man I was in the longest-term relationship with was mixed Thai/white. So it really wasn’t a binary, all or nothing thing where I decided that white men were the way to true salvation or something, although I can see how it sounded like that with the way I worded things in the original post.

    I also think that it’s not necessarily an issue of viewing minorities as a monolithic block while viewing whites as individuals — it’s more an issue of the fact that there are simply soooo many more white men in my community than black men (I think that we actually might have more Asians than black people here, as well). So, even if percentage-wise there were just as many white men as black men who want their women to fit a standard of beauty that I didn’t buy into, that still creates a situation where the black ones who don’t want a woman to fit that particular standard are going to be harder to find, or already taken. If I had been faced with a huge pool of black men to chose from, I’m sure that I would have dipped into it again — but this wasn’t the case in my own, particular situation.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:50 am ¶

18. Allie wrote:

    Being a transracial adoptee is confusing. I wish someone would write about being the only PoC within one’s own family. I read Dreams from My Father by Barack Obama and noticed that he did marry a black woman in the end. Does it matter? is the question I keep asking myself. I don’t have my own family to fall back on in terms of cultural/racial understanding, and if I marry outside my race then I am securing my place as the only PoC in my family (with the exception of children, but they certainly can’t teach me about my culture, I will have to teach them, and what would I teach them?)

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:51 am ¶

19. TierList E wrote:

    @Stephanie

    Just speculating, but maybe a reason that ‘reverse preference’ (any agianst the norm preferences) are harder to place because they’re kinda not supposed to be there, and it confuses people, breaking the jerk reaction.

    Like, a man stating that a he can only date women who have huge boobs can cause a lot of immediate responses, against and defense, because he’s delving into the common stereotypes of what womanhood should be. But when a man expresses interest in small chested women before people start reacting there’s probably a moment of confusion. Then there’s the wondering if he’s trying to counteract negative influences, and the possible ego boost of those frequency ignored in the desired scale that make such responses not as focused or directed.

    . . .Or I’m making up a bunch of crap. Haha, you decide.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:59 am ¶

20. C-Marsh wrote:

    @ Allie

    The point you bring up is so interesting. Recently, my advisor (who is white) told me she was thinking about adopting transracially. She is brilliant woman and her husband is equally as bright. She’s a psychologist and studies race relations, inequality, discrimination, etc. and her husband is a cultural anthropologist. They understand race, but still have some concerns about adopting transracially because they are worried whether or not it’s beneficial for the child. I would think that as long as the child was exposed to different cultures that the feeling of alienation from their culture would fade, but I’m speaking only from speculation. She’s done her research, but there are no truly conclusive studies for or against transracial adoptions. I hope you don’t mind me asking, but did you have the opportunity to experience other cultures? Also, do you think that exposure to other cultures is a start to prevent or manage the feelings of cultural isolation?

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:09 pm ¶

21. Erin wrote:

    @Allie – there are several blogs out there about by transracial adoptees (harlow’s monkey springs to mind – http://harlowmonkey.typepad.com/). if you haven’t already, do a google search.

    Also, the book “The Adoption Reader: Birth Mothers, Adoptive Mothers, and Adopted Daughters Tell Their Stories” features several essays around transracial/transnational adoption. I’m sure there are other books somewhere…

    as a fellow adoptee, i hope this is useful.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶

22. Estheroette wrote:

    “I can’t remember how many times I heard things like “you know, I don’t even think of you as [black, mixed, whatever]. I just think of you as a person.” And I first, my young, naive self thought that sentiment was really sweet, because I didn’t realize the degree to which it was denying a huge facet of what made me ME.”

    It took me a long time to come to that same conclusion myself. I look back on my time in middle school, high school, and even some time in college to realize in no way was this person being progressive. Although I did not get this from my romantic relationships (so far), I definitely got it from friends.

    There was a time when a friend of mine asked why my makeup was brown and “why are you listening to that music” when I was like ‘Hold up!’ lol

    Now I find it strange that people who supposedly do not see color expect me to behave just like them.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:15 pm ¶

23. WestIndianArchie wrote:

    1 word – confused.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:18 pm ¶

24. atlasien wrote:

    @Allie, I’m a PoC transracial adoptive parent… I read several transracial adoptee blogs. You might want to check out http://harlowmonkey.typepad.com which has a ton of links to TRA resources and narratives.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:19 pm ¶

25. atlasien wrote:

    Oops, Erin already posted that link.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶

26. Monie wrote:

    Lisa,

    Thanks for your reply.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶

27. Lisa wrote:

    @WestIndianArchie

    lol, I’d like to meet someone who isn’t at all confused about life and how to live it. I guess I might be “confused” but I’m also pretty happy, overall. So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Is there some predetermined life course that I should be following that would save me from my current “tragic mullata” state? Do tell.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:28 pm ¶

28. SolShine7 wrote:

    Great post! And really interesting comments. I get what the author is saying. I’m biracial and it’s annoying when people say they “don’t see race.” Unless they are literally blind then that statement is absurd to me.

    People want to be appreciated for their whole package: looks, personality and their ideas. People don’t want to be with someone who choses them on some superficial basis. The title could be more aptly stated as “Beyond Race” vs. “True Appreciation”

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:34 pm ¶

29. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    that photo makes me so horny.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:36 pm ¶

30. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    ok, my BF is white (Irish) and I am South Asian/Muslim.

    he doesn’t care about skin colour. He only cares whether or not a female is a punk (ie: ME!!!) and he only dates punk females (yes, he’s a punk too). he said that when he first laid eyes on me and my red mohawk, he immediately fell in love with me.

    see, my BF fell in love with my RED MOHAWK, not my brown skin

    

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 12:42 pm ¶

31. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @DFP,

    That brings up a whole other issue, the issue of religion as well as race. Race is complicated enough, throw in religion and things get really tough.

    I get a taste of this when people assume that my wife is married to a Christian because I am white. Never mind the fact I converted to Islam long before we married, it is a stereotype on their part that a white is going to be Christian, or that most whites wouldnt find Islam interesting enough to convert to it. There are some self esteeem issues there for the immigrant Muslim community as well.

    I was a punk starting back in the early 1980s. Yeah, I saw the Misfits in concert, as well as the original Christian Death, Black Flag, GBH and The Exploited amoungst others.

    Never had a mohawk however, I stuck with a devil lock at first then shaved it down to a number one crop. “Skinheads arent allowed in Mohawk Town”, if you know that one!

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶

32. LM wrote:

    @ Bertie #11: Well-put.

    About the last paragraph from Stephanie (#16): “I think it’s interesting to think about the different ways these situations play out when we discuss different races. When it comes to discussing a preference for Asian women, more people might agree that that’s not acceptable. But when it comes to discussion of Black women and a ‘taste’ for ‘women with dark skin, hair, and eyes’, is there less agreement as to whether it’s acceptable or not? And what happens when we discuss Latinas and other groups?”

    Don’t know if you’re doing a survey (and I have no problem if you are) of attitudes in the U.S., or in different parts of the U.S., or the world, etc. — but regardless, are you interested as a guide to what to perpetuate or what to fight?

    Just to clarify — I generally don’t care on an individual basis what someone is attracted to, or even why — but when those factors are so strongly influenced by societal/group/racial dynamics I see no need to publicly endorse all that, ’cause it’s generally shallow/stupid/racist. That goes for the so-called “positive” stereotypes, too.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:07 pm ¶

33. Crystal wrote:

    @Bertie, as a biracial woman, I was sort of thunderstruck by the would-be observations of your “inner ‘angry black man.’” But I’ve got love for you, brother, so let’s walk through this. It can be complicated.

    First of all, to the extent that there exists a “black box,” it’s a bit of a fiction that biracial people get to choose what box they go in. That is, lots of biracial people, by virtue of their physical appearance and familial/social constructs, are already squarely in the “black box”. The same holds true for a lot of folks who identify as “simply black,” as you put it, but who have various other components in their ethnic background.

    At the same time, it’s a bit of fiction (and a little sexist?) to think that a woman’s biracial identity is somehow automatically negated by marriage. Like her race was some kind of unanswered question, until it was decisively defined by her husband’s race? A woman has an identity before she gets married, and, as @Lisa pointed out, a majority of the life of a married woman is lived outside the presence of her man. And black folks and black biracial folks give birth to children with skin tones that fall across a color spectrum anyhow, so that doesn’t define anybody.

    You are correct when you write that “being classified as ‘mixed’ and in an interracial relationship is a quite different status than being simply a ‘black’ woman married to black man.” Yeah, because race plays into relationships, like it or not, and those dynamics vary based on the racial makeup of who’s involved.

    But to think that only biracial black people married to “simply black” people “are associated with, connected to and must answer for all the other black folks and their problems” is laughable. (And I had a good laugh, thanks.) Not to state the obvious or anything, but most biracial people have at least one closely related black family member. That’s a pretty strong association / connection. And as any angry black man would know, white people don’t always exercise a lot of nuance when it comes to viewing the physical differences of blacks in their midst. Returning to my very first point, lots of us biracial folks look plain old “simply” black to whites. I know that an angry black man must be familiar with the “one drop rule,” right? They invented that, and it has informed their perceptions. So trust me, there are plenty of biracial people, even those married to non-blacks, who get heat for “all the other black folks”. And wouldn’t have it any other way. We get some benefits, too, you know.

    I share that perspective in the hope that it might help you with your mellowing, your work in progress. Thanks for being honest. Back atcha.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:12 pm ¶

34. Sharon wrote:

    Lisa,

    You wrote a 1100 word essay that has been read, by perhaps hundreds, and has received at least 28 comments. I have an e-zine and know that that is not an easy thing to do.

    You have successfully gotten a bunch of people to talk about the taboo — America’s elephant in the room — race relations. That accomplishment, in and of itself, is no small task.

    Thank you for being so honest. And thanks for writing something engaging enough to keep us all reading and, in a few cases, responding.

    I am a 51 yr old black woman. I was married to a black man for 17 yrs. After we divorced and I was back on the dating scene, things changed. There was this new fangled thing known as the internet.

    I joined a couple of on-line dating services and to my surprise was almost exclusively approached by white men. At first, I suspected that the sheer number of contacts was a signal that there are a lot of men out there who have fantasies of being with a black woman.

    But that alone did not really explain it. After going out with several, I found that for the most part, these men were using the anonymity and safety of the internet to approach women that society had taught them to avoid but that they were attracted to.

    No doubt, there are lots of fetish guys out there. But what I found is that after a date or two, men are just men regardless of race.

    I did marry a man I met on the internet. We have been together for over six years. He is white and I am black. When I think of him, I think of him as “husband”, not white man but I am not unaware of his whiteness. We definately have cultural differences.

    I’m probably rambling here. But I want to emphasize that even when you are in a very close relationship with someone of a different race, the differences don’t go away but can enhance and enrich the relationship.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:15 pm ¶

35. Cynthia wrote:

    Abu Sinan: I agree that religion is much, much more complicated than race. If a Chinese Catholic and an German Catholic get married, all you have to worry about is how much German culture and how much Chinese culture need to be in the reception and perhaps a translator at the church (though I’ve never seen this happen. My cousin and her husband are Chinese, with relatives who barely understand English, yet the priest who married them was English speaking). Even a Roman Catholic marrying a non-RC Christian is relatively easy. However, if a Chinese Catholic marries a German Jew, you have to worry about the ceremony, about what each religion may or may not find offensive. And later, when you raise kids, there’s the decision of whether to have a baptism or a bris/naming ceremony. And what about naming traditions? Many Jews do not believe in naming a baby after close relative who is still living. However, in Chinese culture (regardless of religion), generational names are often used (e.g. Jing Mei and Jing Sun are sister and brother). And with, say, Chinese (regardless of faith)/European Jewish couples, if they do decide to raise their kids Jewish, will the kids be accepted at Hebrew school? It’s perfectly normal to see Eurasian Catholics, but Eurasian Jews are still kind of rare in this part of the world.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:16 pm ¶

36. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @Cynthia,

    Yeah, religion throws a whole different aspect into it. I am a white American convert to Islam married to a Saudi Arabian woman who has two children from a previous marriage.

    So we get the race issues, the ethnicity issues, religion issues as well as the blended family issues. We also have children with Autism, one hers and one of ours together. Tough going but it is worth it.

    We are both Muslims, but being a convert to the faith I do have a somewhat different understanding of things, so that has been an issue as well. I guess it would be like a Catholic marrying a traditional/Latin Rite Catholic. They are both Catholic……..but……..

    If it is done right it is a good lesson on tolerance and learning to how either adapt to someone else’s ideas and ways, or to accept then without changing them.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:41 pm ¶

37. Myles wrote:

    @WestIndianArchie

    The easiest way to stop being confused is to ask a question

    Unless you were saying that Lisa is confused. I doubt that she is.

    Awesome blog Lisa. And you are pretty brave for letting them post it on racialicious.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:44 pm ¶

38. Tim wrote:

    I love this distinction (beyond race vs. anti-racist), as it’s applicable so far beyond dating, marriage, reproduction, etc. “Anti-racist parent” is a great predecessor.

    But I think the latter term, “anti-racist,” needs more elaboration in this context. Clearly you can have “racist” interracial relationships just as you can have ones that try to go “beyond race.” So what would be sufficient conditions that would make a relationship (whether interracial or otherwise) anti-racist?

    The first one that comes to mind a shared awareness/acknowledgment of the social reality of race; of the different positions each party occupies with respect to race, gender, ethnicity, religion, etc.; of the sexual differentials that go along with racism; of the racial pitfalls and misunderstandings common to those relationships; a commitment to fight against actually existing racism; and (I am sure) others.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:12 pm ¶

39. Lisa wrote:

    Everyone:

    Thank you all for taking the time to read this and to respond. I’ve never contributed to a blog with a large readership before, and the range of reactions that this piece has gotten have been fascinating. I’m getting ready to move tomorrow (ugh) and then I’m going out of town for a while, but I’ll try and find time to check back in on this thread and see if it goes anywhere else. Even though this is a really hard topic to write about, the kind of discourse that it produces makes it worthwhile, as has been seen on past posts here about interracial dating/marriage. Thanks.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:19 pm ¶

40. Lisa wrote:

    @Tim

    Thank you, those are the exact things I had in mind with the term “anti-racist”!

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:21 pm ¶

41. Eric Daniels wrote:

    Can’t say I am surprised about these attitudes about IR dating and the like Lisa, I hear this from Asian, Hispanic, White, Black/Mixed women like yourself about sterotypes of Black Men’s expectations or sexist behavior. It’s always if a few Black Men exhibit behavior that is anti social in the modern world than it’s a wise judgment because if one black man is sexist, violent, insenstiveor judgmental then they are all bad partners, not a far jump from workers , students, and why should we give him a chance to succeed in this country? see where I am getting everyone has a chane to be human except Black Men

    This breeds a racism of low expectations and outright hostility and a devaluing of human life that creates ” the angry black male” that gets bandied about in the press and further creates a cycle of defiance amongst Black Men who feel they are under siege by everything in society. I have had gay friends of mine tell me the sterotype exists that lisa expounds on about Black Men

    “I made my way through college, I decided that I couldn’t/didn’t want to live up to a lot of the standards that the black men I knew seemed to have for women, because I didn’t care about makeup or getting my hair done ”

    I don’t think this cycle will change anytime soon and I am happy that people have choices about romantic options, I hope people know that these sterotypes have consquences in the real world for job, civil rights and yes romantic options for black men in this country. I would be scared if I had a job interview with the attitudes of Black Men some of you posters have, because since I can’t be trusted to be a human being with complexities I would tell young black men that developing your own buisness is a better option whether it is a working class dude or professional so you can determine your own destiny deal with people who loathe Black Men from a postion of strength. I think that is a rational postion to assume.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:26 pm ¶

42. Elise wrote:

    @ Lisa and Darcy – I read it ages ago but I’ll do my best to find the author or the title for you guys!

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:30 pm ¶

43. PaulPortland wrote:

    Eric Daniel wrote:

    “It’s always if a few Black Men exhibit behavior that is anti social in the modern world than it’s a wise judgment because if one black man is sexist, violent, insenstiveor judgmental then they are all bad partners, not a far jump from workers , students, and why should we give him a chance to succeed in this country? see where I am getting everyone has a chane to be human except Black Men”

    I feel you, Eric. But Asian men get the same thing too. No matter how long an Asian man’s been in America, no matter how “Americanized” he may be, some people will always consider him an embodiment of the old school Asian patriarchy. One bad experience with an Asian-American man, and the natural conclusion is that all Asian-American men are mama’s boys, sexist pigs, cold, distant, and violently controlling.

    I think the only group of men who ARE treated as individuals in this country are white men. (Just as the only group of women who are treated as individuals in this country are white women.) Sure, part of this can be blamed on the white supremacist superstructure, on the media, on the demographic dominance of white people (for now)…but part of it is our own doing, don’t you think? Again, if we as PoC continue to treat each other (inter and intraracially) as distant satellites revolving around the white hub, then our center of gravity will always be in the power of someone who doesn’t usually have our best interests at heart. (Damn, that was a terrible analogy, but you know what I’m saying.)

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:49 pm ¶

44. GeeLennox wrote:

    @Stephanie

    I’m a black woman and I agree with you. It’s not a compliment when someone ignores my race or prefers it. Both sentiments are disturbing to me.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 2:49 pm ¶

45. Prometheus wrote:

    @Mandie- It wasn’t the man who could not get over the admiration of ‘pale’ skin, it was the author who could not move past her insecurity about that. Seemingly if he was with her, her must have liked her for (or despite) the color of her skin. I’m not to judge which is ‘better.’

    The color white (and light or lightness) has connoted power and superiority for millenia, a long time before the ancestors of African Americans entered the U.S. Examine it as a motif in many religious followings, such as Christianity, Wicca, the Nation of Islam…etc. Thus, this issue that somehow ‘paleness’ and ‘whiteness’ is somehow a modern or contemporary issue is a complete fallacy. EVERYONE, maybe with the exception of very few religious followings, view White as better, even Black folks. It’s been buried deep into our consciousness as people and passed down over many generations.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:00 pm ¶

46. Stephanie wrote:

    @LM:
    “Don’t know if you’re doing a survey (and I have no problem if you are) of attitudes in the U.S., or in different parts of the U.S., or the world, etc. — but regardless, are you interested as a guide to what to perpetuate or what to fight?”
    I guess I’m constantly conducting one big subconscious sociological survey out of personal interest. I’m not so much interested in figuring out what to perpetuate or what to fight as I’m interested in just seeing how the issue of interracial dating plays out in regards to different groups, among those within as well as those outside a group.

    I was responding to my gut reaction to the article. When Lisa writes: “He doesn’t look past my skin but right at it, and says that it’s lovely!” If I were to write, as an Asian American woman, “He doesn’t look past my eyes but right at them, and says that they’re lovely!” I feel like I would receive a different reaction from people than Lisa did.

    Obviously, both Asian and Black women are exotified. But Asian women are analogous to Black men in that they are given so-called positive stereotypes of being sexually favorable (with the two ends of the spectrum being small and submissive with a prepubescent body or large, hung, and aggressive). So I’m essentially trying to connect my experience with that of other WoC/PoC in order to see the bigger picture of how race functions in our society, especially around this issue. When we relate these different experiences to each other, I feel like it allows us to see how women/people are pitted against each other (e.g., Black women versus white women, white women versus Asian women, etc.).

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:03 pm ¶

47. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @PaulPortland,

    I find it odd that you think that white people are the only people treated as individuals in this country.

    Reading this blog and the stereotypes that go out sometimes about whites should show that isnt the case.

    The fact is that some people will always view “the other” as a stereotype, and it doesnt matter what race that person is.

    It is sad to say but it is much easier to lump everyone into groups, even whites, than deal with the true diversity that is really out there.

    Treating people as nothing more than a stereotyped image is common place for everyone no matter their racial affiliation.

    Why do you think there is always so much talk about “white women” on these threads about interracial relationships? It is exactly because they are NOT individualised, but seen through a prism where all white women are either “submissive” or that they are looking for a stereotyped AA male.

    It is how we view the other that counts here, not really about who that “other” is.

    The level at which all groups here in the USA treat the “other” is still far away from where it should be, whites included.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:06 pm ¶

48. Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:

    @bertie: I think who puts more pressure on women about appearance is a huge YMMV thing, and probably depends on how you’re situated. In my case (white woman), all the guys I can think of who put pressure on me that I didn’t want about my appearance were white, and it was either, a) making so much of my thinness that I worried how they’d react if I ever gained weight, or, b) wanting me to dress more sexy. And no man of any race much cared about the fact that I don’t wear make up or fuss with my hair. But I don’t read much into that – there were so many more white men approaching me than men of other races that it only stands to reason that most of the men whose approaches bothered me would also be white. And it only stands to reason that men who really like thinness will be going for the woman who’s actually really skinny (as I was when young).

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:15 pm ¶

49. Ayo wrote:

    @C-Marsh:

    I think being a transracial adoptee is its own culture, different from the adoptive parents’ culture and different from the culture of origin.

    @ the others:

    Thanks, I read Harlow’s Monkey regularly but when it comes down to it, every person’s romantic life ends up differently.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:24 pm ¶

50. bertie wrote:

    @Lisa–great post if I didn’t state that earlier. I definitely get that your dating history is a lot more complex than what can be explained in a 3 paragraph blog entry and I say kudos for being brave enough share with us a brief sketch of your dating past.

    @ Lisa and Crystal: I sincerely hope neither of you feel I was challenging your connection to any community b/c you’re biracial or your choice of mates–that was not my intent and if my post came off that way, I apologize. (honestly I don’t how you would quantify racial connectivity anyway…is there a formula?)

    When I mentioned a “black box” I was referring to how perceptions of black folks are very limited and often negative. I was trying to note how others may sometines view you differently based on your choice of friends, mates, etc. and how this can “box” you in or take you out of being perceived as just “black” with all the negative connotations that that carries.

    For instance, just as Lisa stated that early on she didn’t want to act in manner that would be deemed “too black” by her non-black boyfriends, alot of folks under the same mindset may assume, however misguided, that b/c Lisa is with a WM, that she behaves in race neutral manner (or more to the point-doesn’t exhibit the negative stereotypical behavior associated with blacks). Folks might assume that she is deemed “acceptable” to her non-black mate because she different. In other words, to some, she is in the “not like those other blacks” category (nevermind that most black folks do not behave like the mythic stereotypical black person). The assumption that she isn’t like those “others” is based solely on the perceived “co-signing” by her non-black partner and has nothing to do with who she really is or isn’t.

    Unfortunately, I think a lot of folks think this way. Lisa may be perceived differently by others if she were married to a black man and just viewed as part of a “black” couple.

    This is the point I was trying to make about the difference in percieved status between being biracial and marrying someone white and someone of the other non-white race to which you identify. I think many folks hold the mindset that, biracial + white = IR relationship; biracial + non-white = whatever that non-white identity may be. As Lisa stated, her friend holds this view. Again, Obama is an example of this dynamic too. His marriage is not viewed as IR (and I grant that his appearance plays a part); but best believe if Michelle were white it would be viewed as an IR marriage. Halle Berry is currently viewed to be in an IR relationship with a white partner; but I never heard her marriage to Eric Benet termed an IR marriage. Being in a IR relationship and co-signed by a white partner–especially if that partner is a white male– may affect how people perceive you, and thus could affect your status. That was my only point.

    Note that the “black box” statements were the immediate reactions/thoughts/opinions of my inner angry black man to the perceived slight to black men in the original post and aren’t based on facts, studies, empiracal data etc….its all opinion and conjecture.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:51 pm ¶

51. PaulPortland wrote:

    @Abu Sinan:

    Well, sure, on websites like Racialicious, or other places on the internets that provide a safe space for PoC to come together and vent and get things off their chests, occasionally people will make disparaging comments/ sweeping generalizations about whites. I’m most definitely guilty of that. But I think we need to see these generalizations for what they are – off-the-cuff, let your hair down sentiments of frustration, disillusionment, anger at how racism has warped our daily lives and interactions in this country.

    As for your contention that white people are just as much the victims of being lumped into a giant group in this country as PoC – I’d have to respectfully disagree. For example, when Seung-hui Cho committed his horrific act of murder at Virginia Tech, the fact that the Asian-American community felt it necessary to apologize to white America in order to forestall any attempt by irresponsible newscasters or commentators from attributing Cho’s insanity to his racial identity is certainly anectdotal proof that minorities in this country are seen, by some, as monolithic entities. Or as another example – when Republicans use a code word like “welfare cheats,” they know that their target audience is automatically going to link that to Black people (despite the fact that numerically, more white people are on some form of government assistance than Black people).

    But do white Americans feel the need to apologize for the Columbine kids? Or for Tim McVeigh? Or (on a less serious note) the inanities of Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan? I don’t think so, and neither should they. Those people were individuals who did individual acts of violence or stupidity. But in America, when a PoC does something violent or stupid, it gets woven into the stereotypes and unspoken power narratives of this country and ends up condemning whole groups of innocent individuals.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 3:54 pm ¶

52. cm wrote:

    @Allie
    
Hi! Fellow transracial adoptee here. You’re right about the TRA thing bringing in a whole other set of questions to the interracial relationship discussion. I think there are some parallels between the biracial experience and the TRA experience, but I agree it would be interesting to explore the TRA thing more in depth regarding IR.

    @ Crystal

    “At the same time, it’s a bit of fiction (and a little sexist?) to think that a woman’s biracial identity is somehow automatically negated by marriage. Like her race was some kind of unanswered question, until it was decisively defined by her husband’s race?”
    …
    “Not to state the obvious or anything, but most biracial people have at least one closely related black family member. That’s a pretty strong association / connection.”

    But what about people of color (biracial or otherwise) who have been completely cut off from both their relatives and communities of color? As a transracial adoptee (who is also black/biracial) raised by a white family in all white communities, your above statement about associations/connections doesn’t apply.

    To be quite honest, marrying an African-American man (and thus marrying into his family) would make things a hell of a lot easier for me on a number of levels. Because although I am put squarely into the “black box” by society due to my appearance, I’ve never had the privilege of being surrounded by other folks who are as well. Thus I have had to learn to deal with matters of race, racism, culture and identity all by myself. And that sucks.

    So, would it be wrong of me to take this shortcut (marrying into an African-American family) to a more integrated identity?

    I’m very interested in what other TRA’s have to say about this issue.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 4:18 pm ¶

53. TierList E wrote:

    @Promethius

    Wicca is a very recent religion.

    And I’ve heard there was pre-contact African cultures that connected pale skin with sickness, death, and dark magicks. As well as a Pacific Islander pre-culture that for the life of my I can’t remember from class. Every time I hear talk of such things the documented sources are kinda limited imo.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 4:19 pm ¶

54. Niki wrote:

    @ Eric D.:I think people are still misinterpreting the line which you quote. She said the black guys “that I knew”–she wasn’t generalizing against all black males, just sharing her personal experience at age 17 with the small group of black guys in her life at the time.

    I understand you and feel your pain on what you wrote, but don’t misquote people.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 4:29 pm ¶

55. Cynthia wrote:

    PaulfromPortland:

    I can’t believe you find this site “safe” for non-whites. It’s SOMEWHAT safe, but not 100%, as with most ethnic sites. If you have a slightly different perspective, you are either ignored/not addressed or blatantly blasted for your POV. I’m sure you’ve faced this before, as I have.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 4:39 pm ¶

56. Eric Daniels wrote:

    PaulPortland you hit the nail “right on the head” with your above comment, Privledge means you never have to apologize for your group’s actions because you are an indivdual not part of a minority group. If Paris Hilton the Girls of “Rock Of Love” or Hugh Grant or Mickey Rourke picks up a hooker or beats up women he is an a-hole plain and simple and does not represent 110 million whites, but if an Asian Male goes on a shooting spree the whole community feels like they are under seige and have to criticize the ‘bad actors’ in their ethnic or the majority group will use every trick of racial guilt to make sure “you feel dirty and sinful” because your group has defects!!!

    I tend to think it’s because of the orginal WASP ‘S Calvinistic and Purtian concepts of sin that is woven within our social and govermental framework. But a bigger question should be asked here, if POC can’t be treated as indivduals why do white Americans mainly conservatives and some POC always use MLK ‘S “I have a dream speech” to stifle any debate on White American Privledge when they do not believe in King’s premise …..

    “I will not judge anyone by the color of their skin but content of their charcter”

    And then attack that ethnic group’s morals, music, religion, value system and anything else to end debate and always with this

    “You people need to listen to Cosby,MLK, Condi Rice etc because you people are easily misled by Liberals, Black Leaders and your own racial jealousy of us whites ”

    That is minority guilt tripping in the worst sort of way and denying POC their own humanity and so I do not believe White Americans (or anybody else)believes in treating Blacks or any other POC as individuals because it’s the ultimate weapon of guilt and any POC who criticizes the in group behavior of it’s bad actors will get the highest amount of admiration for being ‘brave on race”, an example could be Barack Obama’s Father’s Day speech at a Black Church, it gave him his lead he has held since June and help him overcome his Rev. Wright problem.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 4:44 pm ¶

57. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Cynthia –

    It is safe, inasmuch as we challenge mainstream opinions. It is not safe for people who want to make excuses for racism, as some of your remarks suggest. (BTW, I saw your comment re: colorism on Jezebel.) I understand this is not always your intention (which is why I reinstated your comment privileges) but the fact remains that this site is for challenging certain ideas about race and society, not making excuses for the status quo. If that’s not the way things go down in your CBC circle in Toronto, cool. But most of us are here because we want to see a change in conversation.

    It is also not safe, as we are pulling a variety of people from different backgrounds, who tend to step on each others toes. “Ethnic” sites tend to cater to one group at a time, preferring to just deal with in-group divisions as opposed to everything else (and I can’t say I blame them. There is more than enough to discuss across a million blogs dedicated specifically to each facet of each group.)

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 4:47 pm ¶

58. Big Man wrote:

    I guess I had the same reaction Monie had when I first read the piece. I was hurt that black dudes got cut from the dating list because of an undesirable trait, but white cats were still acceptable even though they all had the annoying habit of trying to “ignore” the writer’s race.

    But, I decided that I appreciated the author being honest and I felt like I shouldn’t take the decisions of some random person on the internet so personally. However, my first reaction was to be hurt and angry.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 5:27 pm ¶

59. lxy wrote:

    One key aspect of White hegemony in general is that white privilege and power are *normalized* and thus rendered invisible.

    This is critical to how White power and hierarchy operate.

    In terms of dating, for example, White standards of beauty, desirability, and attractiveness have become universalized as supposedly objective standards.

    For many people of color, this is a rigged game, as you are forever trying to adhere to certain (White) “mating criteria” that you can never fully live up to.

    Sadly, there is in general an implicit political belief that what’s good for White people is universally good and applicable for everyone else.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 5:33 pm ¶

60. browne wrote:

    I had a boyfriend who called me clear. He said he didn’t notice what I was since I was so universal (in attitude.) He wasn’t my boyfriend for long. I can’t stand the “i can’t see color” thing. That to me is like saying I don’t notice your one leg missing or that you have no teeth. My race isn’t defective and for people to bring it up, like it is a defect that you pretend is not there in order to see the real person is complete bs.

    My boyfriend now is white, but he’s normal. He’s from the south. He’s not an overeducated a** who thinks he knows everything. We’ve had some heated debates on race BUT he’s not afraid of discourse. He’s not afraid to offend. He’s not afraid to be real with me.

    This is the best relationship I’ve been in. He’s better at spotting racism than me.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 5:42 pm ¶

61. C-Marsh wrote:

    @ Eric Daniels

    “…if POC can’t be treated as indivduals why do white Americans mainly conservatives and some POC always use MLK ‘S “I have a dream speech” to stifle any debate on White American Privledge when they do not believe in King’s premise …..”

    I used to wonder this also until I recently read Shelby Steele’s “White Guilt.” As you may or may not now, Shelby Steele is a (Black) conservative who believes in the whole pull yourself up by your bootstraps hoopblah. I think that it is kind of a phenomenon that he actually views himself as being more radical than liberals. His thinking is sort of interesting. He believes that the notion that most Republicans tell non-whites to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is actually a compliment to non-whites because it shows that they are being viewed as capable people. Conversely, by using Government programs as intervention for the problems that non-whites face is considered to groom a victim mentality and fails to see non-whites as capable. I can see the theoretical logic, but the practicality and success rate of that model doesn’t hold water. I think that some of the points that he makes about blacks abandoning responsibility in the late 60s and 70s are valid, but I think then he starts to go way too far out for me.

    Another good reference regarding the use of the MLK “I Have a Dream” speech by Conservatives is Michael Eric Dyson’s “I may not make it there with you,” his book on Dr. King.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 5:43 pm ¶

62. Celeste wrote:

    @PaulPortland: Great point. I wish I could let go of feeling personally embarrassed when another black person is cuttin’ up somewhere but I have a long way to go with that. It’s like that elevator scene from I Think I Love My Wife

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 6:44 pm ¶

63. browne wrote:

    Oh another thing. I do see my boyfriend as a white guy, but whoever I go out with I see their sexuality and their race. I just can’t pretend as if it’s not there. I don’t go after a particular demographic. I like people who are nice to me, nice to others, smart, good sense of humor (because I have some pretty vulgar jokes) and loves their mother. I can pretty much work with anyone with those qualities.

    I always tell my boyfriend (who is insane) that he would be in jail if were a black man, kind of jokingly, but kind of in a matter of fact way. And he tells me if I were a white man I would have been published in a major way by now kind of jokingly, but kind of matter of fact.

    I don’t know if I believe when people say they don’t notice race, that are telling the truth. Of course I’m in the arts, I’m a writer, I’m in LA so race will come up and smack us in the face even if we did want to pretend.

    I watched a snippet of that dreadful CNN special online about being black with William and Janet Cohen. Janet was talking about how she didn’t notice William’s race, but then she said she had some reservations about marrying him because she didn’t want to hurt his career. I mean come on. If you don’t notice then why would you think that.

    I think you have to be honest with yourself and if you watch TV, go to the movies and say you don’t see color. You’ve got to be in denial or something.

    That’s like saying I don’t notice if someone is male or female, now if you’re a person who doesn’t notice that then I may be more likely to believe you in regards to the race thing.

    Browne

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶

64. Renee wrote:

    However, the man I am married to is also white, but instead of being a “beyond race” person, he is an anti-racist who has always found black women beautiful and desirable. He doesn’t look past my skin but right at it, and says that it’s lovely! In the past on Racialicious, I’ve seen preferences like his sometimes termed as being a “fetish”, but to be honest I’m just happy to be with someone who likes me for me, where I don’t have to wonder if he’d rather have my personality and interests repackaged in a white girl’s body.

    That right there is the key to having a successful inter racial relationship. It is important to be able to admit to seeing race and the differences that it leads to. Pretending to be colorblind is just patronizing to bodies of color.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 7:44 pm ¶

65. lxy wrote:

    One of the reasons why people spout the “I don’t see race” line has to do with how American racism and the US color caste system have changed.

    Instead of a Jim Crow system of the past, America now has a system based upon what some people call Colorblind Racism.

    In this new form of Colorblind Racism, the assertion that people don’t see color in practice means that they don’t see how color and racism grant some people status and power while denying these things to others.

    In other words, the mantra “I don’t see race” is really code for “I don’t want to see racism and race privilege.”

    This is an important development in US racism that is of great political significance but is not widely understood many people, including some activists.

    “Racism Without Racists- an analysis”
    http://whitestudiesblackstudies.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/racism-without-racists-an-analysis/

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 8:06 pm ¶

66. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @PortlandPaul,

    Sorry, but I dont like it when anyone makes excuses for racism, whether it is coming from PoC or from whites.

    I know I have said this before, but racism is wrong no matter what direction it comes from.

    I understand the anger and the frustation, but I dont buy that racist comments and stereotyping come only from that. I think it is the anger and the frustration that often allows people to say what normally they’d only think but never say.

    It is kind of like the people who say “I am not really racist, I was just mad”. I wouldnt buy that excuse from a white person, I wouldnt buy that excuse from anyone.

    Someone who is not racist doesnt just come out with a racist diatribe out of nowhere. The anger facilitates the voicing of real opinions and thoughts.

    Don Imus is clearly a racist that is why I dont buy any apology he came up with. He just voiced his heart felt opinons. He got caught out. People get caught out in various ways, but I would never disregard racist or stereotypical comments from anyone, no matter the excuse.

    The only way that we, as a society, are going to come together is for everyone to drop their racism. I know the burden is on white society because of history and the white power/privledge system, but that is not an excuse for other forms of racism.

    Either racism is wrong or it is not. Either you can condone it or it is to be condemned. Put yourself in the position of a person who is having racism directed at them and then try to tell them that it is only wrong they are racist. Everyone else’s racism is accepted for one reason or another.

    It’s a non starter and this attitude will not promote anything in the direction that we need to be going.

    If people want progress, if they want healing and for the communities to come together, I can tell you this is the EXACT opposite way to do it and does nothing but provide foder for the racists.

    Any look at the far right/racist blogs and sites out there will tell you they eat this type of stuff up. It is fuel for their fires and keeps some people who might otherwise support a progressive movement from doing so.

    To sum it up one cannot condemn racism from one corner and accept it from another without becoming a hypocrite.

    Racism is wrong, full stop.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:14 pm ¶

67. magda wrote:

    I’m a white female who tends to be attracted to women of color. I do date white women as well (and occasionally men) but I am definitely more strongly attracted to women with dark eyes, hair, and skin. This is something that I’ve wrestled with because I don’t want to exoticize the people that I date or use them as fetish objects. It’s part of the reason that I started to read sites like this one, so that I could educate myself and be a better girlfriend to the people that I prefer to date. Of course, now I’m hooked and feel very fortunate to have read all the things that I’ve read on race written by people of color. I wish that all white people felt compelled to do the same.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 10:45 pm ¶

68. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Abu –

    Okay, here is where we have issues again.

    I saw where you posted on your site about the definition of racism. However, if you take a peek at the comments to my 4th Generation Racist post, one of the first ideas that pops up is that PoCs cannot be racist. Now, me and Carmen and Wendi still believe PoCs can be racist -obviously, because we are racist towards each other. However, many others disagree due to the structural component of racism.

    I don’t like the “racism is wrong no matter where it comes from” argument not because it is incorrect (it is fundamentally true) but because all too often, it is used as a silencing tactic by white people to stop conversations PoCs have with each other. It holds PoCs to this impossible standard, that unless we behave 100% perfectly, then white society has the right to continue to discriminate with little to no regard for what has happened and what continues to happen. I notice this happens a lot on blogs geared toward white readers, who spend so much time accusing PoCs of furthering racism that you never get to the root of why we are so angry in the first place.

    However, if you never have to examine these issues and these privileges, how will you ever break through to a different kind of understanding? I had read an excellent essay by a Latina who wrote about being so angry when she was a teenager that she would beat up white girls, only later realizing that fighting white girls was petty and malicious and did nothing to end what was really vexing her – white privilege.

    But how do you have those conversations without stepping into tough areas?

    It’s like the piece on Interracial Dating I wrote a couple weeks ago. I didn’t write that for my health. I wrote it because it was a way to describe a subject that tends to promote anger and knee-jerk reactions with little to no examination. And what made it even more amazing is the level of success I had with that post – South Asian girls, East Asian men & women, Black women, Latinas, even white women were all able to find pieces of themselves within that post. And to talk and share their experiences for everyone else to read. Who knew South Asian girls grappled with the same struggle? Who knew some white women were uncomfortable even being put on that kind of pedestal?

    We have these kinds of conversations to move forward.

    And as a result of that conversation, I got two more submissions to the IR dating series, this one (which we are derailing) and another which will be posted next week. Different opinions, different narratives, different perspectives. But the ultimate goal is the same – to challenge how people think.

    These conversations are going to be messy. They are going to be fraught with anger and unexamined bias and denied privilege and all of that. But in order to move forward, we have to be able to examine these things.

    I suppose I would understand your sentiments more if we put up a “fuck whitey” link at the end of each post, but we don’t. I can’t think of anyone who hasn’t been on the wrong end of some tough comments here – either from internal group pressures or individual cross group examinations in the comments. But that is going to happen. If we tackle race head on, someone is going to get bruised. It is going to happen.

    But the point is not to dwell on hatred of any one group or to scapegoat but to go forward.

    And at this point, I have to say, you are undermining what I am attempting to do. I delete and ban people every single day for making disparaging remarks. I ban people for saying blacks are the true racists. I ban people who say things like they can’t wait for whites to be extinct. But I do allow misguided comments through to encourage growth.

    But what I don’t allow is people trying to police the level of discourse. That’s a job for the mods. And this kind of conversation isn’t for everyone. I do not want the kind of blog where everyone tiptoes around these kinds of subjects because they are afraid to offend. And I do not want the kind of neutered blogs I see where PoCs are afraid to speak for fear of being drowned out by the cries of Well Meaning White People.

    You don’t have to agree with my methods. But I do a lot of work behind the scenes to make sure this space stays on the productive side of provocative. And from where I sit, the conversation is progressing nicely. So maybe you want to reexamine if Racialicious is the blog for you. There are other antiracist blogs that would be a better match with your sensibilities.

    But I am really coming to the end of my rope .

    I do not run Racialicious for the comfort of white people reading here.

    I run this site to have the conversations about race other places aren’t having.

    And that includes the angry bits.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:02 pm ¶

69. Laura wrote:

    @Latoya

    I just wanted to say thank you for allowing these kinds of discussions to happen in the way you do. What I’ve seen here on Racialicious are truly interesting conversations that aren’t watered down to the same old race relations discussions you see on mainstream media that don’t really say anything new or spark productive/enlightening thoughts or conversations.

    I’m usual just a lurker, but I just really appreciated your last comment.

    Posted 14 Aug 2008 at 12:24 am ¶

70. Dan wrote:

    I’m a white male married to a black female.

    I love my wife’s color. I love her race. To ‘not see race’ and deny that she is black is to deny who she is. And how in the hell could I claim to love a woman if I were unwilling to see her for who she is?

    White guys who claim not to see race in their ethnic partner are doing so because they don’t want to face their own prejudices, even if those prejudices were voiced 10 years prior in an attempt to bond with other white guys by passing around epithets or jokes. So much easier to dismiss their own racism by ignoring it than face it and recondition themselves to realize that it’s perfectly normal to ’see’ race (insomuch as you can see such a concept), however what matters is what you think once you see it.

    Posted 14 Aug 2008 at 8:19 am ¶

71. kerrita k. wrote:

    racialicious – my light in the darkness.
    (i need to stop living in the boonies…)
    :0)
    -kerrita k.

    Posted 14 Aug 2008 at 2:15 pm ¶

72. Daughter wrote:

    I have a question re: preferences for certain certain types of men or women: why is that wrong?

    I’m an African-American woman, who because of whatever confluence of recessive genes I have, is lighter than most of my family. I also have blond hair and blue-green eyes.

    I prefer black men. Physically, I prefer brown skin and certain features such as full lips, which means in general I’m more attracted to black men and also Latino or Southeast Asian men who have those characteristics (Matt Damon is a notable exception; he’s one white man I think is really handsome). Emotionally, I tend to connect most with black men with whom I share a similar background and experiences.

    I could explore the reasons why; maybe because I grew up in a black neighborhood; maybe it was hearing my mother wax on about the “fineness” of Richard Roundtree, Billy Dee Williams and Johnny Mathis when I was a child; maybe it was due to being told I was ugly so much as a child because of my light skin and blond hair and wishing I were different.

    Who knows? The fact is, for whatever reason, that’s what attracts me. I have dated white men, and if I weren’t married, I wouldn’t rule a non-black man out, but it is harder to get over the attraction hurdle. I assume that most people have some physical and personality types that attract them more than others (like the woman above who said that her boyfriend was attracted to her because she was punk). Why is that wrong?

    BTW, I no longer think of myself as ugly, although it wasn’t until I was at least 16 or 17 before I could appreciate my own looks. And I happen to think that my daughter and my brother’s daughter, who, despite our darker partners, have the same light skin and blond hair that we do (although with brown eyes), are the two most beautiful little girls on the planet

    Posted 14 Aug 2008 at 4:21 pm ¶

73. Abu Sinan wrote:

    Latoya,

    Maybe I will just have to learn to overlook stereotyping and racism directed at myself and whites and try to understand and learn why people are racist towards whites.
    
    Mod Note – Like I said, this is complicated. I was already planning to address this in a few posts on whites in the anti-racist movement. Trying to understand and learn why people behave in a certain way is always a good thing. For me, that kind of research leads me to believe that there is a lot of anger at injustice and the predominant system of racism in the US, and that leads to actions rooted in bias. The key, from my understanding, is to analyze these situations and separate out the why. You may come to a different conclusion. -LDP

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 8:48 am ¶

74. Michelle @ Bridge Co wrote:

    Allie and other TRAs,

    There are a lot of books out there about the experience of being the only PoC in a White family. For example for a dramatic story try “the book of Sarahs” by Catherine E. McKinley. For lots of stories try “Outsiders within: writing on transracial adoption” edited by Jane Jeong Trenka, Julia Chinyere Oparah, and Sun Yung Shin. There are many others. Try the Pact Alliance website for book resources and the transracial adopted person’s bill of rights.

    For Biracial adoptees in all Black families try Barbara Gowan’s book ( I want to say “blended” or “blended in” is the title) or Thomas Brook’s Book ” A wealth of Family”

    Also Dawn Turner at the Chicago Tribune has a good blog going on race called exploring race” . On 8/13/08 Laura Gannarelli wrote her essay about being a TRA. http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race/2008/08/beauty-through.html. I wrote mine about being Biracial the week before. The comments varied from supportive to mean. ( Another post to be sure on how offended I was to be called a mutt, a mulatto and other offensive terms… )

    Anyway, there is a start of resources out there. BTW, AMEA http://www.ameasite.org just awarded their first scholarship and I believe one of the winners was a TRA.

    Michelle

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 9:48 am ¶

75. Michelle @ Bridge Co wrote:

    Thank you LaToya.

    Also I would argue that there are different definitions of racism. There is racism (that all people can exhibit) that is prejudice based on race. Then their is institutionalized racism that can only be conducted by a group with power. It is one thing to hear a racial slur ( which I do not appreciate ) but another if you or your group have the power to not give me a job based on my race, to make my educational system suck based on race, to put something over your airwaves that will convince a group of people to not treat me with fairness, the ability to pull me over and/or arrest me..

    Most people of color or groups of color curently lack the power in the US to institute racism on the scale that White people do.

    There are several other definitions of racism. But if Abu is using one definition and LaToya is using another definition of racism , there is a miscommunication.

    Michelle

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 10:00 am ¶

76. LM wrote:

    @Abu Sinan (#66): You’re right. I think you make your point well.

    But I also agree with Latoya (#68). And PaulPortland (#51).

    I don’t whether your tone in #73 is of sarcasm, resignation, frustration or acceptance. But if you step back from it, you’ve hit the nail on the head: it would be good for you to “overlook stereotyping and racism directed at myself and whites.”

    That’s not a blanket statement — there will be times that you’ll need to stand up and call BS. Knowing when won’t always be easy (and of course it is a personal decision) and knowing how will probably be harder.

    Consider, most people of color, especially but not only in majority-white societies, “overlook stereotyping and racism” every day in going about their business. And that’s without getting into stuctural inequities in society that have been centuries in the making and perpetuating.

    This isn’t to say that responding in kind is right on the stereotyping front. And I don’t care to debate the definition of racism; as Michelle at #75 correctly points out, people using different definitions can misunderstand one another.

    But you can take what you interpret to be stereotyping and racism that you’re reading here. You will survive. I don’t walk in your shoes, but I’ve read your comments here and a bit of your blog — you seem like a decent guy who’s willing to make leaps of faith. (Excuse me if my language is getting unimaginative.)

    Even if you don’t get what I’m saying now, I believe strongly you’ll get it later — five years, 10 years, 15 years from now, sometime.

    Again, I’m not even saying you’re wrong — just that there’s more for you to pick up.

    And consider those times when you encounter so-called positive stereotyping because of your status… you may know that it’s wrong, but how vehement are you in letting people know? Fighting that unearned — and I presume unrequested — privilege is easier said than done.

    Stating the equivalent to “all racism is wrong” in this context is somewhat similar, to me at least. I don’t know how to express that logically, and that’s why I recommend you’ll get it later.

    Be cool.

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 12:59 pm ¶

77. CVT wrote:

    Lisa -

    So much about the “color-blind” exes sounds familiar. I actually wrote this in a post of my own a while back:

    “I had a white ex-girlfriend who was dating another bi-racial (white/Asian) guy. When I asked her what his specific background was (Chinese, Japanese, etc.), she said she didn’t know and was shocked when I told her that that was something she should ask. When I told her that likely really mattered to him, she argued with me and asked, “How would you know?” She later said she was surprised that I hadn’t “dealt with” the fact that I never saw people that looked like me around since I should “be used to it by now.”

    Should be no surprise that she also told me that she “didn’t think of me as Asian.”

    I have a lot more to say, but that’s why I have my own blog – but I’d love for you to check out my own post on interracial dating to see what you think:
    http://choptensils.blogspot.com/2008/07/on-interracial-relationships-part-ii.html

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 1:21 pm ¶

78. ric wrote:

    [Mod Note - Please stop posting your angry "Asian American women are brain washed!" messages. The author of this piece is biracial - mixed black and white. As she states in the piece. - LDP]

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 3:27 pm ¶

79. Andrea wrote:

    When I think about interracial dating there are two points I see that need to be made clear. First one, criteria that create attraction towards someone, from physical features to a certain way of being, having a lot to do with personality. To me this first point can’t be ignored or blamed for, it is what it is and we don’t always know the reason why. Second point, I think there can’t be a “beyond race” concept but a complete acceptance of our significant other as a whole, a will, and a courage to face people and whatever bullshit they may come at both of you with.

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 3:57 pm ¶

80. Janine deManda wrote:

    TierList E wrote:
    “@Promethius
    Wicca is a very recent religion.”

    I’m not agreeing with prometheus, but I do feel compelled to point out that Wicca is so old it makes my teeth hurt – the earliest version of it I know of was roughly 24,000 years ago, and the Celtic Paganism that is often closely associated or confused with it goes back roughly 3,000 years at least. Just clarifying.

    With regard to the main topic, I have been reading the interracial dating threads with interest. Though I admit I didn’t make it all the way through the comments on the one just before this one, it’s good to read folks engaging this topic earnestly.

    For myself, a couple of points that weren’t really addressed in what I read are rattling insistently in my brain.

    First, what about the inside/outside dynamics of these relationships? I’m a generationally mixed blood person who can pass for white. My primary partner is a generationally mixed blood person who can pass for black. The way we experience our relationship is often very different from the way it is perceived by those outside of it, and the ways those outside of it perceive it often differs widely as well. I’d be curious to read a post on this topic that addressed those complexities in more depth.

    Second, I was distressed by what struck me on the post before this one as the casually misogynist and fatphobic judgment of some of the white women some black men date – as if it would be absurd to imagine that fat women can be hot {white or not}, and the black men dating them can find them so as opposed to both parties having mutually toxic reasons for “settling” for each other. Mainstream beauty norms have been critically examined in these threads insofar as their Eurocentrism is concerned, but that dis struck me as an indication that there’s a lot more to mine in that aspect of this topic as well.

    Thanks for all the thought-provocation!

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 4:31 pm ¶

81. Myles wrote:

    On the line of seeing beyond race:

    Once when I was talking about how growing up people thought i was a “mexican” and the stuff I had to deal with growing up multiracial, a Black girl said something to the effect of :

    “I doesn’t really bother me that your mixed. I think of you as Black person.”

    With this tone like she had given me this wonderful compliment. Like she mentally adjusts her image of me to turn me into something more. . . pleasant.

    *sigh*

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 5:31 pm ¶

82. PaulPortland wrote:

    First off, I’d like to cosign Latoya’s, Michelle’s @75, and LM’s @ 76 comments as insightful and well-written discussions.

    @ Abu Sinan:

    I really do see where you’re coming from. When I find myself rashly typing angry condemnations of white people, wildly generalizing about how white people do, etc., in the back of my mind, my superego is kicking me in the butt for being such a dumbass. However, allow me to make one “excuse” for why my kind of “racism” is slightly less egregious then, say, the “racism” of an angry white man:

    I get pissed off and angry at white America because, for me, the racism which condemns large numbers of minorities in this country to a life of poverty, of marginalization, of ridicule, of self-loathing, of self-destruction, of violent attacks against their person, of glass ceilings and false starts perverts the reasons why I love America. To me, America is the greatest and most noblest experiment ever attempted in human history. It is a nation not based on ethnicity or religion, but a nation based on Enlightenment ideas. Anyone, regardless of skin color, creed, national origin, etc., has the right to call themselves an American and enjoy the rights and privileges of an American so long as they believe in these Enlightenment ideas of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and equality. So when I lash out at white America, when I stereotype white people, I do so because I think their privilege and their selfishness is undermining my America.

    On the flip-side, I think the angry white man (which you have used as a counter-example in some of your posts) resorts to “racism” because he feels that his privilege is being taken away from him. He isn’t angry because minorities aren’t living up the American Dream. He’s angry because minorities are elbowing in on the American Dream, a dream he feels only he has the right to enjoy, no strings attached. That’s the difference, I think, between the “racism” of angry PoC and the “racism” of angry white men.

    Finally, I would like to apologize if I’ve come off as flippantly disregarding the offense you take to people stereotyping white folks.

    Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 11:30 pm ¶

83. nicene42 wrote:

    I am a black woman who is dating a white man in the South. We have had several conversations about race in America. However when it comes to the two of us and our personal relationship, we refuse to let the hang-ups of a messed up society dictate the way we see each other. We are individuals with our own ideas, issues, and agendas. Our lives don’t exist in a vacuum but we try our best to always be true ourselves and not stereotypes.

    Posted 17 Aug 2008 at 12:03 pm ¶

84. dalia wrote:

    lisa,

    even though i’m “full-black” (really, does one-drop rule apply to having “white blood” in you?), and not mixed race, i do really relate to your post. it’s a topic i’ve always meant to blog about, but hadn’t the energy (nor the ability to write cohesively about the subject).

    i, too, used to think that “i don’t see colour” was a sweet sentiment, but now, in my thirties, i realize it’s a man’s way of saying that he doesn’t see ME… and it’s kind of the forehead-smack of why my relationships with white men have ended on such an inconclusive note (when, for all intents and purposes things seemed to go well).

    my relationships with black men have been few and far between in my adult years, but it’s not for lack of trying! i always got flack and the spiel about acting/talking/being (wtf?) white from black men, so i just kind of gave up on the idea that i might meet one who “gets” me.

    in dating white guys, we often had more in common vis-a-vis interests and activities, but in the end, their blindness to colour blinded them to who i really am.

    Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 10:11 am ¶

85. walterrock wrote:

    Interacial and intercultural marriages are something thats not for every person regardless of race. I am a brother who married someone from the Middle East (non Muslim) and i can tell you that the perception of “Blackness” that my wife has (25 yrs) is influenced by the media and her culture. I am an educated professional who has never forgotten my “Ghettoness” (please, I use the word affectionatly–it is the common sense instilled from my parents–a realness to the world-a love of things that make use who we are). I grew up on the streets of Toledo Ohio in the 70″s and still stay in contact with my friend who are all decent black men, imperfect, but decent. My boys are like me, smart, straight up, and black without the hip hop. They never walked around with their pants down and listened to ganster rap at somebody elses house. My wife has always felt that if they were more like her culture, or even white, their achievements would be higher than joining the Air Force or getting C’s in college. The great thing about the relationship is I dont need her approval or anyone elses to define me as a man. I am a spiritual, gifted, successful, smart, black man:, proud, a good father and husband, who has the respect and admiration of of her family. So here it is; the system has made it what it is-that black are only as good as they are allowed to define it. We will always be black, and they will always think certain things no matter how hard they/we try. Any relationship is hard, especilly interacial ones. Be who you are, who you want to be–date whomever you want, live your life to the fullest, and tell everyone else to shut the …..and mind their business.

    Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 7:24 pm ¶

86. B wrote:

    I’m coming at this late. Good post. Hubby (w) is on board with the difference between being “anti-racist” (him) and “beyond race” (creepy white guys who would proceed to hit on me and/or try to prove that they were more “down” than the then-future hubby). Father-in-law on board as well. Mother-in-law is another story–definitely on the spectrum somewhere between “beyond race” and “anti-racist,” but misses some things. I think I’ll be able to deal as long as she doesn’t say anything stupid to any future kids we may have.

    In terms of the ant-racist folk y’all know, how do their families and other friends compare? Some of hubby’s friends are closer to “beyond” than “anti,” some full-on “anti.”

    Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 10:50 pm ¶

87. B wrote:

    @ DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! (29)

    In that case, rent “Something New” and skip all the junk in the beginning and end. The middle has a bunch of extreme closeups (extreme as in, so close most of us would look strange *that* close) of the two above pretty people.

    Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 10:58 pm ¶

88. Dave wrote:

    That’s a very good point about saying you “don’t see race” and being anti-racist. I’m a WM dating an amazing BW. If I said didn’t see her race, I’d be denying a huge part of her personality and essence of who she is. The plain fact is that her being black is an immensely attractive thing for me, not just in the sense of the physical, but also in the sense that she opens my eyes to new perceptions and ideas. Her being black allows her to challenge some of the ideas and preconceived notions that I have. It’s an incredible experience to have her share her culture, ideas and thoughts with me. I absolutely love that kind of stimulation.

    I don’t want to deny our differences. I want to celebrate them. They’re beautiful and exciting.

    Posted 19 Aug 2008 at 2:42 pm ¶

89. Eric Daniels wrote:

    I can see from all this tolerant lovefest is that it didn’t answer my basic question that PaulPortland and I to a minor extent bought up and it’s a legitimate issue, how people judge people according to pop culture or movies, if you were an alien and looked down on the planet earth and by some of the opinions on this post that either BW ,AW and WM either are the most open-minded anti-racist people in America or BM and AM are some of the most sexist,violent closed-minded men in this country.And that’s far from any reality some of you posters are stating in this post.

    And it is not about relationships or sex it is about the double standards applied going back to childhood, if a BMor AM said he choose to date WW or any other ethnic group because of BF/AW rejection there would be anger rained down on that Brotha or Asian dude for sterotyping BW/AW because they are dating because the they are dating across racial lines is a lack of compatible partner who they have in anything in common with.

    We judge people for whatever gualities postive or negative or any group, but those sterotypes have consquences and they extend into a job, school or social settings. I would have a hard time trusting a spouse of BW / WM interviewing me for a job or hanging out with as friends because people bring their biases into relationships and regardless of all the anti-racist posts I have read I am a bit cyncial of people’s so-called open-mindedness.

    Posted 19 Aug 2008 at 6:26 pm ¶

90. barbara wrote:

    Me-caramel, thick coarse hair; my sister-light skinned with fine hair. as kids we got questions like why is your sister so light and you dark, or white girls would want to touch my hair and black kids would want to play in erica’s. I did not think it was racist then and as an adult I still don’t. It was curiousity of the unknown. Having said that, my sis married a Hispanic man, they divorced. She remarried a white man and they are still together. So the family consists of a black mom, white dad, hispanic/black daughter, and white/black son. Will kids question them? I am sure they will, that is how kids learn. We can’t and shouldn’t stifle that, we should teach them instead of saying “oh we don’t talk about that”
    Anyway as for interracial dating, it is a personal choice. I have never dated a white man and have been approached by a Hispanic man but was not interested. That’s just me. I prefer dark skinned men, but alas it is usually the ones with the lighter complexion that try to get at me. Does that make me racist within my race: no! It just means I have a preference.
    Saying all that to say this: no one is perfect, date who you want and let everyone else date who they want. To each his own.

    Posted 20 Aug 2008 at 10:05 am ¶

91. B wrote:

    @Eric Daniels,

    I’m not sure if I follow you. Of those who have posted here who have acknowledged themselves to be in interracial relationships, how many have said it was because they rejected those of their race? Also, if people are describing their partners as being “anti-racist,” why would those partners be the first to judge BMs or AMs negatively?

    Posted 20 Aug 2008 at 8:03 pm ¶

92. Witchsistah wrote:

    Its interesting how different sentiments get interpreted. In one post, a woman felt uncomfortable with her white mates preference for non-white women because it made her feel reduced to an interchangeable entity. Here, the preference for black women gives the author comfort. I guess it just depends on how the mate expresses their preference.

    It does, bertie. I’ve dated two White men who’ve expressed a preference for Black women exclusively. One, my ex, was a fetishist who was all about what Black women could do for HIM. He’d blow smoke up our asses to get us to fall for him (and hell, it felt good to have someone deem you beautiful, desirable and wonderful BECAUSE of your Blackness rather than IN SPITE OF it) and then he’d demand we’d be some sort of “take charge,” StrongBlackWoman who’d take care of him especially financially. Basically he wanted to be the kept man of some Black virago. Yeah, that’s one of many reasons why he’s an EX.

    The other White man I dated who had an exclusive preference for Black women is my husband. But I didn’t have to be any certain type of Black woman for him. I didn’t have to be some jacked-up, essentialist stereotype like with my ex and I didn’t have to try and erase my Blackness either. I could finally be me in all my Negro, quirky, nerdy glory.

    Posted 21 Aug 2008 at 12:06 am ¶

93. Joseph The Rider wrote:

    The concept of “race” is a huge problem in dating and marriage I have observed. If we are one biological species, then why are some populations less desirable to many women and men while the European norm and “whiteness” is favored? The answer to me is obviously tied with the “social ranking” and the discriminatory vilification and/or public perception of the group. For example, Asian men are viewed as shy, withdrawn, nerdy, or into martial arts. They are never assocoated in positions of power and compassion or as sexual beings. Dark skinned people of the African diaspora are also viewed in stereotypical ways like being criminals, promiscuous, or “players”. I have heard (too many) people say bigoted things about Arabs with comments about them being wife abusers and/or terrorist. People grouped as “Latinos/Hispanics” which vary in skin tone and physical traits but can produce offspring accordingly depending on recessive or dominant traits being combined, can be viewed as poor, lazy, criminal as well, or being womanizers. These are just some stereotypes but there are many made up to influence the public perception and make the person in question seem unattractive, unintelligent, or not the best partner. All of this comes from the top down with the “lightest” having more options then the “darkest”. Since this also effects the economic situation of the individuals it can be a factor that cause them to never attract mates. Until this is honesty is spoken in social circles and in the popular media, animosity will grow and so will relationship issues. We don’t live in an equal society especially in the west. Privilege, perceived power, and the wealth that comes from it is a main factor in attracting mates for relationship, dating, and marriage.

    Posted 07 Sep 2008 at 4:17 am ¶

94. Jaleigh wrote:

    this post made me smile. i dated a half white half filipino guy, who is still really brown, and no one had a problem with it what so ever. his father is remarried to another pure bred filipino woman and they have a new family. his dad’s side of the family have a completely different culture than mine [white american] and they were so welcoming and kind. i’m currently in my first relationship with a black guy and for some reason this is a huge deal to everyone. one would assume it would be the other way around. the filipinos even spoke a different language and somehow this was more accepting to everyone. i believe there should be no problem either way, but it just doesn’t make sense in my mind. any of it. fuck em all.

    Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 12:40 pm ¶

95. Gia wrote:

    I just had to comment b/c it seems as though our dating lives are mirrored. I too am biracial. Last winter, I was involved with a white guy who had never dated outside of his race until me. He would say the same exact thing, that he saw me as a person and not my skin. But the real enlightening moment for me was his reaction to my hair. He stated that he only “understood” straight hair. When I asked him to explain himself, the gist of what he meant was that straight hair is better. I have always loved and embraced my curls and I took offense to his comments. That was when I realized that dating this guy was not in my best interest because either I was playing the role of exotic pet or he was waiting for his straight haired goddess to come along. Experiences such as this continually make me question race and dating. Those who claim to be racially neutral sometimes tend to be the most prejudiced of all. As a result, I’m more careful and selective about who I date.

    Posted 05 Oct 2008 at 12:51 pm ¶

96. NMSC wrote:

    I know this is an old post but I came across it and had to comment. Honestly I feel like this is such an archaic take on interracial relationships. Some of us are in interracial relationships and we don’t claim to be “beyond race” and we don’t identify as anti-racist either because well, we often find anti-racism movements reinforce stereotypes more often than dismantling them. Most other interracial couples I know are somewhere in the middle – this seems like an oversimplified analysis.

    Posted 26 Dec 2008 at 11:48 pm ¶

97. Anonymous wrote:

    i think you can embrace race as an aspect of your partner’s identity that makes for a richer, fuller understanding of them as a individual. Our cultural experiences are informed by race- particularly in the United States, which is so very diverse and has such an ongoing hyper-consciousness of race. To not look at race is sort of like not looking at half of your partner’s personal history.

    I’m white- but I’ve dated people from many different backgrounds. I’ve dated black men, white men, latino men, asian men and arab men. Overall, I’ve found that what attracts me to an individual is the individual. Race doesn’t define that. You can’t say “black men are like this” or “white men are like that” and have it be accurate. That’s stereotyping- and someone will always surprise you.

    But you can say that being black or white or whatever is some aspect of who you are, and I respect that.

    Posted 14 Apr 2009 at 1:45 pm ¶

98. kiki wrote:

    This article is so interesting for me because as a black woman growing up in a predominantly white town I always had people saying racial comments to me that never registered until now..im 22.
    My own best friends would ask me “do you wish you were white like us sometimes” or after i would straighten my hair “hey your hair kind of looks like ours now, its cute”.
    It truly disgusts me that i was so naive and really didn’t think anything of it back then. I mean i knew deep in my heart that it was wrong in my heart to say that but being the only black girl in a group of white friends what could my awkward teenage self do.
    Anyways growing up i dated only 2 black guys…the competition was so fierce in my town with there being not many black guys and tons of white girls for them to pick over that would do anything for these “black kings” that i just never felt like it was worth trying to like them. I’ve dated mostly white men and feel like there is no competition and i don’t have to try so hard.
    I’ve moved and live in another small town going to college in idaho where its the exact same thing: a very Caucasian community a few black men and all the white girls vying and competing for there attention..i say whats the big deal

    Posted 01 Aug 2009 at 2:54 am ¶

99. Juliana wrote:

    This is an interesting perspective. I am a white girl in an interracial relationship and have never been happier!! I’ve always thought my own porcelain skin was BORING and blah!! I am very much like your hubby….I love the hues that my boyfriend has and find him so incredibly beautiful!! Both inside and out.

    I continually run into people from my past who said they didn’t care if my boyfriend was purple with yellow spots…as long as i was happy. But as i run into them around town i sense their uncomfortableness with my boyfriend who is black, it makes me realize that yes, they can SAY that all they want, but that’s not really how they feel.

    I have NEVER been racist or put a label on someone because of their skin tone. And i always thought that i didn’t keep those kind of people in my life. I can say now that i don’t. I won’t put up with someone’s ignorance and bigotry directed at others who i happen to love with all my heart. My stance is plain and simple…if you don’t love others wholeheartedly for WHO they are and not what they look like…i don’t want you in my life. Period.

    I commend you on this article!! Well said! And congrats for finding the man who loves you for WHO you are!!

    Posted 04 Aug 2009 at 11:27 pm ¶

100. Juliana wrote:

     And i also wanted to add….people are people. No matter what their skin tone, color or background. We are all made the same. We all have what really matters….lungs to breath with, eyes to see with and a heart to love with.

     Some people out there will take a while to catch up to the fact that it’s 2009 though. I welcome that. Teach the world that it makes no difference what color or race people are…love is all the matters in the end.

     Posted 04 Aug 2009 at 11:41 pm ¶