Interracial Dating: Grudgingly Heading Toward Acceptance at Racialicious

Interracial Dating: Grudgingly Heading Toward Acceptance

by Latoya Peterson

This is my second contribution to the interracial dating series. I originally wasn’t going to contribute after the intro post as my experience in this area is extremely limited. But, since we aren’t having the conversations I want to have, I’ll take a crack at it. I’m going to come off as a jerk, and I’m okay with this. Feel free to pose any questions you like in the comments, but I am going to ask that you refrain from making assumptions about my friends. If you want to know something, ask. - LDP

My best friend dates white girls.

It’s still painful for me to type that. Just the words, staring me in the face on the screen is like me pouring salt on a five year old wound. How the hell did that even happen?

Things weren’t always this way. Back in high school, I started kicking it with the guy who would eventually become best male friend (hereafter referred to as Bestboy). At the time, we bonded over a mutual love of reading, rock music, and dying our hair ridiculous colors normally only found in packs of Kool-aid. Bestboy was busy exploring his identity as a burgeoning black intellectual with a skateboard and back then his common refrain when it came to relations with the opposite sex was that he “dated the rainbow.” He found my insistence on dating within the race puzzling, I found his dating outside of it equally strange. But, as adolescents are wont to do, these minor disagreements were laid aside in favor of discussing more pressing matters like how many people could fit into a Honda Hatchback on the way home from HFStival.

Time passed, we graduated, and me and Bestboy kept in touch. Our hobbies grew in the same direction and we reunited around mutual adoration of art and anime. There was only one thing that became a quiet little undertone to many of our conversations. Over the last few years, the “rainbow” Bestboy spoke of had faded into one color: white.

Now, at this point, many of you may be wondering why I care about these things at all. Why do I care who my best friend dates? What does it matter the race of his partner as long as he is happy?

In a perfect world, these things wouldn’t matter. Love would just be love.

But the world isn’t perfect and these things do matter.

Love doesn’t occur in a vacuum.

Now, Bestboy still often repeats that he dates the rainbow - until I point out that the last three serious girlfriends over the last five years have all been white. And that most of the women he tries to pick up at bars are white. And most of the women he finds attractive and approaches are white. Specifically, tall, thin, and some variation of blond.

He’ll then point out some random three-night stand as proof that he still does and I’ll point out that his dating habits go beyond the paper bag test - these women could pass the manilla folder test. And since my friend is deeper in tone than I, I tend to look at him skeptically.

At this point, we have a low simmering feud on our hands.

Now, I have never been one to comment on the nature of other people’s interracial relationships. First of all, it’s just rude. I’ve often cringed in horror when I overhead someone suck their teeth at the site of a black man strolling around with a white woman. After all, generally speaking we do not know that nature of someone’s relationship from a quick glance. All that is revealed there are pre-existing stereotypes. So, unless a man is walking around with a tee-shirt reading “Just white girls for me, thanks!” we are not privy to what happened with this particular situation or how they hooked up.

But with this friend, I do know the history. I’ve been there. And as he frequently asks for dating advice, I frequently comment.*

As time passes, our discussions of interracial dating started to have a bit of an edge to them. Bestboy openly admires my relationship with my boyfriend, and I have to choke back a cutting response about black love being sweetest. After his most recent breakup, I found myself seriously considering my positions. It was a train wreck of a situation in which he found that his latest white girl was a closet racist after she made a “those people” remark after attending one of his family functions, which spiraled into a three week long fight about race, sex, and class ultimately ending in their demise. Boyfriend and I sat on the bed, listening to the whole sorrid tale before commenting.

“Stop dating white girls,” Boyfriend said, and I nodded in agreement.

A day or so after that, we were at brunch when he started eyeing the willowy blond waitress.

“She’s cute,” said Bestboy.

“She’s cuter,” I said, indicating a petite Latina with waist-length dark hair who had been seated across from us.

Bestboy gave me a deep sigh.

“Will you cut that out?” he asked with a note of exasperation.

“I will when you start dating brown people,” I fired back.

The comments come to mind quickly - they are difficult to tame.

I recently tried to put my finger on why Bestboy’s dating habits bothered me so much. I have other friends who date interracially and their choice of partner never phases me a bit. So why is it different when it comes to him?

After a little probing, it came to me.

It is the same reason that certain comments cut deep.

Like TAN remarking “and I do have to acknowledge that blonde/white/gold/peach/light turns my head faster than Darkness, even if it isn’t a superlative blonde, peach or whatever” in his discussion of why he is trying to condition himself to like mediocre black girls. Or that one line from “Cupids Chokehold,” that Gym Class Heroes song where Travis raps that his girlfriend has “porcelain skin.” Yes, I am aware of his girlfriend and his biracial heritage. But it still hurts to hear a brown man openly praise a certain skin tone that most black women will never achieve. As a black woman moving through society, these comments aren’t casual or innocent to me. They are not attacks. But they are reminders of what I am not, and what I will never be.

In discussions of beauty - particularly those on women centered blogs - white women can understand being held up to an unrealistic standard of beauty. To be impossibly thin, impossibly blonde, impossibly clear skinned, with a body that defies the law of physics is presented as something that is attainable if you try hard enough and buy the right products, though many women find these efforts to be futile. What most of these conversations do not understand is that when black women pick up these kinds of magazines, or watch advertisements on TV, or popular television shows with popular white actresses, we do not get the message “try harder.”

The message we receive is never.

You will never look like this. Not if you straighten your hair, or lose weight, or work out every single day, or have the perfect body and the perfect wardrobe to match. Even if you fit all those requirements, you’re still “pretty for a black girl.” And if, for some reason, you do not fit these requirements, if your hair is frizzy or curly or kinky, if your thighs and ass will always keep your size in the double digits, if your features are not keen, if your skin tone is too deep, then there are many people who will never consider you beautiful.

They will never see who you are.

I remember reading an online conversation where a (presumably white) commenter had said “Well, every where I go, I hear Black is Beautiful!”

And I thought to myself yes, because that has to be stated - over and over again - for people to begin to believe it. The idea that white is beautiful is so common, so throughly saturated in our society, that is does not need mentioning.

It is just fact.

So, in watching the transformation of my friend’s dating habits, I also wonder about the influence of society. Why is it that now is the time he chooses to date white women almost exclusively? Is it because we are approaching the age for marriage and children? Why is it that the women he chooses to consider long term relationships with are always white?

Occasionally, my black woman rage seeps out and I find myself lecturing him. While I am currently on the sidelines of the dating pool, I see my single black female friends who are gorgeous and talented and ambitious and caring and wonderful remain single while my quirky, IBM** on paper best friend brings by white woman after white woman and I just want to know why.

And then it hits me. I don’t really have a problem with him dating white women.

I do have a problem with the specific white women that he is dating.

Back in high school, we were all learning our tastes. So while he dated a seemingly endless stream of girls, of varying races and ethnicities, they all had a few things in common. They were bold, intelligent, and interesting. They had some physical traits in common, but for the most part, the girls he dated back then were defined by their personalities. I remember one girl dyed her blond hair varying colors to match her mood and wore a piece of hardware on a chain around her neck just so she could tell the boys to “suck her nuts.” The other girls from that era were equally as interesting and colorful and I can remember most of their likes and interests.

Contrast that with the women he’s brought me to meet in adulthood. Bland, wan, boring and uninteresting, they sit silently at the table when we go out and do not engage in conversation. They are uniformly thin and chesty. They are prone to dramatic threats when they are feeling ignored, but are otherwise a silent species intent on staring at their own reflections. They drink too much, too often, and often wake up in the throes of regret about something.

Bestboy once showed me a video from CollegeHumor.com called “Amy at the Club.” In the video, the actress is parodying the legions of (white) women who drink to escape their problems, come off as obsessive and strange, and think sexual contact is a quick and easy substitute for conversation.

I couldn’t laugh at the video.

I saw too many of his girlfriends in that parody.

The only difference is the actress is a brunette and his last girlfriend could hold her liquor.

One girl he dated for two years, and she was a nice, sweet girl.

She was also as boring as wallpaper paste.

Bestboy complained about her lack of stimulating conversation and home body habits often, often calling me in frustration after they would fight. When they broke up, I asked him what he saw in her.

He shrugged. “She cooked. And she let me do whatever I wanted in the bedroom.”

The answer irked me, especially as the answer has repeated itself with other women. It is not the fact that he dates white women, but the fact that he seems insistent on dating a stereotype - and specifically, the stereotype that is often attributed to white women: submissive, sexually adventurous, and easily controlled.

As he started to discuss all the things he had asked her to do sexually- things he asked for just because he could - I felt the angry black woman start welling up again. Is that it? Is that all it fucking is? The grand mystique of white girls boils down to passenger seat blow jobs and a girl who will shut up on command? What the fuck?

In that moment, I could completely understand the teeth sucking that happens, the anger that occurs, why so many black women start getting that familiar pain behind the eyes when they see a white woman and a black man linked romantically. It isn’t just about them, in that specific relationship, at that specific point in time.

It is also what that pairing symbolically represents.

The black man, envy of the world, attractive and in control, shunning his darker sisters for a white prize. The white woman, beauty standard world over and desired by all races of man, able to pick and choose any man for the taking.

And black women, mules of the world, once again pull the short end of the straw. We came up short, again. Lost out to a white girl, again. Have yet another subtle reinforcement that even the men who look like us do not find us attractive. Again.***

It’s enough to make a woman consider kicking her best friend down the stairs.

But, I don’t. I inhale deeply and remember that I am loved, remember that there are plenty of men who don’t act or behave this way around white women, remember that there are some people who were able to navigate the treacherous path of stereotypes and fetishes, and manage to come out with love.

Love.

This thing that is so difficult to find, so fleeting, so elusive that it is hard to begrudge anyone who has found it with anyone of their joy. Their love. Their story.

But as I said before, love does not happen in a vacuum. The influences of societal programming run deep. And when I see Bestboy, the question on my mind most often is not why white women, but rather, don’t brown girls deserve love too?

Why don’t you think you’ll be happy with one of us?

I wonder these things. But more often, I wonder about my friend. He isn’t happy, and with each failed relationship, he feels as though he is moving further and further into being a lifelong bachelor. He occassionally voices his sadness aloud, and I hurt for him. Everyone wants to be loved. I’m just worried he’s looking in the wrong place. He’s looking for the woman society holds as beautiful and desirable, the airbrushed and polished trophy, and not the real flesh and blood women that exist in the world.

Women who know who they are. Women of any race.

And I would be happy for him, whoever he finds, of any race, as long as she suits him.

But until then, old habits die hard.

Another Sunday passes, we’re breaking bread at yet another brunch spot, yet another blond walks by and I find myself subconciously scouting for a WoC alternative.

The blonde passes.

“She’s cute,” Bestboy remarks.

“She’s cuter,” I say, inclining my head to a tall desi girl with a cute short bob and wicked earrings.

Bestboy looks at me and sighs. He’s not ready to admit that my racial analysis of his dating life could have some foundation in the truth. But he does recognize that something is wrong.

“Look,” he finally says, “I’m trying, okay?”

I know how he feels.

In my own way, I’m trying too.

—-

*And yes, I told him I was writing this post.

**Ideal Black Man, for those of you who haven’t seen Something New.

***Yes, I am aware this is not true, black men (and men of other races) rushing to our defense. I am exploring the feeling here.

Trackbacks & Pings

Facing My Demons « Mochaccino Chai on 05 Aug 2008 at 8:51 pm

[…] One of my demons has to do with my appearance. This post is inspired by Racialicious’s latest post on interracial dating. In discussing her annoyance and discomfort with Black men dating White […]
“Beyond Race” vs “Anti-Racist” « Orange Crushed on 06 Aug 2008 at 10:41 am

[…] (This is in response to this post on Racialicious.) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Racial UnityWhen Will Those In The White Race Stop The Harrassmentpersonality, preference, and racePoll Finds Obama’s Run Isn’t Closing Divide on Race - NYTimes.com […]
Quote of the Day « spacedcowgirl on 04 Sep 2008 at 12:34 am

[…] The following is a Toni Morrison quotation provided by the commenter truthpoet in response to a post about interracial dating at Racialicious. I hope I am not inappropriately co-opting the quotation, […]
Interracial Relationships: Anyone But a White Man For Me : Brown Sugar on 06 Jan 2009 at 9:17 pm

[…] her post, “Interracial Dating: Grudgingly Heading Toward Acceptance,” Latoya Peterson gives a very thoughtful, non-cliched reason for her having such issues with her […]

Comments

Celeste wrote:

That was excellent, Latoya. I really loved how you broke down the reason(s) for all the anger surrounding this particular type of pairing. It’s the reasons *why* someone has a preference for a certain race outside of their own that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I think that’s why you don’t see a whole lot of socializing between Black/white couples of different gender composition. Their reasons for being their respective relationships too often differ, or at least there’s the expectation that there will be hostility.
I’m a bit of a hardliner but IMO, if someone *exclusively* dates outside of their race (or even worse, just one particular race outside of their race) despite the presence of similarly socioeconomic backgrounded members of their own race then there’s probably some kind of fetish or otherwise biased thinking at play (with rare exception).

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:33 am ¶
Tim wrote:

I guess I’m curious to hear more about your “insistence on dating within the race,” i.e., yourself as a black woman presumably dating only black men (or men of color). It seems like this is framed as a triangle of black man - white woman - black woman, with all the attendant history, hurts, assumptions, complications of that triangle. And that makes sense as a starting point given this particular situation (and your own particular triangle w/ Best Boy and his ultrawhite girlfriends).

But obviously there are all sorts of additional permutations here — the black man - black woman - latina woman is one that’s alluded to, and the black man - black woman - white man is another that’s unstated (maybe with white woman as the fourth leg of that shaky table). There’s also colorism in all its varieties, the specific sexualization of different ethnic groups. If your friend dated only light-skinned black, latina, or east or south asian women, I suspect that you might still have a problem with that, even if it didn’t correspond to the specific relations you find here. And if you have precommitted yourself to dating only within the black or brown communities, that complicates things further, since clearly part of the issue here is your perception of black women being treated as not desirable enough — particularly by black men, but also possibly by white men or other shades of the spectrum.

I guess what I’m interested in are those nuances — even if you’re experiencing it as stark, fixed, polarized.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:33 am ¶
Mike wrote:

My male friends seem to have received their imprinting on what is attractive when they are young. As adults, that imprinting is quite hard to modify and only gets modified through active struggle. As such, it is important to control the messages sent to the young.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:40 am ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:

Sounds like Bestboy will either change and find someone or not change and remain alone. If it’s the latter, you can remind him of this posting in a decade or two or three. “I’m so sorry (you didn’t listen to me),” you’ll say sympathetically.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:42 am ¶
Eric Grant wrote:

I admire the ways you are poking around at the various sides of this broader topic, from your one specific relationship with a friend.

I know that for my many female friends from high school and college (most of whom are white, as am I) I felt a particularly intense urge to judge their dating choices. I resisted it, I’m over it, it was all long ago, etc.

So, I have a question that I didn’t see addressed in the initial post:

Did you ever have a crush on your friend, way way back, or vice versa? Do you think you have any kind of residual feeling of romantic possessiveness that makes your feelings more intense in this specific case?

(I am curious, trying to get the full picture–I’m not just phrasing a pop-psych “diagnosis” in the form of a question).

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:43 am ¶
R. Prince wrote:

Great post. That is the exact same issue I have with a good number of people, not just black men, who date inter-racially. It irks me to find out that they are in search of some kind of stereotype in that person of a different race instead of love, then they wonder why they are unhappy. I keep thinking we may never see an end to stereotyping and discrimination if even the people who are in these inter-racial relationships are themselves adhering to them…you think they wouldn’t but it’s disappointing to find out that they do.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:44 am ¶
cosmicsistren wrote:

Loved this piece!! When I was younger I used to get angry when I would see a black guy with a white woman. Now that I am older I realize that meeting someone that isn’t on some bullshit is so hard to find. If you find love in someone of a different race than more power to you. I don’t even look twice anymore. Lately I have started to expand my own horizons because I really don’t feel that I should only date black men. I find that Indian men and Asian men (Dao-Yi Chow!!!) are quite handsome!!!

Your friend clearly has issues that he is not willing to face. If he wants to just date white chicks then fine. They can have him because he doesn’t sound like he is a good catch anyway (no offense).

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:45 am ¶
truthpoet wrote:

This was a great post. Its funny, when I was starting college, I believed that love had no color. I was also expecting to finally find my “ideal black man” and I found him, but he wasn’t checking for me. After the first black black guy, I saw perpetually dating white women, I was fine. I was even okay after the 10th, but after the 30th on a campus with only 6% black (people) I became devastated. I have as a black studies major and an academic who studies images of black women in media, I have had many conversations in which I have had to explain, that the reason why it is so hard for black women to see black men perpetually dating white women is because it is a reminder that on many levels, for us, “true” beauty is unattainable. So thank you for putting it so eloquently and it is my hope that people will understand that it is pain that we feel not malice.

However, in an effort towards thinking about solutions, I will leave you with this quote from Toni Morrison:
“The concept of physical beauty as a virtue is one of the dumbest, most pernicious and destructive ideas of the western world, and we should have nothing to do with it.” Black is Beautiful is a “white idea turned inside out…Concentrating on whether we are beautiful is a way of measuring worth that is wholly trivial and wholly white and preoccupation with it is an irrevocable slavery of the senses.” However much beauty matters to white people “it never stopped them from annihilating anybody.”
Perhaps if we could somehow stop focusing on “white” beauty as a virtue, we could avoid this pain altogether. I realize this is centuries of undoing, but I think it is worth a try. . .

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:50 am ¶
Eva wrote:

I do see your point, but I’ve met men who can’t stand short women, I’m 5′2″ and will never be tall, that mean’s he’s not the man for me. As I once heard, “if the train doesn’t stop at your station it’s not your train.”

I’m 48 years old and right now I want a man who doesn’t mind holding my hair back when I’m throwing up after getting food poisoning yet again is fine with me. (I’ve had food poisoning about four times in the past four years) I want a man who doesn’t mind going with me to the ER, a man who stays with me while I’m having a surgical prodecure and takes me home. If that man is black, fine, if he’s another race that’s fine too.

The truth is we’re all going to get old and stuff like race doesn’t mean jack when you’re sick. There are many things to be angry about, but who someone decides to date isn’t one of them for me anymore.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:51 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:

Bestboy (hereafter BB) dates these girls because they allow him to do whatever he wants to them? In that case, BB sounds really immature! Maybe he’ll grow up when he hits his 30s. As for his dating white girls: Is it purely a physical thing? Rebellion, perhaps? Is he trying to get back at someone? He might also be going for a “type” that isn’t generally found in other ethnicities. For a long time, I liked very preppy guys who went to specific schools and had specific interests. These guys are mostly white and some are Hong Kong Chinese. I still kind of prefer this type, though current BF is not all that preppy. Basically, if I were to go along with my “type,” all the men I date “out” would be white.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:52 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

I always feel sick deep down whenever I see dark skinned men dating white women, but especially that type of white woman that you described.

It just irks me too, LaToya, and I thank you for breaking it down in this amazing essay.

I feel hurt, angry and jealous whenever I hear non-white guys praising white blonde women. It makes me so angry inside, I want to smash bottles and windows.

I don’t want it to bother me, but it just does bother me.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:04 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Celeste - Yes, that is why his transition rings so strange to me. It wasn’t like this before, in high school - we fell out of contact for a few years, met up again in college, and now things are this way. I am not sure what happened in the interim - he gave me an abbreviated version of what happened. But something flipped the switch from “everyone” to “white, thin, blond, busty.”

@Tim - I need to address your comment separately.

@Mike - good point about imprinting, and understanding what is “acceptable” to desire. We should really explore that. I’ll make a note of it.

@Rob - You know! Obviously, whatever you’re doing isn’t working…

@Eric - Good question. Funnily, the answer is no. It’s a complex thing wrapped up into the answer I need to give Tim, but there was never anything like that between us. I believe it is one of the reasons that we are still friends (most of the girls I knew then had some kind of sexual contact with him in college that ended badly). There’s always that “what - if” thing, but even that got laid to rest a couple years back.

We were both single, both horny, and both drunk. We ended up in the same bed - only thing that happened was him farting. Clear enough for me.

@R. Prince - Exactly. It is almost as if he is trying to pursue the embodiment of white womanhood as presented by pop culture.

@Comicsistren - None taken. I don’t know what the fuck happens to him in a relationship, he’s all over the map - angry, distant, then loving and waiting to get his heart stomped on. It makes for odd conversations, I tell you.

@Truthpoet - I feel you. And part of it, I think, is widening the beauty standard so that the ideal woman could be a range of things. And yes, it is hard to keep these kinds of thoughts in check when that kind of dynamic is in your face.

@Cynthia - Yep, immaturity is a big one in this as well. And I would agree, his type is strong. I know who is going to turn his head at about 50 paces, though he occasionally shocks me by pointing someone else out.

@Eva - I see your point, but you have made the same comment on every single interracial dating post. On an individual level, you have to do what is best for you. I don’t think anyone will argue that. But there are issues at a societal level that influence how we as individuals relate to each other - and those need to be dealt with.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:15 am ¶
Ron wrote:

As a black man, I have literally thousands of friends who fit Bestboy’s experience. A great majority of these friends and associates grew up victims of colorism and self-hatred.

For example, some dude’s would date latinas, asians, and brunnette whites. The reason being they were attracted to women without broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair. However, most of these dudes still find black women attractive and may date black women on the side.

I have some buddies who will only date white women exclusively whether or not they are actually attractive to them. Some of the white women they date are not usually attractive to white men because of weight or other issues.

I have some buddies who will not date black women based upon control issues. They feel that they can control non-black women easier or that it will be less drama in the relationship.

At one point in my life, I would question their choices but I no longer waste energy trying to probe their choices.

I have noticed that if you live in a certain region of the country or where there are a low rate of black people then finding black on black love can seem nonexistent. Thus, no models or images of black on black love.

Some of my friends suffer from some savior/messiah complex when comes to white women that extends to the realm of relationships. These men consider invovlement with white women as a pancea to a successful relationship.

As they say perception is reality.
The perception becomes reality in these relationships and men live up to these expectations in these relationships.

I could go on forever so I am going to stop.

Note: this is just my limited experience.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:16 am ¶
Shawna wrote:

This is really well written. I can understand your concerns for both your friend and for the overlooked woman of color. I hope that Bestboy discovers what it is he wants from a relationship so that he can find a woman who stimulates him both intellectually and sexually, white or otherwise.

I’ve been very interested in this series of posts. As an Arab American distanced from my Arab heritage, I always looked to the darker-skinned Arab male (like my dad), as the ideal mate. Yet my attraction was only to white-skinned, freckled redheads on the far side of geek. Eventually, I married my redhead, but it took several years for me to stop feeling like I’d missed out on something, betrayed myself and my father by marrying a White American man, no matter how kind or smart he was.

I wonder how much of that comes from my father’s response to having given up his home country and marrying my mother when there was another woman who shared his faith and culture waiting there for him. The fact that I know these details of his life (sure, he couldn’t go back bc of war, but the woman waited for him for THREE YEARS after she heard he was married in case the marriage didn’t work out despite that my sister was born) surely had an effect on my ideas about marriage within race, class and culture. I just wonder how those three things were transmuted into a skin color and fluency in Arabic.

Anyway, this post really has me thinking. Maybe I’ll address all this on my baby blog (http://www.ainsliebaby.blogspot.com/).

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:17 am ¶
juju wrote:

Excellent post.

Perhaps Bestboy’s change in dating choices from “bold, intelligent, and interesting” to “bland, wan, boring and uninteresting” is reflective of a deeper change in his personality and value system. Perhaps this is a good part of what is paining you.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:22 am ¶
Lisa wrote:

The porcelain skin thing is what got me. I’m mixed myself, and I’ve dated a decent (although not huge) range of men. I never thought the skin thing bothered me. I thought that I, and the men I was with, were all “above” that kind of thing — “it’s just skin, blah blah blah.” But the last white guy I dated fancied himself some kind of poet. And one day he started talking about the word “pale” and how it was evocative of all things beautiful.

I snapped. I asked him if my lack of “paleness” made me somehow less beautiful. He got defensive and claimed that I was misunderstanding him, that he wasn’t talking about skin tone but about some abstract idea. But that was it, for me. I started to think about how he would tell me that he “didn’t really think of me as black — just as a person” and what that REALLY meant.

There were other issues there, too. Because I was the one who pursued him and not the other way around, I found myself always wondering if he would rather be with some skinny blond with “porcelain skin” — like the girl he dated before me. I was his first non-white partner, and I always felt like a silver medal, or a compromise.

Still, I’m not an advocate of only dating within one’s race. I’m married to a white guy now who loves me, how I am, and who loves black women in general. It’s way different being with someone who is a committed anti-racist than being with someone who considers himself enlightened past the point of race.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:22 am ¶
F wrote:

I agree with Cynthia - I think your best friend needs to grow up a bit. He reminds me of someone I know (a white guy) who *only* dates non-white girls for the shallow sexual traits they allegedly possess (in his mind, at least) - he thinks they’re submissive and exotic. But I hope he can see that not only is he doing something that makes him unhappy and sad, he’s also effectively using these women in a way - he doesn’t like them for them, but for what he thinks they are, and that must deeply hurt them.

I also totally agree about the beauty standards thing. It reminded me somehow of that Vogue India shoot, after it just launched, where they used Gemma Ward as the main model and Bollywood actresses were dotted around like scenery. Gemma Ward is beautiful, but so were the actresses (who are all pale, have straightened hair, green/blue coloured eyes etc anyway), and it seemed to be saying that even in an Indian magazine, they still weren’t beautiful enough. Only a white model was sufficiently beautiful to merit a photoshoot. It was really depressing.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:23 am ¶
Gothic Guera wrote:

Sometimes I wonder I have the same issue as Bestboy, I tend to like the skinny pale intellectuals. (Vampires and nerds). It’s interesting because often who we date (and how we date too) reflect our own values . I find my self attracted to men with dark hair, yet why is it I tend to be flirty and sweet to the blond guys? I recall learning that we tend to date people that we find sexually attractive, but if want to marry or to be in a sererous relationship, then we have to change the pattern we think. Is it me or do most cultures encourage women to be submissive? I recall being told by a friend that, I would have to date outside my race since no “Mexican “guy will stand the fact I’m so “stubborn”.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:27 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Tim -

Whew, good questions. You opened up a whole can of stuff, some of them to be addressed in other posts. The quick and dirty follows.

“insistence on dating within the race,” i.e., yourself as a black woman presumably dating only black men (or men of color).

Yeah, I do. Back in HS I was much more militant about this due to how I was raised and social conditioning. Though there was one clear exceptions - one of my (black) friends called me a racist for not giving some guy the time of day because he was white, and I ended up dating him to prove a point. (I use dating loosely - I was twelve and we were officially “a couple” for three days.) That decision actually came back to bite me in the ass later, when another black man I was interested in dating (at age 16) heard about my 12 year old dalliance and gave me shit about it.

Also, as my politics changed, my preferences did. So coming from a black cultural nationalist framework, the only men I could even perceive as attractive were black men. (At this time, a friend tried to set me up with a really hot Chinese guy, that I turned down because I didn’t see him that way. Every time I look at a yearbook, I kick myself.)

I dated a Dominican dude for a hot second, but that was a different kind of situation.

Later, as I transitioned out of black cultural nationalism into embracing the idea of a global brown, I’ve been able to find men of other races attractive. My politics influence my personal. (That’s another post in itself.)

But I still don’t date white men. To me, that’s the line in the sand that I don’t want to cross. Too much political baggage for me to start unpacking that. I don’t begrudge others, but I think I have a better chance of being in a lesbian relationship than seriously dating a white man. (Two posts on that, one on politics influencing your preferences and one on discovering why white men aren’t attracted to me.)

If your friend dated only light-skinned black, latina, or east or south asian women, I suspect that you might still have a problem with that, even if it didn’t correspond to the specific relations you find here.

Yes, I would, but for different reasons. Same thing with black men who only date light skinned women. (I should ask my boyfriend to guest post - he dates black women of all shades, but was subject to ridicule when he lived in New Orleans for dating anyone considered “too dark.”)

I guess what I’m interested in are those nuances — even if you’re experiencing it as stark, fixed, polarized.

There is a lot of nuance, but it is difficult to find writers on those. I can write about this friend - he’s given me permission and is more amused by online critics than anything else. But I am hesitant to share experiences not my own and those of my friends who aren’t used to being that personal with strangers.

I painted this particular situation as polarized to prove a point, because that’s how this specific thing plays out. Bestboy brought by a mixed girl and I leaped for joy - not just because she was a PoC (and identified that way), but because she was also smart, talented and driven. There are a lot of levels to this one, so it was easier to distill it down just to the racial aspect.

Anything else you want me to elaborate on?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:28 am ¶
Eva wrote:

@Latoya: I do make the same comment because it needs to be said. I think age has a lot to do with this. There are issues on a societal level that should be dealt with. When I was in my 20’s, I dated one white loser after another, (the only good thing was that they were, like me, sober) I was under that silly belief that “it’s different with THEM.” Goodness, was I silly, glad I never married any of them I’d be up a creek today.

Then I realized, I needed to stay away from LOSERS, period and then I learned as my mom always said, if you marry hair, hair is all you’ll get. If BB wants to marry white, white will be all he’ll get.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:29 am ¶
Jasmine wrote:

I love this post…and I was *totally* thinking about Travis and “porcelain skin” as well as “Viva La White Girl” last night. I still like both songs, and despite whatever he claims “Viva La White Girl” *really* means - I can’t help but to be truly rubbed the wrong way by him. Such a good group but both “Cupid’s Chokehold,” as well as the video, and “Viva” turned me off!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:30 am ¶
Gothic Guera wrote:

oops I meant to write “Mexican” guy will stand me, because I’m so stubborn. I should make a t-shirt I’m single, but stubborn! (Hey, I have to find a way to pay for college)

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:31 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

My sister has a thing for white men. She dated a black guy in high school but after that it’s been all tall&white, 2 things that she definetly is not. Our family pretty much just accepted it because thhe guys she dated were educated and generally decent folk. However, the white guy she ended up marrying (and is now divorcing) had not completed college and was an ignorant, unfaithful oaf who resented her siblings because we were much more accomplished than he is. However, when they wanted to get married we all tried to be happy for her even though it gave everyone a sense of impending doom.
I’ve always been told not to bring home anyone else’s trash (I know, not very nice). I think that element is what really bothered everyone. If you’re going to date outside your race, bring home someone worthwhile. If you have to make the decision to be dealing with all sorts of social ills then you might as well be helping out a less-qualified bachelor from our own community. Is that a bit snobby, probably. My stepdad sent me a check once while I was living with my fiancee and he was worried that my fiancee might steal it because he only has a bachelor’s. My now husband and I still laught about that one.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:39 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

regarding Travis and Gym Class Heros, any songs that celebrate white skin and white women are such a huge turn-off, because we’ve been hearing and seeing this racist propaganda over the past +1,000 years through-out society.

how about a song that celebrates black skin and black hair and black eyes?????????????????

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:43 am ¶
Longtime lurker wrote:

Good article Latoya! This struck a bit of a chord with me because I have a brother who this seems to apply to as well. He claims that he looks at all choices but for now is only dating white as that is easier and they fit in as eye candy for his job (it’s a little high powered). I worry though because he has gone through a string of “blonde with no brains” girls and that type is what he constantly points out as hot. It’s also distressing to my other sisters because the message he seems to be sending is he isn’t looking for girls like us even though we’re all bright and beautiful. It’s clear that he’s just not giving black or other minority girls a chance at all. I’ve also had a friend tell me black women were just too much work to date.

I’m not sure what the motivation is other than a superficial desire to walk around with someone who may be considered universally hot. It would bother me less if the women seemed suited to him, but only one of them has and they broke up. It makes me wonder what they find so compelling that they are willing to forgo excitement and intelligence for hair color and boobs. I think its sad and I hope he grows out of it!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:45 am ¶
Niki wrote:

Excellent post! I think maturity (or lack therof) is definitely at play here with Bestboy. Most young guys are very specific about what they want on a very superficial level–a girl who is traditionally “hot” that he can show off to his friends, who doesn’t sweat him, and who can freak the sheets is what constitutes a dream girl for that group. As guys mature, they usually end up wanting women who bring more to the table than just being a living blow-up doll.

Strangely, I was (and still am not) one of thos black women who felt that black men “belonged” to me. I grew up in a two-parent black household and attended mostly black schools until I got to high school, but I was taught to regard people as individuals. So when I got to high school and developed my first big crush on a white guy, I didn’t feel that it was out of line or violating some code. I’ve never given too much thought into trying to dissect the rationales of people who weren’t in my inner circle, so my attitude is basically “do you”.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:47 am ¶
Alfred Lopez wrote:

I can completely relate to your blog. I had a good friend/co-worker that only dated White girls. It was amazing to because Black girls flocked to him, and he would shun them for the “White Prize” as you put it. I broke it down for him the same way you did and he admitted it to a sense. Also the fact he can go what he wants to them for the most part because they are “more submissive” than Black women. I use quotes not to offend anybody.
People do what they do. Your friend dates what seems to be unworthy women. I think it is just a coincidence they are also White. Help him find a better girl, no matter what race. You said you will be happy with whoever he finds love in, but will you?
I am multiracial and I have a similar situation as you. I can only date multiracial women. And it goes to a pride and love for myself issue. I love myself and love my look and so forth. So I think the most attractive women are multiracial, especially of the same mix as me. Maybe your bestboy needs to embrace his blackness a little more and he will automatically find more Black girls he is attracted to.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:54 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@DFP -

I feel hurt, angry and jealous whenever I hear non-white guys praising white blonde women. It makes me so angry inside, I want to smash bottles and windows.

Yes. Like I said, it is the affirmation of this thing you are not, and while you know you shouldn’t have that reaction, you do.

@Ron -

I have some buddies who will only date white women exclusively whether or not they are actually attractive to them. Some of the white women they date are not usually attractive to white men because of weight or other issues.

Yeah, I’ve seen that. I don’t think Bestboy and I would still be friends if he did that - I would lose my shit. I am still pissed at that comment made by Kristie Alley - just disgusted by it. “I’m fat, so I should just date black men.”

Good points, particularly the whole perception is reality bit.

@Shawna - I would hope it comes off well- I sat on this post for six months until I was finally comfortable enough to think about posting it.

Let me know what you post.

@Juju - Yes. He has smart women friends (I am not the only one) but this NEVER translates into the women he dates. I enjoy playing armchair psychologist with his love life - particularly with the ideas of race and the madonna/whore complex - but it does pain me.

@Lisa - Excellent points made, about the whole ideas surrounding that porcelain skin remark and the differences in dating those beyond race vs. anti-racist. If you are interested in sharing your perspective with me, drop me an email.

@F - Yes, my thoughts as well. That’s how I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t just the white thing that was bothering me - it is this weird idea of impressing your desires on someone. Not that this is an issue exclusive to race, but race pulls in this whole other element.

And I tell him to grow up all the time.

@Jasmine - Seriously. I flinch when that part of the song comes on, it gets to me so much. And of course, who offered to loan me their CD? Bestboy.

@Gothic Guera -

Many cultures do encourage submissiveness in women. We should explore that.

I am interested in this part of your comment:

I find my self attracted to men with dark hair, yet why is it I tend to be flirty and sweet to the blond guys?

Bestboy does that too. One time, he was explaining to me in great detail about this beautiful South Asian girl he spotted at a party - but he didn’t even try to approach her. And he’s dated SEA girls before. So…hmm….

And send me a tee, I’ve got a friend who that is perfect for.

@Celeste - Oh yes, the race and class issue in dating. There’s a fault line we haven’t checked on…

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:55 am ¶
Tim wrote:

Very well clarified, LP. There’s a startling symmetry there: your friend (black man) seems to exclusively date (ultra)white women, while you (black woman) could never see yourself dating a white man. Cut-out-and-include (and exclude everyone else) vs. cut-out-and-exclude (including everyone else).

I have to say that the anecdotes that I think are weirdest/most problematic are your “why not a Latina/Indian girl?” interjections. Is it an attempt at a “compromise”? Would this be “more” acceptable than a light-skinned Af-Am woman? Is it that you can sexualize other/exotic brown women in a way that you can’t white men or for that matter white women? (”I think I have a better chance of being in a lesbian relationship than seriously dating a white man.”)

Playing analyst in blog comments is never really a good idea for anybody — but since you’re posting this in part to sort out your own feelings, I want to note what I see in it.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:01 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

There’s some interesting evolutionary biology behind this stuff. Not that it’s primarily biological and “hardwired”, by any means, but it’s there.

Human beings tend to be sexually attracted to people that look like them, but not too much like them. It’s like a circle inside a circle… if you’re in the innermost circle, it’s too much like incest; if you’re outside the outermost, it’s too foreign.

Racial hierarchies (AKA the American caste system) cut across these circles and slice them up even more.

People of color that were raised around white people get a really strange group of sexual messages. White people aren’t experienced as foreign, and people matching their own physical appearance may seem too incestuously close. Sometimes people can consciously flip their own switches, but choose not to; sometimes they try really hard, but can’t.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:05 am ¶
MEG wrote:

I find it intriguing that the stereotype of white women being “submissive, sexually adventurous, and easily controlled.” is the same stereotype that white women have about women of other races.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:05 am ¶
frau sally benz wrote:

I must say that I agree with a lot of the things you’re saying up there, and I feel you on trying to get to the bottom of why certain things bother you.

I suppose my problem comes in when people say they only date people from a specific group, no matter what that group is. I understand the convenience of dating somebody from your own culture, but it doesn’t seem much that much better to me to limit yourself to that than it is to never date anybody from your own culture.

This is particularly personal to me b/c I can’t tell you how many black women I’ve known who “hate” me and my guy b/c I am Latina and he is black and I stole one of their men. I try to hear them out and usually get things like “so many black men are in jail or not good men and you’re taking one of the good ones.” When I finally hit a wall and am at my wit’s end, I usually say something like “well, my options aren’t that much better with Latino men.” Of course, it’s not that simple, but their anger is just so toxic.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:20 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Tim -

while you (black woman) could never see yourself dating a white man. Cut-out-and-include (and exclude everyone else) vs. cut-out-and-exclude (including everyone else).

Good phrasing. That is nice summation of how things go.

I have to say that the anecdotes that I think are weirdest/most problematic are your “why not a Latina/Indian girl?” interjections. Is it an attempt at a “compromise”?

Nah. I probably should have made that clearer - I base my picks on the types of girls he mentions are attractive or who looked like someone he may have dated. It’s not an “if you aren’t going to date a black girl, I guess a Latina/Desi is good enough” thing, but I could see how you would interpret it that way. Like I said, I do believe in global brown solidarity - if he has bought into a white beauty standard, he is missing all the other beauty that we have. (For the record, I do point out black women and East Asian women to him as well - in those two examples, we were at brunch and those were the people rolling by. While we were at Ikea, he pointed out a blond and I pointed out a tall poised looking black girl. The common factor for him is tall, lean/athletic/slightly curvy build, lots of hair (either straight or curly).)

Would this be “more” acceptable than a light-skinned Af-Am woman?

With him, specifically, I want him to stop dating white stereotypes. I don’t care who it is as long as she is not that. Like I said, she could even be white. But more than just that stereotype.

I generally don’t rank black women by color, being targeted for colorism myself. I was raised to believe that black is black - and while I have definitely been challenged on that belief, this is how I approach things.

[To clarify, my parents never made any distinctions about skin color between blacks. My mom is on the lighter end, my dad is on the darker, this was never brought up in my family. When I learned about my blackness from my family, I learned that only self-hating blacks wasted their time on such foolish things. Then, I dated a guy who had absorbed those color struck messages from his grandmother and parents - I’ll blog about that another time. So, while I will occasionally discuss skin privilege and perception, that isn’t really how I dice things up in my mind and I find it kind of strange when I have to do it.]

is it that you can sexualize other/exotic brown women in a way that you can’t white men or for that matter white women? (”I think I have a better chance of being in a lesbian relationship than seriously dating a white man.”)

Specifically in reference to him, no. I can understand and acknowledge that the women he dates are attractive, especially when put against conventional or traditional standards of beauty.

So, I can look at people objectively. For example, another one of my friends specifically dates white foreign men (or black foreign men, she has American issues). The last couple I met were foreign white guys. I can acknowledge that they are attractive, but not feel that attractiveness for myself.

Make sense?

@ DFP -

I can think of a few. Black men do make songs about us. So does Jon B.

@Nikki - I also detect some fear behind the immaturity - if I date a girl who is self-sufficient, she won’t need me; if I date a girl smarter than me, she won’t need me; etc - but that’s a bit far off the race path so I didn’t bring it up.

@Alfred -

Help him find a better girl, no matter what race. You said you will be happy with whoever he finds love in, but will you?

Yeah. Love for my friend trumps my own personal politics, but there is a reason why he keeps coming to me for advice. At the core, I just want him to be happy. And while he is being destructive in his own relationships, he knows that I know him. So, there’s that.

The blackness angle is interesting because he does have a fairly strong sense of self. (His father is also very pro-black.) And the issue isn’t finding black women attractive, because he does - it is who he ultimately chooses to become involved with.

@Longtime Lurker -

It would bother me less if the women seemed suited to him, but only one of them has and they broke up. It makes me wonder what they find so compelling that they are willing to forgo excitement and intelligence for hair color and boobs.

Exactly. The ill fit chafes me too - the white part is the fucked-up-cherry -on-top.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:21 am ¶
Eric Grant wrote:

@ Latoya
This may sound like a pretty stupid hypothetical question–I’m really trying to get at the beauty standards issues–but this will limit my rambling:

Do you think you, and women like you, would feel less anger and irritation about black men, and your friend specifically, dating white women if you knew more white men who dated black women, or if you yourself were (even more) consistently hit on by white men? Or would those factors be largely beside the point?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:26 am ¶
TierList E wrote:

As a person who has befriended black men and women closer to myself I’m surprised I haven’t had a friend like Bestboy yet. There was maybe a couple that didn’t prefer black women but they’d like other non-white races well enough (mainly Asian). My female friends ranged from “nothing but black men” to everything fine; I’m met a few people who probably only dated white (again I can remotely guarantee that) but I’ve never got past acquaintanceship level with them.

On a random IR post I remember someone, I think a WoC, saying that it was more hurtful to hear a white/non-black man saying negative things about black women then when black men do. I realized that was true for me as well. I’m not quite sure why- maybe it’s a pot/kettle effect, or maybe while growing up I was ignored/belittled/ rejected by way more white men than black.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:27 am ¶
Taryne wrote:

Thanks for posting so honestly.

Reading about your BB makes me think about White men who also pursue those waify White women without regard to a meaningful social or emotional connection. My brother, a 26 yr-old White guy, has called me in anguish for years about how this or that gorgeous, big boobed, not-much-else-to-offer women has broken his heart, slept with another guy, doesn’t appreciate him for who he is ect. Because my brother is White, there is less impetus to wonder why these women he is dating are always white. But thinking through your post does make me wonder what has motivated him- the women are always under 5’6’’ as well even though he is 6’4”, taller women seem too masculine to him…

A group of us from HS went to the same college and I remember myriad conversations with my guy friends who were Thai and Indian about why they couldn’t get the interest they wanted from White girls. This was something that they sought after and pondered quite a bit. Even then it was clear that they didn’t want just any white girl, they wanted the sparkling “10”, or at least pretty hot with the emphasis on trampy. I was particularly hurt when they would respond to my advice/comments with, “but you’re not a real girl”. I guess I was just one of the guys.

This takes things a bit off topic, because I had previously thought about young American guys of various backgrounds aiming for what our society presents as the ultimate in beauty. But you make a fantastic point in that as a White woman, I can sigh and say “whatever, I’m not the type to go to the gym and spend that much time on my self”-as if doing so could propel me to the top But WoC do get a different message- that they need not apply.

I have also wondered if my HS/College buddies were coming from a perspective of children of immigrants, and as such were searching for they way to fit in as Americans, which often gets translated into being White. Is there something else about himself that your BB is working out? Is it the convention of beauty standards? Either of these do come down to how we as a larger society prescribe beauty and worthiness/mainstream-ness/American-ness.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:45 am ¶
Miz JJ wrote:

I know and have been friends with a few guys like BB. I attempt to have minimal contact with them because I find it distubing and bad for my own mental health. However, there are a few things I find interesting about men like BB. Usually the women they select (men like BB) have no interest in black people, or black culture. They rarely have any non-white friends. Men like BB usually get emeshed in their lives and that’s it they’re gone. Except when they want to experience black culture (concert, cookout etc). Then it’s time to call up your black friends and hang out. Never with the girlfriend though. If she does come she has screwface and whispers a lot to the dude. Of course they leave early. All that to say I am not into being someone’s cultural girlfriend. I am not into diagnosing your pathology. Hire a psychologist to find out why you are attracted to women who secretly (or not so secretly) dislike people who look like you. I can not coddle you and listen to you say it’s just love, or that you can’t help who you are attracted too. That’s fine, but I can help how I spend time and it can not be around someone who rejects black people either through dating, or by dating someone who is racially insensitive. For me that is not healthy.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:05 pm ¶
Darcy wrote:

I still have not completely figured it out for myself where this conversation falls in the interracial dating topic, in my opinion. I saw it hinted at a little bit in Latoya’s post, that there are obviously interracial relationships out there that have occurred NOT because one or both persons fetishize the race of the other person. This post seemed mostly about race fetish, about glorifying one race in dating and overlooking all others. Latoya seems to have several problems with Bestboy’s current dating habits (dating a woman for two years only because she cooked at him and was adventurous in the bedroom, for example), and these habits do not strictly fall in the realm of interracial dating. I think a clear distinction should be made between interracial dating that occurs because the person will only date other persons of a certain race (which is not their own) and interracial dating that occurs like any other form of dating, where two people are interested in each other and they happened to be of different races.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:15 pm ¶
untitleme wrote:

@LaToya
~But with this friend, I do know the history. I’ve been there. And as he frequently asks for dating advice, I frequently comment.*

Here’s what I don’t get, WHY is he asking YOU for dating advice? Are you supposed to be the sympathetic best black friend we see in most of the movies and TV today ..(if we see that at all)? It sounds like you’re supposed to ease him thru all the heartache he’s getting thru these women and even if they weren’t all white, I’d still ask the same question…

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:28 pm ¶
frau sally benz wrote:

I agree with Darcy. I think the race fetish discussion is related to, but separate from, the interracial dating discussion.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:30 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Darcy/frau sally benz -

So, let me ask you this: how many people do you think would actively admit to being in an interracial relationship because they fetishize their partner?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:33 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@untitle me -

Because I’ve been his best friend for about a decade. And I generally have pretty good luck with dating, outside of one pretty big mistake.

And sharing heartache is part of a friendship. He’s there for me as well and was there when I needed him most.

@ MizJJ -

Never with the girlfriend though. If she does come she has screwface and whispers a lot to the dude. Of course they leave early.

You just described the closet racist. The other white girls didn’t behave that way.

@Taryne -

Good post. It is very true what you say about seeing parallels within other relationships and beauty standards. And you raise a good point - is it proving some kind of point when you can net the “quintessential American” boy/girl?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
Binnie wrote:

@ Jasmine

I’m not alone! I want to like Travis from Gym Class Heroes but the video for “Cupid’s Chokehold” turned me off. I showed it to my bf (who’s white) and he noticed how his girlfriends all got progressively lighter in the video… I just like the cupids.

@ Latoya

This post is great! You don’t sound like a jerk. You sound concerned and candid. I learned so much when I clicked the links you mentioned too.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:50 pm ¶
Darcy wrote:

@ Latoya: I agree with your implied statement; I cannot imagine very many people admitting to this. But, I do not think that this disproves my statement. For example, I HAVE come across white men who have admitted to having Asian fetishes. But conversely, I have seen my group of friends go through dating cycles, and most of them have not stuck to dating within one race, whether it is there own or another (and when I refer to “my friends” I am not referring to one race, either). I am white and my boyfriend is black, from Africa. We met in college, were friends for six months before we started dating and have been in a committed relationship for a year. Before him I had dated men who were Asian, white and Latino. Before me he had dated women who were black, Asian and Latina. I use my own relationship because it is the one that I know best, but my friends’ relationships are similar. I give this as an example for my point, which is, despite most people with race fetishes not being able to admit to them, there should be a distinction between that and interracial dating that occurs as naturally as any other form of dating.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 12:51 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

@atlasian

*sigh* Honestly I really nothing to say about really- it’s just that explanations like that makes me nervous. You may well be right-I’ve heard it before, I just hope you’re not.

I personally can’t attest to that theory, but that means next to squat because physical attraction in general ends up in the back seat sometimes with my crushes. And who I find physically attractive at first glance jumps all over that place. But, well, everytime I’ve heard something about evolutionary psychology involving sexual behavior it seems targeted against WoC, black women in particular, and protecting the status quo.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:02 pm ¶
Nikita wrote:

Thank you. Bravo.

It is funny to me when folks criticize minorities for saying that they enjoy dating their own. Most folks do. As I explained patiently to an associate, most of the folks that I know that are married inter-racially did not go looking for it, it - love - found them and the person happened to be white, Latino, Indian, Native American etc. Their love was not based on the stereotypes, it fought around them, endured and turned into something beautiful that you cannot help but admire.

Again, thank you for attempting to explain to the rest of the world why we women of color, and specifically for me BLACK women may look and suck our teeth… at times.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:04 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Darcy -

No, I disagree. That puts interracial dating into a binary where “fetish dating” becomes the bad and “normal dating” becomes the good. But the issues are far more complicated than that - it is not as simple as saying “oh, what I do is good because I love my person and what they do is bad because they objectify.”

Like most things in life, interracial dating happens because of a mix of factors.

What influences who we find attractive? Who is considered acceptable to date? When we say date the rainbow, does that mean that you’ve dated one person of every ethnicity to prove your commitment to diversity? What role does your socialization play in deciding who is acceptable to sleep with, who is acceptable to date, and who is acceptable to marry? And how do race (and class) factor into that role? How do you deal with these messages in the online dating realm, where most open minded people will show dating preferences as a/l/w…with something conspicuously missing?

(See Wendi’s post on CL Personals)

And even with “fetish” dating, I would have to ask is it really such a terrible thing? How many people do we know that wouldn’t be here if their parents weren’t exoticizing someone?

Or, perhaps, it is one partner in a relationship keeping their preferences quiet. I know men who didn’t want to admit to their current GFs that they were just one of a long line of Asian girls. He knew what that would sound like. And he honestly didn’t think of it in a fetishized way, just that he finds Asian women immensely attractive. There is no obligation for the women to do anything but fit his standard of beauty - which happens to align with East Asian characteristics. Is that a problem?

Or how does one measure the differences between motives and results? If an Asian girl wants to date her ideal white man, and finds a white man with an Asian fetish, if both principals in the relationship are happy, does it matter?

[This is what made it easier to discuss my friends situation. This post would not have appeared if his relationships had ended for nonracialized reasons, or if he did not have a background of dating a diverse group of women or if he did not continue to end up with one type of woman. But because racial factors were present, it involves more analysis.]

Alex Alvarez posted on her happy interracial relationship a while back, if that is what you are looking for. But when we discuss interracial dating, we are going to probe a lot of angles.

And we are staying in the gray area.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:04 pm ¶
Darcy wrote:

@Latoya: One thing that I want to add, and something I should have said from the beginning, is that I commend you for writing this post. Like your other posts, it is well-written, thought-provoking and interesting. The subject I brought up was one of the major thoughts that first came to mind after I read it, which is why I jumped to that.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:04 pm ¶
Darcy wrote:

@Latoya: All good points. And believe me, I did not bring up my personal example as a, “See! Look how happy we are! There go your theories out the window!” The subject I brought up was triggered in my mind from the beginning of your post, from two points: the header and the first line, “My best friend dates white girls.” This confused me, and it was only until reading through your post that I realized the statement was closer to, “My best friend only dates white girls, skinny, large-chested white girls who are generally vapid and painfully boring.” Yes, I see these two statements as being different. As in my last comment, I commend your post as a whole, I just found that this first sentence did not do the rest of your post justice.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:12 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:

This whole issue is just so deep and broad. Every race could come up with a similar type post and come at from a million different perspectives.

I grew up dating only white women. As a white guy in a white area, it was just how things were.

There were not too many WoC for me to be interested in the schools I attended or around my neighborhood.

When I got older and traveled more outside of my normal sphere this changed and I felt myself being attracted to women of colour.

I never dated a WoC, but I did end up marrying one. For me religion became a driving factor, and being a convert to Islam, most of my choices for a spouse were going to always be a WoC, even with all of the cultural issues and family issues that might have caused.

The women I find attractive now are almost always WoC, usually darker. My wife has become an expert at picking out and pointing out women she think’s I’d like.

She never thought about marrying a white guy. She always wanted to marry a Palestinian, because amoungst Arabs they are often thought of as being the biggest, most fit. Because of the religion issue, she couldnt date and marrying a white guy was out of bounds, unless she met a white Muslim. There arent many of us out there.

Then she met me and it really threw her for a loop. She had just never, ever considered the idea or even thought about it.

Me, I was looking for a lady who knew the religion well and spoke Arabic. That could have included anyone from areas of Africa to the Middle East and Desi girls raised in the Middle East.

I think for almost every story told about this subject there will be a unique perpective and angle from it. Almost like a finger print in that no two perspectives and experiences are going to be the same.

@Latoya,

The post was honest. That is what is lacking SO much in a lot of what I read on-line. You didnt pull any punches…………I’ve got to love that!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:16 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Darcy -

That is intentional because that is how most of us think about it. It’s kind of like when someone says “I hate white people” when it’s really “I hate white privilege.”

The phrase “dating a white girl” has kind of become a catchall for all kinds of stereotypes and attributes about a certain relationship. And so by starting the piece this way, and then walking you through my own thought process, we realize that things are rarely as they seem on their face.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:17 pm ¶
coco wrote:

i don’t mind interracial dating. when i see i-r couples, i try to feel the sistergirlfriend rage, but it doesn’t really bother me.

however, i think exclusively dating white women is a troubling mindset that can affect men of every race, and that if you live/work and socialize, or are educated, in a predominately white environment, you can fall into that way of thinking.

in my experience, preppy and suburban types are notorious for this. I blame the vacuous images of preppy life in fashion, courtesy of designers like Abercrombie & Fitch and Ralph Lauren. They give little to no imaginative space to women of color.

i think it also has to do with being in classes where, somehow, all but 3-4 black students have been strained out, like the honors / AP classes in my Cleveland (East side) suburb. There, the school was 60:40 (black/white) but the college prep track was 10:90 (black/white).

Not being able to see women of color as viable partners in situations like that is a combination of a lack of discernment and a lack of choices.

this is mindset is reproduced in Harold and Kumar go to Guantanamo. it’s a movie starring two men of color, but where are the sistas? (as in theirs– or anybody’s — WOC girlfriends)?

(… i’d even settle for seeing their real sisters).

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:26 pm ¶
Darcy wrote:

@Latoya: Agreed. And I can understand why you chose to start your post with that, even just from a good-journalism standpoint.

As for my stance, the basis was that the “interracial relationships” topic in itself has many subtopics. I note that you mentioned being aware of other interracial relationships that you did not feel the same way about (as BestBoy and his relationships). From my standpoint and my background, I wanted to be a part of the conversation by adding to that point.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:26 pm ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

Do you think you, and women like you, would feel less anger and irritation about black men, and your friend specifically, dating white women if you knew more white men who dated black women, or if you yourself were (even more) consistently hit on by white men? Or would those factors be largely beside the point?

That’s NOT really the point here. The fact is that white women has always been celebrated, praised and desired for thousands of years all over the world, while darker women have been pushed over, ignored, and ridiculed.

LaToya is saying that it hurts to see a black man, her own best friend, is interested in white women and not so with non-white women. She does not have a problem with black men dating white women in general, but what’s the issue here, is a black man who ONLY dates white women.

It hurts me, too, because it forcibly reminded me of my childhood traumatic feelings when I felt that I was ugly and undesirable as a dark skinned child in school when there were other white, blonde, redhead, brunette girls in my classes who were always fawned over by teachers and parents. Or, in addition to that, white women in movies, magazines and on TV, who were fawned over and desired, too.

Black men and men of colour who fawn over white women while ignoring women of color, are NOT any better than these assholes.

It has NOTHING to do with being desired by white men!!!!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:27 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Abu -

When I got older and traveled more outside of my normal sphere this changed and I felt myself being attracted to women of colour.

Interesting point about spheres of influence. Many times people do not feel the need to question their dating choices until they are in other areas. (It makes me wonder about expats who only date other expats and never hit locals.)

Your comment also reminded me of something an old boss said to me. (He didn’t say this in a pervy way.) He was a man from Australia who was very attracted to black women because he had never seen us before. (He did not count aboriginals.)

See that one is strange to me - is he fetishizing black women or exploring something new? (Hmm, I should also ask Phillip Arthur Moore to contribute on this? He is currently an ex-pat…)

And the religious angle is really interesting. I have heard some of the issues discussed specifically from a black muslim perspective , but never from that point of view.

I think for almost every story told about this subject there will be a unique perpective and angle from it. Almost like a finger print in that no two perspectives and experiences are going to be the same.

Yes, I agree. That is why we are going to take a long time to discuss these issues - everytime we cover something, two more ideas pop up. But I feel like these kind of conversations are not happening, so we will keep hosting them.

The only real issue is striking a balance between honesty and respect for the experiences of others.

@DFP - Thanks. I am trying to think of another way to articulate this, but the increased affection of white men does not really factor.

@Eric - I am trying to find a good example of why this is, and I think the answer is in Joan Morgan’s writing. I’ll get back to you when I get home.

@Darcy - Gotcha. I’ll make a note to ask some of my friends if it is okay to write about their experiences. One of my friends has a really interesting twist - she dates interracially, but only people who are not American in origin. She was raised here, but thinks our race issues are so fucked up to the point where she can’t feel comfortable dating an American.

@Coco -

They give little to no imaginative space to women of color.

Good phrase.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:41 pm ¶
WestIndianArchie wrote:

If you’re so concerned about him dating snow flakes, how come you didn’t “bite the bullet”?

Is there more to this story?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:42 pm ¶
Jennifer wrote:

This was a very, very well-written post. I commend you for writing on this topic because it is a beyond touchy one, especially for black women if we are honest enough to admit it. I have had plenty of male friends like yours, who have been intelligent, open-minded and even critical of white supremacy but when it came to their dating preferences, they could give Adolf Hitler a run for his money. Or my other favorite, the black men who would date anything and everything BUT a black woman, or they would date a black woman but she had better not look like she could never be mistaken for anything but black. When you see these attitudes taken by black men and in a lot of men in general, it is disturbing. I think, and you touched on this in your post, the trouble is with this notion of blackness as being the epitome of what is undesirable and whiteness (especially THAT kind of whiteness) as being the ideal and all that is WORTH having. I am not surprised that he has dated and does consider all types of women attractive, as many men do. However, what he chooses to date and one day hope to marry (and what will basically be on his arm) as is the case with many men in this country, that type of white woman is what is worth having. I think that is what makes my blood boil. I have been hit on and approached by all types of men but at the end of the day, I knew, and those men knew too (except in the case of a lot of black men that I love dearly and primarily associate with) the women who were worth HAVING where WHITE or certainly not black. Like one poster said earlier, a glorified silver medal. That being said, I don’t think that you can make someone turn off a preference that they have apparently honed for years. And I would really be cautious about advising him to get with someone of color if he doesn’t work out his issues thoroughly or that poor girl is gonna go through hell. I’m going to be honest. I probably wouldn’t date him if I knew all he dated were white women before me because every time I saw a blonde I would be looking over my shoulder and giving him the side eye and probably counting down until the time he left me for a girl like he was used to before. I have to say again that this was a great post and in response to one of the other posts, I think is was eric grant’s (?) about whether black women would be less incensed if white men dated, excuse me OPENLY dated and approached black women: Here’s the thing. It’s all connected meaning that if white women are held up as the standard, white men are not going to chase down the complete opposite. White people, I have observed and not all but in MANY MANY cases, have been the main ones pushing white supremacy…even when they don’t realize it. Case in point (just a little story then I’m out)….I had a good friend in grad school who dated nothing but black men. And not just any black guys either, Black athletes, primarily basketball and football players with the occasional track runner included. She was a good looking girl but she was definitely not the white standard of beauty (curvy body, curly brown hair, Italian). Anyway, at first her dating patterns bothered me because of some of the comments she made about black men being “better” than white men and the fact that all of these guys were athletes also sent up a red flag but I figured I needed to get over my issues and what she did was her business. She would always come to me describing what guy had hit on her (they were always black and almost always an athlete) and tell me about how they thought she was so fine and sexy and describe all of the intimate details of their sex lives. Now I listened cause she was my friend and this is for the most part what I would do in any situation with any other friend. Fast forward to about almost a year into our friendship. She and I are hanging out with some of her friends and co-workers, who are for the most part white, and one of her male co-workers (also white) is coming at me hard. We flirt and later hook up. No big deal, nothing she herself hasn’t done right? So when I tell her about the what happened like she has done with me about a million times before with other black guys she has hooked up with, she gives me the blank stare. Noticing her disinterest I just shrug it off and stop talking about it. Then she asks me if I want to see pictures of the guy’s ex-fiance. To which I reply, “Not really” because what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? Well she does it anyway and low and behold, what does the girl look like? You guessed it….anyway she goes on and on about how attractive and hot this girl is and proceeds to show me picture after picture of said ex-fiance and a bad taste develops in my mouth. And I start to come to some realizations about my friend and how she sees me, herself, and the black guys she “supposedly finds attractive.” Let’s just say I never looked at people’s motives for dating or associating interacially the same again.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@WestIndianArchie -

LOL!

1. Watch the snowflakes remarks.

2. Because we didn’t have that kind of chemistry. He’s a great friend, we have a lot in common, but see my comment #12 to Eric.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:47 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

LaToya, this is a thought-provoking post, and I enjoyed reading it. I’m also enjoying following the discussion in the comments. This is why I love Racialicious - lots and lots of things to chew on!

I’m going to say, with this comment, my white privilege will be showing (rather like my petticoat I suppose). Once upon a time, I was trophy material. Not blonde or busty, but a slender, conventionally pretty, white woman. I’d get the trophy-hunters of all races. And while there’s a lot of privilege afoot here, of being considered attractive and a “prize” in society’s eyes - it made me cynical about men and dating. A man who dates you as a trophy isn’t valuing you as a human being. A real relationship isn’t based around looks or sexual attraction. It’s based upon friendship and a spiritual connection.

The men who dated me as a trophy soon found out that I am NOT submissive, I am NOT freaky and up for anything, I’m NOT gonna give you a BJ in your car on the freeway, I’m NOT gonna simper by your side at company parties. (I do cook. But I cook because I like to eat good food, not because it will catch me a may-un.)

Now I’m pushing 40 uphill and backwards, a cancer survivor, scarred and overweight and no longer such a trophy. Would any of my trophy-hunting boyfriends of days gone by have stuck by my side through chemo and surgery and all that fun stuff? Hah. I’d have been dumped in a hot minute for someone less trouble. Trophy-hunters don’t want relationships. They want an animated blow-up doll.

If there’s an upside to losing my youthful good looks - it weeds out the jerks. If a man is interested in me, I know he’s there for ME and not for a prize.

And I realize that, because I’m white, I had this opportunity (or something!) to be a “prize” for a little while. Most WoC do not. So I can understand the anger at seeing a desirable black man with a white woman. What does SHE have that I do not?

I’ve dated IR. I’ve also dated many white guys. I tend to prefer skinny dark-haired men with little wire-framed glasses, so it winds up being mostly white and Asian guys. But if I click on a spiritual level with a man - and he likes cats!!! - it doesn’t really matter what he looks like. I had a massive crush on this overweight Latino man because he was very nice and funny. My take on IR dating is, do you see the RACE or the PERSON? Would you love Joe or Bob or Sam if he was white? or black? or any other race?

“Best Boy,” btw, is dooming himself to a life of loneliness and frustration if he doesn’t grow the heck up. But you know that. And no-one can change him but him.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:51 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

@TierListE, I know exactly what you mean… last week I was in a fracas on the alternate side, arguing against biological determinism. However, saying that evolutionary psychology is one factor (among many) is not the same thing as saying it’s the only factor, or that it’s the dominant factor. I do agree that it can be a slippery slope.

Saying something “is biological” shouldn’t be used as an kind of excuse or rationalization for nasty social structures. It’s ultimately so broad of a statement as to be meaningless. The fact that we exist at all “is biological”.

Our biology controls us… but in essentially culturally-neutral ways. Then culture layers on top of that, assigns values, and feeds back into it, even altering biology and forming a messy feedback loop. Some of the most fascinating ideas I’ve ever encountered refuse to use biological explanations for status quo or racist/sexist purposes, and in fact illuminate how the status quo is itself constructed through mystification…. e.g. Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man” or Jared Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel.”

One of the strangest phenomena I’ve heard about recently is GSA or Genetic Sexual Attraction. When unrelated children are raised together, they develop an incest taboo; conversely, when closely related children are raised apart, sometimes the opposite happens.

I won’t take the thread any more off-topic in this direction, I’ll just note that race is a concept that often overlaps with the concept of “greater family”… the overlap also depends on varying cultural assumptions about what “race” and “family” mean, anyway.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:53 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Jennifer -

Good comments.

I think, and you touched on this in your post, the trouble is with this notion of blackness as being the epitome of what is undesirable and whiteness (especially THAT kind of whiteness) as being the ideal and all that is WORTH having.

Yes. Don’t even get me started on trying to challenge your own bigoted notions when you have a stereotype all in your face, knocking back shots…

I do want to mention though that BestBoy’s dating white women is a new thing. Which is why it was so vexing. Because of who I was ten years ago, if he had been solely dating white girls then, I would have viewed him with contempt for being a sell out. We would not be friends today. But he didn’t. And things we based before on personality, then look, and he seemed to enjoy dating a lot of different women. There was almost no rhyme or reason to his choices.

And today, the hesitation with WoC makes me wonder as well. Now, I’ve seen him at bars where white women have *literally* jumped on his back to get his attention while black women (or other WoC) scarcely give him a glance. So it is a lack of confidence from something?

I don’t know. But that needs to be emphasized.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 1:57 pm ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

OMG. I thought I was the only one who noticed that Porcelain skin line in the GCH song….Or the video that went through the stereotypical ‘take-no-crap, hairbraiding black chick’ to the ’sexy but unfaithfu’l Latina and finally ended in the perfect White gf.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:00 pm ¶
Dan wrote:

I’m trying to feel you but I just can’t.

It seems that you’re trying to make up BB’s mind for him and are pushing or guilting him into dating black women.

Did it ever dawn on you that he may simply prefer white women (much like you obviously prefer black men) but is just picking the wrong ones?

Why are you insistent that the right woman for BB will only be found when he makes more of an effort to date black?

The first 2/3 of your post are examples of how images, words, anything referencing black men dating white women actually causes you physical discomfort, and then you expect the reader to believe that in a moment of clarity, all of your distaste for black men dating white women disappeared when you thought it was just the type of woman BB dated that bothered you?

Personally, all I really got out of this story was how you are taking BB’s dating preference personally (and ignoring that you yourself have a dating preference) and are feeling personally rejected as a black woman because your friend prefers to date white.

You yourself said that in his dating white women, in terms of looking for love ‘I am afraid he’s looking in the wrong place.’ So now are you saying that white women are not worthy of love?

Signed,
White man married to Black woman.

And yes! I am actually in an interracial relationship that is based on love and common interest rather than novelty! Wow! We do exist!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:01 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

Fantastic article!

I think you hit it on the head when you said it wasn’t the fact that he dated interracially, but the TYPE of girls he dates that set your teeth on edge. Maybe because that says a lot about who he is as a person, and that’s what you’re uncomfortable about?

Somehow, I think if these women were the same in character but they were Black, you would have a lot of the same issues with them; not the obvious “White Trophy Woman” ones, but the “WTF, why are you dating that sot of girls over and over again” type of issues.

So, let me ask you this: how many people do you think would actively admit to being in an interracial relationship because they fetishize their partner?

OMG, you would be surprised, and not in a good way, lol. People will come right on out and tell you “Hey, I’ve always been attracted to [insert race here] men/woman (or the sister comment “I’ve ALWAYS wanted to date a white/black/Asian/whatever race”) and you are SUPER HOT” like that’s supposed to be a compliment or something. Sometimes they will even get into the reasons WHY they feel that way. Not only that, but it works intra-racially as well.

Personally, I find it super creepy but it helps with filtering out the fetishy types from people who are interested in you as a person. ~_^

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:03 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

It seems that you’re trying to make up BB’s mind for him and are pushing or guilting him into dating black women.

That’s interesting, when the women I point out to him in the piece are Latina and Southeast Asian. That’s also interesting considering how I discussed the construction of a white woman stereotype, and how I pondered why I didn’t have this issue when he dated other white women with personalities.

Please go back and reread my piece.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:04 pm ¶
Jennifer wrote:

Do you mean a lack confidence on the part of your friend in approaching women of color or lack of confidence on the part of women of color who do not respond to your friend (or jump across the bar to get next to him)? Because, I hope this doesn’t make anyone cringe, but I can usually tell who likes what and I am pretty sure most women are like that too. That is to say that even if your friend is not wearing the “blondes only” t-shirt, he is still giving off a vibe. I don’t know what it is but I’ve noticed that people generally attract what they like even if they are not putting it out there.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

i’m always amazed how atwitter this topic makes me. and i have been known to joked that i’ve worked my way through the whole UN! i’ve been thinking about the intersections between being a fetish object and interracial dating as it applies to my own history/thinking…

i tend to hang out in places where there are few african-americans at my educational level (high school teacher in the pnw. current academic). as an unambiguously black woman (6′, dark complected, short natural), who dates out i understand where fetishization and concern over i-r overlap. the intersection on the venn diagram is all about intent/internalized messages for me.
we are all conditioned to love and represent ourselves through that love. and who and how we love/sex becomes part of our identity, especially in the commercial culture of the united states. our models for ‘normal’ and ‘acceptable’ are set by the color baby on the congrats card! :0)
it’s a tough wrestle. i personally, never, ever date white guys who exclusively date african-american women - we are interchangeable brown objects, and i won’t allow that. nor do i find that attractive. i know some women who find that certainty of attraction safe and appealing. the difference is intent - and my life/culture/melanin is not an artifact to be collected. conversely, i am also guilty of looking at bm/ww interracial couples when they appear in my peer group. in part because i wonder what their story is, but also because i seldom see middle class folks do it!

i also add to eric - please! i cannot tell you the last time a white man was brave (secure - see my comment above) enough to hit on me! and let me assure you that middle class men have a lot to lose by doing so! i think successful interracial dating identity depends upon a secure ego and sense of self. that is what many have said is missing in the best friend’s dating.

so. another great post that has made me think when i really should be working! thanks.
:0)
-kerrita k.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:10 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kaonashi -

Yep, I would - it just wouldn’t be a racial issue. It would be a “stop dating trifling women!” issue. Which, arguably, it still is. Maybe it’s a “stop being stereotypical and dating trifling women issue.”

@Jennifer - on his part.

And here’s my thing about the signals. Yup, he does give off some with how he dresses (cowboy boots, corduroy blazers, Vans, too tight tees and Aviators are all wardrobe stapes - I say he’s the only hipster in DC).

BUT

That’s not really a hindrance. My friends are into some crazy stuff, and I am always in the thick of unconventional WoCs. I am going to geek out this weekend with five of us down at an anime convention. And we all have friends who are rocker girls, (and one who dresses gothi-loli), vegans, neo-bohemians, whatever you can think of that would be considered outside of the norm - so it’s not necessarily a lack of people like him.

As I said before, I don’t know what it is.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:13 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

or is your friend using his male privilege to gain a submissive partner? which is still kinda gross…

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:15 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

Lauren over at Stereohyped took an approach to this topic that really made me challenge my position and thinking. The question she posited was essentially, “why would you want someone who doesn’t want you?” As I began thinking about that question I wondered what motivated me to fight for the attention of someone who is not interested (without having to guilt themselves into feeling the attraction) in me in the first place. I definitely consider myself “pro Brown” (brown meaning POC). I’m also interested in global Brown/Black awareness but even with that in mind it still doesn’t make sense to put myself through this kind of agony for someone who’s issues with my phenotype and features are probably deeply personal. That seems to be the case Latoya points out with regard to Bestboy. His dating practices seem to be more a reflection of his own mind at work and not any real flaw on the part of the women he’s rejecting. It took a while but I have finally and comfortably come to a place where every black man I pass in the street who is not with a black woman does not feel like a personal afront to me. I guess there are still certain situations where I would question it, especially within certain artists communities or social circles but I’m pretty much over strangers in the street.

@cosmicsistren - SHUT UP about Dao-Yi Chow. That is my MAN! Girl, lord help him if I ever catch his ass in a dark alley! I watched that stupid Sean Jean special that mtv aired like 500 times online just to stare at his beautiful face! That said, let me know if you want to start a D-YC fan club or something because I’m totally down.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:22 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Ali -

I’m pretty much over strangers in the street.

Yup, me too, but this is my homie. Oh, and I shouldn’t have given the impression that he is some perfect angel in a relationship (but most of y’all picked up on that) because he isn’t.

Lauren’s posed question is important because again, on an *individual* level you have to find the person who is right for you. You don’t need to overturn the whole fucked up system, just find the guy who didn’t buy into it. But on a *societal* level, it is important because these patterns keep repeating, generation after generation.

Oh, and you reminded me of something with this line:

I have finally and comfortably come to a place where every black man I pass in the street who is not with a black woman does not feel like a personal afront to me.

It is much easier for me to speak on these issues as a woman in a committed relationship, than as a single black woman. I always find it interesting how in these conversations a lot of credibility is predicated on the writer/speaker’s ability to attract and retain a mate.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:31 pm ¶
Dan wrote:

No need to be condescending LaToya. I read your piece. Please re-read my comment and, if you can, answer the other questions/observations I made.

So yeah, you were pointing out Latinas, Asians, essentially every color other than white to your friend. How is that not prejudice?

I’m going off your own words:

“My best friend dates white girls. It’s still painful for me to type that.”

Why is it still painful? If your problem truly lies in the TYPE of women he dates, why would the mere mention of him dating white girls cause you pain?

“I have to choke back a cutting response about black love being sweetest.”

Another ignorant comment because by your own admission, you’ve only dated within your own race. So how the hell would you know that White/Black love isn’t sweeter? Or Latina/Asian for that matter?

And then, BB has a blowup with a closet racist white girl and you and your boyfriend nod in agreement at the solution to the matter: “Stop dating white girls,”. So in your minds, the behavior of one girl is justification for swearing off a whole race of women. Bigotry.

“Will you cut that out?” he asked with a note of exasperation. “I will when you start dating brown people,” I fired back.

Again, insistence that he stop dating white women. Irrational prejudice.

You even did a little self analysis and understood the root of the problem: “But they are reminders of what I am not, and what I will never be.”

You are taking your friends preference for dating white as a personal rejection and a rejection of brown women.

“We came up short, again. Lost out to a white girl, again.”

Why is it a competition? What did you ‘lose’? As you said, you and BB are just friends so why do you take his preference for dating white women as rejection? As ‘losing out to a white girl’?

“And when I see Bestboy, the question on my mind most often is not why white women, but rather, don’t brown girls deserve love too?”

Why doesn’t BB deserve to love who he wants to love or date who he wants to date?

“Everyone wants to be loved. I’m just worried he’s looking in the wrong place. He’s looking for the woman society holds as beautiful and desirable, the airbrushed and polished trophy, and not the real flesh and blood women that exist in the world.”

So anyone who looks for love in white women is looking in the wrong place?

White women are not real flesh and blood women?

Sorry this just reeks of prejudice. As said here, there is just example after example. In your own words.

It’s like a mantra being repeated every 2-3 paragraphs.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:36 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

See here:

Occasionally, my black woman rage seeps out and I find myself lecturing him. While I am currently on the sidelines of the dating pool, I see my single black female friends who are gorgeous and talented and ambitious and caring and wonderful remain single while my quirky, IBM** on paper best friend brings by white woman after white woman and I just want to know why.

And then it hits me. I don’t really have a problem with him dating white women.

I do have a problem with the specific white women that he is dating.

Here:

In that moment, I could completely understand the teeth sucking that happens, the anger that occurs, why so many black women start getting that familiar pain behind the eyes when they see a white woman and a black man linked romantically. It isn’t just about them, in that specific relationship, at that specific point in time.

It is also what that pairing symbolically represents.

Here:

But as I said before, love does not happen in a vacuum. The influences of societal programming run deep. And when I see Bestboy, the question on my mind most often is not why white women, but rather, don’t brown girls deserve love too?

Why don’t you think you’ll be happy with one of us?

And here:

He’s looking for the woman society holds as beautiful and desirable, the airbrushed and polished trophy, and not the real flesh and blood women that exist in the world.

Women who know who they are. Women of any race.

And I would be happy for him, whoever he finds, of any race, as long as she suits him.

I find it interesting that in 70-odd comments, you are the only person who completely missed the point of the post.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:41 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:

I think those who enter into inter-racial relationships based on stereotypes often learn a quick lesson that stereotypes are made to be broken.

Before my 20’s the only Arab women I had seen were represented by the Western media. When I married one I learned that 99% of what I’d been taught by our media and culture was complete BS.

If someone enters into such a relationship looking for a fetishized stereotype they are going to be sorely disappointed.

There are many different reasons for getting into an inter-racial relationship, but the one thing that gets me mad is when people assume that because you prefer someone of a different race you somehow have an issue with your own race or it is a sign of guilt.

I am a white dude and am fully into my culture and ethnicity. My choice of a partner has to do with what I find attractive in a woman.

Look wise it could be a woman from any race as long as she shares certain physical attributes. Think Penelope Cruz (Spanish) or Salam Hayek (Mexican/Lebanese) or any number of dark hair, dark eyed and dark skinned woman.

Before I lived in DC I had never been around Ethiopians too much. Since moving here I have found them, both men and women, to be a very attractive.

Sure, there are some people who get involved inter-racially for some sort of emotional issues, but I think they are in the minority.

I think those people who play up that issue are pandering to their own issues with teh subject more than anything.

@Shawna,

I cant wait for you to talk about your experience. You know Manal and I are faithful readers. Your experience, like ours, is SO unique and so unusual that Manal and I go out of our way to want to find out more about people who are in our circumstances.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:41 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Abu -

There are many different reasons for getting into an inter-racial relationship, but the one thing that gets me mad is when people assume that because you prefer someone of a different race you somehow have an issue with your own race or it is a sign of guilt.

Please elaborate on this. I have only heard this frustration from the black side of the fence, so I would be interested in hearing how this plays out in other communities.

Particularly the dating interracially out of guilt. What does that mean?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:46 pm ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

@LTP. About WoC who seem not to give BB the time of day
I know personally as a WoC sometimes I walk around ‘looking’ uninterested because I am so darn tired of what seems like inevitable rejection. Of the 1 1/2 Black men that go around in my circles 100% has seemed to be after the White prize so I made a conscious decision not to look and not to care because it was the only way to maintain my sanity. I was never the type to ask ‘Do you date Blk girls?’ I just assume the IBM types dont and keep it moving. Honestly, most times I am just genuinely surprised that some guy of the BB ilk wants to talk to me. Sometimes my friends have to tell me when I am getting hit on. The benefit of that is I am rarely mad or upset by those IR images, I just dont see them. And I never have to deal with another one like my ex (also Black) go on about how un-Black I am.(DAMN I HATE THAT).
Of course I know I am unfairly generalizing too but oh well that is a price I am willing to pay.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:50 pm ¶
Crogirl wrote:

Latoya, great post. I think you verbalized your thoughts and feelings beautifully.

Since everyone else has, I’ll throw my angled perspective into the mix… I am a caucasian woman, and have dated several men of color. Reflecting back, I’m a bit disturbed by how many of those men have, I now believe, dated me simply for the fetish factor. As a matter of fact, I met a black man at a bar recently, who I innocently struck up a conversation with because he looked like he was sad to be there. Anyway, a bit into the conversation, he began telling me how beautiful I was, and how he’s never dated a woman like me before (he couldn’t bring himself to say a white woman… I kept wondering, what kind of woman am I?? lol), and wanting to try. Um, no thanks. I’m not looking to be someone’s science project. Another ex, I am now convinced, had preconceived notions, much like your friend, about “us white girls” being submissive. He learned real quick that this hot-blooded Croatian girl doesn’t play that. (tidbit: Culturally, Croatian women are very strong, opinionated, and although the men are very macho, deep down they know the women run the house and many of them are scared of their wives). He is now married to another white woman, who, from what I understand from friends, IS that submissive white girl whom he can walk all over. Go figure.

The interracial dynamic is interesting. There are so many facets to it; there’s no one answer to how or why anyone behaves a certain way, why they’re attracted to certain people/groups, etc. I just know that in the microcosm in which I live, men of color REPEATEDLY hit on me, whereas white men rarely do, and I can’t for the life of me figure out why. I’ve been rejected by my own “kind” more times than I can count, and if I waited for my white prince, I may never have a relationship again! And interestingly enough, I live in a predominantly white town, so it’s not due to the environment in which I live.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:01 pm ¶
Jack D. wrote:

I still haven’t figured out when, where and why the information was encoded that determined the physical attributes of women I find attractive. But I do know it sure as heck wasn’t my family or pop culture subtext. … And I’d be seriously ticked off if someone second-guessed my interests and motivations, racially based or otherwise. That’s a huge insult that should not be repeated between “friends.”

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:11 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Jack D. -

Is it an insult if you requested that friend’s honest opinion?

Like I said, way back up in the beginning of the piece, I generally don’t comment on the relationships of others, mostly because hell - I’m not there. I don’t know anyone’s motivations, or the 5Ws + H.

But for this guy I know.

He asks.

(And he consented to this piece.)

Now, your statement is actually a question of “when the hell is it appropriate to question someone else’s motives in a relationship” the only real answer to that one is if it is (1) *your* partner (as in you are the other half or (2) someone who knows you better than you know yourself.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:16 pm ¶
C-Marsh wrote:

This post made me evaluate how I’m perceived by Black people. As I said before, I’m light-bright-and-almost white and never really fit in with anyone as a youth. I’ve definitely always identified with Black and rejection from my peers only made me more militant in some respects. Despite my militancy in high school, I ended dating and subsequently am engaged to a Filipina. My fiancée is one of the most down people I’ve ever known. She put me on to Tribe, Ghetto Boys, Pharcyde, etc.

I have always thought that we were accepted as a couple, but a recent experience has made me question that acceptance. At my last job, I was in a cohort of young Black employees. We often had discussions about race, politics, and other issues. Then once it came out that my fiancée was not Black, things changed. I thought through our discussions my coworkers would have gained a general sense of my personality and interests, but I guess the fact that my fiancée was not Black trumped all of our previous interactions. During one of our conversations, my interracial relationship became the topic of discussion. After the initial questions about reactions from people and parents I thought we were all on the same page. Then one of them dropped the bomb. “Your girlfriend doesn’t like Black people do she?” That one came out of nowhere and really caught me off guard. Initially, I was so offended by their attack on my fiancée that I didn’t even dissect all of the implications of the statement. I quickly spouted out examples about how “down” she was. I even jokingly made a comment about how she liked Black people more than I did.

Later when I shared the conversation with my fiancée, she looked at me and said “Are they stupid?” Then it hit me. Wait a minute…I’m Black! What the hell were they trying to say about me? That comment not only cast my fiancée as a racist, but delegitimized my explicit identification as a Black man. I felt that it was a rather loaded statement. It seemed like disapproval of an interracial relationship of a Black and a non-black/non-white, but then out of that condemnation sprung a revocation of Blackness. They made me Soledad O’Brien!

This made me wonder how colorism impacts the perception of IRs between Whites and Blacks.

1. Do darker skinned Blacks get reviled for dating Whites and light-skinned Blacks dating Whites get the double whammy: Resentment and Revocation of their Black Card?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:16 pm ¶
RoslynHolcomb wrote:

Interesting commentary LaToya. Even more so than ever I’m convinced that I must’ve received some type of vaccine, because I just don’t give a damn about black men’s (or any men’s) dating choices. I’m married interracially myself, but even when I still dated monoracially I never saw their choices as a rejection of me or women who looked like me. I’ve been a black woman for nearly 44 years, and can honestly say I’ve never sucked my teeth, rolled my eyes, or had any type of profound reaction at seeing a black man with a white woman. (Well except Ice-T and Coco. That whole camel toe thing just skeeves me the hell out, but I think everybody rolls their eyes at them.)

I know black men who think like your friend. I have family members who do, but other than being annoyed when they spout their racist bullshit at me I really don’t care. I guess I figure it’s their own misery and really has nothing to do with me. I’ve got my own issues to deal with and don’t have the time to try to untangle theirs. In your position I’d simply tell your friend to stop discussing his fucked up love life with me. When he decides to grow up and buy a clue he will…or not.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:19 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

@Latoya Peterson - I understand how seeing this behavior in a close friend would be more upsetting than some random dude on the street but personally I’m at a place where I am ready to let that go too. My younger brother is a serial dater of white women and to me it’s obviously a self esteem thing. He won’t even give a cute black girl a second glance but fawns and writes endless pages of sappy poetry over countless less than stellar white girls. It used to bug the shit out of me (especially when my youngest brother started to catch on to it), I wanted to slap the crap out of him. Since then I’ve realized two important things. (1) As a black woman I would never wish a man with the number and intensity of racial and self perception issues my brother has on another black woman. (2) Given the amount of personal shit he needs to work through before he can even hope to see the value of black women he’s just not currently in a place where he can appreciate a woman who looks like mother, and that has to be okay. I don’t think any woman deserves to be with a dude that has such a long way to go before he can fully appreciate her. Black women (hell all women) deserve more than that. I love him and he’s my brother but I really believe he needs to fix a lot of his personal issues before he drags some poor unsuspecting sister down with him.

With respect to Lauren’s question, I see what your saying about making relationships work on a personal level versus correcting a social sickness but I don’t think it’s going to stop. I don’t think Bryant Gumble/Tiger Woods Syndrome is going away any time soon. Personally I think the best way to deal with it is just to expand the definition of what constitutes a black family.

I am curious about this line though:

“It is much easier for me to speak on these issues as a woman in a committed relationship, than as a single black woman. I always find it interesting how in these conversations a lot of credibility is predicated on the writer/speaker’s ability to attract and retain a mate.”

Interesting. Why? Do think my being single diminishes the credibility of my points? If so how and why? Or am I misunderstanding you here?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:24 pm ¶
yorubella wrote:

@JD/J :

I know exactly how you feel! My current boyfriend is a very attractive IBM whom I had a class with, but I never even gave more than a glance at because in my experience “his kind” (upper middle class, preppy) would never even look twice at me or consider me as a romantic partner, or even a hook up.

It turns out he had a crush on me the whole semester, but I wouldn’t even give him the type of day because I assumed he wouldn’t be interested. I am one of those “oreo” Nigerian-American black girls, so this causes me problems because I have a hard time finding black men to date that I have things in common with. After being rejected over and over, you just stop looking certain directions.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:27 pm ¶
RoslynHolcomb wrote:

Oh, and I have to agree with some of Dan’s comments, especially that ‘black love’ comment. Sounds like some of the bullshit I hear from the ever so annoying ’soul patrol.’ I’ve been with my husband for eleven years and defy anyone to find a sweeter love and frankly I think it’s twisted as all hell to try to characterize love by something so as the mythological phenomenon known as race.

IMO, there was quite a few dispersions cast in this thread against interracial relationships vis a vis black men and white women. And don’t even get me started on comparing your dating a white man to dating a woman. I just find it curious that in a post about your friend’s bizarre prejudices you’ve displayed more than a few of your own. Maybe that’s why you have been able to tolerate him for more than a decade.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:32 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@C-Marsh -

They made me Soledad O’Brien! LOL!

Your story reminds me of something Carmen used to say. She calls it “voting with your pussy,” the idea that you have “chosen” your racial identity based solely on who you are currently sleeping with.

And in your case, it’s looks like your coworkers decided your penis has spoken!

But yeah, deconstructing that base assumption is important on many levels.

This made me wonder how colorism impacts the perception of IRs between Whites and Blacks.

That’s a big one. I’ve made a note to come back to it.

@Roslyn -

Even more so than ever I’m convinced that I must’ve received some type of vaccine, because I just don’t give a damn about black men’s (or any men’s) dating choices.

Or maybe you just didn’t get that kind of conditioning. That idea was something I was socialized into - that dating outside of the race was a symptom of self-hatred. It wasn’t until I got a bit older and was around people who were dating outside of their races and challenging this idea did I begin to re-evaluate it. But as you can see it is alive and well.

Well except Ice-T and Coco. LOL!

I know black men who think like your friend. I have family members who do, but other than being annoyed when they spout their racist bullshit at me I really don’t care.

I should be clear, again, I am discussing the racial of this because that is the nature of this site. But if I were to explain the top four issues in his dating life, the racial disparity would be at the bottom. Until I pointed it out to him, I doubt that he strung his past relationships together in that way; but since there was a break in the time we’ve been hanging out, I saw a very clear mark of before and after.

Either way, the point is kind of moot now. A piece like this exists to document a moment in time, but real life moves far faster.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:35 pm ¶
Jack D. wrote:

This narrative has prompted a scenario that keeps running through my head now, with different details substituted each time, like one of those big Mix-and-Match flip books that were so fun to play with when I was a kid. Or Mad Libs …

“Hey, best girl friend, what do you think about the women I date? (ahem) Be honest.”

“Well, JJ, I can’t help but notice that all your love interests have a BIG BUTT. What’s up with that? Why don’t you ever go out with someone who has THE OPPOSITE OF A BIG BUTT? That’s just wrong, and now that you’ve given me permission I’ll probably bring it up every time we talk about relations, until you change your ways…”

Sub: big butt, red hair, brown eyes, tall, large chest, skin color, etc. Take your pick. Vary the same details among the two speakers as well for even more fun!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:41 pm ¶
bertie wrote:

Great post. I’d be curious to know the type (for lack of a better word) of black women BB dated in the past. Is there an abundance of that “type” where he is currently?

But to be honest–it seems like the cat you knew in highschool is gone and has been replaced with a much shallower version. From what you describe, he isn’t interested in smart interesting women of any color–just playthings of the caucasian persuasion. Maybe in a strange way, being black himself- he doesn’t want to inflict his shallowness on a black mate.

Also, just in general on these IR post–where is this city where most black men shun and refuse to date black women. I’m sending my single male friends there post haste. I know a wide variety of black men, and the only ones I know who will just not date black women are the ones who grew up in predominantly white neighborhoods and schools. They’ll readily tell you there is an intimidation and comfortability factor. But most of the black women I know find these guys “watered down” (their term, not mine) and lacking confidence (which is true around them) and are not interested anyway.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:44 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Ali -

Oops! Half formed thought, sorry. Your comment reminded me of the times before this when I (or other women) would discuss this issue and get dismissed for being “bitter, single, black women.” It’s fucked up how that works, how your credibility only comes when you can prove that you are wanted.

I didn’t mean that as a comment on your status, sorry!!!

@Roslyn -

Nah, you got that one twisted. Now, I am pretty upfront about my prejudices and you can check them on the sidebar to the right. They are out on the internet for all to see.

But this one isn’t one of them.

1. I made sure to stress that it was specifically this friend I have problems with. My other male and female friends, it isn’t a problem, namely because it isn’t such a strange and consistent pattern. They truly date who they like, and it shows. This friend, in particular, something wasn’t adding up.

2. Yes, as I said before, for me in particular, it is more likely that I will end up with a woman than I will end up with a white man. But I am not begrudging anyone else who chooses to do so. As Abu said upthread, each situation is different and unique. For me, there are too many political issues that inform who I date. For me, the idea of dating a white man conjures up ideas of sexual colonization. (This is interesting, because one of the white people I tapped to discuss the role of whites in anti-racist or PoC spaces brought up that very point.)

However, I was quite happy for one of my friends and her (white) French boyfriend. They suited each other. She really liked him. And after a few chance meetings on quick trips, she was able to fly out to France and spend a year with him. (They broke up for non racial reasons.)

I am still pretty cool with her ex, and he dates women from around the globe as well. But I never catch any kind of vibe from him except that he enjoys their company.

So obviously, there are a whole host of different factors that go into why people chose to date who they date. I explained this friend’s particular situation as he is the friend who will consent to me writing about his life in great detail.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:47 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Jack D. - Add these to the madlibs board:

*Muscular men
*guys with dreds
*guys who look like black Jesus
* Negro literati

Those are the ones he gets on me about.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:52 pm ¶
Randy wrote:

Latoya, you should try dating some Asian men. Asian men have the same issue with Asian women dating white men. But when we mention this, we are accused of being sexist misogynist pigs trying to control Asian Women’s sexuality…..

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 3:59 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

@ Latoya - That makes sense, I’ve heard the same thing. No worries!

“Negro literati”, hahahaha

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:03 pm ¶
Genevieve wrote:

Very interesting piece. I can’t say I’ve been in the same position you are in, but as a mixed girl I have had to deal with different beauty ideals growing up in addition to the American societal preference for “white” features and beauty standards. Not as much as other people here, because I grew up around white people most of my life, which kind of makes things easier (only one set of “rules”), but it’s worth mentioning.

Personally, I’m weirded out by fetishy behavior like looking for a particular race in a lover because of stereotypes about that race or perceived otherness. For example, even aside from the sexual stereotypes surrounding them/us, Native Americans are very heavily romanticized as “noble savages” and “in tune with nature” when depicted in a positive light, especially in a historical context (if depicted positively at all). Sexually, the last time my sister was at the drug store, she said several romance novels she glanced featured muscular shirtless “Native” men and white women, which amused her to no end, and, though I haven’t noticed it as much recently, Native American women were/are sexualized and fetishized up in the ranks of the “Oriental” category of simple-minded subhumans with exotic desirability. I’m equally weirded out by the selection of submissive, moldable mates by both genders. I recognize that it’s not just a victimization thing, and can be influenced by various cultural aspects, but that doesn’t stop it seeming strange to me.

One other point: I know that I have aesthetic preferences when I judge men based on desirability; for example, I’m not a big fan of blonds, or of the ‘roided-up hypermuscular look, or of obese men. I recognize that this could be perceived as prejudice, but it’s not a conscious choice, or something I was taught and can be un-taught, and I don’t see people I’m not immediately attracted to as less than people. I can see someone and say they are good-looking, or smart, or strong, or funny, but that’s not what I’m immediately drawn to and it’s not my initial reaction to be sexually attracted. I can’t do anything to change it. I’m okay with that. I don’t think that makes me racist, and I do recognize that even something like who I am attracted to doesn’t occur in a vacuum, but personal preference does have to be accounted for.

Another aspect of fetishized attraction can be non-appearance-based differences such as accents, foods, clothing, etc. Accents especially are used to direct otherness in popular media, and it’s helped form the “Sexy Latino/a”, “Sexy Russian”, “Sexy English”, “Sexy French”, etc. stereotypes when such divergences from the cultural norm wouldn’t necessarily be immediately apparent.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶
Sobia wrote:

“The message we receive is never.”

OMG!! I love you for saying this. I have also found myself feeling a certain discomfort when I see desi men with White girls. I’ve always seen this as someone telling me I’m not good enough - whether it be physically, or not good enough to be loved. For so long we’ve been told that you cannot be pretty unless you’re White. Then when one of “my own” men dates a White girl, I feel he’s telling me the same thing.

I struggle with this issue often as I know absolutely wonderful White women, but it’s not about them individually. Rather its about a system of racism which has left us feeling inferior. This inferiority seems to be emphasized when we are rejected by our own.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:09 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Randy -

Oh, I’ve moderated enough of those convos to see that one live and in full effect. There is a similar effect when black men discuss black women dating out, but that is a different kind of discussion.

As to dating Asian men…well, I’ll probably have a post on it when I get back from Otakon (anime conventions).

I’ll pick up one of those “I want a Japanese Boyfriend” shirts and type out a nice post on fetishization and how it works with groups who are historically marginalized in the dating world.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:10 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

@atlasian

Yeah, I understand what you meant, even during the first post, that’s why I said I didn’t have any true meaningful response to what you said. It’s just my own personal issues messing with the topic.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:11 pm ¶
Annie wrote:

Excellent post. I totally relate to how you feel. During my teen years it broke my heart to see intelligent black men with white women but I had no problem with white men and white women. For awhile my older brother only dated white girls and it use to make me so angry but I couldn’t articulate why. Now that I’m older I know my hurt revolved around me never being able to be that ideal white woman.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:20 pm ¶
Mammith wrote:

I want to make two points, one based off some research I’ve done and one based on anecdotal evidence.

Firstly; one major theory on choosing a mate is actually the opposite of what a lot of commentators are saying. I’m talking about exogamy, which is choosing partners who are of a differing background. The wider gene pool blocks a lot of hereditary diseases and allows for more options for better characteristics. Scientists believe this leads to us being preprogrammed to be attracted to people of different appearances (obviously this isn’t taking into account our messed up culture, its a theory of how we are naturally inclined to behave).

Now a personal opinion. I’ve noticed some people talk about not dating white people because of all the baggage, I agree it can be a problem a lot of the time (there are some awesome people who defy that of course), but I also think theres a lot of baggage when it comes to dating within your race.

I know personally I will be held up to higher levels of scrutiny in my behaviors, likes and dislikes and other characteristics with people from my background then with other people, so I tend (not always but most of time) to look mostly for people who are neither white, nor of my race.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:28 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Mammith -

Now a personal opinion. I’ve noticed some people talk about not dating white people because of all the baggage, I agree it can be a problem a lot of the time (there are some awesome people who defy that of course), but I also think theres a lot of baggage when it comes to dating within your race.

Oooh, provocative opinion. There is quite a bit of race baggage involved with dating intra-racially as well as the type of person of your race you are involved with.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:33 pm ¶
Mammith wrote:

@Latoya - I agree thats there’s baggage in each and every direction between each group but I do stand by my point, I’ve always (and like I say this is a personal opinion) felt more comfortable with people who are not of my race or white (this is by no means a rule I’ve been interested and involved romantically with both groups before, I just find it harder to connect).

Also this is not an attraction based thing as I find every type of person hot (I really mean this, a lot of people say this and mean a few select types of person), this is something I base off of how people act and think.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:39 pm ¶
Jennifer wrote:

Latoya,
Like so many others I just wanted to say that I appreciate the candor of this post–and the various complications related to inter-racial dating, racial stereotypes, and race and beauty.

In one of the responses you wrote above, you said that you didn’t want to put your friend Bestboy in the “fetish” category because it tends to pathologize those who fetishize and normalize all “other” types of inter-racial dating–and I really appreciate you saying that (as well as your comment to Eva from above) that it’s never as simple as dating out of love. Love is part of the equation (we hope) for inter-racial relationships but we don’t live in a vacuum and society is messy (esp. U.S. socio-political culture).

Anyway, you’ve inspired me to think about doing my own series of posts on interracial relationships, so thanks!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:48 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

@Mammith

An interesting opinion. I can’t say anything about it because I’ve yet to really hang around any non-black PoC. I wonder how comfortable I’d be around them, platonically or romantically, in a really close basis.

But I have run into roadblocks with me and white men. If I find one that can deal with me and my personal politics that’s cool, but as of right now I’ve only felt so comfortable around them (and vice versa) in both friendship and dating, that stunted the growth of a true close relationship.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:52 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Latoya, great post. I think class/education/ interests play a role, which explains why many black women are excited to see Michelle Obama. She is such a contrast to Mrs. Tiger Woods.

Some men who go for what society or their friends think is “hot” even if that’s not the best fit for them. Similarly, some women who seek mates that would make their friends envious.

“It is much easier for me to speak on these issues as a woman in a committed relationship, than as a single black woman. I always find it interesting how in these conversations a lot of credibility is predicated on the writer/speaker’s ability to attract and retain a mate.” Unfortunate, but true.

@ RoslynHolcomb:
I am interested in your apparent ability to separate the individual from the societal. Are you a strong individualist? When single, did you pursue dates instead of waiting to be pursued? Are you considered attractive (total package, not just looks) by many?

Personally, I have to be open in order to find someone, but there is so much black self-hatred in so many manifestations that I would prefer to have a black spouse as one (of many) forms of protest.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:53 pm ¶
Watching wrote:

Black woman here.

Latoya, excellent post. I agree, we really need to discuss these issues and I’ve enjoyed reading all the comments. I wanted to say a few things though, coming from my own experiences, about what I see happening here:

BB’s dating preferences, IMO, are up for debate bc he is “a black man who dates white women”. Any number of reasons could be mentioned, but with only that being said we have us an “issue”! Considering the history of race relations in the U.S., particularly btw black men/women and white men/women, there IS just cause for discussion. There’s a lot wrapped up in your description of BB, Latoya, and to put it out there is a good thing. It opens it up for all of us to see and understand WHY this topic is so controversial.

However, I do have a few points to make based on the post and the comments I’ve read so far:

1. Latoya, I feel that while you are genuinely concerned about your friend and want to see him happy, I think you have gone about it in a selfish way. While you have made it clear to Dan that you are not just attacking white women, it appears to be exactly what you’re doing if you read between the lines. I understand why Dan has made his comments and I can’t say that I completely disagree with them (or wholeheartedly agree with them). I admit, I’m sick of the “white-woman-trophy” brainwashing too, there’s no denying that it exists. To some extent, however, we need to channel that awareness into action, not indignation. Your “action” may have been writing this post and I applaud that. Your indignation, on the other hand, seems to make you think it’s your business to tell someone else who to date, or to imply you know what type of love (i.e. “black love”) is best. There’s nothing wrong with cherishing an opinion, but let’s let facts be facts. And often when it comes to love, there are no facts (only “fingerprints”, as mentioned above).

My impression of BB: typical male, exercising his patriarchal authority; openly identifies with “white culture” (skateboard, rock music), so not surprised that he would be interested in white women; physically attracted to white women, but doesn’t love himself enough to choose someone who can love him (as a whole person) back. Like someone mentioned in a comment above, you attract (or are attracted to) who you are. BB’s situation isn’t special, just interesting.

2. Atlasien’s comments: I feel like you spoke to me in your comment. I grew up around all sorts of ethnic groups but I found myself within a mostly upper middle class/white social circle. I have always been attracted to mostly white men, and, if they weren’t white, they had light complexions (e.g. light-skinned latino men, half-white/half asian men). Anyway, my point is that whenever I’m asked why I don’t date black men exclusively, I find myself saying,”it feels like incest”. I still don’t understand where that feeling comes from, but I just had to mention that, at least in my world, that feeling exists! I find black men attractive, and IMO there’s no comparing to Boris Kojo or Morris Chestnut. But to see myself sleeping with them is another thing…it’s not that it would feel wrong, but it wouldn’t feel right. Anyway, just wanted to add that…

3. Lisa (#16) made a great point about being with someone who is anti-racist vs. enlightened past the point of race. I think that distinction is a must, and without it I don’t think any IR relationship is founded on real love. For a long time I didn’t think race mattered either, and I tried to convince myself that everyone else needed to lighten up. Fortunately, I’m older and wiser now

4. The obsession with black men dating white women….I have to say, getting a little stale. There is so much that HASN’T changed since the 60’s, and that is the obsession with the black man’s penis and where he decides to put it. I guess I’m just tired of it all. As a black woman there are definitely times when I feel as though I’m being PUT on the bottom rung of the ladder. I can’t say that I actually FEEL that I am, although growing up I second guessed myself a LOT. But the idea of spending my life comparing myself to others sounds like a pitiful waste of time. It’s all a sick illusion, and too many of us buy into it. It’s not enough to blame society or white privilege, although it’s a start. Finding solutions begins with identifying the problem that needs to be solved. Howver, blame (alone) is such a waste of energy, not to mention a cop out…but it seems that people are much too hungry for it.

Bottom line, I think we should all try to mind your own business a little more. Really. I find that a lot more gets done when, as Jesus put it, we first take the log out of our own eye. No matter what reality tv culture might have us think we have enough on our own plates to worry about. Yeah, it’s good that we love each other and look out for each other…but when it comes to relationships and such, those are matters of the heart. If God can’t work it out without an invitation, how can we! We can’t save a person from themself if they don’t want to be saved.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:56 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Jennifer -

Thanks, I’m looking forward to your posts!

I really had to rethink my position on fetishization when a friend sent me a link to an essay this Asian girl wrote. (This was a couple years back - I’ll try to dig up the link.) At first, it was a really normal piece about fending off advances from guys with an Asiaphile kind of lean, but then she flipped it.

She started talking about Rivers Cuomo, the lead singer for Weezer, and how she really liked him when she was younger. When she got older, she listened to the lyrics again, and realized he was probably an Asiaphile.

But, she asked herself, does it matter if I still have a chance?

And I’m like, whoaaa….I never considered playing fetishization to your own advantage before. So I think about this a lot.

Along the same lines, it is really hard to apply a hard and fast rule to every relationship. So while I could argue that since PoCs and whites do not have equal power in our society it would never be an equal partnership - but that would also erase the desires and agency of PoCs involved in interracial relationships? Do some of them think they are “dating up?” Undoubtedly? Are there others who are simply going with what they feel? Again, undoubtedly. Since sex/relationships/relating is such an enormous gray area I find that I can pose a lot of questions, but only provide answers for myself.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 4:57 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

My point is, of course it’s unhealthy to want to be w/ someone who doesn’t want to be w/ you, but for some of us, esp SAM and SBF, it can feel as if nobody is interested. (as a single female, lewd catcallers do not count)

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:00 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

@ 90 Randy

Wait, how is it that Asian men are tying to control Asian women, but Black women are. . . .

What are we calling it?

Of course being, mixed, male, and spending most of my early years looking like a “Mexican,” kind of shaped my views on interracial relationships with everyone, particularly black women.

It would be cools to write a blog about it for here, but the comment section would be a giant, mixed-hate nightmare.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:01 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Watching -

To some extent, however, we need to channel that awareness into action, not indignation. Your “action” may have been writing this post and I applaud that. Your indignation, on the other hand, seems to make you think it’s your business to tell someone else who to date, or to imply you know what type of love (i.e. “black love”) is best. There’s nothing wrong with cherishing an opinion, but let’s let facts be facts. And often when it comes to love, there are no facts (only “fingerprints”, as mentioned above).

Uh, we don’t disagree. As I tried to make clear, this is about my particular actions with this particular friend, not how I approach friends in IR relationships as a whole. Bestboy’s case is interesting because so many different racial aspects are in play - but that doesn’t mean that’s the only thing that factors here. But since that is the focus this blog, that is the focus of this piece.

And in terms of action vs. indignation, I’m not really outraged at black men who date out (I’ll explain why that is in another post); just those who choose to buy into a stereotype. And, like I said in the post, you generally can’t tell someone’s motives based on a glance - but with this guy, I know him.

So, action on this one is a bit difficult. Challenge standards of beauty, yeah. Frank discussions about colorism and social conditioning, yeah. But that generally doesn’t occur too often.

Again (at all readers, not specifically Watching) remember how I cautioned against assumptions? I shared with y’all this small slice of time, some bits conversations that happened over a period of about six weeks. That does not mean this is all we discuss *every* time we are together or *every* time he brings up his dating life. Nor does it mean I brought up the things we discuss about mine. I only include the information pertinent to moving the piece forward. Remember that, in your comments.

But, back to you, Watching -

My impression of BB: typical male, exercising his patriarchal authority; openly identifies with “white culture” (skateboard, rock music), so not surprised that he would be interested in white women;

He’s been rocking and skateboarding for a long time and that didn’t stop him dating other women of color for years. (Psst…skater girls and rocker girls exist in other colors as well. My rocker boy crush was a South Asian kid with a mohawk.)

As I mentioned - it is a recent development that this shift occurred, which makes it strange.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:14 pm ¶
Miss Tiff wrote:

I love this post! It really breaks down some of the problems PoC have with interracial dating. I know a few people here have touched on this already but what bothers me about interracial dating has never been the dating itself; all people need love and companionship no matter what the ethnicity or melanin content. No, what bothers me is the trifling BS behind it! At the top of the BS Mountain is all this submissiveness garbage! I get that there are men who, for whatever reason, are looking for some sort of animated, cybertronic, Blow Up Doll but why are white women perceived to be so much better at submissiveness than any other woman? If that were true then this blog, and so many other things we take for granted in this “post-feminism” world, would probably not exist because white women started the whole concept of feminism right? As the stereotype goes Asian women are the most submissive all the time but I guess in the white woman’s case it’s her inherent whiteness that wins out? Or maybe it’s just that white women only become submissive when confronted with the awesome power of the DoC (Dick of Color)? Is this the real draw?

And what of the men of color, what are they getting from this? Is getting this fabled submissive white woman the ultimate “Fuck You” to the white man? Do they shout out into the night, “I now own your most prized possession and look at how I have her washing my dirty drawers and begging for the D every night”?

And I guess the other side of the coin would be why are Black men the only men in the world who don’t think Black women are “freaks”??? Does his “dark touch” make us automatically turn cold? Does anyone else notice this disconnect?

I know I’m rambling and probably coming off as being very aggressive and defensive but when I hear men like Latoya’s friend say the things above it just drives me up the wall! Seriously, I am just overcome with sadness! I just don’t like seeing people disrespect themselves or others and being in a relationship with a man who sees you as a submissive trophy/or a woman who sees you as an animated, cybertronic, dildo (Who’s also really good at pissing Daddy off) is just so degrading! I honestly feel real pain for anyone currently wading through these murky depths…

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:33 pm ¶
Watching wrote:

“Uh, we don’t disagree. As I tried to make clear, this is about my particular actions with this particular friend, not how I approach friends in IR relationships as a whole. Bestboy’s case is interesting because so many different racial aspects are in play - but that doesn’t mean that’s the only thing that factors here. But since that is the focus this blog, that is the focus of this piece.”

I hear you Latoya, I know your post is specific to BB, not a generalization. I’m sensitive to it bc I’ve had these discussions with people who are closest to me and I feel like I’m banging my head against the wall. My friends don’t make other people’s preferences their business, just mine. I speak as someone who’s been told “this is what you should do to be happy”, when the bottom line is NO ONE can tell you that, you discover it for yourself, on your own terms. There is no right and wrong, only “right for me” and “wrong for me”.

“So, action on this one is a bit difficult. Challenge standards of beauty, yeah. Frank discussions about colorism and social conditioning, yeah. But that generally doesn’t occur too often.”

Yeah but that’s not an excuse, not for you or for me or anyone else. Difficulty doesn’t imply impossibility. I’m tired of hearing otherwise, even if it’s easier to swallow.

“He’s been rocking and skateboarding for a long time and that didn’t stop him dating other women of color for years. (Psst…skater girls and rocker girls exist in other colors as well. My rocker boy crush was a South Asian kid with a mohawk.)

As I mentioned - it is a recent development that this shift occurred, which makes it strange.”

It is strange when a shift occurs. That is what bothers me most about BB - constriction, rather than expansion. That is the opposite of growth, so I wonder what is causing him to want to make his world even smaller as the years pass. That’s often how close-minded manifests itself, you regress.

I’ve been called an oreo my whole life, so I make distinctions between “white culture” and other cultures based on my experience. If you were a POC doing something non-stereotypical of your race, you were automatically trying to be something else. I think skateboarding, from my neck of the woods, would have been considered a white thang. Listening to hip hop = a black thang, nevermind if a filipino guy in biology class could flow better than any other black guys I knew. Such is life!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:35 pm ¶
Watching wrote:

Latoya, just wanted to give you props for your grace with all these comments coming your way. Don’t think I could handle it half as well as you have been able to

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:42 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

Latoya-
I sympathize with your friend. I think I am your friend…
There were a couple comments about Travis Mccoy in your post and in the comments. I love Gym Class Heroes and I have a HUGE crush on Travie. “Viva La White Girl” is one of my favorite songs because it’s so deceptively dark and because I can’t quite figure out what it’s about. At first I thought it was an ode to white girls. Then I thought it was kind of a sad, ironic portrait of drug addiction. Now it seems (to me) that white girls are kind of his crack.
And it says a lot that I have a celebrity crush on him because, in real life, I think mixed boys are MY crack. I never really thought about it until just now, but I ALWAYS fall for biracial (black/white) men– especially the ones that only date white girls.
And I’m not sure, but I think, for me, biracial black guys are my would-be-source of validation. Because maybe if a not-as-black-as-I-am-black-guy-who-usually-dates-white-women thinks I’m pretty, then maybe I really could be! And then when all the commercials and magazines tell every black girl out there “never,” I wouldn’t have to feel like they meant me too…

And that is some really depressing self-reflection

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:43 pm ¶
Zoe wrote:

I really enjoyed how you dug beneath the surface to clarify *why* BB’s dating of these women bothered you: because they embody stereotypes, such as being submissive, nurturing sexual goddesses who know when to shut their mouths. This is similar to why even though I am a woman of mixed race (Asian-white), I am nevertheless frequently disgusted by certain relationships between white (and sometimes black) men and Asian women: because they are often predicated on stereotypes, with men thinking all women of East Asian ethnicity are submissive, nurturing sexual goddesses. I know several relationships between Asian women and non-Asian men where this is not the case, and I know my friends in those situations get tired of proving that their relationships aren’t like that, but I still encounter way too many non-Asian men who cling to this fetish and will even admit that this is why they only date Asian women. I think it speaks to larger societal issues of men fetishizing women whom they perceive as the docile “other”. (Of course, there are some key differences: overall, white beauty is still more highly praised in American society than Asian beauty, and white men with fetishes for Asian women still hold more privilege than black men with fetishes for white women.)

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 5:56 pm ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:

Great comments.

@Latoya,
About seven or eight years ago, a black friend of mine said, “You’re probably going to end up marrying a white woman.” I asked how she came to that conclusion since I hadn’t dated more two or three white women my entire life. The answer: “You’d treat a black woman too good, and she’d just run all over you.” Needless to say, she and I had an argument about how how pathetic a world view of black women she had.
Was there a grain of truth to that? Was it the Wesley Snipes/Wilt Chamberlain thing rearing up its ugly head? I chalked it up to a “DC Thing” and kept on stepping. I ended up meeting my wife a few months later.
Of course, when she met my introspective friend, she gave her the biggest hug known to man because she was “happy” I ended up with a black woman, and a brown-skinned one at that. I like to think that my friendship didn’t need to be legitamized by the race of who I married, particularly to OLD friends from back before HS, but your post shows that disagreements can arise.
Oddly enough, recently I was at an audit with two black female co-workers and when I mentioned that I had a son, I naturally showed them a family picture. As soon as I opened my wallet, both women took one look and one said to the other, “You owe me, bitch! I told you he married a black woman!” Is that good or bad? Did I “win” that bet? Who knows?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 6:07 pm ¶
T.K. wrote:

Hey Latoya,
I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your article. As an Asian American male, I can relate to what you wrote here. There are similarities with the interracial dating trend amongst African American men/White women and Asian American women/White men although statistics show that Asian Americans marry out of their race more than African Americans.
When you wrote “And black women, mules of the world, once again pull the short end of the straw. We came up short, again. Lost out to a white girl, again. Have yet another subtle reinforcement that even the men who look like us do not find us attractive. Again.”, I thought about how Asian men were depicted in this society; we’re seen as unattractive and undesirable that even Asian women reject us.
Furthermore, I found it interesting when you wrote “And then it hits me. I don’t really have a problem with him dating white women.
I do have a problem with the specific white women that he is dating. ” I don’t have a problem with interracial dating, but when it is based on stereotypes and/or sick fetishes, then THERE is a problem.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 6:07 pm ¶
Randy wrote:

Myles, yes, your question is exactly the point I was trying to make. The charge of sexism is often made against Asian men who feel slighted and disenfranchised by the fact that there seems to be an overwhelming preponderance of Asian women who prefer to date white men exclusively.

We’re often accused to trying to control their sexuality or exaggerating the extent of the issue.

What I find interesting is how it seems that many Black women are determined to date within their race and how how the exact opposite is true with many Asian women.

What sociological factors are causing this? For Asian women, is it because Asian culture is just SO oppressive to Asian women? Well, lots of cultures are oppressive to women of color to one extent or another. Arab culture can be considered by western standards to be misgynistic to the extreme, -and yet I don’t see Arab women determined to date white men. And Latin men are often accused of “machismo”.

It’s interesting how many similarities there are between the 2 disenfranchised groups of Black Women and Asian Men. Even the labels that get applied to these 2 groups are similar:

Black women are often accused of being “Angry Black Women”. And of course we’ve all heard the term “Angry Asian Man”. There’s even a very popular website called that.

So basically these 2 “angry” groups are just supposed to suck it up and say “people can’t help who they’re attracted to”, and just pretend that sociological factors and internalized racism have no role in shaping who we are attracted to.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 6:31 pm ¶
wendi muse wrote:

that was fucking awesome. thanks.

love,

wendi

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶
hello Im cat wrote:

Thanks a lot for writing this post Latoya; I appreciate you opening yourself up to us.

I am so happy that you brought up the fact that love does not exist in a vacuum, who we date/love is affected by our influences.

And there’s something about Ali’s comment that really got me, “why would you try dating someone you already know doesn’t like you?” Is that why, even though I can’t stop drooling at hipster urban (urban as in the city, not as a synonym for ‘black’) brown men, the men I flirt with are geeky white men? Because I know that as a short, thick Filipina they ‘generally’ don’t want me?

(Odd thread-iquette question) Latoya HOW do you keep all the comments straight?! I’m having such a hard time trying to even conceive responding to comments that are 5-10000 comments apart.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 6:50 pm ¶
Darcy wrote:

@Latoya: (A few hours late) Thank you for the discussion and thank you again for the post. That friend you mentioned sounds equally interesting. We could definitely go on about the dating topic for ages; for example, we have barely breached the subject of familial obligations or expectations.

Looking forward to future topics.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:01 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@MEG -

Sorry, I missed you! Your comment is dead on - I always think it is fascinating to see how stereotypes are spread. I was moderating the post on Nigerian dating, and a woman there repeated that same stereotype about black women, that Nigerian men only like us because we’re easy and have good hair and western features. (!) But yes, I feel like this is a testament to how ridiculous stereotypes really are.

@Myles - Hang on, I’ll get back to you, next comment.

@MissTiff - LOL at “the awesome power of the DoC!” I am so using that.

@Watching - Yeah, I feel you on that. Here’s something you all don’t know: I’ve had friends in abusive relationships. From those experiences, I tend to keep my mouth shut first because if something is truly wrong, I want my friends to feel like they can come to me and not be ashamed. So, my candor with Bestboy is indicative of our relationship (which is none too PC - that doesn’t always translate well here) and explains kind of why he doesn’t take offense at the things I say. Like I said, a deeper level of trust is there.

And he knows I won’t actually be mean to his partners, no matter how I may feel on the inside. I think that goes a long way with his comfort level, because I’ve been witness to a couple of the “Talking-tos” you mention.

Constriction is the right word.

And I hear you about culture. I know I grew up in kind of a weird space. My school had divisions, but black and white wasn’t that clear cut. That’s another reason why BBs behavior is so strange - our backgrounds, middle school and HS were ridiculously diverse. (Our school districts were drawn that way - where I lived, walking 10 mins in any direction meant I was in a different school district.)

And even now, some things still feel strange. Bestgirl (who I will talk about in a minute) was there for much of this, talks about how odd it is. College and on, his circle got white, save for us. At one point, Bestgirl got pissed and left a ton of messages on his myspace page because there were no POCs on that joint but us. So, it’s really weird.

And thanks for the compliment. It’s hard not to take something people say personally but such is the price I paid to have this kind of conversation. And to be honest, this is a much better conversation than the one I thought we would get, so I am really pleased.

@Shelby - Aw…:-( I do understand where you’re coming from on that. And it hurts when your celebrity crush. (I don’t remember Viva La White girl, but I’ll go borrow the cd from bestboy and figure it out.)

@Phil - Damn. I know I shouldn’t laugh, but I did laugh at your post. That bet was fucked up. Re, this:

I like to think that my friendship didn’t need to be legitamized by the race of who I married, particularly to OLD friends from back before HS, but your post shows that disagreements can arise.

Now, I can’t speak for your friend, and I know us DCists have issues.

But - I don’t think who you married legitimizes or legitimizes your friendship. I can understand your friends fear on some level - you wonder if your friend is going to be pulled into a society you aren’t a part of - but I still think friendships, especially old ones, are stronger than that.

Me & Bestboy have disagreements, but its minor. After all, I kicked it with him and his last white girl for two years. She (not the closet racist) was mad cool. Just not suited for him. I can also understand why he was attracted to *her* - on one hand, she represented stability, calm, tradition. But they didn’t suit. So what does a friend do?

Shut the fuck up, keep kicking it, offer advice judiciously and watch the relationship run its course. I never uttered the words “she wasn’t right for you” until their relationship was buried and he was 600 miles away.

So, in the piece, I argued about Girl in the context of her as a line of white girls. But in real life, your friends should be able to pick up more context and figure out why you date the people you do.

@TK -

Here’s something else I find interesting about these posts - you find that these issues you grapple with aren’t so unique after all. When I write about fetishizing Asian men, I am going to write about how literally seeing Asian leading men can flip the switch in someone’s mind. (And, ahem, if you wanted to write about your experiences, feel free to send them in!)

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:01 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Myles -

Whew.

Easy part first:

What are we calling it?

When Carmen and Jenn discussed Harold and Kumar, they brought up the idea of Kumar getting his white prize at the end of the movie - a male commenter got pissed at the “hating.” Call it that.

And now:

Of course being, mixed, male, and spending most of my early years looking like a “Mexican,” kind of shaped my views on interracial relationships with everyone, particularly black women.

Funny you should mention that. I peeped your comment, left work, and got a call from Bestgirl - who was reading this thread. (She is familiar with the situations I describe here.)

She said one of the things that I am missing from the discussion is how mixed race identity can play into who you ultimately date. She gave me two examples:

1. Her friend B’s experience. B is biracial (white/black) and grew up never feeling black enough. He was often teased and ridiculed for what he felt he was not, and now as an adult tends to exclusively socialize with non-blacks.

2. Bestgirl is mixed (South Asian/Black) and while she grew up immersed in both cultures, she learned that not being pure desi had consequences. She was snubbed a lot, particularly because she normally presents as black or ambiguous, and most of the people in the community would make comments like “You’re pretty, but I wouldn’t let my brother date you” or “my dad hates blacks” that made her feel unwelcome. This got more pronounced as time passed to the point where she doesn’t really look for acceptance from that part of her heritage. They made it clear that they regard her as black first, not biracial. But the slights still bother her.

She points out that these things influence who you ultimately end up with and how you look for mates. She feels like she and B are in the same boat, because you sought inclusion from both sides of your heritage, but only got it from one. So there’s that.

It would be cools to write a blog about it for here, but the comment section would be a giant, mixed-hate nightmare.

Yeah, I am sorry about that. One of the writers who I invited who turned it down was mixed race and that is the reason she cited.

Ironically, this whole series started as a segway back into mixed race issues. I wondered why so many people held such hostile opinions about mixed race identity, but by tracing it back to the root (the relationship that began) we could get some clarity.

But I noticed two things were happening:

1. People were showing up to each thread and saying the same thing over and over.

and

2. Writers did not want to broach the subject of why someone would be angry at a mixed race relationship - it is too controversial.

But to me, we can’t have this conversation without exploring why people hate on interracial relationships. And tip-toeing around the topic isn’t going to help anyone. Yeah, we might all agree that love is love here, but stepping out into the real world changes that shit up right quick.

So, by introducing the negative messages , we can hopefully deconstruct them (and help others to recognize the harmful frame that has been up there.)

So in this piece - apparently to varying degrees of success - I set it up the way I did intentionally.

Evil mean Latoya hates white girls.

Evil mean Latoya is mad at black men who date interracially.

Evil mean Latoya explores why this makes her angry.

Evil mean Latoya discovers it is not the white girl herself that causes the anger, but the application of a social stereotype.

And in that way, help others to deconstruct the frame. In the same way being mad at white people doesn’t do a damn thing to dismantle white supremacy, hating on mixed couples does nothing to dismantle the ranking system which makes us angry in the first place.

It is only by engaging with these negative ideas that we can break the frame.

(Or so I think - that mess didn’t work out too well with letting people work through their issues with mixed race identity through conversation. I had to scrap that plan. Maybe this will go the same way. In the meantime, our new tagline is “Racialicious: Anti-Racist experiements in progress.”)

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:20 pm ¶
ejoy wrote:

I don’t think there should be so much anger towards this man’s choice of people to date. It’s his choice.
I’m getting too much of that feeling here that “people should stay with their own kind” and that’s scary. It used to be illegal. Wanna go back there?
Isn’t it racist to tell someone you won’t stop bothering them until they “start dating brown people?

Whatever reason he feels drawn to white woman is his issue.
Every person I’ve ever known has certain types of people they are attracted to, whether it be race, fashion, height, weight, hair length, schooling, social groups, family etc. Just because someone is attracted to a certain type of person does not mean that they despise everyone else.

Just be his friend and don’t take it personally. It’s not about you at all.
It’s his thing. Just let him have it. I don’t like lots of my friends choices in dates and spouses. I try my best to respect their right to choose their own partners.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:39 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

I only read half of the comments so maybe someone said this already, and I hope that it doesn’t offend . . . but your friend’s comments about the women he dates “letting him do whatever he wants in the bedroom” really disturbed me like whoa. It strikes me not so much as an immaturity as a really disgusting view of women as sexual objects. Which, well, I guess is a form of immaturity on its own. I think it’s the phrasing. “She was good in bed” as a reason for a relationship would have been immaturity. But she lets me do whatever I want (and particularly paired with the cooking line) strikes me entirely differently as treating her like an object there to be used and not a sexual being with her own rights and desires and who actually gets a real say in the matter, which is hugely upsetting to me.

But maybe that’s not how he actually phrased it and you’re paraphrasing? I’m not even entirely sure what my point is or if I even have one that’s relevant to this discussion here at all, but it really bothered me a lot and when something really bothers me a lot I seem to have a compulsive inability to shut up.

In any case, I agree with everyone that this is a really great post.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:41 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

Okay, I forgot to mention that is is possibly my favorite post on this blog, even back in the MMW days. You wrote well, and I loved that it wasn’t a standard story of the sorry black man who is doing wrong, and actually about a boy who just wants a playing, not a girlfriend.

Giving the bad boy route a try:

Evil mean Myles dislikes being called “Black”

Evil mean Myles rejects the Black community based on past experiences and internalized racism.

Evil mean Myles realizes that it isn’t internalized racism, but an strong distaste for the one drop rule because it freed white people from the responsibility of having a a part black child.

I actually wrote a paper about one of my first interracial dating experiences and got an A on it.

Most of the time that a Black woman is trying to date me, it usually ends in about 2-3 weeks when they figure out that my light skin (which they fetishize) and my eyes (which they fetishize) are a by product of me being multiracial.

Cue the freak out:

This involves them questioning how non-Black I “REALLY” am. It takes about 10-20 minutes, and they pretty much act like i have horribly mislead them by not telling them my race upfront.

Gee, you were talking about my pretty coffee skin (Mexican) and my eyes (you know, the things that got me called a ch*nk) I kind of thought you knew.

Of course if i tell them that I’m mixed early on, they decided they like me anyway (>.<) and then try to badger me into being Black.

“Why can’t you just be Black, it would make me *so* happy”

Heard that one before.

I used to post on my Xanga a lot, and I wouldn’t mind writing a blog for here. I have about 2 weeks before school starts.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:50 pm ¶
chi wrote:

well done, LaToya. can’t say i have any significant to add.though i’m excited for the post on the fetishization (sp?) of Asian men. i’m trying to come to terms with my sudden attraction to Asian men. a fetish? i have no idea…

@ yorubella –
i feel you…i wouldn’t call myself an “oreo” but i’m in no way the perfect/traditional Nigerian princess. i’ve been in exclusively i-r relationships and can honestly say that having long internalized feelings of inadequacy, i’m scared to even approach a black dude, let alone one with whom i can connect.

off topic — OTAKON!? damn. for the last few years i’ve tried to go but something always comes up:( maybe next year…enjoy it!

-c.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:50 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Cara - Thanks for catching that.

That is exactly how he phrased it, which is why I emphasized “just because he could” in the next line.

Patriarchal? No doubt. But I included that bit because to me, that admission is what pushed things into a clear line of demarcation. He never talked about his former girlfriends in that way, nor does he talk about women of color that way.

It is solely the language in play when discussing white women - and it dovetails right into that fucked up stereotypical mentality that I hear parroted so often. White girls are easy to control, easy to fuck, so it’s good enough.

He noted that she would never say no to him and told him this often - I thought that this was indicative of both of them buying into a lot of societal messages about the sexual choices and agency of white women. But that’s never really been my area of expertise.

Cara, other white women on the thread, what do you think?

@Cat -

Normally, I don’t follow the comments this closely. But since this is a provocative topic, I wanted to make sure I was around to field questions. Keeping them straight it just a matter of not letting them pile up.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:51 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

I get where you are coming from with the sentiment especially as this dude is your friend but I find myself disagreeing with the overall sentiment. Please don’t get me wrong Latoya, I respect your feelings on this topic but I guess my view on the whole IR thing just keeps kicking in. Me personally, I don’t care who a person dates or why they are dating that person. People have all sorts of reasons for doing whatever it is they do and as far as they are fine with it, I don’t put my nose in it. If the dude likes White girls only (or the stereotype of white women) then that’s on him. He and the lady in question will be the only ones to share the benefits or consequences of their undertaking.

On the issue of why black women hurt when they see other black men with white women, I kinda see it differently than what you wrote in the article Latoya.
Too many of the cases I see, it boils down to what I think is an ownership idea. The feeling of why is my black man dating that “other”? I often wonder why the certificate of ownership was not included in my diaper when I was born?

I strongly believe that a person should not take advil for some other person’s headache.

This is just my own thing and my own view on this topic.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 7:54 pm ¶
Alice wrote:

Thanks for this post. I seem to be one of the few blk woman that still hasn’t got over it. Just this weekend, I was finishing up the new Paul Beatty novel, Slumberland and I had that feeling, damn, not him, too… And even though a lot of the book satirizes the black man-white woman fetish, it still reads like a peek inside the protagonist’s (or the author’s) obsession with white women.

Too often, whether in books or real life, a lot of us come up against this thing, where only white women are human and we are all wallpaper. I know how this sounds and I really don’t want to sound this way.

So those of you who have evolved past caring about this issue, please show those of us left on the other side of the fence how to get to the other side.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:05 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Myles -

You know I’m interested. Hit me with a draft at latoya@racialicious.com

Your story reminds me of something else Bestgirl told me, about why she doesn’t really date brown or dark skinned black men. She had a similar experience to you with that - having her green (-ish, they change) eyes and wavy hair and light skin be fetishized by these men to the point where that was the focus of a lot of their interaction. Not that they liked her or wanted to be with her, but that they finally got a “redbone” with “good hair and nice skin.” One guy she dated back in HS repeatedly told her that they were going to make pretty babies. It was as if she ceased to exist - she was only there for eye candy value. So, she stopped dealing with *all* brown guys so that the color issue wouldn’t be a factor.

And I am really interested in hearing about the internalized racism and the push to switch racial allegiances. Fascinating stuff.

@chi -

I’m there every year. At this point, it’s just tradition. Last year we watched two movies, bought about$700 worth of manga (between all 10 of us) and watched the food network challenge while drinking and playing Uno. If you’re in the area, drop me a note and I’ll introduce you to mah girlz.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:06 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

128.

I’ll start working on it.

Oh, and did I mention that the quickest way to scare off a racist girl is to take your glasses off, tilt your head to *that* angle and let the light turn your reddish eyes a glowy, melty shade of blue?

That “white-people” color? ‘Cause we all know that a racist girl would never date a white guy. It’s just that “bright” guys are just so docile an. . . ugh.

Being mixed is fun!

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:15 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

@ Latoya — I think it’s definitely interesting that he only talks that way about white women but don’t pretend to know why that is or want to psychoanalyze in that area. It is troubling to me as a white woman, but as I noted my disturbance before I knew that he only talked about white women that way, I’m having a gender rather than race issue.

As for her telling him she could never say no to him . . . wow. I mean, there’s a lot we don’t know there. Why would she do that? Her social conditioning? Did she get the impression that this is what he wanted her to say or that he really liked it and that’s why she kept saying it? It’s disturbing both that she would think of herself that way and that he would be okay with it, in fact like it. And it raises a question . . . making the good faith assumption as I generally do that your friend is not a rapist, I imagine that if she did actually say no, he would listen. But it makes me wonder if she felt a lack of power to say no after saying that. Or if she truly felt a lack of power to say no to begin with and that’s what she was partially expressing . . .

I don’t know these people and so I don’t have the answers to these questions or want to act like I do. I also think it’s interesting as someone said up thread that this apparent stereotype about white women being submissive/promiscuous/etc. is the same one that white people seem to have about women of color from most racial/ethnic groups. Clearly there’s more than just race going on there, but also a good dose of misogyny. An interesting look at racial and gendered politics intersecting.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kelvin -

Too many of the cases I see, it boils down to what I think is an ownership idea. The feeling of why is my black man dating that “other”? I often wonder why the certificate of ownership was not included in my diaper when I was born?

Thanks for bringing that up.

(And, uh, don’t forget, we deal with it too, like I wrote in the interracial hate stare article. Or that BET special I wrote up. That idea of possession cuts both ways.)

The idea of ownership is a huge and provocative one. It wasn’t what I was conveying in the piece but I hear you on that. There is a lot of social conditioning that goes into that one - like the idea that they pump into a lot of girls heads that the *only* acceptable man is a black one. (Again, see BET special). And that if you can’t find a black man, it’s time to be celibate and turn your life over to God. And that (the whole idea of a scarce supply, scare tactics etc) also can exacerbate situations.

I was out with my boyfriend meeting up with one of his female friends from college and I was really shocked at this chicks venom when faced with bm/ww interracial couples.

Shocked.

I rib, tease, *and* speak frankly with Bestboy because I know him and we understand each other. I would not ever make someone I didn’t know (and this includes his women) feel uncomfortable over what boils down to preconceived notions.

BUT this girl didn’t care and would out and out stare, make noise, all of that. I asked her why, and she talked about how it was a shame that a black professional educated woman like her was probably never going to be married due to fundamental flaws with black men and maturity (!) and considering the state of our community, any black man who steps out in a time of crisis should be ashamed of themselves.

I heard her anger and her pain, but I didn’t share it.

Like I said, these issues are complex. Complicated. And while I can do what I did in the piece, and take a personal relationship and use it to discuss themes in society, it is understood that most of these “battles” take place within ourselves. We have to reconcile these things on our own, and make our decisions as we will.

I strongly believe that a person should not take advil for some other person’s headache.

Well said. And I don’t disagree with that. End of the day, the onus is on you to make you happy. But, one of the things that goes into deconstructing a problem speaks to where the anger comes from. I offered up my example. Feel free to offer a counterpoint piece.

(And, ahem, don’t you owe me some more stuff anyway? )

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:23 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Alice,

I say this with all due respect but I think you are the one denying your own humanity as well as thinking you are wallpaper. If you want to make other people’s lives your issue then thats one thing but I think it’s best to do your own thing. Get yours or if not don’t be shocked that others are getting theirs (and yours too).

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:26 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya,

I’m so working on something for ya. I just need to flesh the dang thing out a bit.

IR topics are always going to be so very contentious no matter what and kudos for a fantastic write-up.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:29 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Alice,

I feel my last comment was quite harsh and I just want to convey a “sorry”. I just think that you either face yourself or you’ll let some other persons life consume your time. Please also take anything I write about relationships with a truckload of salt as I’m a single due who has been single since the day he was evicted from his mom’s womb. Cheers Alice.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:34 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Why would she do that? Her social conditioning? Did she get the impression that this is what he wanted her to say or that he really liked it and that’s why she kept saying it?

The impression I got was that she didn’t give a fuck what she had to do, she just wanted to lock it down with him. Not in one of those conniving kind of ways, but in the “I’ll be the perfect model of submission and be the woman you want me to be” kind of way. Moreover, she approached this as her due. Kind of like, this is the life she is supposed to have. Bestboy mentioned she was religious - I wonder if this has something to do with the concept of submission to the head of the household.

@And it raises a question . . . making the good faith assumption as I generally do that your friend is not a rapist, I imagine that if she did actually say no, he would listen.

Crazily enough, the report back from most of the women he has slept with is that he is a considerate bedmate. (Terrible boyfriend, but that’s some other shit.) A few of my friends have had experiences with him and it is generally that he is decent and attentive. Now, there is no way for me to know this, but he’s very invested in the idea of being a good lover, to the point where the partner’s needs are always considered first.

Further complicating things is his awareness of sexuality, in general. For example, he was the first friend to have me reconsider how men and women consider different sex acts. We were discussing domination fantasies (commonly termed “rape” fantasy), and he mentioned that if his partner initiated, he would probably acquiesce, but it wasn’t something he liked to do. When I asked him why (to me, what he was describing was basic rough sex, something relatively low on the kink scale - sex and the city went father) he mentioned that it is a very strange consideration for a man to realize he has gotten off with his hands around a woman’s neck. He said it goes against everything you are taught and wonders what it says about him, if he is able to get off to that kind of scene.

I thought that was interesting.

I offer that example up not to say that he doesn’t have misogynist tendancies - I am certain he does - but rather that his relationships with sex/dating/relationships are very nuanced and complex. Somethings he has analyzed to a fine point, and others he barely acknowledges.

Gender and gender roles do loom large here, but I would feel like I was remiss if I also didn’t mention that he was encouraged to some extent to behave that way. In being proxy to some of his discussions with the racist, she also had ways of trying to push him into a hyper-aggressive form of masculinity. To push, poke, and punch at him when she was angry to try to provoke him into anger. (Which he does not do - his nature is to shut down and walk away.) It was almost as if she took pleasure at calling him a bitch for *not* treating her roughly or raising his hand to her. At the time, I wondered if this was a race issue, with him not living up to her expectations of black masculinity, but it could very well be just gender role policing.

His current situation also does something similar, trying to fight or force him into displaying anger or jealousy to “prove” that he may still love her. The gender dynamics, as a retrospective, are astounding, but it is hard for me to view it separately from a race lens, due to the principals involved and what is being asked for.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:45 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya,

“..and she talked about how it was a shame that a black professional educated woman like her was probably never going to be married due to fundamental flaws with black men and maturity (!) and considering the state of our community, any black man who steps out in a time of crisis should be ashamed of themselves.”

Great point. I read something along this line on some blog I was browsing and I had to chuckle. I don’t even qualify sentiment like these as pain or anger. I see it as self-centered egotistical tripe. Basically, this lady would have Black men put their own lives, wishes, pursuits, tastes on hold just to provided mates to a set of (grown) women who have purposefully chosen to restrict their own pool of selectable mates. I call that trying to eat your cake and have it at the same damn time. You are a very empathic lady Latoya. Me, I’m just cold hearted especially towards things (and people) that seem idiotic to me.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:50 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya

“At the time, I wondered if this was a race issue, with him not living up to her expectations of black masculinity, but it could very well be just gender role policing.”

That’s more like living down.

But to flip that though, some black folks also hold onto this idea of black masculinity. Being zen gets you laughed at.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 8:56 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kelvin -

Maybe. Like I said, I don’t agree, but I know where it comes from. (She earned my wrath for other semi-related reasons).

We were out at a happy hour, and she was going through this whole grand issue about how the men back in her hometown were willfully underemployed and uneducated and how she was going to just have to be single, and how it was the plight of the modern black woman.

And I had to say hold up. Now, I know my position is dependent on a lot of different factors (being in DC as opposed to a small town, my age, my relative lack of education, etc) but I don’t have problems dating in DC. (Again, I’m 24 - take it with two teaspoons of salt.) When I felt like I was disgusting and unattractive, I had no one. When I felt like my life was going great and I was having fun and had great friends, I was dating three different guys. (Casually y’all.)

I conveyed this to her (especially considering that we are similarly sized and one of her gripes was about unrealistic weight related beauty standards) and she looked at me like I was fucking trippin. She hit me with “How is that going to look when I am the provost of a major university and my husband is a garbage man?”

And then I had to look at her like she was trippin. Because one, we haven’t made it through grad school yet - provost is a long way off. Two, she just said there are no prospects on the horizon - where did this garbage man come from. And three, why is that such a big deal? You love the man, you love the man. (Boyfriend weighed in later, saying she doesn’t date guys, she dates potential.)

So, Kelvin, I do really feel you on being considered property and being shoe horned into a role you didn’t ask for, need, or want. I can see it.

But I do feel like if societal factors and statistics about black women’s hopeless lives weren’t trumpeted from the rooftops, women like her wouldn’t stress so much.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:03 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

I don’t really have anything to add to that Latoya, but good food for though. I was wondering if some of those racial dynamics you described might have been going on, but as I said I don’t have the experience on that subject to have really known if it was an educated guess. His comment on rough sex is an interesting one, and while I actually have no problem whatsoever with rough sex (or any kind really) so long as it’s actually consensual, in the context of his other remarks it is honestly a reassuring one as well.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:06 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya,

I hear ya. I truly hear ya.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:07 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@K -

But to flip that though, some black folks also hold onto this idea of black masculinity. Being zen gets you laughed at.

You’re right, you’re right. I don’t experience that much, but I hang out with a bunch of hippies. One of my homegirls just spent an entire afternoon trying to get me to give up olive oil because it’s toxic and to switch to using coconut oil for all things food and beauty wise. Then she started trying to show me how to plan my meals going in and coming out.

Next to that, zen anything (gardens, meditation, motorcycle maintenance) is a piece of cake!

(And I love olive oil! Damn these holistic vegans!)

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:08 pm ¶
Alice wrote:

@ Kelvin

Apology seen, but I’m trying to get at what it is you’re actually saying. Are you saying it’s a perception issue and something that I’m imagining?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:20 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya,

Since we are in D.C, got any way to hook a 24 year old employed brother up on a blind date? We can male this a Racilaicious special edition a la The Assimilated Negro.

@ Alice,

You are not imagining it. It is true that Black women in our society by and large are not considered the standard of beauty. I get that but my point to you is eff them. So some Black dude you like is digging some other race chick? forget em. Moving on is the spice of life. Getting hung up on why people are in IR relationships is a waste of brain cells that could be otherwise be killed sipping jagermisters in Adams Morgan on Friday night at 10pm.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:29 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kelvin -

Aha! You’re single because you are still hanging in Adams Morgan! Obviously, we need to show you new parts of the city.

I am giving serious thought to a meet up. Let me talk to Carmen a bit more and see.

@Kelvin/Alice - Well, Kel, that’s tough. It’s easy to say brush it off when you aren’t the target of all that horrible shit. And obviously, we do brush off a lot of the mess - if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be able to wake up in the morning and function - but it still just really gets to you sometimes.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:34 pm ¶
Michelle wrote:

I swear, every time I go to post on this site, I end up writing a book and then erasing it because I refresh and read 20 more comments that are super interesting.

Thank you for your candor and honesty Latoya, I think that is one of the reasons I love this site.

I just wanted to note that parts of your post and the comments here deepened my conviction that as a White woman married to a Black man, I really have to make sure I don’t represent stereotypes in the ways you’ve discussed. Our relationship is in no way based on me as a prize or me as submissive (that’s laughable as I am one of the most argumentative people I know - debate geek), nor is it based on any fetishizing. Although, I have recently been discovering that my husband always had crushes on redheads. So maybe I presume it isn’t based on fetishizing, but if that were the case it would be based on hair color not on race.

In any case, I suppose I present the perspective of someone who is always conscious of the need to avert being perceived as being “THAT kind of White girl” (and I realize that my desire to comment here could be perceived as a need to validate myself as the opposite). I love my husband, but race was never a criterion in the list of things I was looking for. Attractive bone structure (mmmm, cheekbones and strong jaw), physical fitness and a propensity for being liberal, artsy and poetic were definitely things I was looking or and he fit them to a T.

So I guess, maybe I wanted to say that I have enjoyed this post and the honest comments surrounding the multitude of perspectives, concerns and nuances that surround interracial relationships. I have been researching intercultural and interracial communication issues for some time and I really enjoy this open discourse.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:36 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

This was a good read!

I might sound insensitive, but when I read that he was unhappy my instant reaction was “LMAO! karma is a mutha, he used his women as trophies just so they can look cute and be seen cook and sex him good, it’s only fair! Cry me a river!”. I’m sorry I don’t wish that kind of man on ANY woman and I would keep it far from my girlfriends.

I’m not mad at him for dating white girls, I’m not mad at him for preferring blonds. The way I feel is 1) it’s none of my business, and 2) I don’t want someone who doesn’t want me regardless of his race. And I personally don’t hurt when I see black men date non blacks or specifically white girls. They don’t belong to black women and vice versa.

I’m at peace about this because I know that if people, regardless of race or gender, get in interracial relationship for the wrong reasons, no matter how it looks on the outside they will never be happy. I know a few people, whites and of color, who are in IRRs for the wrong reasons and I know it by the things they say, and I can TELL that deep inside they know they’re not being true to themselves, but if they’d rather lie to themselves it’s their problem, they’re living with the consequences of their own actions and decisions. And it clearly has no impact on my existence.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:38 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

@Shelby: “Viva La White Girl” is more than a metaphor. I can’t doubt that he probably has a preference for white girls, but the song is most definitely about cocaine, it’s a slang term. The lyrics make it pretty obvious.

Regardless, this is a great thread to read. I love the topic.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:39 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@ Latoya & Alice,

I feel you on that. I’m not a black woman and so I have not walked one mile in your shoe so…

@Latoya,

Adams Morgan is not half bad if you go to the right places with the right people. For the past 3.5 years that I’ve been hitting up Adams Morgan, I only go to one place - Nolan’s. I’ve been thinking about trying out the lounge scene (grown folks stuff) but I’m just too much of a slacker to dress right to get into them fancy lounges. Well that is unless they have some shisha pipes.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:41 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Jess

“Regardless, this is a great thread to read. I love the topic.”

That’s because of my sheer awesomeness which cannot be denied.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:43 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kelvin -

Naw that joint is played. Ive been to Nolan’s but it isn’t my scene. We used to live at the Commonshare, but they closed the bar. No more $2 drinks! Exhale lounge is cool, I like the spaghetti garden saffron pasta, been to the Reef a few times (depends on the DJ) been to Chloe for NYE (a bit overrated), had a terrible time another NYE at Heaven and Hell, liked Helix/Spy Lounge, spent way too much time and money at Tryst, heard some great bands at Madam’s Organ, couldn’t fuck with Asylum, found a bitchin art space over the hookah shops and one of those non descript bars near the end of the strip has bad ass shooters at happy hour.

But most of my peeps decamped to U Street, H Street, or downtown for functional hangouts.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:47 pm ¶
PaulPortland wrote:

Great initial post, Latoya, and some really good discussions here in the thread.

I’m wondering if it might be time for Racialicious to hurry up the post on the whole Wheel of Tyranny thing. It seems to me that interracial dating is such a contentious issue because, like Diaz’s wheel, it revolves around white people. Speaking only for myself, as an East Asian American, I know I’m much less critical about Asian American women dating interracially if their partner was non-white. It has a lot to do with the normalization of whiteness as the standard of beauty, masculinity, success, blah blah blah. Dating white seems to push people’s buttons because there’s the subtext of embracing “white is right.”

By 2050, white Americans will become a minority just like everyone else. I think it just makes sense that their role as the center of the race relations universe should change as well to better reflect that.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:51 pm ¶
J wrote:

I read Racialicious fairly regularly, but don’t’ comment that often, and I have to say that I have enjoyed both this post and the comments.

@Kelvin and Latoya
Kelvin, listen to Latoya. No more adams morgan. If you’re worried about dressing up, try H street.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:54 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya,

Nolans played out? Blasphemy!! I swear if y’all hang out with me and my buddy at Nolan’s, you’ll have the most fun - ever (as long as you can handle your alcohol).

My good friend always raves on about Commonshare but I never went before it gut shut down. Heaven is nice if you stay for only 5 mins, Purgatory is the best, and Hell is just grimey. Never been to any of the other spots you mentioned for Adams Morgan.
Two weeks ago, my buddy and his girlfriend invited me out to U Street on a Thursday night (my first time going out on a Thursday) to this like Reggae/Dancehall spot and I had a tonne of fun there. We then ended up in some spot playing some golden oldies all on U Street. I can dig U street.

Not biting on the blind date thing eh? I’m so shameless aren’t I?

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:56 pm ¶
Tiffany wrote:

“I’m at peace about this because I know that if people, regardless of race or gender, get in interracial relationship for the wrong reasons, no matter how it looks on the outside they will never be happy. I know a few people, whites and of color, who are in IRRs for the wrong reasons and I know it by the things they say, and I can TELL that deep inside they know they’re not being true to themselves, but if they’d rather lie to themselves it’s their problem, they’re living with the consequences of their own actions and decisions. And it clearly has no impact on my existence.”

Love this statement because i see this all the time.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 9:58 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:

@Latoya,

I love all of the comments, at the same time it makes it hard to keep up and keep current with that is being talked about.

To go more into what I said before, I have known white people who date PoC almost as a political statement. I had been told this at one point but didnt believe it until I met a guy who said he dated WoC from time to time to prove he wasnt God to women?

As a white guy married to a WoC I have issues from all directions. Whites usually tend to avoid the issue for fear of sounding racist. PoC tend to be more open about the issue either way.

Arab men HATE the fact that I am married to “one of theirs”. Never mind that Arab men, in the West, have a pretty high rate of inter-racial marriage, almost exclusively with white women. The inter-racial marriage rate for Arab women is very low, and probably less than 1% for Muslim Arab women in the West. In the Middle East the number would be so small as to not even register.

In our case we have to deal with racial issues, she is Arab I am white. We have to deal with religious issues because of people’s assumptions. The nationality thing is an issue with other Muslims and Arabs because my wife is Saudi,

My wife’s father had gone to a butcher here in DC for some 20 years and the family was on a first name basis with the owner. First time we went in after we married the guy refused to even look at my wife or acknowledge her.

When she walked up to him and explained I was a Muslim, that we were married, everything as okay. I wasnt the Christian white guy dating the daughter of a respected man, I was the white convert to Islam so everything was okay. As long as it wasnt hit daughter anyway.

That gets into the whole token white convert to Islam thing. Millions of African Americans have converted to Islam in the USA, usually without a word from anyone. Let one white guy convert and “born Muslims” go nuts. It is almost a self affirmation from these guys, like “hey a white person likes Islam, we must be okay”. Never mind the millions of people of colour who have embraced Islam. That is a culture thing at heart, not a religion thing.

But being the token white guy I get trotted out and put in public. An organisation at my work always has me out front in our community day every year. “A white guy looks better than the usual brown guy with a beard” I was told once.

“Born Muslims” have stereotypes about Americans and the other way around. It drives a lot of what everyone does. American women are sluts……….American men will let their Arab wives get away with murder.

We could write a book…….I think I almost did here. lol

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:23 pm ¶
superchunk12 wrote:

Latoya, I completely understand your sentiment in this post. I have a best guy friend who is white actually, and if you substitute thin for white, you would have my beef. He dated some really cool thin women, and some not so cool thin women, like one that suggested that I was hiding my sexuality under my fat. I confronted him and it turns out, he was afraid of being judged by other guys. Not exactly the same sentiment as your friend. He decided to do some work on himself, and he is with an AMAZING (the girl is so amazing, i have a girl crush on her) thick girl now, and he knows she is the cover to his pot. So maybe the best you can do is suggest to your friend that he introspect for a while, and figure out what negative aspects of his thought pattern are influencing the choices of who he dates.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 10:41 pm ¶
Roxie wrote:

I know I don’t comment often..and when I do it’s not usually meaty, but this post struck a few cords for me.

When I first started chatting on the internet back in 97′, the first community I really came across was that of gaming. Mostly male and nearly all afflicted with some type of “yellow fever”–Asian girls are the prettiest, most feminine, controllable, desirable, etc..

One guy I knew, who was multiracial, but considered him self black had a LIST of requirements for the woman whom he would date. She must not be black, she must not smoke, drink, nor curse. She must be at least 7 years younger than him, etc..just crazy things.

My mom would tell me “Who’s to say that person, if he found her, would even want him?”

I think that’s kinda similar to what BestBoy is doing. He’s looking for this “ideal”, but not seeming to realize that this type he keeps going for is INCOMPATIBLE with him. Makes me wonder if he knows who he really is, y’know?

Also, THAT GYM CLASS HEROES LINE BOTHERED THE HELL OUT OF ME TOO! And I couldn’t explain why. It just rubbed me so wrong! And I think it’s the whole line,
She’s got porcelain skin, of course she’s a 10!

Her 10-ness is seems to be dependent upon the porcelain-ness of her skin…As you said, something a darker skinned woman just could never, ever be…and because we do base female worth on attractiveness, it makes you feel double worthless. And dear GOD, let’s not add body size to equation, you become just infuckingvisible then.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:19 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

Myles-
Your comment at #123 made me feel like an ass. Which is a good thing. I’m definitely guilty of fetishizing green eyes and light skin, etc. Most of the girls I hang with do the same thing. And it’s weird because my roomie and I know that we do this and know that it’s wrong, but we play it off as no big deal. (Both of us are pretty bitter with men, in general, right now so that could play into it too)

But your comment kinda reminded me that guys don’t like to be exoticed either. And that I should probably consider the feelings of MoC a bit more in my day to day life. I would love to read a post from your pov here.

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 11:21 pm ¶
octogalore wrote:

Latoya — you’re a pretty amazing writer.

I used to practice law with a guy similar to BB. Added wrinkle — he was 6′7″ and played basketball in college and decided his kids needed to play too, and so not only would he only date white women of a rather subservient type, they had to be model-looking and model-tall. And this dude was about 100 lbs past his basketball days, which — no problem, but then don’t expect the gals to weigh 130 at six feet, please.

It got so that our group, which was fairly multi-racial, didn’t want to invite him along on nights out much, since his dates were so Stepfordish.

I understand your feelings about BB. I understood it in law school when WOC undergrad friends of my black boyfriend decided they hated me (but not him as much), even though I was the first white woman he ever dated. Even as a non-blonde, non-Stepford, somewhat-ethnic-looking person, it made sense. Nobody wants to be anyone’s perceived trophy even when you’re not. And looking back, maybe I was.

Many times people have requirements about weight, height, race, or other appearance issues, it says more about the chooser than those who aren’t chosen. So you’d be right to be concerned about BB if this is one of those times, IMO.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 1:08 am ¶
E wrote:

Thought-provoking post, to say the least. Like others who have commented, I feel like you are using Bestboy’s story as a stand-in for all that’s “wrong” with black men dating white women. Or rather, all that bothers you about black men who date white women. (Not to mention white women who date black men - why is it that you’re portraying the black men as the ones doing the deciding?)

Not all black men are a catch. Not all white women are ignorant and boring.

I’ll count myself lucky beyond belief if I ever find someone to love who loves me in return. It sounds so simple, but in my experience it’s anything but.

Interracial dating brings with it a set of issues (and those differ depending on the races/genders/background of those involved), but so do other differences between partners.

I’m interested in someone I can’t be involved with right now due to a power differential. He’s also of a different racial background than I am, and if we were allowed to date that might bring difficulties. But right now it’s the power thing that stops us from exploring a relationship. The most frustrating part is knowing that, even if we are ever able to pursue something, people may well talk about how he’s exploiting me, how it’s not real love, etc. If it were ever to happen with him, it would be a real downer to know that people were questioning what we had. On the other hand, I have enough experience to know that finding love is not easy for all of us - people can talk all they want, but I’d be so happy to go home to him at the end of the day that I think I could easily let go of other people’s uninformed opinions.

When it comes down to it, two people in a relationship is a complicated thing because it’s two people, period. If we get involved with someone because of their soul and their heart, and the particular ways those touch our own soul and heart, that’s a beautiful thing. It’s when we have other motives (eg being attracted mainly because my friends will think she’s hot, because dating a black guy will make me feel down, because it’s sexy to date someone who sees me as an authority figure, because if I date her I’ll feel like I’m a radical breaking all the rules, etc) that being with someone becomes dishonest and secondary to issues we need to work on within ourselves.

Like I said, if I am ever so lucky as to find one person who loves my heart and soul as I love his, I’ll consider myself fortunate beyond all belief. The personal IS political, but I guess I need to get myself some personal in the first place before I can feel justified in complaining about the personally political…

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 1:17 am ¶
Pheagan wrote:

I have a question here, and I really would like an answer, because this is an issue that has been turning in my mind recently. What is a white girl to do? So, OK, you make the point that as long as the girl knows who she is and has a personality, as long as there’s something real between that girl and that guy, and she’s dating a guy and not a color, and he’s dating a person and not a stereotype, everything is OK… But, the teeth sucking. I have been on the receiving end of the teeth sucking. It is really not pleasant. And you might have come to a conclusion that would deem my dating a black man acceptable, but there are a lot of people out there that haven’t reached that conclusion.
Let me specify– I don’t date a particular race. I started out with the date-the-rainbow kind of naivety your friend has. My first high school boyfriend was black, one of the only black kids in my white suburban high schoo (besides his sister)l, and it really wasn’t meant to be an issue, we had been best friends for a long time before we dated– and it was an issue in our community, but of the white-racist variety of issues. Basically, it didn’t occur to me to consider the other side of the issue because 1) my boyfriend only had white girls to choose from anyway and 2) because we only experienced the disapproval of whites, I guess it didn’t occur to me that there could be disapproval from a black standpoint.
Many boyfriends later and way past the white suburban gates, I was dating a black guy who made the statement that he would never date black women. I was shocked, just completely shocked, and as he went into this big old stereotyped conversation of how black women are and how white women are, I realized this guy was not for me. And I was reading enough of the intersectional feminists to know something that I’d sort of only partially observed, which is the raw deal of how black women are represented in society. I get it– every black woman I see in the media is light, or has features more typical of white women, I see it everywhere, from turning black characters into white ones in Hollywood movies (Wanted), to the so rare pairing of a black woman with a white man (really, Something New is all that comes to mind). And then I read Soul on Ice, and that was… uncomfortable. To be told that the rape of a girl like me is a central question for a guy like Mr. Cleaver, that I’m some kind of, I don’t know, gold-standard dolly girl… I dunno, white girls aren’t exactly the winners in their objectification. I remember reading that and thinking, but I have a soul to, I never put myself up there to be idolized…
And after all that, if I dated a black man I couldn’t help but think– how do you see me, really. Am I just some blonde doll to you? Do you expect me to be subservient? Do you date black women? And if you DO date black women, am I doing something wrong by taking you out of the dating pool? And if you DON’T date black women, what the hell do I say? What is my place in this conversation? Who am I to lecture a black man about the racial politics of his dating?
When I lived in Greece, everyone there hated Americans, and I got really sick of it after a while and started hanging out more with the African population, since they were the only people I met who didn’t have a burning desire to explain to me how we deserved 9-11. I dated a Senagalese guy, and we would always go to this African club all the time with our friends. Routinely, every time I danced with this guy, I would get äccidentally”scratched at, or get dirty looks from some woman I didn’t know and who didn’t know me, and you know… I really don’t know how to respond. Because I do feel guilty, I do wonder if I really need to be another white girl dating a black guy…. but then what? Swear off black men? Don’t date men BECAUSE they’re black? That’s pretty damn racist, too.
So, you know, really, I’m not asking for sympathy, I’m asking for enlightenment. What the hell am I to do?

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 1:36 am ¶
Olivia wrote:

Latoya,

Well done.

I have always felt like a hypocrite in my assessment of the black man/white woman interracial combo because as a black woman I have dated white, Asian and Latin men but never black men. I pretty much chalk it up private school in a not so black city followed by college at a post-Affirmative Action UC school (there were 13 non-athlete black males in my freshman class of around 6000). I gravitate towards what’s readily available and I’m sure my tastes have been informed by the fact that what’s “readily available” is not black.

But I still find an odd tension with black men who prefer white women. There is an assumption, I think, that I will disapprove of their choices. I could give a flying fig about their choices. But this tension settles nonetheless.

In college I was an outgoing, party girl who went to all the Greek functions with my white and Asian friends. I would frequently start conversations with strangers–male and female–because I was feeling chatty. Without question, the worst response I got was from straight black males. They were at the Greek functions to chat with white girls and it simply wouldn’t do for me to waste their time with friendly conversation. If we had the same classes or interests, I’ll never know. These men never had the time of day for me. And to me that hurts. I date whoever I want but I treat men of all colors as people of value. I’ve never made much use of the “brother” “sister” lingo but in this case, I felt as though a brother was turning his back on me from the beginning.

I had never experienced this before college because I match the black physical ideal pretty damn well. I had never experienced a black man waiting impatiently for me to finish speaking, making his excuses and walking away. Yet for four years, it happened again and again and again. Keep in mind, I wasn’t trying to hit on anyone. Just making conversation at a party.

Anyway, people can date whoever they want. I sure as hell do. But if your racial preference makes a black woman less of a person in your eyes, you have a problem.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 2:51 am ¶
BlkWmBlowTheTrumpet! wrote:

Hello there,

This is a VERRRRY different take on the issue than I presented in a recent post, “Who Even Cares If Brothas Want White Women??” and I think that black women need to become more multicultural in their thinking and free themselves of the FANTASY that black men belong to them… black men SURELY DO NOT think that they belong to black women.

Newsflash…if they don’t think they BELONG to you then they don’t!

Okay?

I agree wiith Kelvin (comment #143)

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 3:19 am ¶
Anonymous wrote:

This was a really interesting post that meant a lot to me personally.

As a half Asian and half white woman who grew up in Asia (south and southeast), I have serious issues about the men I date. (I should disclose that my mom is Asian and my father is white). I can’t see myself with a white man. And I don’t know why. I know that I have always felt like an outsider in Asia, because no matter how much I identify with my mom’s culture and no matter how much I feel at home here, I am still asked everyday where I come from. And how is that I speak the language. I never really feel at home.

I try to convince myself that I don’t want to be with a white man because I don’t want my kids to be “white” and have no physical representation/connection to the culture I know I want to raise them in. I feel that if I date a white man I would be choosing which color my kids would be, and then they wouldn’t be the same color as me! I know that sounds terrible, but I guess I already have a strange insecurity about not idenitifying with what I look like. I remember reading one comment on here a long time ago written by a half white , half black woman about wanting to be with a black man to “buy back her color.” I feel like my thoughts on this issue are really not OK.

I guess the connection to Latoya’s post is that choosing a serious partner, especially when race is such an apparent issue to the people involved, must involve a calculation of some sort. But the reasons involved might be painful and deeply personal. I don’t know your friend and it could just be that he opts for the easiest situation for himself.

I don’t think I’m very articulate about these issues, but I love reading the articles here. Hopefully, gradually commenting more will help me articulate my thoughts better. Race was something my family NEVER discussed. Only recently have I started to realize how f’ed up some of the dynamics between my mom and dad were/are. Anyways, thanks for a great article. It was great to read about something that no one usually has the balls to talk about, and to read about it written in such and intelligent, thought-provoking way.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 6:11 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Paul Portland -

I know I’m much less critical about Asian American women dating interracially if their partner was non-white. It has a lot to do with the normalization of whiteness as the standard of beauty, masculinity, success, blah blah blah. Dating white seems to push people’s buttons because there’s the subtext of embracing “white is right.”

Ditto. I didn’t really focus on that in the piece, but I totally understand that feeling as well. As you say, I don’t even bat an eyelash when it is a non-white/non-white pairing. But the politics of nonwhite/white do catch me. I hear you on the Wheel of Tyranny thing (paging Thea!) so hopefully we can get that done.

@Michelle - Glad you came through in the conversation. I know I’ve said this in the comments, but these things are really complicated. So, with your husband liking redheads…one *could* argue that he fetishizes white girls because they are more likely to have red hair…but I don’t think so. Sounds like a bonus, the same way I like black men with dreds. It’s not really a requirement for dating, but I always find my head turning. I promise to explore this a bit more when we start talking about preferences and race.

@Lola -

I know a few people, whites and of color, who are in IRRs for the wrong reasons and I know it by the things they say, and I can TELL that deep inside they know they’re not being true to themselves, but if they’d rather lie to themselves it’s their problem, they’re living with the consequences of their own actions and decisions.

Yeah, that about sums it. I talked about Bestboy here but my other friends have had their IR dating twists and again, nothing creepy about it. With him, it’s just weird.

And yeah, karma is a bitch.

@J -

Thanks for the back up.

@Kelvin -

I’m telling you, me and Carmen are totally starting a dating service. For the low, low price of $29.95, you too can find progressive, anti-racist love! And if you break up, just change your screenname!

@ Abu -

Now, I’m interested. Issues with racial acceptance? Being the token white convert? Have you written about this on your blog? It is fascinating to see this conversation from the other side.

@superchunk12 -

Funny how prejudice operates that way, right? My friend is taking a time out to put his focus elsewhere but I just found it interesting that he never connected the dots in that way. To me, since I hadn’t seen him in a while, there is a clear line from where he switched over; to him, nothing is amiss and things just worked out the way they did.

@Pheagan -

What is a white girl to do? So, OK, you make the point that as long as the girl knows who she is and has a personality, as long as there’s something real between that girl and that guy, and she’s dating a guy and not a color, and he’s dating a person and not a stereotype, everything is OK

I’m really glad you got this part of the piece. (Seems like some folks missed it.) And again, the onus isn’t always on you - relationships do operate on good faith. As long as the guy isn’t making your warning bells go off, I say go for it.

I have been on the receiving end of the teeth sucking. It is really not pleasant. And you might have come to a conclusion that would deem my dating a black man acceptable, but there are a lot of people out there that haven’t reached that conclusion.

Yeah, I can imagine. I only really caught that feeling once, with my white roommate (and one other time that I’ll write on later) but it is an uncomfortable feeling when strangers decide to comment on your relationship. I was reading a post on a comic blog about a black guy who was getting heckled by three black women because he was dating a white woman. His response? “Did I see y’all at Comic Con?”

My conclusion isn’t that white women should stop dating black men. My conclusion is that the black man I know needs to sit the hell down and reevaluate.

Let me specify– I don’t date a particular race. I started out with the date-the-rainbow kind of naivety your friend has.

I don’t think that’s naivety. It is naive to think that love is just love (see Randy at #115) and nothing else could have possibly played a role in who we like and who we attract.

But I never had an issue with him saying “dating the rainbow” in HS because it was true. He was. I only have a problem with the statement when it isn’t true.

I never read Soul on Ice - can you explain a little more? That line is disturbing, unless I am reading it wrong.

And after all that, if I dated a black man I couldn’t help but think– how do you see me, really. Am I just some blonde doll to you? Do you expect me to be subservient? Do you date black women? And if you DO date black women, am I doing something wrong by taking you out of the dating pool? And if you DON’T date black women, what the hell do I say? What is my place in this conversation? Who am I to lecture a black man about the racial politics of his dating?

Lots of great questions. As the partner, I would argue that you most certainly do have a place in the conversation - it affects you! If they do date black women, I don’t think you have to worry too much. Obviously, he is making a choice to pursue you and it’s not your job to police black dating. If you are feeling him and he’s feeling you and you aren’t catching any weird race vibes, go with it. (If he doesn’t date black women and starts ranting, or starts giving you that “oh creamy white skin” objectification the first time you meet him, run girl!)

I dated a Senagalese guy, and we would always go to this African club all the time with our friends. Routinely, every time I danced with this guy, I would get äccidentally”scratched at, or get dirty looks from some woman I didn’t know and who didn’t know me, and you know… I really don’t know how to respond. Because I do feel guilty, I do wonder if I really need to be another white girl dating a black guy…. but then what? Swear off black men? Don’t date men BECAUSE they’re black? That’s pretty damn racist, too.

Well, in a club situation, your response is on you. Obviously, they chose to be rude and not only that, but put their rudeness in your face. So by my rules, I would feel justified calling someone out or getting in their face. (I understand you may not feel comfortable with that.) You could also mention it to your friends and have them help watch your back. A lot of times, people will back off if another person steps in.

I understand feeling a little guilty, but the weight of the whole entire world is not on your shoulders. It is good to be aware of these things and dynamics, but if this is a person you really want to date and you like him, go for it.

@all - I’ll cover the rest of the responses in a bit.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 8:07 am ¶
Penni Brown wrote:

My girlfriends and I know a guy with similar preferances. This guy is Morris Chestnut brown and ONLY dates women that are Jennifer Beals beige. His whole family is his color but, he wouldn’t consider marrying a woman as dark as him.

Maybe it has been explored in the comments, but, it seems to me, with my friend and Bestboy, that their ‘preferences’ are really esteem issues. Would a healthy esteemed person seek a relationship where they can ‘control’ the other person? Add on the fact that they are ‘controlling’ the ‘most prized’ type of woman? I think instead of challenging his dating choices, challenge his view of himself. When he thinks more of himself, he will choose a mate that is his equal, not one that he can subjugate (no matter the color).

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 8:27 am ¶
Jenn wrote:

Why do you feel better about your friend dating other women of color versus white women. Just b/c their “of color” doesn’t mean that they are any more understanding of african americans than white people. Sometimes they might be worse, did you hear about that Indian father than killed his sons black wife? Mexican gangs are killing black people in LA b/c of their race. There is no “people of color” alliance. That is only in the mind of activists.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:06 am ¶
Diana wrote:

As a 30-something brown girl who is still unmarried, I feel your pain. But ultimately, as you conclude, I do not begrudge anyone love and happiness with whomever and in whatever shade of human they find it. I would recommend that you and your Bestboy check out the film “I’m Through with White Girls (The Inevitable Undoing of Jay Brooks)” [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0829202/].

I saw it at the Atlanta Film Festival a year ago or so and hope it is on dvd or will be soon. The film not only points out the issues of black men dating white women, but touches on black people who do not necessarily embrace what it is considered to be mainstream black culture and the alienation from their own that results. The character also has to evaluate what it is about himself that makes or breaks his relationships. Plus the film is worthwhile just to see the lead character bop around to the song “Safety Dance” by Men Without Hats.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:15 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

On the whole submissive woman note. I actually tried that as a strategy to “mitigate” the problem with me being black was inevitably going to to raise with the family of a Lebonese guy I was dating. A guy who incidentally thought American women weren’t feminine enough. Subjugating your will is a lot of damn work and in the end, he still dumped me when his parents protested my race so that was the first and last time I tried that strategy. My friends were sad for me when we broke up but said that I hadn’t been myself while we were together so it was for the best. So, yes being submissive may seem like something guys want but in the end I don’t think that it “locks down” a relationship.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:24 am ¶
gatamala wrote:

And three, why is that such a big deal? You love the man, you love the man.

Couldn’t the same thing be said about the history of race politics vis a vis bw/wm?

I don’t mean to condescend, but you are young and speak with a tinge of smugness that black women who have black boyfreinds sometimes have.

Latoya, fwiw, that chick you were out with needs to work through some things. However, I feel that you are very dismissive of a very real issue that many black women experience.

I know I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating.

I’m 32 and divorced (ftr, my ex is of Mexican descent). I will marry again (one.more.time) and pop out a couple of gatit@s mal@s.

However, I realize the totality of who Iam (a work in progress) and what is really important to me in life. ONE of those is a stable home situation and a financial security. I did not have those in my marriage. I DID have them growing up (2 parents & a home). Now, what is stable and secure will vary from person to person, but I must go with what I am comfortable with. And no guys, I’m not talking about Max Mara, Amex Black and trips to Europe. I’m talking paying for tuition up through grad school so that your children don’t incur debt. I’m talking about living longer, even though you may have significant medical expenses. I’m talking about tuition and taking care of your aging parents while you near retirement. I’m talking about having collateral so you can get a loan if necessary. I’m talking about building wealth so that you can avoid taking out loans. I’ve noticed that only black folks seem to make a big deal out of this. I suppose it comes from the false monolith we’ve constructed to unify in the face of White Racism and a historical lack of access to capital. In most cultures-in the US-financial stability/security is par for the course.

Bear in mind that economic (and yes, educational) parity brings its own set of values. [Yes, I know profs don’t make a lot and some without a BA can. But generally, education increases the amount of $ you will earn.] Maybe that chick will be the provost (since when is ambition a problem). Perhaps she scrimped, saved, took out loans, worked in the bookstore, pulled all-nighters so that she can get an education and take care of herself (and maybe her family). It shows what kind of person she is and what sacrifices she is willing to make. Is it too much to ask that a man do the same?

As an ancillary matter, about the shortage.

If we know that a disproportionate amount of black men are incarcerated or in the system, and we know that a disproportionate amount of black men die prematurely due to violence, and we know that a disproportionate amount drop out of school, then why is it so damn hard to understand that a number of black men will not have the opportunity to educate themselves and rise to the professional ranks? This affects DC, ATL, Chicago, NY and any other place.

I sat and watched in high school how black males that showed up in 9th grade, didn’t show up in 10th. I counted the number of blacks in law school and came up w/ a ratio of 5:1 (female to male). Yes, females across the board are outnumbering males in the classroom. But not at a 5:1 ratio!!! Let me tell you, grad school is where a lot of folks meet each other and start to settle down. They pool resources by cohabiting, get married (w/ accompanying legal benefits/protections), pay down debt (net worth), buy a house (net worth, equity-well before anyways), and start a family.

Add all of this to personality, companionship, shared interests, chemistry…sometimes you’ve gotta budge on some things. There’s more to me than racial politics. For instance, I’m an atheist, which is very unpopular with most people - ESPECIALLY BLACK FOLKS! I’ve chosen to cast a wide net racially, because I’m too pragmatic to believe that I will certainly find that bm.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:33 am ¶
Lola wrote:

@ Pheagan wrote:

Many boyfriends later and way past the white suburban gates, I was dating a black guy who made the statement that he would never date black women. I was shocked, just completely shocked, and as he went into this big old stereotyped conversation of how black women are and how white women are, I realized this guy was not for me.

This is the issue many BW have with some BM. It’s not the fact that they date out, it’s the fact that a lot of them use excuses (stereotypes) to explain their choices. I feel that any person who needs to explain their decision by dissing their own (or anyone) has issues. You won’t hear me diss BM whenever I date a non-BM because how could I hate my father who’s a GOOD father at that? How could I stereotype when I don’t want to BE stereotyped myself? And third, it’s not about THEM, it’s about the connection/chemistry between the non-BM and I. Why would I need excuses for my attraction anyway?

——

I dunno, white girls aren’t exactly the winners in their objectification. I remember reading that and thinking, but I have a soul to, I never put myself up there to be idolized…

Nobody wins when it comes to stereotypes. I often hear that getting attention, even based on stereotypes, is better than getting no attention, and quite frankly I DO NOT believe it’s true. Is the grass really greener on the other side? Sometimes I wonder. You’re still being put in a box, still being fetishized. Asian women are “submissive geishas”, white girls are “controllable and porn stars”, hispanic women “do everything cook and clean”, black women are nothing but “badunkadunks”. I won’t lie to you, I’ve had a few bad experiences with some WW. Because of the obvious arrogance of some of them involved with BM in my circle (things like this do happen, sorry but its true, I’m certainly not part of the “sucking teeth” crew, I’m not at war against anyone, I’m just sharing my experience like you did), but I knew they were being used and I would feel for them at the same time. As a WOMAN, I don’t like seeing other women being used. Unfortunately, many will allow others to use them out of love. Some men - just like women - are being used for sex, or money, but out of love, they choose not to see it.

————

So, you know, really, I’m not asking for sympathy, I’m asking for enlightenment. What the hell am I to do?

I’ma be brutal but…..KEEP IT MOVING!!! Stop feeling guilty, you didn’t kill anybody, date who you want regardless of what people think, ask as many questions as possible to the man, you can SENSE after 2 or 3 conversations if a man simply likes you or sees you as a fetish. “Oh I like women like you cause they are [insert stereotype]”. I mean when people get comfortable, they reveal themselves without realizing. A lot of people TURN A BLIND EYE to what they hear because they’re in love, but I’m willing to bet 80% of people who are being fetishized have signs from the beginning of the relationship. They just choose to ignore it and “believe” that things will change for the better. I’ve been fetishized too, and I can easily detect it, because I ask questions, I listen carefully and I’m too brutally honest with MYSELF and others. Bottomline is we ALL have our problems to deal with when it comes to IR dating. A black friend of mine went through pure HELL for dating a WM, some BW are being physically attacked by some BM for dating out.

What are you gonna do? KEEP IT MOVING Pheagan, if you wanna live freely, you do NOT have a choice.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:51 am ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

I actually found closure on the issue from this blog…..WOW.
It just finally clicked that very few relationships based on the wrong reasons survive or lead to real happiness and satisfaction…( IR or otherwise)….so you know let the ‘Blondes only need apply’ guys do them, I will do me. Karma is indeed a female dog. lol.

The main frustrating thing is when your friendliness and courtesy is thrown in your face. You know when you make the mistake of saying Hi cos you happen to be standing next to a Black guy (at an almost all white party) and he grimaces and runs away. Somehow my ‘hi’ is seen as ‘I want to have your babies’ …wtf? I cant help the bedroom eyes…lol

Oh and one other thing. On the rare occassion when I surprise you by being attractive (in spite of my Blackness). Please Please Please Dont say it out loud. It reaaaallllyyy puts a damper on things. Thanks

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 10:25 am ¶
IRRidescent wrote:

I hope people don’t get death threats anymore from being in an IRR, but I can remember a time when they did.

As a child of an interracial marriage, I have had abundant time to realize that we have surprisingly little conscious control over most of the things which makes us ourselves.

Any attempt to change these forces ultimately leads to being excruciatingly torn between authentic romantic desire and superficial conformity out of fear.

Any relationship based on authentic desire is worth enduring anything.

A many of these relationships take a lot of energy to defend from external pressures even today, but if the majority of the desire is also inauthentic (or fetishistic/shallow), there is no way that relationship will be good for very long, and it will end badly (probably).

We have (2(individual psycho-emotional dynamics)/(internalized racial attitudes)+(external racial attitudes)) x acceptance of immediate human environment = IRR probability of success.

And, let’s not forget that proximity has a lot to do with it. You *tend* to date what’s available around you.

In my mind, a lot of the content in this topic has to do with the *slow* assimilation of black minds into the western fold, but not black bodies…yet. I think a lot of people are wrestling with that, and some are “ahead of the curve” if you will. These folks are chomping at the bit, while others wish they were stuck in the 1980’s, “when black was black.”

Ambiguous culture has been a privilege of white america since the dawn of the modern age, but this privilege (afforded by empire) to choose one’s culture is relatively new to blacks and other poc. The freedom to choose who you romantically date is a part of american culture that is new to both.

Inherent in that culture is fetishization, objectification, commodification, and class(race). These elements cannot be separated from the culture as we all know. Also, I don’t think they can be excised from our own minds either, as children of that culture (whether we like it or not).

The truth is, there are more similarities
“lifestyles and values” within classes than races because the concept of race is based on something artificially projected onto phenotype, while class is based on your income/lifestyle. Just watch sweet sixteen.

I think the current generations of americanized poc need to disentangle our personal histories from the historical context of race in this country in order to continue the integration process, which definitely hasn’t happened yet. Culturally, we are getting there, but economically and genetically we are obviously not there yet.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 10:26 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Gatamala -

I don’t mean to condescend, but you are young and speak with a tinge of smugness that black women who have black boyfreinds sometimes have.

Latoya, fwiw, that chick you were out with needs to work through some things. However, I feel that you are very dismissive of a very real issue that many black women experience.

I know that, and I acknowledged that fact in that part of the post - I said take it with two teaspoons of salt because my experience is that - mine. And I don’t dismiss the very real struggles that black women have when trying to date within the race, particularly as we age and with the different ideas in play about needs, stability, religion, etc. So the advice I gave her would not have been something I said to someone who was even five years ahead of me.

But she’s not. She’s my age, Gata. And while I can feel her on the guys back in the hometown not doing anything with their lives, she’s lived in three major cities since then. She’s been to an HBCU and settled in black areas of these major cities. And yes, these kind of structural issues are a major factor as well as religious. (She, like you, is an atheist.)

But, if you openly wear your anger on your sleeve, if you grill black men about their background and prospects within the first ten minutes of meeting them, if you refuse to engage with any black man who has the nerve to find a white woman attractive (not date, but admiring a certain celeb)…there is also an element of self-sabotage there, no?

And there is nothing wrong with ambition - but why fret about a problem you don’t have yet? Life is crazy and strange and all kinds of things can happen over the course of a year, let alone 15. So I don’t see the point in someone, our age, fretting over stuff that hasn’t happened yet.

@Anonymous:

I guess the connection to Latoya’s post is that choosing a serious partner, especially when race is such an apparent issue to the people involved, must involve a calculation of some sort. But the reasons involved might be painful and deeply personal. I don’t know your friend and it could just be that he opts for the easiest situation for himself.

And you just summed up my whole piece in one paragraph. I should hire you to ghostwrite!

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 10:28 am ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:

@Latoya,
You know how parochial DC can be at times, so having my friend say that I’d probably end up marrying a white woman was probably bound to happen. There’s an “ownership” factor for black women of black men, too. Especially in DC where there are very desirable candidates for marriage amongst the black men and women here. Maybe the crunch on available black men isn’t as heightened as it is in other places, you still hear the ladies talk about it. A single black lady at my office asks to be hooked up with my friends from time to time. She says that the women that get the good black men in the DC Metro are all light-skinned and long-haired. Since I didn’t marry a woman like that, I can’t speak to it.
The co-workers that had a bet going on which race of wife I had was sort of creepy, really, but I played along and I was glad, I guess, that they were glad I had married and had a child with a black woman (in that order.)
Last year, we lived in Chicago for work, and a white lady down in the Gold Coast walked up to my wife while she and my son were shopping. She straight-up asked my wife if she was the nanny. Yikes. I’m fair-skinned and the wifey is brown-skinned. I was on a business trip at the time, so all I got to see was my wife pissed off to the highest of pisstivity. And then it happened again a few weeks later in a different part of town. Ick. Somebody looked at my son’s complexion, the “quality” of his hair (it’s really just texture), and his features and figured that my wife couldn’t be his mother.
But that’s the dichotomy. I can be fair-skinned and have Euro features, but I’m too brown for some white folks. Which also means I’m not brown enough for some black folks. “Are you mixed?” I still get that. Is my son going to have to go through this, too? My parents never “taught” me that I was light-skinned and I have to watch out for this or that as I grew up. (Both my parents are black). I have no earthly clue what to “teach” my son about his complexion and how it compares (or doesn’t) to his cousins or anyone he meets on the street or sits next to in school or dates or marries.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 11:34 am ¶
Horserider wrote:

My computer is having a bad day and has eaten my first response !

Why did you sit on this post for 6 months!

was it too revealing of some internal thing you would rather hide, some different latoya, someone we would not recognise as fair, balanced, logical, another side to you, you would rather not reveal. do you think you have really found the answer or is this what you want to believe…that you have one found.

I do not have a problem with him dating white women, I have a problem with the specific white women that he is dating.

somehow this seems a little neat, logical and a smart turn of phrase, like one of those statements pastors use to rouse the church on sunday morning, ‘ask not what your church can do for you ….etc etc. one that puts an end to any deeper introspection. A good feel making phrase, a good place to conclude…

You seem to have grabbed it as soon as it occurred. Could it be that it was the kind of ‘neat’ conclusion that made you relieved that nothing else could be beneath those feelings.

Should it read
I wish I did not think i might largely have a problem with him dating white women, how much better it would be if I can largely say, its the specific white women that he is dating.

Can you bear the real raw reason, or without intellectualiszation?

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 12:07 pm ¶
Free wrote:

A good sista friend used to tell her sons that the reason that black women are so demanding of you is because we care. White women let you do and be however you want, will let you leave this house looking bad because they don’t what it means to be a black man in this country. We know what you have to go through and we believe in you. We expect more because we know that more is expected of you.

No disrespect Latoya, but as with some others I think your friend is immature and maybe dark brown women are better off that he won’t date them. Perhaps you said this, but your friends rejection of black women is on a certain level a rejection of you: he can be your friend, but would never be your lover. I’m not saying this is your wish. It’s like people who can be friends with me because of my olive complexion and “good features” and yet reject my brother’s ebony complexion and “broad features.” That’s a hell of a thing to deal with.

All this talk and speculation about interracial relationships just makes me tired as well as objectified. I think of my white father and black mother and me and my white husband and marvel at the interest that we create like spectacles at a freak show. If race is just a social construct then in theory it really doesn’t matter who you date. But that isn’t how life works. *sigh*

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

But, if you openly wear your anger on your sleeve, if you grill black men about their background and prospects within the first ten minutes of meeting them, if you refuse to engage with any black man who has the nerve to find a white woman attractive (not date, but admiring a certain celeb)…there is also an element of self-sabotage there, no?

dang! She does this?

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
Eva wrote:

“A good sista friend used to tell her sons that the reason that black women are so demanding of you is because we care. White women let you do and be however you want, will let you leave this house looking bad because they don’t what it means to be a black man in this country. We know what you have to go through and we believe in you. We expect more because we know that more is expected of you. ”

I really, really, really like this. It makes me think of Wesley Snipes. I wonder, had he been with a black woman, would he have gotten into all that trouble with the IRS?

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 12:52 pm ¶
LM wrote:

@ Horserider:

Really?

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 1:03 pm ¶
D wrote:

Late to the game, but here is the article about asiaphiles (”Do I have a chance?”) referenced earlier
http://www.ocweekly.com/news/news/yellow-fever/26126/?page=3

Latoya:
Soul on Ice describes the rape of a white woman by the black author as a revolutionary act. I don’t remember the exact quote, but he describes the act as trampling on white man’s values/ethnics, and destroying his property; the rape sent fear through the white community, and therefore was a principled act.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 1:53 pm ¶
Dan wrote:

Eva c’mon. Are you actually suggesting that if Wesley Snipes dated black women, he wouldn’t be in trouble with the IRS? Are you suggesting that black women have the market cornered on morality? Are you suggesting, without knowing the first thing about Wesley and his relationship with his wife, that she was right there alongside Wesley, rubbing her hands together and encouraging him to stiff the government out of all that money? I guess that’s why Whitney Houston kept herself and Bobby Brown out of trouble, right? *rolleyes*

On a side note, I came across this on TV-One:

http://www.tvoneonline.com/shows/show.asp?sid=122&id=2085

It’s a list of most beautiful black women.

First, the shocking absence of Halle Berry, second, in the short info about Stacey Dash it says:

“Whether it’s because Halle Berry officially gave up on Black men…”

Ahhh I see. So Halle Berry only married that white guy because she gave up on black men.

Not because she found someone she just clicks with.

Not because she found someone who she loves and who loves her.

That’s right, the ONLY reason Halle is with a white guy is because she’s sick and tired of black men.

This archaic mentality needs to stop. Not all black women date outside the black race simply because they’ve ‘given up’ on black men. Just like not all black men date outside the black race because they’ve ‘given up’ on black women, or find other women easier to deal with.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 2:14 pm ¶
Ms. Four wrote:

I read through most of, but not all of, the comments, so forgive me if this is redundant.

Looking at Bestboy’s recent dating habits, and his comment about asking his girlfriend to do something in bed just to see if she would… well, it sounds pretty misogynistic to me. Maybe he’s working on his misogyny on white women? (Which isn’t okay either.)

Latoya, you know this guy, so maybe I’m totally off-base, but dating someone you don’t respect is bad all around.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 2:26 pm ¶
Wanderinglady wrote:

@D (#181): I’ve never read “Soul on Ice”, but Eldridge Cleaver’s thinking on this issue is interesting. I’m just wondering, how is conforming to a stereotype a “revolutionary” act?

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 2:38 pm ¶
Dana wrote:

I have never felt a knee-jerk negative reaction when seeing a white woman and black man together. However I have been given the stank-face by some white women that are out and about with black men, because they have assumed that I would view them negatively. Most of the time I just try to avoid any eye contact, lest I come off as some sort of aggressive territorial black woman, when all I’m doing is observing my surroundings. Stereotyping and jumping to conclusions can go both ways. I could frankly care less about other peoples relationships, interracial or intraracial. I don’t want someone who doesn’t want me, regardless of their race. I don’t want to waste my brain cells worrying about why someone is rejecting me. I just try to move up and move on.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 2:44 pm ¶
Eva wrote:

Dan,

“Eva c’mon. Are you actually suggesting that if Wesley Snipes dated black women, he wouldn’t be in trouble with the IRS? Are you suggesting that black women have the market cornered on morality? Are you suggesting, without knowing the first thing about Wesley and his relationship with his wife, that she was right there alongside Wesley, rubbing her hands together and encouraging him to stiff the government out of all that money? I guess that’s why Whitney Houston kept herself and Bobby Brown out of trouble, right? *rolleyes*”

Bad example Dan, both of them are/were drug addicts and one thing I do know, an addict is an addict no matter the race.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 3:37 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

co-sign with Dana-

Some IR couples can put up a negative attitude from the get go. I don’t know if it’s because they get so much crap they’ve gone paranoid so I never get upset; just awkward. I just try to avoid eye contact and pretend they’re not there if they seem like they’re going to be mean. But it’s never good to respond to prejudice with prejudice.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 4:12 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

@ 158 Shelby

When you know better you do better ;).

The main thing I always found so odd about being placed in the position of being the exotic other is that people tend to focus on my non-”african” traits, but they are pretty quick to comment that they want their IBM.

My mother had a similar experience: A man said that the beauty of Africa was before him.

Refering to her.

My mom, the woman who is often mistaken for cuban. Like, pale cuban.

She responded to this by politely telling him that he needed to add a few more continents to his list.

Lol.
*sigh*

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 5:00 pm ¶
Binnie wrote:

@ Randy

I see the similarities between AM and BW.

I also see the same troubling dynamics between AF & WM and WF & BM in ir. rel. too.

I went to a women’s college. We’d talk about boys all of the time. (Yes, it’s true.) Some AF would talk about how Asian men have bad tempers, are abusive, etc. … I was horrified. They sounded like black men I’d heard say that black women are too loud, too masculine, etc. … I spoke up and said men from any group can have bad tempers, be abusive, etc. and they told me that I “just didn’t understand.”

Now, we’ve graduated and some are looking for white men so they can have “pretty (read: half-white) babies.”

They’re my friends so I hope they’re kidding and they’re just looking to be happy.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 5:10 pm ¶
Myles wrote:

188 is mine, I use too many different web browsers, lol

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 5:13 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:

@Latoya
I admire how brave you are in this post, opening yourself (and your social circle) up to scrutiny in the service of exploring these issues. You continue to impress me.

I gotta say something sort of contrary now:

Of all the topics on my list of things I am now–happily–too old to care about, Who Other People Are Fucking (And Why!) is easily in the top five. Maybe top three.

Please don’t misunderstand my glib reaction to the OP–I hear and respect the pain underneath what you have written (and in some of the many, many comments that followed) but…while I respect the present power of the historical wounds Bestboy’s dating behavior activates for you, I can’t cosign your concern. Who Bestboy is fucking is not about you, no matter how deeply you care for him.

I am not saying that I cosign his choices either. I am also–happily–old (and uh, let’s go with “well-traveled”) enough to know that having sex with people you don’t respect is not a good long term plan. But these are his mistakes to make. Not mine. And (I’m saying this with affection and respect) not yours either. If everyone judged me based on who I slept with in my twenties I would have to move to Alaska and start over. Bestboy will figure his shit out.

Or he won’t.

Either way, making who a twenty-whatever year old guy is fucking into a comment on your worth–even as an abstract notion–is not a good plan. For you or him.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 6:32 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

@Anonymous 188
That’s the strange thing though. Where I come from (or at least, the black community in my university) there’s no need for a guy to be The Ideal Black Man. It really isn’t a problem for him to identify as multiracial instead of black. In fact, sometimes it’s a plus if he doesn’t. For my group of friends at least, I think the assumption is that the IBM are the ones that exoticize or fetishize our “non-African” features the most. And I think this is part of the reason why so many of us look for guys slightly outside of that box ( multiracial guys, skater kids, punk-rockers, etc.) but are still non-white.
The sucky thing is, we end up exoticizing “racially ambiguous” men the same way other men exoticize us.
So I do KNOW better. I just tend to believe that men are devoid of feelings so I don’t always care to DO better sometimes. That’s wrong, I know. And I’m working on not assuming all men to be heartless would-be-abusers, lol. It’s a tough habit to break

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 7:33 pm ¶
Hokayshenao wrote:

I believe actors have wanted to look that way in a picture. Racism toward interracial couples has really stressed America. There is nothing the eyes can see that would take the place of the way love feels within two people.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 7:41 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya
“I’m telling you, me and Carmen are totally starting a dating service. For the low, low price of $29.95, you too can find progressive, anti-racist love! And if you break up, just change your screenname!”

Hell yeahhhh!

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 8:35 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:

Latoya, thanks for the excellent essay. Rest of you - be catching up later! (194 too many to read at once)

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:05 pm ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:

@ Shelby,
When I was in college (UVa in the mid90’s) the term for an IBM was “on time” and I’ll use it in a sentence for you: “Toure was droppin’ knowledge at the PanAfrican conference last week, he’s on time.”
IBM seems to be along those same lines.

@ Hokayshenao,
My cousin is half-black and half-Japanese. His girlfriend is half-white and half-black. I wonder which part pisses off people the most? It’s honestly hard to tell that they are both mixed except that he looks more black than Asian and his girlfriend looks more white than black. To some, it looks like a black/white relationship and it actually has more layers to it than that.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 9:39 pm ¶
alexandra wrote:

I think this is relevant.

I am a white woman who does not fit the stereotypical model of beauty in this country. I will never weigh ninety pounds or have a 20 inch waist. I will never have blue eyes or blond hair, and I will never be six feet tall like every supermodel I’ve ever seen. I too, look at magazines/movies/TV/models and see “never.”

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 10:36 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:

@Latoya,

I dont think I’ve covered the “token white convert” issue on my blog yet, at least not the current manifestation of it. I blogged for a couple of years, dropped it for 8 months and then came back. Of course all of the old posts are gone.

Actually, the issue has been talked about on PoC covert to Islam sites. It is usually an issue that PoC converts to Islam have with Muslim immigrants.

At my work there were several AA converts to Islam, yet they were NEVER asked to work at our tables during community day, but I am ALWAYS asked. Like I said before, it was said in front of me that the fact that I was white would be good, I didnt fit into the stereotype of what a Muslim is supposed to look like.

I understand where they are coming from. To the average American, a Muslim is a PoC with a beard. We all know this isnt true. If you’ve read Malcolm X’s biograpy you know that it is his interaction with multi-racial and white Muslims in Mecca that made him drop his black nationalist version of Islam and adopt mainstream Islam.

Race is supposed to not matter in Islam. The Prophet said there is no difference in race, the only thing that seperates us is our devotion to God. This is a lofty sentiment, but the Muslim community doesnt live up to it.

So I get the “token white guy” thing from immigrant Muslims and I have to deal with a lot of AA Muslims, usually with a Nation of Islam background, who harbour a great deal of the hate taught by the NoI.

I knew these guys because when I walk into the mosque for Friday prayer I will often get gazes of hate that would make many people wither. When I first converted this bothered me. I’d talk to some AA brothers who were friendly and they made it clear that these brothers still had a lot of the NoI in them and they felt that the mosque was a PoC place only and that as a white I was an invader into their space.

I dont get too worked up about it. I see, to an extent, where they are coming from. Europeans/whites took over and colonised most of the world and forced their religion on it as well. Here comes a white guy and the impression is that we might come and take Islam over as well.

It doesnt help that immigrant Muslims add to this by pushing the “token white guys” to the front and ignoring AA converts.

It goes further than that, many of these immigrant brothers would have little issue with their daughters or sisters marrying the white convert, but the same often doesnt hold for the AA converts. I’ve heard that from AA brothers myself, not to mention off hand comments from the immigrant brothers myself.

A good friend of my wife, daughter of a Pakistani diplomat here in DC, met and married an AA convert and that caused a huge issue in the family. The family eventually came around, but if the AA brother hadnt happened to be a Havard graduate, I am not sure it might have been that easy. She is now 2 months pregnant, we found out tonight.

The race issue is a HUGE one in the Muslim community here in the USA and I dont think it is talked about enough and certainly isnt well known outside of Muslim circles.

You are aware of Tariq Nelson, he has covered some of these issues on his blog. I really respect Tariq, he is a well known and respected member of the community here, I just wish he had more time to write. He writes for a local Muslim paper and is VERY active at the local mosques.

If you could tie him down into writing some for Racialicious it would be a great coup. The AA Muslim viewpoint he could offer would be a great addition.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 10:49 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:

D @181: It sounds like Cleaver was just one more scoundrel looking to justify a base wish or act. Men have been claiming patriotic reasons for raping the enemy men’s women and girls since time began , but I have never seen it as anything but an excuse to rape without consequences, and to display dominant masculinity before male peers. Race is usually not the main thing - free illicit sex without rules, and intragroup male bonding, are the main aims. Serbian rape camps. Maurading janjaweed Somalis. Ancient Hebrews conquering other tribes. Male warriors gone out of control rarely stop to consider that the women, ally or enemy, own themselves.

N.B. Apologies if Cleaver didn’t actually say what D. summarized from memory re:rape as principled act. I haven’t read Soul on Ice.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 10:54 pm ¶
Pheagan wrote:

Latoya and Lola– thanks so much for your responses, those are pretty much my instincts so it’s good to see them back up. As for Soul on Ice, written by Eldridge Cleaver– I think I was into reading autobiographies written from jail at that point. Well, it’s a book about many things, but there is one point where he talks about white beauty, and how white woman’s beauty is such a huge, fetishized thing in this society, and it’s sold not just to white men but black men. And he sees it as not just being sold to black men, but white beauty as this kind of product that’s being held up to black men in a taunting sort of “want me but don’t touch me” way. And it just symbolizes all the commodities white people have that black men don’t, so raping a white woman becomes this way for black men to, I dunno, take their property back from the white man? That’s pretty much what I remember of the analysis, and it bothered me a lot because he didn’t realize that commodification is dehumanizing and white men were doing something very negative to white women by commodifying them and therefore dehumanizing them to the point of being rapable… Anyhow that was my introduction to the white girl fetish thing. And I hadn’t realized but that’s exactly what it is. I work in Cambodia now and I see all these white guys (usually middle aged, gross, fat, etc.) with Khmer girls, and the huge impression I get is, this could be any girl, he’s not in love with the girl who this girl is, he just wants a girl who’s prettier and more subservient than he could get in America to be his wife– and that’s right, the feeling it could be anyone– like that soulless parade of blonde your friend seems to have dated. Only in this case the girls haven’t willingly bought into being fetish objects, they’re real girls being turned into fetish objects by their partner due to language barriers and cultural blindness and wage differentials. Sorry, I got a bit off topic.

Posted 06 Aug 2008 at 11:41 pm ¶
B wrote:

Re: #34 Eric Grant

I think that’s an interesting take on things. I’m a black woman–dark enough to be obviously black and wear my hair locked or cropped short or in other hairstyles highlighting its kink–married to white guy*. Personally, I’m not too bitter about the black guys w/white women thing. I’m a committed anti-racist, and a while back realized I had to be with one, too, whether he was a black like me, or not. My husband adores the way I look, but more often than not I’ve come across white guys who didn’t even acknowledge me as female, and didn’t come close to finding me attractive. That said, a bunch of black guys haven’t dug me, either. I’ve definitely delved into all the issues with race and beauty–both personally with my experience and through thinking and writing about it in a more academic way–but even that hasn’t been enough to sour me on black men who aren’t with black women. I think the BB in the post is an extreme case, but a lot of guys aren’t like that.

Sorry this is so long–feel free to chop it up if you want.

*Incidentally, he’s half-Jewish–not religious, but considers himself culturally Jewish, and comes from a family in which men are known for going after blond, blue-eyed gentiles–sometimes making them convert, sometimes not. His grandma, a Jewish woman mocked by both her father and husband for her curly hair–her father said it made her, ahem, “look like an n-word”–adores me. Her husband divorced her and married a blond and her son married one after divorcing a Jewish woman. Black women aren’t the only ones who’ve had to deal with the specter of the blond white woman.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 2:35 am ¶
B wrote:

Re: #47 Latoya Peterson wrote:
“@Darcy -
No, I disagree. That puts interracial dating into a binary where “fetish dating” becomes the bad and “normal dating” becomes the good. But the issues are far more complicated than that - it is not as simple as saying “oh, what I do is good because I love my person and what they do is bad because they objectify.” ”

Does it make me really square to say yes, it is clearly bad to objectify your partner? I mean, I think that could be a fun thing dating-wise, but I can’t see how things *wouldn’t* get ugly if two people tried to base an entire life together on a fetish. I mean, in same-race relationships, don’t things eventually go bad if one person views another as an object? How is this a good idea for anyone?

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 2:46 am ¶
Lilah wrote:

@ alexandra: I think this is an uncomfortable line of thinking for me. Coming from a fat/body politic perspective, it feels deeply problematic to me to minimize how women of color are marginalized in different ways than white women in mainstream media. While you throw in blue eyes/blonde hair/6ft, these are really tenuous considerations in terms of who is “beautiful;” what I think is powerful in that archetype is largely a matter of having “a 20 inch waist,” as you mentioned.

Women of color, fat or thin, are essentially relegated to what is constructed as an inherent “ugliness” that seems to breed a strain of internalized hatred which might gnaw away at her sense of an essential self. Fat white women, however, generally occupy an odd space of provisional inclusion; the carrot of thinness is dangled in front of them as a possibility, however distant or unrealistic, and therefore they understand their own POTENTIAL to be included–even if they know they “never” will be. Women of color, it seems to me, are most often not granted that possibility at all.

I’m not playing the “what’s worse” game, they are both destructive in their own ways, but I don’t think it’s useful to erase race from this equation. I think it’s worth noting because the intersection of race and body acceptance needs to be tended to with more care than it has been in the past.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 5:55 am ¶
Lilah wrote:

Also, Latoya, this is an amazing post.

It was interesting watching my own reactions as I read it through. I’m certainly no Mayflower material, of Lebanese and E. Euro descent, but I am indeed white. I felt all tense and guilty at first, remembering the diverse palate I have sampled from myself (yuk yuk). Then I found myself increasingly relieved by my own distance from the stereotype which you were talking about. Strange, I don’t quite know what to make of it yet.

This is always a point I feel conflicted by in every direction. I wonder to what extent I am dehumanizing those women that I position myself against them. A lot of times, I find myself denying they exist at all, dismissing the image like it’s made of straw, even though I do occasionally find myself face to face with a woman who really appears to fit. I don’t know what to do with them, I guess. Nobody is all surface, right?

Did/do you find yourself conflicted in any way with this as well? Reading your further comments, it’s clear that she inspired resentment that went beyond being white, but the point is still the same–he’s dating this certain type of woman who represents all stereotypes of ultra-whiteness, and it sucks. Of course there is no way to rationally govern these feelings, but I find myself wondering yet again in this new context about her. I have so many to choose from, but I think she’s the cardboard stereotype I am least suspicious of, that I challenge least of all.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 6:42 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@all -

Okay, we are heading into rehash territory with a bunch of things I already covered. From now on, I am only responding to new questions.

And, if you are going to add a comment, please remember to thank Bestboy for allowing me to share his story. He’s reading, you know.

@D -

Thanks for the link back up. That is the story I was talking about, especially this piece:

I was the 10-year-old girl swooning and singing along with Rivers Cuomo over the three-chord riffs of Weezer’s “El Scorcho,” that song about half-Japanese girls that do it to him every time. Oblivious to its implications, I was pleased that the man in the Buddy Holly glasses had a penchant for Asian girls because, you know, that way I actually had a chance. It was better than being invisible. […]

I was a year into college, still listening to Cuomo as he referenced Madama Butterfly, when a friend pointed out that Cuomo was merely exoticizing and objectifying Asian women, the social phenomenon that is Asiaphilia.

And just like that, my favorite Weezer album, Pinkerton, suggested a disturbing question: Was Cuomo, the god of cutesy, simple-but-not rock—the guy I’d been so thrilled at merely standing near at the Roxy a few years before—was he actually a quasi-racist, ignorant Asiaphile?

And even if he was, would he ever call?

@Horserider -

It is fairly obvious I don’t have problems recounting my own racism, as I blog under my own name and speak about these things fairly frankly.

Cute turns of phrase? That’s part of being a writer - to pace your piece and lead the reader to a conclusion.

And in this instance, no. The Bestboy thing I detailed here was *not* the beginning of my process with working out ideas regarding interracial dating. (See what I said about assumptions? I’ve been alive for 24 years and showed you a teeny window of time.) That process started when I was about twelve, and I was much, much worse.

@Abu -

Tariq is one of the non-committing men I talked about in the editrix letter! I love his stuff but he is on his own schedule, and light on the analysis. Trust, I’ve been pushing.

@Pheagan -

That is disgusting. I remember reading about a similar report (maybe the same thing?) about a black woman who had raped a white woman for “the cause.” Here was the clincher: before he raped the white women, he “practiced” raping other black women in his neighborhood. WTF? Now, obviously, I am reading this from a black perspective and it was discussed at how some men in the community devalue black women’s lives - even as they are allegedly working for the community. All the way around, it’s a disgusting and deplorable situation.

@B -

See the example I pulled from D’s link above. That’s why I said things aren’t so clear cut. If the guy has an Asian fetish and the girl just really wants that white guy, does it matter how they got together in the end? There may be problems, sure, but it could fit.

@Lilah -

Ah, excellent question.

Did/do you find yourself conflicted in any way with this as well?

For the purposes of the piece, no. I was drawing a very clear line of connection (and I was actually thinking of three different girls in terms of the white stereotypes, as well as a couple hook ups.)

But in real life, obviously, things are more fleshed out.

I based a lot of the impressions in the piece from women he dated in the past. The “suck my nut” girl? White. There was another girl he dated who was white and heavy into theater and another one who was white and super punk rockish. And another white girl around the margins, who I only met once. Now I didn’t get along with a couple of these girls either (though the other two were mad cool.) But it was just a simple matter of personalities not clicking.

The post-HS girls were interesting because they all do, in some way, fit that stereotype, the one parodied in the College Humor video. The cool one (who I called boring) was, in fact, very sweet. She had interests that I didn’t get into in the post and was definitely the most balanced girl he has dated in a while. But she fit squarely into that “white woman as submissive sex slave” stereotype I talked about earlier. I mean, she was stubborn about some things. She was very interested in the domestic arts and had an ambitious plan for turning her hobby into a career. But what was most important to her, what she centered in her life, was man and family. And that came through in her day to day interactions with BB. So, that’s the side of her I showed in the piece, but she did have more depth than just that.

And I did not resent her.

The racist - well, she was a different story. She did behave in that way, and was quick to say things like “I’ve dated black men before.” But, like Tami said when talking about Nina Bruleigh’s piece, have you had any black girl friends? She also had some other issues, that post-college hopelessness that white interest magazines document. Lots of physical anxiety about her looks. The *need* to drink. Using sexuality as a stand in for self worth (before the racism thing came up, they would fight over drunken bar hook ups and questionable outings with ex-boyfriends.) That kind of thing. Full on stereotype. Does she have more depth? Perhaps. But to me, it appeared that at this point in her life, she bought into the stereotypical idea of fun, the MTV version. And she presented herself accordingly.

The last one, I’ve never met. But she leaves her traces everywhere. She is like the worse parts of the other two combined and she has made some very evil and vindictive actions her hallmark. On this one though, I don’t blame her - that woman lets you know early on how things are going to go, and all his friends around him at the time (this occurred while he was living in another state) warned him heavily. So, in some respects, I fault her for nothing she does because she was so clear upfront. But, again, she fits that very stereotypical mold.

Is it dehumanizing? In many ways, yes. Distilling a woman down to a few stereotypes and making a value judgment is a terrible thing. But I also hear you - what happens when you look beyond the surface and there isn’t much else there?

The first girl, I think this is just her way. She fits a stereotype, but there is more to her than that. She will be fine.

The other two is a bit harder. The impression I get is that they are trying to live up to a standard of “hotness” that is difficult to obtain. The racist and the other girl are my age. The racist may grow out of it. I just think there are a lot of areas of her life that are unexamined, and may change in time.

The other girl, I really don’t know. From all reports, she is self destructive in the worst way. I am not sure what to do on that one as I prefer to stay clear if she is coming around.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 7:52 am ¶
Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:

I remember reading about a similar report (maybe the same thing?) about a black woman who had raped a white woman for “the cause.” Here was the clincher: before he raped the white women, he “practiced” raping other black women in his neighborhood.

Yes, that’s Eldridge Cleaver. Same guy. (http://www.nathanielturner.com/soulonice.htm)

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 8:58 am ¶
PaulPortland wrote:

As per the editorix’s request: thanks BestBoy for allowing us to dissect your personal life like a frog in high school biology. (Do they even still do that?) It’s incredibly brave of you. After 200+ comments on this one posting, I think it’s safe to say that dating period (interracial or not) is a contentious and complicated issue. Having once worked in a bookstore back in the day and noticing that the self-help/ relationship section was like one of the largest parts in the store (and always busy with people browsing its shelves), this quest for love of ours takes up a pretty big part of all of ours lives.

Latoya wrote:

“See the example I pulled from D’s link above. That’s why I said things aren’t so clear cut. If the guy has an Asian fetish and the girl just really wants that white guy, does it matter how they got together in the end? There may be problems, sure, but it could fit.”

My wife and I are close friends with a Japanese-American woman (4 generation) married to a white man. They’re both really cool, really down-to-earth people. The thing is, she’s pretty removed from her cultural heritage for obvious reasons (her family’s been in America since the early 1900s). However, her husband is totally into all things “Japanese” - he’s functionable with the language, he’s a big anime/ manga fan, a toy collector, really into the samurai/ katana thing, etc., you know, the obvious accoutrements of an, dare I say, asiaphile? Problematic? Well, maybe. The Japanese-American woman most definitely does not fit into the stereotype of the submissive geisha; in fact, she very apparently wears the “pants in the house” (so does my wife, but that’s a different story). Not really sure where I was going with this story, but they popped into my head when I was reading that linked story and your response.

Oh, one more thing - she has an older brother (in his early 40s, I think) who her family has constantly hounded to settle down and marry. But as she tells it, he’s been reluctant because he hasn’t found that “right” type of woman yet. When we ask her what his type is, she smirks and launches into a full-blown sorority girl, “Like, you know?” routine.

Like I said, really cool people, so I have no scathing closing comments or anything. Well, other than to say, Wheel of Tyranny, ya’all, Wheel of Tyranny! Naw, just kidding.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 9:05 am ¶
Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:

I look at magazines and models and say “Photoshop” - but I suppose that may be the perspective of being white and relatively thin (though not tall, blonde, or blue-eyed).

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 9:55 am ¶
B wrote:

@LaToya
First, since I didn’t say it before, thanks for the interesting post, and thanks to your friend for letting you write about him.

Next, thanks for your reply. I definitely see what you’re saying, but to me, the situation you describe above in your example, “If the guy has an Asian fetish and the girl just really wants that white guy, does it matter how they got together in the end? ” is more about sex than about relationships. I know we can’t separate the two, (the interracial sex is one of the things that freaks a lot of people out about interracial relationships, no?) but they are different.

I guess what I’m saying is that I can see how a fetish-based relationship could potentially be sexually fulfilling for *both* parties, but I can’t see how viewing your partner as an object is good for the relationship part of things. In the example you gave above, can you picture that couple being functional for 50 years?

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 9:57 am ¶
B wrote:

@Latoya

OH–I’m so sorry for typing your name incorrectly!! I apologize for being so careless.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 10:06 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@B -

I’m thinking more along the lines of Paul Portland’s ideas (or one happy couple I know). I think, in these kinds of conversations, we base the fetish as the most dominant force in the relationship. (I wrote it this way for the purposes of this piece, but my response to Lilah @ 205 fleshing things out a bit more.)

However, real world wise, that isn’t always the case. Yes, there are plenty of fetishists who wear their ideas on their sleeves. But there is also a quieter note to fetishizing, where it just impacts who you ultimately find attractive and who you pursue. So, said Asian girl might only select white guys and said white guy might only select Asian girls. They may be operating off an internal fetish (only white men are marriage material; only Asian women understand how to be feminine) but that may not necessarily be what they project to their partner.

Also, there is also the element of extent of the fetishization. I recall reading a novel about three Asian American friends, and one of the women had an extended flashback about a white boyfriend she had loved in high school. Now, he seemed to exoticize her and often pointed out the beauty of her difference - which she was fine with. The problem came in because of his parents not accepting her. Now, that is a fictionalized account, but I do wonder if that could also be a common sentiment. It’s okay if my partner fetishizes me, but not okay if someone discriminates against me.

Either way, it is worth a lot more exploration.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 10:14 am ¶
PaulPortland wrote:

Latoya wrote:

“But there is also a quieter note to fetishizing, where it just impacts who you ultimately find attractive and who you pursue.”

And now here is where I inject something about myself. As I’ve written before, I’m married to an Asian-American woman, the love of my life. She’s beautiful, has a great sense of humor, and is kind and giving. However (and you knew there had to be a “however”), my sister would tell you that, based on the celebrities I’ve found attractive in the past and the non-celebrity women I’ve commented on as being good-looking, I have a fairly consistent notion of beauty - pale skin, brunette, long nose, light eyes, vaguely Eastern Europeanish. White, in other words (though certainly not the blond bombshell white but white nonetheless). My wife, on the other hand, is olive complected, has a cute button nose, and dark eyes.

Did anything figure into my choice of spouse other than love and compatibility? Well, who the hell knows? Maybe, probably, possibly. I’m pretty certain, though, that my ideals of beauty have been influenced by growing up in America and being surrounded by representations of Western beauty. I always thought I would fall madly in love with someone who comported to my conception of idealized beauty, but I didn’t. I fell in love with someone else. This isn’t to say I still don’t “click” with a particular look of a woman as I flip through a magazine or watch a movie or walk down the street.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 10:42 am ¶
Horserider wrote:

@Horserider -
It is fairly obvious I don’t have problems recounting my own racism, as I blog under my own name and speak about these things fairly frankly.
Cute turns of phrase? That’s part of being a writer - to pace your piece and lead the reader to a conclusion.
And in this instance, no. The Bestboy thing I detailed here was *not* the beginning of my process with working out ideas regarding interracial dating. (See what I said about assumptions? I’ve been alive for 24 years and showed you a teeny window of time.) That process started when I was about twelve, and I was much, much worse.

Aye!
Last post on this topic
I guess I wasn’t just reading the post but the subtext.

You seemed to fear loosing face, or the face we know. You worry that we will get worried that you are overtly worried about the worrisome choices of BB (who has been kind to share with us!) but there is no need as you have in great detail, developed your point that his choices are clearly problematic.
Not to forget you say the article could reveal you a jerk, yet you have taken pains to cross all the ‘t’s and dot your ‘I’s of your argument so you do not appear a jerk by a long stretch (well almost all ‘I’s and ‘t’s). How could we possibly see you as a jerk except that you were warning that in this instance by oversight, being in unexplored (fully) territory or that strange thing called internal sabotage, you might just leave a loose end there to reveal more. That’s the brave part, the willingness to be caught out. But then did you see it through… only you can answer that I guess.

Even the midway title change seemed odd. It sounded like Latoya is doing a favor, this is a clearly intelligent person who should have joined the dots easily a long time ago, she needed no hard sell, so why has she let herself be dragged kicking and screaming into something she could see for herself. Resisting the rational? hmmm

Is this about acceptance of interracial relationships as the title says? I am not really sure. Maybe I will hazard a guess that something about your core beliefs on interracial dating or possibly this ‘black love’ as you call it, has fundamentally shifted and can’t sustain your former beliefs. This is where I sense the struggle.

Then the title spoke to me again and it said, ‘It’s the emotional resistance that is giving way!’ It is this emotional resistance to interracial dating that held up her perspective beyond the point it rationally made sense anymore!

At last i point out something i have found for me, that when writing about a topic you have not reached an inner honest and fair resolution on, it can impart confusion on others struggling particularly bw in this case (who are the hardest hit yet often don’t fall into your sympathies as the response from gatamala points out); false dawns, dispassionate dialogue, dismissiveness of the tribulations of bw….

I’ll leave it there.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 11:07 am ¶
S&S wrote:

*WARNING: long, jumpy comment ahead*

Latoya, this is a really thought-provoking piece that I relate to on a lot of different levels.

I’m a black woman, still in my teens (legal, but still teen), and I’ve never been in a real relationship. Therefore, my experience with relationships in general (especially IRR) is extremely limited. But I do have my history with them.

From Freshman year to Senior year in high school, I had this almost automatic reaction that bordered on confusion whenever I saw BM/WW couples. It wasn’t until I actually played matchmaker between a white friend of mine that had a crush on this black guy that I realized my feelings weren’t about the individuals involved. And it wasn’t until about a year later that I realized that the discomfort I felt when I saw those couples had very little to do with IRR at all; it had almost everything to do with the stereotypes about black women that possibly played a role in the pairing. Often times, those who date stereotypes tend to disparage the “others” using stereotypes from the opposite extreme.

At 19 years old, I’ve heard more than enough bullsh*t about why black women are worthless. These claims come from people of various races and the different genders, and they are often passed off as justification for why Person X chooses to date Person Y. The stereotypes and the painful images are then perpetuated, often times taken for hard truths because it’s coming from “within the community”. Pair this with the lack of positive messages about black women, and one can (should) see why this type of thing is/can be damaging to the psyche of a young black girl. Too many POC are growing up with the idea that they will never be acceptable enough to be loved, and if they ever want any type of relationship they need to settle for less. Of course this isn’t true, but it has it’s effects.

And that’s what I think some people are disregarding about this post in their haste to point out what’s wrong with it. I’ve come across a few comments that all to quickly right this off as a matter of you butting into your friend’s relationships and having found yourself with hurt feelings and/or a hurt ego. However, it poses a huge problem (and pisses one off to no end) when something as complicated, personal, and subjective as a relationship is made even more complicated when used as a mechanism for furthering the ignorance and inequalities in our society; this is even more so when, come to find out, all the bad-talking and hate-fueled reasoning against you has absolutely nothing to do with you. Not only in the sense that it’s not reflective of you in the least bit, but that you (and the group you belong to/qualify for/were thrown into) shouldn’t be a factor in the reasoning in the first place.

A few months ago, I was having a conversation with a (black) male friend about his recent trip to Colorado. He was amazed at how “different” everything was and how “everyone was with everyone” (where we’re from, we don’t see it that openly too often). By his tone, I could tell that he meant there were a lot of BM/WW couples. Mind you, I’ve worked past most of my issues regarding IRR at this point. I asked him if he’d ever date a WW. He said life’s to short to limit himself. I agreed and admitted that I’m completely open to dating non-black men. Neither one of us had a problem. We talked about other things for a little while, then I returned to the subject. Quick and to the point, I let him know that I (unlike our other friend) would not have a problem with his decisions, but that he should never ever disrespect the image or existence of black women as a part of being with a non-black woman. It was saddening to feel like I had to point this out to him.

So while I see how it can be easy and helpful to say that love is love and you need to worry about your p*ssy and your’s alone, and old boy will screw who he wants, etc… let’s not forget that this issue has legitimate impacts on different areas of society. In the media, in movies, in television. In politics. Why were so many people surprised to see Barack Obama with a black wife? Why are there some people quick to justify it by saying he needed to be accepted by the black community in Chicago? Though there may be some problems with this piece, it does have its purpose.

Thanks Latoya and BB (and sorry if it’s not really coherent).

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 11:27 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

First, I just want to say, PaulPortland, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for bringing a thoughtful and honest perspective about Asian male issues without attacking Asian women en masse and blaming feminism (unlike a vocal subgroup Asian-American men who often comment on these types of threads).

I’ll go ahead and finally add my own personal perspective. As an Asian/white hapa of more Asian apperance, growing up I received a steady stream of messages that I would never be as beautiful as a white girl, plus a steady stream of racist insults based on my eye shape and cultural background. Then, in a kind of schizophrenic reversal, I discovered the existence of Asiaphiles and Japanophiles.

My response was to get really disgusted and sick of it all. I couldn’t stand those people. They disgusted me even more than the kids who called me a “jap” or “chink”. I spent all of college avoiding anyone (male or female) who even so much as mentioned that they liked anime! I didn’t join any Asian-American student groups because I didn’t want to run into any fetishists. I just didn’t think my self-esteem could handle it.

In parallel, I also had esteem issues because I wasn’t sure if I was attractive to Asian men since I wasn’t 100% Asian. I have always felt somewhat uncomfortable around Japanese (as in, Japanese nationals, NOT Japanese-Americans) as I felt they would judge me more. I once had a huge crush on a Korean-American man, but I gave up our friends-but-hopeful-relationship because he was obviously crushing on his best friend, a white woman. I didn’t blame him, or by extension blame all Asian men, but it was a very disappointing and depressing thing for me to finally give up and face reality.

After that, I dated a mix of mostly Latino, Black and white men, and eventually married my white husband. My only racial criterion was that men should have an interest in me as a human being, not a racial or cultural prize. My husband had zero connection or interest in Japanese culture until he met me, and as shallow as it sounds, that was probably a huge mark in his favor.

I despise Asiaphiles, especially Wapanese. They are a conceited, ignorant and racist bunch. I’ve fought my whole life to avoid having my brain colonized by their associated worldview, and mostly won. One notable failure was a time I was set to meet a women with a Chinese last name. I looked forward to meeting her, but had to disguise my shock when a white woman walked in the door. Afterwards, I was really upset with myself. Why was it surprising to me that a white woman could marry an Asian man… even though that’s EXACTLY what MY OWN MOTHER did! ARGH! Media brain colonization in full effect…

Getting back to the article… even though I personally dislike the existence of Asiaphiles and anyone who accommodates them, people have a right to their sexual likes and dislikes. It shouldn’t really be my business to approve or disapprove. I am not going to suck my teeth at anyone in public (I’d have to suck my teeth at myself anyway based on that standard!) What gets me is when people use their fetishes to make themselves sound superior. I don’t think a liking for Asian women/white men/black men/white women is inherently noble. It’s really on the same level as a liking for large breasts or large thighs or leather boots or weird inflatable rubber animal sex. It’s not anything to be especially proud of, or endlessly talk about in front of other people as if it makes you smarter or better than they are. Yet SOME people think their sexual preferences, when it comes to race or color, means that they are superior human beings possessing a truly refined taste. Your tastes are nothing of the sort… they’re just a mish-mash of media images, evolutionary directives, family upbringing, conscious choice and sheer randomness.

I don’t like defining fetishism. It’s an overdetermined word with too much anthropological and psychological baggage. Good preference versus bad fetish, it’s too hard to draw a line without policing people’s sexuality. My own standard is simpler. Are you rude about your fetish/preference, or polite and discrete? Do you regard it as a universal law and something to be reproduced in media images as much as possible, or can you establish a critical distance from it?

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 11:50 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

I just want to add that classic racial fetishists… e.g. “I would never date an Asian man” or “I prefer white or light-skinned women” seem like the chief offenders for arrogance and rudeness and nastiness.

However, sometimes same-race advocates can get pretty nasty as well, since they often view multiracial people as “mistakes” who should never have been created.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 12:00 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

Last addition… I forgot to congratulate Latoya. Good handling of a delicate subject. You’re getting criticism from some very diverse fronts, which indicates you’ve given an interestingly balanced perspective.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 12:05 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:

@ Bestboy–thank you so much for letting all of us get up in your bizness.

@ Latoya–I reiterate what others have said: this post was brilliant! What I appreciate the most is how you simply didn’t just sit in judgment of your friend’s romantic/sexual choices, which is where I think a lot of threads on IRs tend to disintegrate. You dissected the reasons behind your own upset and concern about BB’s choices. What fascinated me the most is reading how this cocklebur agitated your struggle to walk the talk of your anti-racism beliefs.

@ S&S–damn, friend, yours is the most coherent critique of Latoya’s piece I read on this thread. My favorite part:
So while I see how it can be easy and helpful to say that love is love and you need to worry about your p*ssy and your’s alone, and old boy will screw who he wants, etc… let’s not forget that this issue has legitimate impacts on different areas of society. In the media, in movies, in television. In politics.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶
PaulPortland wrote:

atlasien wrote:

“First, I just want to say, PaulPortland, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for bringing a thoughtful and honest perspective about Asian male issues without attacking Asian women en masse and blaming feminism (unlike a vocal subgroup Asian-American men who often comment on these types of threads).”

Thanks for the shout-out. I know exactly what you mean when it comes to IR dating discussions in the Asian-American community. Things oftentimes get ugly, but fast, and in the process, the dead horse gets whipped some more (poor horsie). As an Asian-American man who was born and raised in these here United States, I can definitely empathize with the self-esteem/ invisibility issues that, I think, often trigger these highly emotional responses from the sub-group of AA men you mentioned. I went through it myself growing up, and I’m still working through it (both the self-esteem stuff and the knee-jerk negative reaction towards AF/ WM relationships). However, I think the least productive way of confronting identity/ marginalization issues in one group is to resort to oppressing and demonizing another group of people purely because it gives you a sense of (false) agency. Listen, as an Asian-American man, I want to see Asian-American women kick ass, take names, and be all that they can be.

The IRR disparity discussions cannot be about trying to shame Asian-American women into conforming to some kind of sexist notion of group solidarity. It has to be about challenging the hierarchy of desire at a much broader level. Because, you know, if my wife and I ever have a daughter, not only is she going to know that she is the equal of any man, but she’s going to know that she’s as beautiful as any women.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
JD/ formerly J wrote:

Yeah S&S I loved your critique….

It is funny that we are discussing this while on the other thread they have a lightened and blondified within an inch of her life picture of Beyonce.

It is almost like this mind-fuck for Black woman…
Even when you think you are beautiful and deserve to be loved you don’t count for much until you are a Blonde….well then…

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 2:43 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:

Thanks LaToya for saying more eloquently what I have said (and been villified for) in other posts. I am 49 and its sad that this is what has evolved since the 70s when I was in HS and college. The result of this behavior in real life is women my age who have not married and will never have children unless they adopt. We have all had the BM look away or ignore you if you speak as if speaking meant you were proposing. In my age group very few WM are running after us. We carry the baggage and did the work of the post civil rights movement from the 70s onward. But I too was involved in the movement and still have my inclinations towards Black Nationalism and the diaspora. I too am working on being open to a relationship with a WM. My first boyfriend in HS was white and he proposed to me by saying “Lets get married and have little zebras.” Needless to say, I did not marry him but it was primarily b/c he was not college bound and my parents indoctrinated me that I was going and I was going to be the best so I could come back and help those in my community. This is where the BM/BW relationship and concept of Black Love (Soul Love) comes from. Becuase we do not see those who do not look like us commit to the “Uplifting of the Race” This idea has been promulgated from Frederick Douglass to Booker T Washington, to WEB DeBois to MLK to Malcolm X to now. If I could meet a WM who can deal with my politics and my commitment to Black people then fine, I’m open. But I have been in the relationships that ended when it came time to meet the parents, or be invited home for dinner, or they found out, I do not like threesomes, or whatever. I don’t suck my teeth, but I do get somewhat disgusted when the woman is less than substantive.
I call it JBW qualifications. (Just be white). She can be ugly, ignorant with no teeth, (see Jerry Springer) and the brotha will have a laundry list of why a BW is unsuitable.
The real deal is this has been going on since the 70s. 30 years is a long time to be in the “Not Good Enough” category. I’m glad LaToya raised the issues because its not been “obsessed on too long” in the real world its translating into one racial group of women not having partners for life. That translates into one group of women not having families, not having what other women are “entitled” to have. (Note quotes). Dan rails against you because he is ONE WM in a happy relationship with a BW. Good 4 him. But you have right to not be called a hypocrite by choosing to want to be with a BM. I married a man who was Blacanese (Black Japanese) as are my first cousins who also married BM. I learned Japanese, he did not, but I also had the kids in Jack n Jill and we attended a Black Church which was the bulk of their social life. They also had some friends at their elem sch which was 98% White and Asian (hence the need for Jack and Jill). But I don’t know if I had married a WM, if he would understand the need for Jack and Jill and why I totally support the goals of my sorority Delta Sigma Theta and why they still need to exist. LaToya you are in your 20s, there is even more stuff out there when you get into the 40s and 50s age groups. It is sad when you as a BW are trying to beef up your 401K just in case you end up alone in your old age, when you prepare your will to leave your assets to your neice or nephew b/c you have no heirs. Is IR dating the answer? I would say it is AN option, not THE answer, but BM, do need to check their motivation. There is something wrong when you reject all women who look like and are your mother, grandmother, sisters, cousins, aunts, etc.
Let me know when you get that dating site up… I have some referrals.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 2:44 pm ¶
MNC wrote:

This was an interesting post. I read it a few times and had to think on it a minute before I threw in my 2cents.

I don’t really want to go into heavy analysis, but a few things went through my mind as I pondered this post:

-I learned much more about Latoya than her BB in some respects

-What’s Latoya’s relationship to Black Nationalists politics today? I’d love to read a piece where she explores how it affects even her worldview with greater life experience, maturity , and age

-When people state their “anti-interracial relationship politics” for lack of a better term, it always reminds me of a person who is an adamant non-smoker announcing their anti-smoking stance to a group of smokers. No matter how cool they are and how much they tell you they don’t care that YOU smoke, somehow there’s a level of disapproval that always hangs out in the atmosphere.

-There’s a sense that though this piece is about an individual, there’s a broader text that somehow seeks to “force” people in interracial relationships to “understand” that because of the many isms of society, their “love” will never be about just love or event just between them as two individuals. It’s almost like: if you’re going to cross the line you need to be schooled and be real. I know this is the forum for such discussions, but I find that there’s always a didactic/policing element to such discussions that won’t go away.

-As a person in a committed, marriage-bound interracial relationship , I realize that I had a naive view of “dating out” because once things got serious there was more at stake because I realized that we’d have to learn how to address a world that would intrude and force itself on our relationship. More importantly, I learned that no one needs to tell a thoughtful, person in a serious, committed IRR how tough the going can be not because you doubt one another, but because of the intrusion.
-BB totally has more of an immaturity/chauvinism problem that’s being nicely obscured by his blonde air head fetish. I think if he does go brown it will be with a younger girl or someone he feels won’t really challenge him. That’s some old male immaturity ish. The blondes are a nice cover though.
-Why is it that this whole IR thing is presented as being new? I mean the white woman/black man, etc etc I get, but if we exit the American H.A.M, people have been mixing it up for ages. I don’t think we stop to examine the fallacy of race in these discussions enough and how we can work to change the “issues” that IR couples must face with some real practical tools. If we look at how race had functioned as an artificial barrier in this country, we see that the fruits of white privilege have always sought to divide people and keep people apart physically and mentally. There’s a youtube piece with a speech by Elaine Brown where she discusses briefly IRR and how you can go to Walmart and see the poor white guy in his pick up and his “rebel” flag and his poor black wife and their kids shopping together and living their lives. She says in essence they know who they are. Yes it’s complicated, but it also is what it is and the more people start to really live together and really move past the work “socials” and get into each others lives, we’re going to have to stop beating the problem drum and say ok, we’ve done the problem to death now what’s the solution?

Wooo-anyway-that turned into a longer piece than I hoped.

Just some thoughts as I read your post at any rate.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 2:51 pm ¶
Ms. Four wrote:

Latoya, a slightly off-topic request: can you explore the topic of global brown more? I understand what you mean literally, of course, but I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 6:07 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:

Congratulations, Racialicious community, for an overwhelmingly civil and thoughtful set of comments on a touchy topic (hat-tip to moderator, also).

Most of the focus seemed to be on thoughts of the people in the relationships, and thoughts of their age cohorts in the dating pool. What about the influence of parents’ opinions on their child’s choice of the race of casual or serious partners? (that topic sounds like it’s good for another 100 comments at least!)

Are the dynamics of gay and lesbian interracial relationships pretty much the same as for straight IRRs? (good for a few dozen comments, if there are some LGBT - or any - readers left after 200+ comments)

See, not only can we beat a dead horse, but also beat dead donkeys and mules and oxen.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 6:15 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:

Dammit, I’m missing out the best posts!!!!

Latoya, if I’ve never said this before let me say it know I’ve heard great thinkers and read some great writers but you are far and above the best thinker and writer I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing. Thank you so much for putting this out there. I haven’t had the chance to read all the comments but I hope to be able to do that and get back to you.

Oh and I told you whenever you decided to write about would be mind-shattering didn’t I?

peace.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 6:20 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@S & S - Yes, I agree. Great summary of the intent of the piece.

@Horserider -

You seemed to fear loosing face, or the face we know. You worry that we will get worried that you are overtly worried about the worrisome choices of BB (who has been kind to share with us!) but there is no need as you have in great detail, developed your point that his choices are clearly problematic.

I feared derailing the conversation from the path in which I wanted it to go. That happens regardless - each reader brings their own life experience to the piece and that creates enough complications. My goal was to write the piece in such a way people would engage with the whole piece, not just get stuck on one part.

Maybe I will hazard a guess that something about your core beliefs on interracial dating or possibly this ‘black love’ as you call it, has fundamentally shifted and can’t sustain your former beliefs. This is where I sense the struggle.

That’s another post.

@atlasien -

I don’t like defining fetishism. It’s an overdetermined word with too much anthropological and psychological baggage. Good preference versus bad fetish, it’s too hard to draw a line without policing people’s sexuality.

I think it is necessary, at least for the intents and purposes of having a discussion on this site. And I don’t think it is sexuality policing, particularly as sexuality is influenced by societal norms and other factors. People tend to freak out a bit at this topic, because no one really wants to put their sexual preferences under a microscope. But, at it’s core, it’s about having a conversation. If something doesn’t apply to you, it doesn’t apply. Examining something doesn’t necessarily mean you have to reject and denounce it.

@TCS -

Walking the talk is the hardest thing. I am currently asking Bestboy for permission to do a follow up post, so I can flesh some more out. We shall see.

@JD -

Yes, that. It is not the be all, end all, but it complicates how we view things.

@all - I’ll respond to the rest when I get back. (Heading to B-more).

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 7:05 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:

@Latoya
I need to apologize: I was trying to be funny earlier but reading it back I think I just came off patronizing and dismissive. That wasn’t my intention and I’m sorry.

I should have tried harder to add to the conversation–especially when you were so cool about opening yourself up.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 7:07 pm ¶
Dolly wrote:

As a white woman, I totally understand and respect what you are saying. When you talk about seeing black guys dating white girls and it not being about their specific relationship but the “ideal beauty” you don’t fulfill… it’s an absolutely justified feeling.

In my experience, a lot of white guys are just as guilty as your bestboy… I used to work at Subway with this guy who thought that Asian women were far superior to white women for their smallness, paleness, and doe-eyes. He said white women were just too large (fat basically), aggressive, and demanding. Guys like this aren’t interested in love; they’re interested in dating a stereotype.

I guess I kind of feel the same way you did when I see white men married to Asian women. It’s not that I have a problem with their relationship, but I get this feeling of insecurity and sadness, like I’ll never be that pretty and delicate. And, frankly, I don’t like it when black guys approach me and are obviously interested in me for my “white” beauty, because I’ve had that happen too. It’s not a compliment; it’s offensive.

Does anybody remember what happened to true love?

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 7:34 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

@Latoya: I don’t think talk, or judgment, about sexual preferences/fetishes should be off limits at all. I’m pretty judgmental myself. I just don’t think it’s tenable to make those judgments in a self-righteous way (and I’m not saying you’re doing that in this piece). In other words, people can throw stones… as long as they admit they’re living in a glass house.

Fetish versus preference is not a useful distinction for me. I’ve been in way too many hair-splitting arguments about the exact definition of the word. In practical real-life terms, what it comes down to is that a fetish is something non-socially-approved. “I have a preference, you have a fetish”. So “fetish” has a practical meaning, an anthropological meaning that is quite neutral and different from all the other meanings, plus a conflicting variety of psychoanalytic meanings. Freudian theory about the fetish is tortuously complicated, and IMHO, a bunch of hooey.

I’d rather leave the word “fetish” out of it, and just discuss how sexual preferences align with social strictures and hierarchies of race, class and gender… that way it’s a more direct and accessible conversation.

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 8:06 pm ¶
Dolly wrote:

Ooh, something I also neglected to mention in my comment was that Asian American women are not the pretty, servile objects that a lot of white guys make them out to be. So many of them are smart, intelligent, bright, funny, creative, etc. I’m really sorry that point got ommitted from my first post. And I think atlasien makes a good point too; with the huge “anime/otaku” boom, a lot of white guys have started developing this kind of fetish for the Asian woman–and that’s not any better than overt racism. Sorry I didn’t say that beforehand!

Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 10:12 pm ¶
Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:

@atlasien: It’s always a bit weird to me to hear that stuff about Asian women getting messages that they weren’t as pretty as white women, because, from high school, I’ve always thought of Asian women as prettier than me, and that’s been reinforced by knowing lots of guys who also tell me they find Asian women prettier, whose heads noticably turn for Asian women, etc. I feel as if I encounter the Asiaphile side of dating, among white guys, much more than I encounter the reverse.

I don’t think I’m really threatened by it - after all, when I was single I could date guys of other races just as easily as a white guy could, so it’s not as if my dating pool was ever threatened. I just draw the line - for white guys, black guys, anyone - when prefering another race comes with insulting women of your own, or with expecting that you’ll find, elsewhere, a kind of submissiveness that no adult should have to offer another adult. And I don’t assume that until people do things that give me reason to assume it.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 1:42 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:

Regarding “fetish” and AW/WM relationships: Don’t the Asian women who are only interested in white men have a fetish too? Why don’t we ever hear that they do? It’s always the guys, regardless of race. Maybe some Asian women date white guys because they have a prep fetish and there aren’t too many Asian preppy types (there are a few in Toronto, luckily…and almost all are Canadian born). Maybe they find the Asian guys they’re in contact with to be really materialistic and brandmanwhoreish. (with the prospective MILs even worse)…Or maybe they want that ideal “Martha Stewart” household that they don’t feel they can get if they married an Asian guy (really superficial reasons, such as not wanting a soy sauce marinated turkey for Thanksgiving or Christmas…) Maybe this is a topic that Racialicious can discuss some time. I’m getting to the extreme here, but I don’t think we hear enough about the “fetish” from the woman’s side.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 7:51 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

@Lynn: the positive value placed on Asian women in America is really very limited in many ways. A lot of it is based on male sexuality. Women grow up into their self-images based more on what their peers, other women, think of them. Looking at teen and fashion magazines geared toward a general (white woman) audience and count how many Asian faces and models are feature…. it’s much, much lower than their actual presence in the population. Is there a single Asian woman supermodel? I don’t know hardly anything about fashion, but I could name quite a few white and black supermodels right off the top of my head.

And when I was growing up in the 1980s the situation was much worse. The Asian woman I saw most on TV was probably that woman who had the “buy Pearl Creme, secret of the Orient!” commercial. Kung fu movies on Black Belt Theater were pretty much the only place to see positive depictions of Asian women.

Makeup for Asian-American women was also a huge issue when I was growing up. If you couldn’t buy Shiseido, you were stuck with products that looked horrible for your complexion, which makeup companies referred to in disparaging terms like “sallow”. Even clothes can be an issue. I still have problems buying pants that fit me since I fall into the common long torso/short legs Asian body type.

The pedestal Asian women are placed on is more like a weird dunking bucket or revolving door. You’re supposed to be more refined and graceful than white women. You’re supposed to be sluttier, and happier to be treated like a slut than white women. You’re supposed to be completely sexless (nerd, math geek, piano prodigy). You’ll never be as pretty as white women because you don’t have qualities like big eyes or big breasts. You’re prettier than white women. You’re smarter because you’re Asian but you’re stupider because you’re a girl.

The only constant message… you’re always compared with something else, and always objectified.

I think this set of see-sawing messages plays a huge role in eroding the self-esteem of Asian women, making them vulnerable to Asiaphiles, and in some cases, leading them to deprecate Asian men and become self-hating. Young Asian-American women also have the highest suicide rates of ANY group of women of the same age.

SOURCE:

“CNN reports that suicide is the second leading cause of death among Asian-American women age 15 to 24 and these women have the highest suicide rate of any demographic. As early as fifth grade, these young women show the highest rates of depression and suicidal thoughts.”

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this increased suicide risk comes at the stage when girls are beginning to understand their sexuality.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 9:31 am ¶
Jennifer wrote:

@atlasien…..Very interesting and disturbing point. I had read that bit of information before (about the high rate of suicide among Asian women) and what you said about Asian women and their sexuality should definitely be explored more. How do you think that these high rates of depression and suicidal thoughts connect with sexuality? I am asking for your perspective as an Asian-American female. I noticed, as an African-American female, that the high rates of new HIV cases among African-American females definitely has a lot to do with our sexuality and how we see ourselves, our value and our worth in society. So….I guess what I am saying is that this upward trend in the disease among young African American women is only a symptom of a greater problem….

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 10:24 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:

But Altasien, depression in Asian American women probably has more to do with parental pressure in success than anything else. I had issues growing up not because I didn’t think I was beautiful, but because my grades were never as high as Mrs. So-and-So’s kid (they were respectable, though). Nor were my piano playing skills as good - I managed to get up to an “acceptable” level, but I wasn’t concert pianist material. Add that to the fact that seeking out therapy isn’t as widely accepted as in mainstream white culture.

Just a thought.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 10:25 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

Asian men actually have the lowest suicide rates when compared to white and other men in that age group. Poor mental health access for Asian-Americans definitely affects both men and women, but at least in the young age group, women are showing it much more.

I think it’s because although Asian-American men certainly have their problems with sexual issues, the self-worth of men in general is not tied so directly into their sexual worth. For women, the link is much, much stronger.

@Jennifer… I think different cultures/communities/ethnicities handle the same stresses in different ways. E.g. African-Americans have lower suicide rates than white people but often respond to extreme stress in quasi-suicidal ways; some Native American communities have horrifically high suicide rates in response to similar stresses.

Young Asian-American women from some communities face huge pressure to succeed academically at the same time as they’re discovering their sexuality and trying to evaluate their sexual desirability. The two goals are not compatible at all.

We have a lot of positive stereotypes that channel direction in certain ways. For example, teachers often view Asian kids as smarter (analytically), well-behaved, stoic, quiet and passive. We’re rewarded for conforming to those preconceptions, but when it comes to dealing with stress and identity issues, they can be stifling and damaging. We don’t want to be viewed as complainers, so we don’t complain, even when we should.

I’ve always been very outspoken, but I can still see instances where this dynamic affected me. For example, one of my best friends in college was another Asian-American woman, but we never really talked about the childhood problems we both had in school. “I had some people call me names… it sucked…” was the farthest I ever got, and I think my motivation was that I didn’t want to be viewed as weak or a complainer.

I think a lot of the suicide rate and depression issues may be tied to demographics too. Some Asian subgroups tend to scatter far apart in isolated families and are much more vulnerable; some stay very close together and have strong communities.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 11:01 am ¶
Adriella wrote:

Great post!
I’m a Black Woman who was born and raised in Utah. (Yes, there are black folks in Utah) So, I understand this scenario all too well. I grew up in the burbs as Utah is very, no, ALL suburban. I was usually 1 of maybe 50+ Black kids in the whole school from elementary school on thru high school. There wasn’t much to choose from in numbers as far as the Black boys were concerned. And of course, they all had white girlfriends!! It didn’t bother me as much until Jr. High/High School. I tended to be more attracted to the Black boys in my school but they exclusively went out with White girls. But it really started to piss me off when I got to college. If I could get a dime for every time I was passed up by Black men in social settings where I know I was the HOTTEST chic (not the HOTTEST Black chic) in the room, I’d be a rich bitch!! Having 5 brothers, who also only dated white girls, pissed me off but had its advantages. Since I was pretty close with my brothers, they told me a lot. They always had the same story though when I asked why they never dated any sistahs: “I love Black women but Black women have too much attitude…..”, “White girls will let you do WHATEVER” (drive daddy’s BMW, spend her money, sit up in her crib with your boys, and as far as the bedroom-NO LIMITS!!) Ok, so I get that cuz I know damn well you ain’t driving my whip, you most def ain’t gettin a dime outta me and you sho nuff ain’t sittin ya lazy, shiftless ass round my house with your lazy, shiftless ass friends. But most of all, I don’t play the submissive in any scenario. So my response was always “well yeah, keep ya White girls then, cuz that shit doesn’t fly with this sistah.” There’s always been an ongoing joke amongst the small community of Black folks in Utah about how Utah is a “Black Mans Paradise”….if you love White girls! Growing up in a predominantly White state, of course a lot of my friends are White. White girls who loooooove Black men. In Utah, interracial dating for White girls is trendy. Especially when such beautiful mixed babies are the result of that relationship. Growing up, I knew girls who purposely tried to get pregnant from a Black guy, regardless if she was attracted to him, or liked him, simply because she wanted to have a “pretty mixed baby”. A lot of it was rebellion against strict Mormon parents. But mostly because they wanted to play “who’s sporting the cutest mixed baby” game. I’ve dated White men. I’ve dated the rainbow. I have a 6 year old whose father is Dominican. But when it comes down to it, I want to grow old with someone who went through the same shit I had to go through in this life. Someone who’s down to ride and go down in a blaze of glory to protect what’s ours when shit hits the fan for ALL people of color. My significant other also feels the same. We had a convo the other day about self-proclaimed liberal White folks and the “what ifs” of shit hitting the fan for people of color, particularly Black people. His question is “how many of the White folks in interracial relationships do you think would be down to ride for the cause or use their White privilege instead?

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 12:08 pm ¶
Cynthia wrote:

Atlasien,

I don’t understand this lack of desirability/sexuality thing. I may not have had a lot of boyfriends (hey, I’m shy and an only child), but never had issues when it comes to being “picked up” by guys who’re not exactly typical Asiaphile material. And I’ve never thought that I was ugly, either. Just didn’t think I was a “glamourous” type because of my height.

But maybe other women are different?

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
Monie wrote:

I find it interesting that most of the focus is on IR relationships between White people and a person of color, as opposed to IR relationships between people of color. (I understand that was the focus of the post but the comments strayed to include other POC’s, but they were paired with White partners as well.)

What about Filipinas that only date Black men or Boricuas that only date Jewish guys, or African American women that only date Pacific Islanders, or South Asian men that only date Ethiopian women?

How does societal influence play out when the couple are both people of color?

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 1:50 pm ¶
Michele wrote:

Adreilla, don’t you think a lot of your white girlfriends in Utah get their feelings hurt when there union didn’t produce that beautiful mixed baby. I’ve seen a lot of mixed children in my life and most of them are average just like single race people.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 2:24 pm ¶
k wrote:

I know a guy that says the same thing. The first time he told me he liked white girls I couldn’t understand it. He’s Puerto Rican and I thought he would liked more Latina girls but he doesn’t. Anyway, when he told me that I was confused but whatever each person is different. One day we were talking about that again and I understood why he only dates white girls! “White girls do anything you ask the to do” (he was taking about sex). I was shocked, first of all, I never thought that was a stereotype for white girls (I was raised in another country and I always thought the opposite, that white girls were really conservative) but I was so offended as a women. So he only dates white girls because they do anything he wants?? where is the respect he’s suppose to show her? so if other women, of any other race, would also do anything he wants, he would also date them? guys that think like that are so inmature.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶
asha wrote:

Enthralling post! I want to keep reading but, only halfway through the comments, I MUST return to work!

A couple of quick thoughts:
-I can’t remember if you mentioned age in this post, but could there be some element of aging male insecurity to your BB’s behaviour? (ie recent shift to empty-shell girls). When I look around me, I see plenty of men of many colors that seem to regress in their 30s/40s, seeking affirmation of their masculine virility through a trophy girl on the arm. Good to remember how complex the scenario is in addition to the racial component.

-I don’t get the whole “white girl = submissive” stereotype that people have mentioned above. Here in LA, I know many desi men who date white girls because “desi girls are too submissive”. Or more precisely, I do get the stereotype, but it seems there are lots of reverse stereotypes that cancel it out as an excuse. As an example, there’s the stereotype of the submissive East Asian woman, but then there’s also the stereotype of the “Oriental dragonlady”. both of these (and many more) stereotypes are actively at work in insidious ways.

apologies if I have repeated points–i will read the remainder of the comments when i finish working…just loving the conversation!

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 5:23 pm ¶
clawsmoke wrote:

This is amazing. Latoya expends a huge amount of energy trying to dictate how someone else should channel his emotions/lust/etc. She has very specific directions about the color codes of those emotions. Maybe a dumb freewheeling white girl is more fun (for a while) than a smoldering resentful woman of color? What does it say for you and your version of love that your definition of love is so color-coded? So limited by a small genetic variation. We only have one life - why do we have to live it by your (or anyone else’s) color codes?

Let’s say my spirit waited a million years to be born into this earthly life; why would I want to limit my choices of anything on earth? This life, the whole globe, is mine to flavor and sample, to try to taste to experiment; why would I - or your friend - voluntarily submit to your color-coded resentments? Why? Expansion always trumps restriction; drink deep of life, baby.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 10:41 pm ¶
Barry wrote:

Latoya,

I can’t believe it! I read through all 242 comments to your post, (it took me all night and all day) and no one said a thing about world class model - HEIDI KLUM marrying the very Black singer - SEAL! I believe they’ve been married two years now and recently had a child. If the subject is “How Black men are choosing white girls over their Black sisters to date white girls Heidi and Seal’s relationship should be part of the discussion. Heidi, when she was interviewed on Oprah, said she fell in love with Seal when she saw his “package” in a bathing suit. Ms Klum, as a well to do, world famous person,
is not afraid to flaunt her relationship with Seal, in ways, e.g. deep kisses in public and suggestive poses together, that previously would have gotten both of them lynched! As you say, Black men dating white women is ALMOST acceptible, thanks to celebrities like Seal and Heidi, Sidney Poitier and his wife Joanna, and countless other celebrities!

Nevertheless, today, in the North as well as in the South, ordinary Black men are severely beaten and even killed when they are seen riding with , or living with white women. Ordinary Black men don’t live in gated communities or have the security and police protection that celebrities do! Here are a few examples from near where I live. Believe me, I am only scratching the surface:

1) This past October in Oceanside, Long Island, a Black young man Oswaldo Staton was sitting with some of his friends and an unnamed white girl at the McDonald’s. Some white young thugs came up to them and started a fight.
The police were called, and of course arrested only Oswaldo, who was very badly beaten.

2) Then there is the John White case. Mr. White was standing on his own front lawn in Miller Place, L.I., at 3:00 AM with a gun in his hand, trying to protect his son Aaron from drunken high school classmates who came in the middle of the night like the KKK. They accused Aaron of sending threatening messages to a white girl over the internet - When one of the thugs tried to grab the gun out of Mr. White’s hand, Mr White shot him dead! In March, Mr. White was sentenced to 2-4 YEARS in prison for defending his son. Aaron’s classmate later said she made up the story.

3) Only TWO WEEKS AGO, a Mexican man Luis Ramirez who was living with his white fiance Crystal Dillman. and their children in small town Shenandoah, Pa., was beaten to death by local thugs while he waiting near a park for a ride home. Some of the thugs were boys as young as 15.

I don’t have to tell you that Black men are under pressure. Everyday, there is another shooting in the neighborhoods where Black people live.
According to the NY Civil Liberties Union, 469, 000, more than a thousand / day, nearly half MILLION young men, mostly Black and hispanic were stopped and frisked, for no reason at all by NYC police in 2007. If the police happened to find small amounts of marijuana, or other contraband in the young men’s pockets, they are arrested. These searches are only conducted almost entirely in in the Black community. If this number, more than 1000 stop and frisks / day, sounds unbelievable to you, look here:

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-04-29/news/weeding-out-blacks-and-latinos/

As you see, racism is still alive and well in this country, even (or should I say especially) among the Mormons in Utah! Latoya, your Best Boy’s preference for dating white women, may be his way of responding to the weight of racial oppression which he is subject to every day!
Ask him about it!

I have a poem for you Latoya, and for all of your readers who feel slighted / insulted by the poor dating choices of many Black men, as well as as the colorism that is still runs rampant in many our own families where the rule is “Don’t bring home anyone darker than you!”
This poem expresses my feelings as husband to the same Black woman for more than 30 yrs, and father to a Black child.
It is called “The Black Woman’s Smile by Ty Gray El!”

You can watch it on You Tube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPBH57BWhpE

Thank you for facilitating this discussion, Latoya. I especially enjoy your work!

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 11:51 pm ¶
ironicallyshielded wrote:

Hello. Your article was quite interesting. In my opinion, i think people generally date who they are attracted to. I have a black male friend who only date white or hispanic girls. He’s fascinated with their skin tone (he is very dark complected). But I often find myself wondering if he’d EVER date a black female who could possibly be his ’soulmate’. He obviously has a color complex issue but would meeting that ‘black girl’ play a role in changing his “prefrences”? I have MANY different friends of all races. I have a white female friend who exclusively dates only black men. Why? Because she basis her preference off a fantasy and stereotype. She says that black men are sexual “gods” in bed. In most cases, people date outside there race becuase of strcit preferences only. Like “oh i cant date her, she’s not dark (or light) enough.” Ive even heard the “i only date submissive white girls” line from a couple of black males. A beat maker name Polow the Don, made a comment about being the king of white girls and only dating them and not black girls becuase they were submissive. I dont believe in shutting a specific race, or skin color out based on strict prefrences. Its foolish and very narrown minded.

Posted 08 Aug 2008 at 11:58 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:

I wanted to comment before reading the responses. First, Black women have to stop looking to Black men solely as their only option for dating and marriage. Historically Black men in this country have chosen paler and white women when they could do so. Media disparaging aside if we looked outside what was immediate and familiar we could find a world of men who are available and find us desirable. We have to look out for our best interests. Your friend has issues of self-worth, lack of maturity and poor choices so it’s better that he doesn’t choose other WoC to date and further malign. He is not suitable. We need to look for quality men period.

Posted 09 Aug 2008 at 1:09 am ¶
Holly wrote:

Honestly, I think you could take out all the references to interracial dating in this piece and still reach the conclusion that “Bestboy” is a misogynist. That might be what’s making you so uncomfortable.

Posted 09 Aug 2008 at 6:51 am ¶
lm wrote:

LP, this is my first comment here on this post only because I didn’t know this post was up.

But I’d have a lot more sympathy for Asian men on what they claim to be the flip side of this issue — if, whenever I asked them, they said that they were actually amenable to dating Black women, in the face of this apparent rejection by other Asian women in favor of Caucasian men.

Now, I know that the plural of anecdote is not data.

But I’ve never heard one of them say he was interested in dating Black women.

Not. One.

Posted 10 Aug 2008 at 11:04 am ¶
Jorge wrote:

Great post, I have been a reader of racialicious for about a year now. You have the same kind of feelings that my sister had during her single days.
She did not have any problems with EODs (Equal Opportunity Daters) but took issue with Black Canadians males who exclusively dated White women.
I am a first generation Black-Canadian. My parents (Mom is Black and Dad is a mix of Black, Indian and Spanish) immigrated from the Caribbean and we lived in a very White French-Canadian area. There were very few visible minorities (Canadian term for POC) around. In my home town, all dark-skinned
people were called Blacks (including dark-skinned Indians). This may be surprising to many but I had a pretty plain childhood. Occasionally, there was the
obvious racist incident but unfortunately, I learned “to deal it with it” from an early age.
According to my parents, many of my uncles and aunts came to the country with the belief that Whites were better looking and “acting White” (whatever that means)
is a sign of class. Unfortunately,that mind set is not uncommon amongst Dominicans and other Islanders.
Those who came to Canada single, almost all ended up marrying or co-habitating with White or light-skinned Latino women/men. Those who came married had kids whom
to the exception of one of my cousins all ended up marrying White or light-skinned Latino men/women. I honestly think that in the case of many of my cousins, their
choices were strongly influenced by their parents inferiority complex and Canadian society that still associates “Canadianness with White”. What do you expect kids
will do when their own parents say things like “it’s good to marry White because the kids will look nice and have good hair”, “we should all put milk in our coffee because it is good for the race”. One of my aunts told me that a man with my level of education should not marry a darker-skinned women (i.e my current wife). I left the room and have not spoken to her since
(that was thirteen years ago). Personally, I am married to a dark-skinned Indian women and during my single days, mostly dated visible-minority women. I cannot count how many times during my single days White women would approach and tell me things like “You speak French/English very well”, “What are you mixed with because you do not have Black lips/nose”,”You act so White”, “is it true what they say about Black men?”. Such comments were an absolute turn off and I would usually either walk away or make a “smart ass” comment.

Who people decide to date is their personal choice but the interracial dating with Whites that I have observed in my family often was hiding some kind of deeply seated inferiority
complexes that was past on from generation to generation. Again I am describing what happened in my family and it does not necessarily reflect on others.

Posted 10 Aug 2008 at 5:31 pm ¶
mags wrote:

I’m a white girl and trust me, I don’t feel at all hopeful I could ever be White Beautiful. I’ve never been attractive to any men (thankfully, excepting my [Asian] husband, also the only guy I’ve ever dated).

I don’t think we’re quite as different as you think we are.

Your IBM doesn’t sound so ideal if he goes for stupid boring women because they’re pliable, why do you want to pawn him off on some poor black woman??

Men are stupid, colour seems to have very little to do with it, IMO. Most of them just want the Beautiful girl. And I don’t want them if that’s what they want. Nuts to that.

Posted 10 Aug 2008 at 8:14 pm ¶
Sonya Alexander wrote:

Great post, Latoya. When brown people realize that the images of beauty that are projected to the world are really coming from a source of insecurity, they will wake up. When that tall, skinny blonde feels she needs to get lip injections, butt implants, hair extensions, fry herself tanning, etc., how beautiful can she really feel?

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 8:38 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

@lm:
I’m not sure where to place the bulk of the blame for the lack of AM BW pairings. I think it’s because both AM and BW are feel very strongly about marrying within their respective races and are reluctant to date interracially. The reasons for approaching dating this way aren’t neccessarily invalid. I just think they’re impractical if your goal is to actually to get married before you hit 40 (more of an issue for women).
So yes, I do think that there is a reluctance to date non-white non-asians especially black women on the part of asian men. There’s also the flip side that most of my female friends (POC and non-POC) have told me that they aren’t in general attracted to Asian men, although a couple of them aren’t attracted to black men either. So I think both AM and BW have trouble with being considered suitable mates and need to get over their hangups about at least the possiblity of dating each other.
I think another weird phenomenon is how celibacy is profferred as a legitimate “3rd option” for both populations and it really bother me. For black women it seems to come more from churches to “wait on the Lord” to send them a suitable black man. That never sat well with me because it seems like a bum rap that as a BW (with all the extra work that comes along with it) you get to be celebate for years on end because other people don’t like you enough to marry you, because you’re black. I think that if God really, truly wanted me to be celibate until I found a husband, he’d come down from heaven and make it so that black women aren’t on the sucky side of the marriage statistics. That’s just how I feel.
For Asian men I think it’s more of a stereotype thing that they’re naturally asexual and should be completely fine being alone and celibate their whole lives. Or maybe it’s a partially due to culture that it’s better not to marry than to marry interracially. I’m not sure about that side of it.

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 10:26 am ¶
PaulPortland wrote:

lm wrote:

“But I’d have a lot more sympathy for Asian men on what they claim to be the flip side of this issue — if, whenever I asked them, they said that they were actually amenable to dating Black women, in the face of this apparent rejection by other Asian women in favor of Caucasian men.

Now, I know that the plural of anecdote is not data.

But I’ve never heard one of them say he was interested in dating Black women.

Not. One.”

I’ll be the first to admit that there’s plenty of racism on the part of Asian men when it comes to dating Black women (or any non-white PoC aside from Asian women). A lot of it is culturally transmitted from their parents’ generation, and a lot of it is succumbing to white standards of beauty perpetuated in the mainstream media.

However, there’s also a sense among some Asian men (I can’t speak for Black women) that this push for AM/ BW pairings sounds very condescending. It’s almost like the “cool kids” saying, “Since no one else wants you two groups, why don’t you guys just fuck each other and leave the rest of us ‘valued’ members of the dating pool alone?” Granted, this is a very misanthropic and pessimistic way of viewing AM/ BW relationships, but for some of the AW or WM or BM or WF who promote this particular pairing, the subtext seems to be there.

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 2:39 pm ¶
Rastaman wrote:

People who date stereotypes are not exclusive about race at all. I am a black man who has broken up with more than one woman because they were more interested in my type than me. It usually comes to a head when they claim that you changed when the truth is they never really knew you at all. Many of us have commodified our dating partners with branding and shelf life. So why are we surprised that we make them also disposable.
Being over 40 and never married, I now encounter the “you must be gay” or “you must date white women” branding phase of my life. But my answer to these questions is to state that I am an “irregular”. Those of us who buy irregulars are always willing to make alterations most others insist on everything being standard.

The one thing my experience has taught me to date is that issues of poor esteem crosses gender lines. We just happen to pay much more attention to it in women due to victimization and don’t immediately realize that men like IBM play out their esteem issues in the dating world. Making choices that they believe make them whole or more admirable.

Its just a different scale but we all trying to make weight.

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 2:54 pm ¶
stephanie wrote:

soooo its not unblack- its white. I do not get this. The man will never be your boyfriend, yet you weigh in on his choices- interesting. I could understand the concern for his emotional well being, his own pride; but focus on that- not the color of the people he dates. Dating outside your race (read whites) is only bad if it is bad. If you are well adjusted and your partner is well adjusted it is good. And no, I do not believe dating whites means you harbor self loathing. Maybe you are willing to lose bb to another black woman, or a hispanic- but not a white woman? look inside

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 4:39 pm ¶
Michelle wrote:

Paul from Portland, that is a really good point!

I never thought about it that way. I get it.

I went to the ER a few weeks ago and snuck out without being discharged because it was taking too long and I hate hospitals. As I escaped to my car I heard a voice saying “Sneaking out are we?” I stopped sneaking, mid sneak, to turn around to a very nice EMS worker jogging up to me. He was Asian. Very cute. I am Black. It took me five minutes into the conversation to realize he was trying to holla. Why? Because I have never been hit on by an Asian man, in my life. He actually asked me out on a date! I couldn’t help but feel myself because, I reasoned, I must have been looking my very flyest for an Asian man to want to take me out on a date! Of course my training kicked in and I questioned my own racial thinking. Did I just stereotype all Asian men in one fell swoop? Yup. Did I just put Asian men on a weird pedestal by making their attention the pinnacle of all male attention? Yup. Then my brain started to hurt (literally) and I had to quit.

BTW, bdsista, I loved your comments. As a J and J kid myself, I applaud your insistence on Black culture and community in the lives of your children. It seems that all your choices in the organizations that you belong to reflect your dedication to a strong community.

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 4:51 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

I had a Japanese exchange student hit on me once. Lol, I was mad confused.

I wondered about that condescending attitude from others about the AM/BW hookup that Paul mentioned, and because of that I can’t really begrudge Asain men from being hesitant of being with a black woman because of it. (I’ve been in similar-ish situation of “PoC hookups” with white people; it’s annoying and patronizing as all hell). But if they’re showing symptoms of absorbing the same beauty norms that puts them at the bottom of the manly latter I’m less sympathetic, but again I understand why it would happen (no one can completely escape societal influence, especially if it has nothing directly to do with you).

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 6:22 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

*jeez did I conk out on the word “ladder”.

Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 8:53 pm ¶
Marvice wrote:

I think it’s sad that black people don’t love themselves and have fallen into the trap that society has laid for us. But, one thing is for certain. If this practice keeps going, it won’t be too many more decades before we become extinct. Mission accomplished!

Posted 12 Aug 2008 at 12:39 am ¶
Newbie wrote:

Late to the party, I know. I’m not from the US!

I am white, and please tell me if I’m being annoyingly privileged and making-it-about-me.

I’ve put on a bit of weight lately and my boyfriend tells me he doesn’t notice, and he still finds me attractive. I find those words shallow when I know that every other woman he finds attractive is thin.

Is that anything slightly like how this works? That for all black men like your friend say you are individually beautiful, it seems insincere and patronising when compared to what their actions point to them finding attractive.

I think men don’t understand that it’s not about shallow vanity, or jealousy of other more beautiful women, but that ‘beauty’ plays a much bigger part in our lives than just having a pretty reflection. To be noticed, given better jobs, treated better, let off parking tickets…

I don’t know where I’m going with this - I just loved your essay and I hate that you’re hurt. I’m not trying to compare it to mine - I do see the huge gap between “try harder” and “never” - I just hate, hate the idea that that message in any form is being hammered into women.

Posted 12 Aug 2008 at 9:34 pm ¶
Perry wrote:

As a first time visitor to your blog, I admire what you’ve written, and have bookmarked the page. But I take issue with your reference to
“brown people.” No, “brown people” didn’t come up with the system of Racism as we know it today, in this country and with our planet’s continents, but to earmark the groups of people who don’t fit into the black or white categories is instructive about the dialogue surrounding racism and “antiracism” in this country.

It seems that anti-racist blacks think that, as a black man, dating a Latina is somehow more positive than dating a blonde. I don’t understand why. The Latina probably has as many predjudices and fewer reasons to deny them. That black Americans seem to expect that other “brown” people are going to share some sort of understanding or experience is only going to lead to more disappointment and resentment. Because of the precedents in racial identity, there is a dichotomy set where someone is either white or a person of color. I know that most other middle easterners I know, like myself, find this label to be degrading and misleading. Furthermore, that the community which controls racial dialogue in this country is the oldest minority in the country (”whites” shun the discussion) embraces the dichotomy is confounding. Being proud of blackness and embracing a dichotomy are two different things. I can leave all that alone, mind you, but to expect “brown people” to buy into it as well is infuriating.

If my response seems strong worded, I apologize. My campus was very starkly divided along racial lines, and I happened to be caught in the middle. As an Iranian boy who grew up in white suburbs, race never happened to be much of an issue. Some complete degenerate would, on occasion, say something stupid but usually they were dismissed as, well, a degenerate. When I got to college and had no desire to take part in “anti racist” activities, I was immediately labeled as some sort of anglofile.

Should the subject of race come up in the context of dating, I wouldn’t call it irrelevant to my life. There is a definite pecking order in the gay community. Let’s face it-the gay community has a very white face on it. I know I am not European. But I don’t like being “othered” either. It’s the same as being labeled as “colored,” as far as I’m concerned. And why should I be okay with that? My entire life experience in this country has led me to expect more. There are certain things that a white American will never understand about me. A black American is equally unqualified to understand them. So why should I be encouraged to go out with someone simply because they’re “brown,” or a “person of color?”
Not fair. I know what beauty standards are working against me. I know what’s prized and what (my hairy shoulders, for instance) is detested.

So basically, I understand the point of your argument with Bestboy. European and African Americans have a very well understood history in this country. But such situations cannot be extended to all other “brown people,” such as the Latina you had mentioned sitting across from him.

I hope some of this made sense.

Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 11:25 pm ¶
lm wrote:

However, there’s also a sense among some Asian men (I can’t speak for Black women) that this push for AM/ BW pairings sounds very condescending. It’s almost like the “cool kids” saying, “Since no one else wants you two groups, why don’t you guys just fuck each other and leave the rest of us ‘valued’ members of the dating pool alone?” Granted, this is a very misanthropic and pessimistic way of viewing AM/ BW relationships, but for some of the AW or WM or BM or WF who promote this particular pairing, the subtext seems to be there.

Paul -
First, thank you for taking the time to respond.

With respect to the last sentence in my quote of your statement above, I’d submit the point of contention is this:

Why are you so invested in what they think about you anyway? As opposed to making up your own mind about what you think about relationships without over-investing in what those groups - assuming you’re an AM - think about your relationship choices??
I’d say that statement says waaaaay more about whom YOU think are the “more valued” members of the “relationship pool” than anything.

Which underscores my original point.

Now in an ideal world/forum (:D) — what I’d really like to get to is why you think what you appear to think.

Bringing unconscious attitudes into conscious light is one of the things IMO that Racialicious is really about.

What was the critical thinking analysis that appears to have led you to the “value” choices you’ve made as far as who is “worth more” on the relationship market? Have you consciously thought about it at all?? Ever??

(And here when I say “you” I’m not speaking specifically — or at least, not only — about you personally, so please don’t feel (too) defensive. I pose the question here not just to you, but to ANY man whose principal relationship paradigm is a shrug and “I can’t help what I’m attracted to” and/or “I’m not influenced in my choices by the media or any other outside influence” — without any real, honest, analytical look at WHY or HOW those got to be his decisionmaking bases.)

BTW - yes, gentlemen, you are specifically targeted by advertisements and images not only because you are more susceptible to visual stimulation than the average woman, but also because your corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres of the brain, is (generally) less active than womens’, making you not only less able, but less willing to critically, consciously, verbally deconstruct the visual messages you’re receiving. (You think it’s more effort — and, at first, it is — but so is racing cars and snowboarding. It’s like any other facility; you have to practice.) And if you think there is no such thing as a visual message, you are really deluding yourselves. You may want to chew on that for awhile.

“I find it interesting that most of the focus is on IR relationships between White people and a person of color, as opposed to IR relationships between people of color. “

Monie, I wish that were not the case. I wish there were more focus on that. To me, it feels so much like having a feminist discussion about how some disruption affects women and men jumping in with, “Well, the way this issue affects men is …”
1) Dear Power Majority: It is NOT Always About You.
2) Dear Power Majority: P.S. Honestly — Do You Remember Anyone Asking You Whether the Most Important Thing with regard to this issue x — is How YOU Are Affected??

“How does societal influence play out when the couple are both people of color?”

If they are too sensitive to “what other people think of them”, like Paul seems to be, they’re going to think they’re being “condescended to” — as opposed to expending best efforts to block out, in their own heads, whatever the “Caucasian majority” might think of their relationships, and perhaps consider double-minority relationships as a source of strength and additional perspective in dealing with what goes on in a world shaped by that “majority”, such as it is.

Make of that what you will.

Posted 04 Sep 2008 at 2:21 pm ¶
lm wrote:

“I was reading a post on a comic blog about a black guy who was getting heckled by three black women because he was dating a white woman. His response? “Did I see y’all at Comic Con?”

And my response to him would probably be:
“Did you look for me?”

Posted 07 Sep 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶
Kymberly wrote:

I’m currently dating a black man, and I’m white… and I find it entertaining to see ppl on the white side, and the black side give us looks because we are together. I feel like the movie “save the last dance” with Julia Stiles. I dont see why its such a big deal for interracial dating. My grandmother told me when I was 12yrs old that if I ever dated a black man she would disown me….I feel sorry she feels this way, and anyone else that shares her opinion…you cant help who you fall in love with, and I’m not gonna change myself to fit into societies standards.

Posted 21 Sep 2008 at 7:41 pm ¶
Ange wrote:

LT,
This is was on point. While I haven’t been bff with that strain of black dude, I definitely have seen it and sometimes have to shake my head.

I purposely avoid those kinds of friendships because I’m not interested in cleaning up the racial dramedy after the breakup. Nor do I think I should be some guy’s racial filling station.

My own romantic relationship history is complicated because of race, gender, size and orientation (one more square and it’s bingo)

My current partner is white (Jewish, though I feel really weird putting that out there, like somehow he’s a less problematic white person!) and we do have a great relationship which and he is on point about anti-racist work and privilege and we are trying to work through this.

I didn’t think I’d be into someone like him, even though I had a huge crush on Jeff Goldblum growing up (though the boyfriend is more of an Adam Arkin type). Still I thought I’d end up with my Dorian Harewood or my Courtney B. Vance and that would be that! It didn’t work out that way and I still mourn that in some way and a lot of what you wrote resonated for me, particularly the black Jesus comment. Saul Williams on a plate of gravy please.

This shit is complicated and I really admire and appreciate you writing about this. I feel like there just not enough out there on black female sexuality, desire and all that jazz and just having something else to read and reflect on (even though it’s painful and deep) is really helpful.

Posted 22 Sep 2008 at 12:51 am ¶
Matt wrote:

Latoya,

This was a very interesting, very honest piece. There is so much good discussion going on here, and I wish I had the time to read the entire thread above. Thanks to bestboy for agreeing to let you start this debate.

I must admit that your article fires me up. I remember having a discussion with a Chinese friend who said she couldn’t tell her Filipino ex-boyfriend (who she was still friends with) that she was currently dating a white guy, as he would be angry about her dating a white guy. I commented that this was racist on his part. She responded that no, her boyfriend just wanted what was best for her. So I proposed another situation. If her current boyfriend’s family dissaproved of her due to her being Chines, would that make them bigoted racists? Yes, obviously, she replied.

I realize there are dynamics here - the ideal of female beauty in Western societyt being strongly shifted towards white women, etc, etc. But that does not make my friend’s belief that she is taking a “step down” by dating non-brown any less racist. I agree that we need to fight against a standard of beauty that put one particular group of women with certain physical features as desirable above all others. I also believe that we are moving (albeit painfully slowly) in the right direction on this one - there are more and more beauty alternatives appearing in our society.

Another example - when one of my friends (blond hair, blue eyes) started dating a girl who has similar blond hair and blue eyes, a Filipino friend of mine commented that they were the “perfect aryan couple”. I found this funny, as the girl was Russian and my friend was of Irish extraction - both groups Hitler’s arayan creed had denoted as inferior and scheduled for destruction in the Nazi new world order.

3rd example - My friend used to date a fellah who was half Latino and half Nova Scotia Catholic. His mother (very devout and somewhat socially conservative) used to say that her son should really date either Latinos or Cape Breton Catholics, as they would know how to properly “take care” of him. Presumably she meant in the taditional patricarchal Catholic mold. here we have a sterotype of a demure and obedient Catholic girl, and here the Patriarchal Catholicism trumps ethnicity and race, or at the very least works alongside it.

As you say in one response, this situation has a million shades of gray.

I have a problem with ANY men that continually date blonde-haired bimbo sterotypes. Believe me, this a problem with white guys too. I’ve known plenty of white guys that instead of going for an intelligent, attractive woman of any race, have gone for the blonde-haired bimbos. They generally don’t end up any happier than it sounds like bestboy is.

Of course, there are plenty of men out there who don’t slavishly follow such narrow standards of beauty. If I were to say what physical type is more likely to turn my head on the street, I would have to say dark hair and features - from sterotypical Italian and Greek looks to black, asian, desi and Metis, to name a few (Disclosure: I am white myself - of Irish Catholic and Scottish Protestant. I don’t think this is a fetish, as I have had crushes on and dated girls from many ethnic backgrounds (and of all hair colours, including blonde).

Ultimately, if a girl is unintelligent and uninteresting in conversation, and if I have nothing to connect with them on, it doesn’t matter what she looks like. I will be moving on after five minutes of chat. If she’s interesting and engaging, I am not going to disregard her due to her race or the colour of her hair.

Unfortunately, there are lots of guys that don’t consider personality when looking for a girl. You yourself have identified bestboy’s problem as not that he dates white girls, but that he almost exclusively dates vapid blond sterotypes. While the racial element is impossible to avoid, it seems to me that the solution is not that he has to date brown girls - the solution is that he has to date girls that aren’t parodies of a stereotype, that are, like his high school dates were, full of personality.

I would argue that issues of sexism seem as or perhaps more important than issues of race. Instead of saying: “Why not brown girls?” why not say “Why not a girl with a backbone and personality?” If that’s an outspoken feminist Pakistani-American (or Canadian or whatever) with a degree in law and a background in sociology, great. If that’s an outspoken white brunette Irish-protestant feminist with a degree in law and background in sociology, isn’t that alright too?

Posted 24 Oct 2008 at 1:07 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Matt - If that’s an outspoken white brunette Irish-protestant feminist with a degree in law and background in sociology, isn’t that alright too?

It is. A piece is structured to have the conversation I wanted to have, and I wanted this one more or less on the conversation about beauty standards. But yes, a white girl with personality is totally fine. I said this way upthread, but these kinds of conversations happen on two levels - the large, societal one and the personal, day to day things. I met a really charming girl at a nonprofit fundraiser who would have fit my bestboy well - she was fierce, independent, similar career that he chose, great style sense, a little shy but cool. However, she was blond/blue eyed. And yet, sometimes, that stuff doesn’t matter so much. Right now, Bestboy is doing some inner work, so I’m not interested in throwing him off that. But I know she and I hang in the same circles, so I’m sure there will be other opportunities to make an intro when the time is right.

Posted 24 Oct 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶