Interracial Dating: Grudgingly Heading Toward Acceptance

by Latoya Peterson

This is my second contribution to the interracial dating series. I originally wasn’t going to contribute after the intro post as my experience in this area is extremely limited. But, since we aren’t having the conversations I want to have, I’ll take a crack at it. I’m going to come off as a jerk, and I’m okay with this. Feel free to pose any questions you like in the comments, but I am going to ask that you refrain from making assumptions about my friends. If you want to know something, ask. - LDP


My best friend dates white girls.

It’s still painful for me to type that. Just the words, staring me in the face on the screen is like me pouring salt on a five year old wound. How the hell did that even happen?

Things weren’t always this way. Back in high school, I started kicking it with the guy who would eventually become best male friend (hereafter referred to as Bestboy). At the time, we bonded over a mutual love of reading, rock music, and dying our hair ridiculous colors normally only found in packs of Kool-aid. Bestboy was busy exploring his identity as a burgeoning black intellectual with a skateboard and back then his common refrain when it came to relations with the opposite sex was that he “dated the rainbow.” He found my insistence on dating within the race puzzling, I found his dating outside of it equally strange. But, as adolescents are wont to do, these minor disagreements were laid aside in favor of discussing more pressing matters like how many people could fit into a Honda Hatchback on the way home from HFStival.

Time passed, we graduated, and me and Bestboy kept in touch. Our hobbies grew in the same direction and we reunited around mutual adoration of art and anime. There was only one thing that became a quiet little undertone to many of our conversations. Over the last few years, the “rainbow” Bestboy spoke of had faded into one color: white.

Now, at this point, many of you may be wondering why I care about these things at all. Why do I care who my best friend dates? What does it matter the race of his partner as long as he is happy?

In a perfect world, these things wouldn’t matter. Love would just be love.

But the world isn’t perfect and these things do matter.

Love doesn’t occur in a vacuum.

Now, Bestboy still often repeats that he dates the rainbow - until I point out that the last three serious girlfriends over the last five years have all been white. And that most of the women he tries to pick up at bars are white. And most of the women he finds attractive and approaches are white. Specifically, tall, thin, and some variation of blond.

He’ll then point out some random three-night stand as proof that he still does and I’ll point out that his dating habits go beyond the paper bag test - these women could pass the manilla folder test. And since my friend is deeper in tone than I, I tend to look at him skeptically.

At this point, we have a low simmering feud on our hands.

Now, I have never been one to comment on the nature of other people’s interracial relationships. First of all, it’s just rude. I’ve often cringed in horror when I overhead someone suck their teeth at the site of a black man strolling around with a white woman. After all, generally speaking we do not know that nature of someone’s relationship from a quick glance. All that is revealed there are pre-existing stereotypes. So, unless a man is walking around with a tee-shirt reading “Just white girls for me, thanks!” we are not privy to what happened with this particular situation or how they hooked up.

But with this friend, I do know the history. I’ve been there. And as he frequently asks for dating advice, I frequently comment.*

As time passes, our discussions of interracial dating started to have a bit of an edge to them. Bestboy openly admires my relationship with my boyfriend, and I have to choke back a cutting response about black love being sweetest. After his most recent breakup, I found myself seriously considering my positions. It was a train wreck of a situation in which he found that his latest white girl was a closet racist after she made a “those people” remark after attending one of his family functions, which spiraled into a three week long fight about race, sex, and class ultimately ending in their demise. Boyfriend and I sat on the bed, listening to the whole sorrid tale before commenting.

“Stop dating white girls,” Boyfriend said, and I nodded in agreement.

A day or so after that, we were at brunch when he started eyeing the willowy blond waitress.

“She’s cute,” said Bestboy.

“She’s cuter,” I said, indicating a petite Latina with waist-length dark hair who had been seated across from us.

Bestboy gave me a deep sigh.

“Will you cut that out?” he asked with a note of exasperation.

“I will when you start dating brown people,” I fired back.

The comments come to mind quickly - they are difficult to tame.

I recently tried to put my finger on why Bestboy’s dating habits bothered me so much. I have other friends who date interracially and their choice of partner never phases me a bit. So why is it different when it comes to him?

After a little probing, it came to me.

It is the same reason that certain comments cut deep.

Like TAN remarking “and I do have to acknowledge that blonde/white/gold/peach/light turns my head faster than Darkness, even if it isn’t a superlative blonde, peach or whatever” in his discussion of why he is trying to condition himself to like mediocre black girls. Or that one line from “Cupids Chokehold,” that Gym Class Heroes song where Travis raps that his girlfriend has “porcelain skin.” Yes, I am aware of his girlfriend and his biracial heritage. But it still hurts to hear a brown man openly praise a certain skin tone that most black women will never achieve. As a black woman moving through society, these comments aren’t casual or innocent to me. They are not attacks. But they are reminders of what I am not, and what I will never be.

In discussions of beauty - particularly those on women centered blogs - white women can understand being held up to an unrealistic standard of beauty. To be impossibly thin, impossibly blonde, impossibly clear skinned, with a body that defies the law of physics is presented as something that is attainable if you try hard enough and buy the right products, though many women find these efforts to be futile. What most of these conversations do not understand is that when black women pick up these kinds of magazines, or watch advertisements on TV, or popular television shows with popular white actresses, we do not get the message “try harder.”

The message we receive is never.

You will never look like this. Not if you straighten your hair, or lose weight, or work out every single day, or have the perfect body and the perfect wardrobe to match. Even if you fit all those requirements, you’re still “pretty for a black girl.” And if, for some reason, you do not fit these requirements, if your hair is frizzy or curly or kinky, if your thighs and ass will always keep your size in the double digits, if your features are not keen, if your skin tone is too deep, then there are many people who will never consider you beautiful.

They will never see who you are.

I remember reading an online conversation where a (presumably white) commenter had said “Well, every where I go, I hear Black is Beautiful!”

And I thought to myself yes, because that has to be stated - over and over again - for people to begin to believe it. The idea that white is beautiful is so common, so throughly saturated in our society, that is does not need mentioning.

It is just fact.

So, in watching the transformation of my friend’s dating habits, I also wonder about the influence of society. Why is it that now is the time he chooses to date white women almost exclusively? Is it because we are approaching the age for marriage and children? Why is it that the women he chooses to consider long term relationships with are always white?

Occasionally, my black woman rage seeps out and I find myself lecturing him. While I am currently on the sidelines of the dating pool, I see my single black female friends who are gorgeous and talented and ambitious and caring and wonderful remain single while my quirky, IBM** on paper best friend brings by white woman after white woman and I just want to know why.

And then it hits me. I don’t really have a problem with him dating white women.

I do have a problem with the specific white women that he is dating.

Back in high school, we were all learning our tastes. So while he dated a seemingly endless stream of girls, of varying races and ethnicities, they all had a few things in common. They were bold, intelligent, and interesting. They had some physical traits in common, but for the most part, the girls he dated back then were defined by their personalities. I remember one girl dyed her blond hair varying colors to match her mood and wore a piece of hardware on a chain around her neck just so she could tell the boys to “suck her nuts.” The other girls from that era were equally as interesting and colorful and I can remember most of their likes and interests.

Contrast that with the women he’s brought me to meet in adulthood. Bland, wan, boring and uninteresting, they sit silently at the table when we go out and do not engage in conversation. They are uniformly thin and chesty. They are prone to dramatic threats when they are feeling ignored, but are otherwise a silent species intent on staring at their own reflections. They drink too much, too often, and often wake up in the throes of regret about something.

Bestboy once showed me a video from CollegeHumor.com called “Amy at the Club.” In the video, the actress is parodying the legions of (white) women who drink to escape their problems, come off as obsessive and strange, and think sexual contact is a quick and easy substitute for conversation.

I couldn’t laugh at the video.

I saw too many of his girlfriends in that parody.

The only difference is the actress is a brunette and his last girlfriend could hold her liquor.

One girl he dated for two years, and she was a nice, sweet girl.

She was also as boring as wallpaper paste.

Bestboy complained about her lack of stimulating conversation and home body habits often, often calling me in frustration after they would fight. When they broke up, I asked him what he saw in her.

He shrugged. “She cooked. And she let me do whatever I wanted in the bedroom.”

The answer irked me, especially as the answer has repeated itself with other women. It is not the fact that he dates white women, but the fact that he seems insistent on dating a stereotype - and specifically, the stereotype that is often attributed to white women: submissive, sexually adventurous, and easily controlled.

As he started to discuss all the things he had asked her to do sexually- things he asked for just because he could - I felt the angry black woman start welling up again. Is that it? Is that all it fucking is? The grand mystique of white girls boils down to passenger seat blow jobs and a girl who will shut up on command? What the fuck?

In that moment, I could completely understand the teeth sucking that happens, the anger that occurs, why so many black women start getting that familiar pain behind the eyes when they see a white woman and a black man linked romantically. It isn’t just about them, in that specific relationship, at that specific point in time.

It is also what that pairing symbolically represents.

The black man, envy of the world, attractive and in control, shunning his darker sisters for a white prize. The white woman, beauty standard world over and desired by all races of man, able to pick and choose any man for the taking.

And black women, mules of the world, once again pull the short end of the straw. We came up short, again. Lost out to a white girl, again. Have yet another subtle reinforcement that even the men who look like us do not find us attractive. Again.***

It’s enough to make a woman consider kicking her best friend down the stairs.

But, I don’t. I inhale deeply and remember that I am loved, remember that there are plenty of men who don’t act or behave this way around white women, remember that there are some people who were able to navigate the treacherous path of stereotypes and fetishes, and manage to come out with love.

Love.

This thing that is so difficult to find, so fleeting, so elusive that it is hard to begrudge anyone who has found it with anyone of their joy. Their love. Their story.

But as I said before, love does not happen in a vacuum. The influences of societal programming run deep. And when I see Bestboy, the question on my mind most often is not why white women, but rather, don’t brown girls deserve love too?

Why don’t you think you’ll be happy with one of us?

I wonder these things. But more often, I wonder about my friend. He isn’t happy, and with each failed relationship, he feels as though he is moving further and further into being a lifelong bachelor. He occassionally voices his sadness aloud, and I hurt for him. Everyone wants to be loved. I’m just worried he’s looking in the wrong place. He’s looking for the woman society holds as beautiful and desirable, the airbrushed and polished trophy, and not the real flesh and blood women that exist in the world.

Women who know who they are. Women of any race.

And I would be happy for him, whoever he finds, of any race, as long as she suits him.

But until then, old habits die hard.

Another Sunday passes, we’re breaking bread at yet another brunch spot, yet another blond walks by and I find myself subconciously scouting for a WoC alternative.

The blonde passes.

“She’s cute,” Bestboy remarks.

“She’s cuter,” I say, inclining my head to a tall desi girl with a cute short bob and wicked earrings.

Bestboy looks at me and sighs. He’s not ready to admit that my racial analysis of his dating life could have some foundation in the truth. But he does recognize that something is wrong.

“Look,” he finally says, “I’m trying, okay?”

I know how he feels.

In my own way, I’m trying too.

—-

*And yes, I told him I was writing this post.

**Ideal Black Man, for those of you who haven’t seen Something New.

***Yes, I am aware this is not true, black men (and men of other races) rushing to our defense. I am exploring the feeling here.

Trackbacks & Pings

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Comments

  1. Celeste wrote:

    That was excellent, Latoya. I really loved how you broke down the reason(s) for all the anger surrounding this particular type of pairing. It’s the reasons *why* someone has a preference for a certain race outside of their own that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I think that’s why you don’t see a whole lot of socializing between Black/white couples of different gender composition. Their reasons for being their respective relationships too often differ, or at least there’s the expectation that there will be hostility.
    I’m a bit of a hardliner but IMO, if someone *exclusively* dates outside of their race (or even worse, just one particular race outside of their race) despite the presence of similarly socioeconomic backgrounded members of their own race then there’s probably some kind of fetish or otherwise biased thinking at play (with rare exception).

  2. Tim wrote:

    I guess I’m curious to hear more about your “insistence on dating within the race,” i.e., yourself as a black woman presumably dating only black men (or men of color). It seems like this is framed as a triangle of black man - white woman - black woman, with all the attendant history, hurts, assumptions, complications of that triangle. And that makes sense as a starting point given this particular situation (and your own particular triangle w/ Best Boy and his ultrawhite girlfriends).

    But obviously there are all sorts of additional permutations here — the black man - black woman - latina woman is one that’s alluded to, and the black man - black woman - white man is another that’s unstated (maybe with white woman as the fourth leg of that shaky table). There’s also colorism in all its varieties, the specific sexualization of different ethnic groups. If your friend dated only light-skinned black, latina, or east or south asian women, I suspect that you might still have a problem with that, even if it didn’t correspond to the specific relations you find here. And if you have precommitted yourself to dating only within the black or brown communities, that complicates things further, since clearly part of the issue here is your perception of black women being treated as not desirable enough — particularly by black men, but also possibly by white men or other shades of the spectrum.

    I guess what I’m interested in are those nuances — even if you’re experiencing it as stark, fixed, polarized.

  3. Mike wrote:

    My male friends seem to have received their imprinting on what is attractive when they are young. As adults, that imprinting is quite hard to modify and only gets modified through active struggle. As such, it is important to control the messages sent to the young.

  4. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Sounds like Bestboy will either change and find someone or not change and remain alone. If it’s the latter, you can remind him of this posting in a decade or two or three. “I’m so sorry (you didn’t listen to me),” you’ll say sympathetically.

  5. Eric Grant wrote:

    I admire the ways you are poking around at the various sides of this broader topic, from your one specific relationship with a friend.

    I know that for my many female friends from high school and college (most of whom are white, as am I) I felt a particularly intense urge to judge their dating choices. I resisted it, I’m over it, it was all long ago, etc.

    So, I have a question that I didn’t see addressed in the initial post:

    Did you ever have a crush on your friend, way way back, or vice versa? Do you think you have any kind of residual feeling of romantic possessiveness that makes your feelings more intense in this specific case?

    (I am curious, trying to get the full picture–I’m not just phrasing a pop-psych “diagnosis” in the form of a question).

  6. R. Prince wrote:

    Great post. That is the exact same issue I have with a good number of people, not just black men, who date inter-racially. It irks me to find out that they are in search of some kind of stereotype in that person of a different race instead of love, then they wonder why they are unhappy. I keep thinking we may never see an end to stereotyping and discrimination if even the people who are in these inter-racial relationships are themselves adhering to them…you think they wouldn’t but it’s disappointing to find out that they do.

  7. cosmicsistren wrote:

    Loved this piece!! When I was younger I used to get angry when I would see a black guy with a white woman. Now that I am older I realize that meeting someone that isn’t on some bullshit is so hard to find. If you find love in someone of a different race than more power to you. I don’t even look twice anymore. Lately I have started to expand my own horizons because I really don’t feel that I should only date black men. I find that Indian men and Asian men (Dao-Yi Chow!!!) are quite handsome!!!

    Your friend clearly has issues that he is not willing to face. If he wants to just date white chicks then fine. They can have him because he doesn’t sound like he is a good catch anyway (no offense).

  8. truthpoet wrote:

    This was a great post. Its funny, when I was starting college, I believed that love had no color. I was also expecting to finally find my “ideal black man” and I found him, but he wasn’t checking for me. After the first black black guy, I saw perpetually dating white women, I was fine. I was even okay after the 10th, but after the 30th on a campus with only 6% black (people) I became devastated. I have as a black studies major and an academic who studies images of black women in media, I have had many conversations in which I have had to explain, that the reason why it is so hard for black women to see black men perpetually dating white women is because it is a reminder that on many levels, for us, “true” beauty is unattainable. So thank you for putting it so eloquently and it is my hope that people will understand that it is pain that we feel not malice.

    However, in an effort towards thinking about solutions, I will leave you with this quote from Toni Morrison:
    “The concept of physical beauty as a virtue is one of the dumbest, most pernicious and destructive ideas of the western world, and we should have nothing to do with it.” Black is Beautiful is a “white idea turned inside out…Concentrating on whether we are beautiful is a way of measuring worth that is wholly trivial and wholly white and preoccupation with it is an irrevocable slavery of the senses.” However much beauty matters to white people “it never stopped them from annihilating anybody.”
    Perhaps if we could somehow stop focusing on “white” beauty as a virtue, we could avoid this pain altogether. I realize this is centuries of undoing, but I think it is worth a try. . .

  9. Eva wrote:

    I do see your point, but I’ve met men who can’t stand short women, I’m 5′2″ and will never be tall, that mean’s he’s not the man for me. As I once heard, “if the train doesn’t stop at your station it’s not your train.”

    I’m 48 years old and right now I want a man who doesn’t mind holding my hair back when I’m throwing up after getting food poisoning yet again is fine with me. (I’ve had food poisoning about four times in the past four years) I want a man who doesn’t mind going with me to the ER, a man who stays with me while I’m having a surgical prodecure and takes me home. If that man is black, fine, if he’s another race that’s fine too.

    The truth is we’re all going to get old and stuff like race doesn’t mean jack when you’re sick. There are many things to be angry about, but who someone decides to date isn’t one of them for me anymore.

  10. Cynthia wrote:

    Bestboy (hereafter BB) dates these girls because they allow him to do whatever he wants to them? In that case, BB sounds really immature! Maybe he’ll grow up when he hits his 30s. As for his dating white girls: Is it purely a physical thing? Rebellion, perhaps? Is he trying to get back at someone? He might also be going for a “type” that isn’t generally found in other ethnicities. For a long time, I liked very preppy guys who went to specific schools and had specific interests. These guys are mostly white and some are Hong Kong Chinese. I still kind of prefer this type, though current BF is not all that preppy. Basically, if I were to go along with my “type,” all the men I date “out” would be white.

  11. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    I always feel sick deep down whenever I see dark skinned men dating white women, but especially that type of white woman that you described.

    It just irks me too, LaToya, and I thank you for breaking it down in this amazing essay.

    I feel hurt, angry and jealous whenever I hear non-white guys praising white blonde women. It makes me so angry inside, I want to smash bottles and windows.

    I don’t want it to bother me, but it just does bother me.

  12. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Celeste - Yes, that is why his transition rings so strange to me. It wasn’t like this before, in high school - we fell out of contact for a few years, met up again in college, and now things are this way. I am not sure what happened in the interim - he gave me an abbreviated version of what happened. But something flipped the switch from “everyone” to “white, thin, blond, busty.”

    @Tim - I need to address your comment separately.

    @Mike - good point about imprinting, and understanding what is “acceptable” to desire. We should really explore that. I’ll make a note of it.

    @Rob - You know! Obviously, whatever you’re doing isn’t working…

    @Eric - Good question. Funnily, the answer is no. It’s a complex thing wrapped up into the answer I need to give Tim, but there was never anything like that between us. I believe it is one of the reasons that we are still friends (most of the girls I knew then had some kind of sexual contact with him in college that ended badly). There’s always that “what - if” thing, but even that got laid to rest a couple years back.

    We were both single, both horny, and both drunk. We ended up in the same bed - only thing that happened was him farting. Clear enough for me.

    @R. Prince - Exactly. It is almost as if he is trying to pursue the embodiment of white womanhood as presented by pop culture.

    @Comicsistren - None taken. I don’t know what the fuck happens to him in a relationship, he’s all over the map - angry, distant, then loving and waiting to get his heart stomped on. It makes for odd conversations, I tell you.

    @Truthpoet - I feel you. And part of it, I think, is widening the beauty standard so that the ideal woman could be a range of things. And yes, it is hard to keep these kinds of thoughts in check when that kind of dynamic is in your face.

    @Cynthia - Yep, immaturity is a big one in this as well. And I would agree, his type is strong. I know who is going to turn his head at about 50 paces, though he occasionally shocks me by pointing someone else out.

    @Eva - I see your point, but you have made the same comment on every single interracial dating post. On an individual level, you have to do what is best for you. I don’t think anyone will argue that. But there are issues at a societal level that influence how we as individuals relate to each other - and those need to be dealt with.

  13. Ron wrote:

    As a black man, I have literally thousands of friends who fit Bestboy’s experience. A great majority of these friends and associates grew up victims of colorism and self-hatred.

    For example, some dude’s would date latinas, asians, and brunnette whites. The reason being they were attracted to women without broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair. However, most of these dudes still find black women attractive and may date black women on the side.

    I have some buddies who will only date white women exclusively whether or not they are actually attractive to them. Some of the white women they date are not usually attractive to white men because of weight or other issues.

    I have some buddies who will not date black women based upon control issues. They feel that they can control non-black women easier or that it will be less drama in the relationship.

    At one point in my life, I would question their choices but I no longer waste energy trying to probe their choices.

    I have noticed that if you live in a certain region of the country or where there are a low rate of black people then finding black on black love can seem nonexistent. Thus, no models or images of black on black love.

    Some of my friends suffer from some savior/messiah complex when comes to white women that extends to the realm of relationships. These men consider invovlement with white women as a pancea to a successful relationship.

    As they say perception is reality.
    The perception becomes reality in these relationships and men live up to these expectations in these relationships.

    I could go on forever so I am going to stop.

    Note: this is just my limited experience.

  14. Shawna wrote:

    This is really well written. I can understand your concerns for both your friend and for the overlooked woman of color. I hope that Bestboy discovers what it is he wants from a relationship so that he can find a woman who stimulates him both intellectually and sexually, white or otherwise.

    I’ve been very interested in this series of posts. As an Arab American distanced from my Arab heritage, I always looked to the darker-skinned Arab male (like my dad), as the ideal mate. Yet my attraction was only to white-skinned, freckled redheads on the far side of geek. Eventually, I married my redhead, but it took several years for me to stop feeling like I’d missed out on something, betrayed myself and my father by marrying a White American man, no matter how kind or smart he was.

    I wonder how much of that comes from my father’s response to having given up his home country and marrying my mother when there was another woman who shared his faith and culture waiting there for him. The fact that I know these details of his life (sure, he couldn’t go back bc of war, but the woman waited for him for THREE YEARS after she heard he was married in case the marriage didn’t work out despite that my sister was born) surely had an effect on my ideas about marriage within race, class and culture. I just wonder how those three things were transmuted into a skin color and fluency in Arabic.

    Anyway, this post really has me thinking. :) Maybe I’ll address all this on my baby blog (http://www.ainsliebaby.blogspot.com/).

  15. juju wrote:

    Excellent post.

    Perhaps Bestboy’s change in dating choices from “bold, intelligent, and interesting” to “bland, wan, boring and uninteresting” is reflective of a deeper change in his personality and value system. Perhaps this is a good part of what is paining you.

  16. Lisa wrote:

    The porcelain skin thing is what got me. I’m mixed myself, and I’ve dated a decent (although not huge) range of men. I never thought the skin thing bothered me. I thought that I, and the men I was with, were all “above” that kind of thing — “it’s just skin, blah blah blah.” But the last white guy I dated fancied himself some kind of poet. And one day he started talking about the word “pale” and how it was evocative of all things beautiful.

    I snapped. I asked him if my lack of “paleness” made me somehow less beautiful. He got defensive and claimed that I was misunderstanding him, that he wasn’t talking about skin tone but about some abstract idea. But that was it, for me. I started to think about how he would tell me that he “didn’t really think of me as black — just as a person” and what that REALLY meant.

    There were other issues there, too. Because I was the one who pursued him and not the other way around, I found myself always wondering if he would rather be with some skinny blond with “porcelain skin” — like the girl he dated before me. I was his first non-white partner, and I always felt like a silver medal, or a compromise.

    Still, I’m not an advocate of only dating within one’s race. I’m married to a white guy now who loves me, how I am, and who loves black women in general. It’s way different being with someone who is a committed anti-racist than being with someone who considers himself enlightened past the point of race.

  17. F wrote:

    I agree with Cynthia - I think your best friend needs to grow up a bit. He reminds me of someone I know (a white guy) who *only* dates non-white girls for the shallow sexual traits they allegedly possess (in his mind, at least) - he thinks they’re submissive and exotic. But I hope he can see that not only is he doing something that makes him unhappy and sad, he’s also effectively using these women in a way - he doesn’t like them for them, but for what he thinks they are, and that must deeply hurt them.

    I also totally agree about the beauty standards thing. It reminded me somehow of that Vogue India shoot, after it just launched, where they used Gemma Ward as the main model and Bollywood actresses were dotted around like scenery. Gemma Ward is beautiful, but so were the actresses (who are all pale, have straightened hair, green/blue coloured eyes etc anyway), and it seemed to be saying that even in an Indian magazine, they still weren’t beautiful enough. Only a white model was sufficiently beautiful to merit a photoshoot. It was really depressing.

  18. Gothic Guera wrote:

    Sometimes I wonder I have the same issue as Bestboy, I tend to like the skinny pale intellectuals. (Vampires and nerds). It’s interesting because often who we date (and how we date too) reflect our own values . I find my self attracted to men with dark hair, yet why is it I tend to be flirty and sweet to the blond guys? I recall learning that we tend to date people that we find sexually attractive, but if want to marry or to be in a sererous relationship, then we have to change the pattern we think. Is it me or do most cultures encourage women to be submissive? I recall being told by a friend that, I would have to date outside my race since no “Mexican “guy will stand the fact I’m so “stubborn”.

  19. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Tim -

    Whew, good questions. You opened up a whole can of stuff, some of them to be addressed in other posts. The quick and dirty follows.

    “insistence on dating within the race,” i.e., yourself as a black woman presumably dating only black men (or men of color).

    Yeah, I do. Back in HS I was much more militant about this due to how I was raised and social conditioning. Though there was one clear exceptions - one of my (black) friends called me a racist for not giving some guy the time of day because he was white, and I ended up dating him to prove a point. (I use dating loosely - I was twelve and we were officially “a couple” for three days.) That decision actually came back to bite me in the ass later, when another black man I was interested in dating (at age 16) heard about my 12 year old dalliance and gave me shit about it.

    Also, as my politics changed, my preferences did. So coming from a black cultural nationalist framework, the only men I could even perceive as attractive were black men. (At this time, a friend tried to set me up with a really hot Chinese guy, that I turned down because I didn’t see him that way. Every time I look at a yearbook, I kick myself.)

    I dated a Dominican dude for a hot second, but that was a different kind of situation.

    Later, as I transitioned out of black cultural nationalism into embracing the idea of a global brown, I’ve been able to find men of other races attractive. My politics influence my personal. (That’s another post in itself.)

    But I still don’t date white men. To me, that’s the line in the sand that I don’t want to cross. Too much political baggage for me to start unpacking that. I don’t begrudge others, but I think I have a better chance of being in a lesbian relationship than seriously dating a white man. (Two posts on that, one on politics influencing your preferences and one on discovering why white men aren’t attracted to me.)

    If your friend dated only light-skinned black, latina, or east or south asian women, I suspect that you might still have a problem with that, even if it didn’t correspond to the specific relations you find here.

    Yes, I would, but for different reasons. Same thing with black men who only date light skinned women. (I should ask my boyfriend to guest post - he dates black women of all shades, but was subject to ridicule when he lived in New Orleans for dating anyone considered “too dark.”)

    I guess what I’m interested in are those nuances — even if you’re experiencing it as stark, fixed, polarized.

    There is a lot of nuance, but it is difficult to find writers on those. I can write about this friend - he’s given me permission and is more amused by online critics than anything else. But I am hesitant to share experiences not my own and those of my friends who aren’t used to being that personal with strangers.

    I painted this particular situation as polarized to prove a point, because that’s how this specific thing plays out. Bestboy brought by a mixed girl and I leaped for joy - not just because she was a PoC (and identified that way), but because she was also smart, talented and driven. There are a lot of levels to this one, so it was easier to distill it down just to the racial aspect.

    Anything else you want me to elaborate on?

  20. Eva wrote:

    @Latoya: I do make the same comment because it needs to be said. I think age has a lot to do with this. There are issues on a societal level that should be dealt with. When I was in my 20’s, I dated one white loser after another, (the only good thing was that they were, like me, sober) I was under that silly belief that “it’s different with THEM.” Goodness, was I silly, glad I never married any of them I’d be up a creek today.

    Then I realized, I needed to stay away from LOSERS, period and then I learned as my mom always said, if you marry hair, hair is all you’ll get. If BB wants to marry white, white will be all he’ll get.

  21. Jasmine wrote:

    I love this post…and I was *totally* thinking about Travis and “porcelain skin” as well as “Viva La White Girl” last night. I still like both songs, and despite whatever he claims “Viva La White Girl” *really* means - I can’t help but to be truly rubbed the wrong way by him. Such a good group but both “Cupid’s Chokehold,” as well as the video, and “Viva” turned me off!

  22. Gothic Guera wrote:

    oops I meant to write “Mexican” guy will stand me, because I’m so stubborn. I should make a t-shirt I’m single, but stubborn! (Hey, I have to find a way to pay for college)

  23. Celeste wrote:

    My sister has a thing for white men. She dated a black guy in high school but after that it’s been all tall&white, 2 things that she definetly is not. Our family pretty much just accepted it because thhe guys she dated were educated and generally decent folk. However, the white guy she ended up marrying (and is now divorcing) had not completed college and was an ignorant, unfaithful oaf who resented her siblings because we were much more accomplished than he is. However, when they wanted to get married we all tried to be happy for her even though it gave everyone a sense of impending doom.
    I’ve always been told not to bring home anyone else’s trash (I know, not very nice). I think that element is what really bothered everyone. If you’re going to date outside your race, bring home someone worthwhile. If you have to make the decision to be dealing with all sorts of social ills then you might as well be helping out a less-qualified bachelor from our own community. Is that a bit snobby, probably. My stepdad sent me a check once while I was living with my fiancee and he was worried that my fiancee might steal it because he only has a bachelor’s. My now husband and I still laught about that one.

  24. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    regarding Travis and Gym Class Heros, any songs that celebrate white skin and white women are such a huge turn-off, because we’ve been hearing and seeing this racist propaganda over the past +1,000 years through-out society.

    how about a song that celebrates black skin and black hair and black eyes?????????????????

  25. Longtime lurker wrote:

    Good article Latoya! This struck a bit of a chord with me because I have a brother who this seems to apply to as well. He claims that he looks at all choices but for now is only dating white as that is easier and they fit in as eye candy for his job (it’s a little high powered). I worry though because he has gone through a string of “blonde with no brains” girls and that type is what he constantly points out as hot. It’s also distressing to my other sisters because the message he seems to be sending is he isn’t looking for girls like us even though we’re all bright and beautiful. It’s clear that he’s just not giving black or other minority girls a chance at all. I’ve also had a friend tell me black women were just too much work to date.

    I’m not sure what the motivation is other than a superficial desire to walk around with someone who may be considered universally hot. It would bother me less if the women seemed suited to him, but only one of them has and they broke up. It makes me wonder what they find so compelling that they are willing to forgo excitement and intelligence for hair color and boobs. I think its sad and I hope he grows out of it!

  26. Niki wrote:

    Excellent post! I think maturity (or lack therof) is definitely at play here with Bestboy. Most young guys are very specific about what they want on a very superficial level–a girl who is traditionally “hot” that he can show off to his friends, who doesn’t sweat him, and who can freak the sheets is what constitutes a dream girl for that group. As guys mature, they usually end up wanting women who bring more to the table than just being a living blow-up doll.

    Strangely, I was (and still am not) one of thos black women who felt that black men “belonged” to me. I grew up in a two-parent black household and attended mostly black schools until I got to high school, but I was taught to regard people as individuals. So when I got to high school and developed my first big crush on a white guy, I didn’t feel that it was out of line or violating some code. I’ve never given too much thought into trying to dissect the rationales of people who weren’t in my inner circle, so my attitude is basically “do you”.

  27. Alfred Lopez wrote:

    I can completely relate to your blog. I had a good friend/co-worker that only dated White girls. It was amazing to because Black girls flocked to him, and he would shun them for the “White Prize” as you put it. I broke it down for him the same way you did and he admitted it to a sense. Also the fact he can go what he wants to them for the most part because they are “more submissive” than Black women. I use quotes not to offend anybody.
    People do what they do. Your friend dates what seems to be unworthy women. I think it is just a coincidence they are also White. Help him find a better girl, no matter what race. You said you will be happy with whoever he finds love in, but will you?
    I am multiracial and I have a similar situation as you. I can only date multiracial women. And it goes to a pride and love for myself issue. I love myself and love my look and so forth. So I think the most attractive women are multiracial, especially of the same mix as me. Maybe your bestboy needs to embrace his blackness a little more and he will automatically find more Black girls he is attracted to.

  28. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @DFP -

    I feel hurt, angry and jealous whenever I hear non-white guys praising white blonde women. It makes me so angry inside, I want to smash bottles and windows.

    Yes. Like I said, it is the affirmation of this thing you are not, and while you know you shouldn’t have that reaction, you do.

    @Ron -

    I have some buddies who will only date white women exclusively whether or not they are actually attractive to them. Some of the white women they date are not usually attractive to white men because of weight or other issues.

    Yeah, I’ve seen that. I don’t think Bestboy and I would still be friends if he did that - I would lose my shit. I am still pissed at that comment made by Kristie Alley - just disgusted by it. “I’m fat, so I should just date black men.”

    Good points, particularly the whole perception is reality bit.

    @Shawna - I would hope it comes off well- I sat on this post for six months until I was finally comfortable enough to think about posting it.

    Let me know what you post.

    @Juju - Yes. He has smart women friends (I am not the only one) but this NEVER translates into the women he dates. I enjoy playing armchair psychologist with his love life - particularly with the ideas of race and the madonna/whore complex - but it does pain me.

    @Lisa - Excellent points made, about the whole ideas surrounding that porcelain skin remark and the differences in dating those beyond race vs. anti-racist. If you are interested in sharing your perspective with me, drop me an email.

    @F - Yes, my thoughts as well. That’s how I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t just the white thing that was bothering me - it is this weird idea of impressing your desires on someone. Not that this is an issue exclusive to race, but race pulls in this whole other element.

    And I tell him to grow up all the time.

    @Jasmine - Seriously. I flinch when that part of the song comes on, it gets to me so much. And of course, who offered to loan me their CD? Bestboy.

    @Gothic Guera -

    Many cultures do encourage submissiveness in women. We should explore that.

    I am interested in this part of your comment:

    I find my self attracted to men with dark hair, yet why is it I tend to be flirty and sweet to the blond guys?

    Bestboy does that too. One time, he was explaining to me in great detail about this beautiful South Asian girl he spotted at a party - but he didn’t even try to approach her. And he’s dated SEA girls before. So…hmm….

    And send me a tee, I’ve got a friend who that is perfect for.

    @Celeste - Oh yes, the race and class issue in dating. There’s a fault line we haven’t checked on…

  29. Tim wrote:

    Very well clarified, LP. There’s a startling symmetry there: your friend (black man) seems to exclusively date (ultra)white women, while you (black woman) could never see yourself dating a white man. Cut-out-and-include (and exclude everyone else) vs. cut-out-and-exclude (including everyone else).

    I have to say that the anecdotes that I think are weirdest/most problematic are your “why not a Latina/Indian girl?” interjections. Is it an attempt at a “compromise”? Would this be “more” acceptable than a light-skinned Af-Am woman? Is it that you can sexualize other/exotic brown women in a way that you can’t white men or for that matter white women? (”I think I have a better chance of being in a lesbian relationship than seriously dating a white man.”)

    Playing analyst in blog comments is never really a good idea for anybody — but since you’re posting this in part to sort out your own feelings, I want to note what I see in it.

  30. atlasien wrote:

    There’s some interesting evolutionary biology behind this stuff. Not that it’s primarily biological and “hardwired”, by any means, but it’s there.

    Human beings tend to be sexually attracted to people that look like them, but not too much like them. It’s like a circle inside a circle… if you’re in the innermost circle, it’s too much like incest; if you’re outside the outermost, it’s too foreign.

    Racial hierarchies (AKA the American caste system) cut across these circles and slice them up even more.

    People of color that were raised around white people get a really strange group of sexual messages. White people aren’t experienced as foreign, and people matching their own physical appearance may seem too incestuously close. Sometimes people can consciously flip their own switches, but choose not to; sometimes they try really hard, but can’t.

  31. MEG wrote:

    I find it intriguing that the stereotype of white women being “submissive, sexually adventurous, and easily controlled.” is the same stereotype that white women have about women of other races.

  32. frau sally benz wrote:

    I must say that I agree with a lot of the things you’re saying up there, and I feel you on trying to get to the bottom of why certain things bother you.

    I suppose my problem comes in when people say they only date people from a specific group, no matter what that group is. I understand the convenience of dating somebody from your own culture, but it doesn’t seem much that much better to me to limit yourself to that than it is to never date anybody from your own culture.

    This is particularly personal to me b/c I can’t tell you how many black women I’ve known who “hate” me and my guy b/c I am Latina and he is black and I stole one of their men. I try to hear them out and usually get things like “so many black men are in jail or not good men and you’re taking one of the good ones.” When I finally hit a wall and am at my wit’s end, I usually say something like “well, my options aren’t that much better with Latino men.” Of course, it’s not that simple, but their anger is just so toxic.

  33. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Tim -

    while you (black woman) could never see yourself dating a white man. Cut-out-and-include (and exclude everyone else) vs. cut-out-and-exclude (including everyone else).

    Good phrasing. That is nice summation of how things go.

    I have to say that the anecdotes that I think are weirdest/most problematic are your “why not a Latina/Indian girl?” interjections. Is it an attempt at a “compromise”?

    Nah. I probably should have made that clearer - I base my picks on the types of girls he mentions are attractive or who looked like someone he may have dated. It’s not an “if you aren’t going to date a black girl, I guess a Latina/Desi is good enough” thing, but I could see how you would interpret it that way. Like I said, I do believe in global brown solidarity - if he has bought into a white beauty standard, he is missing all the other beauty that we have. (For the record, I do point out black women and East Asian women to him as well - in those two examples, we were at brunch and those were the people rolling by. While we were at Ikea, he pointed out a blond and I pointed out a tall poised looking black girl. The common factor for him is tall, lean/athletic/slightly curvy build, lots of hair (either straight or curly).)

    Would this be “more” acceptable than a light-skinned Af-Am woman?

    With him, specifically, I want him to stop dating white stereotypes. I don’t care who it is as long as she is not that. Like I said, she could even be white. But more than just that stereotype.

    I generally don’t rank black women by color, being targeted for colorism myself. I was raised to believe that black is black - and while I have definitely been challenged on that belief, this is how I approach things.

    [To clarify, my parents never made any distinctions about skin color between blacks. My mom is on the lighter end, my dad is on the darker, this was never brought up in my family. When I learned about my blackness from my family, I learned that only self-hating blacks wasted their time on such foolish things. Then, I dated a guy who had absorbed those color struck messages from his grandmother and parents - I’ll blog about that another time. So, while I will occasionally discuss skin privilege and perception, that isn’t really how I dice things up in my mind and I find it kind of strange when I have to do it.]

    is it that you can sexualize other/exotic brown women in a way that you can’t white men or for that matter white women? (”I think I have a better chance of being in a lesbian relationship than seriously dating a white man.”)

    Specifically in reference to him, no. I can understand and acknowledge that the women he dates are attractive, especially when put against conventional or traditional standards of beauty.

    So, I can look at people objectively. For example, another one of my friends specifically dates white foreign men (or black foreign men, she has American issues). The last couple I met were foreign white guys. I can acknowledge that they are attractive, but not feel that attractiveness for myself.

    Make sense?

    @ DFP -

    I can think of a few. Black men do make songs about us. So does Jon B.

    @Nikki - I also detect some fear behind the immaturity - if I date a girl who is self-sufficient, she won’t need me; if I date a girl smarter than me, she won’t need me; etc - but that’s a bit far off the race path so I didn’t bring it up.

    @Alfred -

    Help him find a better girl, no matter what race. You said you will be happy with whoever he finds love in, but will you?

    Yeah. Love for my friend trumps my own personal politics, but there is a reason why he keeps coming to me for advice. At the core, I just want him to be happy. And while he is being destructive in his own relationships, he knows that I know him. So, there’s that.

    The blackness angle is interesting because he does have a fairly strong sense of self. (His father is also very pro-black.) And the issue isn’t finding black women attractive, because he does - it is who he ultimately chooses to become involved with.

    @Longtime Lurker -

    It would bother me less if the women seemed suited to him, but only one of them has and they broke up. It makes me wonder what they find so compelling that they are willing to forgo excitement and intelligence for hair color and boobs.

    Exactly. The ill fit chafes me too - the white part is the fucked-up-cherry -on-top.

  34. Eric Grant wrote:

    @ Latoya
    This may sound like a pretty stupid hypothetical question–I’m really trying to get at the beauty standards issues–but this will limit my rambling:

    Do you think you, and women like you, would feel less anger and irritation about black men, and your friend specifically, dating white women if you knew more white men who dated black women, or if you yourself were (even more) consistently hit on by white men? Or would those factors be largely beside the point?

  35. TierList E wrote:

    As a person who has befriended black men and women closer to myself I’m surprised I haven’t had a friend like Bestboy yet. There was maybe a couple that didn’t prefer black women but they’d like other non-white races well enough (mainly Asian). My female friends ranged from “nothing but black men” to everything fine; I’m met a few people who probably only dated white (again I can remotely guarantee that) but I’ve never got past acquaintanceship level with them.

    On a random IR post I remember someone, I think a WoC, saying that it was more hurtful to hear a white/non-black man saying negative things about black women then when black men do. I realized that was true for me as well. I’m not quite sure why- maybe it’s a pot/kettle effect, or maybe while growing up I was ignored/belittled/ rejected by way more white men than black.

  36. Taryne wrote:

    Thanks for posting so honestly.

    Reading about your BB makes me think about White men who also pursue those waify White women without regard to a meaningful social or emotional connection. My brother, a 26 yr-old White guy, has called me in anguish for years about how this or that gorgeous, big boobed, not-much-else-to-offer women has broken his heart, slept with another guy, doesn’t appreciate him for who he is ect. Because my brother is White, there is less impetus to wonder why these women he is dating are always white. But thinking through your post does make me wonder what has motivated him- the women are always under 5’6’’ as well even though he is 6’4”, taller women seem too masculine to him…

    A group of us from HS went to the same college and I remember myriad conversations with my guy friends who were Thai and Indian about why they couldn’t get the interest they wanted from White girls. This was something that they sought after and pondered quite a bit. Even then it was clear that they didn’t want just any white girl, they wanted the sparkling “10”, or at least pretty hot with the emphasis on trampy. I was particularly hurt when they would respond to my advice/comments with, “but you’re not a real girl”. I guess I was just one of the guys.

    This takes things a bit off topic, because I had previously thought about young American guys of various backgrounds aiming for what our society presents as the ultimate in beauty. But you make a fantastic point in that as a White woman, I can sigh and say “whatever, I’m not the type to go to the gym and spend that much time on my self”-as if doing so could propel me to the top :) But WoC do get a different message- that they need not apply.

    I have also wondered if my HS/College buddies were coming from a perspective of children of immigrants, and as such were searching for they way to fit in as Americans, which often gets translated into being White. Is there something else about himself that your BB is working out? Is it the convention of beauty standards? Either of these do come down to how we as a larger society prescribe beauty and worthiness/mainstream-ness/American-ness.

  37. Miz JJ wrote:

    I know and have been friends with a few guys like BB. I attempt to have minimal contact with them because I find it distubing and bad for my own mental health. However, there are a few things I find interesting about men like BB. Usually the women they select (men like BB) have no interest in black people, or black culture. They rarely have any non-white friends. Men like BB usually get emeshed in their lives and that’s it they’re gone. Except when they want to experience black culture (concert, cookout etc). Then it’s time to call up your black friends and hang out. Never with the girlfriend though. If she does come she has screwface and whispers a lot to the dude. Of course they leave early. All that to say I am not into being someone’s cultural girlfriend. I am not into diagnosing your pathology. Hire a psychologist to find out why you are attracted to women who secretly (or not so secretly) dislike people who look like you. I can not coddle you and listen to you say it’s just love, or that you can’t help who you are attracted too. That’s fine, but I can help how I spend time and it can not be around someone who rejects black people either through dating, or by dating someone who is racially insensitive. For me that is not healthy.

  38. Darcy wrote:

    I still have not completely figured it out for myself where this conversation falls in the interracial dating topic, in my opinion. I saw it hinted at a little bit in Latoya’s post, that there are obviously interracial relationships out there that have occurred NOT because one or both persons fetishize the race of the other person. This post seemed mostly about race fetish, about glorifying one race in dating and overlooking all others. Latoya seems to have several problems with Bestboy’s current dating habits (dating a woman for two years only because she cooked at him and was adventurous in the bedroom, for example), and these habits do not strictly fall in the realm of interracial dating. I think a clear distinction should be made between interracial dating that occurs because the person will only date other persons of a certain race (which is not their own) and interracial dating that occurs like any other form of dating, where two people are interested in each other and they happened to be of different races.

  39. untitleme wrote:

    @LaToya
    ~But with this friend, I do know the history. I’ve been there. And as he frequently asks for dating advice, I frequently comment.*

    Here’s what I don’t get, WHY is he asking YOU for dating advice? Are you supposed to be the sympathetic best black friend we see in most of the movies and TV today ..(if we see that at all)? It sounds like you’re supposed to ease him thru all the heartache he’s getting thru these women and even if they weren’t all white, I’d still ask the same question…

  40. frau sally benz wrote:

    I agree with Darcy. I think the race fetish discussion is related to, but separate from, the interracial dating discussion.

  41. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Darcy/frau sally benz -

    So, let me ask you this: how many people do you think would actively admit to being in an interracial relationship because they fetishize their partner?

  42. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @untitle me -

    Because I’ve been his best friend for about a decade. And I generally have pretty good luck with dating, outside of one pretty big mistake.

    And sharing heartache is part of a friendship. He’s there for me as well and was there when I needed him most.

    @ MizJJ -

    Never with the girlfriend though. If she does come she has screwface and whispers a lot to the dude. Of course they leave early.

    You just described the closet racist. The other white girls didn’t behave that way.

    @Taryne -

    Good post. It is very true what you say about seeing parallels within other relationships and beauty standards. And you raise a good point - is it proving some kind of point when you can net the “quintessential American” boy/girl?

  43. Binnie wrote:

    @ Jasmine

    I’m not alone! I want to like Travis from Gym Class Heroes but the video for “Cupid’s Chokehold” turned me off. I showed it to my bf (who’s white) and he noticed how his girlfriends all got progressively lighter in the video… I just like the cupids.

    @ Latoya

    This post is great! You don’t sound like a jerk. You sound concerned and candid. I learned so much when I clicked the links you mentioned too.

  44. Darcy wrote:

    @ Latoya: I agree with your implied statement; I cannot imagine very many people admitting to this. But, I do not think that this disproves my statement. For example, I HAVE come across white men who have admitted to having Asian fetishes. But conversely, I have seen my group of friends go through dating cycles, and most of them have not stuck to dating within one race, whether it is there own or another (and when I refer to “my friends” I am not referring to one race, either). I am white and my boyfriend is black, from Africa. We met in college, were friends for six months before we started dating and have been in a committed relationship for a year. Before him I had dated men who were Asian, white and Latino. Before me he had dated women who were black, Asian and Latina. I use my own relationship because it is the one that I know best, but my friends’ relationships are similar. I give this as an example for my point, which is, despite most people with race fetishes not being able to admit to them, there should be a distinction between that and interracial dating that occurs as naturally as any other form of dating.

  45. TierList E wrote:

    @atlasian

    *sigh* Honestly I really nothing to say about really- it’s just that explanations like that makes me nervous. You may well be right-I’ve heard it before, I just hope you’re not.

    I personally can’t attest to that theory, but that means next to squat because physical attraction in general ends up in the back seat sometimes with my crushes. And who I find physically attractive at first glance jumps all over that place. But, well, everytime I’ve heard something about evolutionary psychology involving sexual behavior it seems targeted against WoC, black women in particular, and protecting the status quo.

  46. Nikita wrote:

    Thank you. Bravo.

    It is funny to me when folks criticize minorities for saying that they enjoy dating their own. Most folks do. As I explained patiently to an associate, most of the folks that I know that are married inter-racially did not go looking for it, it - love - found them and the person happened to be white, Latino, Indian, Native American etc. Their love was not based on the stereotypes, it fought around them, endured and turned into something beautiful that you cannot help but admire.

    Again, thank you for attempting to explain to the rest of the world why we women of color, and specifically for me BLACK women may look and suck our teeth… at times.

  47. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Darcy -

    No, I disagree. That puts interracial dating into a binary where “fetish dating” becomes the bad and “normal dating” becomes the good. But the issues are far more complicated than that - it is not as simple as saying “oh, what I do is good because I love my person and what they do is bad because they objectify.”

    Like most things in life, interracial dating happens because of a mix of factors.

    What influences who we find attractive? Who is considered acceptable to date? When we say date the rainbow, does that mean that you’ve dated one person of every ethnicity to prove your commitment to diversity? What role does your socialization play in deciding who is acceptable to sleep with, who is acceptable to date, and who is acceptable to marry? And how do race (and class) factor into that role? How do you deal with these messages in the online dating realm, where most open minded people will show dating preferences as a/l/w…with something conspicuously missing?

    (See Wendi’s post on CL Personals)

    And even with “fetish” dating, I would have to ask is it really such a terrible thing? How many people do we know that wouldn’t be here if their parents weren’t exoticizing someone?

    Or, perhaps, it is one partner in a relationship keeping their preferences quiet. I know men who didn’t want to admit to their current GFs that they were just one of a long line of Asian girls. He knew what that would sound like. And he honestly didn’t think of it in a fetishized way, just that he finds Asian women immensely attractive. There is no obligation for the women to do anything but fit his standard of beauty - which happens to align with East Asian characteristics. Is that a problem?

    Or how does one measure the differences between motives and results? If an Asian girl wants to date her ideal white man, and finds a white man with an Asian fetish, if both principals in the relationship are happy, does it matter?

    [This is what made it easier to discuss my friends situation. This post would not have appeared if his relationships had ended for nonracialized reasons, or if he did not have a background of dating a diverse group of women or if he did not continue to end up with one type of woman. But because racial factors were present, it involves more analysis.]

    Alex Alvarez posted on her happy interracial relationship a while back, if that is what you are looking for. But when we discuss interracial dating, we are going to probe a lot of angles.

    And we are staying in the gray area.

  48. Darcy wrote:

    @Latoya: One thing that I want to add, and something I should have said from the beginning, is that I commend you for writing this post. Like your other posts, it is well-written, thought-provoking and interesting. The subject I brought up was one of the major thoughts that first came to mind after I read it, which is why I jumped to that.

  49. Darcy wrote:

    @Latoya: All good points. And believe me, I did not bring up my personal example as a, “See! Look how happy we are! There go your theories out the window!” The subject I brought up was triggered in my mind from the beginning of your post, from two points: the header and the first line, “My best friend dates white girls.” This confused me, and it was only until reading through your post that I realized the statement was closer to, “My best friend only dates white girls, skinny, large-chested white girls who are generally vapid and painfully boring.” Yes, I see these two statements as being different. As in my last comment, I commend your post as a whole, I just found that this first sentence did not do the rest of your post justice.

  50. Abu Sinan wrote:

    This whole issue is just so deep and broad. Every race could come up with a similar type post and come at from a million different perspectives.

    I grew up dating only white women. As a white guy in a white area, it was just how things were.

    There were not too many WoC for me to be interested in the schools I attended or around my neighborhood.

    When I got older and traveled more outside of my normal sphere this changed and I felt myself being attracted to women of colour.

    I never dated a WoC, but I did end up marrying one. For me religion became a driving factor, and being a convert to Islam, most of my choices for a spouse were going to always be a WoC, even with all of the cultural issues and family issues that might have caused.

    The women I find attractive now are almost always WoC, usually darker. My wife has become an expert at picking out and pointing out women she think’s I’d like.

    She never thought about marrying a white guy. She always wanted to marry a Palestinian, because amoungst Arabs they are often thought of as being the biggest, most fit. Because of the religion issue, she couldnt date and marrying a white guy was out of bounds, unless she met a white Muslim. There arent many of us out there.

    Then she met me and it really threw her for a loop. She had just never, ever considered the idea or even thought about it.

    Me, I was looking for a lady who knew the religion well and spoke Arabic. That could have included anyone from areas of Africa to the Middle East and Desi girls raised in the Middle East.

    I think for almost every story told about this subject there will be a unique perpective and angle from it. Almost like a finger print in that no two perspectives and experiences are going to be the same.

    @Latoya,

    The post was honest. That is what is lacking SO much in a lot of what I read on-line. You didnt pull any punches…………I’ve got to love that!

  51. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Darcy -

    That is intentional because that is how most of us think about it. It’s kind of like when someone says “I hate white people” when it’s really “I hate white privilege.”

    The phrase “dating a white girl” has kind of become a catchall for all kinds of stereotypes and attributes about a certain relationship. And so by starting the piece this way, and then walking you through my own thought process, we realize that things are rarely as they seem on their face.

  52. coco wrote:

    i don’t mind interracial dating. when i see i-r couples, i try to feel the sistergirlfriend rage, but it doesn’t really bother me.

    however, i think exclusively dating white women is a troubling mindset that can affect men of every race, and that if you live/work and socialize, or are educated, in a predominately white environment, you can fall into that way of thinking.

    in my experience, preppy and suburban types are notorious for this. I blame the vacuous images of preppy life in fashion, courtesy of designers like Abercrombie & Fitch and Ralph Lauren. They give little to no imaginative space to women of color.

    i think it also has to do with being in classes where, somehow, all but 3-4 black students have been strained out, like the honors / AP classes in my Cleveland (East side) suburb. There, the school was 60:40 (black/white) but the college prep track was 10:90 (black/white).

    Not being able to see women of color as viable partners in situations like that is a combination of a lack of discernment and a lack of choices.

    this is mindset is reproduced in Harold and Kumar go to Guantanamo. it’s a movie starring two men of color, but where are the sistas? (as in theirs– or anybody’s — WOC girlfriends)?

    (… i’d even settle for seeing their real sisters).

  53. Darcy wrote:

    @Latoya: Agreed. And I can understand why you chose to start your post with that, even just from a good-journalism standpoint.

    As for my stance, the basis was that the “interracial relationships” topic in itself has many subtopics. I note that you mentioned being aware of other interracial relationships that you did not feel the same way about (as BestBoy and his relationships). From my standpoint and my background, I wanted to be a part of the conversation by adding to that point.

  54. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    Do you think you, and women like you, would feel less anger and irritation about black men, and your friend specifically, dating white women if you knew more white men who dated black women, or if you yourself were (even more) consistently hit on by white men? Or would those factors be largely beside the point?

    That’s NOT really the point here. The fact is that white women has always been celebrated, praised and desired for thousands of years all over the world, while darker women have been pushed over, ignored, and ridiculed.

    LaToya is saying that it hurts to see a black man, her own best friend, is interested in white women and not so with non-white women. She does not have a problem with black men dating white women in general, but what’s the issue here, is a black man who ONLY dates white women.

    It hurts me, too, because it forcibly reminded me of my childhood traumatic feelings when I felt that I was ugly and undesirable as a dark skinned child in school when there were other white, blonde, redhead, brunette girls in my classes who were always fawned over by teachers and parents. Or, in addition to that, white women in movies, magazines and on TV, who were fawned over and desired, too.

    Black men and men of colour who fawn over white women while ignoring women of color, are NOT any better than these assholes.

    It has NOTHING to do with being desired by white men!!!!

  55. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Abu -

    When I got older and traveled more outside of my normal sphere this changed and I felt myself being attracted to women of colour.

    Interesting point about spheres of influence. Many times people do not feel the need to question their dating choices until they are in other areas. (It makes me wonder about expats who only date other expats and never hit locals.)

    Your comment also reminded me of something an old boss said to me. (He didn’t say this in a pervy way.) He was a man from Australia who was very attracted to black women because he had never seen us before. (He did not count aboriginals.)

    See that one is strange to me - is he fetishizing black women or exploring something new? (Hmm, I should also ask Phillip Arthur Moore to contribute on this? He is currently an ex-pat…)

    And the religious angle is really interesting. I have heard some of the issues discussed specifically from a black muslim perspective , but never from that point of view.

    I think for almost every story told about this subject there will be a unique perpective and angle from it. Almost like a finger print in that no two perspectives and experiences are going to be the same.

    Yes, I agree. That is why we are going to take a long time to discuss these issues - everytime we cover something, two more ideas pop up. But I feel like these kind of conversations are not happening, so we will keep hosting them.

    The only real issue is striking a balance between honesty and respect for the experiences of others.

    @DFP - Thanks. I am trying to think of another way to articulate this, but the increased affection of white men does not really factor.

    @Eric - I am trying to find a good example of why this is, and I think the answer is in Joan Morgan’s writing. I’ll get back to you when I get home.

    @Darcy - Gotcha. I’ll make a note to ask some of my friends if it is okay to write about their experiences. One of my friends has a really interesting twist - she dates interracially, but only people who are not American in origin. She was raised here, but thinks our race issues are so fucked up to the point where she can’t feel comfortable dating an American.

    @Coco -

    They give little to no imaginative space to women of color.

    Good phrase.

  56. WestIndianArchie wrote:

    If you’re so concerned about him dating snow flakes, how come you didn’t “bite the bullet”?

    Is there more to this story?

  57. Jennifer wrote:

    This was a very, very well-written post. I commend you for writing on this topic because it is a beyond touchy one, especially for black women if we are honest enough to admit it. I have had plenty of male friends like yours, who have been intelligent, open-minded and even critical of white supremacy but when it came to their dating preferences, they could give Adolf Hitler a run for his money. Or my other favorite, the black men who would date anything and everything BUT a black woman, or they would date a black woman but she had better not look like she could never be mistaken for anything but black. When you see these attitudes taken by black men and in a lot of men in general, it is disturbing. I think, and you touched on this in your post, the trouble is with this notion of blackness as being the epitome of what is undesirable and whiteness (especially THAT kind of whiteness) as being the ideal and all that is WORTH having. I am not surprised that he has dated and does consider all types of women attractive, as many men do. However, what he chooses to date and one day hope to marry (and what will basically be on his arm) as is the case with many men in this country, that type of white woman is what is worth having. I think that is what makes my blood boil. I have been hit on and approached by all types of men but at the end of the day, I knew, and those men knew too (except in the case of a lot of black men that I love dearly and primarily associate with) the women who were worth HAVING where WHITE or certainly not black. Like one poster said earlier, a glorified silver medal. That being said, I don’t think that you can make someone turn off a preference that they have apparently honed for years. And I would really be cautious about advising him to get with someone of color if he doesn’t work out his issues thoroughly or that poor girl is gonna go through hell. I’m going to be honest. I probably wouldn’t date him if I knew all he dated were white women before me because every time I saw a blonde I would be looking over my shoulder and giving him the side eye and probably counting down until the time he left me for a girl like he was used to before. I have to say again that this was a great post and in response to one of the other posts, I think is was eric grant’s (?) about whether black women would be less incensed if white men dated, excuse me OPENLY dated and approached black women: Here’s the thing. It’s all connected meaning that if white women are held up as the standard, white men are not going to chase down the complete opposite. White people, I have observed and not all but in MANY MANY cases, have been the main ones pushing white supremacy…even when they don’t realize it. Case in point (just a little story then I’m out)….I had a good friend in grad school who dated nothing but black men. And not just any black guys either, Black athletes, primarily basketball and football players with the occasional track runner included. She was a good looking girl but she was definitely not the white standard of beauty (curvy body, curly brown hair, Italian). Anyway, at first her dating patterns bothered me because of some of the comments she made about black men being “better” than white men and the fact that all of these guys were athletes also sent up a red flag but I figured I needed to get over my issues and what she did was her business. She would always come to me describing what guy had hit on her (they were always black and almost always an athlete) and tell me about how they thought she was so fine and sexy and describe all of the intimate details of their sex lives. Now I listened cause she was my friend and this is for the most part what I would do in any situation with any other friend. Fast forward to about almost a year into our friendship. She and I are hanging out with some of her friends and co-workers, who are for the most part white, and one of her male co-workers (also white) is coming at me hard. We flirt and later hook up. No big deal, nothing she herself hasn’t done right? So when I tell her about the what happened like she has done with me about a million times before with other black guys she has hooked up with, she gives me the blank stare. Noticing her disinterest I just shrug it off and stop talking about it. Then she asks me if I want to see pictures of the guy’s ex-fiance. To which I reply, “Not really” because what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? Well she does it anyway and low and behold, what does the girl look like? You guessed it….anyway she goes on and on about how attractive and hot this girl is and proceeds to show me picture after picture of said ex-fiance and a bad taste develops in my mouth. And I start to come to some realizations about my friend and how she sees me, herself, and the black guys she “supposedly finds attractive.” Let’s just say I never looked at people’s motives for dating or associating interacially the same again.

  58. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @WestIndianArchie -

    LOL!

    1. Watch the snowflakes remarks.

    2. Because we didn’t have that kind of chemistry. He’s a great friend, we have a lot in common, but see my comment #12 to Eric.

  59. Ailurophile wrote:

    LaToya, this is a thought-provoking post, and I enjoyed reading it. I’m also enjoying following the discussion in the comments. This is why I love Racialicious - lots and lots of things to chew on!

    I’m going to say, with this comment, my white privilege will be showing (rather like my petticoat I suppose). Once upon a time, I was trophy material. Not blonde or busty, but a slender, conventionally pretty, white woman. I’d get the trophy-hunters of all races. And while there’s a lot of privilege afoot here, of being considered attractive and a “prize” in society’s eyes - it made me cynical about men and dating. A man who dates you as a trophy isn’t valuing you as a human being. A real relationship isn’t based around looks or sexual attraction. It’s based upon friendship and a spiritual connection.

    The men who dated me as a trophy soon found out that I am NOT submissive, I am NOT freaky and up for anything, I’m NOT gonna give you a BJ in your car on the freeway, I’m NOT gonna simper by your side at company parties. (I do cook. But I cook because I like to eat good food, not because it will catch me a may-un.)

    Now I’m pushing 40 uphill and backwards, a cancer survivor, scarred and overweight and no longer such a trophy. Would any of my trophy-hunting boyfriends of days gone by have stuck by my side through chemo and surgery and all that fun stuff? Hah. I’d have been dumped in a hot minute for someone less trouble. Trophy-hunters don’t want relationships. They want an animated blow-up doll.

    If there’s an upside to losing my youthful good looks - it weeds out the jerks. If a man is interested in me, I know he’s there for ME and not for a prize.

    And I realize that, because I’m white, I had this opportunity (or something!) to be a “prize” for a little while. Most WoC do not. So I can understand the anger at seeing a desirable black man with a white woman. What does SHE have that I do not?

    I’ve dated IR. I’ve also dated many white guys. I tend to prefer skinny dark-haired men with little wire-framed glasses, so it winds up being mostly white and Asian guys. But if I click on a spiritual level with a man - and he likes cats!!! - it doesn’t really matter what he looks like. I had a massive crush on this overweight Latino man because he was very nice and funny. My take on IR dating is, do you see the RACE or the PERSON? Would you love Joe or Bob or Sam if he was white? or black? or any other race?

    “Best Boy,” btw, is dooming himself to a life of loneliness and frustration if he doesn’t grow the heck up. But you know that. And no-one can change him but him.

  60. atlasien wrote:

    @TierListE, I know exactly what you mean… last week I was in a fracas on the alternate side, arguing against biological determinism. However, saying that evolutionary psychology is one factor (among many) is not the same thing as saying it’s the only factor, or that it’s the dominant factor. I do agree that it can be a slippery slope.

    Saying something “is biological” shouldn’t be used as an kind of excuse or rationalization for nasty social structures. It’s ultimately so broad of a statement as to be meaningless. The fact that we exist at all “is biological”.

    Our biology controls us… but in essentially culturally-neutral ways. Then culture layers on top of that, assigns values, and feeds back into it, even altering biology and forming a messy feedback loop. Some of the most fascinating ideas I’ve ever encountered refuse to use biological explanations for status quo or racist/sexist purposes, and in fact illuminate how the status quo is itself constructed through mystification…. e.g. Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man” or Jared Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel.”

    One of the strangest phenomena I’ve heard about recently is GSA or Genetic Sexual Attraction. When unrelated children are raised together, they develop an incest taboo; conversely, when closely related children are raised apart, sometimes the opposite happens.

    I won’t take the thread any more off-topic in this direction, I’ll just note that race is a concept that often overlaps with the concept of “greater family”… the overlap also depends on varying cultural assumptions about what “race” and “family” mean, anyway.

  61. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Jennifer -

    Good comments.

    I think, and you touched on this in your post, the trouble is with this notion of blackness as being the epitome of what is undesirable and whiteness (especially THAT kind of whiteness) as being the ideal and all that is WORTH having.

    Yes. Don’t even get me started on trying to challenge your own bigoted notions when you have a stereotype all in your face, knocking back shots…

    I do want to mention though that BestBoy’s dating white women is a new thing. Which is why it was so vexing. Because of who I was ten years ago, if he had been solely dating white girls then, I would have viewed him with contempt for being a sell out. We would not be friends today. But he didn’t. And things we based before on personality, then look, and he seemed to enjoy dating a lot of different women. There was almost no rhyme or reason to his choices.

    And today, the hesitation with WoC makes me wonder as well. Now, I’ve seen him at bars where white women have *literally* jumped on his back to get his attention while black women (or other WoC) scarcely give him a glance. So it is a lack of confidence from something?

    I don’t know. But that needs to be emphasized.

  62. JD/ formerly J wrote:

    OMG. I thought I was the only one who noticed that Porcelain skin line in the GCH song….Or the video that went through the stereotypical ‘take-no-crap, hairbraiding black chick’ to the ’sexy but unfaithfu’l Latina and finally ended in the perfect White gf.

  63. Dan wrote:

    I’m trying to feel you but I just can’t.

    It seems that you’re trying to make up BB’s mind for him and are pushing or guilting him into dating black women.

    Did it ever dawn on you that he may simply prefer white women (much like you obviously prefer black men) but is just picking the wrong ones?

    Why are you insistent that the right woman for BB will only be found when he makes more of an effort to date black?

    The first 2/3 of your post are examples of how images, words, anything referencing black men dating white women actually causes you physical discomfort, and then you expect the reader to believe that in a moment of clarity, all of your distaste for black men dating white women disappeared when you thought it was just the type of woman BB dated that bothered you?

    Personally, all I really got out of this story was how you are taking BB’s dating preference personally (and ignoring that you yourself have a dating preference) and are feeling personally rejected as a black woman because your friend prefers to date white.

    You yourself said that in his dating white women, in terms of looking for love ‘I am afraid he’s looking in the wrong place.’ So now are you saying that white women are not worthy of love?

    Signed,
    White man married to Black woman.

    And yes! I am actually in an interracial relationship that is based on love and common interest rather than novelty! Wow! We do exist!

  64. Kaonashi wrote:

    Fantastic article!

    I think you hit it on the head when you said it wasn’t the fact that he dated interracially, but the TYPE of girls he dates that set your teeth on edge. Maybe because that says a lot about who he is as a person, and that’s what you’re uncomfortable about?

    Somehow, I think if these women were the same in character but they were Black, you would have a lot of the same issues with them; not the obvious “White Trophy Woman” ones, but the “WTF, why are you dating that sot of girls over and over again” type of issues.

    So, let me ask you this: how many people do you think would actively admit to being in an interracial relationship because they fetishize their partner?

    OMG, you would be surprised, and not in a good way, lol. People will come right on out and tell you “Hey, I’ve always been attracted to [insert race here] men/woman (or the sister comment “I’ve ALWAYS wanted to date a white/black/Asian/whatever race”) and you are SUPER HOT” like that’s supposed to be a compliment or something. Sometimes they will even get into the reasons WHY they feel that way. Not only that, but it works intra-racially as well.

    Personally, I find it super creepy but it helps with filtering out the fetishy types from people who are interested in you as a person. ~_^

  65. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    It seems that you’re trying to make up BB’s mind for him and are pushing or guilting him into dating black women.

    That’s interesting, when the women I point out to him in the piece are Latina and Southeast Asian. That’s also interesting considering how I discussed the construction of a white woman stereotype, and how I pondered why I didn’t have this issue when he dated other white women with personalities.

    Please go back and reread my piece.

  66. Jennifer wrote:

    Do you mean a lack confidence on the part of your friend in approaching women of color or lack of confidence on the part of women of color who do not respond to your friend (or jump across the bar to get next to him)? Because, I hope this doesn’t make anyone cringe, but I can usually tell who likes what and I am pretty sure most women are like that too. That is to say that even if your friend is not wearing the “blondes only” t-shirt, he is still giving off a vibe. I don’t know what it is but I’ve noticed that people generally attract what they like even if they are not putting it out there.

  67. Anonymous wrote:

    i’m always amazed how atwitter this topic makes me. and i have been known to joked that i’ve worked my way through the whole UN! i’ve been thinking about the intersections between being a fetish object and interracial dating as it applies to my own history/thinking…

    i tend to hang out in places where there are few african-americans at my educational level (high school teacher in the pnw. current academic). as an unambiguously black woman (6′, dark complected, short natural), who dates out i understand where fetishization and concern over i-r overlap. the intersection on the venn diagram is all about intent/internalized messages for me.
    we are all conditioned to love and represent ourselves through that love. and who and how we love/sex becomes part of our identity, especially in the commercial culture of the united states. our models for ‘normal’ and ‘acceptable’ are set by the color baby on the congrats card! :0)
    it’s a tough wrestle. i personally, never, ever date white guys who exclusively date african-american women - we are interchangeable brown objects, and i won’t allow that. nor do i find that attractive. i know some women who find that certainty of attraction safe and appealing. the difference is intent - and my life/culture/melanin is not an artifact to be collected. conversely, i am also guilty of looking at bm/ww interracial couples when they appear in my peer group. in part because i wonder what their story is, but also because i seldom see middle class folks do it!

    i also add to eric - please! i cannot tell you the last time a white man was brave (secure - see my comment above) enough to hit on me! and let me assure you that middle class men have a lot to lose by doing so! i think successful interracial dating identity depends upon a secure ego and sense of self. that is what many have said is missing in the best friend’s dating.

    so. another great post that has made me think when i really should be working! thanks.
    :0)
    -kerrita k.

  68. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Kaonashi -

    Yep, I would - it just wouldn’t be a racial issue. It would be a “stop dating trifling women!” issue. Which, arguably, it still is. Maybe it’s a “stop being stereotypical and dating trifling women issue.”

    @Jennifer - on his part.

    And here’s my thing about the signals. Yup, he does give off some with how he dresses (cowboy boots, corduroy blazers, Vans, too tight tees and Aviators are all wardrobe stapes - I say he’s the only hipster in DC).

    BUT

    That’s not really a hindrance. My friends are into some crazy stuff, and I am always in the thick of unconventional WoCs. I am going to geek out this weekend with five of us down at an anime convention. And we all have friends who are rocker girls, (and one who dresses gothi-loli), vegans, neo-bohemians, whatever you can think of that would be considered outside of the norm - so it’s not necessarily a lack of people like him.

    As I said before, I don’t know what it is.

  69. Anonymous wrote:

    or is your friend using his male privilege to gain a submissive partner? which is still kinda gross…

  70. Ali wrote:

    Lauren over at Stereohyped took an approach to this topic that really made me challenge my position and thinking. The question she posited was essentially, “why would you want someone who doesn’t want you?” As I began thinking about that question I wondered what motivated me to fight for the attention of someone who is not interested (without having to guilt themselves into feeling the attraction) in me in the first place. I definitely consider myself “pro Brown” (brown meaning POC). I’m also interested in global Brown/Black awareness but even with that in mind it still doesn’t make sense to put myself through this kind of agony for someone who’s issues with my phenotype and features are probably deeply personal. That seems to be the case Latoya points out with regard to Bestboy. His dating practices seem to be more a reflection of his own mind at work and not any real flaw on the part of the women he’s rejecting. It took a while but I have finally and comfortably come to a place where every black man I pass in the street who is not with a black woman does not feel like a personal afront to me. I guess there are still certain situations where I would question it, especially within certain artists communities or social circles but I’m pretty much over strangers in the street.

    @cosmicsistren - SHUT UP about Dao-Yi Chow. That is my MAN! Girl, lord help him if I ever catch his ass in a dark alley! I watched that stupid Sean Jean special that mtv aired like 500 times online just to stare at his beautiful face! That said, let me know if you want to start a D-YC fan club or something because I’m totally down.

  71. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Ali -

    I’m pretty much over strangers in the street.

    Yup, me too, but this is my homie. Oh, and I shouldn’t have given the impression that he is some perfect angel in a relationship (but most of y’all picked up on that) because he isn’t.

    Lauren’s posed question is important because again, on an *individual* level you have to find the person who is right for you. You don’t need to overturn the whole fucked up system, just find the guy who didn’t buy into it. But on a *societal* level, it is important because these patterns keep repeating, generation after generation.

    Oh, and you reminded me of something with this line:

    I have finally and comfortably come to a place where every black man I pass in the street who is not with a black woman does not feel like a personal afront to me.

    It is much easier for me to speak on these issues as a woman in a committed relationship, than as a single black woman. I always find it interesting how