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“[A] lot of CBC members are in fact in favor of banning menthol, many because of the fact that it disproportionately kills black people.”
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“According to a report by activist site Toward Freedom, for the past decade the search for a rare metal necessary in the manufacturing of Sony’s Playstation 2 game console has fueled a brutal conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo.”
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“Lucy Liu will give voice to Sio, a beautiful, seductive and sadistic mastermind plotting to destroy Afro Samurai.”
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“For the past year, I have researched, read and conducted several interviews on this topic for the “Black in America” series. Producing a segment on the low marriage rates in black America was not without its challenges.”
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Phil Deeze wrote:
In the “Is Marriage for White People” piece, is it possible that the reason that many black women never marry, per the statistics, that most people in the U.S. have to wait later to get married due to the economy i.e. it’s MUCH harder to finish your education and earn enough to service your student debt AND properly support a wife and family or contribute heavily to that endeavor? That’s one factor that I think needs to be discussed.
As women (race non-specific) wait for that perfect man with the body like Tyson Beckford, a love for Italian wine, the funds to cover expensive trips to Europe, and the sexual prowess of Lexington Steele, every year colleges in this country are churning out thousands of eligible black bachelorettes into the dating scene and the career women have to compete with the next crop of Michelle Obamas and that ain’t easy.
If the figures are correct and there’s a dearth of good black men for black women to marry i.e. a buyer’s market, I think the income and wealth figures of college educated black men (never in jail, heterosexual) are pretty favorable, but maybe not towards the entire support of a wife and family on one income. But if you filter out all the men that women find unattractive, not tall enough, bad habits, etc. that truly thins out the field of what a woman will find TRULY acceptable as a spouse.
Also, I think the statistic about marriage for women past the age of 30 was talked about maybe 10 or 15 years ago in a Time magazine article, and it caused some anxiety. I think that the stats didn’t exactly bear that out. Yes, a lot of women (race non-specific) didn’t get married, but a LOT more actually did end up finding a suitable mate and a marriage did occur. I’ll look for the link for you guys.
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 10:23 am ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:
Here’s a study from the early 20th century (sample size of 34,000 marriages) about the demographics of marriage:
http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/eugenics/static/images/63.html
In this study, it found women under the age of 25 were married at a 60% clip, one-sixth of the women in the study were married before their 21st birthday.
Juxtapose that with today’s marriage stats culled from one study on the topic:
http://www.jointcenter.org/DB/factsheet/marital.htm
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 10:32 am ¶
jvansteppes wrote:
She compares the issue among blacks and whites of women being more educated than their potential hetero partners but I find that statistic easily twisted in terms of what men and women actually earn.
In my home province white women make up the majority of university educated people yet men overwhelmingly make much higher wages which makes them more comfortable being with partners who have more schooling than they do. Something tells me this trend does not cross over for black men who don’t have the same privileged access to higher wages that white men do even when they lack education.
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 3:51 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:
Oops, I meant to say ‘white men overwhelmingly make much higher wages’, because of course the high wage labor I’m talking about is much harder for men of color to break into.
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 3:53 pm ¶
Black Canseco wrote:
Great… no good black men left.
I been hearing that one my whole life. And if it weren’t for the fact that I’m a Black man, it might be kinda funny or at least irrelevant.
Menthol cigarettes. oh what will i do now?
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 4:18 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:
I think it’s misguided to blame women for low marriage rates in the black (or any other) community. Men make marriage decisions, too. Rather than blaming black women for being fussy or too independent or what have you, it would be better to look at how BOTH men and women contribute to this situation.
I also wonder about marriage rates for “out” gays and lesbians of color. In states that allow gays to marry, is marriage also for white people, for same-sex couples?
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 8:23 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
Phil Deeze:
>As women (race non-specific) wait for that perfect man with the body like Tyson Beckford, a love for Italian wine, the funds to cover expensive trips to Europe, and the sexual prowess of Lexington Steele, every year colleges in this country are churning out thousands of eligible black bachelorettes into the dating scene and the career women have to compete with the next crop of Michelle Obamas and that ain’t easy.
You paint a pretty horrible portrait of the typical “black woman.” Damn, man, according to you we are lazy, not self-sufficient, and insanely waiting for some physical and economic perfect man to take us away.
*looks around at black women in her life and herself*
Yeah, my world? Not so much. We (the straight or at least bi ones, anyway, and yay! for heteronormativity! (not)) have jobs, before, during, and after marriages. We have debts, we deal with the crap life throws at us and the shitty decisions we or others we love make, and we keep keeping on.
>Also, I think the statistic about marriage for women past the age of 30 was talked about maybe 10 or 15 years ago in a Time magazine article,
I’ve always wondered about that statistic – how many women in general after age 30 may have kids, a divorce, etc. that can make some men NOT want to marry “their past,” and ditto for men of that same age bracket? That can narrow a dating pool faster than waiting for some mythical fantasy poster boy.
Posted 26 Jul 2008 at 10:07 pm ¶
browne wrote:
“is marriage also for white people, for same-sex couples?” aioruphile
If you looked at the people in the pictures about same-sex marriage you would sure think it does.
Methols, well they might as well ban guns too, because that also kills alot of black people and lets throw fastfood in there too. I don’t know about the Methol thing something about it doesn’t smell right and for anyone who smokes Menthols, I’d like to know why right now why? Minty tobacco that just takes the disgusting habit of smoking just that more disgusting.
And I’m a smoker, its horrible I know, but I’m an addict, its disgusting I quit for three years, but the last year, the economy you know it’s not my fault
Browne
Posted 27 Jul 2008 at 9:57 pm ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:
@ Lyonside:
Not blaming ALL black women for bad choices in dating/selecting suitable men for marriage. A post on a blog can’t encompass every single caveat.
My original post was three times as long, and I had a nice line in there about all us men wanting Halle Berry, settling for Gabrielle Union and then we get arrested and marry some guy named T-Bone when we’re in the joint.
The bleak picture painted in the CNN article was specifically from the perspective of the black female, correct? It’s easy to pounce on my post that didn’t (again) point out that black men are in jail, or on the down-low, or don’t make enough money to support a spouse, etc., but we’ve got Shelby Steele, Jason Whitlock and folks of that ilk saying it, so I didn’t think I needed to repeat that part of Ms. Allen’s argument is that there aren’t enough black men suitable to marry women like her. That’s being even more presumptuous than any couple of forgotten lines in a blog post.
Isn’t there statistical data that shows that women children are outnumbering male children. Does that mean that there could be a statistical dearth of men to begin with that could also factor into more and more women never getting married?
I’m not BLAMING the author’s problems finding a suitable black man to marry on her, merely pointing out that many people are deferring marriage (race non-specific) in order to be able to afford the institution of marriage and raising a family. The type of trappings that upper middle-class society (as the author is a part of) are not cheap. Unless you’re able to find a man that’s independently wealthy BEFORE he graduates from college, all of us will likely have to defer starting families until we’re able to afford having them. That’s the reality here.
Posted 28 Jul 2008 at 1:32 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>I also wonder about marriage rates for “out” gays and lesbians of color. In states that allow gays to marry, is marriage also for white people, for same-sex couples?
If one were to do a study of samesex partnerships by race, I don’t think they could limit it to the states with domestic partnerships and equal marriage (too few to be sociologically relevant… YET
But even if you define the study to look at long term partnerships regardless of legality, there would be additional factors: namably, location and related level of marginalization, probably trumping social and cultural factors. People are less likely to form a permanent relationships when under unsupportive conditions, especially when the state or region makes it hard to do anything usually associated with healthy stable relationships: like being able to have joint property, share health benefits, have secure employment without fear of dismissal, raise kids if desired.
And I think I just talked myself back into saying that although statistically small, a study of gay blacks and marriage/partnership would have to be limited to states that provide benefits similar to marriage, in order to make any correlation between straight black marriage rates and gay black marriage/parnership rates.
Thing is, it’s still not a good comparison. You’ve got relatively high rates of IRs in ethnically diverse gay communities, while the CNN special on black women (the only one I saw) seemed to be saying that marriage w/in race was the universal first choice, and IRs were second place (don’t get me started on that one).
Also, one of the things that tips many committed straight couples into marriage is the benefits – and the federal ones are much bigger than the state ones; until those are extended to gay couples, even in states with marriage equality it’s not fair to compare them.
I mean, I know 4 het couples who got married essentially for the benefits. Two couples were in a 15+ year relationship, and it was sheerly for the tax/S.S./property benefits. One couple went the JOP route a year earlier than intended, when the woman was fighting cancer to make sure that her fiance’/husband would have visitation, and be able to deal with disability payments, etc. Another couple moved up their official wedding by 6 months to take advantage of tax laws – the “real” wedding for family and friends will be next year. All four couples are committed and long-term and cohabiting and sharing everything joint and all that good stuff. Only one couple had a history of divorce (both of them, in that case, also the only ones with kids). For the others, this was their first marrage.
Posted 28 Jul 2008 at 2:19 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
I mean, I know 4 het couples who got married essentially for the benefits. Two couples were in a 15+ year relationship, and it was sheerly for the tax/S.S./property benefits. One couple went the JOP route a year earlier than intended, when the woman was fighting cancer to make sure that her fiance’/husband would have visitation, and be able to deal with disability payments, etc. Another couple moved up their official wedding by 6 months to take advantage of tax laws – the “real” wedding for family and friends will be next year. All four couples are committed and long-term and cohabiting and sharing everything joint and all that good stuff. Only one couple had a history of divorce (both of them, in that case, also the only ones with kids). For the others, this was their first marrage.
I love the realness you brought right here.
Posted 28 Jul 2008 at 8:47 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>A post on a blog can’t encompass every single caveat.
True. But repeating unrealistic stereotypes (unless you’re trying to be ironic and I missed it?) isn’t that helpful.
>My original post was three times as long, and I had a nice line in there about all us men wanting Halle Berry, settling for Gabrielle Union
Yay, more stereotypes? Besides, your original comment talks about men and black men interchangeably (same as women).
Here’s a clue: my family and friends, my coworkers, and pretty much anyone I associate with look for other things in a spouse than a college diploma and a bankroll. Even so, my husband makes MORE than me, and I’m the one who went to college.
>and then we get arrested and marry some guy named T-Bone when we’re in the joint.
Prison rape = NOT AT ALL FUNNY. Please to cease and desist from any and all rape jokes.
>The bleak picture painted in the CNN article was specifically from the perspective of the black female, correct?
The associated CNN specials re: “Black in America” had segments on black women and black men. The black woman special was IMO superficial and generalized and did not get into root causes; the black men special was so annoying I turned the damn thing off.
>Isn’t there statistical data that shows that women children are outnumbering male children.
Not by birthrates. Global human birthrates stay about stable, and I thought the US fell well within those parameters, with birthrates for girls only slightly higher (possibly due to a combination of Y-chromosome-related genetic disorders and higher rate of potential incompatability with the mother). Although if you’re talking SURVIVORSHIP, that’s a whole ‘nother issue, boys being somewhat more likely to die in our core US culture from accidental causes, homicide, etc. before adulthood and (presumedly) reproduction.
>Does that mean that there could be a statistical dearth of men to begin with that could also factor into more and more women never getting married?
No – we’re not mainland China under the 1-child rule, where in many areas there is a resultant severe disparity between the number of men seeking mates (high) and the number of available women (low). Any pressures like that are generally socially created, not biological. If there was that much disparity in the US, we would have heard about it by now.
>many people are deferring marriage (race non-specific) in order to be able to afford the institution of marriage and raising a family.
Agreed. And as I said before, there does not seem to be much accounting for divorce rates. I mean, how many people married at 21 in today’s culture will still be married in 25 years?
Posted 28 Jul 2008 at 9:53 am ¶
Fiqah wrote:
@ Phil Deeze: “Settling” for Gabrielle Union?
Huh.
You know what? I don’t wanna even today.
Posted 28 Jul 2008 at 12:04 pm ¶
Versai wrote:
Last week, Wendy Williams had Colio on her tv show and during the interview he mentioned having 6 kids by 3 or 4 different women. I think he had only married one of them–and it wasn’t a happy marriage. Wendy gave him the “Aunt Esther” evil eye and he mentioned how when he was growing up, most of the men in his life downplayed marriage/fatherhood. A man was supposed to have several women–but not get bogged down with a wife.
Now, while I don’t think all black men think or were raised this way, it did remind me that when it comes to marriage today–we usually don’t hear from the would-be husbands. Also, the emphasis always seems to be on today and not on how attitudes of black women and men of older generations have led up to where we are today.
Posted 28 Jul 2008 at 10:22 pm ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:
@Lyonside,
I was being ironic, at points, and you whiffed on a swinging strike three.
You need to lighten up. It’s obvious that this is a volatile topic, and it makes you angry discussing it rationally.
You jumped on me for “bashing” women’s choices. So I “bashed” some sterotypes of men for you and you still had a problem with it.
Here’s a generalization for you: “Puppies are cute and fuzzy.” Now go get angry about that one. And runteldat.
Posted 29 Jul 2008 at 7:24 pm ¶